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Thread: Islam and Christianity: Is it the same God?

  1. #21
    If I die before I wake.. Cullion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Molestulo View Post
    I read somewhere that there is no Lucifer and fall of angels in the original masoretic texts, but was the result of mistranslation.

    Is that correct?
    I don't know about provenance of the Lucifer story. There are references to Angels kind of rebelling against God's rules and mating with human women to produce The Nephilim, in the old testament (Gensis and Numbers, expanding on more in the apocryphal Book of Enoch). Judaism as I understand it has the concept of Satan/the adversary, but AIUI they also see him as working for God to vex and test mankind's moral character. A Satan character also seems to pop up several times in the Hebrew old testament

    e.g.

    http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt2701.htm

    But I don't know if this is the same character as 'Lucifer the rebel angel' that the Christian church often teaches about.

    Purgatory is definitely a roman catholic invention to try and resolve the injustice of eternal punishment for finite sin (she's going to fry in lava forever because she slept with her sister's husband once ?).
    Last edited by Cullion; 18th February 15 at 08:05 AM.
    ONE SOUL AT A TIME

    Quote Originally Posted by Danno
    i got nothing, you win again.
    Quote Originally Posted by resolve
    I trust God more than I trust you. And that will never change. I've always viewed you as kind of a snake. No biblical connotations need apply, just the regular ones. You're wise. You're really intelligent. But you're also conniving and have this way of getting what you want when you want it. The sickness I was talking about was your propensity to kind of reach in and grasp on to something to define someone here. You harangue them about it and manipulate it in to conversations. You do that with every single poster here. You do this until they see things your way. The "correct way". It's vile.

  2. #22
    (╯□)╯︵ ǝpıɔoıɔos resolve's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cullion View Post
    Islam is much closer to Arian (non-trinitarian) Christianity which saw Jesus as a human messenger rather than God himself.
    Cullion that is not what Arians believed or what Arius taught...

    Arius taught that Jesus was lesser than the Father rather than co-equal which is what riled up the people in the councils to call him a heretic.

    The people who eventually followed his teachings ended up becoming firmly entrenched in the Visigoths and Vandals that sacked Rome. They believed that Jesus received His divinity at a certain time and was also a created being therefore not co-equal with God the Father or the Holy Spirit sent after. They were trinitarian, just not the same at all as Orthodoxy.
    "It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." - Jiddu Krishnamurti

  3. #23
    If I die before I wake.. Cullion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by resolve View Post
    Cullion that is not what Arians believed or what Arius taught...

    Arius taught that Jesus was lesser than the Father rather than co-equal which is what riled up the people in the councils to call him a heretic.

    The people who eventually followed his teachings ended up becoming firmly entrenched in the Visigoths and Vandals that sacked Rome. They believed that Jesus received His divinity at a certain time and was also a created being therefore not co-equal with God the Father or the Holy Spirit sent after. They were trinitarian, just not the same at all as Orthodoxy.
    If they believed that Jesus was created and not equal to the father, they weren't trinitarians. Arians did not believe that Jesus was God.

    Muslims also believe that Jesus was a created being (born of a virgin) who performed miracles, who wasn't co-equal with God the Father.
    Last edited by Cullion; 19th February 15 at 03:34 AM.
    ONE SOUL AT A TIME

    Quote Originally Posted by Danno
    i got nothing, you win again.
    Quote Originally Posted by resolve
    I trust God more than I trust you. And that will never change. I've always viewed you as kind of a snake. No biblical connotations need apply, just the regular ones. You're wise. You're really intelligent. But you're also conniving and have this way of getting what you want when you want it. The sickness I was talking about was your propensity to kind of reach in and grasp on to something to define someone here. You harangue them about it and manipulate it in to conversations. You do that with every single poster here. You do this until they see things your way. The "correct way". It's vile.

  4. #24
    (╯□)╯︵ ǝpıɔoıɔos resolve's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cullion View Post
    If they believed that Jesus was created and not equal to the father, they weren't trinitarians. Arians did not believe that Jesus was God.
    Wrong. They were trinitarian in that they believed that Jesus participated in Divinity, but to a lesser extent. This is what ticked off the orthodox so much so that they declared it heretical as in polytheistic.

    What Arius actually taught was that the Logos was a divine being created by and thus separate from God the Father before the beginning of time but (hint) still divine.

    Trinitarian in the belief of a triune godhead but not in an equal trinity. There is a difference and it is significant. Don't let wiki be your guide on this.

    What later on became Orthodox groups declared this heresy, nontrinitarian, and smacking of polytheism after a significant warping of his teachings to help vilify him further.

    Even that isn't the same as Islam as you are suggesting.
    Last edited by resolve; 19th February 15 at 07:43 PM.
    "It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." - Jiddu Krishnamurti

  5. #25
    If I die before I wake.. Cullion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arianism
    Arianism is the nontrinitarian, heterodoxical teaching, first attributed to Arius (c. AD 250–336), a Christian presbyter in Alexandria, Egypt, concerning the relationship of God the Father to the Son of God, Jesus Christ. All mainstream branches of Christianity consider the teaching to be heretical. Arius asserted that the Son of God was a subordinate entity to God the Father.
    That's what Muslims think, too. A 'divine being' that isn't God, isn't part of the Christian trinity. Unless you are a polytheist?

    Muslims attribute additional miracles to Christ, like being able to breath life into a bird made of clay so it flew out of his hand. They believe he was created by direct act of God with who brought him into being by just saying 'Be!'. These are the attributes of a divine being.. but as a created being Christ cannot be God.
    Last edited by Cullion; 20th February 15 at 03:15 AM.
    ONE SOUL AT A TIME

    Quote Originally Posted by Danno
    i got nothing, you win again.
    Quote Originally Posted by resolve
    I trust God more than I trust you. And that will never change. I've always viewed you as kind of a snake. No biblical connotations need apply, just the regular ones. You're wise. You're really intelligent. But you're also conniving and have this way of getting what you want when you want it. The sickness I was talking about was your propensity to kind of reach in and grasp on to something to define someone here. You harangue them about it and manipulate it in to conversations. You do that with every single poster here. You do this until they see things your way. The "correct way". It's vile.

  6. #26
    (╯□)╯︵ ǝpıɔoıɔos resolve's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cullion View Post
    That's what Muslims think, too. A 'divine being' that isn't God, isn't part of the Christian trinity.
    No Cullion. They believe he was simply a man, period. A man born of a virgin, which was the miracle to signal that he was a prophet, but a prophet no greater than any other prophet and no claims to divinity. At all.


    Unless you are a polytheist?
    What the hell does discussing Arianism, Islam, or historical understandings of the trinity have to do with my personal beliefs?
    Last edited by resolve; 20th February 15 at 07:08 PM.
    "It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." - Jiddu Krishnamurti

  7. #27
    If I die before I wake.. Cullion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by resolve View Post
    No Cullion. They believe he was simply a man, period. A man born of a virgin, which was the miracle to signal that he was a prophet, but a prophet no greater than any other prophet and no claims to divinity. At all.
    No, Muslims believe that Jesus was the Messiah, able to perform almost all of the miracles in the New Testament plus some new ones, and that he didn't have two human parents, but was just created directly by God, like Adam.

    They didn't think he was God. Neither did the Arians. They were non-trinitarians who thought Christ was a created being. Just like Muslims do. Both groups can actually cite New Testament verses in support of that belief.

    What the hell does discussing Arianism, Islam, or historical understandings of the trinity have to do with my personal beliefs?
    Well, I assume you don't believe that there's more than one God. So if Jesus and God the Father aren't the same being, then Jesus isn't a God.
    ONE SOUL AT A TIME

    Quote Originally Posted by Danno
    i got nothing, you win again.
    Quote Originally Posted by resolve
    I trust God more than I trust you. And that will never change. I've always viewed you as kind of a snake. No biblical connotations need apply, just the regular ones. You're wise. You're really intelligent. But you're also conniving and have this way of getting what you want when you want it. The sickness I was talking about was your propensity to kind of reach in and grasp on to something to define someone here. You harangue them about it and manipulate it in to conversations. You do that with every single poster here. You do this until they see things your way. The "correct way". It's vile.

  8. #28
    (╯□)╯︵ ǝpıɔoıɔos resolve's Avatar
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    Please ask your Muslim friends if they believe Jesus was divine and see what they say. I have only heard the opposite from Muslims. If you can find some Muslims that do, then you can say there are Muslims who do and do not believe this. But it certainly isn't supported by the Koran that Jesus was divine any more than Adam was.

    Of note: they don't even believe Mohammad was divine, but they believe the Koran was. It may be helpful for you to apply the same thinking to Jesus. Prophet = not divine. Prophecy = divine.

    Arius definitely taught that Jesus was divine, but a lesser part of the Godhead than the Father, which he got from the book of John where Jesus says the Father is Greater since. What really got him into trouble was his teaching that Jesus was similar in sharing the same essence but not the same, homoiousios (the Athanasians, another group called out for heresy, taught almost the exact same thing as Arius but believed that they were exactly the same being, homoousios [note the 1 letter difference]). Since Orthodoxy beliefs at the time taught that Jesus and the Father are co-equal and of the same being as the Father, they condemned his views as heretical in the Council of Nicea in 325.
    Last edited by resolve; 20th February 15 at 07:36 PM.
    "It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." - Jiddu Krishnamurti

  9. #29
    (╯□)╯︵ ǝpıɔoıɔos resolve's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cullion View Post
    Well, I assume you don't believe that there's more than one God. So if Jesus and God the Father aren't the same being, then Jesus isn't a God.
    Jesus is a part of God. At least in my thinking. It's a little more complicated than that, but I don't want to derail this thread any more than it has been.
    "It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." - Jiddu Krishnamurti

  10. #30
    If I die before I wake.. Cullion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by resolve View Post
    Please ask your Muslim friends if they believe Jesus was divine and see what they say.
    They don't believe Jesus is God. They believe he was the messiah, born of a virgin and capable of miracles no other prophet was capable of. Arians didn't believe he was God either.

    You understand ? non-trinitarian Christians did not believe that Jesus was God. I am not talking about trinitarian Christians. Their belief that Jesus, God the Father and the Holy Spirit are all mysterious aspects of the same being is regarded as weird and illogical by Muslims, Jews, and several types of Christian that the Roman church exterminated during the dark ages.
    Last edited by Cullion; 20th February 15 at 07:29 PM.
    ONE SOUL AT A TIME

    Quote Originally Posted by Danno
    i got nothing, you win again.
    Quote Originally Posted by resolve
    I trust God more than I trust you. And that will never change. I've always viewed you as kind of a snake. No biblical connotations need apply, just the regular ones. You're wise. You're really intelligent. But you're also conniving and have this way of getting what you want when you want it. The sickness I was talking about was your propensity to kind of reach in and grasp on to something to define someone here. You harangue them about it and manipulate it in to conversations. You do that with every single poster here. You do this until they see things your way. The "correct way". It's vile.

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