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Thread: Islam and Christianity: Is it the same God?

  1. #31
    (╯□)╯︵ ǝpıɔoıɔos resolve's Avatar
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    Cullion I edited my comment. You may like to read it.
    "It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." - Jiddu Krishnamurti

  2. #32
    If I die before I wake.. Cullion's Avatar
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    Trinitarian Christianity is the belief that there's one God, and that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are all representations or components of it/him.

    Arian Christians and Muslims believe that Jesus was created by the divine for prophecy, messiahood and was made able to perform miracles no other prophet could (e.g. resurrection of the dead), but was not actually God. They see him as a messenger created by him. Note the emphasis on 'created'. God is the causeless cause. Anything created by God is not God. Arians and Muslims both saw Jesus as a created being.

    Arian Christians are just not trinitarians in exactly the same way Muslims are not trinitarians. They are not 'less' trinitarian. They just aren't trinitarians. Because Jesus isn't God to them. When Jesus isn't God, there's no trinity.

    This is why Muslims regard trinitarian Christians as having a kind of muddled, impure take on monotheism. For them it's simple. God is God. There's one. They revere Christ as a messenger of God.
    Last edited by Cullion; 21st February 15 at 01:54 PM.
    ONE SOUL AT A TIME

    Quote Originally Posted by Danno
    i got nothing, you win again.
    Quote Originally Posted by resolve
    I trust God more than I trust you. And that will never change. I've always viewed you as kind of a snake. No biblical connotations need apply, just the regular ones. You're wise. You're really intelligent. But you're also conniving and have this way of getting what you want when you want it. The sickness I was talking about was your propensity to kind of reach in and grasp on to something to define someone here. You harangue them about it and manipulate it in to conversations. You do that with every single poster here. You do this until they see things your way. The "correct way". It's vile.

  3. #33
    (╯□)╯︵ ǝpıɔoıɔos resolve's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cullion View Post
    Trinitarian Christianity is the belief that there's one God, and that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are all representations or components of it/him.
    Yes but you are forgetting one VERY IMPORTANT thing that makes it different. Co-equal.

    Arian christians believed that Jesus was not co-equal with the Father, but still divine.

    This is why people literally fought wars over these stupid definitions back in the day.
    Last edited by resolve; 24th February 15 at 09:15 PM.
    "It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." - Jiddu Krishnamurti

  4. #34
    (╯□)╯︵ ǝpıɔoıɔos resolve's Avatar
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    I hope you understand this:

    The Jews proposed a supreme God who created by His word. It was an idea of a mediating "Word or Wisdom - the Word which is pronounced, the Wisdom which is created - whereby the Father communicated Himself to man and took possession of him."


    The Greeks could not see how a finite and changeable world could come from an eternal and changeless God. They proposed the idea of a"mediating Intelligence or even Word, a first emanation of the first principle which reduced the distance between God and the world"


    The primitive Church had to "reconcile the notions they had inherited from Judaism with those they had derived from philosophy. Jew and Greek had to meet in Christ. They had to find an answer that would agree with the revelation they had received from Christ as recorded in the scriptures."


    This struggle for a reconciliation of thought reached its climax with the Arian controversy. The Church responded with the First Ecumenical Council of Nicaea that brought together Scriptural and philosophical thought to explain the Trinity. The Council did triumph over Arianism but only after fifty years of bitter battling. Imperial support and confusion in theological terminology were the principal reasons for such a long drawn out battle as we will see.


    With this background Arius struggled with the question of the Trinity. His teaching in Alexandria was the following: "Personal distinctions were not eternally present within the nature of God. . . the Godhead Himself was responsible for them. . . Identifying the eternal Godhead with the Father and regarding the Logos ('Logos' is simply a Greek word for 'word') as no more than a power or quality of the Father, he said that before time began the Father had created the Son by the power of the Word to be His agent in creation.


    The Son was not therefore to be identified with the Godhead, He was only God in a derivative sense, and since there was once when he did not exist He could not be eternal. Arius stressed the subordination of the Logos to such an extent as to affirm His creaturehood, to deny His eternity and to assert His capacity for change and suffering."


    This teaching of Arius "drove the distinctions outside the Deity and thus destroyed the Trinity. It meant solving the difficulty of the One and the Many by proposing a theory of one Supreme Being and two inferior deities."

    Arianism was essentially polytheism/monolatrism, in a very strange and roundabout way, with regard to the trinity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. All divine, sharing the same nature, but not sharing the same essence... homoousios and homoiousios... thus the Son and Spirit are lesser than the Father. This is why it was condemned as heresy by the council of Nicea.

    Guitton, Jean. 1965. Great Heresies and Church Councils. New York: Harper and Row.


    Ward D.D., Bishop J.W.C. 1955. The Four Great Heresies. London: A.R. Mowbray and Co. Limited


    The New Catholic Encyclopedia. 1967. New York: McGraw-Hill. Book Co. Vol. 8. St. Lucian of Antioch, by P. W. Harkins.
    Last edited by resolve; 24th February 15 at 09:30 PM.
    "It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." - Jiddu Krishnamurti

  5. #35
    (╯□)╯︵ ǝpıɔoıɔos resolve's Avatar
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    BTW, it wasn't the Arians the Muslims had contacts with/conquered when they rose to power and formed their opinions of Christianity via the Mohammad.

    It was the Orthodox and Monophysite Egyptian, Arabic, Syrian, Asian, African, and Imperial churches.

    Arianism survived mostly in Germanic countries until it phased out over time before it had a slight resurgance with the Protestant/Reformation movements before dying out again.


    The closest thing you'll find to Arianism today is probably Mormon teaching (who are fully Polytheist btw) who say that the Father Son and Holy Spirit are completely separate gods and its offshoot the Church of Jesus Christ (Bickertonite) who hold the more Arian view that the Father and Son share the same being but not the same essence in that the Son is lesser than the Father.
    Last edited by resolve; 24th February 15 at 10:25 PM.
    "It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." - Jiddu Krishnamurti

  6. #36


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    None of this matters. It is all bunk.

    "NO, HEFTY SMURF WAS THE TRUE LEADER OF THE LITTLE PEOPLE"

    "NO, ALTHOUGH MANY PEOPLE WOULD THINK PAPA SMURF IT WAS ACTUALLY SMURFETTE, SHE RULED WITH HER VAGINA"

    "BUT EPISODE 3 CLEARLY STATES THAT..."

    "THAT WAS AN ALLEGORY!!! IT WAS LAID OUT LITERALLY IN EPISODE 10!!!!!"
    Last edited by NoBowie; 25th February 15 at 09:31 AM.
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  7. #37
    not long for this world nihilist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by resolve View Post
    ...people literally fought wars over these stupid definitions back in the day.
    Ultimate truth is arrived at by whoever has the strongest army.
    AMEN.

  8. #38
    If I die before I wake.. Cullion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by resolve View Post

    Arian christians believed that Jesus was not co-equal with the Father, but still divine.
    Only in the same way that Muslims do.
    ONE SOUL AT A TIME

    Quote Originally Posted by Danno
    i got nothing, you win again.
    Quote Originally Posted by resolve
    I trust God more than I trust you. And that will never change. I've always viewed you as kind of a snake. No biblical connotations need apply, just the regular ones. You're wise. You're really intelligent. But you're also conniving and have this way of getting what you want when you want it. The sickness I was talking about was your propensity to kind of reach in and grasp on to something to define someone here. You harangue them about it and manipulate it in to conversations. You do that with every single poster here. You do this until they see things your way. The "correct way". It's vile.

  9. #39
    (╯□)╯︵ ǝpıɔoıɔos resolve's Avatar
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    Wrong again.

    Please read what I posted and try to understand it.

    Simply reiterating what you said over and over as fact when you have no actual backing for it aside from some historically and theologically inaccurate statements isn't doing anything to prove to me you know what you are talking about on this.
    "It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." - Jiddu Krishnamurti

  10. #40
    If I die before I wake.. Cullion's Avatar
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    I read what you posted. Arius wasn't a trinitarian. He thought Christ was a created being who performed miracles at God's grant. That's what Muslims think too. Your quote claims that Arius defined Christ as another deity though, and that isn't true. Not any more than Gabriel is a deity.
    Last edited by Cullion; 27th February 15 at 03:56 AM.
    ONE SOUL AT A TIME

    Quote Originally Posted by Danno
    i got nothing, you win again.
    Quote Originally Posted by resolve
    I trust God more than I trust you. And that will never change. I've always viewed you as kind of a snake. No biblical connotations need apply, just the regular ones. You're wise. You're really intelligent. But you're also conniving and have this way of getting what you want when you want it. The sickness I was talking about was your propensity to kind of reach in and grasp on to something to define someone here. You harangue them about it and manipulate it in to conversations. You do that with every single poster here. You do this until they see things your way. The "correct way". It's vile.

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