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JackHanma
22nd February 04, 03:41 PM
I have been wondered about something. I have about 1 year's worth of Kempo and then a year's worth or grappling under my belt. But I haven't learned a counter in grappling for an ambush from behind. Its very usual for a fighter in MMA too get into a "bear hug" from behind that traps both arms. But such an attack would seem likely on "da Str33t" by a mugger. Usually you get suplexed or taken down if you don't use your legs to hook your opponents legs before the throw. I'm used to starting from bad positions like the back mount on the ground but not standing. What should I do?

Osiris
22nd February 04, 03:43 PM
Break the grip as you drop your base and go from there.

JackHanma
22nd February 04, 03:47 PM
Breaking the grip is the problem. Your arms are trapped. What about just butt flopping to the ground?

Osiris
22nd February 04, 03:56 PM
They have them below the elbow?

JackHanma
22nd February 04, 04:15 PM
Ok, you're walking down the "Street" and a mugger suddenly grabs you from behind in a bear hug trapping both arms. The grip can be below the elbows or above the elbows. I want to know a counter to both grips.

Osiris
22nd February 04, 04:20 PM
Actually, he wont grab you below the elbow. Thats rather low. So hes either got you on the elbow or above. Either way theres a certain hand position you use to break the lock. I really cant explain it in detail.

Punisher
22nd February 04, 04:37 PM
I think it's more likely for someone to hit, push, or tackle you from behind then get you in a static bear hug.

Likely you're going to be forced forward either by the blow or the guys continued momemtum.

If you're hit or pushed, assuming your're not knocked out, you have to recover your balance, assess the threat and deal with it from there. At my dojo we do drills were you close your eyes and your partner pushes you from behind, hard enough you have to take a couple of steps. You recover, turn around, and have to decide what to do given a variety of parameters. You don't want to go straight ninja on a guy that accidently ran into you.

If your forward momentum is so great that you can't recover, you should comply and try to roll with it the best you can. If the guy has his arms wrapped around you, try to pin them to your body and end up on top.

kismasher
22nd February 04, 04:41 PM
here's how you do it:

1. he traps both arms:
really, i don't see the problem here, just curl your arms and base to one side, then suplex his stupid ass

2. doesn't trap the arms:
okay, i know this takes practice, but the hand that he is GRIPPING ONTO is the weak point. Not the one grabbing. use both your arms and grab the same forearm that he is holding and push down. two on one should break the grip. you may have to throw an elbow to his face as well


obviously these are only two of a myriad of possibilities.

elipson
22nd February 04, 06:28 PM
If hes got you lifted off the ground, bring your heel up to hit him in the groin. Once on the ground, give a rear headbut to his face. Slide your hand to the side of your body and start hitting him in the balls. Grab the groin, step behind him and lift, causing him to fall backwards and land on his back. We call this an usurper throw. It's nice. Wesley Snipes does this move at one point in Blade 2.
Instead of the throw, you can also grab his leg and pull it through, causing him to fall on his ass. You can also pop him an elbow once your groin strikes have given you some space.
My school actually teaches a hip throw off of this one, but thats a little more tricky.

virtual_mantis
22nd February 04, 06:52 PM
Try this one. Bend down like you're about to sit in a chair and thrust your arms forward. Both movements should be done simultaneously. You should be thrusting your hips back a little too.

Ofcourse, only works if you haven't been picked up yet. If you are being picked up do the heel kick thing like crazy until he puts you back down and then do the hip thrust.

give it a try, works petty good.

Spunky
23rd February 04, 01:16 AM
If he picks you up, rotate your hips perpendicular to his. It changes your center of mass, might be just enought that he can't hold you up since he was expecting your weight to be in a different place. It can help to slip out of the grip and create space for an escape to fill your lungs as he grabs, and release the air as you drop; the sudden collapse of the lungs makes you smaller than he gauged when he took the hold. I think it's important if you attempt any attack to the face or legs to affect his HIPS as well. Move his center off balance and it's more difficult to resist an escape.

Ippatsu182
23rd February 04, 08:20 AM
I think the first thing to do is be aware of your surroundings. This sounds pretty basic, but if you know what's going on and don't look like easy prey, chances are you won't be victimized.

WhiteShark
23rd February 04, 10:05 AM
Here's what I was looking for two Bear Hug escapes demonstrated by the vibrant Erin Toughill.

Arms down:
http://bjj.org/techniques/erintoughill/t2-1/

Arms up:
http://bjj.org/techniques/erintoughill/t2-3/

Both include virtual_mantis' hip control which is the most important aspect of almost everything in the world.

KhorneliusPraxx
23rd February 04, 10:20 AM
Erin Toughill? I know this will make me sound like a retard but, that girl is hot. Now, I will go away ashamed of myself...

DANINJA
24th February 04, 04:31 PM
scrape your leg against shin, stamp on foot ,hit the groin ,strike him with ur bum(the bum strike) and sit down on him.Alternatively just clench ur butt cheeks really tight!!!!!!

Rigante
25th February 04, 02:28 PM
I find it incredible that after two years of training you havent been taught at least several counters. If I were you I would run not walk as fast away from that school as possible.

Ronin
25th February 04, 02:45 PM
maybe something needs to be added to this:
Defender - 150lbs
Attacker - 250lbs

Now what?
Keep in mind that NO ONE grabs someone in a "nice" bear hug, they grab them VIOLENTLY and toss them aroung like a fucking rag doll !!

blankslate
25th February 04, 02:54 PM
Originally posted by KhorneliusPraxx
Erin Toughill? I know this will make me sound like a retard but, that girl is hot. Now, I will go away ashamed of myself...

Yes, get the hips down if you can...

Khorn...you are not retarded...

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6739

IndoChinese
25th February 04, 03:03 PM
Kinjit.

WhiteShark
25th February 04, 03:51 PM
Kryptic.

Elsiris
25th February 04, 04:24 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Punisher
[B]I think it's more likely for someone to hit, push, or tackle you from behind then get you in a static bear hug.

I agree with punisher on this one however, if some is stupid enough to grab you from behind and bear hug you don't drop to the ground because then you'll be and the ground and he'll be over top of you and then you're fucked! keep it simple smash his face with the back of your head and grab his balls and squeese, he'll let go

Ronin
25th February 04, 04:27 PM
I love the way everyone assumes that anyone attacking you from behind is a raging idiot.

Elsiris
25th February 04, 04:33 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by virtual_mantis
[B]Try this one. Bend down like you're about to sit in a chair and thrust your arms forward. Both movements should be done simultaneously. You should be thrusting your hips back a little too.

Not to trash your idea or anything virtual_mantis but I don't think this would be so effective against an attacker who knows what he's doing (even though if we're assuming that he knows what he's doing we can also assume he won't be dumb enough to bear hug you) The reason for this is because I've seen this same technique used and it only allowed for the attacker to get a choke hold which is an even worse situation to be in

Shuma-Gorath
25th February 04, 04:40 PM
http://bjj.org/techniques/erintoughill/t2-3/3j.jpg
She's having way too much fun.


Since someone trying to ambush you with a bearhug instead of a blunt weapon strike is probably much bigger than you, hook one of their legs at all costs to avoid a suplex, then work from there.

JackHanma
25th February 04, 04:54 PM
Rigante said:
I find it incredible that after two years of training you havent been taught at least several counters. If I were you I would run not walk as fast away from that school as possible.

Unlike Rigante deal with personal attacks using the Private Messages. I never said I didn't have any counters to a bear hug.

Ronin said:
maybe something needs to be added to this:
Defender - 150lbs
Attacker - 250lbs

Now what?
Keep in mind that NO ONE grabs someone in a "nice" bear hug, they grab them VIOLENTLY and toss them aroung like a fucking rag doll !!

Thats exactly the problem I was refering to. I don't know of any MMA legal counters and if someone gets his opponent's back standing in MMA he usually slams his opponent bad. I wish to avoid that happening in the street or the ring. I was just hoping someone knew of way to break the hold other than hammer fists to the groin.

Rigante
25th February 04, 05:31 PM
So how do you get ambushed from behind in sport fighting. I wrestled for several years free style and I was never "ambushed from behind".

virtual_mantis
25th February 04, 05:47 PM
Originally posted by Elsiris
[QUOTE]Originally posted by virtual_mantis
[B]

Not to trash your idea or anything virtual_mantis but I don't think this would be so effective against an attacker who knows what he's doing (even though if we're assuming that he knows what he's doing we can also assume he won't be dumb enough to bear hug you) The reason for this is because I've seen this same technique used and it only allowed for the attacker to get a choke hold which is an even worse situation to be in

Did you try it? it's pretty effective. give it a shot, make sure you really thrust your hips and arms at the same time.

also, you're not just going to stand there and say "whew, glad i got out of that bear hug" and go on your way. you would do the thrust and continue to move.

Try it out.

JackHanma
25th February 04, 08:12 PM
Quote: So how do you get ambushed from behind in sport fighting. I wrestled for several years free style and I was never "ambushed from behind".

God damn it. Learn to read. I said "if someone gets his opponent's back standing." I never said anything about being ambushed in MMA.

Rigante
25th February 04, 08:25 PM
Quote: "But I havent learned a counter in grappling for an ambush from behind"

Are there two JackHanmas's here?

JackHanma
25th February 04, 08:35 PM
I said "counter in grappling." You moron. I mean I haven't learned a counter to the arms trapped bear hug from behind in sport grappling.

Rigante
25th February 04, 08:43 PM
I still dont understand how you get ambushed from behind in a sport contest.....unless you are doing it in a gay bar.

DCS
25th February 04, 08:44 PM
Hi,

I've been "ambushed from behind" only twice in T3H STR33T.

One was solved with the technique showed in:

http://bjj.org/techniques/erintoughill/t2-3/

The other was facing multiples, ...

DCS
25th February 04, 08:47 PM
And, btw, what is exactly a "mugger"?.

Simple words, please.

JackHanma
25th February 04, 09:25 PM
Quote: And, btw, what is exactly a "mugger"?.

Main Entry: 2mugger
Function: noun
Etymology: 3mug
: one who attacks with intent to rob

DCS
25th February 04, 09:28 PM
JackHanma:

Thanks.

HAPKO3
25th February 04, 09:29 PM
Originally posted by JackHanma
I have been wondered about something. I have about 1 year's worth of Kempo and then a year's worth or grappling under my belt. But I haven't learned a counter in grappling for an ambush from behind. Its very usual for a fighter in MMA too get into a "bear hug" from behind that traps both arms. But such an attack would seem likely on "da Str33t" by a mugger. Usually you get suplexed or taken down if you don't use your legs to hook your opponents legs before the throw. I'm used to starting from bad positions like the back mount on the ground but not standing. What should I do?

If he's trappung your arms below the elbows:

Grapevine one of the legs so that you can't be suplexed. As you do that, shift your hips to the side opposite of your strong arm, and pull the strong out. If the grip is too tight, bring your elbow down, pivoting on the point of the forearm where your arm is trapped, and then pull up. That frees up one hand. With the hand free, you can try and elbow his head behind you. At this point in time, chances are he will have thrown to the ground or released you. On the off chance that he's still holding you up, you can use your free hand to grab and break fingers, which will make him release his grip. Fight from there.

If he's trapping your arms above the elbows:

Grapevine. In this position, you can likely just pick a side and power out. If he's much stronger than you, you can shift your hips out to the side opposite of your string hand and attack the groin. Chances are you won't hit, but that will make him hesitate, giving you a chance to power out with your elbow.

HAPKO3
25th February 04, 09:31 PM
You can also throw in backwards head-butts, and groin kicks with the foot you're not grapevining with. Chances you'll hit are pretty low, but it will make your attacker hesitate.

HAPKO3
25th February 04, 09:33 PM
Originally posted by DCS
Hi,

I've been "ambushed from behind" only twice in T3H STR33T.

One was solved with the technique showed in:

http://bjj.org/techniques/erintoughill/t2-3/

The other was facing multiples, ...

The problem with this anckle pick is that noone is gonna bear hug you and just stand there. The will try to lift you and trow/supplex.

nihilist
25th February 04, 09:44 PM
Hapko is making the most sense so far.
letting someone walk up behind you in the first place means you are unaware.
If you hear someone coming up behind while walking, change direction.
If they change direction with you, turn to face them.

DCS
25th February 04, 10:46 PM
Originally posted by HAPKO3
The problem with this anckle pick is that noone is gonna bear hug you and just stand there. The will try to lift you and trow/supplex.


Well, the ankle pick worked in one ocasion. (sorry, no videotape available to prove my dubious claims):)


May be i'm a lucky guy.

Ronin
26th February 04, 08:00 AM
If I may:

When we discuss a "what would you do", or a "if someone did this", type of scenario, the one thing we MUST do is state HOW you are attacked, and I don't mean with WHAT technique, but HOW it is applied.

Let's do this, "pretend" that YOU are they guy that is gonna do the attacking, HOW would YOU attack so that your attack WORKS ?
NOW, counter THAT attack.

I have not seen many "bear hug" in the "real world" and all the ones I have seen in "competition" or training ended up with somone getting "suplex" on their head.
BUT, they few ones I have seen we all along these lines:
Some big motherfucker grabs some smaller sucker and ehips him around like rag doll and throws to the ground ( less than 3 seconds for ALL that), proceeds to soccer kick and stomp a mud hole in said victim.

I look at ALL locks/grabs the same way, like a punch, you don't counter a punch AFTER it hits you do you? NO.
So you don't counter the lock/grab AFTER its set in and you are being flung around like a sticky booger on someone's finger, you counter the MOMENT you feel CONTACT.
Because, if you are gonna "assume" ANYTHING, assume this:
If someone is gonna put you in a "bear hug" they KNOW how to fuck you up with a "bear hug".
SO DON'T get in the "bear hug".
Simple, no?

Justme
26th February 04, 08:13 AM
Slightly off topic. Ronin brings up an interesting idea of going through attacks in your mind and running through various counters.... I found this article by Darrin Laur interesting on this subject:


http://members.shaw.ca/tmanifold/combative_based.htm

WingChun Lawyer
26th February 04, 08:47 AM
Originally posted by JackHanma
Ok, you're walking down the "Street" and a mugger suddenly grabs you from behind in a bear hug trapping both arms. The grip can be below the elbows or above the elbows. I want to know a counter to both grips.

Mantis´ escape techique sounded good (that was about the only useful thing I learned in six months at a Praying Mantis McDojo). I´ll add my two cents, a siu nin tao technique (works only if you are grabbed abover the elbows, I think).

Just move your hip a bit forward, in order to create some space between your butt and his groin. Move your hands to his groin. Proceed to steal the peaches as painfully as possible.

Ronin
26th February 04, 09:06 AM
Out of couriosity, all you guys that posted a "defense", in your mind, what did your "attacker" look like?
And HOW did he grab you? and I don't mean WHERE , I mean HOW, How fast, how violently, how powerful was he? did he move you forward when he grabbed you, did he lift you? did he pull you back ?

Justme
26th February 04, 09:10 AM
"Out of couriosity, all you guys that posted a "defense", in your mind, what did your "attacker" look like?"

About 5'5".... 180 lbs hairy... very smelly.....likes peeps.... violent beyond belief.... strong fucker too..... but cullible....I think he's part French Candadian....

Ronin
26th February 04, 09:12 AM
Yeah, and I bet when you guys get grabbed, he just stops and lets you do all those things to him without fighting back.

WhiteShark
26th February 04, 09:23 AM
I haven't been grabbed in a bear hug "attack" since junior high. At the time I was untrained and much shorter/weaker than my opponent. HE was a hold-back bully, had a year of age and puberty on everyone in the class above me. So I got picked right up off the ground and he carried me a few feet to the toilet stall where he was going to flush my head down the bowl. Grip was arms down but above or right at the elbows. I squirmed tlike crazy and kicked the stall walls to make it difficult for him but he had buddies there to threaten me and get my legs in the stall. So The only thing I could think of was making him WANT to let go of me. I figured grossing himout in some way should do it. So I stuck my finger down my throat and puked on his arm a little. He immediately dropped me I pretended the squizing from the bearhug caused it so he felt dominant. they called me a pussy I guess and wandered off.

Gayest defense ever but it worked at the time. I can think of reams of better things to do now btw.

KhorneliusPraxx
26th February 04, 09:59 AM
Originally posted by ronin69
Out of couriosity, all you guys that posted a "defense", in your mind, what did your "attacker" look like?
And HOW did he grab you? and I don't mean WHERE , I mean HOW, How fast, how violently, how powerful was he? did he move you forward when he grabbed you, did he lift you? did he pull you back ?


My attacker looked exactly like Vern Troyer. He attacked with all the speed, violents, and power he could muster. He couldn't move me forward or backward. He reached as high as he could and bear hugged my right knee. I flung him off pretty easily and then punted him 10 yards.


FIRE THE LASER!:D

Ronin
26th February 04, 10:01 AM
Originally posted by KhorneliusPraxx
My attacker looked exactly like Vern Troyer. He attacked with all the speed, violents, and power he could muster. He couldn't move me forward or backward. He reached as high as he could and bear hugged my right knee. I flung him off pretty easily and then punted him 10 yards.


FIRE THE LASER!:D

*Bows in abject humilty to the great Praxx*

JackHanma
26th February 04, 10:19 AM
The attacker grabs you hard with a very tight grip with intent to quickly slam you to the ground. I've been working on some of the counters suggested here. Give me some time though. I don't perfect skills overnight.

DCS
26th February 04, 11:50 AM
Originally posted by JackHanma
quickly slam you to the ground. I've been working on some of the counters suggested here. Give me some time though. I don't perfect skills overnight.

Alternative scenario:

"The attacker grabs you hard with a very tight grip with intent to make you an easier target for two of his friends who are triying to soccer kick your balls"

You could win the MA Nobel Award.

HAPKO3
26th February 04, 12:53 PM
The first thing you have to do is grapevine the leg. That way your attacker will not be able to supplex you on your head. Everything else I posted is a lot more academic, as you are likely to both wind up on the ground as soon as he realizes that he can not supplex you. From there, you must scramble for position.

The defences I posted I learned in training. I've never been attacked like that in real life.

HAPKO3
26th February 04, 01:35 PM
Originally posted by DCS
Alternative scenario:

"The attacker grabs you hard with a very tight grip with intent to make you an easier target for two of his friends who are triying to soccer kick your balls"

You could win the MA Nobel Award.

In this case, you do what I described in the previous page.

HAPKO3
26th February 04, 01:42 PM
Also, if you don't feel tat you're getting lifted, don't bother with the grapeviene, rather lower your center of gravity and stay on your feet. It gives you much more leverage to free your hands.