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Lebell
22nd November 10, 04:42 AM
The recent events in my country confirmed my ideas about current western society, bare in mind that eventhough issues are different from one western country to another, there are enough commonalities to see a bigger general western picture.

I'll tell you my perception of what is happening over here, it will lead to my point:

After the 90ies, during which we had a social-leftist government, people had enough: the economy was doing great, but underneath there were ethnic tensions which always got swept under the rug, and the government would throw money at them by buiding 'youthhouses' where the troubled kids could hang out, play pool, do rap workshops etc instead of robbing old ladies.
You dont have to be a social worker to see this will not work.

9/11 happened and youth of arabic origin were seen partying on the streets of some Dutch cities.
Not adding to the peace.

Early 2000 saw the rise of Fortuyn, he said things (Like a lot of people felt)like they were: the immigrants are costing us shitl;oads of money, create most crimes, hardly speak the language and arent co-operating/ participating in society.
When the old politicians realised he was going to take governmentseats by storm they started a whole campaign comparing him to hitler, goebbels, calling him an inferior human being , etc.
In may 2002 they got their wish, Fortuyn left the building of a radiostation, walked towards his car but never got there: an animals rights activist shot him dead.
Immediately after the shooting over a dozen cops and a dog unit (' who happened to be in the neighbourhood) caught the killer in one piece.
A backgroundcheck was made and its all a very unlikely story, how does a socially awkward pencilnecked animals rights activist get hold of a gun, etc, what were those cops doing there?

our version of JFK, Fortuyn would have been chosen as our prime minister,according to polls.

After Fortuyn's assisination a shitstorm broke lose, on the streets, in the media and several politicians left politics and needed personal security from death threats.
Theo van Gogh, the dutch filmmaker was convinced he got killed by the secret service by order of the elite and made a movie about it.

Ever since Fortuyn it was on: the criticism on the multicultural society/experiment and how it failed was a standard ingredent of each politicians repertoire, including from politicians belonging to the parties that stuffed it down our throats in the first place.

Wilders is a direct result of the Fortuyn revolte.
He has the same ideas but gets a beter treatment cos the government learned from Fortuyn, no chance Wilders will get assasinated so clearly.
Maybe he'll get cancer or something.

What is the point of all this info about this little shitty country somewhere in north western europe?
paralels to the JFK assasination:
things got lost at government bureaus, unlikely activist killer, magic arrest as if they knew who to grab, and a politician that the elite did not agree with, had or was about to have power near the source of the elite and he got whacked.

post no2 i'll go into the concept of society.

Lebell
22nd November 10, 05:00 AM
About society:

Like i've said before, society is one big piece of make belief.
Society is run by a government who's supposed to represent us, but that's not where the real power lies.
What is a society?
It's a group of people forming a nation, sharing their place and (partially at least) indentity in this world.
Now like with each group you roughly got 10% retards, 10% rocket scientists and 80% average people.
A lot of the people who for the elite are obviously the rocket science type.
The elite consists outta bussiness moguls, (in holland usually really old families, into bussiness since generations) bankers etc, they and ONLY they hold the real power.
Why?
Because they make the money.
Politicians follow their wishes first because it will be their boards they will work in after their political carreer.
A politician can have many nice plans for social reforms for a more just society, but if the elite says no, it's no, or they'll simply take their evenues away.

What does the elite want?
To maintain their wealth if not getting wealthier.
How do they do it?

Basically like they do it in any western society..hell any society on earth: create a 'cry wolf' situation.
What government would like best is for us to drop dead on the day of our retirement, so we wont cost any money.
The elite is a different entitity then the government, the elite doesnt care even about that: they want to keep us busy, whjile they are reeling in the serious cash.
We are all a bunch of monkeys fighting eachother over crumbs, we are being manipulated to look down on immigrants, people on wellfare, homeless etc, we are being taught to be winners in a game we cant win, because we do not have the same acces to the game as the elite has.
Give us stupid tv shows, create government jobs that arent essential at all, a lot of people are on welfare but dont even realise it, because when you give a pointless job a title and a name, its a real job, right?

There is a sinister trend with all this: globalisation.
An united happy society of people will have extra time to think, reason and investigate, and they might start to get the wrong ideas about how wealth is being distributed.
So immigrants were imported, troubles created, all to keep the people occupied while the elite carries on doing what it does.
Right now cos of the high costs of immigrants we cant keep our former excellent and cheap healthcare system, monthly pays have doubled compared to 15 years ago, if not trippled.
The elite doesnt care, they have their own private clinics to go to anyway.

The globalisation works twofold: socially import people to the nations of the elites origins to destabilise societies there, and open foreign markets, and sending their bussiness people there.
When borders fall and the 'free market' will effectvely rule supreme the rich elite is free to move where they want, reaping markets everywhere leaving unstable societies in their wake.
Free market's a good thing?
Ask the asians, the africans, the south american farmers how free the market really is.
This sounds nutty but its policy.

Why?
Why would they do that?

Because they know the financial system got out of hand and needs a drastic correction.
How do you make a drastic correction in such an epic crisis and yet avoid losing too much money?
simple: war.

Steve
22nd November 10, 05:03 AM
Preaching to the choir makes you feel big, we know that.

Lebell
22nd November 10, 05:09 AM
Preaching to the choir makes you feel big, we know that.
^ Steve here is a typical example of a systemslave: works a job in the margin, selling stuff, feels unsatisfied about it, but buys into the bluecollar bullcrap, so what does he do?
keeps going to his job, counts the hours til he's home where he is STEEV SUPREME MODERATOR OF SOCIOCIDE and where everybody loves him.
He gets to 'troll' and be 'witty' and has the idea he matters somehow.
The next day he does it all again.

What Steve doesnt know is, how little he gets for his work, how lousy his healthcare is, how lousy the quality of the food is that he can afford to buy, he doesnt realise that indirectly the elite's policy of 'fuck you got mine' directly influences his lifespan and health.

Adouglasmhor
22nd November 10, 02:41 PM
What you know need to know about Dutch politics. They used to have a prime minister called Wim Kok.

Spade: The Real Snake
22nd November 10, 03:22 PM
tl:dr
LOLEBELLLAND

Harpy
22nd November 10, 03:33 PM
Preaching to the choir makes you feel big, we know that.
Unnecessary.

Lebell is at least making an effort to voice his perspective on an issue we're all interested in. You might want to leave the futon wars for the other thread Steve.

Lebell
22nd November 10, 04:17 PM
it shouldnt matter too much wether shit happens in holland, oz or the usa, the powers that be have pretty much the same o.m.

Hedgehogey
22nd November 10, 06:37 PM
Hi there Third Position.

Lebell
23rd November 10, 04:07 AM
quiet Hedge, this is grown up stuff.

AAAAAA
23rd November 10, 04:15 AM
Lebell, how do you propose to escape from this situation?

Lebell
23rd November 10, 04:27 AM
Lebell, how do you propose to escape from this situation?

thats the difficult thing.
Cuba got out of that situation, but now they're stuck with Castro.
Thats hardly a win.

The only systems that seem able to overthrow those elites are the extreme ones: communism, national socialism.
On a global scale the rest of the elites will push the governments of their own nations to either declare war (and letting the kids of the poor people go fight in it) or give economic sanctions.
So it's a hundred headed Hydra, you chop of one head in one nation but it still exists.

The concept of nations in the perspective is laughable, the elite doesnt have borders, they have property, factories, politicians in their pockets world wide.

The Bush family knows the Bin Laden family, etc.

I do not have a solution, but my guess is we should look at a global system of monitoring and distributing resources, the current system should be totally destroyed and overhauled.

Lots of rightwings would say: 'yeah thats communism son, the free market is much better for patriots and laddedah i gonna fuck me a piggah!'

I'd say to that: that is indeed an ASPECT of communism, but with the dwindeling global resources it isnt sucha stupid idea, soon the days will be gone where each private company can gain acces to whatever country's resources it wants: they'll need backup from military.

The free market never was free: the usa and europe always manipulated the prices and import taxes so the africans and south americans wouldnt be able to enter the european and american markets with their crops.

If you really want to hep the third world it can be done within 20 years: you open the markets for them and give em a fair chance to compete.
Our own farmers will go belly up or they'll adjust and find a new role to play.

instead we close our markets and keep our economy healthy, and the third world gets 'devellopment money', now thats one of the most ironic names for that ever.
Devellopment money is meant to dissapear in dictators pockets and people to fight over, its a pacifier.

Cullion
23rd November 10, 04:33 AM
'The free market hasn't really been free so far so I'm not going to try it for real. Instead I'd prefer something where I get to give lots of orders'.

That's the real content of what you just said.

Lebell
23rd November 10, 04:42 AM
'The free market hasn't really been free so far so I'm not going to try it for real. Instead I'd prefer something where I get to give lots of orders'.

That's the real content of what you just said.

It is in a way like that.
The problem is an eternal one: let's say in 20 years from now, some significant events happen where there's a worldwide revolution, everyone's eyes is opened and as one we would really do a complete overhaul.

The resources are indexed in types and locations around the globe and we put up trade committees to monitor and communicate how much resources must be produced and where to distribute them for what price.

Where do we find the people who actually know what they are doing?
Let's say we find a sufficient amount of those people, within one generation there's a new elite.

its a moral problem, just like we see with the bankers, they're already dealing out bonusses, because if they dont their topguys go somewhere else.

its greed what is the weakpoint, so we must find a way to let greed work for us in a healthy way.

Cullion
23rd November 10, 04:48 AM
It's called capitalism. What the bankers are doing isn't capitalism.

Lebell
23rd November 10, 04:56 AM
oh and about my remark about having trading committees who monitor and distribute, im sure to some of you pseudo intelectuals this seems funny, allow me to snap you outta your ignorance and paint you the picture of how its done right now:

The prices of goods and the value of the companies who process, or trade them is being determined on the stockexchange: each tiny little rumour is able to make stock drop by dozes of percents causing worldwide instability.
any real; stockbroker will agree with me that to a huge extend stockexchange is psychology and you might just aswell have a division of chimps randomly buy and sell shit, making em ram on buttons.
(though they prob wont agree with the chimp bit cos they'd be outta a job).

world trade: due to retarded taxes and import/export laws and even currencies issues, it is sometimes 'cheaper' for cargo to be shipped on a route twice as long, thus using twice as much fuel then a direct route.
Especially in seacargo this happens a lot.

Within Europe i know several examples:parmaham is italian right?
wrong.
parma ham is made from dutch pigs, they got stuffed in an awfull way in trucks, drven to parma where they're slaughtered and processed into hams, thus they can bare the seal of official parmaham...THEN they get transported back to holland for 5 times the price per kilogram to be sold.

the fish: lots of fish fishermen from the uk and holand catch ends up eventually in the huge markets of Lille, which is some european main hub for fishmarkets.
due to transportcosts and quota, fines and taxes they then make their way back to the countries they were originally caught (also other countries ofc) for again:3 to 5 times the price tey originally were.

the whole system is retarded and also the polution would drop dramatically if we'd overthrow this system.

Each country will get its own international tradezone: it is a zone of special status: the country it lies in is responsible for its security, but all the international factories, offices etc will be based in that zone, it has its own borders and airports, hotels, living quarters etc.

italians still use dutch pigmeat? then they build their own original parmaham factory with their own employees in the zone, no bs with working permits, foreign taxes, etc.
those zones have the sdame concepts as ambessy's have except:its a bit like international waters.

the countries wherin the zones lie still maintain security and can charge for that and are also in teir right to uphold environemental laws.

Cullion
23rd November 10, 05:07 AM
The prices of goods and the value of the companies who process, or trade them is being determined on the stockexchange: each tiny little rumour is able to make stock drop by dozes of percents causing worldwide instability.
any real; stockbroker will agree with me that to a huge extend stockexchange is psychology and you might just aswell have a division of chimps randomly buy and sell shit, making em ram on buttons.
(though they prob wont agree with the chimp bit cos they'd be outta a job).

The prices decided by bidding of millions of participants acting in their own self-interest more accurately reflect the economic reality than those decided by your committees.

Most of the other points in your post could be addressed by dismantling the EU. Except for the part where you get to tell other countries what to do.

Lebell
23rd November 10, 05:37 AM
The prices decided by bidding of millions of participants acting in their own self-interest more accurately reflect the economic reality than those decided by your committees.
No, these committees wouldnt be polit bureaus mind you.
They'd be regulators/matchmakers for the demand and offers of those million of participants.
those people still bid, the committee still assigns the deals, except the biggest scams and tricks would be rooted out, it'd be a break on manipulation sorta speak.
a regulator, nothing more.


Most of the other points in your post could be addressed by dismantling the EU. Except for the part where you get to tell other countries what to do.
Thats the englishman talking here.
The EU shouldnt be dismantled, it should be reformed/restored to what it was meant to be: a trading block.
co-operating nations who together can bundle their economics to be competative with china, india and the usa.

the EU problematics in short are simple: they are nothing.
they arent a real government (but hard on their way) and they arent a real trade entity.
they are hanging somewhere in the middle: hurting the economy by meddeling with domestic affairs and overruling national policy, by allowing economically weak countries into the eurozone.
EU now is more about funding poor members, instead of elevating them by investments and get e on board for an economical offensive strategy.

tey are bogged down by unimaginative politicians, lacking view, babbeling about the european culture/identity, where it was designed to be a powerhouse where France and Germany would combine their forces, and also to make it less likely for another war in europe to occur.

Cullion
23rd November 10, 05:38 AM
No, these committees wouldnt be polit bureaus mind you.
They'd be regulators/matchmakers for the demand and offers of those million of participants.
those people still bid, the committee still assigns the deals, except the biggest scams and tricks would be rooted out, it'd be a break on manipulation sorta speak.
a regulator, nothing more.

What's your definition of a scam or 'trick' ?

Lebell
23rd November 10, 05:38 AM
and I blasme the leftists for that.
the red plague must be rooted out from the european mainland.

Lebell
23rd November 10, 05:40 AM
What's your definition of a scam or 'trick' ?
you know damn well what i mean, dont try to test me.

manipulations with currencies, import-export taxes, spreading rumours via media to manipulate stockmarkets, basically every trick in the book of whats happening now.

Cullion
23rd November 10, 05:45 AM
What do you mean 'manipulation with currencies'? Are people to be prevented from selling currencies they believe to be weak?

People are to be forbidden from talking about companies or governments they believe to be taking unsound actions ?

Your committee is going to have the power to change other countries' taxes ?

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
23rd November 10, 06:03 AM
The committees will become the new corruptable elite

Lebell
23rd November 10, 06:53 AM
The committees will become the new corruptable elite
Thats what i said myself, so the most important thing is to come up with a way to contain that risk.
im not saying I ave all the answers here, corruption will always be a problem, but the concept of having international freehavens, trading zones will help to stabilise the world economy significantly.
it also brings one world currency closer and a whole next gen approach of economics.
the current system will die within our lifetime.
so we better come up with something new.

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
23rd November 10, 07:01 AM
Anarchism and space migration?

AAAAAA
23rd November 10, 07:05 AM
Cullion, if some people hold overwhelming resources, and can manipulate - say - currencies and therefore whole markets... all the others will be freely choosing to sell the weak currency, but will only be following the plan of the holders of the bigger club.

That said, the word "committee" has been disgraced by recent history, more or less like the name "Adolf". Let's call them "our enlightened pioneers of the shining path".
No, that's not good either. Maybe... "Oi Polloi"?

Lebell
23rd November 10, 07:07 AM
What do you mean 'manipulation with currencies'? Are people to be prevented from selling currencies they believe to be weak?

thats harmless, but what about governments lowering their own, or buy in on a scale that affects the course of said currencies?
stop being an obtuse 20th century caveman.
im talking about a new dawn here.
try to grasp the implications.



People are to be forbidden from talking about companies or governments they believe to be taking unsound actions ?

Your committee is going to have the power to change other countries' taxes ?

Yes and no.
Picture each country having these zones, the industrial complexes near miningoperations, trade hubs, services providers, banks, etc all in one giant freetrade zone, the countries hosting the zones reap taxes from them, so the more they invest in the zones location and infrastructure wise they get more filials of multinationals thus more money, its no different from what countries are doing now: by taxes cuts make themselves attractive for investors.

this way is much more to the point and flexible.
you make an international 'rent'standard, which includes number of employees, polution, use of local resources such as water,sewersystem etc, or in the long run companies can opt to have those imported (in african countries) and provide their own electricity with green technology.

The trading committee manages the free lots, its basically a rent a space system, the italian parmaham dudes build teir factory in holland, pigs travel 2 hours instead of 2 days, get processed the authentic way, without raising the price 5 foldedly.

They wanna export the ham?
They can transport it from freezone to freetradezone avoiding import taxes keeping prices low.
The governments still get income from the activitystandards of freetradezones, so no worries there.
you just lose extra costs, so you can offer same amount of products, for lower price and with far lower polution/ecological footprints.

AAAAAA
23rd November 10, 07:08 AM
Thats what i said myself, so the most important thing is to come up with a way to contain that risk.


Giving the power to the Committee will only make it easier for them to conceal corruption!



im not saying I ave all the answers here, corruption will always be a problem, but the concept of having international freehavens, trading zones will help to stabilise the world economy significantly.
it also brings one world currency closer and a whole next gen approach of economics.
the current system will die within our lifetime.
so we better come up with something new.

Don't we already have a sort of "free havens", like Macau or Taiwan? Aren't there whole parts of countries like Vietnam exclusively dedicated to foreign industries?
I might be missing your point here, but I don't understand how it would work out.

Cullion
23rd November 10, 07:09 AM
Cullion, if some people hold overwhelming resources, and can manipulate - say - currencies and therefore whole markets... all the others will be freely choosing to sell the weak currency, but will only be following the plan of the holders of the bigger club.

Who do you believe sells currencies with some ulterior motive other than simply to protect their wealth against the weakening of that currency ?

Cullion
23rd November 10, 07:13 AM
thats harmless, but what about governments lowering their own, or buy in on a scale that affects the course of said currencies?

If you don't trust the value of a government's currency, you can sell it. What else do you need to do?



stop being an obtuse 20th century caveman.
im talking about a new dawn here.
try to grasp the implications.

Yes, you're describing a system where you get to bark orders so you can have cheaper ham.



Yes and no.
Picture each country having these zones, the industrial complexes near miningoperations, trade hubs, services providers, banks, etc all in one giant freetrade zone, the countries hosting the zones reap taxes from them, so the more they invest in the zones location and infrastructure wise they get more filials of multinationals thus more money, its no different from what countries are doing now: by taxes cuts make themselves attractive for investors.

this way is much more to the point and flexible.
you make an international 'rent'standard, which includes number of employees, polution, use of local resources such as water,sewersystem etc, or in the long run companies can opt to have those imported (in african countries) and provide their own electricity with green technology.

The trading committee manages the free lots, its basically a rent a space system, the italian parmaham dudes build teir factory in holland, pigs travel 2 hours instead of 2 days, get processed the authentic way, without raising the price 5 foldedly.

They wanna export the ham?
They can transport it from freezone to freetradezone avoiding import taxes keeping prices low.
The governments still get income from the activitystandards of freetradezones, so no worries there.
you just lose extra costs, so you can offer same amount of products, for lower price and with far lower polution/ecological footprints.

You're talking about establishing embassies of lebell-land in other people's sovereign territory where you get to organise their economy they way you like it, so you can have cheaper stuff.

Why not start just with how you'd re-order Holland.

Lebell
23rd November 10, 07:14 AM
i think you guys really dont grasp wat im saying here: EVERYBODY will win: economy, devellopment countries, nature, suddenly we can acces all the resources without destroying large parts to manipulate our own individual small economies.
there is no need for that anymore.

the only ones who arent winning as much as they used to is the old elite.

im talking about maximum efficiency here, maximum efficiency that allows us more time to find better green technology:we'll use way less fossile fuels so it enlarges our window of opportunity, it takes longer for us to run out of it.

All kinds of bussinessmen who otherwise couldnt meet up because of their countries animosities can do so now: to enter a cuban free tradezone is not the same as to enter cuban terratory.
The local bussiness mogul in Nairobi suddenly as the chance to travel to canada and network there, without canada having to fear he'll dissapear into the country.
free trade zones are locked down, you cant enter or leave without passport controls, a free trade zone will be an entire entity on its own.

AAAAAA
23rd November 10, 07:18 AM
Who do you believe sells currencies with some ulterior motive other than simply to protect their wealth against the weakening of that currency ?

Somebody who could benefit from a waterfall effect of other people doing the same after him, leveraging more than he "should" be able to do?

Cullion
23rd November 10, 07:18 AM
i think you guys really dont grasp wat im saying here: EVERYBODY will win: economy, devellopment countries, nature, suddenly we can acces all the resources without destroying large parts to manipulate our own individual small economies.
there is no need for that anymore.

What you're talking about is just establishing little Hong Kong's in every country's territory run by some supra-national Lebell-korps. Most of the other efficiencies you keep raving about wouldn't occur.

Why don't you just vote for lower taxation in Holland?

Lebell
23rd November 10, 07:19 AM
You're talking about establishing embassies of lebell-land in other people's sovereign territory where you get to organsie their economy they way you like it, so you can have cheaper parma ham.

the whole concept of sovereign territory is already absolete.
im talking zones here, varying in sizes, nations get huge income from hosting them.
the prices of products drop but the full access of 6 billion consumers makes that loss up in sheer numbers.

this is the only hope: mass co-operation out of self interest.
greed as the engine for massive breakthroughs in uplifting poor countries, develloping solar power and placing them in desert wastelands which werent used anyhow.

this 'fuck you got mine' will sooner or later change into 'oh my, we're all fucked'

Lebell
23rd November 10, 07:21 AM
What you're talking about is just establishing little Hong Kong's in every country's territory run by some supra-national Lebell-korps. Most of the other efficiencies you keep raving about wouldn't occur.

Why don't you just vote for lower taxation in Holland?

No i disagree.
The most pivatal era will be the first 20 years of the existance of sucha organisation.
Will it flourish or will it turn into another IMF?

You can be sarcastic all you like, your path leads to a status quo which will lead to war with China which is on its way to topple the status quo in its favor.

Cullion
23rd November 10, 07:23 AM
Somebody who could benefit from a waterfall effect of other people doing the same after him, leveraging more than he "should" be able to do?

Who?

Cullion
23rd November 10, 07:24 AM
No i disagree.
The most pivatal era will be the first 20 years of the existance of sucha organisation.
Will it flourish or will it turn into another IMF?

You can be sarcastic all you like, your path leads to a status quo which will lead to war with China which is on its way to topple the status quo in its favor.

I think your understanding of economics goes about as far as your understanding of physics.

'HAI NO IT'S LIKE THIS RIGHT?'

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
23rd November 10, 07:27 AM
How about dropping all borders and trade barriers and having a free for all?

AAAAAA
23rd November 10, 07:34 AM
Who?

Somebody who can then rebuy the currency and make other people do the same and then selling it when it's peaked and back to step 1 ad infinitum, gaining more at each step?

That's naif but I'm sure i'm onto something. If only I knew anything about economy I have a feeling I could even name this thing...

Lebell
23rd November 10, 08:20 AM
I think your understanding of economics goes about as far as your understanding of physics.

'HAI NO IT'S LIKE THIS RIGHT?'

no you sheep, do you even realise you do not allow yourself to think outside of the box?
you seriously lack vision.
Stop being a follower.
You're smarter than that.

Lebell
23rd November 10, 08:20 AM
How about dropping all borders and trade barriers and having a free for all?

That would be very dangerous.

Cullion
23rd November 10, 08:22 AM
Somebody who can then rebuy the currency and make other people do the same and then selling it when it's peaked and back to step 1 ad infinitum, gaining more at each step?

Who ?

Cullion
23rd November 10, 08:26 AM
no you sheep, do you even realise you do not allow yourself to think outside of the box?
you seriously lack vision.
Stop being a follower.
You're smarter than that.

I'm a follower? ho ho ho.

Your ideas come straight from Europaische WirtschaftGemeinschaft, and your version of 'thinking outside the box' equates to 'not understanding the implications of anything you say and then refusing to learn'.

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
23rd November 10, 08:34 AM
That would be very dangerous.

I dont believe you.

AAAAAA
23rd November 10, 08:42 AM
Who ?

I don't have names, I'm theorizing a mechanism. Comment on that?

Cullion
23rd November 10, 08:44 AM
I don't think there's a single non-government player big enough to play 'pump & dump' with a national currency.

AAAAAA
23rd November 10, 08:46 AM
I don't think there's a single non-government player big enough to play 'pump & dump' with a national currency.

But there's so many national currencies and so many incomprehensibly rich guys, that I'd find it odd if that's not being exploited already. What about the Evil Corporations?

Cullion
23rd November 10, 08:48 AM
Which evil corporations?, which people?

I think they all make their money in other ways. Pump and Dump is incredibly risky, and the fortunes of the world's richest individuals are tiny drops in the sea of liquidity for the major currencies.

AAAAAA
23rd November 10, 08:58 AM
Which evil corporations, which people?

I think they all make their money in other ways. Pump and Dump is incredibly risky, and the fortunes of the world's richest individuals are tiny drops in the sea of liquidity for the major currencies.

How is it risky, and what about the minor currencies?

Cullion
23rd November 10, 09:03 AM
It's risky because if the tide turns before you planned on it, then you're left holding all that devalued currency.

Most of the time when governments complain about 'currency speculators' what they really mean is 'wah! it's not fair that people have spotted that we're trying to live beyond our means and are taking steps to protect themselves from exposure to our junk bonds. No fair!'

Vieux Normand
23rd November 10, 11:45 AM
What the bankers are doing isn't capitalism.

How many bankers are there who don't attempt to get the maximum possible personal gain, from the minimum possible effort, via just about any means available?

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
23rd November 10, 12:19 PM
How many bankers are there who don't attempt to get the maximum possible personal gain, from the minimum possible effort, via just about any means available?

Well there is Triodos Bank (http://www.triodos.co.uk/en/personal/)

Ajamil
23rd November 10, 12:19 PM
Can we get back to the part where Holland's dream PM got whacked by a member of PeTA? Killed by someone who was most likely vegan - there's joke potential right there.

resolve
23rd November 10, 12:52 PM
This is the precursor to Lebell's "Mein Kampf for the New World Order"... I just know it :P.

KO'd N DOA
23rd November 10, 12:57 PM
Can we get back to the part where Holland's dream PM got whacked by a member of PeTA? Killed by someone who was most likely vegan - there's joke potential right there.


I agree, how could that K9 turn on someone who loved him so much. I smell a conspiracy...

Lebell
23rd November 10, 01:41 PM
Can we get back to the part where Holland's dream PM got whacked by a member of PeTA? Killed by someone who was most likely vegan - there's joke potential right there.

There's enough about it on the internet, also in english.
Pim Fortuyn, assisination, etc.
go wiki go!

Cullion
23rd November 10, 03:04 PM
How many bankers are there who don't attempt to get the maximum possible personal gain, from the minimum possible effort, via just about any means available?

That's not the same as allowing them licence to create money out of nothing. That's down to the stupid laws we've allowed pass (obviously with their influence). Those laws can be cleaned up. Vague crap about 'well people are greedy you know, um greed is bad' isn't going to help.

AAAhmed46
23rd November 10, 08:16 PM
There's enough about it on the internet, also in english.
Pim Fortuyn, assisination, etc.
go wiki go!

Wasn't the killer an environmentalist?

On that, why isn't there focus on all these leftwing extremists groups popping up over Europe? From what ive seen, everyone talks about the far right/fascist elements or the dirty moslemy folk, but never the violent lefties that are coming out? How reliable is europol anyway?

AAAhmed46
23rd November 10, 08:23 PM
The recent events in my country confirmed my ideas about current western society, bare in mind that eventhough issues are different from one western country to another, there are enough commonalities to see a bigger general western picture.

I'll tell you my perception of what is happening over here, it will lead to my point:

After the 90ies, during which we had a social-leftist government, people had enough: the economy was doing great, but underneath there were ethnic tensions which always got swept under the rug, and the government would throw money at them by buiding 'youthhouses' where the troubled kids could hang out, play pool, do rap workshops etc instead of robbing old ladies.
You dont have to be a social worker to see this will not work.

9/11 happened and youth of arabic origin were seen partying on the streets of some Dutch cities.
Not adding to the peace.

Early 2000 saw the rise of Fortuyn, he said things (Like a lot of people felt)like they were: the immigrants are costing us shitl;oads of money, create most crimes, hardly speak the language and arent co-operating/ participating in society.
When the old politicians realised he was going to take governmentseats by storm they started a whole campaign comparing him to hitler, goebbels, calling him an inferior human being , etc.
In may 2002 they got their wish, Fortuyn left the building of a radiostation, walked towards his car but never got there: an animals rights activist shot him dead.
Immediately after the shooting over a dozen cops and a dog unit (' who happened to be in the neighbourhood) caught the killer in one piece.
A backgroundcheck was made and its all a very unlikely story, how does a socially awkward pencilnecked animals rights activist get hold of a gun, etc, what were those cops doing there?

our version of JFK, Fortuyn would have been chosen as our prime minister,according to polls.

After Fortuyn's assisination a shitstorm broke lose, on the streets, in the media and several politicians left politics and needed personal security from death threats.
Theo van Gogh, the dutch filmmaker was convinced he got killed by the secret service by order of the elite and made a movie about it.

Ever since Fortuyn it was on: the criticism on the multicultural society/experiment and how it failed was a standard ingredent of each politicians repertoire, including from politicians belonging to the parties that stuffed it down our throats in the first place.

Wilders is a direct result of the Fortuyn revolte.
He has the same ideas but gets a beter treatment cos the government learned from Fortuyn, no chance Wilders will get assasinated so clearly.
Maybe he'll get cancer or something.

What is the point of all this info about this little shitty country somewhere in north western europe?
paralels to the JFK assasination:
things got lost at government bureaus, unlikely activist killer, magic arrest as if they knew who to grab, and a politician that the elite did not agree with, had or was about to have power near the source of the elite and he got whacked.

post no2 i'll go into the concept of society.

While the nature of american immigration is different with it's own share of problems, why are they not dealing with the same issues as Europe is? Mexicans or Islam, the states just seems to have smarter immigration. They save money getting mexican migrants to work for cheap, but objectivly, the whole 'mexican takeover' scare is really GOP fear mongering. Overall, id say they have been smart about it. Islamic immigration isn't as bad as in europe, but still large numbers, but with far far more integration and patriotism from american and canadian muslims.
It seems teh europian policy is to get a shit load of people, and just throwing them out into europian society, without them really MIXING and integrating.
Some will credit american melting pot philosophy as this better immigration, and to a degree this is true.
But canada is also multicultural like europe, with a huge foriegn population. We even had sikh terrorist attacks and the toronto 17/18 with muslims.

Yet we still don't seem to have the issues that europe faces, atleast not to the same extent.

So is teh solution really communism or national socialism? Or simply a better immigration policy?

Ajamil
23rd November 10, 08:25 PM
The solution is a country twice the size of their entire continent.

AAAhmed46
23rd November 10, 08:26 PM
About society:

Like i've said before, society is one big piece of make belief.
Society is run by a government who's supposed to represent us, but that's not where the real power lies.
What is a society?
It's a group of people forming a nation, sharing their place and (partially at least) indentity in this world.
Now like with each group you roughly got 10% retards, 10% rocket scientists and 80% average people.
A lot of the people who for the elite are obviously the rocket science type.
The elite consists outta bussiness moguls, (in holland usually really old families, into bussiness since generations) bankers etc, they and ONLY they hold the real power.
Why?
Because they make the money.
Politicians follow their wishes first because it will be their boards they will work in after their political carreer.
A politician can have many nice plans for social reforms for a more just society, but if the elite says no, it's no, or they'll simply take their evenues away.

What does the elite want?
To maintain their wealth if not getting wealthier.
How do they do it?

Basically like they do it in any western society..hell any society on earth: create a 'cry wolf' situation.
What government would like best is for us to drop dead on the day of our retirement, so we wont cost any money.
The elite is a different entitity then the government, the elite doesnt care even about that: they want to keep us busy, whjile they are reeling in the serious cash.
We are all a bunch of monkeys fighting eachother over crumbs, we are being manipulated to look down on immigrants, people on wellfare, homeless etc, we are being taught to be winners in a game we cant win, because we do not have the same acces to the game as the elite has.
Give us stupid tv shows, create government jobs that arent essential at all, a lot of people are on welfare but dont even realise it, because when you give a pointless job a title and a name, its a real job, right?

There is a sinister trend with all this: globalisation.
An united happy society of people will have extra time to think, reason and investigate, and they might start to get the wrong ideas about how wealth is being distributed.
So immigrants were imported, troubles created, all to keep the people occupied while the elite carries on doing what it does.
Right now cos of the high costs of immigrants we cant keep our former excellent and cheap healthcare system, monthly pays have doubled compared to 15 years ago, if not trippled.
The elite doesnt care, they have their own private clinics to go to anyway.

The globalisation works twofold: socially import people to the nations of the elites origins to destabilise societies there, and open foreign markets, and sending their bussiness people there.
When borders fall and the 'free market' will effectvely rule supreme the rich elite is free to move where they want, reaping markets everywhere leaving unstable societies in their wake.
Free market's a good thing?
Ask the asians, the africans, the south american farmers how free the market really is.
This sounds nutty but its policy.

Why?
Why would they do that?

Because they know the financial system got out of hand and needs a drastic correction.
How do you make a drastic correction in such an epic crisis and yet avoid losing too much money?
simple: war.


Yet why don't we give the people who protest at the G8 more screen time then? Maybe the problem isn't the system or ideals that need to be replaced by communism and fascism but simply, globalization? The advent of the interwebz?

Maybe the problem isn't the system but parts of it, maybe the problem isn't the whole system but simply the media reporting it? IT seems like the media is no longer a useful tool in society anymore. Why didn't it inform us of these issues until shit hit the fan? Maybe we simply have irresponsible people managing our input/ouput of information?

AAAhmed46
23rd November 10, 08:30 PM
The solution is a country twice the size of their entire continent.

Good point, and i was going to get to that.

Australia is having some major issues with immigrants, yet that place is huge. Yet it seems to be having issues like the netherlands. In australia and europe, notice how immigrant groups flock together in ghettos(not by poor, just a type of self-inforced apartied) Now compare that canadian cities, where the immigrants are living in white suburban neighborhoods too.

It still doesn't rule out immigration policy. Think about it, there are enough muslims in toronto to pull off that burning poppies bullshit and holding signs like 'behead those that insult inslam' but it didn't happen. It didn't happen like it did in britain. in the states either.

Vieux Normand
23rd November 10, 11:04 PM
That's not the same as allowing them licence to create money out of nothing. That's down to the stupid laws we've allowed pass (obviously with their influence).

...hence my "via just about any means available".


Those laws can be cleaned up. Vague crap about 'well people are greedy you know, um greed is bad' isn't going to help.

Who labelled anything as "bad"? Self-interest ("greed" if you prefer) is neither worthy of celebration nor lamentation. It's a trait basic to living things, and bankers will act on it, as will anyone else. Understanding this might keep the influence of bankers on laws in some kind of perspective.

Lebell
25th November 10, 06:17 AM
Yet why don't we give the people who protest at the G8 more screen time then? Maybe the problem isn't the system or ideals that need to be replaced by communism and fascism but simply, globalization? The advent of the interwebz?

Maybe the problem isn't the system but parts of it, maybe the problem isn't the whole system but simply the media reporting it? IT seems like the media is no longer a useful tool in society anymore. Why didn't it inform us of these issues until shit hit the fan? Maybe we simply have irresponsible people managing our input/ouput of information?

Good point.
I'm all FOR globalisation, but a honest form.
The kind of globalisation we see now is the globalisation of big corporations breaking open foreign markets to them without those foreign farmers/producers being able to enter european and american markets.
Thats simply not fair.

Lebell
25th November 10, 06:21 AM
While the nature of american immigration is different with it's own share of problems, why are they not dealing with the same issues as Europe is? Mexicans or Islam, the states just seems to have smarter immigration. They save money getting mexican migrants to work for cheap, but objectivly, the whole 'mexican takeover' scare is really GOP fear mongering. Overall, id say they have been smart about it. Islamic immigration isn't as bad as in europe, but still large numbers, but with far far more integration and patriotism from american and canadian muslims.
It seems teh europian policy is to get a shit load of people, and just throwing them out into europian society, without them really MIXING and integrating.
Some will credit american melting pot philosophy as this better immigration, and to a degree this is true.
But canada is also multicultural like europe, with a huge foriegn population. We even had sikh terrorist attacks and the toronto 17/18 with muslims.

Yet we still don't seem to have the issues that europe faces, atleast not to the same extent.

So is teh solution really communism or national socialism? Or simply a better immigration policy?

Im trying to keep islamic colonisation..oh excuse me..immigration of culturally enriching people out of this particular discussion as they pose an entire threat on their own.

you cant compare canada with europe as we are way more stressed for space and packed on top of eachother.

Steve
25th November 10, 06:23 AM
Unnecessary.

Lebell is at least making an effort to voice his perspective on an issue we're all interested in. You might want to leave the futon wars for the other thread Steve.

I've waited for those that were interested, you can shut the fuck up now.

Lebell
25th November 10, 06:32 AM
thats no way to speak to a lady steve.
you're a very rude little pencilneck.
go to your room.

Steve
25th November 10, 06:43 AM
^ Steve here is a typical example of a systemslave: works a job in the margin, selling stuff, feels unsatisfied about it, but buys into the bluecollar bullcrap, so what does he do?
keeps going to his job, counts the hours til he's home where he is STEEV SUPREME MODERATOR OF SOCIOCIDE and where everybody loves him.
He gets to 'troll' and be 'witty' and has the idea he matters somehow.
The next day he does it all again.

What Steve doesnt know is, how little he gets for his work, how lousy his healthcare is, how lousy the quality of the food is that he can afford to buy, he doesnt realise that indirectly the elite's policy of 'fuck you got mine' directly influences his lifespan and health.

And you have said that your getting your living expenses for free were a way of laughing in my face...? Who is the user?

Cullion
25th November 10, 08:00 AM
...hence my "via just about any means available".



Who labelled anything as "bad"? Self-interest ("greed" if you prefer) is neither worthy of celebration nor lamentation. It's a trait basic to living things, and bankers will act on it, as will anyone else. Understanding this might keep the influence of bankers on laws in some kind of perspective.

No. It's a null hypothesis. Navel gazing. 'Oh I understand what motivates these people to harm my interests, therefore I don't need to act on it'.

It's the perspective of somebody so jaded that they've given up on society, Vieux.

Lebell
25th November 10, 08:44 AM
And you have said that your getting your living expenses for free were a way of laughing in my face...? Who is the user?

You really have trouble with understanding points, don't you?
First of all: how do I laugh in your face?
I don't know you, never seen you, you could drop dead or win the lottery for all i care.
Who is using what Steve?

Don't try to mimick O'reilly, even he is still somewhat smarter than you are.
;-)

AAAhmed46
25th November 10, 11:12 AM
Im trying to keep islamic colonisation..oh excuse me..immigration of culturally enriching people out of this particular discussion as they pose an entire threat on their own.

you cant compare canada with europe as we are way more stressed for space and packed on top of eachother.

Southern american states are having the same issue, but with a mexican colonization spin. Best way to keep people's attention away from government corruption/bullshit is to make them fear an 'other'. The 'other' is more relevent of a threat in europe than in mexicans, where you guys actually have legit concerns. But it's still being spun out of proportion. Europe will change, just not by much that fundamentally make it go backwards. Is the problem the people coming in, or the retards that basically opened a big door?
I know the sheer size of north america makes it a different comparison, but why does Australia have the same issues? They have an immigration policy far more europian in it's roots than Canada and America.
Maybe your leaders don't know how to filter the 'bad' cultural enrichment from the good?
I mean shit, because europe is so much SMALLER than north america would make it have a MORE strict immigration policy that north america, yet it doesn't. I find it strange.

Mexicans will change america even LESS, but it will still change...but not by much. Certainly won't make the country more backwards. Besides, it's the corporations looking for cheap labour that can be blamed here.

Social conservatives don't seem to have much to run on these days. And are running out of ways to get votes.

Kind of make sense? I think politicians created a monster due to a lack of common sense, and are now using it to garner votes.

AAAhmed46
25th November 10, 11:13 AM
Good point.
I'm all FOR globalisation, but a honest form.
The kind of globalisation we see now is the globalisation of big corporations breaking open foreign markets to them without those foreign farmers/producers being able to enter european and american markets.
Thats simply not fair.

Solve this problem, and a whole shit load of others will be fixed.

Fearless Ukemi
25th November 10, 11:25 AM
^ Steve here is a typical example of a systemslave: works a job in the margin, selling stuff, feels unsatisfied about it, but buys into the bluecollar bullcrap, so what does he do?
keeps going to his job, counts the hours til he's home where he is STEEV SUPREME MODERATOR OF SOCIOCIDE and where everybody loves him.
He gets to 'troll' and be 'witty' and has the idea he matters somehow.
The next day he does it all again.

What Steve doesnt know is, how little he gets for his work, how lousy his healthcare is, how lousy the quality of the food is that he can afford to buy, he doesnt realise that indirectly the elite's policy of 'fuck you got mine' directly influences his lifespan and health.

This is not meant to agree with Lebell with his rag on Steve, I'm just replying to the main idea of the post.

A lot of people are in this situation. Most of them know it, but don't care enough to change it or are content with it.

Others are just too busy making ends meet so they can provide for their families.

Cullion
25th November 10, 11:26 AM
Maybe your leaders don't know how to filter the 'bad' cultural enrichment from the good?
I mean shit, because europe is so much SMALLER than north america would make it have a MORE strict immigration policy that north america, yet it doesn't. I find it strange.

The barely concealed loathing that the white upper-middle class has for the white working and lower-middle classes is more intense in Europe.

AAAhmed46
25th November 10, 11:32 AM
The barely concealed loathing that the white upper-middle class has for the white working and lower-middle classes is more intense in Europe.

And they think BROWN working class is any better? LOL

Cullion
25th November 10, 11:42 AM
And they think BROWN working class is any better? LOL

At first they thought they'd be cheaper, now they're a bit scared of them and not sure what to do.

HappyOldGuy
25th November 10, 01:12 PM
Oh goody, another rant against the undefined "elite."

6997

Lebell, you're almost as old as I am. grow the fuck up.

AAAhmed46
25th November 10, 01:24 PM
At first they thought they'd be cheaper, now they're a bit scared of them and not sure what to do.

Yeah, i understand the nature of the 'fuck up'. And basically, cannot disagree with alot of fears(exaggerated as i think it may be)

That said.....

While i am not stupid enough to discount the role of a huge land mass making canadian/american integration of ethnic and religious minorities less harsh, certainly you have also noted how immigrants in north america tend to also be more educated, and simply, more likely to live beside a white neighbor compared to another huge landmass like australia?

Maybe instead of having an extreme neo-fascist reaction to immigration, the elite could simply just...be more picky with who they allow in the country from said ethnic/religious minority?

AAAhmed46
25th November 10, 01:34 PM
Fuck im repeating myself :(

Cullion
25th November 10, 01:39 PM
While i am not stupid enough to discount the role of a huge land mass making canadian/american integration of ethnic and religious minorities less harsh, certainly you have also noted how immigrants in north america tend to also be more educated, and simply, more likely to live beside a white neighbor compared to another huge landmass like australia?

Maybe instead of having an extreme neo-fascist reaction to immigration, the elite could simply just...be more picky with who they allow in the country from said ethnic/religious minority?

I agree that European problems are down to poor selectivity over immigration. The reaction of the higher social classes in anglophone countries like the UK and Australia is very different from that you'll see in France or Germany at present. The English speaking social elites would still tend to treat the idea you just expressed as a racist sentiment (if they thought a white person had said it), and still generally err on the side of basically uncontrolled immigration.

Robot Jesus
25th November 10, 01:50 PM
Perhaps it has something to do with the national character of the nations immigrated to? Russell Peters is a Canadian Comic who focuses on the immigrant experience; he has one set where he talks about how his dad thought if he had a BBQ people would think he’s Canadian. This sentiment is relatively true, if you grill meat you will fit in in Canada, better if you have a beer. Maybe attaining Teutonic or British status is more difficult, or is discouraged in some way? I don’t know, just putting the thought out there.

AAAhmed46
25th November 10, 01:57 PM
I agree that European problems are down to poor selectivity over immigration. The reaction of the higher social classes in anglophone countries like the UK and Australia is very different from that you'll see in France or Germany at present. The English speaking social elites would still tend to treat the idea you just expressed as a racist sentiment (if they thought a white person had said it), and still generally err on the side of basically uncontrolled immigration.

How can they say it's racist when neo-fascist ideas are getting mainstream? Seems like people are saying what i was saying but WORSE in common public discourse.

It can't be THAT bad with the upper-middle class in europe, if my opinion is mild compared to the mainstream.

HappyOldGuy
25th November 10, 02:12 PM
The US is and always has been ridiculously less "filtered" in terms of immigrants than any european nation. We have always taken the dross, and most of our current wave crossed over illegally anyways (tho many become legal after). Now that has meant that we have problems with the economic impact of these immigrants, especially on working class wages. That drives much of our current anger, tho alot of it comes from nastier emotions.

Your problems are that most of your countries still have an essentially racial notion of national identity, and less open/growing economies. Plus some really retarded social engineering, "hey, lets encourage assimilation by moving all the new immigrants into big ghetto's and come up with benefit programs that encourage social breakdown". Mind you, we had that retardation too, but not with our immigrants.

Cullion
25th November 10, 02:24 PM
How can they say it's racist when neo-fascist ideas are getting mainstream?

Are you talking about France, Germany or the UK?

In the UK it would hardly be a novelty for the upper-middle class to think that the widespread opinions of the (much larger) working class were barbaric. In terms of policy, there's no Burkha-banning or mass gypsy deportation going on here.

Cullion
25th November 10, 02:28 PM
The US is and always has been ridiculously less "filtered" in terms of immigrants than any european nation.

I don't think that's true any more, not when we're talking about people arriving from other continents anyway.



Your problems are that most of your countries still have an essentially racial notion of national identity

Not exactly true in the UK. The concept of 'Britishness' was more important. Besides which, we had non-white MPs in Parliament in the 19th century. You still had to fight over things like that as recently as the 1960s.


Plus some really retarded social engineering, "hey, lets encourage assimilation by moving all the new immigrants into big ghetto's

The French did that, we didn't really.

HappyOldGuy
25th November 10, 02:33 PM
Well, not when we're talking about people arriving from other continents anyway.

Actually yeah. Even leaving aside our past mass waves, even currently we have had huge illegal immigration from Asia. Plus stuff like the waves of immigrants from southeast asia after the vietname war etc. Now if you talk strictly about the middle east or muslim countries, it's true there.




Not exactly true in the UK. The concept of 'Britishness' was more important.

The French did that, we didn't really.

Yeah, I was painting with a pretty broad brush there. But the UK also has probably done a better job of assimilation because of it.

Vieux Normand
25th November 10, 02:43 PM
No. It's a null hypothesis. Navel gazing. 'Oh I understand what motivates these people to harm my interests, therefore I don't need to act on it'.

Mere observation does not a hypothesis make...null or otherwise. Putting bankers' motivations in perspective need not be a mere exercise in navel-gazing. Some might be so socialist-bastard as to use such observations as a basis for taking measures to legislate limitations to bankers' influence on laws--as full-of-loopholes futile as that would likely ultimately prove to be.


It's the perspective of somebody so jaded that they've given up on society, Vieux.

Point being?

AAAhmed46
25th November 10, 03:07 PM
Are you talking about France, Germany or the UK?

In the UK it would hardly be a novelty for the upper-middle class to think that the widespread opinions of the (much larger) working class were barbaric. In terms of policy, there's no Burkha-banning or mass gypsy deportation going on here.

Good point. I guess im lumping britain with other europian countries.

Which is funny, because in france, where only 2000 woman wear the burqa, they banned it, seems like an overreaction.

Vieux Normand
25th November 10, 03:12 PM
Perhaps it has something to do with the national character of the nations immigrated to? Russell Peters is a Canadian Comic who focuses on the immigrant experience; he has one set where he talks about how his dad thought if he had a BBQ people would think he’s Canadian. This sentiment is relatively true, if you grill meat you will fit in in Canada, better if you have a beer. Maybe attaining Teutonic or British status is more difficult, or is discouraged in some way? I don’t know, just putting the thought out there.

"Russell Peters".

Right.

Change name, gain "British status"?

Ummm...no.

So...what's his real name anyway?

Harpy
25th November 10, 03:37 PM
*edit*

Harpy
25th November 10, 03:41 PM
[QUOTE=Lilith;1612104]It's actually Russell Peters. He's Anglo-Indian.

Of course there are numerous converts to Christianity and even Islam who will change their family names ovenight.

Cullion
25th November 10, 04:00 PM
"Russell Peters".

Right.

Change name, gain "British status"?

Ummm...no.

So...what's his real name anyway?

There are loads of people with mixed British Isles and Indian ancestry. Many of them have British family names because they're descended from British men who took Indian wives when they were stationed there during the British Raj.

Robot Jesus
25th November 10, 04:01 PM
"Russell Peters".

Right.

Change name, gain "British status"?

Ummm...no.

So...what's his real name anyway?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell_Peters
that's his birth name, I don't see what point your trying to make.

I can't attest to all Canadians, but my issues with immigration are A: what is the economic effect, B: will they drink beer and watch hokey. Other then that wear whatever you want on your head, you’ll fit in fine.

Cullion
25th November 10, 04:07 PM
Actually yeah. Even leaving aside our past mass waves, even currently we have had huge illegal immigration from Asia. Plus stuff like the waves of immigrants from southeast asia after the vietname war etc. Now if you talk strictly about the middle east or muslim countries, it's true there.



Yeah, I was painting with a pretty broad brush there. But the UK also has probably done a better job of assimilation because of it.

It's probably true compared to France, I don't really know Germany to say. We also have a different ethnic mix of immigrants compared to France (fewer North African Muslims, more Caribbean black people and Indian Sikhs and Hindus, more Hong Kong Chinese) and many other continental European countries though, so maybe that has an effect.

Adouglasmhor
25th November 10, 05:32 PM
There are loads of people with mixed British Isles and Indian ancestry. Many of them have British family names because they're descended from British men who took Indian wives when they were stationed there during the British Raj.
I had a Lankan great grandmother called Janni Kennedy, I met her when I was a child she lived to around a 100 years old. Her husband my great Grandfather had been a shipping clerk when they met. Coastal Lankans are mostly mixed race anyway (Portuguese and Sri Lankan and Arab mixed) so I never realised she wasn't really white until years later.

Vieux Normand
25th November 10, 07:36 PM
...that's his birth name, I don't see what point your trying to make.

Right. So he's Russell Peters, does his standup with the usual Canadian nasal-speak, and so on. What, then, is all this shit one reads in Canada about his schtick having so much to do with diversity-this or immigrant-that?

Lebell
26th November 10, 05:36 AM
The US is and always has been ridiculously less "filtered" in terms of immigrants than any european nation. We have always taken the dross, and most of our current wave crossed over illegally anyways (tho many become legal after). Now that has meant that we have problems with the economic impact of these immigrants, especially on working class wages. That drives much of our current anger, tho alot of it comes from nastier emotions.

Your problems are that most of your countries still have an essentially racial notion of national identity, and less open/growing economies. Plus some really retarded social engineering, "hey, lets encourage assimilation by moving all the new immigrants into big ghetto's and come up with benefit programs that encourage social breakdown". Mind you, we had that retardation too, but not with our immigrants.

lol!
yeah cos we all know america doesnt have racism at all and anyone can persue the american dream, right?
fuck off.

MEGA JESUS-SAMA
26th November 10, 05:37 AM
◕ ‿ ◕

Lebell
26th November 10, 05:38 AM
yeah, what mjs said!

MEGA JESUS-SAMA
26th November 10, 05:45 AM
   ____∧_∧  / ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄
 ~' ___(,,゚Д゚)< LOVE AND PEACE
   UU    U U   \________

Lebell
26th November 10, 08:32 AM
high faiv.

MEGA JESUS-SAMA
26th November 10, 08:35 AM
   人     
  (__)    
  (__)   
 ( __ )    
 ( ・∀・) <Put 'er there!
 (つ   つ
 | | |     
 (__)_)

Vieux Normand
26th November 10, 10:22 AM
Most countries still have an essentially racial notion of national identity.

Fixed.

This isn't only the norm in Europe. Go to many countries worldwide and you'll see the same thing: belonging isn't just a matter of documentation (real or fake). One belongs to the tribe to which one is born. This is not the sum-total of identity, but is seen as a foundation of identity, underlying individual characteristics. Such views are hardy, and can survive nanny-state efforts at their elimination: the end of the Soviet Bloc saw blood-and-soil ethnic resurgences in a number of former workers' paradises.

Cullion
26th November 10, 10:27 AM
I strongly suspect a lot of Americans define themselves in racial terms too.

Lebell
26th November 10, 01:44 PM
shut up, honky.

Robot Jesus
26th November 10, 03:34 PM
Right. So he's Russell Peters, does his standup with the usual Canadian nasal-speak, and so on. What, then, is all this shit one reads in Canada about his schtick having so much to do with diversity-this or immigrant-that?
it's all he ever talks about?

HappyOldGuy
27th November 10, 12:01 AM
I strongly suspect a lot of Americans define themselves in racial terms too.

As individuals sure, but not in terms of national identity. Remember our two biggest racial splits have been with the country since the very beginning. It takes a serious dumbfuck to look at a native and think, "they're not real americans."

Cullion
27th November 10, 06:53 AM
As individuals sure, but not in terms of national identity. Remember our two biggest racial splits have been with the country since the very beginning. It takes a serious dumbfuck to look at a native and think, "they're not real americans."

I think there are a lot of dumbfucks in America. I think a lot of white Americans think of themselves as 'real Americans'.

Lebell
27th November 10, 08:02 AM
yeah the real americans are like..sarah palin and stuff.
gunslinging triggerhappy y'all come back now y'hear folk.
at least thats what our media tells us.

Adouglasmhor
28th November 10, 03:50 AM
I have met Americans serving in your forces who thought Scotland was a Warsaw pact country, seriously and not just one or two and not just grunts, airmen as well.

Lebell
28th November 10, 04:52 AM
see?
they totally deserved 911.

Adouglasmhor
28th November 10, 05:48 AM
see?
they totally deserved 911.

I agree they were a shit band and America deserved them on repeat.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rttwVPfWGX0

Lebell
28th November 10, 06:33 AM
exactly.

we hez dutch band who screwed up epic r&b song, we deserve terror too:
ftaWXbkt6OU

AAAhmed46
30th November 10, 06:37 PM
Talked to some british muslims.

Not only is the community segregated from the rest of british society, but they are segregated WITHIN the community as well.

If i travel to a mosque america or canada, the racial ratio may favour one over the other, but still it is common to notice many arabs and somalians praying in a predominantly pakistani mosque. It's pretty mixed.

But in britian, apparently the somalians rarely will venture into an 'arab' mosque, and a pakistani won't go into a somalian one.

Heard similar things from folk in australia as well.

Why is there sub-segregation in a community that is segregating it self?

Lebell
1st December 10, 05:46 AM
Cos muslims love to hate.

Ajamil
1st December 10, 11:47 AM
Why is there sub-segregation in a community that is segregating it self?West Si-eeeed!! *throws bad mockery of gang sign*

AAAhmed46
1st December 10, 02:09 PM
But not so here in north america though.

I know i make it look like a muslim paradise here in canada/u.s....when we have our douchebaggy actions in this part of the world.

But is it the TYPE of people we bring into canada and america compared to Europe or HOW we bring people in?

I guess the question is, is it how the SELECTION of immigrants that cause/prevent problems or how they are handled once they are landed in the country that makes north america and Europe different?

AAAhmed46
1st December 10, 02:11 PM
Or in food terms since im hongary:

Is it how you pick the meat, or how you cook the meet? How you pick the Massaman or how you cook it?

Vieux Normand
1st December 10, 02:14 PM
Not only is the community segregated from the rest of british society, but they are segregated WITHIN the community as well.

"Keep 'em separated" is usually a response to incidents of anger and/or a wish to deploy what is seen as the only means of averting such incidents in the future.

Do you feel, Ahmed, that Islam puts much stock in the teaching of emotional self-control?

If it doesn't, there's your problem right there.

If it attempts to and isn't succeeding, then that must be addressed.

Lack of emotional self-control can be seen as a sign of inferiority. To avoid giving such an impression, a community, or set of communities, had best teach that particular quality, and do so effectively.

KO'd N DOA
1st December 10, 03:15 PM
Or in food terms since im hongary:

Is it how you pick the meat, or how you cook the meet? How you pick the Massaman or how you cook it?

Glad you brought that up. Why is my food increasigly marketed as meeting both K or H? Isn't that a food version of an oxymoron? Why should the Chinese/Italian/Indo Canadian Population be forced to eat religious food?

Lebell
1st December 10, 04:15 PM
also: halal food equals animal cruelty.
go read the requirements in slaughter procedures that are needed to make it halal.

Cullion
1st December 10, 05:19 PM
But not so here in north america though.

I know i make it look like a muslim paradise here in canada/u.s....when we have our douchebaggy actions in this part of the world.

But is it the TYPE of people we bring into canada and america compared to Europe or HOW we bring people in?

I guess the question is, is it how the SELECTION of immigrants that cause/prevent problems or how they are handled once they are landed in the country that makes north america and Europe different?

I believe it's the selection that's a problem. British Muslims don't face any more discrimination in employment, educational opportunities or in social situations with non-Muslims than they would in America.

We do, however, seem to have higher proportion of minimally educated people with little or no grasp the English language amongst our muslim immigrants in the UK. Part of this is probably to do with the way our welfare system works. AIUI it's somewhat easier to live on welfare without even making a token effort to get a job in the UK than it is in most of North America.

I've worked and socialised with highly educated muslims from Turkish, middle-Eastern and Pakistani backgrounds who speak good English, they didn't seem to be segregated at all. They held skilled and well paid jobs, went to university and socialised with non-muslims. Some of them drank alcohol and/or ate haram food at social events with lots of non-muslims, and some of them would always politely refuse it. No problem.

On the other hand, there are muslims who speak little or no English, feel entitled to refuse any job which involves mixing with the opposite sex (even though they knowingly relocated to a non-muslim culture where the sexes aren't segregated), and go batshit insane when one of their female relatives speaks to any non-muslim males (whilst cruising in carloads to pick up extremely young white 'girlfriends' and smoking weed themselves). If these guys have jobs, they tend to work in family businesses only with other muslims. Well over half of them end up marrying their first cousins.

Guess which group is 'segregated' ?

We also have an extremely politically correct and weak law enforcement system which the young rebellious types soon learn to treat with contempt.

AAAhmed46
1st December 10, 05:37 PM
also: halal food equals animal cruelty.
go read the requirements in slaughter procedures that are needed to make it halal.

Death has to be quick. And knocking it the fuck out with a gun isn't exactly frowned upon. Seen it done many times with cows.

AAAhmed46
1st December 10, 05:44 PM
"Keep 'em separated" is usually a response to incidents of anger and/or a wish to deploy what is seen as the only means of averting such incidents in the future.

Do you feel, Ahmed, that Islam puts much stock in the teaching of emotional self-control?

If it doesn't, there's your problem right there.

If it attempts to and isn't succeeding, then that must be addressed.

Lack of emotional self-control can be seen as a sign of inferiority. To avoid giving such an impression, a community, or set of communities, had best teach that particular quality, and do so effectively.

About 70 for emotional control/30 not putting stock in it.

Islam puts great emphasis on emotional self control, particularly pride/arrogance, lust, and anger.

There certainly is a heavy inferiority complex within the muslim community. For a long time now, a big failure of emotional restraint.

I think a lack of critical thinking is also a problem with the community as well.

AAAhmed46
1st December 10, 05:49 PM
I believe it's the selection that's a problem. British Muslims don't face any more discrimination in employment, educational opportunities or in social situations with non-Muslims than they would in America.

We do, however, seem to have higher proportion of minimally educated people with little or no grasp the English language amongst our muslim immigrants in the UK. Part of this is probably to do with the way our welfare system works. AIUI it's somewhat easier to live on welfare without even making a token effort to get a job in the UK than it is in most of North America.

I've worked and socialised with highly educated muslims from Turkish, middle-Eastern and Pakistani backgrounds who speak good English, they didn't seem to be segregated at all. They held skilled and well paid jobs, went to university and socialised with non-muslims. Some of them drank alcohol and/or ate haram food at social events with lots of non-muslims, and some of them would always politely refuse it. No problem.

On the other hand, there are muslims who speak little or no English, feel entitled to refuse any job which involves mixing with the opposite sex (even though they knowingly relocated to a non-muslim culture where the sexes aren't segregated), and go batshit insane when one of their female relatives speaks to any non-muslim males (whilst cruising in carloads to pick up extremely young white 'girlfriends' and smoking weed themselves). If these guys have jobs, they tend to work in family businesses only with other muslims. Well over half of them end up marrying their first cousins.

Guess which group is 'segregated' ?

We also have an extremely politically correct and weak law enforcement system which the young rebellious types soon learn to treat with contempt.

In all my life here in canada, ive only met a few folk who don't speak english, or atleast interact to some degree with the rest of canadian society.

Ajamil
1st December 10, 05:55 PM
Could it be that the proximity to Europe allows a poorer section of the society to immigrate? You can drive a few hundred miles to get from the Middle East to Europe. You have to fly to the US and Canada.

Cullion
1st December 10, 06:04 PM
I think that it's more to do with immigration policy in the US and Canada. Flights across the atlantic aren't that expensive any more.

On the 'drive a few hundred miles' thing..

Arabs in the UK are generally speaking wealthy, well educated and often absolutely fucking delighted to be able to have a beer without the religion police busting them.

Turks are generally nominal muslims who are extremely secular. i.e. not at all bothered about islamic dress codes, gender segregation or alcohol.

Most of the 'segregated' muslims do not originate from the near or middle east. They (or their parents) are from further away, i.e. Pakistan, Bangladesh and North Africa.

AAAhmed46
1st December 10, 06:09 PM
Also driving from the middle east to europe has alot of crap in the way, especailly considering that were talking mostly pakistanis and south asians. Your somalians and africans have a way to go for a drive.

I think it's more immigration policy.

Vieux Normand
1st December 10, 08:48 PM
About 70 for emotional control/30 not putting stock in it.

Islam puts great emphasis on emotional self control, particularly pride/arrogance, lust, and anger.

There certainly is a heavy inferiority complex within the muslim community. For a long time now, a big failure of emotional restraint.

I think a lack of critical thinking is also a problem with the community as well.

Perhaps if they learned not to be idolators of a set of dearly-held (by themselves) but easily-mocked (by others) abstractions?

AAAhmed46
1st December 10, 11:31 PM
Perhaps if they learned not to be idolators of a set of dearly-held (by themselves) but easily-mocked (by others) abstractions?


I think the way some muslims treat mohammed is idolatry. I think they basically missed the whole fucking point, them and the four mathabs.

I doubt they would react to violently to mockery if they *gasped* saw the possibility of a fluid tradition?

AAAhmed46
1st December 10, 11:32 PM
Perhaps if they learned not to be idolators of a set of dearly-held (by themselves) but easily-mocked (by others) abstractions?


I think the way some muslims treat mohammed is idolatry. I think they basically missed the whole fucking point, them and the four mathabs.

I doubt they would react to violently to mockery if they *gasped* saw the possibility of a fluid tradition?

AAAhmed46
1st December 10, 11:41 PM
...but these beliefs persist in north america as well. Yet the reactions are rarely as bad, and they are more likely to shrug away from such behavior.

So once again, it probably goes back to what me and cullion are talking about.

Lebell
2nd December 10, 05:13 AM
I think the way some muslims treat mohammed is idolatry. I think they basically missed the whole fucking point, them and the four mathabs.

I doubt they would react to violently to mockery if they *gasped* saw the possibility of a fluid tradition?

Some muslims say you go to paradise when you read the quran's arabic texts phonetically, eventhough you do not know what it means.
Thats pretty fucking savage ideas right there.
Not unlike early medieval catholic church ideas.

AAAhmed46
2nd December 10, 10:22 AM
Agree generally(though i would they would have to get 'effort points' for devoting the time it takes to do that)

Though you have that here in north america as well within the mosques, yet STILL we have intermixing.

So far, cullions explanation seems the best so far.

Arhetton
4th December 10, 10:20 AM
Lebell - So you hate wealthy people and immigrants.

The society you would create would be one of the poorest places on earth.

Modern elites aren't fucking happy anyway, and don't have all the power. They are just as miserable as the rest of us. Most of the billionaires in the world are twisted and emotionally fucked up. People who inherit enormous wealth are also tortured by guilt and the fear of losing what they have and are stuck trying to preserve it out of fear and paranoia.

Of course there is an 'old boys' network and a whole bunch of corrupt shit in politics and lobbying and business but that corruption is everywhere including in 'socialist paradises'. Nothing has produced as much wealth and prosperity than the current system. What wealth have you produced recently for others that gives you the right to criticize the open and dynamic societies that exist around the world?

Society collectively has far more buying & spending power and influence than the elite. The richest guy in the states has been gates and he's got 54 Billion. Domestic assets of the nation are estimated at $131 trillion. New York city alone is worth around 16 Trillion - how much of the city could gates buy if he spent his entire fortune? A couple of burrows? Probably not even that. Probably not even Manhattan island. The total market cap of all listed companies on the NYSE is $12 T (a fraction of the total value of the actual economy). So stock markets are not a measure of the total financial system or health of the nation.

The USA could eliminate the public debt overnight by handing over a single large famous city to a foreign country and still be tens of trillions wealthier than the next few nations combined.

Arguments about taxes on the rich are essentially questions about whether the aggregate investment and accumulation of domestic assets - 1 Trillion in taxes is 1 Trillion that will not be invested privately in business - and whether or not the government or private sector is better placed to make the investment decisions. Business may wish to expand capital and install more plant equipment, expand telecommunications networks, or provide more services. Likewise the government may wish to spend the money on fixed infrastructure and public projects, or could create a bunch of services jobs.

A lot of people actually create wealth instead of simply taking it from others. And a healthy banking system is the supporting engine for growth and wealth creation (not simply a transfer of wealth). It has a legitimate function in a modern society. So do the stock markets, and the currency exchanges.

The system is not perfect but its a hell of a lot better than whatever you proposing lebell.

And don't even get me started on immigration.

If worldwide people were able to immigrate in the numbers people wish to, GDP would probably quadruple and the wealth creation would be fucking incredible.

- it reduces burden on the poor countries they leave
- the workers are more productive in the affluent countries they move to
- immigrants often have an attitude where they are willing to work hard including for low pay to make their way in a new country (and if they've taken the risk to move, itself a huge risk, its quite likely they are willing to work for the rewards in the new country too - they have an 'immigrant spirit', not lazy welfare slackers) this of course threatens middle class white xenophobes who have too much pride to work in such jobs anyway
- globally, immigrants send more money back home to developing nations than all of global aid combined (and it is specific, it does not go to dictators or corrupt government officials, they are paychecks that go directly to families).

The world is on the verge of a giant leap forward in wealth creation and prosperity that has never been seen before (this century will easily be as remarkable as the last). There will also be some potentially disastrous conflicts or environmental consequences but overall I think there has been a grossly miscalculated pessimistic view of the future.

Unfortunately I think we all know that we are stuck with religion for the long term, but that doesn't give you the right to hide your racism under another banner with your ignorant rants.

If that is the kind of closed minded thinking that Europeans are engaging in these days then I feel sorry for all the lessons you have forgotten from history.

Arhetton
4th December 10, 10:25 AM
I did find the following amusing


We are all a bunch of monkeys fighting eachother over crumbs, we are being manipulated to look down on immigrants, people on wellfare, homeless etc, we are being taught to be winners in a game we cant win, because we do not have the same acces to the game as the elite has.
Give us stupid tv shows, create government jobs that arent essential at all, a lot of people are on welfare but dont even realise it, because when you give a pointless job a title and a name, its a real job, right?

that was fairly spot on

Lebell
4th December 10, 10:52 AM
Arhetton,you seem to miss one important principle.
how according to you does one create wealth out of nothing?
only thing i can think of is prostitution.

Ajamil
4th December 10, 02:30 PM
Arhetton,you seem to miss one important principle.
how according to you does one create wealth out of nothing?
only thing i can think of is prostitution.
And art, and craft, and anything that adds perceived value. Pine branches have little value, I could go snap off a few from the tree outside, but I saw wreaths made of pine branches and twigs selling for $60, and people will buy less for more. Where did that wealth come from?

Cullion
4th December 10, 03:29 PM
Hey Arhetton, how's the fighter-pilot training going ?

Arhetton
4th December 10, 04:47 PM
Arhetton,you seem to miss one important principle.
how according to you does one create wealth out of nothing?
only thing i can think of is prostitution.

It's not me who has missed the principle of how the financial system creates wealth lebell - its you.

Arhetton
4th December 10, 04:48 PM
its the only coherant thing lebell has ever written, and it just reveals his racism and paranoia more.

Lebell I haven't missed a thing - you're the one who doesn't understand the value of a financial system.

AAAhmed46
4th December 10, 07:59 PM
Don't feel bad Arhetton. It took me a long time before i figured out Lebell was trolling.

Though his trolljitsu is often mixed with some real beliefs, so it wouldn't be so stupid to try rebutting it.

That said, don't do what i did for such a long time.

AAAhmed46
4th December 10, 07:59 PM
Don't feel bad Arhetton. It took me a long time before i figured out Lebell was trolling.

Though his trolljitsu is often mixed with some real beliefs, so it wouldn't be so stupid to try rebutting it.

That said, don't do what i did for such a long time.

Vieux Normand
4th December 10, 08:13 PM
The system is not perfect but its a hell of a lot better than whatever you proposing lebell.

Arhetton, I have Lebell on "ignore" and, therefore, cannot read what it posts. However, it has established a consistent enough a pattern to allow me to guess what it posted that set you off.

The reason it set you off is that you don't appear to recognise the difference between "proposing" and "trolling". Lebell advocates nothing coherent: rather, it goes fishing for exactly the sort of thing you spent so much time and effort writing as a rebuttal. These are moments in your life that you'll never get back, and you spent them writing a serious response to.......Lebell.

Congratulations. Now go peel a baby's head with a chisel.

MEGA JESUS-SAMA
4th December 10, 08:18 PM
i have lebell on ignore = i am a humorless cunt

Lebell
5th December 10, 06:32 AM
It's not me who has missed the principle of how the financial system creates wealth lebell - its you.

No, it's really you.
rehashing what they taught you at school does not equal understanding.
you see te raw materials for industry etc have to come from somewhere and the dposits are finite.
we as the western world take all the raw materials and maske it into products we sell.
(im really trying to make you see this)
so wealth is a finite thing, you cant magically add or diminish wealth.
sure, on a low level you can have trends, hypes and what not, but im taking bou tthe real big pictur ehere.

im sorry all of you guys react like a bunch of medieval peasants when confronted with my intellect.
maybe you should read more instead of going ' dur dur..to the stake with him'

Lebell
5th December 10, 06:38 AM
i have lebell on ignore = i am a humorless cunt

it's like a fashionable thing to do nowadays: ' im too intelligent for my own good and i wont have the scaundral Lebell wasting my valuable posting time..talleehoo,old cap, im off to check if the negros on my plantation are still working.'

Cullion
5th December 10, 08:34 AM
No, it's really you.
rehashing what they taught you at school does not equal understanding.
you see te raw materials for industry etc have to come from somewhere and the dposits are finite.
we as the western world take all the raw materials and maske it into products we sell.
(im really trying to make you see this)
so wealth is a finite thing, you cant magically add or diminish wealth.
sure, on a low level you can have trends, hypes and what not, but im taking bou tthe real big pictur ehere.

im sorry all of you guys react like a bunch of medieval peasants when confronted with my intellect.
maybe you should read more instead of going ' dur dur..to the stake with him'

Wealth isn't something that can only be moved or transformed. It really can be created. It's not a zero sum game.

Arhetton
5th December 10, 08:43 AM
This is getting off point.

Disconnected points:

If you want to be down to earth and talk about wealth creation as the extraction of raw resources and manufacture of products then there is a lot to be said there, however if you think that the services and other functions available in modern society are not a manifestation of wealth you're pretty crazy. Tangible and intangible goods.

For example - metals are finite yet infinitely recyclable, and often incumbent materials (like copper telephone lines) are being replaced (with fiber cables). Knowledge about how to make new and better materials is always improving. Steel is already a mature metal market where recycling the steel is cheaper than extracting it from nature. In a few decades composite materials stronger than steel will be commonplace.

Look at the electronics market where devices made today have thousands of times more computational power and are several factors smaller than their predecessors. High tech refined sophisticated goods made out of sand... where eventually their value on a weight basis is greater than that of gold.

Industries like forestry have been sustainable in North America for years.

In a few decades the biological revolution will probably be massively underway with improvements to health and quality of life - how do you factor that into your 'tangibles' philosophy lebell?

Energy is infinite on our planet we simply have not learned to harvest and distribute it yet. Fossil fuels are too convenient and cheap to use.

The earth has fucking massive resources. It's incredible. We can barely mine into the crust.

And in the long term, the resources in our own solar system far outweigh what we have access to here on earth. There so much metal in the asteroid belt it defies common sense.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Robert_Malthus#Reactions_to_his_ideas

Read : other dissenters

Vieux Normand
5th December 10, 10:28 AM
Double post.

Vieux Normand
5th December 10, 10:31 AM
i have lebell on ignore = i am a humorless cunt

Don't be so hard on yourself. Others have lebell on ignore and they're aren't.

Lebell
5th December 10, 11:23 AM
This is getting off point.

Disconnected points:

If you want to be down to earth and talk about wealth creation as the extraction of raw resources and manufacture of products then there is a lot to be said there, however if you think that the services and other functions available in modern society are not a manifestation of wealth you're pretty crazy. Tangible and intangible goods.

For example - metals are finite yet infinitely recyclable, and often incumbent materials (like copper telephone lines) are being replaced (with fiber cables). Knowledge about how to make new and better materials is always improving. Steel is already a mature metal market where recycling the steel is cheaper than extracting it from nature. In a few decades composite materials stronger than steel will be commonplace.

Look at the electronics market where devices made today have thousands of times more computational power and are several factors smaller than their predecessors. High tech refined sophisticated goods made out of sand... where eventually their value on a weight basis is greater than that of gold.

Industries like forestry have been sustainable in North America for years.

In a few decades the biological revolution will probably be massively underway with improvements to health and quality of life - how do you factor that into your 'tangibles' philosophy lebell?

Energy is infinite on our planet we simply have not learned to harvest and distribute it yet. Fossil fuels are too convenient and cheap to use.

The earth has fucking massive resources. It's incredible. We can barely mine into the crust.

And in the long term, the resources in our own solar system far outweigh what we have access to here on earth. There so much metal in the asteroid belt it defies common sense.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Robert_Malthus#Reactions_to_his_ideas

Read : other dissenters

so basically you're saying: you are wrong cos star trek?
okay..

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
6th December 10, 06:39 AM
Nahh I tyhink he's saying: you wrong cuz dickhead

Lebell
6th December 10, 06:56 AM
still, thats flawed reasoning.
try to keep your emotions outta this ladies.

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
6th December 10, 08:08 AM
still, thats flawed reasoning.
try to keep your emotions outta this ladies.

I think you will find that my reasoning is flawless, it follows this well known structure:

1) lebellend makes trolltastic racist statement

2) reaction ensues

3) lebellened gets insulted by somebody

4) I tell lebellend to fuck off

Fuck off lebell

Lebell
6th December 10, 08:24 AM
I think you will find that my reasoning is flawless, it follows this well known structure:

1) lebellend makes trolltastic racist statement

2) reaction ensues

3) lebellened gets insulted by somebody

4) I tell lebellend to fuck off

Fuck off lebell

AAH! zhe little jew thinks he finally found a schtick that works?
fail!
Just saying fuck off makes you come across like a retard.
But by all means:

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
6th December 10, 08:45 AM
Fuck off

Lebell
6th December 10, 10:45 AM
hm..im not feeling it.

HappyOldGuy
6th December 10, 10:50 AM
Dude, at this point in your career I'm not sure you would feel a freight train back there.

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
6th December 10, 11:07 AM
hm..im not feeling it.

i dont care...fuck off

Lebell
6th December 10, 12:04 PM
yeah..i probably shouldnt wind max up that much.
im sure he's a nice kid IRL.

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
6th December 10, 12:17 PM
yeah..i probably shouldnt wind max up that much.
im sure he's a nice kid IRL.

Mehhh

Fuck off

Cullion
6th December 10, 01:22 PM
Lebell being part Jewish makes this funnier.

Lebell
6th December 10, 02:08 PM
no way.
im circumsized, not jewish.

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
6th December 10, 02:21 PM
same thing...oh and fuck off round head

Lebell
6th December 10, 02:27 PM
hehehe max reminds me of when my 3yr old cousin discovered the word poo.
the more you'd say he shouldnt say that the more he'd laugh and scream POOOO! POOOOO! POOOO!
its often best just to let em continue til they get tired of it.

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
6th December 10, 02:30 PM
hehehe max reminds me of when my 3yr old cousin discovered the word poo.
the more you'd say he shouldnt say that the more he'd laugh and scream POOOO! POOOOO! POOOO!
its often best just to let em continue til they get tired of it.

Fuck off

Cullion
6th December 10, 02:33 PM
hehehe max reminds me of when my 3yr old cousin discovered the word poo.
the more you'd say he shouldnt say that the more he'd laugh and scream POOOO! POOOOO! POOOO!
its often best just to let em continue til they get tired of it.

Who'd have thought there were kids like that in your family.

Lebell
6th December 10, 02:41 PM
Who'd have thought there were kids like that in your family.

Each family has one.
If you think your family is the exception, you ARE that one.

MEGA JESUS-SAMA
6th December 10, 07:49 PM
Don't be so hard on yourself. Others have lebell on ignore and they're aren't.

Lebell is an artist. We've already scouted a calligrapher to document his posts in a medium truly worthy of their brilliance. It's important that his work be preserved for future generations.

Vieux Normand
6th December 10, 08:14 PM
Lebell is an artist. We've already scouted a calligrapher to document his posts in a medium truly worthy of their brilliance. It's important that his work be preserved for future generations.

Using two-ply will automatically ensure an extra copy for posterity.

Lebell
7th December 10, 04:12 AM
Lebell is an artist. We've already scouted a calligrapher to document his posts in a medium truly worthy of their brilliance. It's important that his work be preserved for future generations.

Then you don't get my art.
My whole existance, including my posts is an artform not unlike the tibetan mandalas: beautifully crafted but finite.
True art is not meant to survive the ages because a true artist knows that his art should be rediscovered again and again throughout the centuries so that the art keeps it's magic and powerfull message.

MEGA JESUS-SAMA
7th December 10, 04:21 AM
Too bad.

Lebell
7th December 10, 05:50 AM
That's not too bad, my little backhumping friend, it's how it should be.
You can tell people all about your revelations, but it's more powerfull to let them discover it for theirselves.

NoBowie
16th June 14, 10:35 AM
LOL: Greenpeace International last year lost €3.8m (£3m) of donations through speculation on currency markets. http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2014/jun/16/greenpeace-loses-3m-pounds-currency-speculation


WE ARE ALL TAINTED!!!! THE BANKERS I TELL YOU!

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
17th June 14, 06:59 AM
Idiots!

Feryk
18th June 14, 11:09 AM
LOL: Greenpeace International last year lost €3.8m (£3m) of donations through speculation on currency markets. http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2014/jun/16/greenpeace-loses-3m-pounds-currency-speculation


WE ARE ALL TAINTED!!!! THE BANKERS I TELL YOU!

You do realize that Greenpeace is run by bankers and lawyers, right?

NoBowie
18th June 14, 11:32 AM
You do realize that Greenpeace is run by bankers and lawyers, right?
I do. I don't think hippies do.

Feryk
18th June 14, 04:40 PM
There are a ton of lefty, environmental orgs that exploit their 'believers' for profit. Greenpeace is only one of them.

NoBowie
18th June 14, 04:57 PM
Most lefty, environmental orgs exploit their 'believers' for profit or power. Greenpeace is only one of them.

NoBowie
5th July 14, 10:45 PM
Fuck Yeah! Spy shit going down!!!!

Germany arrests alleged double agent accused of spying on Berlin’s NSA inquiry for the U.S.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/07/04/germany-arrests-alleged-double-agent-accused-of-spying-on-berlins-nsa-inquiry-for-the-u-s/