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AAAAAA
24th July 12, 03:22 AM
I don't think so,too many interests to keep it afloat some more.
But if Spain goes bust, then there's some for everyone.

Germans have all the qualities but also the vice of self-destruction when at their apex, for not understanding the consequences of their choices. I think historians in the 22th centuries will come to see this as the third time in a century of them doing this.

Lollius Urbicus
24th July 12, 03:43 AM
Not the Euro's last week, but I'm not sure how much longer they can kick the can down the road.

I suspect that they have now decided Greece will go, they're going to wait until it does and then use that pour encourager les autres to move towards full fiscal union.

It's not the Germans fault, its all you Europeans fault for not listening to us when we told you, you couldn't have monetary union without fiscal union and for continually voting for pro-EU and pro-Euro parties.

Beyond the fundamental contradiction of monetary union without fiscal union, its the fault of southern European countries for running welfare states and labour conditions that were fundamentally unaffordable. The Germans and the French were the first to breech the deficit rules, but the Germans undertook key labour market reforms. So they used the good years to caulk their hulls and clear their rigging. Whereas the likes of Greece, Spain, Portugal, France and Italy failed to do that.

Italy has one saving grace in that its fundamentals are actually reasonable strong and it has an economy that isn't based on alcohol or providing services to sweaty northern Europeans. If Italy undertakes labour market reforms and leaves the Euro it could recover fairly strongly and fairly swiftly. No such option, however, exists for Greece, Portugal and Spain.

If France continues down the road of socialist madness then they too will end up in the GPS group.

Commodore Pipes
24th July 12, 09:58 AM
If Italy gets into more trouble, will it mean that I can get my cowboy guns cheaper?

AAAAAA
24th July 12, 10:04 AM
I mostly agree with you. Random thoughts here:
The Germans now will be very much penalized in any of the catastrophic scenarios: it's a political decision, because the better economic one (it seems) would be to try and save the boat. They're treating the Euro as a competition where they are winning so fuck the losers.

If I were German I'd be probably thinking that we should leave the damn southeners on their own boat; the "markets" are attacking those countries, not Germany, so why go under with them?
For now it makes sense, but consider the turmoil in Europe after such a split. With Germany in the middle, too. Doesn't sound too good.

The Euro had been simply an excuse to get cheap credit for the piigs. The sad part is that all that money didn't go to some kind of strong welfare or infrastructure investments, but it went mostly in untold rivers of corruption (via bloated public entities) which in turn brought votes back.

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
24th July 12, 10:13 AM
The perverse thing about the latest Spanish loan is the amount of interest. If everybody knows that this amount of interest is unsustainable then why the fuck lend it at that rate?

Is it because our sociopathic banking overlards are waiting of another bailout/pay off?

BASTARDS!

Feryk
24th July 12, 11:22 AM
No, idiot. That's the market saying 'we don't fucking trust you, so you'll need to pay a ridiculous amount of interest because we're pretty sure you are gonna default somewhere along the line'.

The person lending them the money wants to be compensated for the risk. And YES, they know it's unsustainable. Essentially anyone lending these idiots money right now is betting that they will get bailed out and be able to make the payments.

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
24th July 12, 11:30 AM
Didnt you just say the exact same thing?

Feryk
24th July 12, 11:59 AM
They are not sociopathic. They are gamblers. You asked WHY. The answer is because they are betting on the future.

If anything, it's a show of faith in the Euro.

Lollius Urbicus
24th July 12, 12:31 PM
The sad part is that all that money didn't go to some kind of strong welfare or infrastructure investments, but it went mostly in untold rivers of corruption (via bloated public entities) which in turn brought votes back.
Err what?

That money was used by the PIGS to fund huge welfare programs, which were specifically designed to buy votes.

Welfare was the 'investment' that is part of the reason the PIGS and in such a shit state.



If anything, it's a show of faith in the Euro.
If I were a shareholder and found out that my company was holding debt of southern European countries I would be deeply unimpressed.

Fearless Ukemi
24th July 12, 12:31 PM
I don't think so,too many interests to keep it afloat some more.
But if Spain goes bust, then there's some for everyone.

Germans have all the qualities but also the vice of self-destruction when at their apex, for not understanding the consequences of their choices. I think historians in the 22th centuries will come to see this as the third time in a century of them doing this.

I'm not sure what you are getting at. Isn't it mainly the German economy keeping Greece and Spain from going bankrupt?

AAAAAA
24th July 12, 12:54 PM
Err what?

That money was used by the PIGS to fund huge welfare programs, which were specifically designed to buy votes.

Welfare was the 'investment' that is part of the reason the PIGS and in such a shit state.


I'm not sure about Greece and Spain, but in Italy those votes weren't bought by an efficient and fair welfare system, but by distributing money in the silliest ways, mostly creating fake jobs in state entities. This combined with the growing cost of pensions due to population getting older. And with Italians being a bunch of morons in bad faith, wanting to believe Berlusconi and his fantasy economics, backed by the various Mafias.

I can relate to how Germans or Dutch see Spain or Italy, because Italians from Milan or Turin feel the same way Sicily or Campania, and not without right.

Couple fun facts about Sicily: they spend eight times more than Lombardy for the same number of regional employees. How? Quick tabloid-friendly example: I read about a guy working for the Region as a snow-plower. He got a fixed pay, plus dozens of extra hours every month. Summer included. In Palermo.

Feryk
24th July 12, 01:19 PM
My understanding is that it has been virtually impossible to lay people off/fire them in Italy or Spain due to union contracts that are incredible. I know Bombardier used to compete for contracts for trains, etc. by offering to build them in the country paying the contract.

They later realized that once the trains were built, they still had to pay these guys - even if there was little work (maintenance, etc.).

This happened eight or nine years ago. Net result was that Bombardier had to undergo massive restructuring, and had to pay large penalties to the governments in those countries.

elipson
24th July 12, 01:26 PM
Its not just unions. Firing anyone in those countries, unions or not, requires MASSIVE severance payments. In the realm of several months, whereas in the US and Canada severance is only like a week for every year worked, and only after the first three months. Spain recently reformed this stupid rule, and caused massive demonstrations, but it was a fundamentally right move.

France is just as bad.

AAAAAA
24th July 12, 02:05 PM
That's very true and it's also why people under 40 are mostly working as "contractors" while doing the same stuff a normal employee does, without a hint of those benefits or safety, and therefore out of the loan market. Basically who's in is in.

The unions fought and won battles for many basic rights. Right now they're just a lobby figthing to keep their privileges, paid for by the newer generations.

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
24th July 12, 02:09 PM
They are not sociopathic.

How can you be so sure? They certain full fill alot of criteria.


Sociopathy is the result of social conditioning which leads to a lack of natural human values. It refers strictly to a social condition where a person knows, yet has been socially conditioned to disregard, the intrinsic human values which are believed to be universal.


If anything, it's a show of faith in the Euro.

Faith in the ability to be payed back regardless of default.

Feryk
24th July 12, 02:32 PM
Define 'intrinsic human values', and we can discuss.

There is a lot of literature that says most corporations behave as a psychopath would. There is one difference, however:

Corporations are not people. They are collectives of people acting in their OWN best interests.

Lollius Urbicus
24th July 12, 02:35 PM
There is a lot of literature that says most corporations behave as a psychopath would.
All of it, however, produced by ideologically motivated left wing academics with a pathological hatred of capitalism and private enterprise.

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
24th July 12, 03:03 PM
I'm not talking about corporations, I'm talking about the general make up of a person or people who think(s) its OK to completely bankrupt a nation to make a quick buck.

You dont have to be left-wing to know your being ripped of by cumpulsive gamblers with personality disorders that would get most people locked up.

Cullion
24th July 12, 03:16 PM
The perverse thing about the latest Spanish loan is the amount of interest. If everybody knows that this amount of interest is unsustainable then why the fuck lend it at that rate?

Is it because our sociopathic banking overlards are waiting of another bailout/pay off?

BASTARDS!

There's a fundamental misunderstanding in this post, and it's this:-

If they didn't think they was any chance of bailout, the interest rate would be even higher.

If you therefore think it's irresponsible to lend them money at all, because they'll never be able to pay the interest, consider how you'd feel if the headline was 'international investors force immediate budget cuts of x% in Spain. unemployment benefit cheques start bouncing'.

If what you'd really like to say is 'well I think all those foreign investors should be forced to lend them money at a lower interest rate that I personally consider to be fair', then please do, and we'll take it from there.

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
24th July 12, 03:22 PM
OK I'll go with that lets see where that gets us.

Cullion
24th July 12, 03:30 PM
Well, if we insisted the price be lower, we'd have a few problems to resolve. This is the first one:-

What is the enforcement mechanism? These people are global investors. They can choose to invest elsewhere, or not at all. If they think that the interest rate you demand doesn't fairly represent the risk of non-payment, you might well find you'd just dried up deficit funding altogether for the country in question.

What do you plan to do to make some funding source agree to this new interest rate of yours?

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
24th July 12, 03:53 PM
I dont think you can make them that's the perverse thing about it. They justify the interest rate by judging the risk to repayment but the interest itself is so high that it increases the risk.

Which is why I can only imagine that the people insisting on the high interest rate are sociopathic by nature.

Feryk
24th July 12, 04:03 PM
I'm not talking about corporations, I'm talking about the general make up of a person or people who think(s) its OK to completely bankrupt a nation to make a quick buck.

You dont have to be left-wing to know your being ripped of by cumpulsive gamblers with personality disorders that would get most people locked up.

So, George Soros, then? It's basically what he did to Malaysia in the 90s.

Do some homework before you agree out of hand. George is the deep end of the pool.

Feryk
24th July 12, 04:05 PM
You still haven't defined 'intrinsic human values'. Let's get that out on the table.

What the hell are they?

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
24th July 12, 04:18 PM
You still haven't defined 'intrinsic human values'. Let's get that out on the table.

What the hell are they?

OK so value is more subjective than intrinsic, so I guess there is no objective value scale upon which to place human worth.

That said I will rephrase my definition of sociopath in line with WHO's International Statistical Classification of Diseases and Related Health Problems,

It is characterized by at least 3 of the following:

Callous unconcern for the feelings of others.
Gross and persistent attitude of irresponsibility and disregard for social norms, rules, and obligations.
Incapacity to maintain enduring relationships, though having no difficulty in establishing them.
Very low tolerance to frustration and a low threshold for discharge of aggression, including violence.
Incapacity to experience guilt or to profit from experience, particularly punishment.
Markedly prone to blame others or to offer plausible rationalizations for the behavior that has brought the person into conflict with society.

I'll opt for 1, 2 and 5.

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
24th July 12, 04:31 PM
So, George Soros, then? It's basically what he did to Malaysia in the 90s.

Do I think Soros is capable of ruthless financial transactions that affect large populations, yes I do.

Do I think that Soros spends a massive amount of money pushing his own political agenda, yes I do.

Sure I agree with some of his opinions but by no means all, the whole international governance ting is worrying.

All in all I think he's a bastard that sometimes I agree with.

Cullion
24th July 12, 04:33 PM
I dont think you can make them that's the perverse thing about it. They justify the interest rate by judging the risk to repayment but the interest itself is so high that it increases the risk.

The interest rate is not set by a committee of investors meeting in a discrete luxury hotel, it is set by an enormous open auction, and the price settles at a very, very, temporary equilibrium representing what people are prepared to pay.



Which is why I can only imagine that the people insisting on the high interest rate are sociopathic by nature.

Are they more sociopathic than the people who refuse to lend altogether ?
Would it be sociopathic of them to completely ignore the interests of the people whose money they are investing ? (a lot of these people will be working for pension funds)

You seem to be saying that only somebody willing to ignore the risk and bid more for the debt than any rational assessment suggests it is worth is a non-sociopath. Even if that means they're risking bankrupting the pensioners they represent.

Think it through, and come back to me.

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
24th July 12, 04:42 PM
Are they more sociopathic than the people who refuse to lend altogether ?
Would it be sociopathic of them to completely ignore the interests of the people whose money they are investing ?

Some people get a kick out of risk.


(a lot of these people will be working for pension funds)

Oh yeah that really makes a difference because pension funds havent been hit by bad risk management before eh?


You seem to be saying that only somebody willing to ignore the risk and bid more for the debt than any rational assessment suggests it is worth is a non-sociopath.

Nope, I'm saying that the people who are in a position to lend the money are risk taking unscrupulous bastards as this is the kind of person such businesses attract.

Cullion
24th July 12, 04:47 PM
Some people get a kick out of risk.

That's not the point. You're complaining about people willing to lend at interest rate X, but seemingly unwilling to condemn people who refuse to lend at interest rate X, going so far as to describe the first group as 'sociopaths'. Why are the people who are unwilling to lend at any price not sociopaths if the first group are ?



Oh yeah that really makes a difference because pension funds havent been hit by bad risk management before eh?

'Well they've gotten risk calculations wrong in the past so I think when a government wants to borrow money they should totally be proud of deliberately ignoring their risk calculations now. Fuck their pensioners'. That's the logical implication of what you just said. Think it over, because I don't think you really meant to say that.



Nope, I'm saying that the people who are in a position to lend the money are risk taking unscrupulous bastards as this is the kind of person such businesses attract.

Why are they worse than people unwilling to lend money at risk ?

I can assure you I know which kind of person the government of Spain prefers right now.

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
24th July 12, 05:00 PM
Why are they worse than people unwilling to lend money at risk ?

I didnt see they were, that's your own staw man you built yourself.

Cullion
24th July 12, 05:05 PM
I didnt see they were, that's your own staw man you built yourself.

Oh, it's not a strawman, as we'll soon see.

So please clarify, are the people unwilling to lend money to spain's government sociopaths too, or not ?

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
24th July 12, 05:09 PM
I dont know.

Cullion
24th July 12, 05:10 PM
You ought to think about why, if you're going to be so darn sure that people who are prepared to lend them money are sociopaths.

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
24th July 12, 05:16 PM
Well see the people who are lending the money are doing so by increasing the risk by setting high interest rates and not caring really if this fucks over the Spanish people and thus full filling some of the criteria.

Its not a difficult argument to follow, I fail to see why you are having a hard time with this.

Feryk
24th July 12, 05:38 PM
OK so value is more subjective than intrinsic, so I guess there is no objective value scale upon which to place human worth.

That said I will rephrase my definition of sociopath in line with WHO's International Statistical Classification of Diseases and Related Health Problems,

It is characterized by at least 3 of the following:

Callous unconcern for the feelings of others.
Gross and persistent attitude of irresponsibility and disregard for social norms, rules, and obligations.
Incapacity to maintain enduring relationships, though having no difficulty in establishing them.
Very low tolerance to frustration and a low threshold for discharge of aggression, including violence.
Incapacity to experience guilt or to profit from experience, particularly punishment.
Markedly prone to blame others or to offer plausible rationalizations for the behavior that has brought the person into conflict with society.

I'll opt for 1, 2 and 5.

Think of the politicians in your country. How many on this list would apply?

I disagree with you on point 5. I think they are very good at profiting from experience, including punishment.

Feryk
24th July 12, 05:41 PM
Well see the people who are lending the money are doing so by increasing the risk by setting high interest rates and not caring really if this fucks over the Spanish people and thus full filling some of the criteria.

Its not a difficult argument to follow, I fail to see why you are having a hard time with this.

Well, see, the Spanish people have fucked over their bondholders by not really caring that their profligate spending and corruption have weakened their economy to the point where they cannot pay their debts, and not caring that the 'bondholders' in this case are banks and pension funds from around the world.

Care to follow the bouncing ball as to what happens if either the banks or the pension funds cannot meet their obligations because of the sociopathic Spaniards?

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
24th July 12, 05:46 PM
Well, see, the Spanish people have fucked over their bondholders by not really caring that their profligate spending and corruption have weakened their economy to the point where they cannot pay their debts, and not caring that the 'bondholders' in this case are banks and pension funds from around the world.

Well that actually that would have been two other groups of bastards called politicians and bankers displaying yet more behaviour akin to the sociopaths defined earlier.

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
24th July 12, 05:51 PM
Think of the politicians in your country. How many on this list would apply?

Oh you get me wrong, just because I think one set of bastards display sociopathic behaviour doesnt mean I think other groups arent capable of such behaviour as well.


I disagree with you on point 5. I think they are very good at profiting from experience, including punishment.

Mmm yeah I'm gonna change my mind and go for 6 instead.

Commodore Pipes
24th July 12, 10:00 PM
That said I will rephrase my definition of sociopath in line with WHO's International Statistical Classification of Diseases and Related Health Problems,

It is characterized by at least 3 of the following:
Callous unconcern for the feelings of others.
Gross and persistent attitude of irresponsibility and disregard for social norms, rules, and obligations.
Incapacity to maintain enduring relationships, though having no difficulty in establishing them.
Very low tolerance to frustration and a low threshold for discharge of aggression, including violence.
Incapacity to experience guilt or to profit from experience, particularly punishment.
Markedly prone to blame others or to offer plausible rationalizations for the behavior that has brought the person into conflict with society.
Well, dang. I was a sociopath in junior high.

Hedley LaMarr
24th July 12, 11:37 PM
Who do these European nations owe money to?

Cullion
25th July 12, 02:20 AM
Well see the people who are lending the money are doing so by increasing the risk by setting high interest rates and not caring really if this fucks over the Spanish people and thus full filling some of the criteria.

Its not a difficult argument to follow, I fail to see why you are having a hard time with this.

It's an obviously flawed argument. There is no secret committee, just a huge auction. It's the people who aren't willing to lend to Spain at any given interest rate who push the interest rate up. There's nothing stopping you bidding on Spanish bonds with your savings. Why don't you ? Why not transfer whatever pension funds you have into a SIPP and bid with those too ?

Until you do that, you are the guy who refused to bid in an auction complaining about the few people who did getting bargains.

Cullion
25th July 12, 02:21 AM
Who do these European nations owe money to?

Everybody who owns their government bonds.

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
25th July 12, 07:15 AM
There is no secret committee,

I didnt say there was. Please try and curb your compulsive strawman generator.


It's the people who aren't willing to lend to Spain at any given interest rate who push the interest rate up.


..and when they have squeezed the highest possible price someone jumps in. It is a direct result of the sociopathic culture of usary.



There's nothing stopping you bidding on Spanish bonds with your savings. Why don't you ? Why not transfer whatever pension funds you have into a SIPP and bid with those too ?

Until you do that, you are the guy who refused to bid in an auction complaining about the few people who did getting bargains.

Your desperate need to construct this red herring is amusing.

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
25th July 12, 07:17 AM
Well, dang. I was a sociopath in junior high.

This doesnt suprise me.

Cullion
25th July 12, 09:42 AM
I didnt say there was. Please try and curb your compulsive strawman generator.




..and when they have squeezed the highest possible price someone jumps in. It is a direct result of the sociopathic culture of usary.




Your desperate need to construct this red herring is amusing.

Your complaint is with the people who will offer to lend money at some price, rather than with the people who won't ?

You're either an idiot or a nut.

Feryk
25th July 12, 10:30 AM
I prefer to believe that Max is misguided. He is trying to pigeonhole organizational behavior into a psychological model because the conspiratorial left has told him so.

Be patient with him, Cullion. It takes time to change your paradigm.

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
25th July 12, 10:31 AM
Your complaint is with the people who will offer to lend money at some price, rather than with the people who won't ?

Sorry not buying into your deliberate misrepresentation of my position...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nauLgZISozs

Hedley LaMarr
25th July 12, 10:35 AM
Your mom.
If that was true I would be richer than you several hundred times over.

Lollius Urbicus
25th July 12, 10:54 AM
Who do these European nations owe money to?
Not sure how accurate this is, but...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-15748696

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
25th July 12, 11:07 AM
He is trying to pigeonhole organizational behavior into a psychological model because the conspiratorial left has told him so.

Not organizations, the culture surrounding usury.

You can use the word conspiracy I suppose, it would prefer to cast it as groups of primates who share a common personality disorder surrounding money.

Again you really dont need to be left wing or right wing to understand when people are trying to fuck you over. Bringing up such terms indicates a need to construct a false dichotomy based on associated stereotypical values of left & right wing groups. One can only guess that the need is based on the inability to construct an original argument and hence a reliance on a hackneyed method of argument.


It takes time to change your paradigm.

So it would seem.

Cullion
25th July 12, 12:10 PM
Sorry not buying into your deliberate misrepresentation of my position...



Your position is bullshit and you simply hadn't realised the logical implications of it because you like working yourself up into a self-righteous lather in judgement of people you imagine have more money than you. The reality is that you're trying to argue that high interest rates are entirely the fault of the people willing to lend money rather than the (much larger, and including yourself) group of people unwilling to lend money, which is one of the hardest economics fails I've yet seen on sociocide.

"Hey you prick how dare you exploit those needy spaniards by lending them money at 7%"

"I wouldn't need to if you were willing to lend them your own money at 3%, and I have a responsibility to these pensioners. Hey, where are you going?"

This is the conversation you need to have with yourself.

Feryk
25th July 12, 12:12 PM
Again you really dont need to be left wing or right wing to understand when people are trying to fuck you over.

No doubt. The question is which people, and how. The people lending the spendaholics money have a role to play, no doubt. However, I do not believe they are responsible for the current economic crises. That falls squarely on the politicians who kept robbing the future to pay for idiotic programs in the present, and the morons who voted for them.

Over the last four years, I have come to believe that there are a number of people in finance who are truly evil. Do not think I am defending them.

I disagree with your premise that the bond auction is an exercise in usury.

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
25th July 12, 12:28 PM
No doubt. The question is which people, and how. The people lending the spendaholics money have a role to play, no doubt. However, I do not believe they are responsible for the current economic crises. That falls squarely on the politicians who kept robbing the future to pay for idiotic programs in the present, and the morons who voted for them.

I agree but I also think that the money lenders are to blame as well, sub-prime anyone? (I also think that alot of politicians have narcissistic personality disorders)


I disagree with your premise that the bond auction is an exercise in usury.

Why it appears to fit the definition so well?


usury [ˈjuːʒərɪ]

n pl -ries

1. (Economics, Accounting & Finance / Banking & Finance) the act or practice of loaning money at an exorbitant rate of interest

2. (Economics, Accounting & Finance / Banking & Finance) an exorbitant or unlawfully high amount or rate of interest

3. (Economics, Accounting & Finance / Banking & Finance) Obsolete moneylending
[from Medieval Latin ūsūria, from Latin ūsūra usage, from ūsus use]

usurious [juːˈʒʊərɪəs] adj

Feryk
25th July 12, 12:34 PM
It's that 'exorbitant or illegally high' part you are having trouble justifying.

To say 'well, it's exorbitant because a rate that high would impair the country's ability to pay it.' is not a valid arguement. The question is whether or not the rate is fair GIVEN THE RISK involved.

The Barclay's fiasco is an example of a bank charging usurious rates for it's overnight lending. Wells Fargo got fined $170 Million for charging blacks and Latinos higher rates than white people.

Those are current examples of 'exorbitantly high' but only because they were in the context of the risk involved.

Cullion
25th July 12, 12:40 PM
What Max is really saying is that he thinks those countries should just slash their budgets so they don't need to borrow money, he just doesn't realise it.

Feryk
25th July 12, 12:42 PM
He would be correct, then.

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
25th July 12, 12:45 PM
Your position is bullshit and you simply hadn't realised the logical implications of it because you like working yourself up into a self-righteous lather in judgement of people you imagine have more money than you. The reality is that you're trying to argue that high interest rates are entirely the fault of the people willing to lend money rather than the (much larger, and including yourself) group of people unwilling to lend money, which is one of the hardest economics fails I've yet seen on sociocide.

"Hey you prick how dare you exploit those needy spaniards by lending them money at 7%"

"I wouldn't need to if you were willing to lend them your own money at 3%, and I have a responsibility to these pensioners. Hey, where are you going?"

This is the conversation you need to have with yourself.

You need to ask why you feel the need to create straw men all the time.

You are the one who has constructed the willing to pay and unwilling to pay dichotomy not me. I said that the culture in which such acts of wanton usury are allowed, even encouraged, exhibits sociopathic characteristics and that these can be seen clearly by the actions of the usurers screwing over Spain at the moment.

But by all means keep creating spurious arguments to make a point that nobody was arguing about, its kinda cute.

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
25th July 12, 12:50 PM
It's that 'exorbitant or illegally high' part you are having trouble justifying.

To say 'well, it's exorbitant because a rate that high would impair the country's ability to pay it.' is not a valid arguement. The question is whether or not the rate is fair GIVEN THE RISK involved.

The Barclay's fiasco is an example of a bank charging usurious rates for it's overnight lending. Wells Fargo got fined $170 Million for charging blacks and Latinos higher rates than white people.

Those are current examples of 'exorbitantly high' but only because they were in the context of the risk involved.


Did you do maths at school?

The increase in the rate INCREASES the risk....its not hard to figure that out surely. In which case the interest IS too high.

Cullion
25th July 12, 12:50 PM
You need to ask why you feel the need to create straw men all the time.

It's not a straw man, it's a logical implication of your position which you yourself hadn't realised. You're welcome.



You are the one who has constructed the willing to pay and unwilling to pay dichotomy not me.

That's because it's there, whether you like it or not. You just want to pretend it doesn't exist so you can carry on ranting about people who are willing to pay without having to face up to the responsibility of everybody who's not willing to pay. The people who don't bid in auctions participate in them just as much as the people who do.



I said that the culture in which such acts of wanton usury are allowed, even encouraged, exhibits sociopathic characteristics and that these can be seen clearly by the actions of the usurers screwing over Spain at the moment.

Yes, but if you thought about it clearly just for a second, you'd realise you're talking bullshit.

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
25th July 12, 12:52 PM
What Max is really saying is that he thinks those countries should just slash their budgets so they don't need to borrow money, he just doesn't realise it.

I think that is part of the issue yes I do realise that.

Cullion
25th July 12, 12:54 PM
The increase in the rate INCREASES the risk....its not hard to figure that out surely. In which case the interest IS too high.

Yes, the funds involved are aware of that. The risk of default produced by an interest rate does indeed feed back into the bidding calculations of many participants in these auctions. However, we could solve your problem, for a little bit, by insisting that all of the banks and pension funds be forced to ignore the risk and overbid for the bonds. That couldn't cause any problems later, could it ?

Or how about the UK govt. just force you to buy those bonds, to force the interest rate down ?

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
25th July 12, 01:00 PM
It's not a straw man, it's a logical implication of your position which you yourself hadn't realised. You're welcome.

No, no it wasn`t. It was an attempt to construct an argument that only you were having in order to stroke your ego.


That's because it's there, whether you like it or not. You just want to pretend it doesn't exist so you can carry on ranting about people who are willing to pay without having to face up to the responsibility of everybody who's not willing to pay. The people who don't bid in auctions participate in them just as much as the people who do.

Nice try but ultimately your flogging of this particular Scarecrow is going nowhere.

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
25th July 12, 01:07 PM
Yes, the funds involved are aware of that. The risk of default produced by an interest rate does indeed feed back into the bidding calculations of many participants in these auctions. However, we could solve your problem, for a little bit, by insisting that all of the banks and pension funds be forced to ignore the risk and overbid for the bonds. That couldn't cause any problems later, could it ?

Or how about the UK govt. just force you to buy those bonds, to force the interest rate down ?


Neither of those stratagems would work and you know it.

Cullion
25th July 12, 01:10 PM
No, no it wasn`t. It was an attempt to construct an argument that only you were having in order to stroke your ego.

Yes, yes it was. The penny will drop soon enough.



Nice try but ultimately your flogging of this particular Scarecrow is going nowhere.

So your contention is that the auction price of, let's say, a house, is not influence by how many people are willing to bid on it ?

You're saying that if I hold such an auction in a town of 1000, and 999 of those people are simply not interested in buying the house at any price, say because they think there's a risk it will fall down soon, than this has no material effect on the price of the house ?

Or is it that you think it *does* have an effect, but if the one guy who bids gets it at a relatively low price (after all, it is a bit risky. it might fall down), it's all his fault for driving the price of the house down? It's got nothing to do with the other 999 people who heard about the auction and said 'nah, not interested, too risky'.

Is that what you actually believe?

If not, please explain how this analogy parts from the bond auction we are discussing.

Cullion
25th July 12, 01:11 PM
Neither of those stratagems would work and you know it.

Oh, I'm very aware of the problems with them.

Tell me, how do you plan to stop these evil sociopaths from bidding in auctions you won't have any part in ?

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
25th July 12, 01:17 PM
So your contention is that the auction price of, let's say, a house, is not influence by how many people are willing to bid on it ?

No that is not my contention, that was your fallacious Scarecrow friend.

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
25th July 12, 01:18 PM
Oh, I'm very aware of the problems with them.

Tell me, how do you plan to stop these evil sociopaths from bidding in auctions you won't have any part in ?

I dont have a plan do you?

Hedley LaMarr
25th July 12, 01:40 PM
No that is not my contention, that was your fallacious Scarecrow friend.
Then who exactly do you think will loan money in defaulting European nations if banks/Germany/Mr Moneybags/WTO/IMF decide not to dole out money at low interest rates?

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
25th July 12, 01:49 PM
I dont have a solution. I just pointed out that the situation was perverse and the result of an underlying sociopathy in global finance.

Hedley LaMarr
25th July 12, 01:53 PM
I dont have a solution. I just pointed out that the situation was perverse.
No, you proposed a solution (Make the loans have a low interest rate) and Cullion blew a huge whole in your solution (you really can't force someone to make a loan, they can just walk away from the table) and you then claimed it was a strawman.

The obvious solution is make all debt worldwide null and void. It will take a few decades to come up with replacements for credit as a catalyst for economic growth, but none can happen as long as our only options are "taking out loans no one can afford" or "starve."

Cullion
25th July 12, 01:57 PM
I dont have a solution. I just pointed out that the situation was perverse and the result of an underlying sociopathy in global finance.

But people still willing to lend these fuckers money are practically engaging in charity at the moment. You are pinning the blame on the wrong people.

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
25th July 12, 02:01 PM
No, you proposed a solution (Make the loans have a low interest rate) and Cullion blew a huge whole in your solution (you really can't force someone to make a loan, they can just walk away from the table)

Errr no go back and you`ll find a post where I concede that point



and you then claimed it was a strawman.

No I didnt claim that argument was a straw man...do try and keep up LaMarr.


The obvious solution is make all debt worldwide null and void.

<runs out to get massive loan before the armistice>

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
25th July 12, 02:03 PM
But people still willing to lend these fuckers money are practically engaging in charity at the moment. You are pinning the blame on the wrong people.

No I think there is enough blame to spread around the narcissistic politicians, the ill-informed populations and the sociopathic financiers.

Cullion
25th July 12, 02:10 PM
And the ones who are willing to lend them money at this point are hardly sociopathic.

Hedley LaMarr
25th July 12, 02:14 PM
<runs out to get massive loan before the armistice>
Might as well, once gas costs $10 a gallon I doubt the government will be able to enforce it.

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
25th July 12, 02:23 PM
And the ones who are willing to lend them money at this point are hardly sociopathic.

In your opinion. Whereas the way this thing has played out just highlights the sociopathic characteristics of the financial & political groups involved, to me.

Cullion
25th July 12, 02:25 PM
Are the non-bidders involved? Are you calling yourself a sociopath ?

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
25th July 12, 02:26 PM
Flogging a dead straw man, shame on you!

Cullion
25th July 12, 02:28 PM
It's not a strawman, and nor is it dead. The point stands. Non-bidders are as involved as bidders. And you are a non-bidder.

Hedley LaMarr
25th July 12, 02:29 PM
Flogging a dead straw man, shame on you!
C'mon dude, there's nothing stopping you from starting your own bank (you could do this easily in international waters) and loaning money to Spain and Greece. The fact that you aren't while you are so worried about their economic wellbeing is disturbing.

Cullion
25th July 12, 02:32 PM
He doesn't need to start a bank to purchase those governments' bonds. It just never occurred to him that as long as he refused to do so with any of his own money that his holier-than-thou attitude about people who were willing to lend them money was sorta bullshit.

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
25th July 12, 02:32 PM
Non-bidders are as involved as bidders.

So you are saying that its your fault?

Hedley LaMarr
25th July 12, 02:33 PM
He doesn't need to start a bank to purchase those governments' bonds.
I've always believed that if you see a problem and don't do everything to solve it, you are part of the problem.

Hedley LaMarr
25th July 12, 02:33 PM
So you are saying that its your fault?
Whenever you point a finger at somebody, you are pointing three at yourself.

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
25th July 12, 02:34 PM
So LaMarr how are you going to wipe out global debt?

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
25th July 12, 02:35 PM
Whenever you point a finger at somebody, you are pointing three at yourself.

tell that to Cullion and his straw friend.

Cullion
25th July 12, 02:36 PM
I am not complaining about the interest rates bid, I am pointing out the absurdity of you doing so. I am an agent of your enlightenment.

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
25th July 12, 02:38 PM
Did you come from Uranus?

Cullion
25th July 12, 02:39 PM
Nope.

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
25th July 12, 02:41 PM
I dont believe you.

Hedley LaMarr
25th July 12, 02:42 PM
So LaMarr how are you going to wipe out global debt?
It will wipe itself out when loans get so ludicrously large that debt outweighs the total worth of global assets, or when bank runs cause the FDIC to bankrupt, or a whole host of other detonators for the global debt time bomb
http://articles.marketwatch.com/2010-02-02/commentary/30800401_1_debt-hangover-debt-bomb-federal-debt-limit

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
25th July 12, 02:42 PM
COOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL!!!!!

Hedley LaMarr
25th July 12, 02:44 PM
The only thing that keeps loans real is the belief in them and the ability for courts and law enforcement to enforce them. When cops don't have enough gas to drive to your house we'll have bigger things to worry about than the loans we owe China and Wall Street.

AAAAAA
25th July 12, 02:57 PM
Hey look, there a study for it!
http://www.forbes.com/sites/chrisbarth/2011/09/26/new-study-old-news-stock-traders-are-psychopaths/

The point is that in the "market" there is a lot, a whole lot of people who act like sharks and have the real power to affect the rules worth for everybody --to their own benefit, often short-term.

Who's to blame I don't know, but I sure don't think we live in an unicorn world where all works like an oiled gearwork and rationality shines bright over wise and cautious pension funds and rational investors as Cullion tries to say.

Cullion
25th July 12, 03:02 PM
Hey look, there a study for it!
http://www.forbes.com/sites/chrisbarth/2011/09/26/new-study-old-news-stock-traders-are-psychopaths/

The point is that in the "market" there is a lot, a whole lot of people who act like sharks and have the real power to affect the rules worth for everybody --to their own benefit, often short-term.

Who's to blame I don't know, but I sure don't think we live in an unicorn world where all works like an oiled gearwork and rationality shines bright over wise and cautious pension funds and rational investors as Cullion tries to say.

Oh yeah? Well my study says that left-wing academics and the marginally employed European hipsters who hang on their every word are mostly self-loathing mild depressives who've retreated into a fantasy world where they're important and morally superior to people who earn more money than them.

Commodore Pipes
25th July 12, 03:08 PM
There is a huge spectrum between the extremes of sociopaths and wise, cautious, rational investor. Questioning one doesn't mean the other is necessarily true, c'mon people, we should know this shit by now.

AAAAAA
25th July 12, 03:14 PM
Oh yeah? Well my study says that left-wing academics and the marginally employed European hipsters who hang on their every word are mostly self-loathing mild depressives who've retreated into a fantasy world where they're important and morally superior to people who earn more money than them.

I'ts nice you share the result of your efforts, but how does it relate to the financial market? I know you aren't that dumb so I guess you just felt like throwing a little fit, it's okay.

Cullion
25th July 12, 03:17 PM
I'ts nice you share the result of your efforts, but how does it relate to the financial market? I know you aren't that dumb so I guess you just felt like throwing a little fit, it's okay.

Your 'study' is another one of those idiot studies like the Club of Rome report, based entirely on ill-defined or obviously subjective value judgements about people the authors don't like. It has as much bearing on the interests rates people are currently willing to lend to Italy, Spain and Greece at as a statement like 'Rare Earth Commodities traders appear to be competitive in a somewhat simillar manner to sportsmen'.

Feryk
25th July 12, 03:32 PM
I think Max is pissed that people/institutions acting in their own interests are not going to be defined as sociopaths.

AAAAAA
25th July 12, 03:33 PM
Your 'study' is another one of those idiot studies like the Club of Rome report, based entirely on ill-defined or obviously subjective value judgements about people the authors don't like.

So you don't like social scientists but you like traders? Have you reviewed your own value judgements lately? There might be the need of a study.

Feryk
25th July 12, 03:39 PM
So you don't like social scientists but you like traders? Have you reviewed your own value judgements lately? There might be the need of a study.

Excellent Idea! Your government should pay for it! Oh, wait....

Cullion
25th July 12, 03:43 PM
So you don't like social scientists but you like traders? Have you reviewed your own value judgements lately? There might be the need of a study.

It isn't a question of 'liking' anything, it's a question of being able to spot insubstantial horseshit written to appeal to a sociopolitical prejudice whilst disguising itself as science, for what it is.

AAAAAA
25th July 12, 03:47 PM
I do not understand people who think that the person or entity making a loan available to someone is the party that needs to be stopped or regulated the fuck out of and not the person or entity taking the loan. It is a choice. The party offering another option is not at fault.

Fucked up left wing thinking.

How did the loaners use the money they gathered from all the stupid loan takers? Did they put it under the mattress?

Cullion
25th July 12, 03:49 PM
How did the loaners use the money they gathered from all the stupid loan takers? Did they put it under the mattress?

The 'loan takers' used it to fund consumption beyond revenue, year after year. The 'loaners' are paying their staff, and paying dividends, mostly to retirees.

AAAAAA
25th July 12, 03:49 PM
It isn't a question of 'liking' anything, it's a question of being able to spot insubstantial horseshit written to appeal to a sociopolitical prejudice whilst disguising itself as science, for what it is.

How is that insubstantial? And you still haven't denied that you think major financial institutions work in the system without leveraging the power they hold. Which is funny because you basically said they get to make money for free in another thread.

Feryk
25th July 12, 03:50 PM
You tell us. You live in a country most affected by this. It's your standard of living at risk here.

Was it worth it?

AAAAAA
25th July 12, 03:51 PM
They used it to fund consumption beyond revenue, year after year.

That sounds like a risky investment. Who put those idiots in charge?

AAAAAA
25th July 12, 03:59 PM
You tell us. You live in a country most affected by this. It's your standard of living at risk here.

Was it worth it?

Of course not. I don't choose how my taxes are spent: I can only cast my vote.
With my own money you can be sure I won't take a loan beyond my means, ever.

Cullion
25th July 12, 04:13 PM
How is that insubstantial?

Because you're trying to give serious comment on the financial system based.on.the.results.of.20.or.so.guys.with.unrelat ed.jobs.within.finance.playing.video.games.and.com paring.their.results.with.criminals.

If you cannot see how this 'scientific study' may be, um, poorly designed, you're too dumb to have this discussion go any further.



And you still haven't denied that you think major financial institutions work in the system without leveraging the power they hold. Which is funny because you basically said they get to make money for free in another thread.

Yes, fractional reserve banking is a bad, bad thing. It is, however, not a cogent argument to complain at the funds willing to purchase your government bonds because of it.

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
25th July 12, 04:23 PM
I think Max is pissed that people/institutions acting in their own interests are not going to be defined as sociopaths.

As you are aware by now the point I'm making is that the finacial culture of this age is sociopathic in nature this is NOT the samething as saying all self serving people or institutions are sociopaths.

Sloppy real sloppy.

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
25th July 12, 04:44 PM
Your 'study' is ...blah blah.

Actually the article makes reference to a number of studies, articles and books.

AAAAAA
25th July 12, 04:49 PM
In my opinion the market IS affected by greed and an excessive risk-taking behaviour culture at the top, when the "top" becomes too powerful. The financial system comprises a lot of those people, who work in immensely wealthy banks that can move immense quantities of money, not just by the immaterial forces and textbook investors you talk about. I do not believe they should be the scapegoat of anybody's bad decisions, but I think it's silly to deny it.

AAAAAA
25th July 12, 04:53 PM
Oh and your "rebuttal" of the study is typical of the know-it-all who thinks he's too smart to be understood by such experimental studies. Which make up the basics of marketing techniques.

Feryk
25th July 12, 04:54 PM
As you are aware by now the point I'm making is that the finacial culture of this age is sociopathic in nature this is NOT the samething as saying all self serving people or institutions are sociopaths.

Sloppy real sloppy.

By now you should be aware that your use of the term sociopathic to describe a culture, or the behaviour of an organization is fallacious and inaccurate, especially since the term itself was created to describe an individual.

Look, social 'science' tends towards sloppy because it's damn hard to use the scientific method to test a hypothesis. Let's not muddy it further by misusing very specific terminology.

You want to say that the 'culture' of finance is one of greed and amorality? I'm with you. You want to say that it lacks empathy? I'd debate you on that, but I could see your point a little.

That doesn't make a culture a sociopath. In fact, for these purposes, I don't think that the financial community makes up a culture.

http://www.umanitoba.ca/faculties/arts/anthropology/courses/122/module1/culture.html

Lollius Urbicus
25th July 12, 05:23 PM
Why is someone who works on the trading desk of a bank anymore motivated by greed than someone who works in sales in travel agents?

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
25th July 12, 05:29 PM
By now you should be aware that your use of the term sociopathic to describe a culture, or the behaviour of an organization is fallacious and inaccurate, especially since the term itself was created to describe an individual.



met·a·phor/ˈmetəˌfôr/



Noun:




A figure of speech in which a word or phrase is applied to an object or action to which it is not literally applicable.
A thing regarded as representative or symbolic of something else, esp. something abstract.











Now you are aware of the concept kindly disist this foolishness.

Hedley LaMarr
25th July 12, 06:11 PM
Why is someone who works on the trading desk of a bank anymore motivated by greed than someone who works in sales in travel agents?
Travel Agents can't create money

Lollius Urbicus
25th July 12, 06:15 PM
Travel Agents can't create money
Nor can individual traders.

Hedley LaMarr
25th July 12, 06:52 PM
Nor can individual traders.
Their firm as a whole can, and the work of the day traders allows their colleagues to write bigger and bolder loans and derivative bundles. The only thing travel agents bundle are hotel and flight deals.

Spade: The Real Snake
25th July 12, 07:44 PM
Travel Agents can't create money

Travel agents get kickbacks from travel bureaus to determine where to persuade or dissuade their clients destinations

Hedley LaMarr
25th July 12, 07:48 PM
Travel agents get kickbacks from travel bureaus to determine where to persuade or dissuade their clients destinations
And that equates to travel agents creating money? I doubt many travel bureaus have the ability to issue bonds or create money. Are you taking a vacation from logic today?

Spade: The Real Snake
25th July 12, 07:58 PM
Tourists create money for whatever destination they choose

I'm on my phone so I can't look it up right now, but I would expect tourism dollars are significant for any nations bottom line

So yes, in a way, travel agents do possess the ability to print money for whichever tourism board makes it worth their while

Hedley LaMarr
25th July 12, 08:01 PM
Tourists create money for whatever destination they choose

I'm on my phone so I can't look it up right now, but I would expect tourism dollars are significant for any nations bottom line

So yes, in a way, travel agents do possess the ability to print money for whichever tourism board makes it worth their while
You are confusing the velocity of money with the creation of money.

Spade: The Real Snake
25th July 12, 08:12 PM
No, I'm not

If money is entering into an economy from an outside source, creation of money isn't needed

You are being myopic

Hedley LaMarr
25th July 12, 08:21 PM
No, I'm not

If money is entering into an economy from an outside source, creation of money isn't needed

You are being myopic
You are arguing that travel agents are "creating money" by bringing in money from an outside source, where you say "creation isn't needed." Are you drinking?

Spade: The Real Snake
25th July 12, 09:14 PM
No, just pointing out to you where you were completely incorrect in your statement

Travel agents can't create money


Perhaps you need to think thru your posts better

Hedley LaMarr
25th July 12, 10:45 PM
No, just pointing out to you where you were completely incorrect in your statement

Travel agents can't create money


Perhaps you need to think thru your posts better
I have no idea what you are talking about, I still cannot see any conceivable way a travel agent can create money.

Spade: The Real Snake
25th July 12, 11:00 PM
Sigh
Fine.....
Government

Hedley LaMarr
25th July 12, 11:02 PM
Sigh
Fine.....
Government
So because a travel agent takes money from a government agency which in turn receives funding from the government which can create money, travel agents can create money. By that logic so can every fast food restaurant, shoe store, construction company, or any other business that gets government subsidies or funding.

Spade: The Real Snake
25th July 12, 11:25 PM
No
I mean only the government can do anything
Isn't that the droids you were looking for?

Hedley LaMarr
26th July 12, 12:49 AM
No
I mean only the government can do anything
Isn't that the droids you were looking for?
No, I was looking for your explanation on how travel agents can create money, which government does not have a monopoly on. I just can't think of any travel agents that issue bonds, loans or derivatives. If someone can name one please inform me but my point was to show the difference between travel agents and bankers, who can issue bonds, loans and derivatives.

Cullion
26th July 12, 06:26 AM
Oh and your "rebuttal" of the study is typical of the know-it-all who thinks he's too smart to be understood by such experimental studies. Which make up the basics of marketing techniques.

My rebuttal stands. You get taken in by any sloppy nonsense that confirms your sociopolitical beliefs.

Cullion
26th July 12, 06:29 AM
p.s. Travel Agents don't create money and fractional reserve banks do.

AAAAAA
26th July 12, 07:49 AM
My rebuttal stands. You get taken in by any sloppy nonsense that confirms your sociopolitical beliefs.

No I'm not "taken in", I just found a study on the topic you were debating, which caused you to go hulkrage because you've been contradicted by some guys who devised a social experiment that you don't understand or agree with. Your usual defense is (misdirected) ad hominems and sarcasm, cuz they had CRIMINALS in it and they had less than a small country's population as a sample, it must be bullshit.

Now kindly make it clear for us: do you think that top-level bankers and traders are rational and wise guys who play by the rules and do not try affecting the market for their own gain?

Hedley LaMarr
26th July 12, 09:36 AM
Now kindly make it clear for us: do you think that top-level bankers and traders are rational and wise guys who play by the rules and do not try affecting the market for their own gain?
You really shouldn't pull these false dichotomies if you want a serious response.

AAAAAA
26th July 12, 09:43 AM
You really shouldn't pull these false dichotomies if you want a serious response.

My only contribution to this thread was

a) pointing out that study, mostly because it was hilariously on topic and
b) stating my belief the "system" isn't as nice and smooth as some seem to believe

Cullion hasn't said if he shares my belief, he only mocked that particular study, so I'm asking him. Where's the dichotomy? Did I ever say something like "investors should be forced to lend at lower rates!!!11!" ?

Hedley LaMarr
26th July 12, 09:51 AM
My only contribution to this thread was

a) pointing out that study, mostly because it was hilariously on topic and
b) stating my belief the "system" isn't as nice and smooth as some seem to believe

Cullion hasn't said if he shares my belief, he only mocked that particular study, so I'm asking him. Where's the dichotomy? Did I ever say something like "investors should be forced to lend at lower rates!!!11!" ?
You didn't link to a "study" you linked to a Forbes article that uses weasel words like "have similarities to psychopaths" to summarize several studies to make gross generalizations about thousands of people for obviously political reasons.

AAAAAA
26th July 12, 10:03 AM
You didn't link to a "study" you linked to a Forbes article that uses weasel words like "have similarities to psychopaths" to summarize several studies to make gross generalizations about thousands of people for obviously political reasons.

So where is the false dichotomy?

The studies can be reached by clicking on so-called hyperlinks.
Those aren't weasel words as they reflect exactly the results linked therein; it would be a gross generalization if it weren't phrased that way, actually. You seem to be confused.

Cullion
26th July 12, 10:41 AM
So where is the false dichotomy?

The studies can be reached by clicking on so-called hyperlinks.

Which I did, and then made fun of the loltastic methodology and gross logical category errors omade by the 'scientists'. It's basically a re-run of errors that went into your Club of Rome nonsense.

Spade: The Real Snake
26th July 12, 10:53 AM
So because a travel agent takes money from a government agency which in turn receives funding from the government which can create money, travel agents can create money. By that logic so can every fast food restaurant, shoe store, construction company, or any other business that gets government subsidies or funding.
In order for any of the above business to fall into the concept of "creating" (NOTE not PRINTING, which is what I think you were trying to suggest), they would first need to bring outside entities into the that government's borders.

AAAAAA
26th July 12, 10:57 AM
Which I did, and then made fun of the loltastic methodology and gross logical category errors omade by the 'scientists'. It's basically a re-run of errors that went into your Club of Rome nonsense.

You still won't answer my simple question about your opinion of financial bosses though. Strange thing, you usually have strong opinions and aren't afraid to share them.

I don't give a shit about this study, but I have to ask: how is the methodology flawed, again? Too few people? CRIMINALS OMG? What kind of social studies' best practices have been neglected?

in the Club of Rome thread you actually had some different data and methodology to suggest; here, it's just that you think it's bullshit but you give no standard as to what wouldn't be bullshit. It's easy to point and laugh but I'd like more from you.

Cullion
26th July 12, 11:51 AM
'Financial bosses' is too broad a category to be meaningful here. Feryk is a financial boss. The head of Goldman Sachs is a financial boss. A guy running a 50-billion dollar hedgefund is a financial boss. The treasury ministers and heads of the central banks of G8 nations are financial bosses.

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
26th July 12, 01:44 PM
FRANKFURT—European Central Bank officials signaled they are prepared to dramatically ramp up the ECB's crisis response by renewing the central bank's dormant government bond-purchase program.

"Within our mandate, the ECB is willing to do whatever it takes to preserve the euro and, believe me, it will be enough," ECB President Mario Draghi said in a speech in London, one week ahead of the ECB's next policy meeting.

His comments were echoed by French central bank head Christian Noyer, who said in an interview that "it is very clear that we will do everything so that the transmission of our monetary policy takes place in the best possible conditions for our economies."
"The ECB appears to be keen to increase the threat of the being woken from its hibernation period," said Ken Wattret, economist at BNP Paribas.

The ECB has purchased around €220 billion ($267 billion) in Southern European and Irish government bonds since May 2010, but none in the past four months.
Mr. Draghi's comments prompted a bout of market euphoria in an otherwise gloomy July. Unlike politicians who must navigate parliaments and other euro member nations to get things done, [B]the ECB's ability to print unlimited euros means it can match bold words with actions almost immediately, if it chooses.



Full article in The Wall Street Journal (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390443477104577550710566458228.html)

AAAAAA
26th July 12, 01:48 PM
'Financial bosses' is too broad a category to be meaningful here. Feryk is a financial boss. The head of Goldman Sachs is a financial boss. A guy running a 50-billion dollar hedgefund is a financial boss. The treasury ministers and heads of the central banks of G8 nations are financial bosses.

I do have a bias about those people. Not Feryk, unless he's also one of those you cited, which would do wonders to steer my bias to the other side by the way.

So you aren't contesting the studies, but their meaning about such a big category.

Feryk
26th July 12, 01:54 PM
Now you are aware of the concept kindly disist this foolishness.

You are seriously going to muddy the waters even further? Stop using a metaphor and start getting specific. You are discussing a specific aspect of group dynamics and human behaviour with a metaphor?

That's like trying to paint a masterpiece with a popsicle. The tool just isn't up to the job.

I thought you actually MEANT that these organizations were behaving as a sociopath would, in the actual definition of the term.

Since we are using metaphors, shall we discuss how the social matrix destabilization of Greece is reminiscent of Oedipus Rex? That would be equally silly.

Feryk
26th July 12, 01:59 PM
'Financial bosses' is too broad a category to be meaningful here. Feryk is a financial boss. The head of Goldman Sachs is a financial boss. A guy running a 50-billion dollar hedgefund is a financial boss. The treasury ministers and heads of the central banks of G8 nations are financial bosses.

If only I could create money I could keep for myself..:)

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
26th July 12, 02:27 PM
You are seriously going to muddy the waters even further? Stop using a metaphor and start getting specific. You are discussing a specific aspect of group dynamics and human behaviour with a metaphor?

The metaphor was well constructed. The behaviours of said groups of individuals when considered a single entity can quite easily be mapped to behavioural characteristics exhibited by sociopaths, as has been done.

But due to your particular prejudices you cant except the analogy in full, so have embarked in an increasingly bizarre attempt to undermine it. The latest being...


Since we are using metaphors, shall we discuss how the social matrix destabilization of Greece is reminiscent of Oedipus Rex? That would be equally silly.

Silly indeed!

Feryk
26th July 12, 02:32 PM
That was my attempt to point out the uselessness of your 'metaphor'. I would call it 'misuse of terminology you do not understand', instead.

I do understand the term you were using. That's why I didn't understand the point you were trying to make. Now that I get what you are trying to say, I'm trying to tell you that you are saying it incorrectly.

But you don't want to hear it. Are you an engineer?

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
26th July 12, 02:57 PM
Biomechanic.

Are you autistic?

I hear autistic people somtimes have problems with concepts like poetic license. (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/poetic+license)

Cullion
26th July 12, 03:19 PM
I do have a bias about those people. Not Feryk, unless he's also one of those you cited, which would do wonders to steer my bias to the other side by the way.

So you aren't contesting the studies, but their meaning about such a big category.

No, I'm contesting the studies too. They're flawed in stupid ways, too numerous to mention. Suffice to say, they aren't measuring anything clearly defined or important, they aren't dealing with useful populations for statistical purposes and they don't really support any useful predictive hypothesis.

Cullion
26th July 12, 03:20 PM
Feryk, it's a waste of time with Max when he's like this.

Hedley LaMarr
26th July 12, 03:29 PM
In order for any of the above business to fall into the concept of "creating" (NOTE not PRINTING, which is what I think you were trying to suggest), they would first need to bring outside entities into the that government's borders.
There's no substantive difference between creating money at a bank and printing money. The only real difference being the type of paper printed I suppose. And bringing in "outside entitities" and their money isn't creating money, that's money traveling from one point to another, ie the velocity of money. I really don't understand your difficulty comprehending this.

Feryk
26th July 12, 03:53 PM
Feryk, it's a waste of time with Max when he's like this.

Someone should let me know when he's not like this. I can't tell the difference.

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
26th July 12, 03:53 PM
Feryk, it's a waste of time with Max when he's right.

AAAAAA
26th July 12, 04:00 PM
No, I'm contesting the studies too. They're flawed in stupid ways, too numerous to mention. Suffice to say, they aren't measuring anything clearly defined or important, they aren't dealing with useful populations for statistical purposes and they don't really support any useful predictive hypothesis.

Do you have in mind a social sciences study that satisfies nicely those conditions?

Cullion
26th July 12, 04:08 PM
Do you have in mind a social sciences study that satisfies nicely those conditions?

There are very rare. I have a secret to tell you; The social sciences, in the main, aren't real sciences, they're largely composed of various political opinions cloaked in scientific language to make them sound like facts rather than opinions.

Feryk
26th July 12, 04:14 PM
It's hard to be right when you don't understand what you are saying, Max.

Feryk
26th July 12, 04:17 PM
Social 'sciences' are at their best when they are quantifying various variables, then using statistical analysis to determine if the variables are related the way they hypothesize.

Other than that, it comes down to surveys of various facts, and methodology.

Behaviourism is a school of thought that uses as much of the scientific method as possible. Psychometrics is good that way as well.

Most of economics, not so much.

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
26th July 12, 04:30 PM
I don't understand what you are saying, Max.

Feryk
26th July 12, 04:33 PM
Are you pouting now?

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
26th July 12, 04:36 PM
Would you like me to?

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
26th July 12, 04:48 PM
I have a poker up my anus

Hedley LaMarr
26th July 12, 04:48 PM
There are very rare. I have a secret to tell you; The social sciences, in the main, aren't real sciences, they're largely composed of various political opinions cloaked in scientific language to make them sound like facts rather than opinions.
Pretty much. Anthropology is a haven for would-be Weatherman from the 70s, political science is full of wonks of every political stripe, psychology is more or less a cover for fascists with a penchant for mind control, economics is for right wing neckbeards and their leftist counterparts are in philosophy. Sociology is the bottom of the barrel, and the average sociology student is a dullard trying his damnedest to memorize the quaint vocabulary terms their professor hands them on a worksheet so they can keep playing basketball.

Feryk
26th July 12, 04:55 PM
Would you like me to?

No, I'd like you to actually THINK for a change, and stop blustering. Come at it from the point of view that you might actually need to consider something different.

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
26th July 12, 04:56 PM
A game of poker for my anus.

Feryk
26th July 12, 04:58 PM
Pretty much. Anthropology is a haven for would-be Weatherman from the 70s, political science is full of wonks of every political stripe, psychology is more or less a cover for fascists with a penchant for mind control, economics is for right wing neckbeards and their leftist counterparts are in philosophy. Sociology is the bottom of the barrel, and the average sociology student is a dullard trying his damnedest to memorize the quaint vocabulary terms their professor hands them on a worksheet so they can keep playing basketball.

Some of the most left wing liberals are economists. Lol at the right wing fascists with a penchant for mind control.

When I took psychology, I was stunned at the number of women who were in there, trying to get some kind of perspective on their particular neuroses. To be fair, I probably was a right wing fascist with a penchant for mind control.

Hedley LaMarr
26th July 12, 04:58 PM
No, I'd like you to actually THINK for a change, and stop blustering. Come at it from the point of view that you might actually need to consider something different.
That would require the capacity for growth and development. Do you think he has it?

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
26th July 12, 05:07 PM
No, I'd like you to actually THINK for a change, and stop blustering. Come at it from the point of view that you might actually need to consider something different.

It really isnt my fault that you dont get the wonders of the metaphoric aspects of language in their ability to connect seemingly disparate concepts together in a beautiful poetic synthesis.

Your rigid cognitive constructs surrounding the definitions of certain words and not allowing them to share their conceptual basis in other frames of reference is imprisoning your mind.

Your appeal for me ".. to consider something different." is your subconscious desperately trying to tell you to free yourself from your rigid cognition.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xiqmEibSY0I

Feryk
26th July 12, 05:09 PM
That would require the capacity for growth and development. Do you think he has it?

After his last post, I'm not hopeful.

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
26th July 12, 05:11 PM
:SHINNER:

Feryk
26th July 12, 05:14 PM
It really isnt my fault that you dont get the wonders of the metaphoric aspects of language in their ability to connect seemingly disparate concepts together in a beautiful poetic synthesis. You are a biomechanic. I would think you would appreciate the appropriate use of terminology to describe something.


Your rigid cognitive constructs surrounding the definitions of certain words and not allowing them to share their conceptual basis in other frames of reference is imprisoning your mind. So, any fuckwit can use whatever the hell terminology he likes, even when it leads down the wrong rabbithole? And I'm supposed to know he's an amateur/idiot and figure out that he didn't just mean what he actually said?


Your appeal for me ".. to consider something different." is your subconscious desperately trying to tell you to free yourself from your rigid cognition. This entire discussion has been an exercise in me trying to discuss this with you in good faith. I should have known better, but I wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt. Once again, you've proven Cullion correct. Congratulations.

Hedley LaMarr
26th July 12, 05:17 PM
After his last post, I'm not hopeful.
Come on, just a year or so ago I probably would've posted very similar schtick. Harsh, needlessly academic tripe that completely lacks flexibility with that stinging undertone of "someone please notice me."

Feryk
26th July 12, 05:18 PM
I never would have characterized you that way.

And I'm the one who has called you Darth Vader.

Hedley LaMarr
26th July 12, 05:20 PM
I never would have characterized you that way.

And I'm the one who has called you Darth Vader.
I'm an emo bitch who's going to evolve into 6'3" black badass?

Cullion
26th July 12, 05:26 PM
What you've got to understand is that max got well into adulthood before he got himself a formal education, so he's spent a good chunk of his life thus far as a reasonably bright but frustrated guy who's become defensive about not knowing things.

Hedley LaMarr
26th July 12, 05:29 PM
What you've got to understand is that max got well into adulthood before he got himself a formal education, so he's spent a good chunk of his life thus far as a reasonably bright but frustrated guy who's become defensive about not knowing things.
By formal education are you referring to school or personal education? I would like to know for future use, that character is common (at least in Wisconsin.)

Cullion
26th July 12, 05:33 PM
university

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
26th July 12, 06:54 PM
You are a biomechanic. I would think you would appreciate the appropriate use of terminology to describe something.

Sure and I also appreciate the fluidity of langauge.


So, any fuckwit can use whatever the hell terminology he likes, even when it leads down the wrong rabbithole? And I'm supposed to know he's an amateur/idiot and figure out that he didn't just mean what he actually said?

In this case the terms were well defined and the metaphor obvious (except to you it seems).


This entire discussion has been an exercise in me trying to discuss this with you in good faith. I should have known better, but I wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt.

I get that bit but you have consistantly failed to grasp the simple mechanism of metaphor. I dont know if you are being diliberatly obtuse or you actually are that literal minded?


Once again, you've proven Cullion correct. Congratulations.

Would you like to be Cullion when you grow up?

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
26th July 12, 07:08 PM
What you've got to understand is that max got well into adulthood before he got himself a formal education, so he's spent a good chunk of his life thus far as a reasonably bright but frustrated guy who's become defensive about not knowing things.

Its true that I didnt start getting any real formal eduction until I was in my mid 30s.

I think the arguing thing though stems from well before that, I've always enjoyed arguing even as a kid, its probably my main reason for signing up here.

Intellectually I learn more from argument than any other source except mathematics (which I suppose you could argue is a sophisticated form of arguing).

I'm open to new ideas and sometimes these new ideas come from somebody using concepts from one domain and then applying them in another, like the concept of sociopath in this thread. Sometimes they come from other people making well structured arguments...either way not knowing stuff doesnt make me defensive more curious which usually means more argumentative admittedly.

Hedley LaMarr
26th July 12, 07:15 PM
Would you like to be Cullion when you grow up?
There are definitely worse fates.

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
26th July 12, 07:17 PM
NoB?

Hedley LaMarr
26th July 12, 07:20 PM
NoB?
That's not so bad either, could do without the Mormon upbringing.

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
26th July 12, 08:43 PM
...and the plug up the arse....

Syntactical Disruptorize
26th July 12, 10:41 PM
Max, why exactly do you think it is the duty of other people to stop the PIGS from taking on loans at an interest rate to which they agree? Do you think that they are lesser nations who need other countries to set them straight? If so, which nations are particularly responsible for doing so? No evasions here -- name the nations.

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
26th July 12, 10:57 PM
Max, why exactly do you think it is the duty of other people to stop the PIGS from taking on loans at an interest rate to which they agree?

Errrr i dont.


Do you think that they are lesser nations who need other countries to set them straight? If so, which nations are particularly responsible for doing so? No evasions here -- name the nations.

Sorry Chuck I'm not following you. Do I think the southern European countries are lesser nations because of their finacial meltdown?

Syntactical Disruptorize
26th July 12, 11:03 PM
Errrr i dont.
Then why call them sociopathic when they do? (Never mind the fallacy of conflating individual and group phenomena; you'll call it a "metaphor" and huff and puff, and anyway your worldview probably defends strongly upon that conflation.)

Let's not pretend the term isn't loaded. Let's not pretend whatever the fuck else you were planning to pretend.


Sorry Chuck I'm not following you. Do I think the southern European countries are lesser nations because of their finacial meltdown?I am asking what nations you think are sociopathic for extending them credit. Don't sass me, chucklehead. This is a real basic question.

AAAAAA
27th July 12, 02:20 AM
There are very rare. I have a secret to tell you; The social sciences, in the main, aren't real sciences, they're largely composed of various political opinions cloaked in scientific language to make them sound like facts rather than opinions.

Economics is a social science too, and marketing is heavily influenced by sociology and psychology, yet they run the world. So don't pretend cold, hard economic facts are all that's about the "MARKET" and its ways.

Cullion
27th July 12, 02:31 AM
Economics is a social science too, and marketing is heavily influenced by sociology and psychology, yet they run the world. So don't pretend cold, hard economic facts are all that's about the "MARKET" and its ways.

What you just said doesn't make sense. Please rephrase it in clearer English.

AAAAAA
27th July 12, 03:00 AM
What you just said doesn't make sense. Please rephrase it in clearer English.

When you talk economics you're talking about humans, so it's silly of you to think that social sciences are bullshit and pretend it's all about a nice and testable model governing everything. People involved in economics at high level do shape it to an extent.

Cullion
27th July 12, 03:25 AM
When you talk economics you're talking about humans, so it's silly of you to think that social sciences are bullshit and pretend it's all about a nice and testable model governing everything. People involved in economics at high level do shape it to an extent.

Yes, but for the reasons I and several others have stated claiming that people who are willing to lend money to ailing countries are sociopaths or psychopaths is stupid and the papers linked in your article weren't really scientific. They just sounded scientific.

AAAAAA
27th July 12, 04:41 AM
Yes, but for the reasons I and several others have stated claiming that people who are willing to lend money to ailing countries are sociopaths or psychopaths is stupid and the papers linked in your article weren't really scientific. They just sounded scientific.

Not my claim.

Your standards for scientific studies is obviously much higher than the majority of social sciences studies, yet those un-scientific results do have a big role in "moneymaking techniques" so to speak.

Cullion
27th July 12, 04:48 AM
Not my claim.

Your standards for scientific studies is obviously much higher than the majority of social sciences studies, yet those un-scientific results do have a big role in "moneymaking techniques" so to speak.

Creativo, I'm not sure why you've sidestepped into you trying to defend the value and rigour of the marketing profession. Do you find yourself having to do that a lot in real life ?

AAAAAA
27th July 12, 05:20 AM
Creativo, I'm not sure why you've sidestepped into you trying to defend the value and rigour of the marketing profession. Do you find yourself having to do that a lot in real life ?

I'm simply following your wavy train of opinions to where it leads, to help you escape your hypocrisy for a minute. Basically your biases are so strong that you decided, "there's possibly no way to prove or disprove them through scientific experiments", and claim that everyone who's doing it is just feeding their own bias. That's bullshit imo.

Cullion
27th July 12, 06:26 AM
Let's say you conducted a study of a demographic that you wanted to market to. Let's say they're people into an extreme sport, like paragliding.

You find, through looking at their video game results and other test scores that they are 'risk takers. excited by risk'. You also find that convicted psychopaths share this trait.

Would you then conclude that paragliders were a good prospect to sell quicklime and dungeon torture equipment to ?

AAAAAA
27th July 12, 06:45 AM
Would you then conclude that paragliders were a good prospect to sell quicklime and dungeon torture equipment to ?

I suppose we'd need more than just one generic trait.
If I also established they are ruthless, more interested in beating their neighbour than doing well in general", and unlikely to empathize, I'd have something on my hands.
If I found that some of them have also those traits, I'd know that in the paragliders demographics I'm more likely to find customers for my torture equipment too.

Cullion
27th July 12, 06:52 AM
I suppose we'd need more than just one generic trait.
If I also established they are ruthless, more interested in beating their neighbour than doing well in general", and unlikely to empathize, I'd have something on my hands.
If I found that some of them have also those traits, I'd know that in the paragliders demographics I'm more likely to find customers for my torture equipment too.

No you wouldn't, because you haven't actually tested them for proclivity to torture.

AAAAAA
27th July 12, 06:58 AM
No you wouldn't, because you haven't actually tested them for proclivity to torture.

Let's say, hypothesis, that we knew from past studies, that those who have those traits are also likely to have a proclivity for torture. In that case, I would sell my rusty handcuffs to them. That would be the point, to predict something from something else.
You think that's impossible unless it's maths or newtonian physics do you?

Cullion
27th July 12, 07:27 AM
Let's say, hypothesis, that we knew from past studies, that those who have those traits are also likely to have a proclivity for torture.

There are no such past studies. The claimed link between psychopathy and paragliding is completely bogus.

AAAAAA
27th July 12, 07:37 AM
There are no such past studies. The claimed link between psychopathy and paragliding is completely bogus.

I stated it was an hypotesis. A generalization of a concept. You are claiming that there are no studies in social sciences that can be used to infer anything else in successive studies.

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
27th July 12, 07:52 AM
Let's not pretend the term isn't loaded. Let's not pretend whatever the fuck else you were planning to pretend.

Errrmm I'm not pretending it isnt a loaded term I chose it diliberatly.


I am asking what nations you think are sociopathic for extending them credit. Don't sass me, chucklehead. This is a real basic question.

I dont think the extension of credit is in itself a sociopathic trait. I think the manner in which the transaction was done is a symptom of a sociopathic trend in global finance, as I have stated in various ways in this thread already.

So your 'basic question for the chucklehead' doesnt make much sense in that context does it?

If your trying to make a point you'll have to be more explicit.

Cullion
27th July 12, 08:03 AM
I stated it was an hypotesis. A generalization of a concept. You are claiming that there are no studies in social sciences that can be used to infer anything else in successive studies.

No I didn't, I'm saying that no causal relationships were demonstrated in the material you cited.

AAAAAA
27th July 12, 08:50 AM
No I didn't, I'm saying that no causal relationships were demonstrated in the material you cited.

Okay. I thought we had moved on to the "secret" where all social sciences are just veiled biases with scientific-sounding bullshit sprinkled over.

Of course the studies don't say "TRADERS ARE PSYCHOPATHS", nor did I, but simply that they show some similar traits. Those can be combined with other predictors eventually.

In this case, the traders' tests revealed that they were significantly more rebellious than ordinary people. They also scored higher than psychopathic patients in terms of Machiavellian egocentricity and lying. They had significantly lower scores than psychopathic patients on blaming others, cold-heartedness, carefree lack of planning and overall "psychopath" score.

Cullion
27th July 12, 08:56 AM
Okay. I thought we had moved on to the "secret" where all social sciences are just veiled biases with scientific-sounding bullshit sprinkled over.

That's still true, but note my use of 'most' not 'all'.

AAAAAA
27th July 12, 09:00 AM
That's still true, but note my use of 'most' not 'all'.

I don't think you can prove that "most" of it is as such. That's just a bias of yours.

Cullion
27th July 12, 09:08 AM
I don't think you can prove that "most" of it is as such. That's just a bias of yours.

Not just me, obviously.

AAAAAA
27th July 12, 09:11 AM
Not just me, obviously.

Embrace your bias and admit it. You'll feel better afterwards, I promise.

Cullion
27th July 12, 09:36 AM
Nobody should ever believe an Italian who says that, ever.

AAAAAA
27th July 12, 09:40 AM
Nobody should ever believe an Italian who says that, ever.

We are old-fashioned, roofies aren't en vogue here.

Syntactical Disruptorize
27th July 12, 11:15 AM
Errrmm I'm not pretending it isnt a loaded term I chose it diliberatly.
Saying it's a loaded term doesn't mean you didn't choose it deliberately (note spelling). Are you actually this stupid? Did you not know what "loaded term" means?


I dont think the extension of credit is in itself a sociopathic trait. I think the manner in which the transaction was done is a symptom of a sociopathic trend in global finance, as I have stated in various ways in this thread already.
Yes, and it's a bullshit "metaphor", but that's not a legitimate response to my question.


So your 'basic question for the chucklehead' doesnt make much sense in that context does it?
It's your answer that is a non sequitur, not the question.


If you're trying to make a point you'll have to be more explicit.
Fixed.

What nations do you believe are being "sociopathic" by extending credit to the PIGS nations? Are there nations you strongly associate with this allegedly sociopathic culture and behavior?

Feryk
27th July 12, 01:24 PM
...and the plug up the arse....


Worried you won't have enough room because your head is already in there?

Feryk
27th July 12, 01:35 PM
Cullion;

Marketing actually uses statistical analysis to produce more predictable results than you might imagine.

They use factor analysis to determine what the relevant personality traits are to the purchase of dungeon equipment. Once they know this, they can then 'test' any population for relatively presence of these factors. They can even tell you how two different factors need to be able to interact with each other to produce someone likely to buy torture equipment.

They can do this with an alpha of .01 if they choose. They spend billions on this type of stuff.

Commodore Pipes
27th July 12, 01:54 PM
Saying it's a loaded term doesn't mean you didn't choose it deliberately (note spelling).

If that was a gentlemanly tip, great. If that was a dig, hey, knock that shit off. You shouldn't have to stoop to that on here.

Bolding of text is mine, for emphasis.

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
27th July 12, 03:15 PM
Saying it's a loaded term doesn't mean you didn't choose it deliberately (note spelling). Are you actually this stupid? Did you not know what "loaded term" means?

Yes which is why I told you that I chose it deelibur8lE because it was a loaded term. Jeez! and that wasnt even a complicated sentence!


What nations do you believe are being "sociopathic" by extending credit to the PIGS nations? Are there nations you strongly associate with this allegedly sociopathic culture and behavior?

I didnt mention any nations in any of my posts in this thread and if you are failing to grasp the 'bullshit' metaphor (as seems apparent from your inappropriate questions) then I can only suggest you try harder to follow what has already been discussed.

If you do that and you formulate a meaningful question, I will endeavor to answer it.

Hint: repetition of the question will not engender a response (even if a hilarious ad hominem or spelling correction is attached) unless there is a fuller explanation of its relevance.

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
27th July 12, 03:20 PM
Worried you won't have enough room because your head is already in there?

Hey you made a joke!!! Maybe you're not as autistic as I thought.

Feryk
27th July 12, 03:25 PM
Autism is not something I am afflicted with. Or is that another metaphor?

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
27th July 12, 03:37 PM
Oh maybe you are...

Hedley LaMarr
27th July 12, 03:39 PM
Autism is not something I am afflicted with. Or is that another metaphor?
I don't think he understands what autism is.
xkVhGLz8MKM

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
27th July 12, 03:43 PM
Maybe its Arseburgers then.

Feryk
27th July 12, 03:45 PM
I have Asburgers as much as Germany is a sociopath for lending the PIGS money to keep their profligate spending/corruption going.

Hedley LaMarr
27th July 12, 03:50 PM
1XmuUP8Z7r4

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
27th July 12, 04:00 PM
I have Asburgers as much as Germany is a sociopath for lending the PIGS money to keep their profligate spending/corruption going.

I knew it!

Feryk
27th July 12, 04:02 PM
If only you knew SOMETHING...

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
27th July 12, 04:08 PM
I nose stuff.

Feryk
27th July 12, 04:09 PM
No, you misunderstood. I was using a "metaphor".

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
27th July 12, 04:11 PM
Oh THATS what a metaphor is!

Feryk
27th July 12, 04:12 PM
Nope. I was just fucking with you.:headwall:

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
27th July 12, 04:15 PM
:(

Feryk
27th July 12, 04:23 PM
And you thought I didn't have a sense of humour. :)

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
27th July 12, 04:44 PM
:)

Cullion
27th July 12, 04:49 PM
Cullion;

Marketing actually uses statistical analysis to produce more predictable results than you might imagine.

They use factor analysis to determine what the relevant personality traits are to the purchase of dungeon equipment. Once they know this, they can then 'test' any population for relatively presence of these factors. They can even tell you how two different factors need to be able to interact with each other to produce someone likely to buy torture equipment.

They can do this with an alpha of .01 if they choose. They spend billions on this type of stuff.

Most of the time, it doesn't. Most marketing 'professionals' don't have anything like that level of quantitative skill, nor access to the data necessary to apply those kinds of techniques.

And nor did the people in Creativo's studies.

Feryk
27th July 12, 04:59 PM
Most of the time, it doesn't. Most marketing 'professionals' don't have anything like that level of quantitative skill, nor access to the data necessary to apply those kinds of techniques.

And nor did the people in Creativo's studies.

You can do it with a statistics program and three or four PCs. The biggest issue is spending the time to analyze the factors properly.

I've done it, albeit not in a marketing context. It's pretty damn cool, really.

Cullion
27th July 12, 05:15 PM
You can do it with a statistics program and three or four PCs.

Not if, like the majority of small and medium sized business marketing staff, you basically don't know anything about statistics and/or you don't have a broad or deep enough dataset.

Feryk
27th July 12, 05:19 PM
Dataset is a problem. to make this work a sample size of 4-5000 is necessary. Thats what would make it expensive.

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
27th July 12, 05:20 PM
The authors in Creativo`s paper were MBA students, I would have thought they`d have at least a good basic understanding of stats?

Feryk
27th July 12, 05:22 PM
You are kidding, right? MBA's are too busy testing Black-Scholes formulas, whining about Maslow's Hierarchy of needs as applied to HR, and cheating on their accounting courses.

Everybody has to take basic stats.

Very few take advanced stats.

Cullion
27th July 12, 05:25 PM
The authors in Creativo`s paper were MBA students, I would have thought they`d have at least a good basic understanding of stats?

lol. no.

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
27th July 12, 05:25 PM
So the stats isnt at a high level then? I dont know anything about the MBA course except in the last couple of years the Uni here has been putting its marketing machine in full gear for its MBA courses.

Cullion
27th July 12, 05:26 PM
Dataset is a problem. to make this work a sample size of 4-5000 is necessary. Thats what would make it expensive.

That's ridiculous. You can't have a single dataset size sufficient for every problem like this. Some of these problems would require a dataset harvested from hundreds of thousands of people to extract a useful signal.

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
27th July 12, 05:28 PM
How do you know have you done some of this kind of analysis?

Feryk
27th July 12, 05:29 PM
If you ask people in the Uni, they'll tell you that an MBA is a must for navigating the business world, the foot in the door of the powered elite, etc.

They do teach things of value, but IMO they way overvalue their own skillset for the most part.

If you really want to know the value of an MBA's training, talk to the guys who hire them.

Most of the incredibly successful business people I know loathe MBAs. They will hire them for short term contracts, at best, and ONLY to do something very specific.

The ones who are applying for a staff position are usually looking to build their resume. They come in, work for two or three years, and move on to another company. Either that, or they try to engineer a coup.

Feryk
27th July 12, 05:32 PM
That's ridiculous. You can't have a single dataset size sufficient for every problem like this. Some of these problems would require a dataset harvested from hundreds of thousands of people to extract a useful signal.

True, but if you are looking to build a set of factors for the behavior involved in the example, it's pretty simple. There won't be more than two or three that will give you a reasonable predictor of behaviour on a group level.

A survey of 5000 paragliders would give you what you need, IMO. Granted, it's not my chosen field so I may be wrong to a material degree.

Cullion
27th July 12, 05:32 PM
How do you know have you done some of this kind of analysis?

Yes, at work.

You work outside of academia now, right?

You will get to meet MBAs soon enough. Some of them will be have science, engineering or quantitative economics backgrounds. And some of them won't. Hard.

Feryk
27th July 12, 05:32 PM
How do you know have you done some of this kind of analysis? yes.

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
27th July 12, 05:46 PM
Yes, at work.

You work outside of academia now, right?

No doing the Post Doc thing.

Syntactical Disruptorize
27th July 12, 06:45 PM
Yes which is why I told you that I chose it deelibur8lE because it was a loaded term. Jeez! and that wasnt even a complicated sentence!
OK, you really are this stupid.


I didnt mention any nations in any of my posts in this thread
Yes, that was why I was asking: Because you had not said.

It's pretty obvious that you regard the PIGS as helpless idiots whose wiser and smarter neighbors are under a moral obligation to save them from themselves. I suspected it was because you see them as SDD and NRE, and your evasiveness on this question makes it a near certainty. I don't expect you to tell the truth about this, though.

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
27th July 12, 07:03 PM
OK besides the overtone of vitriol and supposition, I dont get what you are driving at reguards the posts I made earlier or how you arrived at the present fantasy you have about my opinions.

Syntactical Disruptorize
27th July 12, 07:49 PM
OK besides the overtone of vitriol and supposition, I dont get what you are driving at reguards the posts I made earlier or how you arrived at the present fantasy you have about my opinions.Yeah, as predicted.

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
27th July 12, 07:52 PM
WTF?

Are you having some sort of break down?

Seriously, what the fuck are you on about?

AAAAAA
27th July 12, 08:41 PM
He feels cuddly today.

Syntactical Disruptorize
27th July 12, 09:04 PM
WTF?

Are you having some sort of break down?

Seriously, what the fuck are you on about?
Sorry, Max, but your protestations are like PIGS currency: Debased through profligacy. You act like this all the time, and most of the time you're full of it. It doesn't work any more.

Sent from my Tricorder