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View Full Version : Erasers are an ‘instrument of the devil'



Üser Friendly
27th May 15, 03:19 AM
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/11630639/Ban-erasers-from-the-classroom-says-academic.html


Erasers are an ‘instrument of the devil' and should be banned from classrooms because they encourage children to feel ashamed about mistakes, a King’s College visiting professor says.


Instead, we need a culture where children are not afraid to make mistakes, they look at their mistakes and they learn from them, where they are continuously reflecting and improving on what they’ve done, not being enthralled to getting the right answer quickly and looking smart.

"They need to be interested in the process of getting the right answer because that’s what it is like in the big wide world.

interesting...

Pie of Hate
27th May 15, 06:58 AM
The executives at Big Rubber aren't going to like this.

Feryk
27th May 15, 10:55 AM
The bigger issue of teaching kids to learn from their mistakes and head towards the right answer is a good one.

Spade: The Real Snake
27th May 15, 12:54 PM
It's more like furthering the ever expanding army of precious and unique little snowflakes.
Can't wait until the real world crushes their spirits and runs roughshod all over their worthless delicate asses.

Spade: The Real Snake
27th May 15, 01:30 PM
LIfe is a giant Kobayashi Maru.

Üser Friendly
27th May 15, 01:35 PM
Kids need grades, they need competition, they need their work reviewed. They need some unobtainable goals / standards so they can "shoot for the stars and hit the moon"

Participation trophies are for sucks.

I don't think scientist guy is saying children need participation awards, more they should be taught to embrace failure as a means to end, the end being success

Feryk
27th May 15, 02:32 PM
Hey! Life IS a giant Kobayashi Maru!

Spade: The Real Snake
27th May 15, 02:39 PM
Mistakes do need to be corrected.
Why do you think he lost his reproductive functions.

Adouglasmhor
28th May 15, 12:36 AM
I can agree with the above statement, but framing this with 'erasers are bad' is misguided then.

Mistakes do need to be corrected.

He was on the radio yesterday here, he was saying draw a line through it, or highlight the mistake in a different colour then do it right, he cited examples of kids who make the same mistake every time as they can't refer back to where they go wrong. Another noted teacher was saying that he gets his pupils to do rough work on separate sheets and then when ready the pupils do a good clean copy on new sheets. Again leaving a back track to a record of where you go wrong.

Pie of Hate
28th May 15, 02:51 AM
He was on the radio yesterday here, he was saying draw a line through it, or highlight the mistake in a different colour then do it right, he cited examples of kids who make the same mistake every time as they can't refer back to where they go wrong. Another noted teacher was saying that he gets his pupils to do rough work on separate sheets and then when ready the pupils do a good clean copy on new sheets. Again leaving a back track to a record of where you go wrong.

That's how the schools I went to worked. Even now (when not using analysis packages) I still do a lot of 'workings out' on rough sheets.

Üser Friendly
28th May 15, 03:07 AM
I remember the maths exam mantra "always show your working out, you get some points for an incorrect answer if you show your workings out"

Adouglasmhor
28th May 15, 04:38 PM
I remember the maths exam mantra "always show your working out, you get some points for an incorrect answer if you show your workings out"
Show correct working out and answer you got more through.

Cullion
28th May 15, 05:25 PM
the point of erasers is to fix mistakes. are we supposed to teach children not to fix their mistakes ?

this professor is a fucking retard

Üser Friendly
29th May 15, 12:14 AM
I disagree

The point of erasers is to make like the mistake never happened

Mistakes can be fixed without destroying evidence that a mistake was made

Üser Friendly
29th May 15, 12:52 AM
Though your attitude does fit in nicely with your inability to admit when you are wrong

Cullion
29th May 15, 02:24 AM
I disagree

The point of erasers is to make like the mistake never happened

Mistakes can be fixed without destroying evidence that a mistake was made

Apply this logic to carpentry to see how silly it is.

Harpy
29th May 15, 02:54 AM
Kids need grades, they need competition, they need their work reviewed. They need some unobtainable goals / standards so they can "shoot for the stars and hit the moon"

Participation trophies are for sucks.
Says the hypocrite who is sending his kid to sunshine out of 10! Montessori.

Spade: The Real Snake
29th May 15, 07:52 AM
Umm... they use erasers in Montessori. Montessori does not equal "happy sunshine everyone is a winner there are no mistakes".

Montessori is mainly "kids work on / complete the same stuff they would in standard school but they get to choose what they complete / when and rotate through tasks and get more individualized attention"

"Montessori education is an educational approach developed by Italian physician and educator"

Looks like the Bulgarian picked the school.

Üser Friendly
29th May 15, 12:04 PM
Apply this logic to carpentry to see how silly it is.

Do you do much carpentry Cullion?

So when a student learns carpentry all evidence of mistakes should be destroyed?

But that is besides the point. the article is about children in schools learning academic subjects like maths or english

Your analogy is incomplete

and your straw man is shit

or red herring or whatever

Üser Friendly
29th May 15, 12:05 PM
Umm... they use erasers in Montessori. Montessori does not equal "happy sunshine everyone is a winner there are no mistakes".

Montessori is mainly "kids work on / complete the same stuff they would in standard school but they get to choose what they complete / when and rotate through tasks and get more individualized attention"

I think Lily may mean Steiner education

Harpy
29th May 15, 03:49 PM
No.

Cullion
29th May 15, 08:01 PM
Do you do much carpentry Cullion?

So when a student learns carpentry all evidence of mistakes should be destroyed?

Doofa, let's look at this another way.e

But that is besides the point. the article is about children in schools learning academic subjects like maths or english

Your analogy is incomplete

and your straw man is shit

or red herring or whatever[/QUOTE]

Doofa, I don't need you to tell me how to study academic subjects. You need to ask me how to do it and I will help you. That is the how we are positioned.

If I want to know about making a pig pregnant without it's father finding out, then I will ask you. We all have our niche.

Harpy
29th May 15, 09:34 PM
Father Cullion has been angered. Feel his wrath!!

Adouglasmhor
30th May 15, 12:29 AM
the point of erasers is to fix mistakes. are we supposed to teach children not to fix their mistakes ?

this professor is a fucking retard

Not what he said, though it was more or less the way it was reported, it wouldn't be much of a story otherwise, his point was pupils are making repeated errors as they have no physical record of where and how they went wrong, it's better to draw a line through it or highlight it, then go an and do it correctly bellow. Then when you solve a similar problem you can go back to your previous work and use that as an example to get past the step you have a problem with.
There was also some discussion of how this teaching of children to hide it and pretend it never happened is part of the source of the culture of it's not my fault, better to learn to face your faults than pretend they never existed.

Harpy
30th May 15, 01:23 AM
^ I'm for it!

Üser Friendly
30th May 15, 01:52 AM
No no NO! Dougie!

Explain it with a carpentry analogy or Cullion will get snippy

Üser Friendly
30th May 15, 01:59 AM
Doofa, let's look at this another way.e

But that is besides the point. the article is about children in schools learning academic subjects like maths or english

Your analogy is incomplete

and your straw man is shit

or red herring or whatever

Doofa, I don't need you to tell me how to study academic subjects. You need to ask me how to do it and I will help you. That is the how we are positioned.

If I want to know about making a pig pregnant without it's father finding out, then I will ask you. We all have our niche.

Would you like a little help formating your posts? You seem a little inept at it. Or were you overcome with emotion and not thinking straight?

Were you mocked when you got things wrong at school? Did the other children tease you?

Your brain is slippery as an eel son

Üser Friendly
30th May 15, 02:01 AM
Father Cullion has been angered. Feel his wrath!!

I do not wish to feel anything of Cullion's, but thanks for the offer

Cullion
30th May 15, 05:12 AM
Not what he said, though it was more or less the way it was reported, it wouldn't be much of a story otherwise, his point was pupils are making repeated errors as they have no physical record of where and how they went wrong, it's better to draw a line through it or highlight it, then go an and do it correctly bellow. Then when you solve a similar problem you can go back to your previous work and use that as an example to get past the step you have a problem with.
There was also some discussion of how this teaching of children to hide it and pretend it never happened is part of the source of the culture of it's not my fault, better to learn to face your faults than pretend they never existed.

We've all made mistakes that just needed to disappear, Douglas.

Cullion
30th May 15, 05:13 AM
Would you like a little help formating your posts? You seem a little inept at it.

ei dont see wi i shoulld currect typos. surely it would be better to leave the post exaxly as it first slipped out. keyboards hneed dont a back key. spazz

Spade: The Real Snake
30th May 15, 08:02 AM
Not what he said, though it was more or less the way it was reported, it wouldn't be much of a story otherwise, his point was pupils are making repeated errors as they have no physical record of where and how they went wrong, it's better to draw a line through it or highlight it, then go an and do it correctly bellow. Then when you solve a similar problem you can go back to your previous work and use that as an example to get past the step you have a problem with.
There was also some discussion of how this teaching of children to hide it and pretend it never happened is part of the source of the culture of it's not my fault, better to learn to face your faults than pretend they never existed.
And this baseless theory is all well and good in the safe confines of academia, however once these children enter the real and competitive world of....gasp.....work, they will be eaten alive by their boss, whom will be 'less than impressed' with their willingness to just 'line over an error and merrily carry on'.

Cullion
30th May 15, 08:13 AM
doofa needs to remove the backspace and delete keys from his keyboard to learn how to type properly. because fixing mistakes is stupid. what children need is repeated humiliation of their mistakes being permanently visible to all until they learn to always get things right the first time.

Üser Friendly
30th May 15, 08:23 AM
doofa needs to remove the backspace and delete keys from his keyboard to learn how to type properly. because fixing mistakes is stupid. what children need is repeated humiliation of their mistakes being permanently visible to all until they learn to always get things right the first time.

I don't think anybody (except you) is suggesting fixing mistakes is stupid, you are just being petulant

The argument is, erasing mistakes inhibits children's development

Do try to keep on track Cullion

And ye might have noticed my new OS has given me a spell check when I post

Spade: The Real Snake
30th May 15, 08:24 AM
Have you seen his shitty Irish shanty? He lives the whole "mistake can be fixed without destroying the evidence in carpentry" meme.
That's why he constantly digs holes.
"Oh, fiddlesticks, I measured off by 8mm on this side, best to dig down a slope to adjust levels!"

Üser Friendly
30th May 15, 08:29 AM
^Cullion's wife

Cullion
30th May 15, 09:12 AM
I don't think anybody (except you) is suggesting fixing mistakes is stupid, you are just being petulant

The argument is, erasing mistakes inhibits children's development

And it's a profoundly stupid argument.

Üser Friendly
30th May 15, 11:39 AM
And it's a profoundly stupid argument.

Please elaborate and we can have a discussion

Cullion
30th May 15, 12:13 PM
When somebody says something as melodramatic and stupid as 'letting children erase pencilled mistakes stops them from learning', my first question is 'show me the statistical evidence that this is true'.

Otherwise, there's not much to discuss.

Üser Friendly
31st May 15, 02:46 AM
When somebody says something as melodramatic and stupid as 'letting children erase pencilled mistakes stops them from learning',

Another straw man Cullion? The article never made that statement either directly or in so many words

The article was more along the lines of...


The eraser is an instrument of the devil because it perpetuates a culture of shame about error. It’s a way of lying to the world, which says ‘I didn’t make a mistake. I got it right first time.’ That’s what happens when you can rub it out and replace it.

You were made to feel that shame weren't you. Did they call you names, like Mr Thicky, or Mistake Boy?

And that was just the teachers. I can only imagine the cruelty of your peers

Your experiences have left you quite traumatized it would seem, leaving you unable to make a cohesive argument on the subject


my first question is 'show me the statistical evidence that this is true'.

Perhaps you could show some statistical data to support your position?


Otherwise, there's not much to discuss.

I don't know, we are having a fine time calling each other names and such

PS you misspelled penciled in your post, perhaps you should go back and edit it out lest you become as stupid as wot I am

Adouglasmhor
31st May 15, 12:15 PM
We've all made mistakes that just needed to disappear, Douglas.

That's what pig farms in Norfolk are for.

Adouglasmhor
31st May 15, 12:17 PM
And this baseless theory is all well and good in the safe confines of academia, however once these children enter the real and competitive world of....gasp.....work, they will be eaten alive by their boss, whom will be 'less than impressed' with their willingness to just 'line over an error and merrily carry on'.

I don't think that is what he or I said either.

Cullion
31st May 15, 03:44 PM
Another straw man Cullion? The article never made that statement either directly or in so many words

If you're claiming that this isn't about helping children to learn, then what is the point of it ?


And that was just the teachers. I can only imagine the cruelty of your peers

Your experiences have left you quite traumatized it would seem, leaving you unable to make a cohesive argument on the subject

You attempts at pop psychology are as clumsy as your sex life.



Perhaps you could show some statistical data to support your position?

You're trying to argue that a common practice of many decades all over the world is harmful to children's education. The burden of proof is with you.



PS you misspelled penciled in your post, perhaps you should go back and edit it out lest you become as stupid as wot I am

That is exactly what I would usually do. But 'pencilled' is the correct spelling according to the OED. You are trying to correct the British spelling to the American spelling.

Üser Friendly
31st May 15, 06:08 PM
If you're claiming that this isn't about helping children to learn, then what is the point of it ?

You're trying to argue that a common practice of many decades all over the world is harmful to children's education. The burden of proof is with you.

The divil sits on your left shoulder...

Practices that were totally acceptable for a particular generation have often proven unacceptable, such a corporal punishment

Do you subscribe to 'Spare the rod, spoil the child'? Beating children was an appropriate form of discipline for many generations

are you advocating child beating, as a form of command and control, because child beating was deemed appropriate for previous, un-enlightened generations?

Bottom line, is there any part of the Op article that you have a cohesive argument against? Personal jibes aside ?

Cullion
1st June 15, 02:05 AM
The divil sits on your left shoulder...

Practices that were totally acceptable for a particular generation have often proven unacceptable, such a corporal punishment

Do you subscribe to 'Spare the rod, spoil the child'? Beating children was an appropriate form of discipline for many generations

are you advocating child beating, as a form of command and control, because child beating was deemed appropriate for previous, un-enlightened generations?

Bottom line, is there any part of the Op article that you have a cohesive argument against? Personal jibes aside ?

When you are in a hole, learn to stop digging.

The original quote is obvious hyperbole from an educational theorist who presents no evidence in support of his bizarre claim. The idea that allowing a child to erase an error is some kind of shame-based punishment is unfounded. I could just as easily claim that *not* allowing them to erase mistakes was an attempt to shame them.

That said, if you really believe this, then you also ought to support teaching people to type by removing the delete keys from their keyboard.

That said, I can understand why you'd want to go out on a limb defending this attention-seeking crackpot. Birds of a feather..

Üser Friendly
1st June 15, 02:43 AM
I'm not defending the scientist guy

I'm just waiting for a little substance from you

All you have offered in terms of an argument against his findings thus far is 'that's stupid, he's stupid, you're stupid', seasoned with a few straw man arguments, logical fallacies and some references to sex with pigs

i just expected a bit more from you Cullion, as you are supposed to be Sociocide's resident smart guy

At the very least i expected a link to research that supported your point of view

Oh well

Harpy
1st June 15, 02:54 AM
Snake - in your quest to shoot down whatever doofa says, you dug yourself a hole to match his.

Üser Friendly
1st June 15, 03:01 AM
Snake's hole will never be as good as mine

Pie of Hate
1st June 15, 03:33 AM
I'm not defending the scientist guy

"Scientist Guy" has offered nothing to back up his claim. All he's done is offer a (stupid) public opinion.


I'm just waiting for a little substance from you

Meh


All you have offered in terms of an argument against his findings thus far is 'that's stupid, he's stupid, you're stupid', seasoned with a few straw man arguments, logical fallacies and some references to sex with pigs

Stay well away terms such as "Straw man" and "Logical fallacy". It wont end well. Pig fucking is all yours though.

The further away from education we can get people like this, the better.

Cullion
1st June 15, 03:33 AM
I'm not defending the scientist guy

I'm just waiting for a little substance from you

All you have offered in terms of an argument against his findings thus far is 'that's stupid, he's stupid, you're stupid', seasoned with a few straw man arguments, logical fallacies and some references to sex with pigs

That's not actually true though. I don't have to produce research supporting the status quo any more than you're obliged to provide research demonstrating that teaching children to wait their turn to speak, or to say please and thank you, is better for their social development. Your point boils down to 'a professor can say anything he likes that runs against common practice and common sense, and it immediately behooves everybody else to produce detailed scientific research proving him wrong'.. that's a nonsensical view.

His whole argument about erasers having some mental connection with shame or deliberately forgetting mistakes that inhibits learning to fix those mistakes is pure conjecture. It doesn't make sense on a very basic level. A child will only erase something that they already know is a mistake. It's the mistakes they *don't* erase because *they didn't see that it was wrong* which ought to be his focus.

That's why this idea is as stupid as teaching typing by removing the delete and backspace key.

Üser Friendly
1st June 15, 05:57 AM
"Scientist Guy" has offered nothing to back up his claim. All he's done is offer a (stupid) public opinion.

I expect he has reams of study to back up his claims. It is his job after all


That's not actually true though. I don't have to produce research supporting the status quo any more than you're obliged to provide research demonstrating that teaching children to wait their turn to speak, or to say please and thank you, is better for their social development. Your point boils down to 'a professor can say anything he likes that runs against common practice and common sense, and it immediately behooves everybody else to produce detailed scientific research proving him wrong'.. that's a nonsensical view.

His whole argument about erasers having some mental connection with shame or deliberately forgetting mistakes that inhibits learning to fix those mistakes is pure conjecture. It doesn't make sense on a very basic level. A child will only erase something that they already know is a mistake. It's the mistakes they *don't* erase because *they didn't see that it was wrong* which ought to be his focus.

That's why this idea is as stupid as teaching typing by removing the delete and backspace key.

So your whole point boils down to "my opinion is better than scientist guy's and you're just going to have to trust me on that."?

Fair enough, but how much do you really know about cognitive science?

Whilst you're at it perhaps you could give me some advice on this rash I have. My Dr says it's fine and nothing to worry about, but you're probably smarter than him so what do you think?

And you are right, there is no onus on you to back up your argument with some facts, but I'm sure you would post a link on the subject if you could find one

Perhaps the CIA has some info on it

Üser Friendly
1st June 15, 06:01 AM
A child will only erase something that they already know is a mistake. It's the mistakes they *don't* erase because *they didn't see that it was wrong* which ought to be his focus.

This is great, and a good idea for a follow up research project

Perhaps you should suggest it to scientist guy?

Spade: The Real Snake
1st June 15, 06:59 AM
Snake - in your quest to shoot down whatever doofa says, you dug yourself a hole to match his.
Explain this eraser-worthy mistake of yours

Cullion
1st June 15, 07:19 AM
I expect he has reams of study to back up his claims. It is his job after all

He hasn't got any.



So your whole point boils down to "my opinion is better than scientist guy's and you're just going to have to trust me on that."?

No. My point is that long established practice with a common sense rationale is better than 'scientist guy thinks'.


Perhaps the CIA has some info on it

I see now why you have this angsty relationship with anything involving formal study. It's because your ego cannot stand for your opinion to be corrected by data, logic or greater experience. You made yourself unteachable from a young age and still believe it was something wrong with 'the system'.

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
1st June 15, 08:06 AM
Well it certainly looks like Cullion's work load has decreased recently

Üser Friendly
1st June 15, 10:05 AM
No. My point is that long established practice with a common sense rationale is better than 'scientist guy thinks'.

So we should ignore scientific advances if they are contrary to established practices? that is your argument?

Like beating children when they get the answer wrong. That was a long established method used by many fine educators. Right up to the point where some wishy washy do-gooder boffin said it might be a bad thing

So? Should we bring back corporal punishment in primary schools?


I see now why you have this angsty relationship with anything involving formal study. It's because your ego cannot stand for your opinion to be corrected by data, logic or greater experience. You made yourself unteachable from a young age and still believe it was something wrong with 'the system'.

You attempts at pop psychology are as clumsy as my sex life.

Üser Friendly
1st June 15, 10:08 AM
With the number of idiots like Doof in the world, Cullion's work is never finished.

You do realize that you are one of those idiots don't you?

Pie of Hate
1st June 15, 10:11 AM
So we should ignore scientific advances if they are contrary to established practices?

No. We should ignore Psychologists when they try to infiltrate the education system armed with nothing more than book promotions.

Üser Friendly
1st June 15, 10:18 AM
No. We should ignore Psychologists when they try to infiltrate the education system armed with nothing more than book promotions.

You sound a little paranoid

have you any evidence of infiltration of the education system by evil Psychologists?

Pie of Hate
1st June 15, 10:20 AM
Behold! (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Guy-Claxton/e/B001HOI19K)

Cullion
1st June 15, 10:31 AM
So we should ignore scientific advances if they are contrary to established practices? that is your argument?

There is no scientific advance here because there is no coherent theory and no experimental data backing his assertion.

Üser Friendly
1st June 15, 10:32 AM
Behold! (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Guy-Claxton/e/B001HOI19K)

Hardly a smoking gun Cake

Should we ignore Stephen Hawking since he makes money writing books?

whatever Cullion has must be contagious

Üser Friendly
1st June 15, 10:35 AM
There is no scientific advance here because there is no coherent theory and no experimental data backing his assertion.

Perhaps you should read his books before making such a bold accusation

Cake has a link if you're interested

So what is your argument again?

Pie of Hate
1st June 15, 10:40 AM
Hardly a smoking gun Cake

Should we ignore Stephen Hawking since he makes money writing books?

whatever Cullion has must be contagious

Hawking isn't trying to influence the schools with baseless public soundbites.

Cullion
1st June 15, 11:02 AM
Perhaps you should read his books before making such a bold accusation

His pop sociology books are not science. When I look at his academic publication record the last paper from him was in 2007 and contained no experimental data. Nor did the paper before that.

Adouglasmhor
1st June 15, 11:17 AM
When you are in a hole, learn to stop digging.

The original quote is obvious hyperbole from an educational theorist who presents no evidence in support of his bizarre claim. The idea that allowing a child to erase an error is some kind of shame-based punishment is unfounded. I could just as easily claim that *not* allowing them to erase mistakes was an attempt to shame them.

That said, if you really believe this, then you also ought to support teaching people to type by removing the delete keys from their keyboard.

That said, I can understand why you'd want to go out on a limb defending this attention-seeking crackpot. Birds of a feather..
I learned to type on a keyboard with every key blanked. Stood me in good stead, when I started in my first supervisory job the typing pool loved me as I was the only man they had ever seen who could touch type. I have got lazier about it since, and sometimes look at the keys especially for punctuation.

Adouglasmhor
1st June 15, 11:19 AM
No. We should ignore Psychologists when they try to infiltrate the education system armed with nothing more than book promotions.

We should just generally ignore them anyway.

Üser Friendly
1st June 15, 11:55 AM
Hawking isn't trying to influence the schools with baseless public soundbites.

Well his sound bites are based on his research. And Hawking is trying to influence universities with his theories. But your criticism was he could not be trusted because he makes a living as a writer wasn't it?


His pop sociology books are not science. When I look at his academic publication record the last paper from him was in 2007 and contained no experimental data. Nor did the paper before that.

Oh, so you have read his books and papers then? Or are you making assumptions based on your existing prejudices?

I remember when you and Reese (god rest his soul) were discussing the works of CS Lewis. You were quite inflexible about his discussing a book he had not actually read

Are you being a hypocrite, or are you a special case?

Cullion
1st June 15, 12:04 PM
Well his sound bites are based on his research.

Which papers are you referring to ?



Oh, so you have read his books and papers then? Or are you making assumptions based on your existing prejudices?

You're always a step behind. Go and pick out the papers from his academic publication list which support this theory. Go on.



Are you being a hypocrite, or are you a special case?

Neither, you're just ignorant of a few key facts.

Spade: The Real Snake
1st June 15, 01:26 PM
Hawking isn't trying to influence the schools with baseless public soundbites.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-news/3344540/Stephen-Hawking-warns-Government-over-disastrous-science-funding-cuts.html

Not to mention his "computers will be controlling humans in 100 years" crap. He, of the see-n-say and robochair, is the only human being controlled by a computer.

Pie of Hate
1st June 15, 02:50 PM
Well his sound bites are based on his research.

lol


And Hawking istrying to influence universities with his theories.

Yes he is. With scientific theories. There is a difference between a theory in a scientific sense, and what you think it means.


But your criticism was he could not be trusted because he makes a living as a writer wasn't it?


No. My criticism is he spews rubbish with no research to back it up and wants to call it science.

Syntactical Disruptorize
2nd June 15, 02:28 AM
Snake - in your quest to shoot down whatever doofa says, you dug yourself a hole to match his.

Every. God. Damned. Time.

You can pretend to be serious. You can't pretend to be smart. Stop trying.

Harpy
2nd June 15, 02:35 AM
Erasers. Yes or no??

Harpy
2nd June 15, 02:36 AM
Explain this eraser-worthy mistake of yours

Stop sassing me!

Üser Friendly
2nd June 15, 03:00 AM
blah blah blah

Now

if I was you and you were Reese (grhs) I'd now spend the next series of posts badgering you about reading the books that you are so quick to make a mockery of, until you got fed up

Shall we try that?

OK

Here goes

Have you read the books yet Cullion?

it's OK i wont be as tiresome as you were then

But the facts remain your criticisms of scientist guy, and his research, are not based on any professed knowledge of the subject, or on familiarity of his work or even on contradictory studies by other scientist guys, but merely on 'what you reckon' and coloured by your pre-existing prejudices

And that is fine if you don't agree with scientists guy's theories, really it is. But if you want to have a meaningful discussion beyond 'It's stupid, he's stupid, you're stupid', and 'It's common sense and they've been doing it for years' you really are going to have to up your game

Üser Friendly
2nd June 15, 03:10 AM
No. We should ignore Psychologists when they try to infiltrate the education system armed with nothing more than book promotions.

Sorry i thought you were insinuating that he is just trying to sell his books


No. My criticism is he spews rubbish with no research to back it up and wants to call it science.


Have you read any of his books or papers?

Cullion
2nd June 15, 03:33 AM
Well his sound bites are based on his research.

No they aren't. He hasn't published any scientific papers on the subject of the educational harm of eraser use.


Now

if I was you and you were Reese (grhs) I'd now spend the next series of posts badgering you about reading the books that you are so quick to make a mockery of, until you got fed up

Shall we try that?

OK

Here goes

Have you read the books yet Cullion?

But we aren't discussing his pop science books, we're discussing what you claim to be his scientific research on the subject. And it doesn't exist.

Have you read his books or his papers ? Have you even looked at his publication list to find out what he's published on this subject ?

I have.

Pie of Hate
2nd June 15, 03:38 AM
Have you read any of his books or papers?

Papers, yes. It's all his opinion on long discredited work by other psychologists. Nothing more than GCSE copy-pasta and nothing that any sane person could call research. It's all blurb. No brief. No testing. No results.

Pretty much what I expect from a pop psychologist.

Üser Friendly
2nd June 15, 04:21 AM
No they aren't. He hasn't published any scientific papers on the subject of the educational harm of eraser use.



But we aren't discussing his pop science books, we're discussing what you claim to be his scientific research on the subject. And it doesn't exist.

Have you read his books or his papers ? Have you even looked at his publication list to find out what he's published on this subject ?

I have.

So by reading a list of publications you can provide an in depth critique of the guys theories?

In which case why are you not dissecting the theories with that scalpel like intelligence you posses?

Why rely on your hackneyed carpentry analogies?

Where is the substance of your counter argument to his theories other than 'he's a retard' and 'keep to the status quo'?

I think you should let Cake take over from here. He has done the leg work and can at least discuss the topic without the need for pointless analogies

Pie of Hate
2nd June 15, 06:07 AM
I'm 100% sure Cullion wouldn't have raised the issue with Claxton's publications, without having done the reading.

Cullion
2nd June 15, 08:27 AM
So by reading a list of publications you can provide an in depth critique of the guys theories?

Because he hasn't published any scientific research on the pop-science theory you quote in the OP. There is no scientific work to critique. I've explained this several times now.



In which case why are you not dissecting the theories with that scalpel like intelligence you posses?

See above. Just look at his publication list yourself. This suggestion's been made to you already.

Spade: The Real Snake
2nd June 15, 10:26 AM
The only danger erasers pose in the classroom is a kid might eat too many of them and wind up like Doofa and be inflicted with a mild case of Capgras Delusion Syndrome

Adouglasmhor
2nd June 15, 11:16 AM
A psychologist is not really a scientist, but may play one on TV.

Feryk
2nd June 15, 11:50 AM
Behold! (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Guy-Claxton/e/B001HOI19K)

From the Amazon page:

Prof Guy Claxton is Emeritus Professor at Winchester University and Visiting Professor of Education at King's College London. He has previously taught and researched at Oxford University, Bristol University and the University of London Institute of Education. An internationally renowned cognitive scientist, Guy's books include 'Hare Brain, Tortoise Mind'; 'Wise Up: The Challenge of Lifelong Learning'; and with Bill and others, 'New Kinds of Smart' and 'The Learning Powered School'. Guy's Building Learning Power approach to education is widely used in all kinds of schools across the UK, as well as in Poland, Dubai, Indonesia, India, China, New Zealand, Australia and Argentina.

Not exactly a lightweight.

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
2nd June 15, 12:22 PM
A psychologist is not really a scientist, but may play one on TV.

I would argue that some psychologists could legitimately call themselves scientists, I'm thinking behaviourists in particular.

Cullion
2nd June 15, 12:23 PM
From the Amazon page:

Prof Guy Claxton is Emeritus Professor at Winchester University and Visiting Professor of Education at King's College London. He has previously taught and researched at Oxford University, Bristol University and the University of London Institute of Education. An internationally renowned cognitive scientist, Guy's books include 'Hare Brain, Tortoise Mind'; 'Wise Up: The Challenge of Lifelong Learning'; and with Bill and others, 'New Kinds of Smart' and 'The Learning Powered School'. Guy's Building Learning Power approach to education is widely used in all kinds of schools across the UK, as well as in Poland, Dubai, Indonesia, India, China, New Zealand, Australia and Argentina.

Not exactly a lightweight.

He's has a professorship, and impressive degrees. What he does not have is a publication record on the subject of this thread which includes statistical evidence you can scrutinize.

Feryk
2nd June 15, 12:48 PM
Eh, nevermind.

I googled 'criticisms of Guy Claxton'. I got a few things, but my favorite is this:

https://mrlock.wordpress.com/2013/06/24/klaxon-during-claxton-21st-century-skills-alert/

my favorite part was this:


Claxton then went on to say that there is a need for a moral aspect to education. He explained that the valued residues of education are all couched in terms of qualities of character.He went on to promote 21st century skills (I wrote down “Klaxon”) and key competencies and reported that this “requires a moral conversation”. He followed this by saying that it is astounding (in a bad way) that in the National Curriculum there is no statement of what education is for. Claxton says that as a result we hence and by default we value high levels of examination achievement.
I was just thinking “what’s a 21st century skill that didn’t exist in the 20th century?” and a million other questions about these 21st century skill. I asked a colleague at another school this question very recently after they mentioned the same phrase and the answer was “googling”. I am not joking.

Feryk
2nd June 15, 12:51 PM
It appears that Mr. Claxton is advocating his own programme of Lifelong Learning, but the 'moral conversation' thing seems odd.

Cullion
2nd June 15, 12:54 PM
given that he's british and that he's got a position of status that gives him influence over the way schools are run, he is more than likely some kind of pederast. i don't want to bring everybody down, but that is just how things usually go in rapistan.

Feryk
2nd June 15, 01:00 PM
I keep thinking back to the article from 'Wired' that Snake posted.

The English (mostly) built a system of education designed very similarly to the Ford designed a production line, for the same reasons: to give a baseline of competence to the most people while they were still in their developmental years.

And it worked. Better than everything else ever tried.

But.

Humans weren't really built to learn in a top-down, dictatorial style like what has been encourage for the last 150 years. We really do learn better by problem solving, working in smaller groups, and allowing our leaders in different areas to emerge by demonstrating their competency at the matter in question.

Classrooms are not really set up for this. So instead of trying to revolutionize what is taught in the classroom, why aren't we re-imagining the entire learning experience?

Pie of Hate
2nd June 15, 01:09 PM
I would argue that some psychologists could legitimately call themselves scientists, I'm thinking behaviourists in particular.

I'd lean more towards the neuro or psychopharmacology side of things.

Cognition and behaviour contain too many variables between the study subjects (in a large enough group, over a period of time) to make the results reliably repeatable. These are the two most likely areas that will select the participants to fit the anticipated results, rather than let the tests speak for themselves.*


*IMHO

Üser Friendly
2nd June 15, 01:09 PM
I think his ideas are thought provoking

Whilst i would not advocate banning erasers, a child's use of the eraser may give an educator insight into the child's psychology

it could be a tell-tail for OCD for instance

I may be insightful to tell a child, 'For this lesson you may not use your eraser' and see how this affects the child's behavior

I also like the idea of mistakes being part of the process of learning, just as an artist does not throw away sketches, but uses them to try out new ideas, some of which may not work

Cullion
2nd June 15, 02:41 PM
I think his ideas are thought provoking

Whilst i would not advocate banning erasers, a child's use of the eraser may give an educator insight into the child's psychology

it could be a tell-tail for OCD for instance

I may be insightful to tell a child, 'For this lesson you may not use your eraser' and see how this affects the child's behavior

I also like the idea of mistakes being part of the process of learning, just as an artist does not throw away sketches, but uses them to try out new ideas, some of which may not work

Mistakes are part of the process of learning when you're allowed to use erasers, just as they are when you're allowed to use the delete key on a keyboard.

I don't make typos because I'm allowed to use the delete key. I make typos when I don't notice that I need to use the delete key.

Cullion
2nd June 15, 02:46 PM
I keep thinking back to the article from 'Wired' that Snake posted.

The English (mostly) built a system of education designed very similarly to the Ford designed a production line, for the same reasons: to give a baseline of competence to the most people while they were still in their developmental years.

And it worked. Better than everything else ever tried.

But.

Humans weren't really built to learn in a top-down, dictatorial style like what has been encourage for the last 150 years. We really do learn better by problem solving, working in smaller groups, and allowing our leaders in different areas to emerge by demonstrating their competency at the matter in question.

Classrooms are not really set up for this. So instead of trying to revolutionize what is taught in the classroom, why aren't we re-imagining the entire learning experience?

People are. And for those who can afford to educate their children privately, there has been quite a range of options for some time. However, the state educational systems of most western countries have been set up with obedience training and conditioning people to accept repetitive chores amongst their goals.

Sweden, which isn't normally thought of as particularly 'right wing', has been introducing a school voucher system with the explicit aim of extending the kind of choice that is normally the preserve of the wealthy to the working and middle class.

Teaching unions generally hate the idea of parents being able to vote with their feet.

Feryk
2nd June 15, 03:01 PM
The teacher's union where I am is dead set against Charter schools (essentially schools that teach the provincial curriculum with a different focus (eg, music, sports, etc.). They feel that the public school system fits everyone.

Adouglasmhor
3rd June 15, 12:26 AM
I would argue that some psychologists could legitimately call themselves scientists, I'm thinking behaviourists in particular.

Do you know what bulling without a base is?

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
3rd June 15, 12:28 AM
no

Adouglasmhor
3rd June 15, 12:34 AM
It's when you spit shine a pair of shoes or boots that aren't clean and polished to start with, you can do it and it looks the part but won't stand up to scrutiny and won't last.
Modern psychology has a lot of baggage that results in a situation where research that looks like it has been done in a way that looks like it has been done using scientific method, hasn't really because the base lines, units and methods were arrived at years ago by unsubstantiated leaps in the dark.

Üser Friendly
3rd June 15, 03:05 AM
Mistakes are part of the process of learning when you're allowed to use erasers, just as they are when you're allowed to use the delete key on a keyboard.

I don't make typos because I'm allowed to use the delete key. I make typos when I don't notice that I need to use the delete key.

Just another reason why you will never be Belle of the Typing Pool

Syntactical Disruptorize
4th June 15, 12:01 PM
I think his ideas are thought provoking
How the fuck would you know?

You could acquire a case of delirium tremens by drinking the froth from a pop bottle.

Üser Friendly
4th June 15, 12:16 PM
How would i know if i found his ideas thought provoking?

is that a serious question or are you in need of a spanking?

Syntactical Disruptorize
4th June 15, 12:25 PM
How would i know if i found his ideas thought provoking?
You would have to have had a thought in order to know.


is that a serious question or are you in need of a spanking?
Your big talk is no more impressive than Lily's. Go hide in a hole from the dread specter of a bar of soap.

Üser Friendly
4th June 15, 03:08 PM
You would have to have had a thought in order to know.


Your big talk is no more impressive than Lily's. Go hide in a hole from the dread specter of a bar of soap.

I see what's going on here Chuck

There's a new poster around and you are showing them how "tough talkin'" you are

I expect you have really impressed them

Well done

And FYI i am adequately clean thank you

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
4th June 15, 04:36 PM
And FYI the pigs think I'm clean thank you

Üser Friendly
4th June 15, 06:40 PM
don't give me gip, Dr

Syntactical Disruptorize
8th June 15, 08:57 AM
I see what's going on here Chuck
That's never been true.

Feryk
8th June 15, 02:26 PM
You know, whenever I'm having a day where I'm frustrated at other people's stupidity or I see people crashing into the same barriers over and over and over again -- I read Chuck's posts and feel better.

Huh.

Syntactical Disruptorize
9th June 15, 01:34 PM
Perhaps I can make a business out of this -- I get irritated at idiots so you don't have to!

Feryk
9th June 15, 02:32 PM
It's not that you are saying what I'm thinking. You say what I wish I had thought.

It's an admirable skill.

Syntactical Disruptorize
14th June 15, 10:20 AM
It's not that you are saying what I'm thinking. You say what I wish I had thought.

It's an admirable skill.

I'm quite floored by this response. Thank you.