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Thread: The Anti-War Left

  1. #1
    The Wastrel
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    I was part of the anti-war left, though I never would have been caught at one of those "American Capitalism is Enslaving the Beautiful Good People of the Third World" rallies. And even now I am more and more tired of the radical posturing. The right is peppered with it's wide-eyed lunatics-Ann Coulter, Dinesh D'Souza, Rush Limbaugh, Thomas Sowell, etc. But the left has whole armies of these people with their chic Che Guevara t-shirts and their $800 bongo drums. Which reminds me...
    This is a personal anecdote and entirely tangential:
    (One time while I was living in Seattle a guitar-playing hippie castigated me for not giving him money for the next Grateful Dead concert. He said, "You know your parents drive BMWs." Well, no. And what's more, he and his buddies were playing Martin guitars. And at the time, my big treat was having enough money to buy rice and peanut sauce from the Thai place down the street.This moment changed me forever)
    Anyway, now that the war is basically a done deal, does the radical left realize how much more it is sticking it's neck out by continuing with it's exaggerated rhetoric? Let me explain: What if, counter to their claims, the war ends quickly, the U.S. establishes a democratic regime, and then proceeds to leave Iraqi oil in Iraqi control. What then? Their entire position collapses. Their argument against the war rested entirely on these assumptions. It lacked any pragmatic dimension whatsoever. They risk discrediting themselves even further with the moderate majority of Americans who were also leery about the war, but who felt no affinity for the anti-war movement's platform.

    This is my advice: Stop the anti-war demonstrations and seize the initiative from the Administration by moving directly to making demands for the direction of a post-war Iraq. Start calling for elections, for proportional representation, for federalism in Iraq, for human rights legislation, and for economic and foreign policy autonomy for a new democratically elected regime in Iraq. For if you do not, the right just might beat you to it, and you'll be stuck holding the wrong signs. And there'll be no hope of seeing anyone but a Bush in the White House for the next twelve years. Can you imagine that?

    **The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**

  2. #2
    ad hominem is awesome elipson's Avatar
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    *full body shiver thinking of bush in power that long*
    Just think, we'll have a whole generation thinking thats what a good public speaker sounds like!

    I personally, disagreed (and marched) agianst this war mainly because of how Bush is going about it. I will always hold that opinion, even though I don't doubt that Iraq is gonna have better times ahead of it. I really think that Bush just messed this whole thing up, from a political point of view.

    "An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind"
    -Ghandi
    "Pranksters and LARPists write or call in threats. Guys like me claim responsibility.

    -SFGoon.

    "I can teach libs to love guns faster then I can teach cons to think, it seems."

    -JohnnyCache

  3. #3
    SamHarber
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    When I picked my girlfriend up from work yesterday, the students at the nearby college were protesting outside. From the signs and placards they had, they all had what could best be called a piss-poor idea of the background to the entire thing. I'll forgive the younger ones, as they are either naive or jumping on the bandwagon to be cool. The older students and teachers really should know better.
    I don't mind them opposing the war, but I'd rather they opposed it while knowing most of the facts behind it.

    US: 4 UK: 8

  4. #4
    Registered Member Mr. Donkeypenis's Avatar
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    I think Bush handled the whole thing just fine. I hope that next we leave the useless U.N.

    A.K.A MEAT
    "The United Nations is the biggest joke of this century. If each one is trying to assert his own rights there, how can there be a United Nations?"

  5. #5
    Beatdown Richie
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    Anyway, now that the war is basically a done deal, does the radical left realize how much more it is sticking it's neck out by continuing with it's exaggerated rhetoric? Let me explain: What if, counter to their claims, the war ends quickly, the U.S. establishes a democratic regime, and then proceeds to leave Iraqi oil in Iraqi control. What then?
    Then, the US administration has still alienated a large number of important allies, shown its contempt for the UN and international law, and established itself as international bully #1. Not to mention the American and Iraqi casualties that the war will cause until then.

    Much of the damage has already been done, no matter how well the war goes from now on.
    Their entire position collapses. Their argument against the war rested entirely on these assumptions. It lacked any pragmatic dimension whatsoever. They risk discrediting themselves even further with the moderate majority of Americans who were also leery about the war, but who felt no affinity for the anti-war movement's platform.
    I don't really see why that would happen.
    This is my advice: Stop the anti-war demonstrations and seize the initiative from the Administration by moving directly to making demands for the direction of a post-war Iraq. Start calling for elections, for proportional representation, for federalism in Iraq, for human rights legislation, and for economic and foreign policy autonomy for a new democratically elected regime in Iraq.
    Calling for these things sounds like a good plan. But stopping the anti-war demonstrations would, IMO, send the wrong signal - that anti-war protesters have changed their opinion about the lack of justification of the war, and now support it. Which they don't, AFAICT.
    For if you do not, the right just might beat you to it, and you'll be stuck holding the wrong signs. And there'll be no hope of seeing anyone but a Bush in the White House for the next twelve years. Can you imagine that?
    Argh. I prefer not to.

  6. #6
    SLJ
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    >shown its contempt for the UN and international law.


    Which would have pissed around for another 12 years leaving Sadam to do as he pleases, the US is doing the right thing.

    ----------------------------------------------------------
    Space may be the final frontier,
    But it's made in a Hollywood basement.

  7. #7
    Beatdown Richie
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    >shown its contempt for the UN and international law.


    Which would have pissed around for another 12 years leaving Sadam to do as he pleases, the US is doing the right thing.
    As you may have noticed, there were UN inspectors inside Iraq for the last couple of months, they found some stuff and had it destroyed, they checked some of the information that was given to them by the US and found it inaccurate. Now, of course they were only there because of the pressure exerted by the US - what do you expect Saddam to say, "welcome back my friends, long time no see, let me show you all of my new toys?" .
    BUT. They were there. They were in the process of disarming Iraq and making sure that Saddam was not going anywhere with his suspected weapons of mass destruction. There was no justification to start a war now, when progress was being made, in the face of half of the UN security council saying, "hey, inspections seem to work, let's do that for a while."

  8. #8
    Osiris
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    "But the left has whole armies of these people with their chic Che Guevara t-shirts and their $800 bongo drums."

    I do NOT have a bongo drum!!

    "A well set table, 'Third Rock From The Sun'
    Dead men hung, 'Caddilacs and dinosaurs'
    hot peanuts and fireworks, a Holocaust" - Warcloud

  9. #9
    SLJ
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    Sadam didn't want them to find the weapons, he's hidden them well away.

    Driving round in vans with U.N on the side doesn't exactly take him by suprise does it.

    We know he's got them, we sold them to him.

    ----------------------------------------------------------
    Space may be the final frontier,
    But it's made in a Hollywood basement.

  10. #10
    The Wastrel
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    I can loan a bit so you could buy one. Tee-hee!

    I don't really see why that would happen.
    Let me explain. They are making certain claims and predictions about the war as the basis of their anti-war sentiment-"war for oil", imperialism, millions of dead Iraqis etc. Given that, if the outcome does not resemble their predictions, then they are stuck on the wrong platform. That matters. It's why the Democrats are so utterly silent.
    As for international law...what law? There is no real international law. The UN is currently ineffective because it only reflects the conflicts of interest that exist between nations outside the UN. Think about this, in the real world of law, do people vote on whether or not one is going to be arrested? No, the laws are rigid and followed as consistently as possible, because the monopoly on force is held by the state. In the international system, an individual country seeking the UN's imprimatur has to contend with competing and sometimes entirely spiteful interests. I guarantee you, that even had the US provided incontrovertible evidence, France, China, and Germany would have continued with their intractability. Russia probably could have been won aboard. Thing is these things are about interests, not law or principle. And nations don't respect each other's interests if they run up against each other in any way. As much as Bush's diplomatic failures are deep and wide, France and the opposition committed a great diplomatic failure when it opposed against all reason a resolution with an explicit and definite threat of force for non-compliance. They're both to blame.

    **The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**

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