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resolve
12th March 12, 10:04 PM
DISCLAIMER:
I've decided to split up my christian history and understanding thread into many smaller threads... because you guys know me and how I go on... I've almost gotten 20 pages worth of material and have barely broken the surface (partly because the history of christianity is a huge chunk of the history of the world). So instead I'll just make some christian exegesis threads here in Ground Zero and respond to questions of christian history in other threads as I can (such as the explanation of Hypatia I did before).

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http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/70/Lucifer_Liege_Luc_Viatour.jpg/200px-Lucifer_Liege_Luc_Viatour.jpg

This has come up before because I tend to be more sensitive towards non-believer's concerns and well-being. I genuinely care for and want them to know God and the joy of God as I and many other followers of God have and want them with me in the afterlife. I do, I really do. But even then if I can't have you there I will do my very best to treat you as the wonderful creation you are with all the love and respect that I can with the time I have with you. And part of that comes with trying to gain a full understanding between us.

So when a fellow brother or sister comes along to a non-believer and just mouths off "You worship Satan!" it puts me off. Why? Because it puts you off. BECAUSE IT'S RUDE AND INCONSIDERATE. But why do they say it in the first place? Many of the people accused of this consider it absolutely ridiculous. They do not believe in Satan in the first place and have no ties to Satanism or Luciferianism. And if they do they don't believe in the Biblical Satan anyways... So what gives? And in the atheist's point of view "why are they accusing me of worshipping a fairy tale?!?"

First we need to understand WHAT WORSHIP IS. Worship means, literally, to declare something's worth. In a sense it's a synonym to the word venerate but is different. There's a difference between veneration and worship. Worship isn't just praying or singing and doing some ceremonies. It's an act of living. Every action you do declares the worth of something. Whether that is the worth of the body, the worth of work, the worth of others, the worth of God, the worth of yourself. So to "worthship" something is to act towards it, to give it worthiness in your life. That's why in the New Testament

And then there's two explanations towards the Philosophy of it:

To the atheist/agnostic:

What is most important to understand about the Christian worldview is the end-goal of the Christian. Many people don't realize this but one of the main beliefs of Christianity is that God became man so man might become God. And you go... "WOAH that's crazy that's like some of these wacky New Age beliefs I've heard about! Becoming a god? Seriously?" But this process, known as divinization, is a core doctrine (even in the Roman Catholic and Orthodox traditions). Note that it is called Divinization and not Deification. There's a HUGE difference between those two words!!! The whole point of Jesus coming was to restore the relationship between man and God. Why is this important and what does it have to do with becoming God?

http://www.perissosonline.org/wp-content/uploads//2010/09/healing_of_the_blind_man.jpg

Part of it is understanding... what is God? In essence God is a relationship. Father to Son. Son to Spirit. Spirit to Father. All part of the same being. And God created Mankind in His own image (mankind being a triune being, body/mind/spirit) and at one point there was a God to man relationship. This relationship has been severed due to the rebellion of man (you can take the story of Eden as allegory or literal, for this argument it serves the same purpose).

The point is... the follower of God does NOT actually become God or become a separate god (like say the Mormons believe with their whole spirit-baby schtick). So what is this whole process of "divinization"? It is to enter into perfect spiritual relationship with God. And when you are in that relationship with God, which is not fully realized until death and the physical passes away, you then PARTICIPATE in God's nature through relationship. You are still you and God is still God. So basically it's semantics, but extremely important semantics. You aren't God but you are participating in God. So for the sake of this explanation I hope you understand the concept (if not I'll try to explain it better as it is kind of a heady topic).

This is why christians will often say when they find God and enter into a relationship with God that they've found their life's purpose, to be in His presence and to worship Him. Man was created in the IMAGE of GOD for this purpose. The purpose of man's creation was to be in perfect relationship with God and to RULE over CREATION. We were given stewardship and power over all of God's creation, being in perfect unity with it, and we threw it all away for our own selfish desires. While we still have the knowledge to do whatever we want... our ties to the physical and thus the physical world through us has become cursed with death and decay and all that goes with it because even God has a limited patience when it comes towards rebellion.

Now why, resolve, did you just wall of text me with that? What does that have to do with crazy arsed christians calling me a Satan worshipper when I don't believe?

It is then important to understand who Satan is in christian teachings. I won't get into all of it (especially the role of Ha'Satan in the Old Testament because too long) because there's some debate over the texts. So I will present what isn't really debated regarding his identity in a simplified form.

Satan is an ANGEL. Angel means, literally translated, "messenger of God" or "servant of God". The name often tied to Satan, Lucifer, means the "morning star". This name was in reference to a Babylonian king but has been extended to the personage of Satan as well. Satan was described as being an ARCHANGEL and the closest to God and also his director of music. You could say that Satan was, and is, an extremely powerful spiritual force.

http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/4149/luciferanangelofmusicn.jpg

Satan is the ENEMY. How did he come to be this way? Satan's spirit came to be in enmity of God's. He thought that because of who he was he didn't need to be under God's authority any more and that he could break away and become his own God and rule on his own. Being Satan and of course really clever and possessing great power... he was able to tempt many of God's servants, angels, to follow him on his path to glory (also known as demons) which is what became his downfall. God cast Satan out of his presence and is keeping him on the Earth... for why and for what purpose is never said. Although it is commonly believed that Satan is the temptor talking snake that is presented in the Adam/Eve story. Satan has come to believe in setting your own path and going your own way. All of his will is bent on destroying the man-God relationship so as to have man go his own way to whatever end (according to the Bible his destruction and subjugation under Satan's will, mostly without realizing it). This is why it was necessary for God to send the part of Himself known as the Word or the Son (Jesus Christ) as a human to die and restore humankind to Himself (as those who were faithful - the Hebrews - still were not able to have full relationship with God due to their innate cursed natures... until Jesus came).

So Satan's goal is to disrupt the man-God relationship... How does he go about doing this? By simply instilling in mankind his very own nature... rebellion against God and setting up yourself as a god. Even in nihilism, which is centered on the self, you participate in this same ideology. You are thus, by your very actions... giving WORTH to Satan's ideas. And by giving WORTH you are giving "WORTHSHIP" to Satan.

A really great way to understanding this mindset is to watch the film "The Ninth Gate" with Johnny Depp where Satan falls in love with the character Johnny Depp plays and seduces him to "make his own way amongst the stars" so to speak.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51002WM1E7L._SL500_AA300_.jpg


So literally christianity is all about, at its core, a TREMENDOUS SPIRITUAL WAR between the philosophy of God and the philosophy of Satan.

http://www.traditioninaction.org/Cultural/images/E008_Michael_Vienna.jpg

God, being your creator, wants you to come about and rediscover the relationship you were originally designed for. The physical body is just an interface, like a computer with attached hardware, for your spirit being to interact with the physical creation. The spirit being is to be in constant touch and participation with God and thus participate in His nature.

http://5magazine.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/memory.jpg

Satan wants you to become your own being, seperate and distinct from God... ruling over yourself in all selfishness or joining with others in a system that will lead you from God. To this end he will do anything, literally anything, to get you to turn away from God... whether or not it is harmful or helpful to you, or not. Because when you participate in this you are giving worship to him and declaring his cause to be the right one. So simply not worshipping God uplifts and gives worship to Satan... and thus you become under his dominion without knowing it. And that's why insensitive and rather ignorant christians who have simply been given the meme of "anyone against God is for Satan" will refer to you as Satan worshippers... disregarding the actual cultural ramifications and implications of doing so.... reinforcing the idea that you are displeasing to God or that God Himself is displeasing and thus you should strike out on your own and by your own understanding... they are actually helping the cause of Satan.



To the religious non-christian:

Hopefully you've read and understood the part I wrote towards the atheist above. To understand why christians will sometimes call you Satan worshippers you need to understand the arguments of who Satan is in christian teaching.

Now that you've read that and hopefully had the ability to remove yourself from your own worldview and just for a second place yourself within the christian worldview you can see how christians believe that all religion that takes you away from the one true God must therefore find its root in something else. And that something else is either centered in mankind's own understanding (thus giving worth-ship to Satan who wants this to happen) or is a direct creation of Satan or his demons himself.

And you go "Woah, but the christian Biblical Satan is totally evil right!?!? My religion is not evil!?! It contains many of the same good messages that yours does such as not harming others!!!! How could you say such a thing!?!? That is not what I believe! I think YOU are the wrong one!"

That's where you need to understand something else. Christianity is the ONLY religion (aside from some small cults and sects, which oddly enough stem out of christianity) that teaches an exclusive form of religion that says there is only one way to God; specifically that Jesus is the only way to a restored relationship with God. There is no other way. And after God comes to reclaim and remake all of creation only those that are restored to Him will be allowed to continue in creation... the rest ending up in Hell (and I've got a seperate thread for Hell as that is another complicated subject with various interpretations).

Buddhism in its various forms, Hinduism, Syncretism, Neo-paganism, a few forms of Spiritism, Shintoism (which has a hand in hand partnership with Buddhism in Japan) and many others all teach that your soul will keep being reincarnated until you either "get it" and join with the divine or are able to achieve enlightenment through whatever means (eight fold path, magick, diligent observance, the karmic system, whatever have you) and are able to strike off on your own as an enlightened being.

http://www.personal-development-coach.net/image-files/seven-chakras.jpg

Many many many of the rest of the forms of Paganism and Spiritism/Shamanism teach that the afterlife is based around your DEEDS in this life and whether or not you pleased certain deities with your DEEDS... Think of the Egyptian belief of weighing your heart against a feather. They sometimes believe in torment (the others I listed in the earlier paragraph believe that torment is part of the reincarnation process) but there's usually a way out of torment, usually through some thousand year spiritual struggle of some kind, and into a better afterlife.

http://booksofalltime.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/weighing_of_the_heart3.jpg?w=300&h=245

Ancestor worship sort of believes in really ancient systems that your afterlife will be comfortable so long as your descendants keep the shrines and offerings going... and sometimes even totally come back and haunt their shit if they get slacking. Your position in the afterlife, as a whole though, is determined by what you did, again, by your DEEDS in this life.

http://i.quizlet.com/i/d6RJmcvYpxN5rmHF2lh_XQ_m.jpg

Even the Muslims believe that Allah will tell everyone they were wrong to believe in other Gods or ways of religion outside of the Koran and while some really really really awful people will go to Hell eventually they will get out and everything will be hunky dory a-ok and balanced in the spirit world and everyone will be reunited to Allah in perfect submission. So you don't even have to be a Muslim to be set in the afterlife... although they also believe none of this will occur until Islam conquers the earth through whatever means possible...

http://notalemming.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/islam_will_dominate_the_world.jpg?w=232&h=217 http://californiaconservative.org/images/islam_nyprotest.jpg

EDIT (because Ba'Hai Faith Fail! and cuz I left out Zoroastrianism and gnosticism)

Ba'Hai Faith is a belief system similar to Islam (and it's ancient dualistic predecessor Zoroastrianism which predicted many 'saviors' to come) wherein they believe that many messengers of God will come and prophesy according to the understanding of the times including the Buddah, Jesus Christ, Muhammed and that the Báb and Bahá'u'lláh were the last prophets who wrote their holy scriptures. They believe in an afterlife that is attainable by anyone as they have a spirit journey through different spirit planes towards God. They do not believe in reincarnation in any sort of spiritual sense but that someone can experience the same "qualities" in their spirit as someone who came before. How you transverse the spiritual journey in the afterlife determines how close you are to God at any given time.

Gnosticism is a pan-religious belief system (which included followers from Mannicheanism, early christianity, Judaism, Greek mystery religions, Neoplatonism, and other pagan systems) that taught a dualistic approach that there is a good God who created everything and is uncreated, and an evil god or gods who is/are the angry god/gods depicted in religious texts. Through the experience of 'Gnosis' or an enlightenment towards secret knowledge. One is saved through proper intellectual insight towards religion rather than through faith, deeds, systems of belief, or the grace of God. Eventually everything physical, which is evil, would be destroyed and only the spiritual remain. Gnostics have and had many different views on the afterlife depending on which belief system they originally came from before adopting Gnostic views.

But the Judeo-Christian belief system is where things differ. The concept of GRACE is applied. Basically human beings, in their rebellion against God that exists in their very natures now (all human beings being descendants of the same people... which is genetically true [you can look that up in genetic research and has been brought up in different threads here even])... are anathema to God.

But God still LOVES His creation! In the Jewish (well technically Hebrew as "Jewish" just means you are a descendant of the tribe of Judah, one of the 12 tribes of the Hebrews and the last existing kingdom of the Hebrews before the diaspora) belief system sacrifices are painfully made (giving your best livestock) in blood and prayers are offered which only COVERS sin. There is nothing that can bring you to full restoration to God in the Jewish belief system! Sacrifices and prayer only bring you under a protective repentance covering. It's like saying "I acknowledge my corruption and through my corruption the corruption of this earth so here is the best offering I can give, please forgive me and I will repent of my evil ways" (and in Jewish tradition all of a sacrifice is used, the meat being given for the priesthood to eat so as not to go to waste). Even then, the afterlife for a Jew is based on how he/she simply lived under the covenant and when they broke the covenant and laws (which will occur, always, because of man's nature) how faithful they were in offering repentance and sacrifices to COVER their sin. This afterlife is either described as a slumber that is close to God relative in how you performed these things in life or as existing in a paradise that is nice... but just a holding place for departed spirits and still seperate from God. The Hebrews believe that where there is no temple for sacrifice righteous people must simply be content with prayer and trying to live a holy life to WORTH-SHIP God... although they still wouldn't be able to have a restored relationship.

Christianity teaches that God, revealing His final plan for mankind, decided to become the final sacrifice in place of all sacrifices and that the Temple would be destroyed afterwards (which happened historically at the hands of the Romans, and that is why the Muslim Dome of the Rock is now on top of the Temple Mount in Jerusalem instead of the Jewish Temple after they conquered the area). This giving of Himself, via giving the Word/the Son as a human/divine offering of blood... would then become the ultimate sacrifice completely restoring mankind to God. God sacrificed Himself/His Son so as this sacrifice would INFUSE human beings with Himself if they accepted Him as God. That's where you get the phrase "My body is a temple" because GRACE allows God's presence to dwell within you in restored relationship. God's sacrifice is the ultimate form of GRACE. Because there is NO DEEDS that can be done to restore the relationship to God... Jesus Christ BROKE THAT BARRIER. That's why it is so important to note that in the New Testament upon Jesus' death there was an earthquake that split the curtain separating the people from the Holy of Holies in the Temple. The curtain was supposedly 3 Feet Thick of cloth and only the High Priest could enter and only once a year and that was after tons of ritual and sometimes God's presence would still just utterly kill the High Priest when he entered (they tied a rope to him in case they needed to drag the body out) because God's presence is so Holy and so Pure.

http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/1723/jesusholdingman.jpghttp://img535.imageshack.us/img535/1794/1jesussaves.jpg

Jesus Christ, in fulfilling this, Himself stated that He is the only way to a restored relationship with God and divinization and by accepting Him as Savior is the only way to gain access. After Jesus' death when he resurrected and came back and showed Himself to His followers it was reported that He had descended to where all the departed spirits were and gave them the good news of what He had accomplished and that they could have restored relationship with Him too.

This is why christians will say you are worshipping Satan when you are practicing a religion outside of christianity. Since Jesus Christ Himself said He is the only way to God then where are all of these other religions coming from and why are they almost always coming from the "enlightenment" given by "angels" or other types of spirits? Christians believe that since you aren't giving WORTH-SHIP to God through entering into a restored relationship through Christ then you are giving WORTH-SHIP to a false god/gods/system that is developed by Satan and his legions of demons/fallen angels. Spiritual power and spiritual experience is thus presented to the followers of these religions by the spiritual power of Satan... who will present himself as however he sees fit. The Bible even says that Satan will appear as an angel of light so as to deceive even the elect of God and that he is the father of lies. Basically he will say or do anything to get you to not participate in the nature of God because this makes his philosophy of being separate from the one true God correct.

http://www.testimoniesofheavenandhell.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/Are-you-trying-to-Pray-out-demons-CAST-them-out-instead-300x262.jpg

This worldview meme can be grating. I know. Especially when presented as some loud-mouthed christian telling you you worship the devil or the like. Especially when all you can see is the benefits of your religion to your spiritual well-being and the connection to the spiritual and how it makes you a more complete person and how it makes you care for your fellow man more. But you have to realize it from the christian perspective if you want to know WHY they are saying that. Because to a christian... if you are not participating in the restored relationship with God then you are participating in the worthiness of Satan's philosophy... which is seperation from God because that's what he is all about, and he's willing to do anything to get humans to follow it; even if it means telling part of the truth about the spiritual world and letting you experience true spiritual experiences in order to get you to follow into it as long as you have blinders on towards the one true God.

Ajamil
12th March 12, 10:43 PM
You need to go back and edit your post, and you need to stop talking about other religions because you don't understand them at all. I almost stopped when you decided to use the word schtick in reference to Mormonism, and I did stop when you started lumping faiths together into crude and callous summaries that wouldn't be accepted on a wiki.

resolve
12th March 12, 11:09 PM
That was weird. I expected you to respond that way, but with quotes from the Vedas as well.

resolve
12th March 12, 11:10 PM
And you could also state where I was specifically wrong if that would help you discuss it.

EDIT:::

Woops I put Ba'Hai Faith in the wrong description!!! They do not believe in reincarnation but in the migration of souls through different planes in an afterlife journey to get closer to God!

Fixing it now.

NoBowie
12th March 12, 11:30 PM
The pictures are the only good part. And they ain't that good.

Resolve will start his own version of xtianity soon. He is on his way.

resolve
12th March 12, 11:39 PM
Resolve will start his own version of xtianity soon. He is on his way.

Nope. I'm all about trying to unite the many forms of existing christianity under common beliefs, common walks with God, and common good towards the rest of mankind. They can keep whatever labels and dogmatic squabbles they want, it doesn't help God's kingdom.

resolve
12th March 12, 11:49 PM
You need to go back and edit your post, and you need to stop talking about other religions because you don't understand them at all. I almost stopped when you decided to use the word schtick in reference to Mormonism, and I did stop when you started lumping faiths together into crude and callous summaries that wouldn't be accepted on a wiki.

I've read and re-read this a few times and what I'm getting from this is:


and I did stop when you lumped my faith, Hinduism, together into summaries with other faiths even though all you were addressing was the afterlife aspects, which they all share in reincarnation to certain degrees and qualities and all have their own unique approach to what reincarnation does for the soul. This was exceedingly rude to me.

Please tell me where I'm wrong :(.

Spade: The Real Snake
12th March 12, 11:57 PM
My preferred brand of Xtianity not only permits hacked celeb n00dz, but demands them


Sent by telekinesis via Cerebro

AAAAAA
13th March 12, 05:16 AM
You forgot to talk about the Silmarillion's insights.

Cullion
13th March 12, 06:33 AM
The Silmarilion is ancient norse catholicism.

Cullion
13th March 12, 06:36 AM
What about Taoism ?

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
13th March 12, 06:49 AM
Honestly, my first reaction was to tell you to fuck off resolve but I can see how that wouldnt be helpful so....

IMO you are misguided and your ignorance about Western esoteric traditions is so phenomenally massive I honestly dont know where to start.

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
13th March 12, 06:50 AM
What about Taoism ?

Athiesm dressed up as a religion therefor Satan....simple!

resolve
13th March 12, 07:09 AM
My objective with this thread was not to discuss other religions but why christians come to this particular conclusion. It wasn't my intention to list every religion but the main afterlife themes and to show why, for any other religion, it doesn't matter what you believe regarding an afterlife destination because there's almost always an out. I haven't encountered anything to the contrary in my studies.

And if I got something wrong with another religion I want you to point it out rather than going "lol ignorant!" Almost all of my information was gathered first hand from practitioners of these religions that I talk to or from converts to christianity from these religions.

Point it out or don't say anything, because right now you have nothing backing you up.

I honestly believe that you can't. But if you can I would like to know.

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
13th March 12, 07:31 AM
Although you say you dont intend to critique other religions and compare them against your Christian world view, this is exactly what you have done.

By the way Satan repented and GOD (TM pending) accepted his apology. The forces who genuinly dont want that to be known are human (mostly Christians and Muslims) not divine.

_Ku4oipyV44

resolve
13th March 12, 07:37 AM
Although you say you dont intend to critique other religions and compare them against your Christian world view, this is exactly what you have done.

Again, you misrepresent what I said. I said:


My objective with this thread was not to discuss other religions but why christians come to this particular conclusion. It wasn't my intention to list every religion but the main afterlife themes and to show why, for any other religion, it doesn't matter what you believe regarding an afterlife destination because there's almost always an out. I haven't encountered anything to the contrary in my studies.

And you didn't address this. At all. Just a "lol you think christianity is better" snide remark. That's not the point at all. The point was to show how christianity came to this conclusion and why you've possibly heard this before from christians by explaining things from the christian worldview. I think I did an ok job boiling down the very basics of the afterlife situations for MOST world religions and many of the other ones with very low populations of believers.


By the way Satan repented and GOD (TM pending) accepted his apology. The forces who genuinly dont want that to be known are human (mostly Christians and Muslims) not divine.

And where did you get this information?

AAAAAA
13th March 12, 07:49 AM
The Silmarilion is ancient norse catholicism.

Great definition indeed, it's an excellent synthesis of Western mythological themes. It's a much better read than most official religious texts too. Catholic cosmogony along with Norse stoic characters.
How long before they rape it with a movie about, say, Beren and Luthien?

resolve
13th March 12, 08:01 AM
Peter Jackson has the script to that particular story I've been told. Might just be a rumor tho.

(I liked Turin Turimbar better)

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
13th March 12, 08:33 AM
And where did you get this information?

GOD (TM pending)

Ajamil
13th March 12, 09:49 AM
I am not Hindu, reincarnation is not an "out," and I don't believe you have ever read anything written by Srila Prabhupada.

Lollius Urbicus
13th March 12, 09:55 AM
Whatever you do, don't blink!

http://www.testimoniesofheavenandhell.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/Are-you-trying-to-Pray-out-demons-CAST-them-out-instead-300x262.jpg

NoBowie
13th March 12, 10:18 AM
So resolve believes in God because bible and in bible because God.

Or, God talks to resolve and he just knows it is God. Or he knows because bible. And the bible is true because history, research, how it applies to just everything. Or he knows because of the special feeling he had when God spoke with him. Etc, etc.

But gee, you can substitute Koran for bible and a Muslim for Resolve. Or the vedic texts for the bible and Arj for Resolve. Or one of many other religious texts and followers of a certain type of religion.

Who to believe? Their stories are all the same, at a basic level.

HOW ABOUT NONE OF THEM.

Cullion
13th March 12, 01:41 PM
I have a question for you Resolve:

What made you decide to become a Christian, and when ?

Aphid Jones
13th March 12, 02:46 PM
Hey, fellas. Long time, no see. I clicked the Sociocide link on facebook with those cool high-rez photos of Roman art and architecture, and I ended up finding this wacked-out thread.

There are so many things to comment on here, I'll pick a few to get the ball rolling:



God, being your creator, wants you to come about and rediscover the relationship you were originally designed for. The physical body is just an interface, like a computer with attached hardware, for your spirit being to interact with the physical creation. The spirit being is to be in constant touch and participation with God and thus participate in His nature.

Gnostic/Manichean/Bogomil bullshit. That ain't the God of the Hebrews you're talking about, and it sure ain't their anthropology.



Christians believe that since you aren't giving WORTH-SHIP to God through entering into a restored relationship through Christ then you are giving WORTH-SHIP to a false god/gods/system that is developed by Satan and his legions of demons/fallen angels.
Ey rasta brudda, why you downstroying the overstanding of the true faid of I-and-I?


DISCLAIMER:
The purpose of man's creation was to be in perfect relationship with God and to RULE over CREATION.
Who is a man?

Look now, Resolve, let me break it down for ya. You used to identify yourself as "non-denominational", but I'd wager that now you've fallen in with the Emergent crowd. (For all of you sane people with lives wondering what the hell I'm talking about, it's just a bunch of trivial crap, so don't waste your time with it).

I know it's really cool to read a bunch of blogs and talk about divinization and relationship and all that good stuff, but it's all just LARPing. It's all just taking cool-sounding tidbits from various traditions which are then cobbled together into an incoherent mess poorly systematized into a dry series of buzzwords and phrases.

You see, the Emergent can never commit to anything. His worldview is inherently hipsterish, and he is constantly trapped in what the hipsters inaccurately call "being meta": That is, a "hell of choice", never being able to authentically enter into any reality or tradition.

I'm sure that you are a young man seeking to be "a genuine Christian". I think you seek to be a genuine man. I think you probably have a hunger for anything genuine at all, at this point. It's not too late.

So, how's your lent going?

Cullion
13th March 12, 02:59 PM
Stay Aphid. Stay.

Aphid Jones
13th March 12, 03:14 PM
Resolve is online.

What's taking him so long?

Spade: The Real Snake
13th March 12, 04:26 PM
He's rediscover porn


Sent by telekinesis via Cerebro

Robot Jesus
13th March 12, 07:01 PM
http://i.qkme.me/358j71.jpg

resolve
13th March 12, 08:42 PM
Resolve is online.

What's taking him so long?

I leave my browser on all the time.



Anyways. I'll start answering questions in order of last to first.


Gnostic/Manichean/Bogomil bullshit. That ain't the God of the Hebrews you're talking about, and it sure ain't their anthropology.

Uh you won't find the mentioning of how the mind works or the relationship of the mind to spirit to body in Gnostic works or Manichean works. At least none I've found. It's a simple deduction I made from the research I'm doing into the existence of the spirit for Moleculo/Reese and Biblical scripture on the nature of mankind. The biggest hurdle in discovering the spirit world is "what is exactly the mind/consciousness and what is the function of the brain and how do these relate to a spirit of any kind?" I've found several interesting studies on it that I'm still doing the write-up for.

If you want the Biblical standpoint for the nature of Man to Creation and to God ->

"God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.” - Genesis 1:28

"The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it." - Genesis 2:15

"So the LORD God formed from the ground all the wild animals and all the birds of the sky. He brought them to the man to see what he would call them, and the man chose a name for each one." - Genesis 2:19

So obviously Man is in charge over creation working with God.

When mankind sinned what changed?

"Cursed is the ground because of you" - Genesis 3:15-18

Later on in Genesis and further in the laws of Moses concerning how the Hebrews were to farm it was stressed not to tax the land or overuse it and not to take too much from the earth... even in a fallen state.

Or you can focus on Paul's view:

"The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God." - Romans 8:19-21

As for the man-God connection specifically:
"Do you not know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you? If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him. For God's temple is holy, and you are that temple." - 1 Corinthians 3:16-17

"Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body," - 1 Corinthians 6:19-20

And there's many many more because the man-God relationship is kind of the whole purpose of the Bible.


Again I don't see how any of this has to do with Gnosticism, Manicheanism, or Bogomilism.


Who is a man?

You, me, her, anyone who's ever lived or will live. Mankind is what I meant and that's the context I used the word in. Don't be cheeky.


Look now, Resolve, let me break it down for ya. You used to identify yourself as "non-denominational", but I'd wager that now you've fallen in with the Emergent crowd. (For all of you sane people with lives wondering what the hell I'm talking about, it's just a bunch of trivial crap, so don't waste your time with it).

No. I think the Emergent church is a load of pandering bull designed to get as many people into a form of christianity as possible.

What I'm curious about is why you feel the need to put labels on me aside from that of christian/christ-follower. I've been very open about my background.

If you don't remember I was raised in a fusion of denominations. My dad was an ordained Assemblies of God minister who re-enlisted in the Army after his first 10 years as a Reconnaissance Commando to become an Army Chaplain, which he served another 11 years in. I attended services that were a mixture of AG, Baptist, and African Methodist Episcopal attendants on the Army bases growing up. I even attended the Mass of the Catholics or the Episcopalians (American Anglicans) for fun; but it wasn't really fun. Later on when my dad got out of the Army he took up pastoring a "real" church. It was Assemblies of God but I ended up questioning quite a few practices of theirs as not being in line with scripture and my dad encouraged me to do so and he shared with me how he felt awful at the state of the christian church as a whole... how everything was separated and there was so much misunderstanding and bad blood due to the machinations of man within the churches.


What made you decide to become a Christian, and when ?

I was raised in the church but I didn't become a christian until I was a teenager. I just mostly didn't buy it and considered it more of a cultural thing (even though I didn't understand the implications of that at the time) that I just did because it was part of how I was raised.

That changed when I was listening to a sermon by my dad where he was preaching on salvation and gave an "altar call" (where they ask you to come to the front for prayer) for salvation. I felt God speaking to me and revealing things in my heart to be true so I responded and I've been a christian ever since... although I've not been a very good one at times. But that's all part of the journey.

I did come to a serious point of doubt in my late teens/early 20's where literally anything was swaying me away from christianity. I listened diligently to atheists, occultists, humanists, agnostics, buddhists, anyone really who had anything to say outside of christianity.

Then God came to me and revealed that if I was so set on wanting to know what it was like without His presence in my life He'd let me know. It was awful. It was probably the worst time of my life. I almost became an atheist/agnostic right then. But I didn't. I decided I did want God in my life and have diligently pursued Him after.

As of right now I attend an interdenominational church.

resolve
13th March 12, 08:58 PM
So resolve believes in God because bible and in bible because God.

Nice, an accusation of circular reasoning. I believed in God in faith and He showed up. There wasn't really much "reaching God by conclusion" as much as "God showed up".


Or, God talks to resolve and he just knows it is God. Or he knows because bible. And the bible is true because history, research, how it applies to just everything. Or he knows because of the special feeling he had when God spoke with him. Etc, etc.

While parts of that are true (the Bible confirming spiritual experience and seeking spiritual experience from the Bible... using the scriptures which revealed the nature of God to 'test the spirits') I don't see what you are getti...


But gee, you can substitute Koran for bible and a Muslim for Resolve. Or the vedic texts for the bible and Arj for Resolve. Or one of many other religious texts and followers of a certain type of religion.

Oh ok. I see where you are getting here. "What makes your spiritual experiences any more legitimate than any others?" That's a good valid question to ask. I would simply tell you to look at the nature of deity in question. And of course that's where atheistic arguments tend to come in because they are the ones most diligently pursuing that course (the whole "God is really evil so He's not God and therefore not real" argument flow).


Who to believe? Their stories are all the same, at a basic level.

That's not true. All religions are fundamentally different in very very striking ways. This is a western culture meme... although I haven't traced its origin, people definitely didn't always believe this. And if its so evident, then why not?


HOW ABOUT NONE OF THEM.

And that's entirely your choice.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1f/SMirC-thumbsup.svg/50px-SMirC-thumbsup.svg.png

resolve
13th March 12, 09:18 PM
I'm talking with Aj via PM and possibly another thread so... next.


What about Taoism ?

I'm pretty sure Taoism is just a philosophical offspring of the traditional Chinese religions which like many traditional Asian religions were concerned with either ancestor veneration, gods and godesses, spirits of all sorts and kinds such as ghosts and demons. There were many varying beliefs about the afterlife according to which parts of the different pagan systems you were involved in (this was mostly usurped by the spread of Buddhism from India but there's always been pockets throughout Asia that continue the old ways). Most of the religious practices involved acts of divination (channeling of spirits/gods) and exorcisms.

Taoism is just a philosophy on how to live according to "the Way" or "nature" or the "essence of being".

I will confess to being pretty unknowledgable about it other than that it later on got co-opted into a neo-confucianism which included elements of Buddhism, Confucianism, Taoism, and traditional pagan religion by the Chinese Empire.

So I can't really comment on afterlife beliefs of Taoism outside of that. Sorry.

resolve
13th March 12, 10:10 PM
Who tagged this with Rachel Held Evans? What does a writer/blogger for a christian magazine have to do with this? I had to look her up from Google and only got her site talking about Kony2012!?!?

Aphid Jones
13th March 12, 10:21 PM
Uh you won't find the mentioning of how the mind works or the relationship of the mind to spirit to body in Gnostic works or Manichean works. At least none I've found.
Then you haven't read any.



Again I don't see how any of this has to do with Gnosticism, Manicheanism, or Bogomilism.

My objection's got nothing to do with your list of evangelical-style biblical prooftexts. You said:

"God, being your creator, wants you to come about and rediscover the relationship you were originally designed for. The physical body is just an interface, like a computer with attached hardware, for your spirit being to interact with the physical creation. The spirit being is to be in constant touch and participation with God and thus participate in His nature."

That's incompatible with the God of the Hebrews. Sorry, brah. The "spirit being" interacts with God, but the "physical body" doesn't? The "physical body" is "just an interface"? What sort of anthropology is that? Have you ever heard of the Incarnation? Adam becoming Nephesh?

The old Hebrew kings would have slain any punk preaching your dualist package.



You, me, her, anyone who's ever lived or will live. Mankind is what I meant and that's the context I used the word in. Don't be cheeky.
According to authentic Christian anthropology, there were these weird earth creatures once who had the potential to someday draw near to becoming man, but that didn't work out so hot.

Which is why the D'var YHWH became one.

The Vatican bases its anthropology off of "pre-lapsarian adam", but they're full of it; there is only one Man. And you or I are only man insofar as we participate in the one Man.

"Blessed is the man" in Psalm 1 doesn't refer to "nice guys" at bible study camp.



What I'm curious about is why you feel the need to put labels on me aside from that of christian/christ-follower.
Because there is no such thing as "just a christ-follower" or "just a christian". You are a member of an "inter-denominational church" (I swear, only we Americans will create so many labels in an attempt to escape labels).

"Inter-denominational", if I'm not mistaken, is bad christian rock/trance/contemporary worship with a theology so ill-defined and a proscribed praxis so vacuous that anyone from any "traditional denomination" can feel "at home" there.

"Pastor Rick is such a cool, deep guy. He borrows from a lot of traditions. You know, he likes all that Orthodox theosis stuff, but uses some of St. Benedict's lectio divina from Catholicism, and can also get real charismatic if you work him up. Plus, he's totally into Kony 2012... and wearing tallits..."

Hey, hey, I may be wrong. But am I?

Harpy
13th March 12, 11:31 PM
I'm converting to Aphid's religion.

resolve - I like that you ask non-believers to lower their walls and read your post with an open mind. That's a mind set we could all benefit from in life. My issue with your posts about religion though is you speak as though you are an expert on many levels and truly understand enough about other religions/stances/philosophies to "boil them down" into a couple of sentences. It's why you're mocked and not taken seriously, not many are going to take the time to poke crater sized holes in some of your assumptions/ignorant attempts at presenting the 'facts' as you see them.

You are great entertainment value though as your 'type' is rarer than a woman on the Internet.

resolve
14th March 12, 12:23 AM
Then you haven't read any.

Yes I have. Can you provide proof of your claim towards that end? A quote from a book? A link?


My objection's got nothing to do with your list of evangelical-style biblical prooftexts. You said:

"God, being your creator, wants you to come about and rediscover the relationship you were originally designed for. The physical body is just an interface, like a computer with attached hardware, for your spirit being to interact with the physical creation. The spirit being is to be in constant touch and participation with God and thus participate in His nature."

That's incompatible with the God of the Hebrews. Sorry, brah. The "spirit being" interacts with God, but the "physical body" doesn't? The "physical body" is "just an interface"? What sort of anthropology? is that? Have you ever heard of the Incarnation? Adam becoming Nephesh?

You are seriously inferring things into what I said that I didn't mean to say and aren't present there. You are drawing your own conclusions. Perhaps if I explain it a bit better and you'll probably get where I got the idea from when you read my thread for Moleculo.

The human brain is a receiver of consciousness. Your body is directed by your nervous system, but can live without most of it. What is consciousness then? What is consciousness experienced by animals?

The Hebrew word for soul is NEPHESH. But it's not the typical idea of a soul that is prominent in Western Culture. Nephesh literally means "life breath". The same life breath that God instilled in the first man and the same life breath that returns to God upon death. It does not refer to an immortal spirit in the western sense. In Genesis 2:19 when Adam is naming the creatures it is literally:

"And whatever the man called each living nephesh, that was its name..."

Nephesh, the soul, is spiritual life power from God. In Greek in the New Testament the soul is psyche and the greek translation of nephesh is psyche. Psyche is also never used in the New Testament to refer to an immortal spirit in the western sense. An example of this is bit of scripture in reference to Herod trying to kill Jesus after His family escaped:

""Get up, take the Child and His mother, and go into the land of Israel; for those who sought the Child's life are dead." - Matthew 2:20

Which is actually:

"Get up, take the Child and His mother, and go into the land of Israel; for those who sought the Child's psyche are dead." - Matthew 2:20

To further illustrate this the greek New Testament uses another word entirely from psyche to distinguish the spirit which is pneuma

One of the scriptures illustrating mankind's triune being is this:
"May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." - 1 Thessalonians 5:23

"May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole pneuma, psyche and sōma be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." - 1 Thessalonians 5:23

So what is the difference between Spirit, Soul, and Body? Didn't Adam become Nephesh when he got the breath from God?!?!?

Well the soul is the spiritual life force given by God that makes you a living being. The spirit is your personality and who you are. The body is the physical container... this is why your body is referred to as a temple. Not only a temple for God but a temple for your own spirit. What do temples, in old religions, do? They provide a house for a spirit. This is where I got the parallel with a modern computer. When people think of a computer they usually think of the operating system. But the operating system resides within the hardware of the computer which is the interface with the user. Thus that is how man can be a spiritual being and a living physical being that interacts with creation. However all of that is the computer and thus all of that is the man. A computer without an operating system is just a metal and plastics shell. An operating system without a computer is unable to be interacted with. A man without a life-force and spirit is just an empty body. A life force or spirit without a physical body is unable to participate in physical creation the way God intended (as its stewards, keepers, etc) because DEAD.

Here's a further biblical explanation especially concerning being raised with a new perfected spiritual body instead of the corrupted bodies we have now when God recreates creation in perfection:

"But someone may ask, “How will the dead be raised? What kind of bodies will they have?” What a foolish question! When you put a seed into the ground, it doesn’t grow into a plant unless it dies first. And what you put in the ground is not the plant that will grow, but only a bare seed of wheat or whatever you are planting. Then God gives it the new body he wants it to have. A different plant grows from each kind of seed. Similarly there are different kinds of flesh—one kind for humans, another for animals, another for birds, and another for fish.

There are also bodies in the heavens and bodies on the earth. The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies. The sun has one kind of glory, while the moon and stars each have another kind. And even the stars differ from each other in their glory.

It is the same way with the resurrection of the dead. Our earthly bodies are planted in the ground when we die, but they will be raised to live forever. Our bodies are buried in brokenness, but they will be raised in glory. They are buried in weakness, but they will be raised in strength. They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.

The Scriptures tell us, “The first man, Adam, became a living person.” But the last Adam—that is, Christ—is a life-giving Spirit. What comes first is the natural body, then the spiritual body comes later. Adam, the first man, was made from the dust of the earth, while Christ, the second man, came from heaven. Earthly people are like the earthly man, and heavenly people are like the heavenly man. Just as we are now like the earthly man, we will someday be like the heavenly man.

What I am saying, dear brothers and sisters, is that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever." - 1 Corinthians 15:35-50


The old Hebrew kings would have slain any punk preaching your dualist package.

Sure because I'm sure you're so familiar with their personalities... zzzzzzzz.

And you have yet to explain how the body is a temple of the spirit and how the soul is the life force of a living being is a dualism that is akin to gnosticism which declared that all physical matter is evil and comes from an evil god (the demiurge) but the spirit is good and comes from the Creator true God.

When the God of the Bible created the physical world he declared it good. But it has become corrupted by its stewards and must be remade in perfection with them, which according to the Revelation of John is what He intends to do at the end.


According to authentic Christian anthropology?, there were these weird earth creatures once who had the potential to someday draw near to becoming man, but that didn't work out so hot.

Where are you getting this? Seriously.


Which is why the D'var YHWH became one.

Are you messianic Jewish? I never hear the word D'var (or Dvar), meaning word or piece, used outside of Jewish circles and is usually used in the frame of D'var Torah, or a word/piece from the torah... a teaching done in synagogue. So you're saying the Word/piece of YHWH (Jesus as He is known). Interesting phrase. Never heard it used in conjunction like that before.


The Vatican bases its anthropology off of "pre-lapsarian adam", but they're full of it; there is only one Man. And you or I are only man insofar as we participate in the one Man.

"Blessed is the man" in Psalm 1 doesn't refer to "nice guys" at bible study camp.

I don't get your point here.


Because there is no such thing as "just a christ-follower" or "just a christian".

Says who? You? Who were the people of the New Testament churches? Catholics? No that word, which means universal, didn't come to be in use until much later. The word christian wasn't even used for followers of Christ for a really long time.


You are a member of an "inter-denominational church" (I swear, only we Americans will create so many labels in an attempt to escape labels).

Because when you label something you can conveniently shove it in a mental box, say you know everything about the people who participate in it, and ignore them when they say something you don't like and go "oh well you're just part of so and so which I disagree with so it doesn't matter what you say anyways".


"Inter-denominational", if I'm not mistaken, is bad christian rock/trance/contemporary worship with a theology so ill-defined and a proscribed praxis so vacuous that anyone from any "traditional denomination" can feel "at home" there.

No. It's just a church that accepts people from any tradition. It's protestant in base and believes in spiritual gifts as were practiced in New Testament times. Sort of a sola-scriptura church that doesn't quibble over fine dogmatic details. I go there because it's a refreshing change. As for the music, it's a mixed bag with all sorts of styles which oddly work together. It's a 24/7 prayer center as well... so they have musicians come in at all hours and play praise and worship music and they all have different styles. I don't get your beef with modern christian music but whatever.


"Pastor Rick is such a cool, deep guy. He borrows from a lot of traditions. You know, he likes all that Orthodox theosis stuff, but uses some of St. Benedict's lectio divina from Catholicism, and can also get real charismatic if you work him up. Plus, he's totally into Kony 2012... and wearing tallits..."

Hey, hey, I may be wrong. But am I?

Yeah that's not how it is. They just preach what's in the Bible. Who's Pastor Rick? And what are tallits?

EDIT: Nevermind. Tallits are Jewish prayer shawls.... Seriously though I wonder where you get this stuff.

Aphid Jones
14th March 12, 01:08 AM
Yes I have. Can you provide proof of your claim towards that end? A quote from a book? A link?
Because if you were even familiar in passing with stuff like:

The Pseudo-gospel of Thomas
The Ascension of Isaiah
The Apocalypse of Paul
St. Irenaeus of Lyon's Adversus Haereses
Plotinus, who influenced all the later gnostics
St. Epiphanius of Salamis's Adversus Haereses
Euthymius Zigabenus's Dogmatic Panoply

(Hell, even throw in Practica Inquisitionis Heretice Pravitatis by the Inquisitor Bernard Gui. I've never read any of it, but it talks about Cathars)

Then you would know that the relationship between "soul" body and "spirit" was popular neoplatonic religion's fetish.






You are seriously inferring things into what I said that I didn't mean to say and aren't present there.

Oh? You said:

"God, being your creator, wants you to come about and rediscover the relationship you were originally designed for. The physical body is just an interface, like a computer with attached hardware, for your spirit being to interact with the physical creation. The spirit being is to be in constant touch and participation with God and thus participate in His nature."

Pretty clear that you have a wacky dualist anthropology. I wouldn't call it neoplatonic, because the neoplatonists actually made an effort to parse all this stuff out in a way that had a little bit of internal logic.



You are drawing your own conclusions. Perhaps if I explain it a bit better and you'll probably get where I got the idea from when you read my thread for Moleculo.

The human brain is a receiver of consciousness.
You ain't helping your position here, bub.



The Hebrew word for soul is NEPHESH.

But it's not the typical idea of a soul that is prominent in Western Culture. Nephesh literally means "life breath". The same life breath that God instilled in the first man and the same life breath that returns to God upon death. It does not refer to an immortal spirit in the western sense. In Genesis 2:19 when Adam is naming the creatures it is literally:

"And whatever the man called each living nephesh, that was its name..."

Okay, you don't seem to far off the track here. I'd like to add, however, that nephesh is used in a more relational way than the mere "identifier" you have espoused. Its cognate is used in semitic languages like Arabic. "Ana nephsi" in Arabic means "My soul" and also "I". As in "my soul doth magnify the Lord".

Let's see what else you write:



Nephesh, the soul, is spiritual life power from God...

...The spirit is your personality and who you are...

...The body is the physical container... this is why your body is referred to as a temple....

Aaaand.... back out the window into dualist land.


They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.

The Scriptures tell us, “The first man, Adam, became a living person.” But the last Adam—that is, Christ—is a life-giving Spirit. What comes first is the natural body, then the spiritual body comes later. Adam, the first man, was made from the dust of the earth, while Christ, the second man, came from heaven. Earthly people are like the earthly man, and heavenly people are like the heavenly man. Just as we are now like the earthly man, we will someday be like the heavenly man.

What I am saying, dear brothers and sisters, is that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever." - 1 Corinthians 15:35-50

Okay, your translation sucks. I don't know what translation it is, but it sucks.

Let's look at "spiritual body" vs. "natural body". Paul isn't saying "hey, your bodies are animated by your souls, now, but later on, they'll be animated by your spirits cause you said the Sinner's Prayer!"

He's saying that your nephesh body will die and be raised a body of the Spirit; the HOLY SPIRIT. Agio Pnevma, you dig? Not your "human spiritual being" that "indwells the bodily interface" or some crap like that.

If you think that there is really a way to seperate a "mind" from a "body" without resulting in the destruction of the being in question, I call you a silly, silly fellow.

I mean, Resolve, you aren't the most gnostic thing ever, you're just plain old typical American gnostic. Evangelicals and other American protestants only learn about a vague caricature of gnosticism, the "gnostic boogiman" spoken of in hushed whispers in the evangelical seminaries.

Gnosticism is more than "body = bad, spirit = good, physical = bad, spiritual = good". It's far more nuanced than that, because it was a real religion that actually existed. And in your dualism, even if you pay lip service to the "goodness of creation" and affirm some prosopic union of soul and body, is still just trussed up gnostic dualism.



The old Hebrew kings would have slain any punk preaching your dualist package.



Sure because I'm sure you're so familiar with their personalities... zzzzzzzz.
Yeah, I read about them in that bible you talk so much about.



And you have yet to explain how the body is a temple of the spirit
The Holy Spirit.



Where are you getting this? Seriously.

Christians who knew what they were talking about besides St. Augustine who lived before your inter-denominational denomination was formed.






Are you messianic Jewish? I never hear the word D'var (or Dvar), meaning word or piece, used outside of Jewish circles and is usually used in the frame of D'var Torah, or a word/piece from the torah... a teaching done in synagogue. So you're saying the Word/piece of YHWH (Jesus as He is known). Interesting phrase. Never heard it used in conjunction like that before.
D'var YHWH = Logou tou Theou, Logos of God, in the Old Testament. It doesn't mean a part (as in component) of God.

I'm not a Messianic Jew, nor do I consider "messianic judaism" to be legitimate.



Says who? You? Who were the people of the New Testament churches? Catholics? No that word, which means universal, didn't come to be in use until much later. The word christian wasn't even used for followers of Christ for a really long time.
Says the Christians who had to pwn gnostics and crypto-gnostics back in the first century.



doesn't quibble over fine dogmatic details.

Oh, believe me, that is clear.

Wait... you don't go to IHOP, do you?

And a tallit is a jewish prayer shawl thing with tassles.


EDIT: Nevermind. Tallits are Jewish prayer shawls.... Seriously though I wonder where you get this stuff.

Prepare for lollercoaster:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7BMItFWqdQ

nihilist
14th March 12, 01:20 AM
This has come up before because I tend to be more sensitive towards non-believer's concerns and well-being. I genuinely care for and want them to know God and the joy of God as I and many other followers of God have and want them with me in the afterlife.


What evidence do you have that an 'afterlife' exists?

Aphid Jones
14th March 12, 01:47 AM
King Jehu delivering educational pamphlets to new-age seekers:

http://www.barbaragriffiths.com/images/bible/griffiths_bible_15.jpg

resolve
14th March 12, 01:53 AM
No, Aphid. I'm not asking you for your opinion or your authority, I'm asking you to give me quotes from writings, facts, support from scripture, support from the gnostic texts you believe I believe in (which I don't and have read).

Anything besides "I say so so therefore it's true".

And what denomination do you believe is the correct one (I'm betting Roman Catholic)? And if you don't believe there's a denomination that contains the correct truth, why are you so interested in this?

And don't give me that "well a cognate in a semi-related language says this so obviously that was the original meaning as well".

That's not how language works.

Aphid Jones
14th March 12, 02:02 AM
No, Aphid. I'm not asking you for your opinion or your authority, I'm asking you to give me quotes from writings, facts, support from scripture, support from the gnostic texts you believe I believe in (which I don't and have read).
So you want me to prooftext to you why you're a gnostic? I don't think so. I cannot transport a familiarity of a large-scale religious milieu into your brain with a few quotes from the texts I mentioned. I'm not a spirit-being working an interface, after all.

I said what you believe in is dualistic crap and explained why. You don't like it. Do you want me to tack chapter and verse onto all the scriptures references I made in my post too?



And what denomination do you believe is the correct one (I'm betting Roman Catholic)?
Apparently you haven't been paying attention to my posts.



And don't give me that "well a cognate in a semi-related language says this so obviously that was the original meaning as well".

In this case, it's true. It's used nearly identically in Arabic and Hebrew. Just ask Christ's mother. She used it that way in Luke's Gospel.

Resolve, is this your church?

http://www.ihop.org/

resolve
14th March 12, 02:23 AM
Resolve, is this your church?

http://www.ihop.org/

That's the 24/7 prayer room I go to and occasionally go to a weekend service and I also go to a house church. I don't believe in everything they do (such as some of their Revelations beliefs or their unerring support of the nation-state of Israel) but yeah that's where I've been going lately because I love the atmosphere and the people there. I've only been going about a month and a half now.

Before that I went to an interdenominational church next to the campus I was at. Before that I was at a Methodist church. Before that I was at a non-denominational. Before that an AG church. Before that I was at an AG college I went to services at. Before that a different AG church. Before that I was at another different AG church. Before that I was attending the Army chapel "interdenominational protestant" services I described to you.

.................................................. ..............

Now that I've shared that with you I'd like you to show the same courtesy to me.

.................................................. ..............

You are saying I am "dualistic" when I am saying that humans are a singular, triune being composed of Body, Soul, and Spirit. The body is just matter composed to achieve certain functions in support of the mind. Even atheists believe that, although what the mind actually is is of debate (they will say that the mind is a product of the physical). This is why it says in scripture talking about the afterlife that people will be raised with a BODY, albeit a spiritually perfected body. The soul is the life force given by God. That's why in the Old Testament in Hebrew NEPHESH is also used for animals like I pointed out. The spirit is like your personality... all of these things make up who you are... but your body will DIE.

Where you say I am dualistic you just say "oh that's dualism and gnostic" without offering anything other than "oh that's dualism and gnostic". The gnostic beliefs I brought up were VERY IMPORTANT to gnosticism because they were saying that Jesus NEVER HAD A BODY or that he had a body but it WAS JUST A FAKE... because how could a perfect spirit from the creator god exist in evil matter that was created by the evil demiurge god!?!? How could humans sacrifice that!?! The fact that Jesus had, and has, a body and became the final sacrifice is central to christianity.

You seem to believe that humans are just an animated-by-God being that is a receptacle for God (via Holy Spirit) and don't exist spiritually on their own. That's what I'm getting from you right now and that you don't believe in any kind of separation between who a person is and their body... even though that's not really supported by scripture. Hence you get a lot of scripture talking about the nature of the corrupted flesh and not giving in to it. And then you are saying that all of mankind is really just "one man" but only participates in this "one man"s nature if they are enlightened to God... otherwise they are just creatures that never become quite man.

I'm asking you, where you got this specifically. Not just "from christians who knew what they were talking about before bla bla bla insert snark here". I want to know.

You don't even seem interested in sharing or having a discussion but in proving yourself right. Well, here's your chance. Do it.

resolve
14th March 12, 02:49 AM
That's incompatible with the God of the Hebrews. Sorry, brah. The "spirit being" interacts with God, but the "physical body" doesn't?

I never said this. The physical body does interact with God via being a temple to God. I did say that. Yes I did. Jesus coming in a physical body and raising again with a perfected, spiritual body (albeit with the wounds he suffered from the cross) is important because it justifies us to God and makes us acceptable for His presence.

Aphid Jones
14th March 12, 03:15 AM
That's the 24/7 prayer room I go to and occasionally go to a weekend service and I also go to a house church. I don't believe in everything they do (such as some of their Revelations beliefs or their unerring support of the nation-state of Israel) but yeah that's where I've been going lately because I love the atmosphere and the people there.
I wouldn't really consider IHOP a church. It's more of an ongoing Christian rock concert.



You are saying I am "dualistic" when I am saying that humans are a singular, triune being composed of Body, Soul, and Spirit.
No, I am fine with that, when properly understood in the correct context. My issue is how you parse that out.



The body is just matter composed to achieve certain functions in support of the mind.
No. Who you are is as much your body as it is your mind, Resolve. The mind and body are no more separate than an arm and a leg are. That's the Semitic understanding of the body, and the understanding that common sense gives one who objectively observes a human being. Your brain runs throughout your whole body, Resolve, along the ends of the nerves that start in your head. There's no divide other than what the errors of the greeks have put upon you.



Even atheists believe that

Athiests are influenced by ancient errors as well.



The spirit is like your personality... all of these things make up who you are...

That's a load of crap. Your body is as much who you are as your "mind" or "spirit".



The gnostic beliefs I brought up were VERY IMPORTANT to gnosticism because they were saying that Jesus NEVER HAD A BODY or that he had a body but it WAS JUST A FAKE...
SOME gnostics believed that, I.E. the Docetists. Others heretics were more crafty about their Christology. Check out Julian of Halicarnassus.



You seem to believe that humans are just an animated-by-God being that is a receptacle for God (via Holy Spirit) and don't exist spiritually on their own.
Nothing exists on its own.

No being is immortal by nature.

Human beings exist "spiritually", sure. But eating a satsuma can be a "spiritual act" if it is done to the glory of God. It doesn't require disembodied faculties for that to happen.



That's what I'm getting from you right now and that you don't believe in any kind of separation between who a person is and their body... even though that's not really supported by scripture.
Stop saying Scripture. It's "Scriptures". You sound silly.

Okay. Resolve, if you really want to use that type terminology when referring to humans...

An anthropos's hypostasis possesses a soma and a nous and a psyche.

That is, a human person possesses a body and a spirit/spiritual faculty and a soul.

The thing is, the "Scriptures" and the anthropology they reflect do not equate "person" with just one of those three things (mind, body or soul). It's the whole person. A person can either be equated with all of those things or it cannot be equated with any except poetically.



And then you are saying that all of mankind is really just "one man" but only participates in this "one man"s nature if they are enlightened to God... otherwise they are just creatures that never become quite man.
No, I am saying that Christ is the only real man, and you are only a man by becoming Christ, that is, your Person (body, soul, spirit) becomes united to the theanthropic Christ's body, soul and spirit. I am not talking about "enlightenment".

To the extent that you are not Christ you are not human. That is the absurd belief of the Christian faith. No apologies.


I'm asking you, where you got this specifically. Not just "from christians who knew what they were talking about before bla bla bla insert snark here". I want to know.



You don't even seem interested in sharing or having a discussion but in proving yourself right. Well, here's your chance. Do it.
I don't equate having a discussion with prooftexting, Resolve. But I'll give you some easier to access examples of where these notions are expressed.

Theophilus of Antioch, "Epistle to Autolycus", Book II Chapter 27
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/02042.htm

Irenaeus of Lyons, On the Detection and Overthrow of the So-called Gnosis, Book 5 Chapter 6:
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.ix.vii.vii.html

Both of these sites have really bad translations, but they'll do. That's why I'd rather recommend you books and entire works, because those actually count for something in the mind of a man.

resolve
14th March 12, 03:15 AM
EDIT::: OK. Let me read what you wrote.

Aphid Jones
14th March 12, 03:19 AM
I never said this. The physical body does interact with God via being a temple to God.
The physical body interacts with God just as directly as any other faculty.


Jesus coming in a physical body and raising again with a perfected, spiritual body
"Spiritual body" is a crap translation. It's a material body made in the image of God and animated by the Holy Spirit.



is important because it justifies us to God and makes us acceptable for His presence.
Nonsense.

"For God was so pissed off at the world, that he had his Only-begotten Son tortured to death, and since then he feels so much better."

Dude, Resolve, the Gospel is so much more awesome than God covering you with righteousness febreeze or looking at you through Jesus spectacles.

Something is actually DONE to YOU. YOU are literally altered. It ain't as if God's having to fulfill court procedure on ya.

nihilist
14th March 12, 09:08 AM
rfDJbi5gfC0

Pie of Hate
14th March 12, 09:18 AM
8327

Lollius Urbicus
14th March 12, 10:06 AM
rfDJbi5gfC0
'I believe it happened because Jesus did'

He should run for Parliament with that kind of weasel worded evasiveness.

Spade: The Real Snake
14th March 12, 01:35 PM
n00b
Brazilian Jebus starts at the knees


Sent by telekinesis via Cerebro

Vieux Normand
14th March 12, 01:56 PM
I used to think the world would have been a better place if middle-eastern religions had stayed in the louse-ridden deserts that spawned them and left the rest of us alone.

However, we would then have missed out on all sorts of light entertainment: from threads like this ^ to bearded monobrows shrieking outrage at burned books, from Life of Brian to the future-president-Santorum, from Palace-Stein-versus-Ersatz-Yisroel, from gawd'n'guns US south to charming Xian-vs-Muzz mutual bloodbaths ranging from southeast Asia to Africa.

Missing all of that would have been a sad, sad thing.

resolve
14th March 12, 09:08 PM
The physical body interacts with God just as directly as any other faculty.

I never said it didn't. The physical is birthed from the spiritual. An extension of it, if you will, that was created from it. It doesn't mean that they aren't DISTINCT.


"Spiritual body" is a crap translation. It's a material body made in the image of God and animated by the Holy Spirit.

The point is it's perfected. You can argue over "spiritual" vs "non-spiritual" all day but then there is the times in the Bible where it says "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God".


"For God was so pissed off at the world, that he had his Only-begotten Son tortured to death, and since then he feels so much better."

Nope.


Dude, Resolve, the Gospel is so much more awesome than God covering you with righteousness febreeze or looking at you through Jesus spectacles.

Something is actually DONE to YOU. YOU are literally altered. It ain't as if God's having to fulfill court procedure on ya.

What do you think the word JUSTIFIED means? And why do you think it's important? I agree with you on this instance, but I don't think you understand why.

"Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ," - Romans 5:1

"Through him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the law of Moses." - Acts 13:39

As for why I took so long to get back to you... You said something earlier in your posts that I had never heard, from any denomination, before and I'm trying to research where you might have gotten scriptural support for it. That Jesus was/is the only man and you are only a man so much as you participate and become, literally, Jesus. I can't find it anywhere in my Bible although I'm not gonna run off and dismiss you outright or anything, perhaps I missed it and I'll keep looking or perhaps it's a deduction you made from several verses on Christ. There's tons of metaphorical stuff about joining the "kingdom of God" (how is a kingdom run?), the church is the "body of Christ" (complete with you are like an eye or you are like a tendon metaphors!), the church is God's "hands and feet" to the earth, the church is also the "bride of Christ" to be joined to God in a spiritual marriage... All these metaphors but I don't see anything about becoming Christ Himself (and if you are being completely literal... becoming God that way).

And I like that you still haven't answered my question on what you feel is the denomination with the "truth" since you so handily dismissed me when you said "there can't be anyone that's 'just a christian' or 'just a follower of Christ'". So what is it?

Aphid Jones
15th March 12, 12:28 AM
The point is it's perfected. You can argue over "spiritual" vs "non-spiritual" all day but then there is the times in the Bible where it says "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God".
So do you confess a physical bodily resurrection of the dead or not?



What do you think the word JUSTIFIED means?

But why do Jesus's wounds have to stay on his hands for God to like us?




As for why I took so long to get back to you... You said something earlier in your posts that I had never heard, from any denomination
Ballin'.



I'm trying to research where you might have gotten scriptural support for it. That Jesus was/is the only man and you are only a man so much as you participate and become, literally, Jesus.
You need to stop obsessing about this "literal vs. figurative" stuff. It's a bad way to go about thinking, betraying the influence of nominalism.

But for the weak greek geek at heart: Unity is not singularity. I never stated con-fusion with Jesus.



I can't find it anywhere in my Bible although I'm not gonna run off and dismiss you outright or anything, perhaps I missed it and I'll keep looking or perhaps it's a deduction you made from several verses on Christ.

Either you believe that the Old Testament is theologically all about Jesus or you don't. This is an issue of hermeneutic, not "finding it in the Scriptures." You are applying a different hermeneutic than I am.

The TRUE man is the man from heaven.

To paraphrase St. Ignatius of Antioch on his way to martyrdom, "Do not hinder me from becoming a human being."



All these metaphors but I don't see anything about becoming Christ Himself (and if you are being completely literal... becoming God that way).

You are gods, and all sons of the most High.



And I like that you still haven't answered my question on what you feel is the denomination with the "truth" since you so handily dismissed me when you said "there can't be anyone that's 'just a christian' or 'just a follower of Christ'". So what is it?
The Orthodox Catholic Church, of course. But everyone has their opinion these days.

Aphid Jones
15th March 12, 02:02 AM
The physical is birthed from the spiritual. An extension of it, if you will, that was created from it.
Poppycock, my boy!

resolve
15th March 12, 02:25 AM
If you have an argument to make about what the scriptures are saying please use the scriptures and show how they tie into your argument and not just your own reasoning or "because such and such a church father said so" or "this church says so!"

Otherwise I'm done with this discussion because it's not helpful in any way and just shows off how divisive and ugly christianity has become over really petty things and I refuse to participate in it.

Cullion
15th March 12, 03:21 AM
Why are the scriptures a more valid source than a church father ?

Aphid Jones
15th March 12, 04:01 AM
If you have an argument to make about what the scriptures are saying please use the scriptures and show how they tie into your argument and not just your own reasoning or "because such and such a church father said so" or "this church says so!"

We have different hermeneutics, Resolve.

Simply citing passages from the book the hermeneutic is being applied to won't help that. This ain't about relying on church fathers or churches. It's common sense. Nowhere in this thread have I foisted any "church/church father infallibility" crap on you. I answered your questions about my opinions about truth and where I get some of my ideas.

You're gonna have to saddle up and engage my hermeneutic if you want to move forward in adult conversation.

You read "blessed is the man who walks not in the council of the wicked" to mean "wow, happy are those persons, whoever they may be, who sell lots of cookies at the bake sale."

I read it to mean "blessed is the man [Christ, and those who are united to him] who walks not in the council of the wicked."

Because ONLY Christ is a full, complete true man, and ONLY Christ walked not in the council of the wicked, and ONLY those who are united to him insofar as they are united to him.

Plus, it's in the context of a king of Israel, and kings of Israel are typos of Christ.

You read "Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures" as "Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the specific texts referenced in all the gospels and paul, which were the only things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures."

I don't.

You gotta engage the hermeneutic, son. This is a chance for you to truly escape Evangelicalism.

For an Evangelical by any other name, still sounds the same.

Aphid Jones
15th March 12, 04:13 AM
it's not helpful in any way and just shows off how divisive and ugly christianity has become over really petty things and I refuse to participate in it.
Resolve, sweetie,

Come on. You can handle a little divisiveness. We're homo sapiens, we've dealt with a lot worse. And, after all, the Apostle did say:

"For there must also be factions among you, so that those who are approved may become evident among you."

How's that for prooftexting? Do I get a blog sponsored by a south-american charity yet?

resolve
15th March 12, 04:34 AM
What's the point? So you can pull another stereotype out of your butt and claim that's what I believe when I don't and build a nice strawman out of it? How about you make another cutsie patronizing post where you distort what I'm saying so it fits your mold better so you can have more fun attacking what I believe?

Please. I'd rather spend my time doing things that bear fruit and focusing on God.

You want an adult conversation? Start acting like one and I'll consider it.

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
15th March 12, 04:37 AM
I would do Dr Francesca

Aphid Jones
15th March 12, 04:42 AM
How about you make another cutsie patronizing post where you distort what I'm saying so it fits your mold better
My evangelical cracks aside, I've quoted the areas of your posts that I believe are in error.



so you can have more fun attacking what I believe? Please. I'd rather spend my time doing things that bear fruit and focusing on God.

Resolve, this whole thing started because you made a gigantic, time-consuming post about how non-Christians worship Satan and how we are to understand that. In that light, don't you find the above quote a tad hypocritical?



You want an adult conversation? Start acting like one and I'll consider it.
Then stop asking me to cite chapter and verse when the dispute is a hermeneutical one.

resolve
15th March 12, 05:11 AM
Resolve, this whole thing started because you made a gigantic, time-consuming post about how non-Christians worship Satan and how we are to understand that. In that light, don't you find the above quote a tad hypocritical?

I made the post to help people understand why they might have heard that before and where it comes from from within christianity. The idea of worship (giving worth to something through your words and actions) is different from the idea of veneration... which I thought I had made clear.

According to the christian worldview if you aren't giving worth to God you are, either directly or (most likely) indirectly, giving worth to Satan's ideals and that's where the whole thing started. Mix in several millenia of misunderstanding and that's where you get christians going "You worship the Devil!!!!!!111" The whole purpose of the post was to demonstrate why this is according to the christian worldview and how it came about due to differing beliefs.

If you wanted to have a debate on hermeneutics then you should've started your own thread about it, but honestly it's not something that interests me a great deal and is one of the reasons I left a lot of christian debate forums because it just ended up becoming a huge hate-fest between different denominations... with everyone eventually telling each other they were going to hell and they didn't have teh r34l christianity; which is ultimately ungodly and I don't care to get mixed up in that at all. I'm more concerned about God's kingdom, staying true to scripture and the words of Jesus Himself and getting others to understand the love and joy of having a relationship with God. I don't care much for people's ideas on "just what it all means in the end" because as flawed human beings we're more than likely going to get something wrong that isn't explicitly stated in the scriptures, no matter how much time we devote to being accurate, and what's the point when it will all be revealed in time (ie: when you're dead or when Jesus comes) anyways?

"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." - 1 Corinthians 13:12

Pie of Hate
15th March 12, 05:29 AM
n00b
Brazilian Jebus starts at the knees

F4660T

This ain't no dojo rat jesus. This is srs biznuss jesus who saves his shit fo da str33t.

Harpy
15th March 12, 06:04 AM
resolve - I sense a somewhat hostile tone in your posts to Aphid because the message you transmitted (and I say this implying it was one-way communication) was not absorbed in the way you meant it to be. Did God speak to you to bring this message to the forum, genuine question.

I'm curious as to the varied venues you attend to worship. Is it because you're new to a place, don't feel any one of them is what you seek, don't fit in, maybe see yourself as 'better' than those other churchgoers?

btw, I am so glad I'm not religious.

nihilist
15th March 12, 06:59 AM
It's becoming increasingly obvious that Jesus loves Aphid just a tiny bit more than He loves resolve.

Spade: The Real Snake
15th March 12, 08:27 AM
F4660T

This ain't no dojo rat jesus. This is srs biznuss jesus who saves his shit fo da str33t.

[email protected]

Str33t Jebus don't leave an open guard.

Go learn t3h r34l

Pie of Hate
15th March 12, 08:42 AM
[email protected]

Str33t Jebus don't leave an open guard.

Go learn t3h r34l

LOLF4G

str33t jebus duz what he wants cuz he ain't scared ov nuffin!

Spade: The Real Snake
15th March 12, 10:33 AM
[email protected]

Str33tJ3bus is a pretty cool guy. He rolls on teh broken lava AIDS needles and doesnt afraid of anything

go back to your musky manhole GI faggotry and leave t3h r34l to men like No-Gi favala str33t J3bus

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
15th March 12, 11:06 AM
Word!

Spade: The Real Snake
15th March 12, 11:09 AM
thx Lollius

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
15th March 12, 11:11 AM
No worries lilly

NoBowie
15th March 12, 11:13 AM
Crip Krishna and Mofo Mohammed could take out Str33t Jebus, fur REAL.

Spade: The Real Snake
15th March 12, 11:18 AM
what about "Big Poppa" Briggy and Joey "the Talking Salamander" Smith?

NoBowie
15th March 12, 11:21 AM
what about "Big Poppa" Briggy and Joey "the Talking Salamander" Smith?

No. Them fuckers are small change.

Spade: The Real Snake
15th March 12, 11:29 AM
One day, Brigham Young was walking down the street and from around the corner he heard a little blonde-haired boy call out to his friends, "My daddy is Brigham Young!"

Brigham went up to the little boy, handed him a nickle, patted him on the head and said, "that's a good boy, now run along."

As he rounded the next corner he heard a little red-haired boy call out to his friends, "My daddy is Brigham Young!"

Brigham went up to the little boy, handed him a nickle, patted him on the head and said, "that's a good boy, now run along."

Across the street, in the alley heard a little black boy call out to his friends, "My daddy is Brigham Young!"

He ran up to the little boy, handed him five bucks, put his hand over his mouth and said, "here kid, get outta here and keep it quiet!"

Aphid Jones
15th March 12, 02:55 PM
I made the post to help people understand why they might have heard that before and where it comes from from within christianity. The idea of worship (giving worth to something through your words and actions) is different from the idea of veneration... which I thought I had made clear.

Yeah, loose lips sink worth-ships and all that. I read that part. Long story short, you are saying that, while inflammatory, the statement that they worship satan is technically correct.

Hell, Resolve, I never even disagreed with you on that particular point. But don't you dare start up the "oh, these discussions just increase division among 'Christians'!" When you lead with a post about how non-Christians worship freakin' satan, brah.



According to the christian worldview

As I am an adult, I'm not gonna demand prooftexts for this statement. See? That's how a conversation's supposed to work.



if you aren't giving worth to God you are, either directly or (most likely) indirectly, giving worth to Satan's ideals and that's where the whole thing started.
Resolve, I don't think the "worth"/"worthship" thing is very useful outside of a buzzphrase/buzzword use, perhaps at a youth camp for evangelicals. After all, Proskuneo in Greek, Shakhah in Hebrew (translated 'worship') was given, without objection, to ol' king David:

"And David said to all the congregation, Now bless the LORD your God. And all the congregation blessed the LORD God of their fathers, and bowed down their heads, and worshipped the LORD, and the king."

Perhaps the latria/dulia distinction that "later misunderstanding Christians" made really does have some worth, huh?

Anyway, I get what you're saying with the worthship thing. The heart of it isn't too off. But then again, my beef with your post was never centered around that anyway..



If you wanted to have a debate on hermeneutics then you should've started your own thread about it
Then you shouldn't have included your strange "scriptural" anthropology in that OP of yours, which certainly started a debate on hermeneutics.



with everyone eventually telling each other they were going to hell and they didn't have teh r34l christianity
Resolve, I'm not going to tell you you're going to hell. Relax.


I'm more concerned about God's kingdom
And posting your anthropological hypotheses on Sociocide.com.



I don't care much for people's ideas on "just what it all means in the end"

Yes you do, you made a really long blocktext post about it at the beginning of this thread. Remember?



as flawed human beings we're more than likely going to get something wrong that isn't explicitly stated in the scriptures
Or that IS "explicitly" stated.



"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." - 1 Corinthians 13:12

"Then I turned, and lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and behold a flying roll." - Zechariah 5:1

Aphid Jones
15th March 12, 03:06 PM
resolve -...I'm curious as to the varied venues you attend to worship. Is it because you're new to a place, don't feel any one of them is what you seek, don't fit in, maybe see yourself as 'better' than those other churchgoers?

"IHOP", or "the International House of Prayer" is a recording studio that plays Christian contemporary music (white R&B or older rock), or recordings of such music, streaming on the internet 24 hours a day. People are permitted to visit the studio and hold their hands up in one of the "ten styles", similar to the five animal styles in hawaiian kung fu:

http://www.jonacuff.com/stuffchristianslike/2008/07/345-hand-raising-worship-the-10-styles/

The organization is also involved in various causes, normally things that Evangelicals, Baptists and "non-denominational" (evangelicals) are interested in.

So by any sensible standard, they do not function as a Christian church in any serious capacity. I don't think it was intended to, either. And there are a lot worse things one can do with one's time in the evangelical world.

That said, I'm very interested in Resolve's house church. "post" Evangelical or "non-denominational" house churches can range from, well, guys playing guitar, to some sort of mock liturgy, to round table-esque attempts at egalitarianism.

Or it could be something totally different all together.

(studying the evo subculture is a bit of a hobby of mine).

Cullion
15th March 12, 03:15 PM
flying roll what ?

nihilist
15th March 12, 03:23 PM
IHOP (http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/007/445/pancake_bunny.jpg?1249339142)

Aphid Jones
15th March 12, 03:24 PM
"Then I turned, and lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and behold a flying roll. And he said unto me, What seest thou? And I answered, I see a flying roll; the length thereof is twenty cubits, and the breadth thereof ten cubits."

Cullion
15th March 12, 04:48 PM
That's what I thought you said. And I'm saying 'FLYING ROLL WHAT?'

Aphid Jones
15th March 12, 04:51 PM
That's what I thought you said. And I'm saying 'FLYING ROLL WHAT?'
Questions like that cause division among Christians, Cullion.

Why can't you just read the clear words of Scripture?

Lollius Urbicus
15th March 12, 05:15 PM
"IHOP", or "the International House of Prayer" is a recording studio that plays Christian contemporary music (white R&B or older rock), or recordings of such music, streaming on the internet 24 hours a day. People are permitted to visit the studio and hold their hands up in one of the "ten styles", similar to the five animal styles in hawaiian kung fu:

Good old Reverend Ruff from school would never have trucked any of that nonsense.

resolve
15th March 12, 05:17 PM
Resolve, I don't think the "worth"/"worthship" thing is very useful outside of a buzzphrase/buzzword use, perhaps at a youth camp for evangelicals. After all, Proskuneo in Greek, Shakhah in Hebrew (translated 'worship') was given, without objection, to ol' king David:

"And David said to all the congregation, Now bless the LORD your God. And all the congregation blessed the LORD God of their fathers, and bowed down their heads, and worshipped the LORD, and the king."


Exactly. They were giving worth to their king.

My point was the difference between veneration and worship. They weren't hailing David as a God but proclaiming his worthiness as king.

Just like you can proclaim the worthiness of anything.

@ Lollius he's making fun of contemporary praise and worship music. People lift their hands, they jump around, they dance if they feel like it. So what? Let them praise God. You don't see me mocking the stiffs in the Orthodox church do you? They're boring, but they're sincere and its what's in the heart that counts. But sometimes the external can just as well display the internal and if someone is that happy and joyous because God... let them praise!

Look at how people praised in the Old Testament and the New. It wasn't very boring at all. Part of the praise movements going around protestant churches has been in reaction to the old, dry, way of worshipping in silence or really old musical styles because tradition (which is only a tradition of a few churches) that was intended purposefully to make someone silent and reverent before God. It's also a reaction to hymns falling out of favor because of how boring of a musical style many of them were composed in (old pub drinking songs). Why give God boring music?


As for IHOP it's a 24/7 prayer room. The main room is rather large and has music playing. There's also multiple quiet siderooms to pray in if you don't want to be distracted. The music is usually orchestrated to help guide people in their prayers and the lyrics are often just scripture verses set to music. They also hold actual church services on Friday nights, Saturday nights, and Sunday mornings. Then they have the many many ministries which are attached to it aside from the prayer room.

The house church I go to is one of those ministries and it's more of an extended Bible study with a message in a small group than a traditional service.

Cullion
15th March 12, 05:39 PM
Good old Reverend Ruff from school would never have trucked any of that nonsense.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NX73Jhnl8vI

There are several things about this man that you might find.. sort of jump out of the screen at you. For me, the most notable was how much he seems to enjoy mimicking the voice and mannerisms of a teenage girl.

I have a strong sense that all of these things are pointing in the same direction.

Lollius Urbicus
15th March 12, 05:52 PM
There are several things about this man that you might find.. sort of jump out of the screen at you. For me, the most notable was how much he seems to enjoy mimicking the voice and mannerisms of a teenage girl.

I have a strong sense that all of these things are pointing in the same direction.
Rev Ruff would have grabbed this whipper snapper by his collar and given him a solid talking to.

He didn't even have time for the Alpha Course, that was some hippy nonsense as far as he was concerned. So that waffle would have been shown the door before it even got going.

Adouglasmhor
15th March 12, 06:10 PM
Just have to point out the Episcopalian branch of the Anglican tradition started in Scotland officially recognised in 1610 so it's not "The American Branch of the Anglican Church" or "American Anglicans". Did it not occur to you to wonder why they have a Saltire in the top corner of the St George's Cross? You really suck at researching what you say Resolve, no wonder so many people like to troll you.

Harpy
15th March 12, 06:16 PM
You really suck at researching what you say Resolve.Praise the Lord!

resolve
15th March 12, 10:01 PM
Just have to point out the Episcopalian branch of the Anglican tradition started in Scotland officially recognised in 1610 so it's not "The American Branch of the Anglican Church" or "American Anglicans". Did it not occur to you to wonder why they have a Saltire in the top corner of the St George's Cross? You really suck at researching what you say Resolve, no wonder so many people like to troll you.

They called themselves that. That's the name some of them also put in their buildings when they describe their denomination. Why do you need that information presented? Nationalistic pride? This is the kind of crap I hate the most... small petty stuff that doesn't matter towards eternal things at all.
It might be interesting to note as a footnote on the greater history of christianity but do you think any of that will matter when Jesus returns and the world is made new?

Harpy
15th March 12, 11:18 PM
I nearly spat my tea laughing. Good one resolve!

Aphid Jones
15th March 12, 11:33 PM
@ Lollius he's making fun of contemporary praise and worship music. People lift their hands, they jump around, they dance if they feel like it. So what?
Actually I was citing an evangelical poking fun at his own people's behavior.



Look at how people praised in the Old Testament and the New. It wasn't very boring at all.
There was a relationship between synagogue/temple worship and festal celebration. Outside of this context, "enthusiastic" and "somber" worship are both nonsensical.


Exactly. They were giving worth to their king.

My point was the difference between veneration and worship. They weren't hailing David as a God but proclaiming his worthiness as king.

Or they were honoring God through him, which is the interpretation that doesn't require use of a word that would not appear until 1300 years after Christ.



Part of the praise movements going around protestant churches has been in reaction to the old, dry, way of worshipping in silence or really old musical styles
The "contemporary worship" style begun in the sixties was a reaction against Catholics, Baptists, Presbyterians and Traditional Evangelicals.

Then the Contemporary Worship genre became the old, dry genre, which was replaced by more modern versions of rock.

For some today, especially in hipster meccas (Seattle, Portland, etc) that, too, has become the old, dry genre, which has been replaced by trance fusion and all sorts of weird experimental stuff.

Every short-sighted generation seeks to remove the "dry" traditions of the past, and sew the seeds of their own undoing in the process. You can try to weasle out of this truth by saying "well, everything needs renewing", but each of these generations thought they were the r34l improvement for the ages.

Any effort at "top-down" reform in Christianity backfires, as a rule.



because tradition (which is only a tradition of a few churches) that was intended purposefully to make someone silent and reverent before God.

I don't think so, Resolve. They just took what St. Paul said about order to heart. But I'm not really sure about the "silence" thing, I think you may be working off of a caricature of the Vatican's church.



It's also a reaction to hymns falling out of favor because of how boring of a musical style many of them were composed in (old pub drinking songs). Why give God boring music?
One generation tyrannizing all who came before and all who come after, as protestant cardinal C.S. Lewis would say.

But I will agree that many traditional protestant hymns are boring, crap like amazing grace. The real treasure trove is some of that backwoods Appalachian and country folk music. That stuff's off the rattler.



As for IHOP it's a 24/7 prayer room. The main room is rather large and has music playing. There's also multiple quiet siderooms to pray in if you don't want to be distracted. The music is usually orchestrated to help guide people in their prayers and the lyrics are often just scripture verses set to music. They also hold actual church services on Friday nights, Saturday nights, and Sunday mornings. Then they have the many many ministries which are attached to it aside from the prayer room.
Within the evo subculture I'd consider IHOP one of the better things out there.



The house church I go to is one of those ministries [evo speak] and it's more of an extended Bible study with a message in a small group than a traditional service.
That doesn't tell us very much.

nihilist
16th March 12, 12:05 AM
mxo6HV1r43Y

Birthright by the hand of God. I am he, chosen and called.
I have answered and understand. The gift of God has been given by his Son.

I am in Christ, the Son of God. I am in Christ, no longer condemned.
I am in Christ, the Son of God. I am in Christ, resurrected.

Who can be against me, who can compromise?
The power of He is resting, I will glorify.

Laid bare, before your eyes. It can only come this way.
The price is paid, by His blood. All I ask is who am I?

I am in Christ, the Son of God. I am in Christ, no longer condemned.
I am in Christ, the Son of God. I am in Christ, resurrected. (resurrected, resurrected)

The right to live, the right to breathe. The right to be and to believe.
God has come, the time has come to take hold of the promise, of the promise, of the promise.
The time has come to take hold of the Blood, of the Blood, of the Blood, of the Blood...

nihilist
16th March 12, 12:25 AM
This band kicks Satan's ass.

F00f7NgzS80

Adouglasmhor
16th March 12, 01:49 AM
They called themselves that. That's the name some of them also put in their buildings when they describe their denomination. Why do you need that information presented? Nationalistic pride? This is the kind of crap I hate the most... small petty stuff that doesn't matter towards eternal things at all.
It might be interesting to note as a footnote on the greater history of christianity but do you think any of that will matter when Jesus returns and the world is made new?

Why did you call them American Anglicans? Shitty national pride? Or did you just go along with their ignorance?

Cullion
16th March 12, 02:57 AM
They are American Anglicans. They're part of the Anglican Communion.

Adouglasmhor
16th March 12, 07:38 AM
They are American Anglicans. They're part of the Anglican Communion.
Scottish Episcopaleans are part of the Anglican Communion and the - they are still not Anglicans though, I was a deacon in the Scottish Episcopal church (and an AC deacon at that). (note appeal to authority there).

The SEC is a member church of the Anglican Communion: it recognises the position of the Archbishop of Canterbury as president of the Anglican Instruments of Communion, but the archbishop has no jurisdiction in Scotland.

Cullion
16th March 12, 10:54 AM
What's the difference between being an Anglican and being an episcopalian in Anglican communion ?

Robot Jesus
16th March 12, 12:35 PM
the quality of clunge.

Adouglasmhor
16th March 12, 06:04 PM
What's the difference between being an Anglican and being an episcopalian in Anglican communion ?

You don't answer to the Archbishop of Canterbury. One less layer of hierarchy.

Aphid Jones
19th March 12, 04:36 PM
Anglican bishop emeritus and honorary Evangelical pope, N.T. Wright, comments on the meaning of "Spiritual Body". This one goes out to resolve:

6jNaVgyqUD8

nihilist
19th March 12, 09:15 PM
It's really quite an impressive con job.

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
20th March 12, 05:11 AM
Now now Mole just because some semi-literate charismatic mysogonistic epileptic said sometihing in a langauge nobody speaks anymore which was translated into another ancient version of another language and then translated into another langauge that isnt spoken anymore then translated into English and then argued over by superstitious people for millenia....dosent mean its a scam!

KO'd N DOA
20th March 12, 02:49 PM
This is why christians will often say when they find God and enter into a relationship with God that they've found their life's purpose, to be in His presence and to worship Him.

No Christian has ever found God.

NoBowie
20th March 12, 02:51 PM
Xfq1Fd4ZzRg

Lebell
20th March 12, 06:49 PM
Gnosticism is a pan-religious belief system (which included followers from Mannicheanism, early christianity, Judaism, Greek mystery religions, Neoplatonism, and other pagan systems) that taught a dualistic approach that there is a good God who created everything and is uncreated, and an evil god or gods who is/are the angry god/gods depicted in religious texts. Through the experience of 'Gnosis' or an enlightenment towards secret knowledge. One is saved through proper intellectual insight towards religion rather than through faith, deeds, systems of belief, or the grace of God. Eventually everything physical, which is evil, would be destroyed and only the spiritual remain. Gnostics have and had many different views on the afterlife depending on which belief system they originally came from before adopting Gnostic views.


Not quite.
It's just as much spiritual knowledge or insight, not intellectual theories.
It is simply knowing.
Knowing comes from having insight, and that can be had from many different things.

Aphid Jones
23rd March 12, 12:50 AM
Now now Mole just because some semi-literate charismatic mysogonistic epileptic said sometihing in a langauge nobody speaks anymore which was translated into another ancient version of another language and then translated into another langauge that isnt spoken anymore then translated into English and then argued over by superstitious people for millenia....dosent mean its a scam!

Socrates?

Aphid Jones
23rd March 12, 12:52 AM
Now now Mole just because some dyslexic flunkee said sometihing in a langauge used by mass-murderers and then argued over by superstitious people for decades...dosent mean its a scam!
Einstein?

Aphid Jones
23rd March 12, 12:54 AM
No Christian has ever found God.
Your sour grapes are showing.

Aphid Jones
23rd March 12, 12:55 AM
Not quite.
It's just as much spiritual knowledge or insight, not intellectual theories.
It is simply knowing.
Knowing comes from having insight, and that can be had from many different things.

Resolve,

When Lebell understands Gnosticism better than you, you're in trouble.

nihilist
23rd March 12, 03:55 AM
Resolve,

When Lebell understands Gnosticism better than you, you're in trouble.

Jesus?

resolve
23rd March 12, 05:06 AM
Resolve,

When Lebell understands Gnosticism better than you, you're in trouble.


Well that is his religion... that's like saying "resolve, when bishop so and so knows more about Roman Catholicism than you..." I'm concerned in where things come from in religion generally... not so much what they've become.

nihilist
23rd March 12, 05:26 AM
I'm concerned in where things come from in religion generally... not so much what they've become.
This is why I'm abandoning the whole "Jesus is magic" fable, and am instead working towards starting my own fertility cult.

resolve
23rd March 12, 06:14 AM
Don't project Reese :P

Lebell
23rd March 12, 07:08 AM
Resolve,

When Lebell understands Gnosticism better than you, you're in trouble.

It's hard being the smartest poster on here.
Thanks for trying to understand.

Cullion
23rd March 12, 09:50 AM
you're not a real gnostic. real gnostics go to gnostic church.

Lebell
23rd March 12, 10:36 AM
yes and go to gnostic clubs and live in gnostic houses where they sleep in these cute little gnostic beds.
I know.

nihilist
23rd March 12, 10:39 AM
you're not a real gnostic. real gnostics blow arabs.
Oh wait... NM.

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
23rd March 12, 11:13 AM
You posted earlier that you wanted people to point out to you where you were wrong about their beliefs. In fact you got real pissy about it saying that you deserved to be taken seriously and that we owed you an honest debate about this kinda stuff.


Selfish


Why?

Cullion
23rd March 12, 01:49 PM
yes and go to gnostic clubs and live in gnostic houses where they sleep in these cute little gnostic beds.
I know.

is your girlfriend a gnostic? no? well what will the gnostic priest have to say about that, hmm?

Lebell
23rd March 12, 02:37 PM
I know what im doing.

Cullion
23rd March 12, 03:07 PM
does she?

Aphid Jones
23rd March 12, 03:07 PM
Well that is his religion...
The thing is, Resolve,


[Lebell's] not a real gnostic.

Aphid Jones
23rd March 12, 03:10 PM
is your girlfriend a gnostic? no? well what will the gnostic priest have to say about that, hmm?

Girlfriend? Lebell? Come on, if he were a real gnostic, he would have solved that problem:

"Simon Peter said to them, 'Make Mary leave us, for females don't deserve life.' Jesus said, 'Look, I will guide her to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every female who makes herself male will enter the kingdom of Heaven."

-Gnostic pseudo-gospel of Thomas

NoBowie
23rd March 12, 03:14 PM
I know what im doing.

But does Jesus approve?

Cullion
23rd March 12, 03:24 PM
Girlfriend? Lebell? Come on, if he were a real gnostic, he would have solved that problem:

"Simon Peter said to them, 'Make Mary leave us, for females don't deserve life.' Jesus said, 'Look, I will guide her to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every female who makes herself male will enter the kingdom of Heaven."

-Gnostic pseudo-gospel of Thomas

I'm fairly sure that Lebell gnows something about that which you don't.

Lebell
23rd March 12, 05:09 PM
Girlfriend? Lebell? Come on, if he were a real gnostic, he would have solved that problem:

"Simon Peter said to them, 'Make Mary leave us, for females don't deserve life.' Jesus said, 'Look, I will guide her to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every female who makes herself male will enter the kingdom of Heaven."

-Gnostic pseudo-gospel of Thomas

^^^ LOL!
I remember wtfpwning you on this subject some year ago, I take it you're still sauer?

Lebell
23rd March 12, 05:49 PM
What exactly is male, female, life hinting at?

A lot of you are like medieval peasants: pointing and laughing at things you do not immediately understand.

If you discard an entire set of beliefs or a way of thinking because of a part that seems ludicrous to you, then you're in for a bumpy ride during your life.
Some trick themselves by thinking they are actually really intelligent and sceptical independant thinkers, truth is, the only thing you do is point and laugh about something you do not fully understand.

There's an example where John the baptist went into the desert and 'ate locusts and honey'
BUAHAHAHA what a bunch of fairytales right?
oops:
''
In English the word “locust” properly denotes both an insect and certain kinds of trees. However in Greek literature Akris always denotes the insect. This has led virtually all commentators to teach that John ate the insects, which were permitted by according to the law (Lev 11:22).



However, from very early Christian times there is a tradition, persistent, widespread and emphatic that in Matthew & Luke akris meant something other than the insect. Of all the suggestions the Carob pod is the most likely because of linguistic & anthropological considerations as will be shown.



The Carob tree (Ceratonia seliquis) is cultivated extensively in the Mediterranean Sea, and is common in Palestine from Hebron northward. It fruit which matures in late spring is a flat pod shaped somewhat like a Lima bean, and from six to ten inches in length. The pods are eaten raw, cooked or ground into flour. They can be dried and keep indefinitely. Though not particularly palatable the carob has substantial nutritive value, and has long been a staple diet for the poorer classes in the Near East. The Tosephta (Ma’aseroth 2. 19 [84]) lists carob pods as a kind of food and the Mishnah (Ma’aseroth 1. 3, Soncino ed. of the Talmud, p256) specifies that, as a food, they are to be tithed. ''

Also read about a guy named Luxenberg who for example brings tons of translation mistakes in the quran to light and makes it painfully clear it's copied from parts of the NT.

This is the problem with armchair experts such as Aphid, they're not really interested in the truth, nor do they have in depth knowledge, they just point and laugh and feel good about themselves.

Me?
Every now and then I waste some time with a more constructive reply in the hopes others who read this actually learn something.
I learned a long time ago it's a waste of time to argue or discuss things with people who know everything already.

NoBowie
23rd March 12, 06:01 PM
Blah Blah Blah

Little factoids and semantics related anecdotes don't prove that god exists or that your version of him is the real one.

You still believe in a sky wizard and a religion that has nonsensical texts, rules and traditions.

I will point and laugh, and be entirely justified logically to do so.


AHAHAHA!

HAHAAH!

ROFL!

Cullion
23rd March 12, 06:05 PM
Lebell, did you just copy and paste that text from the web.me blog of the guy who painted this?

http://web.me.com/martinsimpson1/Martins_Illustrations/Illustrations.html#7

Well?

Lebell
23rd March 12, 06:06 PM
Little factoids and semantics related anecdotes don't prove that god exists or that your version of him is the real one.

That wasnt the point I was adressing.
Read again.


You still believe in a sky wizard and a religion that has nonsensical texts, rules and traditions.

I will point and laugh, and be entirely justified logically to do so.


AHAHAHA!

HAHAAH!

ROFL!

Coming from a former mormon that is pretty hilarious.
It would be better for people like you to just be silent in shame instead of trying to overscream your emberrasment.

NoBowie
23rd March 12, 06:09 PM
That wasnt the point I was adressing.
Read again.

LOL. You don't even know what you are trying to say.


Coming from a former mormon that is pretty hilarious.
It would be better for people like you to just be silent in shame instead of trying to overscream your emberrasment.

Hah. When you are smart enough to be a former believer of the silly things you are spouting then maybe we can speak on the same level, halfwit.

Lebell
23rd March 12, 06:09 PM
Lebell, did you just copy and paste that text from the web.me blog of the guy who painted this?

http://web.me.com/martinsimpson1/Martins_Illustrations/Illustrations.html#7

Well?

I dunno if its the same guy, but I did a quick run for piece of text about the translation, and took it from the first searchresult.

Why?

I have no idea who this person is, but even when a moron says 1 and 1 makes 2, its not untrue.

Besides, there's many more but then I gotta translate em into english and its midnight over here and im feeling lazy.

Cullion
23rd March 12, 06:14 PM
i just want to know what your sources are before i throw this book away

http://crosebrough.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/12/31/loseweight.jpg

Lebell
23rd March 12, 06:15 PM
here's some more interesting reads:http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_bibl.htm

example:' Luke 3:22: This passage describes Jesus' baptism by John the Baptist. According to Justin Martyr, the original version of this verse has God speaking the words: "You are my son, today have I begotten thee." Justin Martyr, Clement of Alexandria, Augustine, and other ancient Christian authorities also quoted it this way. 1 The implication is that Jesus was first recognized by God as his son at the time of baptism. But a forger* altered the words to read: "You are my son, whom I love." The altered passage conformed more to the evolving Christian belief that Jesus was the son of God at his birth, (as described in Luke and Matthew) or before the beginning of creation (as in John), and not at his baptism.''

Thing is what you seem to forget: I used to attend forums and discussions between theologians, linguists and what not.
Just that the text about the translation may be on some weird guy's page doesnt make the quote false.

Lebell
23rd March 12, 06:17 PM
i just want to know what your sources are before i throw this book away

http://crosebrough.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/12/31/loseweight.jpg

he is not the source, he most likely got the text from a original.
keep the book, it seems like an interesting read.
personally I use 'more abs like jesus in just 3 days, learn his secret to hanging on a cross for hours on end!'

Cullion
23rd March 12, 06:22 PM
no, of course not. but the same page you just linked claims that biblical condemnation of homosexuality is the result of modern forgery, rather than totally predictable bronze-age hillbillyism by desert tribesmen, so you've got to understand that it's not necessarily going to be taken seriously as a source on the true and secret meaning of the gnu testament.

Lebell
23rd March 12, 06:30 PM
no, of course not. but the same page you just linked claims that biblical condemnation of homosexuality is the result of modern forgery, rather than totally predictable bronze-age hillbillyism by desert tribesmen, so you've got to understand that it's not necessarily going to be taken seriously as a source on the true and secret meaning of the gnu testament.

youre trolling is as weak as your understanding.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceratonia_siliqua aka the SAINT JOHN'S BREAD!
zomg!

whoops: books.google.nl/books?id=uzTcB8yMnrcC&pg=PA17http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceratonia_siliqua3&lpg=PA173&dq=greek++translation+locust+john+baptist&source=bl&ots=7qCDeIbYrR&sig=KYhzOTmXcXjH6Mo668MocX5-_io&hl=nl&sa=X&ei=BgZtT_vyONCf8gOhu-G_DQ&ved=0CDsQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=greek translation locust john baptist&f=false


but the same page you just linked claims that biblical condemnation of homosexuality is the result of modern forgery,

MODERN forgery?
Thats a bit wild.
Plenty of 'forgeries' in the NT though, but made centuries ago.

One could argue that the 'recently' discovered nag hammadi scrolls are the purer versions.

Lebell
23rd March 12, 06:33 PM
If a conspiracynut uses a list of facts, one saying: on sept 11 the twin towers were hit by an attack in which two airliners were used, why should I not copy paste the text?
Is the source incorrect?
Do I automatically subscribe to his viewpoints?

Gimme some better badgering, this is boring.

Spade: The Real Snake
23rd March 12, 06:42 PM
8361

Cullion
23rd March 12, 06:43 PM
youre trolling is as weak as your understanding.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceratonia_siliqua aka the SAINT JOHN'S BREAD!
zomg!

Wait, what do you think you've demonstrated? 'I have totally found evidence that the word for carob-pod was mistranslated as locust therefore I haz teh secret meaning of the bible. What ?

I'm trolling?

uh-huh.

Cullion
23rd March 12, 06:47 PM
snake, God bless you my child.

Spade: The Real Snake
23rd March 12, 06:55 PM
When there was only one set of footprints in the sand, I knew you were carrying me with your pumped biceps.

Lebell
23rd March 12, 07:34 PM
Cullion used to be a good troll.
Okay maybe not good but at least slightly amusing.
What happened?

nihilist
23rd March 12, 08:19 PM
He doesn't get paid enough to put any real effort in.

Cullion
24th March 12, 04:41 PM
I am not a troll.

Aphid Jones
24th March 12, 10:27 PM
Luke 3:22: This passage describes Jesus' baptism by John the Baptist. According to Justin Martyr, the original version of this verse has God speaking the words: "You are my son, today have I begotten thee." Justin Martyr, Clement of Alexandria, Augustine, and other ancient Christian authorities also quoted it this way. 1 The implication is that Jesus was first recognized by God as his son at the time of baptism. But a forger* altered the words to read: "You are my son, whom I love." The altered passage conformed more to the evolving Christian belief that Jesus was the son of God at his birth, (as described in Luke and Matthew) or before the beginning of creation (as in John), and not at his baptism.''

Lebell, this is 101 stuff. Like, right there in the Jehovah's Witnesses sack of shitty apologetic 'shockers' next to "Theos doesn't always mean God in John 1".

Psalm 2, Davidic Kingship, Typology, Ebionites, Hebrew Matthew, etc.



Thing is what you seem to forget: I used to attend forums and discussions between theologians, linguists and what not.

The David Icke forums miss you.



A lot of you are like medieval peasants: pointing and laughing at things you do not immediately understand.
Your gender is not the topic of discussion here.

nihilist
24th March 12, 11:55 PM
Gender, species, ah, close enough.

Ajamil
25th March 12, 12:47 AM
Huh. Well I had things to say on previous posts, but I see the thread has been thoroughly Lebelled.

Edit: Ok, just one. I have a hard time reading things like this

Because when you label something you can conveniently shove it in a mental box, say you know everything about the people who participate in it, and ignore them when they say something you don't like and go "oh well you're just part of so and so which I disagree with so it doesn't matter what you say anyways".
when not an hour before I was reading things like this

You commune with demons.

Aphid Jones
25th March 12, 08:51 PM
Huh. Well I had things to say on previous posts, but I see the thread has been thoroughly Lebelled.

Edit: Ok, just one. I have a hard time reading things like this

when not an hour before I was reading things like this
[/FONT][/COLOR]

You got it.

Resolve, nobody here is going to think you aren't grace-filled or whatever if you place things into categories. You're dispensationally human. We all do it.

Lebell
26th March 12, 03:39 AM
Lebell, this is 101 stuff. Like, right there in the Jehovah's Witnesses sack of shitty apologetic 'shockers' next to "Theos doesn't always mean God in John 1".

Psalm 2, Davidic Kingship, Typology, Ebionites, Hebrew Matthew, etc.


The David Icke forums miss you.


Your gender is not the topic of discussion here.

^^^ translation: I should actually stfu, but my ego doesnt allow me to just walk away, so im gonna sound like I have some idea of what im talking about combined with some lame insults.

Lebell
26th March 12, 03:41 AM
when not an hour before I was reading things like this


You commune with demons.ons.

[/QUOTE]

why would you commune with demons?
besides, if there was one dude who communed with Demons it was J.C Himself.
From the temptation in the desert to the demons who possesed people up in the galillee.

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
26th March 12, 05:13 AM
You posted earlier that you wanted people to point out to you where you were wrong about their beliefs. In fact you got real pissy about it saying that you deserved to be taken seriously and that we owed you an honest debate about this kinda stuff.


Selfish


Why?

resolve
26th March 12, 05:36 AM
Added you to ignore. Sorry bro :/. If you can't even bother to check your own thread it's not my fault. Right now all you've been doing is spamming the boards relentlessly like a kid throwing a tantrum.

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
26th March 12, 05:40 AM
What a wanker!

Pie of Hate
26th March 12, 06:47 AM
That debate worked out well then. Whats next?

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
26th March 12, 07:18 AM
I have sent him an apology, so hopefully he will come back to it and explain himself.

Pie of Hate
26th March 12, 08:01 AM
He wont come back unless you truely repent and except a jewish zombie as your true lord.

Lebell
26th March 12, 08:48 AM
as he should.

but ignoring people is just weak.

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
26th March 12, 10:06 AM
Yeah I fink so. You'd think with a name like 'resolve' he would have shown some.

Lebell
26th March 12, 10:31 AM
this irony has not been lost on me.

nihilist
26th March 12, 11:02 AM
Resolve is ignoring some people while ministering to others.

He is following the example of Jebus.

Spade: The Real Snake
26th March 12, 11:13 AM
I have sent him an apology

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
26th March 12, 11:15 AM
I seem to have hurt his feelings, I dont expect you to understand.

Lollius Urbicus
26th March 12, 11:19 AM
I seem to have hurt his feelings, I dont expect you to understand.
Really he should have turned the other cheek.

nihilist
26th March 12, 11:21 AM
Only true Christians do that.

Lollius Urbicus
26th March 12, 11:23 AM
Perhaps he can at least forgive?

nihilist
26th March 12, 11:39 AM
Right now, resolve is in a huddle with the trinity planning strategy.
After they 'finish', resolve will return to us and not seem so grumpy.

Lollius Urbicus
26th March 12, 11:48 AM
Right now, resolve is in a huddle with the trinity planning strategy.
After they 'finish', resolve will return to us and not seem so grumpy.
I'm sure he will be overwhelmed with a warm, comforting sensation once the Holy Spirit comes upon him.

nihilist
26th March 12, 11:52 AM
I think technically the spirit comes INTO him.

Lollius Urbicus
26th March 12, 11:57 AM
Comes upon the 'natural body'. Comes into the 'spiritual body'.

Harpy
26th March 12, 03:54 PM
Why would you send an apology to resolve Max? Dumb move and his twisted thought process
will see it as a willingness on your part to accept the flesh of Jesus in your mouth.

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
26th March 12, 04:21 PM
I would like him to explain himself better. So far it would seem that a chord has been struck and I would like to examine it further.

If that means me apologising to him then I'm OK with that.

Harpy
26th March 12, 04:26 PM
Nice sentiment but you're assuming he's sane. Good luck mate.

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
26th March 12, 04:36 PM
No I think he's nuts

Feryk
26th March 12, 04:36 PM
You are assuming Max is sane, Lilz.

I'm on the fence about that one.

NoBowie
26th March 12, 04:37 PM
Nice sentiment but you're assuming he's sane. Good luck mate.

I treat Resolve like an Alzheimer's patient, talking to him as if he may have some flashes of sanity. They just haven't appeared yet.

Spade: The Real Snake
26th March 12, 04:49 PM
If that means me apologising to him then I'm OK with that.
Did he threaten to sock you in the eye, Jack LaMotta style?

Harpy
26th March 12, 05:36 PM
I treat Resolve like an Alzheimer's patient, talking to him as if he may have some flashes of sanity. They just haven't appeared yet.It's just like The Notebook (stupid movie)!

resolve
26th March 12, 08:08 PM
Wow who knew ignoring someone until they stopped spamming would turn into such a butthurt dramafest?

Oh, internet.

Anyways yeah I'll be glad to continue our conversation in a few days Max. Right now I owe Mole a thread. I might as well get it on the site before I move. I don't even know if I'll have internet yet, everything is up in the air.

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
27th March 12, 03:37 AM
I'm not hurt resolve

Craigypooh
27th March 12, 05:57 AM
His demons are really pissed off though.

resolve
27th March 12, 07:18 AM
Yeah I fink so. You'd think with a name like 'resolve' he would have shown some.

Resolve doesn't mean you don't make mistakes.

This is resolve:

http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/547290_10150789755561515_758056514_11589966_191532 8188_n.jpg

And sometimes this:

http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/530363_10150789755681515_758056514_11589968_115543 789_n.jpg



Really he should have turned the other cheek.

http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/533717_10150603166346148_688536147_9389923_4332661 62_n.jpg


Oh image macro. The working man's go-to humor :).

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
27th March 12, 07:28 AM
If you are going to talk to me then I would prefer it if you talked about this....



I was regarding the religious ideas of western esotericism as being selfish not the conversation. Sorry if I wasn't clear on that :/. If you want to carry on from there by all means feel free.

Yes what do you mean by this?

Do you mean that western Esoteric systems create selfish people?

You obviously have enough time to dig up Jesus funnies maybe you could dedicate some of that time in explaining what you meant?

Spade: The Real Snake
27th March 12, 07:46 AM
You obviously have enough time to dig up Jesus funnies
That's his desktop wallpaper

resolve
27th March 12, 07:49 AM
I don't dig anything up. Those are posted to my facebook wall pritty much e'reday. Anyways.

As I was trying to speak about earlier... I don't think it creates selfish people. I think the idea of pursuing secret knowledge and using it for your own ends, many times in disregard for the consequences of others, is. Such as many of the different systems of magick stating that the way to summon your angel/spirit/whathaveyou and thus the gaining of magickal knowledge is intensely personal and cannot be shared or the idea that sharing things like that lessens or weakens yourself or your connections with the magical. There was one guy I remember sharing on the forums a statue he was making of the god Set he was trying to summon. He then quickly erased the picture from the net and said that while it was fun to share just a little bit of his rituals that he didn't want to ruin anything and that what he was trying to accomplish could be seen as negative by some people anyways.

Obviously there are people that don't agree with that exclusivity of knowledge as such a huge point of "doctrine", such as Mr. Grant Morrison that Cullion posted a vid of earlier. But even then look at that example where he's talking about using sigils to alter reality to his own liking... such as attracting all of those "ideal" or "share in the idea of my ideal" women to himself. What about those women? Don't they have any say in how they are being used? Or is it just all for Mr. Morrison now that he has the 'keys to the kingdom' so to speak? I think that's one of the reasons a lot of esoteric belief systems are secluded... not just to weed out the true seekers from the chaff but that if everyone was doing it conflicts would arise. Of course there are explanations readily at hand for that too. Perhaps those spells are just moving people into the realm of being that they needed to be anyways which just lines up with his desires or perhaps they are just being straight up made just for him since the beginning and his sigil is just aligning things for him. Or perhaps he thinks the combination of his comic and sigil are actually altering reality and matter and creating sentient beings just for his pleasure. He didn't really elaborate on it. But still... I really doubt he has those girls' best interest at heart if it isn't serving his. At least he doesn't sound like it at all.

Even benevolent systems such as wicca that preach their rede of "if it harm none" often perform magickal rites with a selfish air... the most common being attempts at the manipulation of love. To who's benefit? That's often the biggest attraction to that system of belief for the young women (and the older women they become) that comprise the majority of its followers. That and the ideas of being at a closer level to creation and female (the womb ideology in the locus of goddess worship).

I don't think that these things necessarily work in the way that they are being sold to the seeker, obviously, but we've been over that. My contention is also in how they are being sold... just like I have problems with people who view Jesus as a cosmic Santa Claus or the prosperity doctrine thumpers.

If magick is so powerful in its revelations and in its ability to muck with the universe... why aren't better things being done with it if it is so?

resolve
27th March 12, 08:10 AM
I treat Resolve like an Alzheimer's patient, talking to him as if he may have some flashes of sanity. They just haven't appeared yet.

I think of you as someone who has a case of extreme verbal and visual diarrhea, but still needs to be loved anyways. You could probably use a hug.

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
27th March 12, 08:52 AM
As you are obviously too busy (talking about Satan) to reply in full to an earlier post in full, I would like to re-introduce a question asked many pages back...


Such as many of the different systems of magick stating that the way to summon your angel/spirit/whathaveyou and thus the gaining of magickal knowledge is intensely personal and cannot be shared or the idea that sharing things like that lessens or weakens yourself or your connections with the magical.

Would you say you have a personal relationship with your God (TM resolve) that could be understood fully by anybody else?

EDIT: for some reason I deleted the majority of this post, it was an accident (or the work of Jesus take your pick) but I dont think resolve had any intention of answerinf the points anyway.

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
27th March 12, 09:51 AM
There is one more point I would like to make about this selfishness thing. Let's do a comparartive case study...yeahhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!

So there is this guy, lets call him Dr Awesome for the sake of the study. Who spent the first 10-15 years of his adult life working for less than minimum wage in an inner city acute psychiatic admissions ward. At the time he discovered many things about the nature of his consciouness by using Western esoteric techiques (amoungst other things).

After 10 years he came to the realisation that he could better help humanity by getting a proper education and full-filling his potential as an applied mathematician of sorts. So armed with his newly expanded consciousness he went about his study and work for the next 11 years.

He now works in cancer research finding ways to allieviate the pain and suffering of the terminally ill.

Now lets take a look at the next guy, lets call him Mr Resolute. He is a Christian and has spent his education on becomming an artist.

One of these people has been accused of persuing a selfish agenda, can you tell which?

Ajamil
27th March 12, 10:07 AM
That's a rather unbalanced case study, and because of that I will judge it in the unintended way and say Dr. Awesome seems to be addicted to subtle/psychic sex and wants power/fame/distinction for his work.

I agree with a lot of what Resolve said in his selfish clarification, buy I think it can apply to a lot of processes both mundane and magickal (is that how we're spelling it?). Reread what resolve wrote, but substitute politics for western esoteric practices.

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
27th March 12, 10:13 AM
That's a rather unbalanced case study, and because of that I will judge it in the unintended way and say Dr. Awesome seems to be addicted to subtle/psychic sex and wants power/fame/distinction for his work.

Not really just enough to get by and the opportunity to carry on working in the field. I think you may be projecting your own latent desires on Dr. Awesome.


I agree with a lot of what Resolve said in his selfish clarification, buy I think it can apply to a lot of processes both mundane and magickal (is that how we're spelling it?). Reread what resolve wrote, but substitute politics for western esoteric practices.

Or substitute religious practices. What he said was more of a general assualt on society and blaiming it on something he doesnt fully understand, much like you have done with your superficial analysis of Dr. Awesome's drives and desires.

Lebell
27th March 12, 10:14 AM
That dr Awesome sounds like a twat to me.
We are supposed to suffer in this life so we may be proven worthy and taken into the kingdom of heaven.

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
27th March 12, 10:15 AM
No that's just you.

Lebell
27th March 12, 10:18 AM
To suffer is to get closer to Jesus.
When someone suffers it's not just about the pain, it's also about being forsaken by other people.

People tend to avoid people who suffer.
There's also the types who care for sick people cos it makes em feel good, these people are even more annoying.

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
27th March 12, 10:19 AM
If you get off on suffering that's OK with me.

Ajamil
27th March 12, 10:32 AM
No that's just you.We're supposed to make Lebell suffer so we can be proven worthy and enter the Kingdom of Heaven?

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
27th March 12, 10:46 AM
Sounds great!

Lebell
27th March 12, 11:26 AM
We must all suffer, and we shall.
It is God's will.

Believing in God does not get you an outta jail card.

There shall be no bargaining, face your destiny like men, not scared little children.

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
27th March 12, 11:32 AM
I'm not scared.

If you want other people to suffer because you get some masocistic thing from suffering yourself, I would suggest a good psychiatrist or a prostitute.

But I suppose if you're into that sublimation thing then yeah for you its God's (TM lebell) willy.

Lebell
27th March 12, 12:20 PM
I'm not scared.

If you want other people to suffer because you get some masocistic thing from suffering yourself, I would suggest a good psychiatrist or a prostitute.

But I suppose if you're into that sublimation thing then yeah for you its God's (TM lebell) willy.

hahaha you really have no fucking idea what you are babbeling about do you?
I read a 10 year old scared boy: ' im not scared!'
and end the retarded post with a roflcopter willy joke...


It's not about suffering as some form of penalty, suffering is inherent to this form of existance.
It is in the nature of all things during our life.

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
27th March 12, 12:41 PM
Fucking hell 45 minutes to come up with that load of recycled Buddist crap.

If it makes you feel better that you're being punished for existing go ahead suffer.

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
27th March 12, 12:41 PM
preferably in silence

NoBowie
27th March 12, 12:48 PM
Hmm.

Max has a PhD

Lebell has STDs.

Hmm...

Ajamil
27th March 12, 12:55 PM
Sukadeva Goswami disagrees.


SB 10.14.58 (http://vedabase.net/sb/10/14/58/en): For those who have accepted the boat of the lotus feet of the Lord, who is the shelter of the cosmic manifestation and is famous as Murāri (http://vedabase.net/m/murari), the enemy of the Mura (http://vedabase.net/m/mura) demon, the ocean of the material world is like the water contained in a calf's hoof-print. Their goal is paraḿ (http://vedabase.net/p/param)padam (http://vedabase.net/p/padam), Vaikuṇṭha (http://vedabase.net/v/vaikuntha), the place where there are no material miseries, not the place where there is danger at every step.

NoBowie
27th March 12, 01:00 PM
Sukadeva Goswami disagrees.



Accepting the boat of the lotus feet of the Lord is bullshit. Someone with lotus feet is not one to be worshiped. Also, any boat he designed or had commissioned for him is probably not seaworthy.

Pie of Hate
27th March 12, 01:14 PM
Must be a nightmare trying to get shoes to fit lotus feet.


Sent from my Fembot4000 using Tapatalk

Ajamil
27th March 12, 01:19 PM
You people just wish your feet would get compared to flowers. You probably have tuna feet.

NoBowie
27th March 12, 01:38 PM
You people just wish your feet would get compared to flowers. You probably have tuna feet.

LOL! YOUR GOD HAS PANSY FEET! WHAT A WIMP! WHAT A SISSY!

ARJ WORSHIPS A SISSY!

AHAHAHAHA!

Pie of Hate
27th March 12, 02:36 PM
You people just wish your feet would get compared to flowers. You probably have tuna feet.

Crom laughs at your god


Sent from my Fembot4000 using Tapatalk

Ajamil
27th March 12, 02:38 PM
LOL! YOUR GOD HAS PANSY FEET! WHAT A WIMP! WHAT A SISSY!

ARJ WORSHIPS A SISSY!

AHAHAHAHA!You should learn to read better.

Lord Kṛṣṇa (http://vedabase.net/k/krsna)'s lotus feet are described as pallava (http://vedabase.net/p/pallava), flower buds, because they are most tender and of a pinkish hue. According to Śrīla (http://vedabase.net/s/srila)Sanātana (http://vedabase.net/s/sanatana) Gosvāmī, the word pallava (http://vedabase.net/p/pallava) also indicates that Lord Kṛṣṇa (http://vedabase.net/k/krsna)'s lotus feet are just like desire trees, which can fulfill all the desires of the Lord's pure devotees."Lotus feet" is a common mini praise of great souls in the Vedas. Lots of layers to it. One of them is that Krishna has people that carry out his desires, thus he never has to work hard leaving the soles of his feet soft and pink. He is more pimp than you can imagine. Omnipimpin. He is the All-Pimp.

Spade: The Real Snake
27th March 12, 02:42 PM
I say Fuck You, Jobu. I do it myself.

NoBowie
27th March 12, 02:43 PM
You should learn to read better.
"Lotus feet" is a common mini praise of great souls in the Vedas. Lots of layers to it. One of them is that Krishna has people that carry out his desires, thus he never has to work hard leaving the soles of his feet soft and pink. He is more pimp than you can imagine. Omnipimpin. He is the All-Pimp.[/COLOR]

A: He doesn't exist. He is a figment of his followers imagination

B: Pimping Gods be Gods of war and action, Gods of doing. Not fat lazy candy asses.

C. If your desires are fulfilled by your Gods feet, you are just a foot fetishist.

Feryk
27th March 12, 02:46 PM
"Action" is the key word, NoB. Depends on how you define it.

Harpy
27th March 12, 03:51 PM
NoB and I choose NOT to suffer.

I wouldn't mind bazooka/jet powered feet.

Max - Dr Awesome sounds very cool. Also, old.

Lebell
27th March 12, 04:03 PM
NoB and I choose NOT to suffer.


Why did you get married then?

NoBowie
27th March 12, 04:48 PM
Why did you get married then?

I am afraid this is a good point.

I don't like to admit this, but I kind of like drama. I like my job because there are lots of fires to put out. When things are going smoothly, I get bored.

Marriage can add stability, but it also adds more drama to life.

Lebell
27th March 12, 05:06 PM
marriage is a bit like a 'I OWN YOU NOW BITCH, HAHAHAHAHAHAH thing to me.
on the upside, im so poor I can only win by marrying some chick so its a bittersweet defeat by the time I marry.

I like it better when things arent a done deal, and from what I think im seeing with loads of married couples is that they take eachother for granted.

It would be wiser to keep a certain healthy level of friction and excitement.
No idea how to do that though.

NoBowie
27th March 12, 05:19 PM
It would be wiser to keep a certain healthy level of friction and excitement.
No idea how to do that though.

Open relationships. It's the only way.

My wife gave me carte blanche to bang professionals during my travels but won't allow anything else.

Lebell
27th March 12, 05:25 PM
Open relationships. It's the only way.



Nah open relationships dont work for everyone.
If a woman would allow me this I'd actually move on cos she doesnt care one way or the other.
This is why I actually stick to banging girls instead of relationships, im really picky when it comes to relationships.

To me, an open relationship would mean that your wife or mother of your kids is nothing more than your roomie.

Harpy
27th March 12, 05:34 PM
That's kinda romantic Lebell.

Ajamil
27th March 12, 05:36 PM
A: He doesn't exist. He is a figment of his followers imagination
BG 7.25 (http://vedabase.net/bg/7/25/en): I am never manifest to the foolish and unintelligent. For them I am covered by My internal potency, and therefore they do not know that I am unborn and infallible.


B: Pimping Gods be Gods of war and action, Gods of doing. Not fat lazy candy asses.
BG 7.12 (http://vedabase.net/bg/7/12/en): Know that all states of being — be they of goodness, passion or ignorance — are manifested by My energy. I am, in one sense, everything, but I am independent. I am not under the modes of material nature, for they, on the contrary, are within Me.

Again, pimp. He doesn't work, but no one said He doesn't do anything.

BS 5.6 (http://vedabase.net/bs/5/6/en): The Lord of Gokula (http://vedabase.net/g/gokula) is the transcendental Supreme Godhead, the own Self of eternal ecstasies. He is the superior of all superiors and is busily engaged in the enjoyments of the transcendental realm and has no association with His mundane potency.

C. If your desires are fulfilled by your Gods feet, you are just a foot fetishist.Being absolute, there is no difference between His foot, His brain, His sigil, His name, or any other part of Him.

BS 5.32 (http://vedabase.net/bs/5/32/en): I worship Govinda (http://vedabase.net/g/govinda), the primeval Lord, whose transcendental form is full of bliss, truth, substantiality and is thus full of the most dazzling splendor. Each of the limbs of that transcendental figure possesses in Himself, the full-fledged functions of all the organs, and eternally sees, maintains and manifests the infinite universes, both spiritual and mundane.

NoBowie
27th March 12, 05:41 PM
LOL. I am unborn and infallible. This god of yours is a real prick Arj. And quoting scriptures proves nothing. He needs to tell me in person and perform some cool trick. Like giving me six pack abs.

Lebell
27th March 12, 05:42 PM
That's kinda romantic Lebell.

Yeah.
Bet you would love some of this huh?

Harpy
27th March 12, 05:47 PM
I'm online, give it to me now!

Actually it's romantic to a point, as long as both individuals maintain their identity and some semblance of a 'life' beyond just marriage and don't get possessive, then it works.

Lebell
27th March 12, 05:50 PM
I'm online, give it to me now!

Actually it's romantic to a point, as long as both individuals maintain their identity and some semblance of a 'life' beyond just marriage and don't get possessive, then it works.

that is that whole balance I mentioned.

Ajamil
27th March 12, 05:52 PM
LOL. I am unborn and infallible. This god of yours is a real prick Arj. And quoting scriptures proves nothing. He needs to tell me in person and perform some cool trick. Like giving me six pack abs.You still don't understand absolute. Scripture IS Krishna. They aren't just words he did or did not say that were written down. That's Him. Right there on your screen. Telling you, and you still are too ignorant to see Him.

And yes, when literally everything is created solely for your pleasure, it seems to people who've been told since birth that attitude is wrong to be dickish.

And why do skeptics STILL think you can prove someone is God by forcing them to do something? That's like me saying I don't believe you have any money, NoB, and until you give me ten thousand dollars the default stance should be that you are poor.

NoBowie
27th March 12, 05:58 PM
You still don't understand absolute. Scripture IS Krishna. They aren't just words he did or did not say that were written down. That's Him. Right there on your screen. Telling you, and you still are too ignorant to see Him.

And there are scriptures for other gods. How do I know Krishna has the real religion? Scriptures prove shit. See Moleculo's napkin avatar.


And why do skeptics STILL think you can prove someone is God by forcing them to do something? That's like me saying I don't believe you have any money, NoB, and until you give me ten thousand dollars the default stance should be that you are poor.

Nope, bad analogy. I can show you my balance and my income in a manner which anyone anywhere in the world who is not bank illiterate would believe. Direct evidence.

There is not direct evidence of Krishna that is comparable to that. I can go to a teller of almost any bank in the world and they will all say, "yup, NoB has 10k to give you if he wanted."

However, I cannot go to people of the many different religions and hear "Yup, Krishna is there and can perform miracles for you"

Lebell
27th March 12, 06:05 PM
And there are scriptures for other gods. How do I know Krishna has the real religion?
"

You lack understanding.
That you bring up that one has THE real religion is kinda ignorant.

The religions are all manifestations of the unknown God.
We ourselves, the material existance came from it.

It is like directions to a destination which is only known in vague descriptions, one version focuses on the restaurants and shops as markers, another claims there's only one proper map to reach it, and other people like you go: lolololol I haz 10k in da bank im not moving, wai shuld I amirite?
hahaha lalwz.

NoBowie
27th March 12, 06:07 PM
You lack understanding.
That you bring up that one has THE real religion is kinda ignorant.

The religions are all manifestations of the unknown God.
We ourselves, the material existance came from it.

It is like directions to a destination which is only known in vague descriptions, one version focuses on the restaurants and shops as markers, another claims there's only one proper map to reach it, and other people like you go: lolololol I haz 10k in da bank im not moving, wai shuld I amirite?
hahaha lalwz.

So any religion is ok then?

Awesome. I commune with NoB. He has a valid path, for it says so in his scriptures.

You cannot prove otherwise as all is vaguery. LOL.

Lebell
27th March 12, 06:23 PM
So any religion is ok then?

Awesome. I commune with NoB. He has a valid path, for it says so in his scriptures.

You cannot prove otherwise as all is vaguery. LOL.

nope.
there are guidelines to be found.
don't kill your fellowman.
dont commit adultery.
dont have sex with ur momz.

etc.

Lebell
27th March 12, 06:27 PM
Am I the only one noticing how deliciously ironic it is that these 'critiques' come from a former moro...mormon?

NoBowie
27th March 12, 06:42 PM
nope.
there are guidelines to be found.
don't kill your fellowman.
dont commit adultery.
dont have sex with ur momz.

etc.

Yes, yes. NoBism has all that. So?

NoBowie
27th March 12, 06:46 PM
Former is the key word. You still believe in silly shit. And I didn't believe it for very long, I just hung around because there was so much familial and societal pressure to do so.

Harpy
27th March 12, 07:32 PM
Lebell - Attacking the religious path that NoB had no choice in selecting when he was
born is the most tired/rayped strawman around these parts. His critique may in fact
be the most valid in that he has deprogrammed that once integral part of his
belief system, identity, affiliation and perspective. How successful his attempts have been is another issue (I think he's done damn well).

Having trained in the ways of the Jedi haven't hurt him either.

Ajamil
27th March 12, 09:27 PM
Yes, the best people to critique something are those who have it forced on them and thus hate it as a symbol of their oppressive upbringing. By that token I should write a column on football.

And NoB, your balance is nothing but words on a napkin - 10000 in my pocket or your poor. BTW, NoBism is in the Vedas, also created by Krishna. And He gets royalties.


BG 7.20: Those whose intelligence has been stolen by material desires surrender unto demigods and follow the particular rules and regulations of worship according to their own natures.

BG 7.21: I am in everyone's heart as the Supersoul. As soon as one desires to worship some demigod, I make his faith steady so that he can devote himself to that particular deity.

BG 7.22: Endowed with such a faith, he endeavors to worship a particular demigod and obtains his desires. But in actuality these benefits are bestowed by Me alone.

BG 7.23: Men of small intelligence worship the demigods, and their fruits are limited and temporary. Those who worship the demigods go to the planets of the demigods, but My devotees ultimately reach My supreme planet.

resolve
27th March 12, 09:29 PM
Having trained in the ways of the Jedi haven't hurt him either.

I'm sorry... I couldn't resist D:

kR3PT5E0XDo

nihilist
27th March 12, 10:47 PM
Is it some devil that crawls inside to make you engage in tardbashing?

Harpy
28th March 12, 12:42 AM
The fact that the portly child had more faith in Star Wars than in JC actually makes the tardbashing okay if you're a true Christian (I.e. only if you've received direct validation from God that you're legit and special).

resolve
28th March 12, 12:43 AM
Don't hate.

Everyone has acted like that kid at one point in their lives.

nihilist
28th March 12, 02:15 AM
Don't hate.

Even Jesus acted like that kid at one point in His short but tarded life.

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
28th March 12, 05:02 AM
Don't hate.

Everyone has acted like that kid at one point in their lives.

Please stick to the issues at hand and spend your time tackling them if they are as important to you as you say.

Lebell
28th March 12, 05:19 AM
Former is the key word. You still believe in silly shit. And I didn't believe it for very long, I just hung around because there was so much familial and societal pressure to do so.

There's the difference, YOU believed in some pretty weird shit, if mormonism is the only thing you know, than you have no idea of 'normal' xtianity.
My shit is a LOT less sillier than the joseph smith indian angels of native american crap.

Don't get these two things confused to be the same thing.

Lebell
28th March 12, 05:25 AM
The fact that the portly child had more faith in Star Wars than in JC actually makes the tardbashing okay if you're a true Christian (I.e. only if you've received direct validation from God that you're legit and special).

legit and special?
what do you know about xtianity exactly?
if there's one thing that's being stressed upon its about serving and helping other people and be modest.
not judging.

so xtians bashing other people for silly beliefs or abortus or whatever isnt exactly what the Chief told us to do.

Harpy
28th March 12, 06:30 AM
Relax Lebell, I'm being a smartass.

Lebell
28th March 12, 06:33 AM
AND YOU WILL BURN IN HELL FOR IT

NoBowie
28th March 12, 08:27 AM
There's the difference, YOU believed in some pretty weird shit, if mormonism is the only thing you know, than you have no idea of 'normal' xtianity.
My shit is a LOT less sillier than the joseph smith indian angels of native american crap.

Don't get these two things confused to be the same thing.

I worked with people of many different 'normal' xtian faiths and attended their services when I spent two years as a missionary in boston. Mormonism is only a small part of the world of xtianity I am very familiar with.

Craigypooh
28th March 12, 08:59 AM
There's the difference, YOU believed in some pretty weird shit, if mormonism is the only thing you know, than you have no idea of 'normal' xtianity.
My shit is a LOT less sillier than the joseph smith indian angels of native american crap.

Don't get these two things confused to be the same thing.

It's a small step from thinking one religion is weird and silly to thinking all religions are weird and silly.

nihilist
28th March 12, 10:37 AM
Fun fact: Christians get more abortions than atheists.

Pie of Hate
28th March 12, 10:44 AM
Fun fact: Christians get more abortions than atheists.

Does that mean Christians get more pussy?

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
28th March 12, 10:55 AM
Does that mean Christians get more pussy?

Close knit family structure

Ajamil
28th March 12, 11:03 AM
Is that ratio or total number? Cuz if the latter, duh.

NoBowie
28th March 12, 11:03 AM
Does that mean Christians get more pussy?

No. It means they use less birth control because they feel guilty, which ironically can result in crying, pooping physical evidence of their sin. (pre-marital sex)