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Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
5th April 16, 03:56 PM
The Panama Papers are a leaked set of 11.5 million confidential documents that provide detailed information on more than 214,000 offshore companies listed by the Panamanian corporate service provider Mossack Fonseca, including the identities of shareholders and directors of said offshore companies. The documents identify (as directors and shareholders of such companies) current government leaders from five countries — Argentina, Iceland, Saudi Arabia, Ukraine, and the United Arab Emirates — as well as government officials, close relatives, and close associates of various heads of government of more than 40 other countries, including Brazil, China, Peru, France, India, Malaysia, Mexico, Pakistan, Romania, Russia, South Africa, Spain, Syria, and the United Kingdom. On 5 April, the Prime Minister of Iceland Sigmundur Davíğ Gunnlaugsson announced his resignatio on following the scandal.

Comprising documents created since the 1970s that amount to 2.6 terabytes of data, the papers were supplied to the Süddeutsche Zeitung in August 2015 by an anonymous source, and subsequently to the U.S.-based International Consortium of Investigative Journalists (ICIJ). The papers were distributed to and analyzed by about 400 journalists at 107 media organizations in more than 80 countries.

The first news reports based on the set, along with 149 of the documents themselves, were published on 3 April 2016, and a full list of companies is to be released in early May 2016.

Wiki entry on the Panama Papers. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panama_Papers)

Big news in the UK at the moment, especially considering the UK governments rhetoric about stopping tax evasion. Which in itself is weird considering the amount of tax havens in the UK's sphere of influence.

So the intention of the thread is really about the idea of tax in general but I thought I'd bring this incident up as an ice breaker.

Remember, Jesus loves you!

Added bonus for NoB:



Yesterday, the Prime Minister wouldn't answer questions over his family's use of tax havens

Mr Cameron's father, Ian, paid no UK duty for 30 years on a firm run from the Bahamas.

When asked if any Cameron cash was hidden in offshore accounts, Downing St replied: “That’s a private matter.”

Source. (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/edward-snowden-just-summed-up-7691935)

To which the American Patriot Edward Snowden Tweeted, "Oh, now he's interested in privacy."

NoBowie
5th April 16, 05:01 PM
Flat tax. You pay the same percentage of your income as everyone else up to a certain amount then it caps. Most fair way I can think of.

The privilege of living in a country shouldn't cost me more than 25 percent of my income and shouldn't cost anyone more than a million bucks, no matter how much they make.

And... the folks employed at corporations pay taxes, essentially you are double taxing the company. So I think a flat corporate tax rate of 10 percent is just fine.

You run and register your firm from a different country?

That's fine. Your employees will still pay taxes on income, you will still pay income taxes. You are covered.

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
6th April 16, 11:01 AM
Surprised you went as high as 25%.

I'm still not convinced by a flat rate tax.

Feryk
6th April 16, 01:48 PM
http://www.moneytalksnews.com/a-flat-tax-the-good-the-bad-and-why-it-probably-wont-happen/

Whether you like it or not is entirely dependent on your ability to earn more money.

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
6th April 16, 02:17 PM
What are your thoughts about tax Ferky?

Feryk
6th April 16, 03:25 PM
I think it's been overcomplicated as a way of grabbing even more money without people objecting. If people actually saw all the taxes that are paid on each transaction -- they would become agitated. The accountants love a complex tax code, the politicians love a complex tax code - but who else?

It's a ridiculous thing to think about if you are business owner. How many hours does the business owner have to spend thinking about ways to reduce his tax?? Why? Because there ARE ways to reduce his tax. And it's worth paying an accountant $350/hr to come up with them.

If we adopted NoB's flat tax idea - it would take a very long time. We had one in Alberta - our provincial tax was a flat tax. I would have loved to have seen it adopted federally as well. Any losses of tax revenue from it would have been recouped from the extra economic stimulus it provided. Again, we have 11 years of our economy to look at to prove it. It works.

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
6th April 16, 04:03 PM
What are your thoughts on the Panama Papers?

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
6th April 16, 04:22 PM
https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/12920526_1058065324258655_2052043081527719322_n.jp g?oh=238ddf049ae6f2f1a1f1a56095d7375b&oe=57787652

NoBowie
6th April 16, 04:23 PM
When you get a quarter you put it in the piggy bank. The piggy bank is on a shelf in your closet. Your mom knows this and she checks on it every once in a while, so she knows when you put more money in or spend it.

Now one day, you might decide "I don't want mom to look at my money." So you go over to Johnny's house with an extra piggy bank that you're going to keep in his room. You write your name on it and put it in his closet. Johnny's mom is always very busy, so she never has time to check on his piggy bank. So you can keep yours there and it will stay a secret.

Now all the kids in the neighborhood think this is a good idea, and everyone goes to Johnny's house with extra piggy banks. Now Johnny's closet is full of piggy banks from everyone in the neighborhood.

One day, Johnny's mom comes home and sees all the piggy banks. She gets very mad and calls everyone's parents to let them know.

Now not everyone did this for a bad reason. Eric's older brother always steals from his piggy bank, so he just wanted a better hiding spot. Timmy wanted to save up to buy his mom a birthday present without her knowing. Sammy just did it because he thought it was fun. But many kids did do it for a bad reason. Jacob was stealing people's lunch money and didn't want his parents to figure it out. Michael was stealing money from his mom's purse. Fat Bobby's parents put him on a diet, and didn't want them to figure out when he was buying candy.

Now in real life, many very important people were just caught hiding their piggy banks at Johnny's house in Panama. Today their moms all found out. Pretty soon, we'll know more about which of these important people were doing it for bad reasons and which were doing it for good reasons.

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
6th April 16, 04:43 PM
Gee thanks NoB I think maybe even Doofa could understand it now.

NoBowie
6th April 16, 04:49 PM
Gee thanks NoB I think maybe even Doofa could understand it now.

No. He would get horny at the piggy part and skip distractedly over everything else.

Feryk
6th April 16, 04:56 PM
When you get a quarter you put it in the piggy bank. The piggy bank is on a shelf in your closet. Your mom knows this and she checks on it every once in a while, so she knows when you put more money in or spend it.

Now one day, you might decide "I don't want mom to look at my money." So you go over to Johnny's house with an extra piggy bank that you're going to keep in his room. You write your name on it and put it in his closet. Johnny's mom is always very busy, so she never has time to check on his piggy bank. So you can keep yours there and it will stay a secret.

Now all the kids in the neighborhood think this is a good idea, and everyone goes to Johnny's house with extra piggy banks. Now Johnny's closet is full of piggy banks from everyone in the neighborhood.

One day, Johnny's mom comes home and sees all the piggy banks. She gets very mad and calls everyone's parents to let them know.

Now not everyone did this for a bad reason. Eric's older brother always steals from his piggy bank, so he just wanted a better hiding spot. Timmy wanted to save up to buy his mom a birthday present without her knowing. Sammy just did it because he thought it was fun. But many kids did do it for a bad reason. Jacob was stealing people's lunch money and didn't want his parents to figure it out. Michael was stealing money from his mom's purse. Fat Bobby's parents put him on a diet, and didn't want them to figure out when he was buying candy.

Now in real life, many very important people were just caught hiding their piggy banks at Johnny's house in Panama. Today their moms all found out. Pretty soon, we'll know more about which of these important people were doing it for bad reasons and which were doing it for good reasons.

This is a pretty good little analogy, but in truth, it isn't the kids of the world hiding their banks at Johnny's house. It's the mothers, who have been squirreling away some of the family's monthly budget - for their own personal benefit. That's the issue people are having with this.

Üser Friendly
7th April 16, 12:39 AM
People use tax havens to avoid paying tax, end of story

There are no secret philanthropists squirreling money away in Panama to buy their country a new hospital

Robot Jesus
7th April 16, 01:13 AM
you need a progressive tax system to even show up on the human development index. so if we accept that as a truth is means that a flat tax means "fuck you, got mine", and abandon all future generations.

Syntactical Disruptorize
7th April 16, 02:54 AM
Your idiocy never ceases to impress me.

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
7th April 16, 05:16 AM
The Panama Papers thing is getting quite surreal over here.

HMRC's (the UK's equivalent of the US's IRS) buildings are privately owned off-shore for tax reasons. (http://indy100.independent.co.uk/article/a-reminder-that-hmrc-actually-rents-its-offices-from-a-company-registered-in-a-tax-haven--bJ2PgGt9eZ)

Global Radio thinks Corbyn (leader of the opposition in the UK parliament) should resign for asking Cameron (current Prime Minister) about his families tax status. (http://www.thecanary.co/2016/04/06/media-giant-just-jumped-camerons-aid-attacking-corbyn-instead-tweets/)

Pie of Hate
7th April 16, 06:43 AM
It's even worse in Iceland.

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
7th April 16, 06:49 AM
Panama Papers: Iceland PM Sigmundur Gunnlaugsson steps down (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35966412)

Üser Friendly
7th April 16, 07:14 AM
It's even worse in Iceland.

At least the Icelanders have a recent history of bring corporate criminals to account

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
7th April 16, 10:28 AM
Two Days After “Panama Papers” Released, IRS HQ to be Closed All Week After Basement Fire. (http://www.theeventchronicle.com/news/north-america/two-days-panama-papers-released-irs-hq-closed-week-basement-fire/#)

Feryk
7th April 16, 12:37 PM
you need a progressive tax system to even show up on the human development index. so if we accept that as a truth is means that a flat tax means "fuck you, got mine", and abandon all future generations.

Then the index is a fraud.

LOOK at what happened in YOUR OWN PROVINCE. Our provincial spending ballooned during the flat tax era? Know why? Because it actually creates an incentive to spend, whereas progressive taxes create an incentive to hide income. I'm seeing it RIGHT NOW as my 1%er clients are scrambling to hide money they would have otherwise paid taxes on and consumed. NOT shipped offshore - spent.

Instead, they are reducing their 'taxable footprint' to as low as possible - and investing tons of money with me and spending tons on legal and accounting bills. Why? BECAUSE IT'S WORTH IT.

Progressive tax systems are ingrained in the socialist lexicon as being 'fair'. Except that it actually doesn't work the way they think it does. And Alberta will be a case study in why not over the next four years. You watch, the price of oil will come back and our economy will STAY SLUGGISH. Unemployment will not recede back to the levels pre-bust, average incomes will stay down, and investment will happen more in Saskatchewan and BC than it does now.

Feryk
7th April 16, 12:38 PM
Two Days After “Panama Papers” Released, IRS HQ to be Closed All Week After Basement Fire. (http://www.theeventchronicle.com/news/north-america/two-days-panama-papers-released-irs-hq-closed-week-basement-fire/#)

Well, it was faster than shredding.

Robot Jesus
7th April 16, 12:51 PM
words


if you divide the federal budget by the canadian population you end up with about $8216 per person. that would be a crushing tax burden for the majoraty of canadians. The bulk of spending is on things that canadians would not ever part with, like education and healthcare. so is there any option other than progressive taxation?

NoBowie
7th April 16, 02:00 PM
is there any option other than progressive taxation?

Yes. It's called a flat tax. 10 percent of a 1 million dollar income is 100k. 10 percent of a 1000 income is 100 bucks.

You are also assuming every penny of government spend is warranted. BAD ASSUMPTION.

Robot Jesus
7th April 16, 02:41 PM
Yes. It's called a flat tax. 10 percent of a 1 million dollar income is 100k. 10 percent of a 1000 income is 100 bucks.

the number is actually about 20%, which is pretty close to what you say no one should ever have to pay


You are also assuming every penny of government spend is warranted. BAD ASSUMPTION.



there is waste and unneeded programs to be sure, but the vast majoraty of spending goes to big ticket items like healthcare and social security; you want to get in a political fight with old people?

Feryk
7th April 16, 02:49 PM
Yes. It's called a flat tax. 10 percent of a 1 million dollar income is 100k. 10 percent of a 1000 income is 100 bucks.

THIS. The assumption of a flat tax is a dramatic simplification of the tax code. You say that the average Canadian couldn't pay $8200 in tax. By your own math, THEY ALREADY ARE. Add up how much tax they pay on cigarettes, alchohol, in GST, etc. THEN add in the 'hidden' taxes and tariffs on certain goods (ie: did you know insurance policies have a tax levied on them internally?). Now imagine ALL of them were replaced by NoB's 10% flat tax. Hell, let's make it 15%.

The poor would pay much less than they do now. The rich would pay more. Why? The rich wouldn't be able to hide their income (Captial Gains exemption, small business deductions, holding company deferrals, CDA credits, etc., etc., etc.).

Generally the rule in tax avoidance (NOT evasion) is - if you are spending it, you are paying tax on it. SO...it gives the rich an incentive to pull their spending out of the economy. As an example, consider this - if a rich guy makes say, $1M/year, would you rather he buys a luxury sports car and renovates his mansion, employing several people and moving his money through the economy - OR- would you rather it sits in his Holdco - with the taxes only being paid on death - and if I do my job right - not even then?

Because this is what I do every day. And while I appreciate the business, as a Canadian, it sickens me that we use stupid tax regimes that ARE DESIGNED TO BE EXPLOITED. LOOK at the Tax Act (I dare you). It's fricking HUGE! And it doesn't need to be. Simple really is better.

Syntactical Disruptorize
7th April 16, 03:06 PM
if you divide the federal budget by the canadian population you end up with about $8216 per person. that would be a crushing tax burden for the majoraty of canadians. The bulk of spending is on things that canadians would not ever part with, like education and healthcare. so is there any option other than progressive taxation?

You dismiss Feryk's well reasoned statement and rebut with this sorites? Shut the fuck up.

Robot Jesus
7th April 16, 04:27 PM
divide the current budget by the population

the near 20% number comes from dividing the budget by GDP

granted I'm looking at a balanced budget, there are strong arguments for some deficit spending.

Also I just learned Australia has a shockingly high gdp per capita compared to the US or Canada.

Syntactical Disruptorize
7th April 16, 04:36 PM
He's explained two ways you're full of shit. Address him directly or shut the fuck up.

Feryk
7th April 16, 04:59 PM
http://www.indexmundi.com/g/r.aspx?v=67

Third way RJ is full of it.

US is 15th in the World. Canada is 20th. Aus is 21st.



Rank
Country
GDP - per capita (PPP) (US$)


1
Qatar (http://www.indexmundi.com/qatar/gdp_per_capita_(ppp).html)
102,100
http://www.indexmundi.com/img/g.gif


2
Liechtenstein (http://www.indexmundi.com/liechtenstein/gdp_per_capita_(ppp).html)
89,400
http://www.indexmundi.com/img/g.gif


3
Macau (http://www.indexmundi.com/macau/gdp_per_capita_(ppp).html)
88,700
http://www.indexmundi.com/img/g.gif


4
Bermuda (http://www.indexmundi.com/bermuda/gdp_per_capita_(ppp).html)
86,000
http://www.indexmundi.com/img/g.gif


5
Monaco (http://www.indexmundi.com/monaco/gdp_per_capita_(ppp).html)
85,500
http://www.indexmundi.com/img/g.gif


6
Luxembourg (http://www.indexmundi.com/luxembourg/gdp_per_capita_(ppp).html)
77,900
http://www.indexmundi.com/img/g.gif


7
Singapore (http://www.indexmundi.com/singapore/gdp_per_capita_(ppp).html)
62,400
http://www.indexmundi.com/img/g.gif


8
Jersey (http://www.indexmundi.com/jersey/gdp_per_capita_(ppp).html)
57,000
http://www.indexmundi.com/img/g.gif


9
Falkland Islands (Islas Malvinas) (http://www.indexmundi.com/falkland_islands_(islas_malvinas)/gdp_per_capita_(ppp).html)
55,400
http://www.indexmundi.com/img/g.gif


10
Norway (http://www.indexmundi.com/norway/gdp_per_capita_(ppp).html)
55,400
http://www.indexmundi.com/img/g.gif


11
San Marino (http://www.indexmundi.com/san_marino/gdp_per_capita_(ppp).html)
55,000
http://www.indexmundi.com/img/g.gif


12
Switzerland (http://www.indexmundi.com/switzerland/gdp_per_capita_(ppp).html)
54,800
http://www.indexmundi.com/img/g.gif


13
Brunei (http://www.indexmundi.com/brunei/gdp_per_capita_(ppp).html)
54,800
http://www.indexmundi.com/img/g.gif


14
Isle of Man (http://www.indexmundi.com/isle_of_man/gdp_per_capita_(ppp).html)
53,800
http://www.indexmundi.com/img/g.gif


15
United States (http://www.indexmundi.com/united_states/gdp_per_capita_(ppp).html)
52,800
http://www.indexmundi.com/img/g.gif


16
Hong Kong (http://www.indexmundi.com/hong_kong/gdp_per_capita_(ppp).html)
52,700
http://www.indexmundi.com/img/g.gif


17
Guernsey (http://www.indexmundi.com/guernsey/gdp_per_capita_(ppp).html)
44,600
http://www.indexmundi.com/img/g.gif


18
Cayman Islands (http://www.indexmundi.com/cayman_islands/gdp_per_capita_(ppp).html)
43,800
http://www.indexmundi.com/img/g.gif


19
Netherlands (http://www.indexmundi.com/netherlands/gdp_per_capita_(ppp).html)
43,300
http://www.indexmundi.com/img/g.gif


20
Canada (http://www.indexmundi.com/canada/gdp_per_capita_(ppp).html)
43,100
http://www.indexmundi.com/img/g.gif


21
Australia (http://www.indexmundi.com/australia/gdp_per_capita_(ppp).html)
43,000
http://www.indexmundi.com/img/g.gif

Feryk
7th April 16, 05:00 PM
You dismiss Feryk's well reasoned statement and rebut with this sorites? Shut the fuck up.

I'm guessing RJ didn't google sorites, or you'd be hurting his feelings.

Maybe he's just trolling me into doing his Econ homework....

Robot Jesus
7th April 16, 05:36 PM
I saw that source too, after I posted; wikipedia has a different one and I have no idea which is more reliable.


and to be clear I was generally responding to NOB.

I believe a simplified tax code is a good idea, but completely simplifying it seems like a wet dream of the moneyed class. For all of my politically aware life there has been a push from the right to flatten the tax code, publicly for the sparrow eating horseshit reason, but honestly because it serves the wealthy through a perverse view on fairness. I am deeply suspicious of any argument that postulates that powerful men are fighting for something because it hurts them so badly. I fully recognise that a completely simplified tax code would probably be better then the status quo, but perhaps a middle path is better than either?

Syntactical Disruptorize
7th April 16, 05:37 PM
So you care more about who argues something than about the merits? Now you really need to shut the fuck up.

Robot Jesus
7th April 16, 05:55 PM
NOb argues that "GOT MINE, BEST SYSTEM EVER NEEDS TO BE MORE FAVORABLE TO THE PEOPLE WITH MONEY; SHITS NOT STACKED ENOUGH IN THEIR FAVOR BECAUSE WE ARE AWESOME"

so objectivism.

Feryk was making an argument I am sympathetic toward, but think is ultimately overly simplistic. tax breaks are a great tool for the government to encourage behaviours that are in the public interest, but are not in the individual economic interest. absolutely we should rip up the tax codes, but I think a flat tax is still a bad idea.


now if you meant I don't trust arguments from millionaires, I figure their general push should be taken into account. The Koch brothers, and their proxies, are as close to Rearden as they get, talk about anything but taxation they are all about the kill or be killed nature of market economics; bring up taxation they are suddenly change their tone about how it will be so beneficial to the common man. That makes me more suspicious than Warren Buffet wondering why his secretary pays less tax than he does.

Syntactical Disruptorize
7th April 16, 06:04 PM
Why is an argument from a millionaire less valid than an argument from someone not a millionaire? I think your biases are less rational than theirs.

Robot Jesus
7th April 16, 07:17 PM
It's not, but when a person is arguing tooth and nail and self interest from one perspective, and arguing the same point from a place of kindness and mutual good the next moment; I suspect the veracity of the second perspective and think it little more than a ploy.


millionaires can absolutely have the greater good in mind, but those rarely focus on how awful the progressive taxation system is.

Syntactical Disruptorize
7th April 16, 08:04 PM
It's not, but when a person is arguing tooth and nail and self interest from one perspective, and arguing the same point from a place of kindness and mutual good the next moment; I suspect the veracity of the second perspective and think it little more than a ploy.
The second perspective is generally a ploy. That's no less true of socialists than of millionaires. Try thinking for a fucking change.

Üser Friendly
8th April 16, 12:17 AM
He's explained two ways you're full of shit. Address him directly or shut the fuck up.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

This is the funniest shit I have read for a long time

Coming from you of all people, who has vicarious debates because they are to pussyfied to address others directly

have you had your irony gland removed?

I've got an idea, why don't you shut the fuck the fuck up and stop trying to crawl up Freky's arse?

He's not into old, fat, bald guys with no balls

Üser Friendly
8th April 16, 12:27 AM
I'm guessing RJ didn't google sorites, or you'd be hurting his feelings.

Maybe he's just trolling me into doing his Econ homework....

Cy meant to type stories but isn't great at spelling

Another good reason to get that dictionary

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
8th April 16, 08:28 AM
I must say I'm swayed by Ferky's arguments.

I'm open to a more robust rebuttal (as the data manger said to the communist lesbian) than RJ has presented so far. Anyone?

Pie of Hate
8th April 16, 08:45 AM
I've been in favour of a flat tax rate for ages but people I've discussed it with don't seem impressed. These were average Joes too, not Panama account holding millionaires.

Feryk
8th April 16, 10:19 AM
NOb argues that "GOT MINE, BEST SYSTEM EVER NEEDS TO BE MORE FAVORABLE TO THE PEOPLE WITH MONEY; SHITS NOT STACKED ENOUGH IN THEIR FAVOR BECAUSE WE ARE AWESOME"

so objectivism.

Feryk was making an argument I am sympathetic toward, but think is ultimately overly simplistic. tax breaks are a great tool for the government to encourage behaviours that are in the public interest, but are not in the individual economic interest. absolutely we should rip up the tax codes, but I think a flat tax is still a bad idea.


now if you meant I don't trust arguments from millionaires, I figure their general push should be taken into account. The Koch brothers, and their proxies, are as close to Rearden as they get, talk about anything but taxation they are all about the kill or be killed nature of market economics; bring up taxation they are suddenly change their tone about how it will be so beneficial to the common man. That makes me more suspicious than Warren Buffet wondering why his secretary pays less tax than he does.

I think you can count on virtually ALL arguments to based on self interest. You just have to figure out where the incentives lie. Study HOW something benefits a person/class/etc. and their behavior becomes more transparent.

Politicians like a complex tax code. Why? Because of exactly what you said - they use it as a tool of social engineering. They can incent behaviour that would otherwise not occur. Ergo, politicians use the tax code to control us. Sometimes, that's a very good thing, sometimes not.

Rich people love to bitch about taxes, and claim they pay far too much tax. The people this fucks in the ass the most are people like NoB. NoB is paid well, but he lacks any sophisticated tax deferral strategies. He also likes to spend money. It is why NoB will probably be Upper Middle Class most of his life.

Consider the owner of NoB's company as an example. A tech billionaire - his percentage of tax on his overall holdings each year would be a fraction of a percent of what NoB pays. The owner of said company uses a lot of corporate deferrals, tax credits, etc. to reduce the amount of reportable income each year. He also makes a ridiculous amount of money far in excess of what he needs to fund his admittedly extravagant lifestyle. Remember rule #1 - if you are spending it, you are taxed on it. In his case, most of his revenue (note that I didn't say income) is deferred, or re-invested, or used in some other way that doesn't involve him buying another Ferrari.

Also, you can consider that our favorite billionaire probably has a charitable foundation (all the billionaires do, eventually). They can put Mrs. Billionaire, and Billionaire Jr. on the board of the charity and then fund it for several hundred million (billion) dollars. Now, that charity doesn't ACTUALLY have to do much that is charitable, but you can pay the board members a metric fuckton of money and flow a TON of expenses through the foundation - all of which is viewed favorably from a tax point of view. Athletes do this all the time.

Now, on paper, most billionaires pay a LOT more tax than you or I do. That is true. But as a percentage of their overall wealth? Fuck, no.

The reason that the wealthy tend to push for a flat tax is simple - they are now spending millions both corporately and privately on accounting schemes and strategies. These costs now rival the amount of tax they pay. They are laboring under the misapprehension that a flat tax will make this cheaper, but they can still lobby for loopholes to hide income. A true flat tax has NO loopholes. Corporate and individual tax rates are THE SAME, so earnings will only stay in the company if they are needed for future growth.

Poor people who argue against the flat tax feel that they already have nothing so asking them to pay anything is too much. They don't really understand what they are already paying. RJ was simply wrong. Here is evidence:

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/canadians-pay-42-of-income-in-tax-more-than-they-spend-on-food-shelter-clothing-combined

The truth is that the current system downloads more taxes to the poor - and most of those taxes cannot be recovered. Being poor sucks. Being poor and being screwed by a system you don't understand is worse.

Feryk
8th April 16, 10:29 AM
Sorry for the wall o' text. TL;DR version:

Poor people pay more in tax as a percentage of their income under the current system than rich people. By a lot.

resolve
9th April 16, 06:57 AM
Excuse me, but that is hardly a wall sir.

And I think you have the correct on that, except for the fact that the poor will almost always get their taxes back in full from a tax refund if applied for (ie: "doing your taxes" is usually this process in the USA for the majority) but it's still like giving the government a huge ass loan with your money without getting interest back. Most people honestly don't even have to legally pay taxes on their wages but do so anyways, including myself, because that's how the system is set up and once you're in it's extremely hard to get out.

Flat tax all the way!

Feryk
9th April 16, 09:48 PM
Resolve, that is exclusively income tax. The poor pay way more taxes than that.

NoBowie
9th April 16, 10:36 PM
https://imgur.com/Y1c2cRh.jpg

resolve
10th April 16, 01:11 AM
Resolve, that is exclusively income tax. The poor pay way more taxes than that.

Sales tax. Property tax.

Added up is maybe a quarter of Income Tax for a poor person. How do I know? I've been poor as dirt before, living out of my car, and counted every penny and those were the only other taxes I paid.

Sales tax on all goods and sundry at like 3%-6% depending on area I was in. Gas slightly higher. Property tax on my broke down car at the time was like $60 a year.

Even if you count up all the stupid "hidden" taxes like police quotas on traffic citations, speed cams, parking tickets, and of course the complete scam that is car insurance (that you HAVE to have or get thrown under the bus in traffic court and when you finally get into an accident they don't pay out and then make you pay even higher fees) then you'd get to almost the amount of income tax for a poor person with all of that combined.

By the way I'm almost paying 1/4 of my income as federal tax, state tax, city tax, and Social Security (which is really just another tax for my generation since I can pretty much guarantee you I will NEVER see that money as they are pilfering it to pay for all the big government programs they can't pay for). And what's even crazier is the money is taxed before it even gets to me, to only be taxed again.

Feryk
11th April 16, 02:03 PM
https://imgur.com/Y1c2cRh.jpg

I'd settle for having all the economists understanding economics.

Feryk
11th April 16, 02:05 PM
Sales tax. Property tax.

Added up is maybe a quarter of Income Tax for a poor person. How do I know? I've been poor as dirt before, living out of my car, and counted every penny and those were the only other taxes I paid.

Sales tax on all goods and sundry at like 3%-6% depending on area I was in. Gas slightly higher. Property tax on my broke down car at the time was like $60 a year.

Even if you count up all the stupid "hidden" taxes like police quotas on traffic citations, speed cams, parking tickets, and of course the complete scam that is car insurance (that you HAVE to have or get thrown under the bus in traffic court and when you finally get into an accident they don't pay out and then make you pay even higher fees) then you'd get to almost the amount of income tax for a poor person with all of that combined.

By the way I'm almost paying 1/4 of my income as federal tax, state tax, city tax, and Social Security (which is really just another tax for my generation since I can pretty much guarantee you I will NEVER see that money as they are pilfering it to pay for all the big government programs they can't pay for). And what's even crazier is the money is taxed before it even gets to me, to only be taxed again.

Yes, those are two. Fees and tolls, as well as tariffs on anything imported are others. And these lead to the ever popular 'tax on tax' system that really fucks the poor - but they do not know it.

NoBowie
11th April 16, 02:35 PM
And these lead to the ever popular 'tax on tax' system that really fucks the poor - but they do not know it.

Nor do they know that those type of taxes are mostly the work of the left, their champions.

Feryk
11th April 16, 03:20 PM
The ultimate end goal of the hard left is to have a populace that is dependent on the government for its existence. If you consider that motive when reading their arguments, it gets a lot more disturbing.

Having said that, the hard right's religious theocracy/fascism is also to be avoided.

Feryk
11th April 16, 03:24 PM
http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/canadian-politics/from-socialists-to-good-old-boys-a-taxonomy-of-the-ndps-edmonton-factions

A lovely summary of the different factions in Canada at the moment.

I like the 'we don't like labels caucus'.

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
11th April 16, 05:22 PM
The ultimate end goal of the hard left is to have a populace that is dependent on the government for its existence. If you consider that motive when reading their arguments, it gets a lot more disturbing.

Having said that, the hard right's religious theocracy/fascism is also to be avoided.

I think your right but I'd add that there are libertarian factions in both the hard left & right.

Feryk
12th April 16, 02:55 PM
I have no problem with the concept of libertarianism. Sometimes, though, I really don't like the way it translates to real world issues.

resolve
14th April 16, 07:15 PM
Fees and tolls, as well as tariffs on anything imported are others.


Those are practically non-existent for someone making under 25k a year. Like I said, I've been there. There aren't many areas in the USA where toll roads and bridges -have- to be crossed for an existence supporting job. They usually exist in richer areas of the country and plow through a straighter line on a commute path (roads aren't really that much better though, Pennsylvania Turnpike can kiss my ass).

I now live right near Washington DC and can easily get around without taking one toll road or bridge. Eventually if I do it's like $2-$4, maybe two/three times a year when I absolutely have to get somewhere.

Poor people don't really import much aside from something on Ebay or other internet shopping sites where they can get knockoff stuff from Taiwan or China. They may buy import cars... but only really second or third hand since buying new is absolutely retarded on that kind of income.

By the by, stuff made in Mexico and China and sold in big corporate chains is usually 10x less expensive, even with tariffs, than things made in the USA.


Again, the biggest hits are Federal tax/programs, State tax, city tax, and then the 'stealth' taxes like tickets and fines.

Of course if you're absolutely destitute and do not know your rights you can easily end up in a cycle of doom trying to pay off a fine since cities and states now can defer them to third party private collection agencies who will tack on interest and fees endlessly to keep the person paying for life, or put a lien on any and all property they may have (ie: nothing but profits for these leeches) and then forcing them to go to a cash for car title or payday loans place that will burn a hole in any and all money they may have had. This has happened quite a lot recently... and is responsible for more than one "new money millionaire" out in the Midwest buying off land and setting up mansions... but that's more the outcome of the government privatizing an extremely simple issue due to nightmarish bureaucracy and people with no moral scruples taking advantage of it than a direct "me tax you" kind of thing.

Feryk
15th April 16, 10:30 AM
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-03-25/list-97-taxes-americans-pay-every-year

Look through the list. Sure, some of them are based on consumption and poor people pay less, but some of them are unavoidable or baked into other costs (fuel taxes are included in your bus pass fees, for example).

resolve
15th April 16, 11:49 PM
Those are practically non-existent for someone making under 25k a year.


Yeah, bus passes and other baked in taxes like water and stuff when paying rent would be something I missed, but that's about it and to be honest those are really, really insubstantial. Pretty much everything else on that list is for people who can afford to travel or who are nursing a habit of one kind or another.

Feryk
16th April 16, 01:04 PM
As I said: Rule #1 - If you are spending it, you are paying tax on it.

MerkinMuffly
16th April 16, 01:52 PM
Don't waste time trying to talk sense into resolve.
It has no net effect.

Feryk
16th April 16, 02:46 PM
Those are practically non-existent for someone making under 25k a year.

WARNING - MASSIVE WALL O TEXT: This made me curious, so I looked it up - here is what I found:

http://www.businessinsider.com/half-of-americans-made-around-25000-or-less-in-2010-says-social-security-department-2011-10

Looks like there are A LOT of americans who make this little amount of money.

http://www.taxformcalculator.com/tax/26000.html

This says, in California at least, that your take home pay on $26,000 is $21, 671. Which is $4329 in direct income tax. If you assume that the average person saves nothing at this rate, then they pay another $1625 in sales tax - for a total of $5954.33. So...it looks like about half of your citizens live below the poverty line and still payout 23% of their overall income in just TWO forms of tax.

Now, they may get credits and deductions, etc. This is simply based on reported income of $26,000. But THAT is what your poor people pay.

Consider if they make $120,000/year:

http://www.taxformcalculator.com/tax/120000.html

Take home is $78801. Sound pretty good, right? This guy remits $41199 in income tax. This guy should have enough money to be able save something. How much? Let's use the average:

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-states/personal-savings

In the US, it's a whopping 5.4% of income - so this guy would save $6480 annually into his 401K plan - and not pay tax on it.

The rest - he spends. Subject to sales tax. Again, at 7.5% - $5910 in sales tax. Total taxes in a year: $47109 OR 39% of total income.

Socialists would call this a good start - and see room for him to pay more --- BUT this is NOT what happens. Enter the financial advisor:

I would ask Johnny NoB if he likes pissing away 40% of his earnings to tax. Johnny works pretty hard, so he's not really cool with that. I would ask him to forgo his next Audi purchase and only have one vehicle per household member. Perhaps buying out the lease and driving it for 8 years instead of 3. Perhaps he might consider NOT living in his new McMansion, but rather something a little more sedate - for awhile.

I really want Johnny NoB to get used to living on less than he earns - for now. He still gets to spend this money - just not right now. Hopefully, he keeps earning more and more as his career progresses - but he should not have to in order to maintain his current lifestyle. Let's say that by a small miracle - I am successful in this endeavor. He contributes a full $18000 to his 401K plan. Now, his income is only 102,000. His after tax income drops - to 68,000 per year. His overall sales tax will drop to $5100. Now he is paying total taxes of $39100. This represents total tax of 32.6% of income.

Using a single - overly simple - strategy. If I layer a couple more together - I can get that number down to lower than 22%. Sure Johnny NoB doesn't get to spend everything today - but he WILL be spending it eventually. And he pays proportionately lower tax on his income than all the poor people he steps over on his climb up the ladder.

TL;DR version - Johnny NoB needs a pro to help him shelter his income from the evil tax regime. He can afford one, so he uses them to end up paying less taxes than all the poor around him. How do you like progressive taxation now?

resolve
16th April 16, 04:52 PM
As I said: Rule #1 - If you are spending it, you are paying tax on it.

That's sales tax, which I already covered.




This says, in California at least, that your take home pay on $26,000 is $21, 671. Which is $4329 in direct income tax. If you assume that the average person saves nothing at this rate, then they pay another $1625 in sales tax - for a total of $5954.33. So...it looks like about half of your citizens live below the poverty line and still payout 23% of their overall income in just TWO forms of tax.

Yeah I said that already lol. What sucks for me is now that I'm finally over the poverty line is that I don't get all my taxes back on a return and I'm not making that much over really. No "loaning the government money" except for a small return. Just straight pain there, since it's hitting me for pretty much how much more I'm making over the poverty line lol.


Now, they may get credits and deductions, etc. This is simply based on reported income of $26,000. But THAT is what your poor people pay.

The standard deduction for a single person with no other deductions/credits is $6,300. It's not just may. Poor people also get the Earned Income Credit. Now if they have family, education expenses, job expenses, moving expenses, et cetera it goes even further, and it's very likely that they will actually get money back from the government that's more than what they were taxed. I've had that happen before, just a few years ago in fact made about several hundred more back on my refund than I was taxed due to a few credits I was eligible for. This doesn't of course take into account invisible taxes like we discussed. But again, those are miniscule in comparison to the big heavy hits they are taking from income tax and sales tax.



How do you like progressive taxation now?

Never did, because of the loopholes and other stupidity involved, but I'm guessing that was directed at "Johnny NoB". I'm a flat tax man myself and don't believe in taxing wages or that the IRS is even lawful.


How do I know all this? Because I used to work for a tax company. Doing tech support for their product, but 90% of my questions were directly related to actually doing taxes and I had to know my shit.

Feryk
16th April 16, 05:03 PM
Careful. That line of reasoning really doesn't work out well for those who claim it. Suffice it to say, whether or not it's lawful, it IS the law now.

resolve
16th April 16, 05:20 PM
Careful. That line of reasoning really doesn't work out well for those who claim it. Suffice it to say, whether or not it's lawful, it IS the law now.

Only via contractual agreement. The government does several really slippery dishonest things to get people to enter into contract with it, which they then use contract law, which is lawful, to enshrine edicts and codes and all sorts of other bullshit into "the law".

That's why they can still sit there and say that paying taxes is voluntary but then punish people who don't... because somewhere along the line they entered into a contract with the government.

It is possible to get out, have had several people I know do so... but the process is long and painful and definitely involves going to court at some point and may spend a night or two in jail for a bench warrant due to a magistrate not understanding the law and issuing one when someone challenges jurisdiction or something else. And you really, really have to know your legalese, which I'm just now learning. But to them, knowing their rights and freedoms is more important than any hassles they have. At the moment, with me now just getting my life back on track... I can't face a battle like that so I play along with the system I'm stuck in.

MerkinMuffly
17th April 16, 11:13 PM
Yeah bro it must be really hard being a white christian male in the US.

Feryk
18th April 16, 10:59 AM
Only via contractual agreement. The government does several really slippery dishonest things to get people to enter into contract with it, which they then use contract law, which is lawful, to enshrine edicts and codes and all sorts of other bullshit into "the law".

That's why they can still sit there and say that paying taxes is voluntary but then punish people who don't... because somewhere along the line they entered into a contract with the government.

It is possible to get out, have had several people I know do so... but the process is long and painful and definitely involves going to court at some point and may spend a night or two in jail for a bench warrant due to a magistrate not understanding the law and issuing one when someone challenges jurisdiction or something else. And you really, really have to know your legalese, which I'm just now learning. But to them, knowing their rights and freedoms is more important than any hassles they have. At the moment, with me now just getting my life back on track... I can't face a battle like that so I play along with the system I'm stuck in.

Believe this...if it were that simple, every rich person in America would be doing it as a matter of course.

It isn't.

And it will hurt you more than help you.

resolve
18th April 16, 07:42 PM
Believe this...if it were that simple, every rich person in America would be doing it as a matter of course.

It isn't.

And it will hurt you more than help you.

That's not really true.

The reason rich people wouldn't be able to get away with it is because most of their wealth is generated from investments, interest, business profits, and other ventures that generate capital. All of those things are actually fair game for tax.

What is under contention is direct wages. IE: I do some work for you and you pay me for my time and effort.

resolve
18th April 16, 07:44 PM
Yeah bro it must be really hard being a white christian male in the US.

Nobody's complaining about race or religion here... except you, just now.

MerkinMuffly
18th April 16, 11:40 PM
I'm about to put your dumb ass on ignore as well.

MerkinMuffly
19th April 16, 02:02 AM
I'm a flat tax man myself and don't believe in taxing wages or that the IRS is even lawful.
Um, yeah, except for that little trifle called the Constitution.

BTW, you might ask yourself why the republicons have such a huge boner for a flat tax.

Üser Friendly
19th April 16, 07:57 AM
I'm about to rage quit again.

Cy...hold me!

Feryk
19th April 16, 09:38 AM
I'm about to put your dumb ass on ignore as well.

You know you can't quit him...you would never know when he completed his research. :)

MerkinMuffly
19th April 16, 09:46 AM
You've just made up my mind for me.
Blocked.

Feryk
19th April 16, 09:52 AM
You're welcome?

MerkinMuffly
19th April 16, 10:02 AM
Should've done it years ago.

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
19th April 16, 10:08 AM
Jesus forgives you.

MerkinMuffly
19th April 16, 08:24 PM
Yeah, cuz I was really worried about that.

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
20th April 16, 04:45 AM
Jesus would never put you on his ignore list.

Feryk
20th April 16, 09:41 AM
...but you absolutely can put him on yours.

MerkinMuffly
20th April 16, 11:46 AM
Jesus put you on his ignore list.

Yes, but according to the other guy on my ignore list, Jesus will address my concerns later.

Cullion
25th April 16, 02:54 PM
Only via contractual agreement. The government does several really slippery dishonest things to get people to enter into contract with it, which they then use contract law, which is lawful, to enshrine edicts and codes and all sorts of other bullshit into "the law".

That's why they can still sit there and say that paying taxes is voluntary but then punish people who don't... because somewhere along the line they entered into a contract with the government.

It is possible to get out, have had several people I know do so... but the process is long and painful and definitely involves going to court at some point and may spend a night or two in jail for a bench warrant due to a magistrate not understanding the law and issuing one when someone challenges jurisdiction or something else. And you really, really have to know your legalese, which I'm just now learning. But to them, knowing their rights and freedoms is more important than any hassles they have. At the moment, with me now just getting my life back on track... I can't face a battle like that so I play along with the system I'm stuck in.

This is 'freeman on the land' stuff. Beware of that siren song. It blends together archaic but true things about the law, with conspiracy theory, with wishful thinking about how they think the law ought to work.

As Feryk said, it doesn't usually work. And it especially doesn't work when you're dealing with central government revenue.

MerkinMuffly
25th April 16, 05:57 PM
Render unto yobama and evething'l be aight.

Feryk
25th April 16, 06:32 PM
As a contractor, you must have a tax guy. You'd be crazy not to.

Has he been able to save you much?

Feryk
25th April 16, 07:08 PM
More on Flat Tax:

Apparently, a number of former communist countries have adopted this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_tax#Tax_effects

I decided to look at the most recent introduction of the flat tax - Hungary.


The Hungarian economy advanced 1 percent on the quarter in the last three months of 2015, accelerating from a downwardly revised 0.6 percent growth in the previous period and matching preliminary estimates. It was the strongest growth rate since the second quarter of 2014 as household consumption expanded by 0.8 percent, government expenditure by 1.6 percent and fixed investment grew by 1.7 percent. In external trade, both exports and imports increased by 0.6 percent. Year-on-year, the GDP advanced 3.2 percent. Considering full 2015 the economy expanded 2.9 percent. GDP Growth Rate in Hungary averaged 0.56 percent from 1996 until 2015, reaching an all time high of 2 percent in the first quarter of 2002 and a record low of -3.90 percent in the first quarter of 2009. GDP Growth Rate in Hungary is reported by the Hungarian Central Statistical Office.


http://www.tradingeconomics.com/hungary/gdp-growth

After a dip in 2012, it appears to be a solid growth economy averaging 3-4% annually. Not bad.

Next, how the tax burden is structured:

https://www.oecd.org/tax/revenue-statistics-hungary.pdf

14% is income tax from people.
4% is income tax from Corporations
44% is taxes on Goods and Services of which 24% is VAT
33% is Social Security contributions,<--- Holy shit.

Overall, Hungary's tax burden is just slightly above the OECD average at 38.4% - Higher than the US or Great Britain, but not as high as Norway, Denmark, etc.

http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.MKTP.KD.ZG/countries/1W-HU?display=graph

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Accordingly, Hungary now has a GDP growth rate slightly above the world average when prior to 2012, it was consistently lower. I am certain there are other factors at play here, but I believe the flat tax has contributed to this phenomenon, especially when you consider the percentage of taxes raised from VAT and other consumption based taxes compared to income tax.

MerkinMuffly
25th April 16, 08:41 PM
As a contractor, you must have a tax guy. You'd be crazy not to.

Has he been able to save you much?
I use a big name tax firm. Their fee is a pittance compared to the money they save me.

MerkinMuffly
25th April 16, 08:43 PM
And no, not some H&R Block type firm.

Pie of Hate
26th April 16, 01:33 AM
I registered the company in Panama.

Feryk
26th April 16, 10:01 AM
I use a big name tax firm. Their fee is a pittance compared to the money they save me.

Exactly. 'Wealthy' people use experts because they are worth it.

MerkinMuffly
26th April 16, 10:38 AM
They have a team of experts in each particular field of tax law and my papers go through each office to be checked for possible deductions/liabilities. When there is ambiguous language in the code, the pie is always cut in my favor.

Feryk
26th April 16, 12:56 PM
And what is your overall ratio of tax to profit?

And what would it be if you didn't have these guys?

MerkinMuffly
26th April 16, 04:18 PM
Not something I'm remotely interested in calculating.

The fact that they can do the taxes cheaper than if I paid myself to do it is enough reason.

Additionally, the fact that they keep up on every latest nuance of the tax code and can therefore save me every last dime and minimize the risk of an audit is just gravy.

Feryk
26th April 16, 04:25 PM
Not something I'm remotely interested in calculating.


:aetsch: Totally understandable. Sorry, my inner geek is going full bore into this tax thing.