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Thread: On creationism and science....

  1. #1
    SFGOON
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    Default On creationism and science....

    I have a challenge for the DA Youngs and Virii out there - those who believe life is a sophisticated manifestation of entropy.

    As most of you are aware, I have been studying some advanced biology. During the course of these studies, it has come to my attention that there is a deeply startling quality to the way genes are translated into proteins, one which suggests a single source of life. At best, I can say with a degree of certainty that all life - everything - evolved from one, 1, 1 x 10^-1, cell. Not two, not five, just one.

    Here's a worthwhile source followed by a TLDR summary:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Translation_(genetics)

    With DNA, the individual units are like binary computer bits, but biologists pissed backwards and call them a "base." There are four, called "T,A,G and C. Three units of DNA indicate a specific amino acid, called a "codon."

    The very strange thing is, every single living thing "reads" DNA the exact same way. This need not be the case. For example, the sequence "TAC-CGC-TGC" would be translated into an "AUG-GCG-ACG" messenger RNA then sent to the ribosomes to make a protein that goes "methionine, alanine, threonine."

    The translation is completely arbitrary. There's no reason why "GCG" couldn't be read as any other amino acid. Yet it does. For every single living thing on this Earth.

    Why these traits wouldn't change evolutionarily is easily understandable. One codon translation mutated will kill the organism quite quickly. But, there's literally NO diversity in DNA translation architecture. (Not even among the most simple of all organisms like Archaea, extreme-o-philes, etc.)

    Pause for a moment in your reading, and ponder the above. Then read on.



    So - 3.7 billion years ago, Earth was like a gigantic, variable temperature heater-stirrer. A day was about 18 hours long, the moon was VERY close to the Earth and caused VIOLENT tides. There were also VIOLENT volcanoes and constant lightning strikes. Everything was having the hell shaked out of it, and was heated and cooled to a variety of temperatures. All over the whole fucking Earth, all at once. For Billions of years. Eons beyond Eons.

    This is QUITE ideal for the spontaneous creation of life. Yet, all it seemed to produce - even in pockets of total physical isolation - is a single DNA architecture. That doesn't seem right. There should be several. Many many many varieties, with multiple points of origin. With that huge global scale over that cosmic amount of time.

    But there's only one. This points to a single origin of ALL life. A literal "mother cell" from which we are all descended.

    What's the simplest explanation? Why aren't we observing more diversity? Was there a demiurge beyond Chaos?

    I don't want to discuss theology right now per se - I'd rather look into some rational causation to see this explained. I'm curious to see if rational reductionism in this case forces us to examine the possibility of some form of creator.

  2. #2
    If I die before I wake.. Cullion's Avatar
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    <pedant>1 x 10 ^ -1 = 0.1

    You're looking for 1 x 10^0</pedant>

    One simple explanation would be: That's the only way that mechanism can work. The other variations just don't work in Earth's environment so they died.

    This may be demonstrably untrue. If so, I'll try something else.
    Last edited by Cullion; 14th March 10 at 04:30 PM.
    ONE SOUL AT A TIME

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    I trust God more than I trust you. And that will never change. I've always viewed you as kind of a snake. No biblical connotations need apply, just the regular ones. You're wise. You're really intelligent. But you're also conniving and have this way of getting what you want when you want it. The sickness I was talking about was your propensity to kind of reach in and grasp on to something to define someone here. You harangue them about it and manipulate it in to conversations. You do that with every single poster here. You do this until they see things your way. The "correct way". It's vile.

  3. #3
    SFGOON
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    Look into tRNA. Basically a protien with an anti-codon on one end and an amino acid on the other.

    It all has the exact same "thingy" in the middle. It just magically happens that a particular anticodon on one end corresponds to a specific amino acid on the other.

  4. #4
    If I die before I wake.. Cullion's Avatar
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    What other arrangements would be reproductively viable ?

    Perhaps the other arrangements popped up (and perhaps still pop up) all the time, but just fail to reproduce.
    ONE SOUL AT A TIME

    Quote Originally Posted by Danno
    i got nothing, you win again.
    Quote Originally Posted by resolve
    I trust God more than I trust you. And that will never change. I've always viewed you as kind of a snake. No biblical connotations need apply, just the regular ones. You're wise. You're really intelligent. But you're also conniving and have this way of getting what you want when you want it. The sickness I was talking about was your propensity to kind of reach in and grasp on to something to define someone here. You harangue them about it and manipulate it in to conversations. You do that with every single poster here. You do this until they see things your way. The "correct way". It's vile.

  5. #5
    Home Brewer Extraordinair Keith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cullion
    <pedant>1 x 10 ^ -1 = 0.1

    You're looking for 1 x 10^0</pedant>
    Dammit you beat me too it.

    In regards to the question in the OP, one theory might be that there WERE other forms of digital protien systhesis instructions, but they were out-competed by what is now the only form. Or that they simply weren't robust enough to survive the extremely variable and volitile conditions oh ancient Earth.

    Another theory might be that spontaniously self-replicating complex molecules are just such a low percentage chance combination, that even in the highly energized cosmic mixer that was ancient earth, it only happened once.

  6. #6
    Science Fucker Photobucket WarPhalange's Avatar
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    GOON, that's just how the universe works. Your question might as well be "Why is it that every time I add Mentos to Diet Coke, it explodes???"

    Like others have said, with the current pressures and temperatures on Earth, that's just the most stable form of life. It could be that on other planets life is silicon-based or something.

  7. #7
    If I die before I wake.. Cullion's Avatar
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    What Goon needs to do is try out other arrangements of tRNA and see if he can create life.

    LIFE ITSELF! LIFE!
    ONE SOUL AT A TIME

    Quote Originally Posted by Danno
    i got nothing, you win again.
    Quote Originally Posted by resolve
    I trust God more than I trust you. And that will never change. I've always viewed you as kind of a snake. No biblical connotations need apply, just the regular ones. You're wise. You're really intelligent. But you're also conniving and have this way of getting what you want when you want it. The sickness I was talking about was your propensity to kind of reach in and grasp on to something to define someone here. You harangue them about it and manipulate it in to conversations. You do that with every single poster here. You do this until they see things your way. The "correct way". It's vile.

  8. #8
    Will she be set upon you? jubei33's Avatar
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    Last edited by jubei33; 14th March 10 at 07:01 PM.
    Where have all the hobos gone to?

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  9. #9
    SFGOON
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cullion
    What other arrangements would be reproductively viable ?
    All of them. The assignment of a particular codon to a specific amino acid is completely arbitrary. There is no greater chemical affinity for one over the other.

    GOON, that's just how the universe works.
    The "dead" universe behaves in a perfectly random and predictable manner. This is an extremely conspicuous piece of arbitrary consistency. A literal law of nature where there should not be one.

    In regards to the question in the OP, one theory might be that there WERE other forms of digital protien systhesis instructions, but they were out-competed by what is now the only form. Or that they simply weren't robust enough to survive the extremely variable and volitile conditions oh ancient Earth.
    This is a question of information processing, not of alternative biochemistry. If that were the case I wouldn't even bother asking as the answer would be quite obvious. Assume all the same mechanisms. Why aren't there different codices?

    theory might be that spontaniously self-replicating complex molecules are just such a low percentage chance combination, that even in the highly energized cosmic mixer that was ancient earth, it only happened once.
    There are a total of four DNA bases, four RNA bases, and 21 amino acids which are used to construct proteins (despite the existence of thousands of amino acids.)

    Put all that into the whole ocean and treat it for a billion years under those conditions. With so few building blocks and so many opportunities to combine in a self-replicating manner, there's just no way in hell you're going to come away with a single viable particle. It's just way too large a number of particles on way too large a scale over way too much time for that to be feasible.

  10. #10
    SFGOON
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    Quote Originally Posted by jubei33
    I'll read those over. It looks like I'm not the only one asking these questions.

    I never come up with anything original. So sad.

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