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Lebell
6th May 12, 06:48 PM
This is amongst other reasons, I don't take Islam seriously as a religion.
Very interesting watch:
HKzXzCCVC1I&feature

Lebell
6th May 12, 06:50 PM
additional info: the title is a bit discovery-esque but Luxenberger is a valid scientist and expert.
I have read work from him but it's either in arabic or an explanation in German about the specific grammar and vocalisation problems of the arabic language which would have little sense here.

Cullion
6th May 12, 07:34 PM
AeZD0hH51V0

Lebell
6th May 12, 07:39 PM
not quite the same magnitude, fucko.

Cullion
6th May 12, 07:43 PM
just wait.

Lebell
6th May 12, 07:45 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christoph_Luxenberg

Cullion
6th May 12, 07:48 PM
What name will you take at your shahada?

Lebell
6th May 12, 07:53 PM
you mad bout tariq?
you guys used to...know eachother?
is this is what it's all about?
your trolling is a bit too obvious...you lost your edge.

Cullion
6th May 12, 07:57 PM
I promise you can have Lily as a slave when the Caliphate is restored.

Harpy
6th May 12, 08:55 PM
It'd be mutiny.

Also, this Luxenberger...what is he trying to achieve?

ICY
6th May 12, 11:01 PM
Tariq Ramadan is correct. Lebell is an idiot.

Cullion
7th May 12, 05:13 AM
It'd be mutiny.

Also, this Luxenberger...what is he trying to achieve?

99% chance he's attempting to lay the groundwork for some sophistic reinterpretation of the Quran so that it allows homosexuality.

Like Lebell does with Christianity when he gets all Gnostic.

Lebell
7th May 12, 06:16 AM
It'd be mutiny.

Also, this Luxenberger...what is he trying to achieve?

He tries to point out that the quran is nothing special, and that it is altered, edited to suit different purposes over time just like any other religion.
He tries to open people's eyes.
Most scolars agree with his conclusions but rarely in public because saying that the quran isnt the unchanged word of Allah can be expained as treason against islam, which is punisable wih death.

A poster like Ahmed would understand the significance of this effort, most of you here are too ignorant of the islamic world to understand it.

Lebell
7th May 12, 06:17 AM
also science vs religion: the evidence is overwhelming, yet where are the academics now who usually have a big mouth when it comes criticising any other religion?

Lebell
7th May 12, 06:18 AM
Tariq Ramadan is correct. Lebell is an idiot.

hey hey!
when did you get out of the institution?
welcome back!

Cullion
7th May 12, 08:30 AM
511G0UYVKZo

Lebell
7th May 12, 08:46 AM
haha they used to air these kinda discussions all the time in india.
hinduism vegetarianism vs islamic halal meats, which is better etc.
the accent brings back memories.

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
7th May 12, 09:04 AM
I thought it was generally accepted that changes had been made over time (except by those whos emotional amouring cant handle the concept)?

What about the Satanic verses?

Cullion
7th May 12, 09:48 AM
I thought it was generally accepted that changes had been made over time (except by those whos emotional amouring cant handle the concept)?

What about the Satanic verses?

You're lucky Lebell is here to explain this, he's read 2 whole arabic dictionaries and worked on a Kibbutz!

Vieux Normand
7th May 12, 11:47 AM
You're lucky Lebell is here to explain this, he's read 2 whole arabic dictionaries and worked on a Kibbutz!

Leb's mom was supposed to be stoned to death, but the surah demanding this penalty was eaten by a sheep. This happened to a book which "cannot be approached by any vain thing, either from before or from behind."

Cullion
7th May 12, 11:49 AM
sheep ate my homework? really?

Vieux Normand
7th May 12, 11:51 AM
sheep ate my homework? really?

At least it wasn't vain.

Lebell
7th May 12, 01:22 PM
You're lucky Lebell is here to explain this, he's read 2 whole arabic dictionaries and worked on a Kibbutz!

im sorry ive been places.
but im sure tenerife with your mates broadens your horizon aswell, just in a different way.
;-)

Cullion
7th May 12, 03:55 PM
I've never been to Tenerife.

Harpy
7th May 12, 04:47 PM
I can picture you in a skullcap and long flowing robes bending over for afternoon prayer Cull.

Cullion
7th May 12, 04:48 PM
Oh, I could go muslim, for sure.

Spade: The Real Snake
7th May 12, 04:52 PM
How do add "epicbeard" into pumped/paunch equation?


Sent by telekinesis via Cerebro

Cullion
7th May 12, 05:00 PM
epicbeard + 4 wives.

Harpy
7th May 12, 05:00 PM
Oh, I could go muslim, for sure.
That is what the Allied forces and I are scared of.

Spade: The Real Snake
7th May 12, 05:12 PM
Asalam alaykum


Sent by telekinesis via Cerebro

Cullion
7th May 12, 05:13 PM
http://images.ookaboo.com/photo/m/Prayer_in_Cairo_1865_m.jpg

Spade: The Real Snake
7th May 12, 05:24 PM
I think you just want an excuse to go unshaven and wear a robe and pajamas, in public


Sent by telekinesis via Cerebro

Cullion
7th May 12, 05:25 PM
Well, why not ?

Spade: The Real Snake
7th May 12, 06:39 PM
And an excuse to not bathe


Sent by telekinesis via Cerebro

Harpy
7th May 12, 09:08 PM
I named you correctly Redneck!

Spade: The Real Snake
7th May 12, 09:39 PM
What's your excuse, except for preemptive birth control?


Sent by telekinesis via Cerebro

Harpy
7th May 12, 10:33 PM
I was on the train to work this morning and had the ill luck to be standing behind an innocuous looking girl with a sweater that smelt musty/like urine.

I'm no rose but that was barf worthy.

Spade: The Real Snake
8th May 12, 12:09 AM
Rape-B-Gone

Adouglasmhor
8th May 12, 01:09 AM
Asalam alaykum


Sent by telekinesis via Cerebro
Aleikum-salam

Harpy
8th May 12, 01:21 AM
I thought it was wa-alaikum salam.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080911094143AAKIzCZ

Lebell
8th May 12, 04:38 AM
it can be both.
you say salam aleikum which is salam(peace) alei/3laee(to(wards)/for) kum (you plural)
and than you can reply by wa (and) aleikum salaam = and peace to you.

what they dont tell you is that it's a religious greeting.
they took it from the xtians (road to emmaus story) and nowadays xtian arabs or non muslim arabs in general wont use it, they simply say 'ahlan'.

I always grin when i see westeners walking around greeting everyone with salaam aleikum like they know what they're doing.

Spade: The Real Snake
8th May 12, 07:59 AM
waka waka waka

Lebell
8th May 12, 08:27 AM
WHAT THE FUCK YOU SAY BOUT MY MOM?

Spade: The Real Snake
8th May 12, 10:29 AM
WHAT THE FUCK YOU SAY BOUT MY MOM?
She hatched you from a beautiful egg.

OZZ
8th May 12, 10:55 AM
Interesting vid, thanks Lebell.

Adouglasmhor
8th May 12, 11:40 AM
WHAT THE FUCK YOU SAY BOUT MY MOM?
he said Bkem al lailah?

Lebell
8th May 12, 12:47 PM
he said Bkem al lailah?

bkem al lailah..oh you mean to say: 'how much (does she cost) at night...

Spade: The Real Snake
8th May 12, 01:10 PM
That completely explains why you call her
Lilai


Sent by telekinesis via Cerebro

Harpy
8th May 12, 04:36 PM
Lilai vs Lailah...different old chap.

Arabic can sound really alluring.

Well fwiw, Lebell is our resident Middle East relations and linguistics expert.

Spade: The Real Snake
8th May 12, 04:43 PM
Mole:

namechange her to Lailah

Make it so.

Lebell
9th May 12, 02:33 AM
Lilai vs Lailah...different old chap.

In modern day hindi they have some words from arabic: shokran in hindi is shukriya.
probably from the moghul era.
I've only recently started reading about the moghul& maratha history of india.


Arabic can sound really alluring.
Nicest name I came across for a girl was (phonetically spelld for english) 'Abeer' (the eer is not like beer, but a sound like in the english word 'pier')

It means (pleasant) scent.
From like summerwind or flowers.


Well fwiw, Lebell is our resident Middle East relations and linguistics expert.
It's funny how some people cant stand that.

Harpy
9th May 12, 03:41 AM
So did you sleep with this Abeer?

Lebell
9th May 12, 04:04 AM
ofcourse not.
I did make the aquantaince of some local misses, and ofcourse your average american, ozzie and english chicks.

Harpy
9th May 12, 05:37 AM
Culturally sensitive as well. I wonder if Cullion can wrest the title of 'EMEA expert' from you now.

I like the Arabic female names that end in 'a', like Aisha, Leila, Zara. So exotic.

Lebell
9th May 12, 05:50 AM
Zaynab, Nora, Saraida, Lama, uhm..and millions more.

Harpy
9th May 12, 05:58 AM
Iqraa, Samira, Aliyah, Kahdija, Jemima, some of my friends/their kids' names.

Anyway, back to Luxenberger...

Lebell
9th May 12, 06:51 AM
Iqraa?! LOLZ.
that means: Read! (imperative)

Harpy
9th May 12, 07:03 AM
My friend who named his elder daughter that said it was the first word
in the Koran...is that true?

Lollius Urbicus
9th May 12, 07:30 AM
The first word is 'In' in my edition.

Lebell
9th May 12, 10:01 AM
My friend who named his elder daughter that said it was the first word
in the Koran...is that true?

yes.
it's the first word of the revelation.
READ!
Mo: but I dunno how to read or write!!!

(lawlz)

Lebell
9th May 12, 10:05 AM
The first word is 'In' in my edition.

Yesh.
BUT: the first word spoken or rather dictated by Gabriel if im not mistaken is ' Iqraa'.
That's why it's significant.
Well only to muslims, personally I think the quran is a bit pompous and eratically written.
In fact, if I had wanted to troll the world in a drunk mood it's exactly how I would have written it.

AAAAAA
9th May 12, 10:10 AM
Yesh.
BUT: the first word spoken or rather dictated by Gabriel if im not mistaken is ' Iqraa'.
That's why it's significant.
Well only to muslims, personally I think the quran is a bit pompous and eratically written.
In fact, if I had wanted to troll the world in a drunk mood it's exactly how I would have written it.

Whereas you'd have written the Bible if you had taken shrooms right?

Lebell
9th May 12, 10:13 AM
This is another problem, in logic: imagine you're being taught that ' the little engine that could' came directly from the mouth of God Allmighty, and all the information and knowledge of this universe is hidden/present in the book, and you're also being discouraged to read other things (why would you right? every knowledge is already in there!), and someone else says: well, there's also books of Hemingway out there and I think it has significant things to tell aswell...

How would you react?
If you even tried reading it, you most likely wouldnt understand, because you're used to the level of ' the little engine you could'.
So it's easier to just denounce the other books and stick with what you know while going NANANANA.

Education, knowledge is the biggest threat and the islamic theology, the way it is designed, made sure learning or looking for other points of view is discouraged.

You stfu, have 'the little engine that could' read to you by someone who studied it and don't even think about reading those idiotic hemingway books.


This comparison might be offensive or painfull to some muslims, but it's pretty much spot on.

Lebell
9th May 12, 10:26 AM
Whereas you'd have written the Bible if you had taken shrooms right?

Hell yeah.

Also I get the impression lots of you didnt even really watch or understand the video in the op.
Im going to assume you didnt watch it properly.

Whats basically being said (and a very good case is made for this pov) is the following:

The first qurans were written when arabic writing didnt have vocalisations (the stripes above or underneath a letter and the little 9 sign), so if you know arabic you realise just how important those are.

example in this pre -vocalisation writing, using the english language:

Th dg wlkd thrgh th hs nd ws lkng fr hs bn (I mean the dog walked through the house and was looking for his bone)

Now FFW some 60, 70 years and there's a new invention called vocalisations...now we have had 60-70 years of oral traditions, aka chinese whispers.
Then, when they rewrite it but this time with vocalisations, you get something like

The dog was walking through the house/hands/? and was liking four (of?) his bain/bean/boone?

From this mish mash they didnt even bother to pick the obvious answers which made the sentence make sense.

Lebell
9th May 12, 10:37 AM
some actual examples, roughly translated: 'Say in the name of your Lord Who has created man from a cloth of blood...'

Same original rootletters but in Syriac/arameic: ' Pray to God who created man from clay.'

For the more seriously retarded amongst the readers I'll point it out: ' but silly lebs! cloth of blood...or clay? whats the difference right? lol zomg im smartz'

This (to me proves) indicates two things:
-The original texts of what is now in the Quran were NOT in arabic, but in syrian arameic.
-The texts were earlier and already existing.

Oops...

Another one:
arabic: ‘burning/with fire, the head with greyness.'
syrianarameic makes from same rootletters:' covered the head (is) with greyness.'

Just coincedense ofcourse.

oops...there's more...

arabic version:'We have given them (dead souls/people) to marriage..
syrian arameic makes: we have given them(dead souls people) peace.

ghee...wonder which one makes more sense...

I can go on some more but Im a bit bored with it.

The shocking thing about it is that it proves the Quran like any other holy scripture also has 'borrowed' from earlier religions.

I personally say:fine, why not, you can still see value in this holy book.
Loads of muslims shout: OH MAI FOKKING ALLAH, IMMA MURDER ANY KAFFIR WHO DARES TO CHALLENGE THE DIRECT WORD OF GOD.

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
9th May 12, 10:40 AM
Th dg wlkd thrgh th hs nd ws lkng fr hs bn

I could read that pretty easily with no ambiguity.

Cullion
9th May 12, 10:55 AM
I agree with Cracky's conclusion.

AAAAAA
9th May 12, 11:02 AM
some actual examples, roughly translated: 'Say in the name of your Lord Who has created man from a cloth of blood...'


I did watch the video and I find it a fascinating hypothesis, I just don't know enough on the subject to decide "OMG he's totally right" or "WTF he's cherrypicking and there's tons of contrary evidence".

Philology is a great tool and it's very sad that the religion in question forbids from using such a tool on itself; but that's what religions do after all, forbidding "dangerous" things.

By the way, isn't the Hebrew bible written without vocalization? I understand that the Jews just accept it as a form of ambiguity that makes the message even "holier".