Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 39

Thread: off-shoring and immigration

  1. #1
    garbanzo
    Guest garbanzo's Avatar


    Yes | No

    Default off-shoring and immigration

    One of the issues being debated recently is how the government ostensablity free-market economy should handle the problem of off-shoring.

    Many companies, in their effort to maximize the profits reaped by their executive officers are seeking to take advantage of low wages abroad and favorable exchange rates by moving jobs (not employees) overseas.

    In the technology and financial services industries the three primary destinations for jobs formerly held by people in America are: India, Singapore, Ireland.

    The discourse concerning this type of issue usually presumes that ther is a hard and fast line between the public and private sectors. That line, of course, is movable, and is usually relocated from time to time to the the advantages of large corporations: the bail-out of the airline industry, for example.

    Most macro economists seem to the think a few hundred thousand American jobs are a small price to pay for the profits that will be gained by offshoring, and that any attempts by the government to solve this problem would amount to excessive government interference.

    Rather than attempting to stop the export of jobs to people in other countries, why can we not stop the import of people for jobs in this country?

    Specifically, why can we not revoke all work visas for all citizens of India, Singapore and Ireland and deport them?

    Why can we not institute a moratorium on any further work visas for citizens from those countries?

    I am aware that there may be serious problems with this approach, but I'm thowing it out there for debate.

  2. #2
    Registered Member CanuckMA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    342


    Yes | No

    Default

    The main problem is that there are instances where we need to import skill workers. Also, the visa holders, at least work and pay taxes here, thus stimulating the economy. Offshoring just puts worker out of jobs, unable to pay taxes and consume. The goods are not getting cheaper, just more profit for the corporation. I'd be more in favour of placing a hard limit on the deductability of compensation, and a minimum time that a stock must be held before it can be resold. If you buy stock and know that you must keep it for, say, 2 years, you will care less about the next quarter results as opposed to the long term viability of the corporation. I'd even be in favour of placing limits on the value of stocks based on real analysis of that corporation's worth.

    I shake my head everytime I read about a stock going down because the corporation says it will not make as much as it thought, or going up because it says it won't lose quite as much as tought.

  3. #3
    garbanzo
    Guest garbanzo's Avatar


    Yes | No

    Default

    Originally posted by CanuckMA
    The main problem is that there are instances where we need to import skilled workers.
    I guess I am skeptical as the the need. I think that it gets overblown because hiring companies know that when they sponsor someone for a visa, they own them. So they fabricate an whay a college graduate from Dehli is the only person who can do a job that a college graduate from Anywhere USA is capable of doing.

    Your other points are quite interesting. I hadn't considered the role of speculation in all this.

  4. #4
    Senior Member nasty_totoro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    1,022


    Yes | No

    Default

    By deporting the foreign tech workers you will do several things

    1. raise the wages of tech workers in the US by creating an artificial shortage ... thus raising costs ... american tech companies may become uncompetitive

    2. deport a highly educated, dedicated workforce ... a lot of the research, development and production is done by foreign workers ... deport them and where do they go ... other countries whose companies will benefit from their skills

    3. force even more tech jobs offshore ... if your costs are going up ... export them ...
    totoro-san ... world sushi munching champion ...


  5. #5
    Registered Member CanuckMA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    342


    Yes | No

    Default

    Originally posted by garbanzo
    I guess I am skeptical as the the need. I think that it gets overblown because hiring companies know that when they sponsor someone for a visa, they own them. So they fabricate an whay a college graduate from Dehli is the only person who can do a job that a college graduate from Anywhere USA is capable of doing.
    Indeed. I think that making skill worker migration between Canada and the U.S. visaless would solve the problem. The economies and values are similar enough that they should be viewed as a single worker pool. The elimination of visa would eliminate the servitude from the work.

    Your other points are quite interesting. I hadn't considered the role of speculation in all this.
    Speculation is what forces company to plan for the end of quarter numbers as opposed to the longer view. I have worked for Hyundai, Asian philosophy, privately owned and seen true 5 year planning. I've also worked for enough U.S. based (I'm in Canada) public companies to see the grilling that business unit managers go through if the 'numbers' are not met. I've seen shiiping being closed for days before the end of the quarter because the 'numbers' had been met, and why go too much over, we may need tose sales in the next quarter, to make me sick. I've also seen public companies have contract people, at 2-3 times the cost of the equivalent full time employee, for years because it does not inflate the body count. Unchecked capitalism is not good.

  6. #6
    garbanzo
    Guest garbanzo's Avatar


    Yes | No

    Default

    nasty_totoro:

    Excellent points.

    I must question your use of the term "artificial" however.

    When a company exports jobs to Singapore, the government of which heavily subsidizes the off-shoring industry, it is "natural".

    When the U.S. governemt allows people to come to the U.S. and work, it is "natural".

    An effort made in defense of working Americans is "artificial".

  7. #7
    Registered Member CanuckMA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    342


    Yes | No

    Default

    Originally posted by nasty_totoro
    By deporting the foreign tech workers you will do several things

    1. raise the wages of tech workers in the US by creating an artificial shortage ... thus raising costs ... american tech companies may become uncompetitive
    There currently is a glut of tech workers in North America. I have 23 years in IT, have been unemplyoed for 8 months, along with an estimated 20 to 30,000 other IT workers in the Toronto area ALONE. Toronto is typical of the rest of North America. The 'shortage' is created by using requirements that are un-realistic to facilitate the import of workers. Who would you rather have have working for you, a citizen, with a family who will balk at working 80 hours a week, and in a normal market might leave, or somebody on a visa that knows few people, and is aware of the fact that if he loses his job, he has to leave the country?

    2. deport a highly educated, dedicated workforce ... a lot of the research, development and production is done by foreign workers ... deport them and where do they go ... other countries whose companies will benefit from their skills
    And when their visas expire, they go where?


    3. force even more tech jobs offshore ... if your costs are going up ... export them ...
    There are ways to control that. Remember that the cost savings are not being passed to the consumers, they usually go to the executives.

  8. #8
    Registered User punchingdummy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    2,818


    Yes | No

    Default Re: off-shoring and immigration

    Originally posted by garbanzo

    Rather than attempting to stop the export of jobs to people in other countries, why can we not stop the import of people for jobs in this country?
    These two alternatives are the same side of the coin...stopping the import of people WILL aggrevate the export of jobs to other countries.

  9. #9
    Registered User punchingdummy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    2,818


    Yes | No

    Default

    Originally posted by garbanzo
    I guess I am skeptical as the the need. I think that it gets overblown because hiring companies know that when they sponsor someone for a visa, they own them. So they fabricate an whay a college graduate from Dehli is the only person who can do a job that a college graduate from Anywhere USA is capable of doing.
    Agreed. They are used because they are economically actractive. They can be hired for less (in spite of INS attempts to guarantee market wages) and are generally lower maintenance that their US counterparts. We've got some of the best, if not the best, technology workers in the world. But those workers also have high demands and expectations.

  10. #10
    Registered Member CanuckMA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    342


    Yes | No

    Default

    Originally posted by punchingdummy
    Agreed. They are used because they are economically actractive. They can be hired for less (in spite of INS attempts to guarantee market wages) and are generally lower maintenance that their US counterparts. We've got some of the best, if not the best, technology workers in the world. But those workers also have high demands and expectations.
    Yeah, like a job!

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
◮ Top