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resolve
26th February 16, 06:19 AM
C6FWbrvSWk0

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/save-steward-wood#/

Communities like this little place in the UK: blending new science and tech with nature and old-school living techniques that just so happen feed into sustainability; as well as new (and old) tech to bring food production to neighborhoods and cities are the way forward. There are more arable acres of land than there are humans on the earth, 7.69 billion acres of arable land in the world and 7.4 billion people in the world, (and much more that can be recovered with permaculture that can recover vast swaths of desert and with proper city planning a city could easily feed itself). You can grow up to 6,000 lbs of food on 1/10th of an acre if you really wanted to, which is far far more than a family would ever need. Abundance awaits and can fuel a fully modern society and large populations without destroying nature and the beautiful countryside, if we'd only plan for it.

It stands in stark contrast to the world powers' plan of causing more and more increasing strife while simultaneously cordoning off most of nature into parks so that mass depopulation is followed by small city communities with a bizarro nature cult.

So of course doing anything this way is going to be met with harsh legal resistance, especially where "parks" are involved. This place is trying to raise money to afford a planning lawyer to go before committee.

Üser Friendly
26th February 16, 07:12 AM
Forget Permaculture. It will not feed the world, plus it has been politicised by the Crusties

It's nice on a small scale as a hobby, but will never compete with mechanised agriculture in terms of food production, let alone energy crop production

Pie of Hate
26th February 16, 07:48 AM
If the land (if they really do own it and haven't just claimed it) didn't come with pre-existing permissions to build dwellings, landscape, change of use etc. then fuck em. The should have gone through the proper channels in the first place. They don't mention the grounds on which they think they'll win an appeal, which is odd for a hippie land case, so give them nothing but a hot bath.

GodsTM damn stinking hippies.

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
26th February 16, 08:29 AM
Pie is the new Snake!!!

resolve
26th February 16, 08:42 AM
Pie volunteers to be among the first to be culled by NWO, after taking a long walk down bureaucracy lane to secure his "rights".

Doof believes old-European-style shitbucket farming with a heaping splash of industrial ag will feed the world :/.

I am sad.

Pie of Hate
26th February 16, 09:53 AM
They could have gone for retrospective planning and building regs. compliance, then they wouldn't have to beg.

"Look at us. We're all smug and off the grid and everything! ...Erm... Can we have £38,000?" The only thing worse than a stinking hippy is a stinking begging hippy.

Pie of Hate
26th February 16, 10:00 AM
Steward Wood has a covenant in place to preserve the peace. (http://www.woodlands.co.uk/pdf/steward-wood.pdf)

I'll have to look a bit deeper but I bet it prohibits using the woodlands as a dwelling area.

Fucking stinking,begging, contract breaking hippies!

Feryk
26th February 16, 11:28 AM
How long before they start using 'Freeman on the land' arguments?

Pie of Hate
26th February 16, 11:47 AM
I think we should all get together and burn them out.

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
26th February 16, 11:47 AM
There are similar arguments used in such circles.

Whereas the Freemen make appeals to common law & the like, within these circles arguments usually follow various schools of Anarchism to justify their use of the land, Anarcho-Primitivism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-primitivism) in particular.

Üser Friendly
26th February 16, 12:28 PM
Doof believes old-European-style shitbucket farming with a heaping splash of industrial ag will feed the world :/.

I am sad.

So you disagree with using shit (manure) as fertilizer?

Good luck with the food growing

Have you ever tried digging a grass field?

it is labourious, arduous work. Ive done it plenty

Have you ever watched a tractor plough the same field in 1% of the time with minimal labour?

I think when you talk about Permaculture, what you really mean is sustainable farming, which I'm all for, so cheer up hippy

Feryk
26th February 16, 04:16 PM
When it comes to fertilizer and various forms of bucketry, I will defer to doofa as our resident expert.

Pie of Hate
26th February 16, 04:58 PM
These hippies should be on fire by now. Come on people!

Harpy
26th February 16, 07:53 PM
Leave Cullion alone!!

Pie of Hate
27th February 16, 03:55 AM
The only timber hut I can imagine Cullion living in would be a luxury Austrian ski lodge.

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
27th February 16, 09:25 AM
Sounds a bit too European for Cullion

Üser Friendly
27th February 16, 09:46 AM
Come on resolve

I've got loads of data on calories per hectare using mechanised agricultural practices to compare to yours for food grown using Permacultural methods

Don't let me down now

Pie of Hate
27th February 16, 02:26 PM
Sounds a bit too European for Cullion

He an always put it to the vote if he wants to leave.

resolve
27th February 16, 07:17 PM
So you disagree with using shit (manure) as fertilizer?

No? Where are you getting that from? I mentioned shitbucket to the idea that you have to be out there all day every day toiling in the fields to the point where you would need such an item.


Have you ever tried digging a grass field?

I actually dug a compost pit three days ago in a grass field. One of many. And am in process of digging a swale on contour, postponed due to frosty ground at the moment.


it is labourious, arduous work. Ive done it plenty

You don't say.


Have you ever watched a tractor plough the same field in 1% of the time with minimal labour?

Then why are you doing it by hand? Also why are you plowing furrows to begin with? To benefit monoculture?


I think when you talk about Permaculture, what you really mean is sustainable farming, which I'm all for, so cheer up hippy

Not really. By permaculture I'm talking about the Australian systems that are being propogated worldwide (even in deserts), at whatever scale, that have been invented by or in progress of being reclaimed from ancient farming cultures by Bill Mollison, David Holmgren, and Geoff Lawton.

The key to permaculture is setting up systems that don't need to be constantly cycled, fertilized, and pesticided like Euro-style monoculture systems and the key to that is soil science.

resolve
27th February 16, 07:47 PM
I will say that the one really big advantage of monoculture modern industrial ag is mechanical harvest whereas most permaculture systems have to be harvested by hand to not disturb the systems.

So modern ag is like this:

- Plow furrows into large expansive fields. Most of the soil, built up over hundreds/thousands of years gets dried out with massive sun exposure and turns to dust.
- Soil is leeched of nutrients by the plants and exposure. Vast amounts of fertilizer and crop rotation are required to get nutrients back into the soil.
- Most of the fertilizer nutrients are extremely water soluble. These systems are not designed for water retention in biomass, so you run into the massive runoff problem causing algal blooms and also contaminatied groundwater.
- Big harvesters (combines/tree shakers and whatnot) come around into the fields and easily strip the harvest.
- Every now and then a field is allowed to go fallow so as to not completely deplete it into unusable land... after a season or two the recovering species are plowed back into the earth and the cycle starts over again.
- This doesn't even account for the amount of pesticides needed to protect the large monoculture fields from opportunistic parasites.

**** THIS IS WHY WHENEVER HOUSING DEVELOPMENTS ARE BUILT THEY TRUCK OFF THE TOPSOIL, usually created from forests and natural systems over hundreds and thousands of years... TO SELL TO MONOCULTURE FARMERS BECAUSE THEIR SOIL IS PISS POOR ****


Permaculture is like this:

- (IF land needs more or less water retention) Build different styles of earthworks using smart design.
- (IF there are unwanted species of plants) Start spreading layers of sheet mulch (manure layer, organic clippings layer, cardboard/paper/leaf layers, hay layer on top) to kill unwanted species by depriving them of sunlight and to also propagate soil species. Different setups can also be used to change the PH of the soil to desired levels without harsh chemicals. Sheet mulch may not even need to be used and there are many other ways of building soil that are included into permaculture design.
- Design around light level zones and plant nutrient needs (including training vine plants around harvest trees) and plant support species so as to maximize yield per land unit.
- Prepare areas for use with natural systems such as chicken or goat tractoring.
- Start planting.
- Once the systems are set up properly they will be self sustaining and can last near forever. There's a 2000 year old food forest growing in the middle of the Moroccan desert and a 500 year old food forest prepared out of the Vietnamese jungle that work like this just as examples. After the setup all the people have to do is minimal maintenance work and just harvest, harvest, harvest.

*Note: these systems can also be integrated into other systems such as pit greenhouses to grow in cold climates or large open greenhouses in city environments in much the same way, just the water logistics will be different in closed. These systems can also be used to grow food alongside what were previously "no-grow" zones in cities.

resolve
27th February 16, 08:07 PM
As for your claims of having imperical evidence I shall direct you to this thread:

http://www.permies.com/t/19668/permaculture/Permaculture-Monoculture-actual-numbers


Monoculture soil example:
uunszObAD-0

Permaculture soil example from Geoff Lawton's "greening the desert" project in Jordan:
1FK0XFvxGxU

resolve
27th February 16, 08:14 PM
Another example of greening the desert through permaculture design in Wadi Rum, one of the driest and worst areas for farming in the world:

2sazhRzEV2Y

Üser Friendly
28th February 16, 04:34 AM
Then why are you doing it by hand? Also why are you plowing furrows to begin with? To benefit monoculture?

I have not mentioned mono-culture.




Not really. By permaculture I'm talking about the Australian systems that are being propogated worldwide (even in deserts), at whatever scale, that have been invented by or in progress of being reclaimed from ancient farming cultures by Bill Mollison, David Holmgren, and Geoff Lawton.

The key to permaculture is setting up systems that don't need to be constantly cycled, fertilized, and pesticided like Euro-style monoculture systems and the key to that is soil science.

I understand what the term is. I practice it on a small scale, so I am aware of the pros and cons

Perhaps you could link some projects that are not only self sufficient in food, but actually produce a surplus for sale/trade to others

BTW, I'm not reading through a thread on another forum to get stats

If you want to post stats post stats

resolve
28th February 16, 09:11 AM
BTW, I'm not reading through a thread on another forum to get stats

If you want to post stats post stats

Your answers are a click away. It's only 9 small posts on one page with links to studies and an explanation on how to find more since 'Permaculture' is a design system and you need other keywords to search with. Are you that lazy?

http://www.permies.com/t/19668/permaculture/Permaculture-Monoculture-actual-numbers

Üser Friendly
28th February 16, 10:51 AM
yes i am that lazy

Your posted link doesn't even work, you potato

No Projects that have reached sustainability plus surplus to sell, either?

Lets see, don't tell me, you read a book where a guy with a beard told you to trust him, every thing will be OK if you follow his instructions, regardless of the lack of evidence

Do you see a pattern forming?

Üser Friendly
28th February 16, 10:53 AM
again, J-Meister, don't let me dissuade you from practicing Permaculture

It's a very interesting and rewarding hobby

Buy if you think, for one moment, that it will feed the world's starving, you are sadly deluded

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
28th February 16, 03:57 PM
Your posted link doesn't even work, you potato


Careful resolve, that there's sexy talk in Ireland, I think he might be coming onto you.

resolve
28th February 16, 05:57 PM
Doofa, the link works fine broheim.

http://www.permies.com/t/19668/permaculture/Permaculture-Monoculture-actual-numbers

Üser Friendly
29th February 16, 02:21 AM
Like I said

Either post the stats or don't

I'm not jumping through hoops for you

Pie of Hate
29th February 16, 03:55 AM
Resolve isn't going to post stats and Doof doesn't want to play Linkcetion. Can we just fucking burn some hippies now?

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
29th February 16, 05:26 AM
Like I said

Either post the stats or don't

I'm not jumping through hoops for you

Its a good thread Doof & he's right there's a bit much to cut & paste but the thread's not so big.

I'd be good to have your insight into some of the things they bring up, if you get the time of course.

Üser Friendly
29th February 16, 07:00 AM
Well perhaps you would post some info on potatoes grown by permacultural methodology in calories per acre from the thread

Then I can post some cal/acre for spuds grown using traditional organic agricultural methodology

Then we have something to discuss

because I've got a fantasy journal entry to write

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
29th February 16, 07:09 AM
*sniff*

You say the sweetest things

*sniff*

Üser Friendly
29th February 16, 07:27 AM
i edited my reply to reflect reality

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
29th February 16, 07:46 AM
UR A MONSTER!!!

Üser Friendly
29th February 16, 08:05 AM
The man love was real

But not enough to do resolve's leg work for him

I'm a busy man

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
29th February 16, 08:29 AM
Someone's gotta empty those buckets I suppose.

Pie of Hate
29th February 16, 10:30 AM
Hey Doof! Hows this for an easter prezzy for your missus?

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/27/80/58/278058f5fdc756804ce4bc4aace15543.jpg

Feryk
29th February 16, 01:12 PM
https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSH6pVzY8sdPHXr4favt_UdrNLoZaCo5 FXTE94BRzSUphE0zVlJ
Resolve isn't going to post stats and Doof doesn't want to play Linkcetion. Can we just fucking burn some hippies now?

Üser Friendly
29th February 16, 02:09 PM
Hey Doof! Hows this for an easter prezzy for your missus?

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/27/80/58/278058f5fdc756804ce4bc4aace15543.jpg

Not sturdy enough

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
1st March 16, 10:40 AM
The UNCTAD report identified key indicators for the transformation needed in agriculture:

Increasing soil carbon content and better integration between crop and livestock production, and increased incorporation of agroforestry and wild vegetation
Reduction in greenhouse gas emissions of livestock production
Reduction of GHGs through sustainable peatland, forest and grassland management
Optimization of organic and inorganic fertilizer use, including through closed nutrient cycles in agriculture
Reduction of waste throughout the food chains
Changing dietary patterns toward climate-friendly food consumption
Reform of the international trade regime for food and agriculture



U.N. Commission on Trade and Development, Trade and Environment Review 2013: Wake Up Before it is Too Late. (http://unctad.org/en/PublicationsLibrary/ditcted2012d3_en.pdf)

Aren't these Permaculture ideas?

Üser Friendly
1st March 16, 12:28 PM
The main tenants of PC are not tilling the soil and growing perennials, ideally tree crops

None of the above are specific to PC, and most are shared by 'traditional' organic farmers

But as I mentioned previously PC has been hijacked by eco-natzi activists

resolve
8th March 16, 08:44 PM
"In the early 1970s, it dawned on me that no one had applied design to agriculture. When I realized it, the hairs went up on the back of my neck. It was so strange. We'd had agriculture for 7,000 years, and we'd been losing for 7,000 years - everything was turning into desert. So I wondered, can we build systems that obey ecological principles? We know what they are, we just never apply them. Ecologists never apply good ecology to their gardens. Architects never understand the transmission of heat in buildings, and physicists live in houses with demented energy systems. It's curious that we never apply what we know to how we live."

- Bill Mollison, founder of Permaculture Design

NoBowie
9th March 16, 03:29 PM
"In the early 1970s, it dawned on me that no one had applied design to agriculture. When I realized it, the hairs went up on the back of my neck. It was so strange. We'd had agriculture for 7,000 years, and we'd been losing for 7,000 years - everything was turning into desert. So I wondered, can we build systems that obey ecological principles? We know what they are, we just never apply them. Ecologists never apply good ecology to their gardens. Architects never understand the transmission of heat in buildings, and physicists live in houses with demented energy systems. It's curious that we never apply what we know to how we live."

- Bill Mollison, founder of Permaculture Design

http://i.imgur.com/UYvBb9f.gif

resolve
9th March 16, 08:11 PM
NoB for Desert Queen 2016.

NoBowie
29th March 16, 12:17 PM
"The writer who breeds more words than he needs is making a chore for the reader who reads." Dr. Seuss



I will say that the one really big advantage of monoculture modern industrial ag is mechanical harvest whereas most permaculture systems have to be harvested by hand to not disturb the systems.

So modern ag is like this:

- Plow furrows into large expansive fields. Most of the soil, built up over hundreds/thousands of years gets dried out with massive sun exposure and turns to dust.
- Soil is leeched of nutrients by the plants and exposure. Vast amounts of fertilizer and crop rotation are required to get nutrients back into the soil.
- Most of the fertilizer nutrients are extremely water soluble. These systems are not designed for water retention in biomass, so you run into the massive runoff problem causing algal blooms and also contaminatied groundwater.
- Big harvesters (combines/tree shakers and whatnot) come around into the fields and easily strip the harvest.
- Every now and then a field is allowed to go fallow so as to not completely deplete it into unusable land... after a season or two the recovering species are plowed back into the earth and the cycle starts over again.
- This doesn't even account for the amount of pesticides needed to protect the large monoculture fields from opportunistic parasites.

**** THIS IS WHY WHENEVER HOUSING DEVELOPMENTS ARE BUILT THEY TRUCK OFF THE TOPSOIL, usually created from forests and natural systems over hundreds and thousands of years... TO SELL TO MONOCULTURE FARMERS BECAUSE THEIR SOIL IS PISS POOR ****


Permaculture is like this:

- (IF land needs more or less water retention) Build different styles of earthworks using smart design.
- (IF there are unwanted species of plants) Start spreading layers of sheet mulch (manure layer, organic clippings layer, cardboard/paper/leaf layers, hay layer on top) to kill unwanted species by depriving them of sunlight and to also propagate soil species. Different setups can also be used to change the PH of the soil to desired levels without harsh chemicals. Sheet mulch may not even need to be used and there are many other ways of building soil that are included into permaculture design.
- Design around light level zones and plant nutrient needs (including training vine plants around harvest trees) and plant support species so as to maximize yield per land unit.
- Prepare areas for use with natural systems such as chicken or goat tractoring.
- Start planting.
- Once the systems are set up properly they will be self sustaining and can last near forever. There's a 2000 year old food forest growing in the middle of the Moroccan desert and a 500 year old food forest prepared out of the Vietnamese jungle that work like this just as examples. After the setup all the people have to do is minimal maintenance work and just harvest, harvest, harvest.

*Note: these systems can also be integrated into other systems such as pit greenhouses to grow in cold climates or large open greenhouses in city environments in much the same way, just the water logistics will be different in closed. These systems can also be used to grow food alongside what were previously "no-grow" zones in cities.

Harpy
29th March 16, 03:15 PM
Dr Seuss is one to talk.

NoBowie
29th March 16, 04:28 PM
http://i.imgur.com/wRdrsbf.jpg?1