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patfromlogan
17th September 03, 09:24 AM
My thanks to Bert T. Rassell and skye (nowhereman).

What is the total number of Iraqis (military and civilians) killed in
their own country since the attack started on March 20, 2003?

As the Pentagon and the massmedia refuse to provide real estimates of both civilian and military casualties, the only recourse is to make your own rough estimate. You know the Pentagon has their estimates, of course fairly good estimates. They are never published: You don't want to publicize your mass murder. If you never mentionm it, it did not happen. If you never mention it, you can still claim to be the good guy.

1. Civilian dead are probably approximately double of what has been reported, as many in the first weeks of the war were rapidly buried and not reported, so approximately 7,000 - 13,000, but many more to come in the next years of disease, hunger, epidemics, lack of medical care and supplies, poverty, unexploded munitions, contaminated water, DU effects, reprisals, crime, suicides, murder, etc.

2. Over 26,000 large bombs (from 250 to 2000 lbs) and cruise
missiles were dropped, especially on large numbers of ground forces
but also on large buildings with many people in them. As over 80% were precision weapons and very well targeted, and assuming an average of 4 killed per bomb (is this a good estimate? Vargas or someone might know), then approx. 60 - 100,000 army and other people were killed by the massive bombardments. It is never discussed. How many bulldozers did the US and UK armies have and use to bury all these soldiers? Most of these soldiers probably were young conscripts from poor peasant families. The Pentagon will never volunteer the number. Of course the mass media will never ask and will never investigate.

3. In addition, over 2600 Iraqi tanks and 2000 trucks and other
vehicles were incinerated by direct fire. Assume an average of 3 dead per vehicle that makes for roughly another 15,000.

The total death toll must then be in the range of 80,000 - 120,000
Iraqi - killed in their own country, by invaders and colonizers, in a
matter of weeks!

I remember the jubilation over a quick victory by our brave
soldiers.

One US military officer stated that people would be very shocked if
they knew the real extent of the carnage. Thousands of US soldiers
will have an inkling (from their knothole) and from the little each of them saw or the bulldozers they used to bury the bodies (but then,
they each only see a relatively small, isolated part of the whole; The Pentagon has the full picture), but they will remain silent as they have been told to be silent or because they are too traumatized to ever talk about it.

And the carnage is never shown on TV, the numbers are always
immediately whitewashed and denied. We are always led to believe it
was a clean fast war again, with only a few deaths. The mass media are not interested, they cannot or will not rock the war machine and will never investigate the mass murder.

That is why Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Feith, Rice, Powell,
Blair, Perle, Rove and others are mass murderers. They killed around
100,000 in Iraq in an illegal immoral invasion, opposed by most of the world, the UN, one billion Muslims, Pope John Paul, many other church leaders, Nelson Mandela, all Iraq's neighbors, Russia, China, France, Germany, and by many small countries that could not be bribed or bullied.

Millions marched in San Francisco, Washington DC, Los Angeles,
Portland, Rome, Barcelona, Madrid, London, and hundreds of other
cities all over the world. Tens and tens of millions will not forget. They know that the so-called 'coalition' was really a cabal of 2 rich western countries, killing 100,000 to get control over the 332 billion barrels of oil reserves again (that they had lost in 1972).

Saddam may have murdered many, but two wrongs never make a right. We
support dictators all over the world and have for many decades. We
supported Sukarno, Suharto, Samosa, Marcos, Franco, Pinochet, Saddam
(1976-1988), etc., etc., never trying to 'liberate' their victims.

That's why whenever I see Bush or Cheney or Blair or Rumsfeld or
Powell or Rice or Wolfowitz or Perle on TV, I say again and again:
There I see a modern-day (and state-sanctioned) mass murderer.

Bush and Blair should never have started this illegal war.
As in 1982 in Lebanon, it is easy to send in mechanized armies and
kill lots of people, but time and again it has been shown you can
never build peace on mass graves. Mechanized armies can kill but they
cannot govern, they cannot build. That's why this violence will only
lead to more violence, in Iraq or somewhere else, and the cycle
continues. That's why Bush and Blair's victory will be hollow, a
Phyrric victory. There has been jubilation, as happened in Germany
after Hitler's quick victories, but all the effects of the gory
violence will still have to play out - for years to come - and these
will not be good.

Deadpan Scientist
17th September 03, 01:12 PM
1. Civilian dead are probably approximately double of what has been reported, as many in the first weeks of the war were rapidly buried and not reported, so approximately 7,000 - 13,000, but many more to come in the next years of disease, hunger, epidemics, lack of medical care and supplies, poverty, unexploded munitions, contaminated water, DU effects, reprisals, crime, suicides, murder, etc.


How can you honestly say that people committing suicide should be added to the deathtoll of the war? How is "Bushco" responsible for someone killing themself?

People are murdered right here in the US every year, do you blame that on whoever happens to be the president too?


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aaronboyd2: Or you could quote ME quoting Freaky Friday
aaronboyd2: I LOOK LIKE THE CRYPT KEEPER

The Wastrel
17th September 03, 01:42 PM
We supported Sukarno, who incorporated the Communist party into the governement of Indonesia, AND the man who deposed him in a violent coup?

Deadpan Scientist
17th September 03, 01:56 PM
Don't ask me, I'm a biochemist!

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aaronboyd2: Or you could quote ME quoting Freaky Friday
aaronboyd2: I LOOK LIKE THE CRYPT KEEPER

DANINJA
18th September 03, 09:27 AM
70% of american beleive Saddam was behind Sept 11th-now Bush has finally admitted there is no link-read:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3118262.stm

patfromlogan
18th September 03, 10:17 AM
In the paper this morining Bush says there no link. What spin are they creating? Is this a pre-emtive stike?

And yes, Bolverk, just like I call the suicides by Vietnam vets (more than died in the war killed themselves within 10 years of the war's end) victims of the war.

Watrel, stop confusing me. I like my mind made up one way.

Deadpan Scientist
18th September 03, 10:38 AM
You're a double idiot.

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aaronboyd2: Or you could quote ME quoting Freaky Friday
aaronboyd2: I LOOK LIKE THE CRYPT KEEPER

elipson
18th September 03, 11:50 AM
I cant fucking believe that 70% of americans think Saddam was behind sept 11. Like how fucking ignorant do you get? And notice how Dubya cultivated that fear until LONG after the fact! I wonder why he didnt say this earlier?

How can ppl still support this guy! He's proven many many times that he can't be trusted!