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Thread: The Gun Trade

  1. #1
    Drinks Your Milkshake JohnnyCache's Avatar
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    Default The Gun Trade

    Ok

    this came up in a thread a while a go and it's a divergence that interests me

    There is an argument being put forth that "most" or "many" of the guns being used in border violence are purchased by illegals from US gun stores.

    This doesn't seem plausible to me. I would think you'd be better off getting bulk weapons somewhere else if you were a mexican drug lord.

    Epsilon alluded to having done some "research" on it.

    What do people think and are there hard numbers either way?

    Also, what do people on here think about finding ways to limit straw purchases in general? What's the best way to do so/appropriate penalty for those caught?

  2. #2
    Registered Member HappyOldGuy's Avatar
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    A big chunk of the guns are actually coming from the US. That is for sure, and really can't be argued against. There are traces from Mexico, and siezures here, as well as statistics looking at gun sales on the border that all confirm that a substantial trade is happening. Is it the biggest chunk? That we can't say from anything I've looked at.

    But that by itself doesn't necessarily suggest that "gun control" is the best answer to the problem. What pisses me off about this is that a real problem is getting swallowed up in the second most absurdist washington echo chamber (#1 belonging to the abortion debate).
    I'm here a week now... waiting for a mission... getting softer. Every minute I sit in front of this computer, I get weaker, and every minute Charlie squats in the gym, he gets stronger


  3. #3
    Zendetta
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    I think the criticism of Mexico as a "failed state" is accurate. I was watching a TV show about the Sinaloa Cartel and now I am sufficiently fear-mongered.

    They arn't getting the full auto guns from US gun stores, thats for sure.

  4. #4
    Drinks Your Milkshake JohnnyCache's Avatar
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    you think the abortion debate is important?

    I thought it was just a tool for moving threads off topic.

  5. #5
    Shawarma
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    With regards to #1, a substantial amount of the dead fetuses in Mexico are imported from the US as well. Or at least they were, back in the day.

    I am totally unqualified to comment on this subject, but I gotta admit that the "American guns in Mexico" sounds a fishy to me as well - I mean, Columbia is just to the south. Couldn't they get the gangsters there sell them some cheap AKs instead of relying on expensive US imports? And in a country as corrupt as Mexico, I doubt the Russian mafia would have much trouble landing shipments of AKs either.

  6. #6
    Scrapper
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    I believe (http://www.google.com/search?q=Guns+...ient=firefox-a) that 17% of the guns found in Mexican crime scenes were bought or stolen in the US.

    Keep in mind, some of the largest gun makers in the worl are headquartered in Brazil and Argentina.

  7. #7
    Zendetta
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    Douches like Eric Holder have suggested that prohibiting assault rifles might help (Obama is wisely choosing to NOT say this).

    Let me just say that even discussing taking away Americans' Rights to make up for Mexico's eroding society fills me with rage and disgust. Especially when the real answer is "End the War on Drugs".

    Also: you been doin' some fine work lately, JC.

  8. #8
    Registered Member HappyOldGuy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyCache
    you think the abortion debate is important?

    I thought it was just a tool for moving threads off topic.
    No, I think it is an absurd partisan echo chamber where noone is interested in solving anything. So I get pissed when real issues (like stem cells) get caught up in it.

    Same here.

    And zen brings up an interesting question. Back when I was a young pup and liked to play with guns, it was before the CA ban. (make your dinosaur jokes). Back then, you could trivially go to any gun show and pick up an Uzi on one table, conversion instructions on the second, and a new pin or whetever other parts were needed at the third, and have your full auto a half hour in the garage later. Obviously california isn't like that anymore (and IIRC Uzi's weren't that easy, but you get the point). How about Texas etc. How hard are conversion kits to come by?
    I'm here a week now... waiting for a mission... getting softer. Every minute I sit in front of this computer, I get weaker, and every minute Charlie squats in the gym, he gets stronger


  9. #9
    Senior Member Robot Jesus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyCache
    you think the abortion debate is important?

    I thought it was just a tool for moving threads off topic.

    I think what he meant is that both the gun control debate and the abortion debate are places rational argument goes to die; to that end the abortion debate is worse.
    Last edited by Robot Jesus; 17th April 09 at 03:29 PM. Reason: the old man beat me to it, why can't I delete posts anymore?

  10. #10
    ad hominem is awesome elipson's Avatar
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    I think the criticism of Mexico as a "failed state" is accurate. I was watching a TV show about the Sinaloa Cartel and now I am sufficiently fear-mongered.

    They arn't getting the full auto guns from US gun stores, thats for sure.
    I have a lot of friends in different parts of Mexico. They think the failed state idea is funny. Mexico has ALWAYS been violent, and most of the drug violence is centered around actors in the game. A bigger problem for everyday mexicans is kidnapping, not that the violence isn't also a big problem.

    Pretty much every expert I've read agrees that most of the weapons are coming from the US, and these are people who have no benefit from being wrong on this. But I will skip the "appeal to authority" argument cuz its crappy.

    The US is the biggest market for Mexican goods and the biggest destination for Mexican populations movements. This creates a HUGE infrastructure serving to connect the two countries. This is why I don't for a second believe that most of the guns are coming from Brazil, Venzuala, or former soviet countries. The infrastructure isn't there. With the US/Mexico relationship, you have the transportation infrastructure, the communications, and the personnel on the ground of both sides of the border that can allow this too happen. Logistically its a no-brainer. Getting guns from the US is simpler than getting them from anywhere else, they get smuggled as part of legitmate cross border traffic, and are arranged by associates on each side of the border. I'll try to find some info on Mexican trade numbers to emphasise the point.

    Add to this the one way nature of US border enforcement efforts, with the emphasis on keeping mexicans out, instead of keeping guns in (although this is changing with the increased pressure of the drug war). Now take a very.... accepted gun culture where there are lots of gun shops and gun shows, combines this with HUGE profit margins for the drug trade (estimated $10 billion) and its not difficult to imagine the potential for corruption among gun dealers in Border States. Offer enough money and the notso law-abiding gun dealers will eventually cave to the pressure of lots of money. This is likely a minority of gun dealers, but considering how many there are this could still be a large number. Just look at all the illegal weapons used in domestic crimes. Obviously they are not impossible to acquire.

    For what its worth, most experts think the FULLY auto guns and military grade weapons are being obtained either through theft of military stores (mostly mexican, but also some from American bases). Some of the heaviest hitters in the Cartels are former Mexican Special forces, so obviously they use their connections to get things done. There also IS a market in bringing in large stores of big guns from other countries, but the difficulty in this, and the potential loss of getting your entire shipment of illegal arms siezed, means its a bigger gamble and therefore more rare.

    Part of me thinks the fuss about fully auto weapons is the media playing things up. I doubt they would take the time to explain the difference between fully auto AK's and semi-auto AK's. In either case, semi auto assualt rifles are better weapons of war than hunting rifles, shotguns, and hand guns. If I'm wrong on this idea, please feel free to correct me.

    The FBI has a gun trace program that the Mexicans use to find out if guns came from the US. I will see if I can find some good sources for it.

    I'll avoid the anti-gun debate if possible. Making the argument that the guns ARE coming from the US is more important at the moment then trying to revoke the second amendment.
    "Pranksters and LARPists write or call in threats. Guys like me claim responsibility.

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    "I can teach libs to love guns faster then I can teach cons to think, it seems."

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