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Shotgun Christening
7th August 10, 12:00 PM
Yet some Afghanis still aid these terrorists. Next time someone says that we arent at war with Radical Muslims Im going to send them this article.
They bomb their own civilian population and kill those tryin g to help them in their backwards ass shit hole "country".
All in the name of some mythical being.



KABUL, Afghanistan – Ten members of a medical team, including six Americans, were shot and killed by militants as they were returning from providing eye treatment and other health care in remote villages in northern Afghanistan, a spokesman for the team said Saturday.

Dirk Frans, director of the International Assistance Mission, said one German, one Briton and two Afghans also were part of the team that made the three-week trip to Nuristan province. They drove to the province, left their vehicles and hiked for hours with pack horses over mountainous terrain to reach the Parun valley in the province's northwest.

Taliban spokesman Zabiullah Mujahid told The Associated Press that they killed the foreigners because they were "spying for the Americans" and "preaching Christianity."
Frans said the International Assistance Mission, the longest serving nongovernmental organization operating in Afghanistan, is registered as a nonprofit Christian organization but does not proselytize.
"This tragedy negatively impacts our ability to continue serving the Afghan people as IAM has been doing since 1966," the charity said in a statement. "We hope it will not stop our work that benefits over a quarter of a million Afghans each year."

The team, made up of doctors, nurses and logistics personnel, was attacked as it was returning to Kabul after the two-week mission in Nuristan, Frans said. They had decided to travel through Badakhshan province to return to the capital because they thought it would be the safest route, Frans said.

Among the dead was team leader Tom Little, an optometrist from Delmar, New York, who has been working in Afghanistan for more than 30 years, Frans said. Another relief organization, Bridge Afghanistan, said on its website that the group included one of its members, Dr. Karen Woo of London.

Little, who oversaw eye hospitals in Kabul and two other major cities as well as small clinics in three smaller towns, had been expelled by the Taliban government in August 2001 after the arrest of eight Christian aid workers — two Americans and six Germans — for allegedly trying to convert Afghans to Christianity. He returned to live in Afghanistan after the Taliban government was toppled in November 2001 by U.S.-backed forces.

Frans said he lost contact with Little on Wednesday. On Friday, a third Afghan member of the team, who survived the attack, called to report the killings. A fourth Afghan member of the team was not killed because he took a different route home because he had family in Jalalabad, Frans said.

According to Frans, two members of the team worked for IAM, two were former IAM workers and four others were affiliated with other organizations, which he did not disclose. He said five of the Americans were men and one was a woman. The Briton and German also were women.

Gen. Agha Noor Kemtuz, police chief in Badakhshan province, said the victims, who had been shot, were found Friday next to three bullet-riddled four-wheel drive vehicles in Kuran Wa Munjan district. He said villagers had warned the team that the area was dangerous, but the foreigners said they were doctors and weren't afraid. He said local police said about 10 gunmen robbed them and killed them one by one.

He said the two dead Afghans were interpreters from Bamiyan and Panjshir provinces. The third Afghan who survived "told me he was shouting and reciting the holy Quran and saying 'I am Muslim. Don't kill me,'" Kemtuz said.

Frans told The Associated Press that he was skeptical the Taliban were responsible and that the team had studied security conditions carefully before proceeding with the mission. The team trekked from village to village during the two weeks, treating about 400 people for eye disorders and other illnesses.

"We are a humanitarian organization. We had no security people. We had no armed guards. We had no weapons," he said.

In a blog posting last month, Woo said the expedition would include an eye doctor, a dental surgeon "as well as me as the general practioner."

"The trek will not be easy; it will take three weeks and be done on foot and with packhorses — no vehicles can access the mountainous terrain," she wrote. "The expedition will require a lot of physical and mental resolve and will not be without risk but ultimately, I believe that the provision of medical treatment is of fundamental importance and that the effort is worth it in order to assist those that need it most."

Elsewhere, five Afghans were killed and 13 were wounded Saturday when a bomb struck a police vehicle in the Nahri-Saraj district of Helmand province in the south, the Interior Ministry said. Four of the dead were police, but all but one of the wounded were civilians. In Gereshk district, one Afghan policeman and a civilian were killed and 16 other people were wounded Saturday morning when a bomb exploded in a market, said Kamaluddin Khan, local security chief.

The NATO-led coalition also reported the arrests late Friday of two suspected insurgents in Kandahar province and of "several" suspected members of the Haqqani network, a Taliban faction with close ties to al-Qaida, in the eastern province of Khost.

The coalition also said two NATO troops were killed during an explosion Saturday in southern Afghanistan. NATO did not release any details of the incident or the nationalities of the troops.

HappyOldGuy
7th August 10, 12:02 PM
So a bunch of illegals were stealing medical jobs from hard working afghanis and the afghans dealt with it?

Shotgun Christening
7th August 10, 12:05 PM
So a bunch of illegals were stealing medical jobs from hard working afghanis and the afghans dealt with it?

m sure they were in the country legally. One had been there since 1966.

HappyOldGuy
7th August 10, 12:06 PM
m sure they were in the country legally. One had been there since 1966.

You should reread that section.

Cullion
7th August 10, 12:33 PM
Wait, you're saying 'we should be in Afghanistan because they hate it so much it makes them kill us and each other'?

lant3rn
7th August 10, 12:33 PM
So a bunch of illegals were stealing medical jobs from hard working afghanis and the afghans dealt with it?

Really?


How many afghanis were able to get a proper education and training in the medical feild in 60's, 70's and 80's.

Their services were probably needed badly.

HappyOldGuy
7th August 10, 12:37 PM
Really?


How many afghanis were able to get a proper education and training in the medical feild in 60's, 70's and 80's.

Their services were probably needed badly.

They clearly disagree. Don't they have the right to control their own borders? or is that only Arizona?

lant3rn
7th August 10, 12:40 PM
They clearly disagree. Don't they have the right to control their own borders? or is that only Arizona?

They were aloud to work there obviously while the taliban was in charge.

Now they are not in charge... so they no longer represent the nations will, right?

Cullion
7th August 10, 12:43 PM
The US has tried to westernise Afghanistan before, didn't work then, won't work now.

Lashkar Gar is the dusty remnants of a modern American-style suburb built the last time around.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/adamcurtis/littleamerica.jpg

This site is usually a fairly cranky, suspect source, but I highly recommend this particular article to you :-

http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article14411.html

jvjim
7th August 10, 01:34 PM
The elimination of the Taliban is a key component of America's continued sovereignty.

Cullion
7th August 10, 01:44 PM
I see what you did there.

ICY
7th August 10, 02:09 PM
Fuck Aghanistan.

Vieux Normand
7th August 10, 02:47 PM
Fuck Aghanistan.

At least airlift the girls and women out of there before turning it over to the taliban.

Yeah, I know--but it had to be said...

Hedgehogey
8th August 10, 10:59 PM
Is this also why you fight there? (http://www.rawa.org/rawa/2009/05/07/lets-rise-against-the-war-crimes-of-us-and-its-fundamentalist-lackeys.html)

HappyOldGuy
8th August 10, 11:13 PM
Not so much a reason as a perk.

SFGOON
8th August 10, 11:35 PM
Well bro - I gotta say that's a pretty horrible pic link you posted.

That particular little girl doesn't have the injuries consistent with a bomb blast though. It appears to me that she had oil of vitriol (or sulphuric acid, or dihydrogen sulfate, whatever) thrown in her face.

This tactic is consistent with radical Taliban sympathizers who dislike girls being educated. She was probably attacked on her way to school.

Here, let's look at some bomb wounds, shall we? I'm going to spoiler this because it's fucking sick...



For this first one, note the degree of mangling of the tissue. In a conventional bomb blast, the concussion and/or shrapnel has a much further range than the heat. It makes little sense the little victim displayed would be burned without suffering additional shrapnel injuries.

http://www.qbtpl.net/images/Bomb3.jpg

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2004-12/21/xin_281201210917562317435.jpg

Illustrating the previous point is a little boy who was injured in a bomb blast. Note the shrapnel injuries, as well as the tissue trauma from the impact. Also, note the lack of burns.
http://cryptome.org/info/csh/pict122.jpg


So, we've established that with bombs, where there are burns, there HAS to be shrapnel injuries, yes? Good. Now on to chemical burns. This is what those wound/scars look like;

http://eugenecho.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/6a00d83451b05569e2012875bdc0c8970c-900wi1.jpg

http://eugenecho.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/6a00d83451b05569e20120a6bbe4c7970b-900wi.jpg

http://news.sky.com/sky-news/content/StaticFile/jpg/2010/May/Week2/15629164.jpg

Rather more familliar, yes? I'd suggest you vet your sources more carefully. Amazing that the Taliban are using their own victims to further their cause, but not amazing that of all the people in the world, Hedgehogey the chump is one of the people who fell for it.

Hidden Ronin
9th August 10, 04:07 AM
If they ambushed a squad of US/ Royal Marines, I'd be pissed, but it'd be war.
They robbed and executed doctors.
Fuck the cowards, and thier degenerate sky wizard, thier is no defending what they did. No ones that good a troll.

Shotgun Christening
9th August 10, 05:17 AM
Is this also why you fight there? (http://www.rawa.org/rawa/2009/05/07/lets-rise-against-the-war-crimes-of-us-and-its-fundamentalist-lackeys.html)


I still dont understand why you continue to live in a country that you seem to hate so much.
Go ahead and move down to Venezuala and enjoy the good life. Or better yet, go fight with your revolutionary heroes against an oppresive regime so they can win and then they can become the oppresive regime.

Youre just as big an idiot here as you are on BS.


They were aloud to work there obviously while the taliban was in charge.

Now they are not in charge... so they no longer represent the nations will, right?

Dont let him drag you into his troll.

Shotgun Christening
9th August 10, 05:19 AM
If they ambushed a squad of US/ Royal Marines, I'd be pissed, but it'd be war.
They robbed and executed doctors.
Fuck the cowards, and thier degenerate sky wizard, thier is no defending what they did. No ones that good a troll.

This was my point. Some of us in their blind hatred for other people cant see this and choose to point fingers of blame at their own country.

Cullion
9th August 10, 06:04 AM
It still doesn't make sense as a reason to have troops there. Yes, they're savages. No, we can't fix them.

Lebell
9th August 10, 06:10 AM
This is what you get for being a 'sorryheart'.
War is not designed to be fought in a humane way with codes and rules.
I understand there are starry eyed people out there who think they can make a difference by giving free medical attention and even expect gratitude from the locals.
Most of those people do not understand the mindset of these people.

If you want to control Afghanistan (lolwhy?) you need to display savage tactics.
A partisan blws himself up near one of your checkpoints?
select 10 people from his family or village and execute them.

Devellop chemicals to lay waste to their cropfields, make sure you have the monopoly on food.
Civilians can get their free food after registering their fingerprints, have their pictures taken and are issued id-cards.

Have black ops that blow up certain mosques or assasinate tribal leaders to keep em divided.

No more camereacrews or journalists.



I promise you, you give me a brigade of men i can handpick, make em highly mobile, and there wont be anymore taliban in less then three years.

Shotgun Christening
9th August 10, 06:27 AM
It still doesn't make sense as a reason to have troops there. Yes, they're savages. No, we can't fix them.


The Taliban treat their own people this way. I guess you are against women being able to vote, own property, wear what they wish, and keep their limbs.

We arent there to put down an oppresive regime we are there to combat terrorism and kill it at its source. Other things (like Saudi Arabia) need to be handled before we can do this but this is a step.

I think we have screwed the pooch on this one. Lebell has the basic idea IMO.

Cullion
9th August 10, 07:11 AM
The Taliban treat their own people this way.

Yes I know that.



I guess you are against women being able to vote, own property, wear what they wish, and keep their limbs.

It is not within your power to change this and that is not the real aim of US policy in the middle east. You can expend a lot of american lives trying, but you will fail.



We arent there to put down an oppresive regime we are there to combat terrorism and kill it at its source.

Terrorism is an activity, not a country. It does not have a fixed geographic source. It is simply what happens when people hate you. Terrorism can be, and often is, carried out from a flat in London, or Detroit. Afghanistan and Iraq aren't the 'source' of terrorism. Hatred of US foreign policy is the source of terrorism.

The idea that it will stop happening if you just tighten down the street patrols in a middle eastern country is delusional, no matter what the Neoconservative media tells you. It's an absurd proposition.

Neoconservatives don't give a shit about people like you. They make snide jokes about people like you in private. Truth.

Never, ever forget that.

Neildo
9th August 10, 07:16 AM
nuke it from orbit. or, just use lots of MOABs so all those yummy minerals under kabul wont be radioactive.

bob
9th August 10, 07:21 AM
Who is this 'we' you speak of?

Truculent Sheep
9th August 10, 08:35 AM
There are many reasons why we will not leave Afghanistan:

i. It will turn into a massive narco-state, flooding the West with smack.
ii. It's full of precious minerals the Chinese will gladly have if we don't secure them.
iii. It's a strategic strong point.
iv. If Afghanistan falls, Pakistan will become even more wobbly.
v. India might get involved if we go, and this will probably not go down well in Karachi.
vi. It will become a terrorist haven again, spawning instability across the region.
vii. For all the above reasons, we'll be back there in 20 years' time if we do withdraw, so we may as well stay put.

One other thing to bear in mind before we buy into the 'Afghans Are Savages' narrative. Try to be a developing country in a perpetual state of war for the last few decades and see how well your modern institutions hold up. The backwoods banjo-playing Pashtuns and the cunts in the ISI haven't helped much, nor did the Soviet invasion and subsequent CIA skullduggery.

Some food for thought:

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2010/05/27/once_upon_a_time_in_afghanistan

Cullion
9th August 10, 08:44 AM
There are many reasons why we will not leave Afghanistan:

i. It will turn into a massive narco-state, flooding the West with smack.

That's already happened. It's gotten worse since we invaded. Opium production is way up.



ii. It's full of precious minerals the Chinese will gladly have if we don't secure them.

The chinese already have the rights to most of them. We're securing chinese mineral rights at the moment.



iii. It's a strategic strong point.
iv. If Afghanistan falls, Pakistan will become even more wobbly.

Whilst holding my nose, I agree with this bit.



v. India might get involved if we go, and this will probably not go down well in Karachi.

Nah, they won't.



vi. It will become a terrorist haven again, spawning instability across the region.

Well, it is now.



vii. For all the above reasons, we'll be back there in 20 years' time if we do withdraw, so we may as well stay put.

It's like poking a stick into a wasps nest.



One other thing to bear in mind before we buy into the 'Afghans Are Savages' narrative. Try to be a developing country in a perpetual state of war for the last few decades and see how well your modern institutions hold up. The backwoods banjo-playing Pashtuns and the cunts in the ISI haven't helped much, nor did the Soviet invasion and subsequent CIA skullduggery.

Yes. Best to leave them alone. They hate having foreigners try and organise things for them.



http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2010/05/27/once_upon_a_time_in_afghanistan

This is essentially a precis of the earlier article I linked further back in the thread, but it leaves out all the history of how and why the previous American attempt at turning it into a big southern Californian suburb with bigger moustaches fell apart horribly last time.

Truculent Sheep
9th August 10, 08:58 AM
Cullion, you're just repeating yourself now.

Cullion
9th August 10, 09:06 AM
Well, apart from informing you that the Chinese already have the rights to minerals you hadn't acknowledged they already had, pointing out that our presence coincides with increased heroin production, I suppose so.

Did you read the article I posted earlier ?

Truculent Sheep
9th August 10, 09:11 AM
Well, apart from informing you that the Chinese already have the rights to minerals you hadn't acknowledged they already had

Don't put words in my mouth, and please - stop repeating yourself or trying to spin my words to your advantage. It shows weakness on your part.

Cullion
9th August 10, 09:19 AM
I'm not going to be trolled.

Truculent Sheep
9th August 10, 09:21 AM
Said the troll, without a speck of irony.

Cullion
9th August 10, 09:22 AM
nuh-uh. not biting.

Truculent Sheep
9th August 10, 09:24 AM
Don't play the victim.

Neildo
9th August 10, 09:34 AM
wvQjDvnPpCk

Shotgun Christening
9th August 10, 10:13 AM
Yes I know that.

You dont seem to.



It is not within your power to change this and that is not the real aim of US policy in the middle east. You can expend a lot of american lives trying, but you will fail.

I agree, but was making the point that the Taliban isnt anyones friend. They are an oppressor.



Terrorism is an activity, not a country.

I know, but we have tracked a great deal of it to Afghanistan training camps.


Hatred of US foreign policy is the source of terrorism.

So nobody has ever attacked the UK?



The idea that it will stop happening if you just tighten down the street patrols in a middle eastern country is delusional, no matter what the Neoconservative media tells you. It's an absurd proposition.

I dont recall saying that.



Neoconservatives don't give a shit about people like you. They make snide jokes about people like you in private. Truth.

Not sure what your point here is.

Cullion
9th August 10, 10:22 AM
You dont seem to.

Oh, I very much do.



I agree, but was making the point that the Taliban isnt anyones friend. They are an oppressor.

So are the ruling regimes of lots of countries, including people our countries still sell weapons to. War is not in your interests here.



I know, but we have tracked a great deal of it to Afghanistan training camps.

They just move when you succeed in patrolling the area. Afghanistan has more of it's population with miiltary training and a grudge against the west than it has for decades.



So nobody has ever attacked the UK?

Yes they have, and the threat hasn't been reduced by our middle-east policy, it's increased.



I dont recall saying that.

It's the implication of your proposed policy. You started off saying 'this is why we are at war'. Well, it's dumb reason to be at war.



Not sure what your point here is.

That 'we need to be in Afghanistan to liberate their women/protect ourselves from terrorism' is silly propaganda designed by people who secretly think it's funny that you fall for it.

Shotgun Christening
9th August 10, 10:36 AM
Oh, I very much do.

Sure doesnt seem like it.



So are the ruling regimes of lots of countries, including people our countries still sell weapons to. War is not in your interests here.

War is very rarely in the interest of the people.



They just move when you succeed in patrolling the area. Afghanistan has more of it's population with miiltary training and a grudge against the west than it has for decades.

Source please.



Yes they have, and the threat hasn't been reduced by our middle-east policy, it's increased.

Conjecture



It's the implication of your proposed policy. You started off saying 'this is why we are at war'. Well, it's dumb reason to be at war.

I didnt propose any policy. I simply stated why we are at war. The Taliban is a brutal terrorist regime. They feel that violence against the helpless is the answer. Is the thinking of such people as the Taliban not why we are at war? Do they not feel that terrorism is a viable tactic? Are we not at war against terrorism?



That 'we need to be in Afghanistan to liberate their women/protect ourselves from terrorism' is silly propaganda designed by people who secretly think it's funny that you fall for it.

I didnt say that we needed to be there for that. I was pointing out the Talibans many faults and beliefs. You are putting words in my mouth to make yourself feel better because you have no real argument here.

Spend less time thinking you know what people are "implying" you arent as smart as you think you are.

resolve
9th August 10, 10:59 AM
The main reason for Afghanistan war in the first place was 9/11. We wanted Osama's head on a stake. We said we would go to war with any country that aided and abetted terrorists. We wanted Osama, Afghanistan said 'no'. We invaded.

Things got a little more than hazy afterwards.

Cullion
9th August 10, 10:59 AM
Sure doesnt seem like it.

I'm aware of how the Taliban treat people, I just don't consider it a good reason to send our military there. The world's full of crazies. Sometimes they just get crazier if you poke them with a stick, and that's what we're achieving here.



Source please.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/HD13Df01.html

People are lining up to take a pot-shot at the foreign oppressor. This is like 'Red Dawn' from the perspective of a lot of those people.



Conjecture

It's also the published opinion of your CIA and our intelligence services.



I didnt propose any policy. I simply stated why we are at war.

But this emphatically isn't the real reason you're in Afghanistan.



The Taliban is a brutal terrorist regime. They feel that violence against the helpless is the answer.

That goes for half the governments with seats in the UN. We aren't really aren't in Afghanistan to send girls to school and stop men beating their wives, nor are we protecting our own citizens from terrorism.



Is the thinking of such people as the Taliban not why we are at war? Do they not feel that terrorism is a viable tactic? Are we not at war against terrorism?

The whole 'war against terror' is an absurd idea. It's like the war on drugs with a bigger budget and even worse consequences for our populations.



I didnt say that we needed to be there for that. I was pointing out the Talibans many faults and beliefs. You are putting words in my mouth to make yourself feel better because you have no real argument here.

Spend less time thinking you know what people are "implying" you arent as smart as you think you are.

I know what the propaganda is designed to make people feel, and you're repeating it with all the emotional subtext intact. All the humanitarian concerns are simply a form of misdirection learned from the PR failures of the wars of the 20th century.

HappyOldGuy
9th August 10, 08:23 PM
This is what you get for being a 'sorryheart'.
War is not designed to be fought in a humane way with codes and rules.
I understand there are starry eyed people out there who think they can make a difference by giving free medical attention and even expect gratitude from the locals.
Most of those people do not understand the mindset of these people.

If you want to control Afghanistan (lolwhy?) you need to display savage tactics.
A partisan blws himself up near one of your checkpoints?
select 10 people from his family or village and execute them.

Devellop chemicals to lay waste to their cropfields, make sure you have the monopoly on food.
Civilians can get their free food after registering their fingerprints, have their pictures taken and are issued id-cards.

Have black ops that blow up certain mosques or assasinate tribal leaders to keep em divided.

No more camereacrews or journalists.

Worked out well for the Russians.


Lebell has the basic idea IMO.

This is how you know you are wrong.

SFGOON
9th August 10, 08:50 PM
If I may.

I have a very close friend who returned from his tour in Afghanistan a week ago Monday. He is a fully tabbed Green Beret with highly specialized combat training, having completed several courses with a high washout rate for even SOCOM soldiers.

He returned bitching about how most of the work he had been tasked to complete was "your job" (Civil Affairs, nation building and humantarian aid,) rather than the kind of function he was trained for, the kind you normally read about in Tom Clancy novels.

While combat operations do still occur, they are primarily defensive in nature, though they are preemptive. The bulk of the work being done in Afghanistan is economic - basically giving these people a source of income that is not tied to terrorism or the drug trade.

Of course, the vast lithium ore reserves recently found there will no doubt help. If the Chinese are interested in doing the work to mine it - so be it. They are rather more culturally forward than the Taliban. Additionally, an industrial mining industry is more sustainable and makes far more sense than trying to turn Kandahar into Indiana.

If the US wanted to strangle away the supply of mujahadeen fighters from the Taliban to secure Afghanistan, all they would have to do is compel India to invade Pakistani Kashmir through secret diplomatic channels. The mujahadeen would relocate there to combat the Hindu invaders leaving the US to operate more comfortably in Afghanistan.

Also, that Asia Times article you linked is from 2006. The strategy there has shifted vastly since then. Particularly, the highly touted Baitullah Mehsud has since been killed.

bob
9th August 10, 08:56 PM
Being resource rich has sure helped the fuck out of Africa.

SFGOON
9th August 10, 09:01 PM
These things take time.

Neildo
9th August 10, 09:08 PM
Being resource rich has sure helped the fuck out of Africa.

kinda the same deal in the 'stan. bunch of backwards-ass warlords fucking it up for everybody.

Kein Haar
9th August 10, 11:29 PM
Most of Africa is still really far from anything else. It's full of malaria and angry hippos etc.

Afghanistan at least borders something resembling civilization.

Neildo
9th August 10, 11:40 PM
kyrgyzstan?

HappyOldGuy
9th August 10, 11:41 PM
Most of Africa is still really far from anything else. It's full of malaria and angry hippos etc.

Afghanistan at least borders something resembling civilization.

By which you mean Pakistan or Iran?

You certainly can't mean Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, or Tajikistan.

Cullion
10th August 10, 03:13 AM
If the US wanted to strangle away the supply of mujahadeen fighters from the Taliban to secure Afghanistan, all they would have to do is compel India to invade Pakistani Kashmir through secret diplomatic channels. The mujahadeen would relocate there to combat the Hindu invaders leaving the US to operate more comfortably in Afghanistan.

This sounds a little bit like that Fox News bullet point: "We're in the middle east so they're too busy to attack us here!"

Angry young muslim men aren't in that short supply.



Also, that Asia Times article you linked is from 2006. The strategy there has shifted vastly since then.

We've started paying the Taliban not to attack and announced to the locals that we intend to leave soon. It's only going to get worse.

Lebell
10th August 10, 03:50 AM
Worked out well for the Russians.



This is how you know you are wrong.

The russians had a half assed army.
During the cold war the russian military capacity was horribly overrated as it later turned out.
NATO forces have the technology carry out my tactics, just not the stomach to see little chidren die of starvation.

it's quite simple, afghanistan has only fertile farmlands in so many places, the valleys, control them and you gain massive influence.

at first everybody will be outraged, there will be an temporarely increase in attacks, but i promise you it will die off real quick.
Where do the taleebs get their ammo, supplies etc from?
They forage amongst civilians, and they buy weaponry from pakistans lawless regions.

So you have a couple of bombingraids, control the food producing zones and have one or two brigades relentlessly hunting them down.
hammer and anvil.

military tactics as it is now is just deeply retarded: ' yeah uhm, we gonna put soldiers in outposts cos ehm..it will help win the hearts and minds..so we build this school or mosque, and then the bad guys burn it down, but ehm it dont matter you see, cos we just build a new one, tey'll run outta matches soon, and its not like we're building those buildings with our own money, haha, no thats just taxpayers money!'

the people there are not westeners, they will not reason, they will only listen to the strongest faction.
first you invaded afghanistan forcefully, and now you wanna play their best friend?!
mixed signals.
lay down the law!

Cullion
10th August 10, 04:07 AM
And then what ?

Harpy
10th August 10, 04:24 AM
Goon - was that your friend's first tour in Afghanistan? Nice to hear a current first-hand perspective as the few I know who served there got out about 2 years
ago.

We need a thread on what indicators we're using
to determine if the last 9 years of the 'War on Terror' has actually been worth the investment.

Shotgun Christening
10th August 10, 05:13 AM
If I may.

I have a very close friend who returned from his tour in Afghanistan a week ago Monday. He is a fully tabbed Green Beret with highly specialized combat training, having completed several courses with a high washout rate for even SOCOM soldiers.

He returned bitching about how most of the work he had been tasked to complete was "your job" (Civil Affairs, nation building and humantarian aid,) rather than the kind of function he was trained for, the kind you normally read about in Tom Clancy novels.

While combat operations do still occur, they are primarily defensive in nature, though they are preemptive. The bulk of the work being done in Afghanistan is economic - basically giving these people a source of income that is not tied to terrorism or the drug trade.

Of course, the vast lithium ore reserves recently found there will no doubt help. If the Chinese are interested in doing the work to mine it - so be it. They are rather more culturally forward than the Taliban. Additionally, an industrial mining industry is more sustainable and makes far more sense than trying to turn Kandahar into Indiana.

If the US wanted to strangle away the supply of mujahadeen fighters from the Taliban to secure Afghanistan, all they would have to do is compel India to invade Pakistani Kashmir through secret diplomatic channels. The mujahadeen would relocate there to combat the Hindu invaders leaving the US to operate more comfortably in Afghanistan.

Also, that Asia Times article you linked is from 2006. The strategy there has shifted vastly since then. Particularly, the highly touted Baitullah Mehsud has since been killed.


If I may....I have trained with and train with Special Operations people (dont read a great deal into this, I have an RP position) and they all say the same thing.
The Afghani people are corrupt. They are so dirt ass poor that anything resembling wealth or a better life will win their (albeit temporary) loyalty.
One out of every 50 Afghani "Commandos" are likely to turn and shoot you during an operation (I have worked with a client that this actually happened to). If we (the NATO forces) can set up a stable industry like mining it will go a long way over there.
However, they are a different people and corruption is ingrained (it has been a way of life for so long) in them. After we leave, things will go back to politics as usual for them. We are going to leave them with disposable income. Something that can be usurped by relgious warlords and used against us.
Less terrorist harboring if they realise that all their resources are uselss when you are sanctioned....maybe. They owe us nothing.

Cullion
10th August 10, 05:20 AM
They already had a mining industry, that had been there for thousands of years.

It's going to end up reverting to a patchwork of tribes with China using simple non-ideological trade and diplomacy to get a slice of the mineral wealth. They won't care whether or not Afghans beat their wives or let their girls go to school.

Shotgun Christening
10th August 10, 05:24 AM
They already had a mining industry, that had been there for thousands of years.

Not on the scale that is coming.



It's going to end up reverting to a patchwork of tribes with China using simple non-ideological trade and diplomacy to get a slice of the mineral wealth. They won't care whether or not Afghans beat their wives or let their girls go to school.


Yeah, I think I heard this before..


After we leave, things will go back to politics as usual for them

Cullion
10th August 10, 05:26 AM
Not on the scale that is coming.

It will be the Chinese that build it.

Shotgun Christening
10th August 10, 05:29 AM
It will be the Chinese that build it.

whats your point?

Cullion
10th August 10, 05:34 AM
That people are being tricked into supporting a war with shocking imagery of crying children and injured little girls and incoherent nonsense like 'the war on terror' that's got lots of our service people killed and cost a fortune, and the end result is just going to be an anti-western Afghanistan ripe for Chinese-controlled mineral extraction.

The thread is called 'this is why we fight'. Well, if people thought a bit more carefully about rather than letting their heart-strings be tugged on, then perhaps we'd all be better off.


I guess you are against women being able to vote, own property, wear what they wish, and keep their limbs.

This suggest that you really think the military is capable of recreating people's cultures for them. It's not. Not within any of the civilised standards of behaviour you'd expect of it.

You actually care about how women are treated in Afghanistan that much that you're prepared to see Americans die for it, spend hundreds of billions ?

If you want to transform a culture like that, expect to stay for decades. Expect an American death toll in the tens of thousands. Teach your troops to forget anything resembling the Judeo-Christian ethics most of them were raised with, and instead teach them to behave like Roman legionnaires.

Good luck integrating them back into American society when their tour is up.

And whilst you're doing that, have a careful think about why you choose that one particular dusty, backward little country to transform with imperial grace, and not any of the other nutty dictatorships sitting at the UN table.

Meanwhile, China shrugs and acquires the mineral rights,

Truculent Sheep
10th August 10, 06:59 AM
That people are being tricked into supporting a war with shocking imagery of crying children and injured little girls and incoherent nonsense like 'the war on terror' that's got lots of our service people killed and cost a fortune, and the end result is just going to be an anti-western Afghanistan ripe for Chinese-controlled mineral extraction.

The thread is called 'this is why we fight'. Well, if people thought a bit more carefully about rather than letting their heart-strings be tugged on, then perhaps we'd all be better off...

I don't think you're being particularly just to the other side of the argument here, Cullion. I'd argue that the anti-war arguments can be every bit as kneejerk and au doctrinaire too. And there are sound moral, political and practical reasons to carry on fighting - as long as it's effectively fought, which is the real issue here.

Lebell
10th August 10, 07:03 AM
the scary thing is, the more i see of the world the more i realised the nazi's were right on their foreign policies.

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
10th August 10, 07:07 AM
the scary thing is, the more i see of the world the more i realised the nazi's were right on their foreign policies.

That's not scarey, its stupid!

Cullion
10th August 10, 07:07 AM
I can only think of one reason to have troops stationed in the area that I support, and that is that I don't like the idea of the Taliban getting control of Pakistan's nuclear weapons. Whether it's within our means to police the world by stationing substantial numbers of troops near every regime we consider nutty that's about to acquire some form of nuclear capability is a very sketchy question. Unfortunately I think it's simply unaffordable at the moment.

I certainly don't believe we can transform their society and make them send their girls to school this way.

Lebell
10th August 10, 11:22 AM
That's not scarey, its stupid!

yes, because nato is doing sucha awesome job, right?
its not like if the nazi's would have gone in they would get bugged down because they cared about some mosques or cultural insensitivities...
silly nazis..

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
10th August 10, 11:25 AM
didnt say NATO were doing anything, just that you're stupid, which is kinda self evident anyway so was probably a waste of time pointing it out.

Lebell
10th August 10, 11:40 AM
i bet the SS would wtfpwn the taliban.

xQ4ldl12W0I

lant3rn
10th August 10, 11:46 AM
Just like they wtfpwn your grandmother.

Lebell
10th August 10, 11:51 AM
no they didnt.

EuropIan
10th August 10, 12:42 PM
feltmadras

Hedgehogey
10th August 10, 01:22 PM
<Long, genocidal screed that makes A Modest Proposal look like a Chompsky book>


These people are not westerners, they are not reasonable

Hedgehogey
10th August 10, 01:26 PM
Amazing that the Taliban are using their own victims to further their cause, but not amazing that of all the people in the world, Hedgehogey the chump is one of the people who fell for it.

You think everything's a front for something. You thought the EZLN was a front for Sicilian/Salvadorean (?) drug runners and now you think RAWA is a front for the Taliban. You are one big piece of paranoid, ill informed nutcake.

Which is typical of the binary 'if you're not with us, you're with the terrorists' thinking of so many supporters of wars of aggression, but still hilariously wrongheaded.

Hedgehogey
10th August 10, 01:28 PM
I still dont understand why you continue to live in a country that you seem to hate so much.


Look at that, a trolling tactic made famous by Bill O Reilly. I can't believe you typed that sentence without a hint of irony.

Shotgun Christening
10th August 10, 01:39 PM
Look at that, a trolling tactic made famous by Bill O Reilly. I can't believe you typed that sentence without a hint of irony.

I cant believe you were able to spell all those words correctly. Now both of us are shocked.

You still didnt answer the question. Most likely because you are one of the "talkers" that want everyone to think they are all cool and anti-establishment but you really spend your time drinking Starbucks and living off your parents.

Stop spitting out Al Jazeeras propoganda and actually say something


You think everything's a front for something. You thought the EZLN was a front for Sicilian/Salvadorean (?) drug runners and now you think RAWA is a front for the Taliban. You are one big piece of paranoid, ill informed nutcake.


So enlighten us. Instead of telling someone how wrong they are, SHOW them how they are wrong.

*edit* My point is, please post your thoughts instead of just insults. Whats the point of having a discussion if everyone has the same idea?

EuropIan
10th August 10, 01:45 PM
http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/thumb/8/81/Trolling101.gif/687px-Trolling101.gif

Lebell
10th August 10, 02:10 PM
I'm a little boy with no experience in life, unhindered by any experience, logic or knowledge i preach teh truth to people, because....i'm just right!

finally we agree on something. ;-)

Hedgehogey
10th August 10, 04:50 PM
I cant believe you were able to spell all those words correctly. Now both of us are shocked.

You still didnt answer the question. Most likely because you are one of the "talkers" that want everyone to think they are all cool and anti-establishment but you really spend your time drinking Starbucks and living off your parents.

Disregarding your attempt to paint me as the Black Panther guy from Forrest Gump (this has to be, no exxageration, the 30th time you've done this), your logic train has huge gaps in it.

Examine this sequence:

Me: [posts an article condemning US occupation of Afghanistan]

You: If you hate living in America so much, why don't you go move to Cuba, you terrorist loving cockpavilion?

Me: ???

You: Prove it!



Stop spitting out Al Jazeeras propoganda and actually say something

Alright, i'll take a cue from you and start dropping Fox News propaganda.



So enlighten us. Instead of telling someone how wrong they are, SHOW them how they are wrong.

That's not how burden of proof goes. It's not my obligation to prove that SFGOON's tin foil hat conspiracy theories about the EZLN being a front for Mafia Drug Runners, RAWA being a front for the Taliban or John Lennon having been replaced by a reptilian Jew extraterrestrial during the making of the White Album. It's his obligation to prove them true.

Shotgun Christening
10th August 10, 04:53 PM
Disregarding your attempt to paint me as the Black Panther guy from Forrest Gump (this has to be, no exxageration, the 30th time you've done this), your logic train has huge gaps in it.

Examine this sequence:

Me: [posts an article condemning US occupation of Afghanistan]

You: If you hate living in America so much, why don't you go move to Cuba, you terrorist loving cockpavilion?

Me: ???

You: Prove it!



Alright, i'll take a cue from you and start dropping Fox News propaganda.



That's not how burden of proof goes. It's not my obligation to prove that SFGOON's tin foil hat conspiracy theories about the EZLN being a front for Mafia Drug Runners, RAWA being a front for the Taliban or John Lennon having been replaced by a reptilian Jew extraterrestrial during the making of the White Album. It's his obligation to prove them true.


tl;dr

*ignore*

Hedgehogey
10th August 10, 04:54 PM
finally we agree on something. ;-)

Yeah but dude, you subscribe to Clash of Civilizations theory. Your posts are so morally bankrupt i'm surprised you're not posting them on youtube as comments to a TRUTH ABOUT ISLAM video.

Edit: Actually you still don't get the joke. Let me kill the frog for you.

The hilarious thing is you outlining a very careful plan (no doubt you have the ear of the Pentagon on this) to commit crimes against humanity while talking about how uncivilized and barbaric Afghans are.

Shotgun Christening
10th August 10, 04:54 PM
finally we agree on something. ;-)

Damn my Dutch Crush

HappyOldGuy
10th August 10, 04:54 PM
That's not how burden of proof goes. It's not my obligation to prove that SFGOON's tin foil hat conspiracy theories about the EZLN being a front for Mafia Drug Runners, RAWA being a front for the Taliban or John Lennon having been replaced by a reptilian Jew extraterrestrial during the making of the White Album. It's his obligation to prove them true.

He made a pretty compelling argument about the nature of the injuries that you are doing your best to dance around. Till you address it you pretty much look like a little kid going "lalalalalalala I can't hear you."

Shotgun Christening
10th August 10, 04:57 PM
He made a pretty compelling argument about the nature of the injuries that you are doing your best to dance around. Till you address it you pretty much look like a little kid going "lalalalalalala I can't hear you."


Thats his standard M.O. and was my point too. He didnt let me down, I knew he couldnt respond.

Cullion
10th August 10, 05:05 PM
This is silly now. There's no need to pretend that the Taliban aren't bad people in order to think occupying Afghanistan to try and fix their culture is still a bad idea.

Shotgun Christening
10th August 10, 05:11 PM
think occupying Afghanistan to try and fix their culture is still a bad idea.

Nobody thinks that

HappyOldGuy
10th August 10, 05:14 PM
Other than Oldman and Lebell (and Hedgie in reverse) we all know that there is no victory.

The question is what do we absolutely need to accomplish to get out. And how to do it.

To my mind our absolute vital security needs are keeping pakistan stable and keeping afghanistan from becoming a safe haven for attacks against the west.

Walking out pretty much guarantees that we fail at both.

Cullion
10th August 10, 05:16 PM
Nobody thinks that

Well, you used the example of how the Taliban kill aid workers treat women like dirt etc.. as a reason for 'why we are at war'.

I don't think those things are reasons to be at war, and I don't believe those are the real reasons why our political elites sent our militaries there.

I think they went for geopolitical and economic reasons they don't want to discuss with us, and they've gotten so caught up in the emotive propaganda they've used to sell these invasions to us (and the troops), that it renders our countries incapable of doing what they want us to do.

The history of the British Empire is somewhat instructive in this regard (no, I'm not going on a rant about British culture being superior to American, far from it, I'm about to skim over why we failed as a world power).

When our colonial adventures were basically simple raids where we said 'nation X has wealth. it is in our national interest to have some of that by any means. Everybody in favour say 'aye!' it actually worked just fine. Sorta like Vikings with muskets and accounting legers.

It mostly started falling apart when we began trying to civilise people as well. That's just too expensive to do by force, essentially.

If you want to get wealthy dealing with other countries without acting like 'the bad guys', you're always better off sticking to trade.

If you want to just get rich the old-school way, you're better off forgetting all this judeo-Christian ethical nonsense and just behaving like high-tech Vikings (which is basically what Lebell's suggesting. He's much smarter than most people credit him with. HoG: Lebell is absolutely aware that there's no victory here, because he just gave an example of what would be necessary and he knows we aren't culturally capable of it).

The kind of propaganda you cited early in the thread is basically very similar to the kind of thing the late Victorian/Edwardian Brits used to believe whilst still maintaining an Empire (they were still somewhat more candid, because they didn't have the psychic checks and balances we do that make us worry about words like 'racism' and 'imperialism').

What we have are a ruling class who want to behave like more organised, high-tech Vikings, but who have soldiers and voting populations who've mostly been firmly raised to believe that's wrong, even when dealing with brown people, so they can't really order our militaries to do what's necessary to just take the prizes.

The ruling classes in question tend to be hopelessly naive about this until it's too late because so few of them have active military experience these days.

Shotgun Christening
10th August 10, 05:17 PM
Other than Oldman and Lebell (and Hedgie in reverse) we all know that there is no victory.




I have said many times that this is a no win situation and we should come home. Lebell is making the obvious point that unless we are ready to do some terrible things ( a point i have made before on other threads) there can be no victory. I thought that you were smart enough to get that.....shrug

HappyOldGuy
10th August 10, 05:20 PM
Well, you used the example of how the Taliban kill aid workers treat women like dirt etc.. as a reason for 'why we are at war'.

I don't think those things are reasons to be at war.
Hmm, the only issue I have raised in this thread is illegal immigrats stealing jobs from hard working afghanis.

And Oldman, Lebels point is bullshit, as proven by the Russians.

Shotgun Christening
10th August 10, 05:20 PM
Well, you used the example of how the Taliban kill aid workers treat women like dirt etc.. as a reason for 'why we are at war'.

I don't think those things are reasons to be at war.

My point (that I have made before) is that these are the type of people we are up against. They are terrorists. We fight because they will come after us because we are perceived as their great enemy.
We see women as being equal and they see that as a threat to their way of life.
We see humanitarian aid missions and they see it as a way we can show the regular Afghani how we arent the demons the Taliban portray us to be.

*edit* you cant just go in and look for terrorists, you have to root out their power base. If you just kill the old regime and leave you create a vacuum. Thats not a good idea.

Commodore Pipes
10th August 10, 05:35 PM
Hegehogey, you misspelled 'Chomsky.'

Cullion
10th August 10, 05:40 PM
My point (that I have made before) is that these are the type of people we are up against. They are terrorists. We fight because they will come after us because we are perceived as their great enemy.

If you want to stop them attacking you, why are you pouring so many troops into a couple of countries in the middle east instead of making it harder for muslims to enter the US ?

'Terrorism' does not have an address. You're increasing the risk of terrorism on your own turf by angering the muslim world. I know I'm restating the case but; The War on Terrorism as envisaged by our leaders is an absurd and doomed concept. See below for why.



We see women as being equal and they see that as a threat to their way of life.
We see humanitarian aid missions and they see it as a way we can show the regular Afghani how we arent the demons the Taliban portray us to be.

*edit* you cant just go in and look for terrorists, you have to root out their power base. If you just kill the old regime and leave you create a vacuum. Thats not a good idea.

The 'muslim terrorist' power base is not in Afghanistan. It is not in Pakistan, or Indonesia. It is not even in Saudi Arabia.

It is in the mind of every angry young muslim who sees something on TV . or the Internet, or is told about at their Mosque, that the US has done or even been falsely accused of. You cannot stem it's flow with boots on the ground. In no little part because millions of these people already live in the West.

You can, however, create more angry muslims simply by occupying a muslim country.

Shotgun Christening
10th August 10, 05:48 PM
If you want to stop them attacking you, why are you pouring so many troops into a couple of countries in the middle east instead of making it harder for muslims to enter the US ?

I agree. We cant even stop Mexicans from entering what makes you think we can keep terrorists out?



'Terrorism' does not have an address. You're increasing the risk of terrorism on your own turf by angering the muslim world.

They are already mad at us. 9/11 ring a bell? Oh and please stop saying terrorism doesnt have an adress. We are talking about Afghanistan not the entire Muslim world.



The 'muslim terrorist' power base is not in Afghanistan. It is not in Pakistan, or Indonesia. It is not even in Saudi Arabia.

Im talking about in Afghanistan. Remeber? You keep saying that the thread title is "Why we fight in Afghanistan" you would think that you could keep that in mind.




It is in the mind of every angry young muslim who sees something on TV . or the Internet, or is told about at their Mosque, that the US has done or even been falsely accused of. You cannot stem it's flow with boots on the ground. In no little part because millions of these people already live in the West.

You can, however, create more angry muslims simply by occupying a muslim country.


Blah Blah Blah. So you suggest we sit by like an impotent old man and do nothing?

Shotgun Christening
10th August 10, 05:49 PM
Hegehogey, you misspelled 'Chomsky.'


LOL you mispelled douchebag....

Commodore Pipes
10th August 10, 05:50 PM
Examine this sequence:

Me: [posts an article condemning US occupation of Afghanistan]

You: If you hate living in America so much, why don't you go move to Cuba, you terrorist loving cockpavilion?

Me: ???

You: Prove it!


It's not my obligation to prove that SFGOON's tin foil hat conspiracy theories about the EZLN being a front for Mafia Drug Runners, RAWA being a front for the Taliban or John Lennon having been replaced by a reptilian Jew extraterrestrial during the making of the White Album. It's his obligation to prove them true.

You are either an intense, successful, consistent troll, or you really don't have anything resembling a clue. All of the evidence is above. If that is the way you really viewed that exchange, no wonder your world view is so simplistic. Of course, it isn't how you see things, it's just how you choose to frame things. Trying to define the burden of proof and naming SFGOON specifically sort of gives away the fact that you knew what oldman34 was talking about. So you're naive and disingenuous.

Look, it's okay to be American. It's okay to be middle class. Your experience isn't less valid; it's part of the huge tapestry of what it means to be human. You don't need to chase down causes to be a real human being.

Commodore Pipes
10th August 10, 05:55 PM
LOL you mispelled douchebag....

That's true, but I don't worship at his altar, either. Just like how I expect Lebell to be able to spell 'Hitler' you'd think Hedgehogey could spell 'Chomsky.'

Cullion
10th August 10, 06:04 PM
I agree. We cant even stop Mexicans from entering what makes you think we can keep terrorists out?

You can't control your own borders because your ruling class don't want to.

That they've successfully tricked you into thinking you can have any impact on whether muslim fanatics can organise in the rest of the world by invading one bleak stony little country between Iran and Pakistan is a breathtaking testament to how effective their propaganda has been.

This is total cognitive dissonance, and I'm sure you can see it.



They are already mad at us. 9/11 ring a bell? Oh and please stop saying terrorism doesnt have an adress. We are talking about Afghanistan not the entire Muslim world.

Yes 9-11 rings a bell. That was the terrorist attack conducted by Saudis who trained for it in the US, right?

You're focussing on Afghanistan. Terrorism doesn't have an address and that's precisely why your continued insistence that you can fight it in Afghanistan is so wrong. You really do need to think about 'The entire Muslim world'. Absolutely you must.

One of the most important methods of propaganda isn't simply that your persuaded one way or another on a particular issue, it's manipulation of which issues are being debated in the first place.

That's exactly why your analysis is flawed. You give an excellent example of it below. I'll address the 'something must be done!' pavlovian response further down.



Im talking about in Afghanistan. Remeber? You keep saying that the thread title is "Why we fight in Afghanistan" you would think that you could keep that in mind.

Yes, and you should have noticed by now that I've pointed out why 'fighting terrorism' isn't a sane reason to be in Afghanistan.



Blah Blah Blah. So you suggest we sit by like an impotent old man and do nothing?

Why do you sit by like an impotent old man the rest of the time ? These things happen all over the world, all the time It's because your ruling class hasn't decided to whip you up into moral outrage about those things yet.

Don't be so easily manipulated and start thinking about what you'd actually like your politicians to do for your own people's benefit.

You've already admitted that we can't fix their culture.

Your reply to 'why Terrorism doesn't have an address' basically amounted to 'well, we're in Afghanistan now and bad things!!11!!'

It's a 3 card trick, and you're been tricked into watching the lady.

You can't fix Afghanistan, and you can't stop terrorism (or even likely reduce terrorism) by sacrificing billions of dollars and the lives of young people there.

So, maybe you ought to think about wider contexts.

bob
10th August 10, 06:59 PM
When our colonial adventures were basically simple raids where we said 'nation X has wealth. it is in our national interest to have some of that by any means. Everybody in favour say 'aye!' it actually worked just fine. Sorta like Vikings with muskets and accounting legers.

It mostly started falling apart when we began trying to civilise people as well. That's just too expensive to do by force, essentially.




What are some examples of the former and the latter do you think?

Lebell
10th August 10, 07:15 PM
Yeah but dude, you subscribe to Clash of Civilizations theory. Your posts are so morally bankrupt i'm surprised you're not posting them on youtube as comments to a TRUTH ABOUT ISLAM video.

Edit: Actually you still don't get the joke. Let me kill the frog for you.

The hilarious thing is you outlining a very careful plan (no doubt you have the ear of the Pentagon on this) to commit crimes against humanity while talking about how uncivilized and barbaric Afghans are.

the joke is on you my litle friend.
you defend the people who are actually the most opposed to your lifestyle.
people like the one's in afghanistan subscribe to a very tribal version of islam, and there's very little reasoning with them, how do i know? well, i don't read the latest antifa newsbulletins, but i can read the quran in high arabic, and i can also read the religious manifests.
can you?
The joke is on you: get edkashun.

Hedgehogey
10th August 10, 09:28 PM
the joke is on you my litle friend.
you defend the people who are actually the most opposed to your lifestyle.

RAWA is opposed to my lifestyle?

Hedgehogey
10th August 10, 09:31 PM
When our colonial adventures were basically simple raids where we said 'nation X has wealth. it is in our national interest to have some of that by any means. Everybody in favour say 'aye!' it actually worked just fine. Sorta like Vikings with muskets and accounting legers.

It mostly started falling apart when we began trying to civilise people as well. That's just too expensive to do by force, essentially.

Do you not see any cognitive dissonance between acting, in your own words, like high tech vikings, and talking about "civilizing" people?

There is no question in my mind (Because of the exact practices you talked about above) that it's absurd for Americans to start talking about wether doing a White Man's Burden thing is cost effective.

EuropIan
10th August 10, 11:33 PM
Do you not see any cognitive dissonance between acting, in your own words, like high tech vikings, and talking about "civilizing" people?

There is no question in my mind (Because of the exact practices you talked about above) that it's absurd for Americans to start talking about wether doing a White Man's Burden thing is cost effective.
It's more about the about the disconnect between the goals and the method to achieve said goals.

You can't murder, rape and pillage while looking like the good guy.

SFGOON
11th August 10, 01:06 AM
You think everything's a front for something. You thought the EZLN was a front for Sicilian/Salvadorean (?) drug runners and now you think RAWA is a front for the Taliban. You are one big piece of paranoid, ill informed nutcake.

Which is typical of the binary 'if you're not with us, you're with the terrorists' thinking of so many supporters of wars of aggression, but still hilariously wrongheaded.

Now, if I agree to discuss this further with you, you have to promise not to ask to be banned or some other shit. You have to see it through to the end this time.

Do you feel like you're up to it? I was very disappointed when you left last time.

SFGOON
11th August 10, 01:19 AM
By the way, know what I think will go miles and miles in suppressing the Taliban and curtailing radical islam? This sort of thing;

OdhXnS37opY

Lebell
11th August 10, 04:05 AM
By the way, know what I think will go miles and miles in suppressing the Taliban and curtailing radical islam? This sort of thing;

OdhXnS37opY

No it won't.
See, you're thinking /asserting this as a westener.
People over there really don't care about these kinda shows.

They are more concerned with their papaver crops, where to find 8 year old boys for quality time, and whether their donkeys last another winter.

Cullion
11th August 10, 04:07 AM
Do you not see any cognitive dissonance between acting, in your own words, like high tech vikings, and talking about "civilizing" people?

Yes of course I do, I don't think you understood my post.

Lebell
11th August 10, 04:07 AM
you know what?
since Hedge is sucha amazing guy who knows everything, how about we all put in some cash to send him to afghanistan?
he can write a blog once he's there how he's helping to build schools, and how he teaches bjj to the opressed women of afghanistan so they can defend themselves from their vioent husbands and all that?

Cullion
11th August 10, 04:13 AM
What are some examples of the former and the latter do you think?

An example of the former would be the the way we secured Indian trade and Opium routes throughout East Asia for the British East India company quite openly and unashamedly for our own benefit.

An example of the latter would be what we did in most of our established colonies for the latter half of the Victorian era and the early-20th century Edwardian era.

We spent a lot of time and money building roads and schools, trying to convert people to Christianity, teaching them our technology etc. There was still gunboat diplomacy, but Britain had changed from being a country of nakedly self-interested raiders and sharp businessmen to being a country of people who believed they had some kind of manifest destiny to civilise the world.

I don't believe either option is a sensible or ethical way to behave, but the former seemed to have worked much better in our own selfish interests than the latter. The latter basically started bankrupting the British Empire well before the two great wars.

Shotgun Christening
11th August 10, 05:28 AM
You can't control your own borders because your ruling class don't want to.

I said this on another thread (DOJ vs AZ).



That they've successfully tricked you into thinking you can have any impact on whether muslim fanatics can organise in the rest of the world by invading one bleak stony little country between Iran and Pakistan is a breathtaking testament to how effective their propaganda has been.

I didnt say that. Nope, never said it. Is this how you argue? By putting words in someones mouth and then telling them how wrong they are?



Yes 9-11 rings a bell. That was the terrorist attack conducted by Saudis who trained for it in the US, right?

Yes, organised by a man harbored by the Taliban. See the connection?



You're focussing on Afghanistan. Terrorism doesn't have an address and that's precisely why your continued insistence that you can fight it in Afghanistan is so wrong. You really do need to think about 'The entire Muslim world'. Absolutely you must.

Im not focused on anything. I simply posted the article as a reason that we are fighting. Afghanistan is the current location we are fighting in but the mindset of these people is what got us there. I have explained that before but you seem to keep missing it.



One of the most important methods of propaganda isn't simply that your persuaded one way or another on a particular issue, it's manipulation of which issues are being debated in the first place.

That's exactly why your analysis is flawed. You give an excellent example of it below. I'll address the 'something must be done!' pavlovian response further down.

Oh ok...I see.....we shouldnt report how the Taliban kills doctors and unarmed civilians...got it. Let that just pass on by. Maybe we should report more about how we missed with a bomb and killed 25 innocent people too. I got it.



Yes, and you should have noticed by now that I've pointed out why 'fighting terrorism' isn't a sane reason to be in Afghanistan.

If we need to be fighting the entire Muslim world.....isnt Afghanistan ruled by a Muslim regime?



Why do you sit by like an impotent old man the rest of the time ? These things happen all over the world, all the time It's because your ruling class hasn't decided to whip you up into moral outrage about those things yet.

Don't be so easily manipulated and start thinking about what you'd actually like your politicians to do for your own people's benefit.

So the inaction of the US government is my fault? LOL



You've already admitted that we can't fix their culture.

We shouldnt be there to fix their culture. Unfortunately we have taken that impossible task on. Part of going in to Afghanistan was to install a friendlier government in place of the Taliban. The US hasnt realised that this simply cannot be done. It hasnt worked in the Middle East in the past and wont work now.



Your reply to 'why Terrorism doesn't have an address' basically amounted to 'well, we're in Afghanistan now and bad things!!11!!'

So you suggest that we go after Pakistan next? How about Iraq?



You can't fix Afghanistan, and you can't stop terrorism (or even likely reduce terrorism) by sacrificing billions of dollars and the lives of young people there.

How many times do I have to say this? I know we cant fix Afghanistan. Your reading skills are terrible.



So, maybe you ought to think about wider contexts.

The discussion is on Afghanistan...why do we need to think about wider contexts? Maybe you should start a thread about how we should combat terrorism as a whole.

Cullion
11th August 10, 05:47 AM
I didnt say that. Nope, never said it. Is this how you argue? By putting words in someones mouth and then telling them how wrong they are?

You quite explicitly said it, because you've repeatedly said 'we are at war in Afghanistan to fight terrorism'. You may not have realised that the logical implication of believing 'we are in Afghanistan to fight terrorism' is that you believe you can fight terrorism by being in Afghanistan. Or that it will prevent another 9-11 happening.

It won't, it makes it more likely.

I'm arguing by pointing out the logical contradictions in what you've said. When you say 'hey I never said that' what you really mean is 'I never realised the implications of, and contradictions within, what I said'.



Yes, organised by a man harbored by the Taliban. See the connection?

Yes, he's not there anymore. Terrorism doesn't have an address. The Taliban are still there. See how this isn't working ?



Im not focused on anything. I simply posted the article as a reason that we are fighting. Afghanistan is the current location we are fighting in but the mindset of these people is what got us there. I have explained that before but you seem to keep missing it.

I understood your explanation, I'm pointing out that it doesn't make sense. 'The mindset of these people' is not a sane reason to be in their country.



Oh ok...I see.....we shouldnt report how the Taliban kills doctors and unarmed civilians...got it. Let that just pass on by. Maybe we should report more about how we missed with a bomb and killed 25 innocent people too. I got it.

No, you haven't got it. You don't understand that those attrocities are not a reason to have troops there. One does not follow from the other. That's what you aren't getting.



If we need to be fighting the entire Muslim world.....isnt Afghanistan ruled by a Muslim regime?

You can't fight the entire muslim world, that's the whole point. The 'war on terror' as a military strategy is doomed, and it's not really the reason your political elite sent troops there anyway. That's my point.



So the inaction of the US government is my fault? LOL

No, not at all. You've misunderstood my point.



We shouldnt be there to fix their culture. Unfortunately we have taken that impossible task on. Part of going in to Afghanistan was to install a friendlier government in place of the Taliban. The US hasnt realised that this simply cannot be done. It hasnt worked in the Middle East in the past and wont work now.

Yes, exactly.



So you suggest that we go after Pakistan next? How about Iraq?

I don't think we should've invaded Iraq either. Pakistan needs something else, but part of the problem with our current strategy is that it acts as a recruiting drive for the very people who might destablise Pakistan.



How many times do I have to say this? I know we cant fix Afghanistan. Your reading skills are terrible.

My reading skills are fine, it's just that what you say is full of non-sequiturs and logical fallacies that you don't seem to be picking up on. If you agree that we can't fix Afghani culture or fight terrorism by being their then why did you start a thread saying 'This is why we are at war' citing exactly those two things?



The discussion is on Afghanistan...why do we need to think about wider contexts? Maybe you should start a thread about how we should combat terrorism as a whole.

Just because you started a thread with the word 'Afghanistan' in the title, it doesn't mean that wider contexts can't be pointed out.

Look, imagine the US did something crazy like invading Iceland to catch some British and German terrorists who had been in contact with a Swede who lived there for a while.

Somebody might point out this was a bad idea because it wasn't going to stop Germans and Brits wanting to attack the US, and because of the way it affected the US relationship with the rest of Europe.

By parallel, you saying 'focus! we're talking about Iceland here!' wouldn't make any sense at all.

But this is exactly what you're doing when you talk about the 'war on terror' and all your other stated reasons for being at war in Afghanistan whilst refusing to consider the bigger picture.

Quikfeet509
11th August 10, 09:27 AM
Back to the original post - it always seems odd to me to associate medical care with christianity when you are going into countries that have issues with christianity. Is it a pride thing or a funding thing?

EuropIan
11th August 10, 09:33 AM
It's a proselytizing thing

SFGOON
11th August 10, 10:19 AM
Back to the original post - it always seems odd to me to associate medical care with christianity when you are going into countries that have issues with christianity. Is it a pride thing or a funding thing?

It's a Knights Hospitaler thing, as well as a Knights Templar thing.

In fact, you could say it was a crusader thing.

This is lost on most westerners, but not many Muslims miss this fact.

Hedgehogey
11th August 10, 01:41 PM
Yes of course I do, I don't think you understood my post.

Maybe you do. I don't think the rest of the thread does. Especially not Lebell.

Hedgehogey
11th August 10, 01:42 PM
you know what?
since Hedge is sucha amazing guy who knows everything, how about we all put in some cash to send him to afghanistan?
he can write a blog once he's there how he's helping to build schools, and how he teaches bjj to the opressed women of afghanistan so they can defend themselves from their vioent husbands and all that?

Did one of those things in southern Mexico already, so I don't see any reason why not. Fund it!

Robot Jesus
11th August 10, 02:56 PM
I vaguely remember talking to some guy from my brothers regiment about Afghanistan.

things may have changed but he said that they are really fucking backwards. forget letting girls go to school, teaching them proper methods of garbage disposal and public sanitation would be a laudable if overly ambitious goal.

Lebell
11th August 10, 04:51 PM
Did one of those things in southern Mexico already, so I don't see any reason why not. Fund it!

yeah afghanistan is a bit like south mexico i guess.
im willing to donate money, who else?

Commodore Pipes
11th August 10, 04:57 PM
How much are you asking?

Lebell
11th August 10, 04:59 PM
well you can give any amount that you are willing to spend, how much do you want to send hedge to afghanistan?
he's too much of a pussy to make it through bootcamp so we have to be creative.
;-)

Commodore Pipes
11th August 10, 05:08 PM
I really wonder what a ticket to afghanistan costs. maybe I could do a fund drive around the office.

Shotgun Christening
11th August 10, 05:24 PM
yeah afghanistan is a bit like south mexico i guess.
im willing to donate money, who else?

I have been to Afghanistan, its like Southern Mexico in that its a shit hole. Maybe if you could guarantee his delivery to Zabul I would pitch in.

Cullion
11th August 10, 05:37 PM
Oldman, let's cut out the wordplay. What do you think the US government should do now, regarding Afghanistan ?

HappyOldGuy
11th August 10, 08:39 PM
I don't believe either option is a sensible or ethical way to behave, but the former seemed to have worked much better in our own selfish interests than the latter. The latter basically started bankrupting the British Empire well before the two great wars.

Not that I disagree with you at all, but on the upside, it's going to pay massive dividends in the next great war.

Hedgehogey
11th August 10, 10:15 PM
I vaguely remember talking to some guy from my brothers regiment about Afghanistan.

things may have changed but he said that they are really fucking backwards. forget letting girls go to school, teaching them proper methods of garbage disposal and public sanitation would be a laudable if overly ambitious goal.

My goodness, look how backwards and incompetent the natives are! More tea, Lord Byron Worthington Swineroarer the Third?

Hedgehogey
11th August 10, 10:18 PM
By the way, noone has yet provided a logical link between my pointing out that USian forces are also involved in atrocities against civilians and telling me to go back to Cuba or wherever.

HappyOldGuy
11th August 10, 11:21 PM
You're not very good at this are you.

What exactly should be US policy today.

SFGOON
12th August 10, 12:01 AM
By the way, noone has yet provided a logical link between my pointing out that USian forces are also involved in atrocities against civilians and telling me to go back to Cuba or wherever.

Give some logic, and you might get some in return.

Until then, the Mujahedeen really need your help shoveling some goat shit.

Lebell
12th August 10, 03:54 AM
By the way, noone has yet provided a logical link between my pointing out that USian forces are also involved in atrocities against civilians and telling me to go back to Cuba or wherever.

You're not making a good 'point'.
What kind of 'attrocities' are we talking about?
Burning schools?
Maiming women and children?
Public hangings of suspected collaborators?
Huge scale trafficing of opium and heroin?
Beheading people on camera?

Or do you mean those precision bombings that sometimes cause civilian casualties, but still a fraction of the counts as they made in Vietnam?

See what you're type of people tend to do is make it worse: you think (often out of ignorance) that all the different people of the world are americans struggling to get out, and when you respect their 'cultures' and ' values', things will smoothen out in the long run.
Lefties like you only prolong the problem, and you're not really interested in the actual problems, you just want to disagree and have a different point of view for arguments sake.

Lebell
12th August 10, 03:56 AM
Make no mistake my friends, the Islamic 'civilisations' must enter the 21st century, and we'll drag em by their hair if needed.
As soon as one of those nutcases acquires the Bomb we're all fucked.

Hedgehogey
12th August 10, 04:43 AM
You're not making a good 'point'.
What kind of 'attrocities' are we talking about?
Burning schools?
Maiming women and children?
Public hangings of suspected collaborators?

Yep!
http://www.hrw.org/backgrounder/asia/afghan-bck1005.htm#uf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_alliance#Human_rights_abuses
http://www.rawa.org/rawa/2010/03/07/emancipation-of-afghan-women-not-attainable-as-long-as-the-occupation-taliban-and-national-front-criminals-are-not-sacked.html
http://www.rawa.org/s-photos.htm
http://www.rawa.org/temp/runews/2010/08/09/liberating-the-women-of-afghanistan.html


Huge scale trafficing of opium and heroin?

Yep (http://www.unwire.org/unwire/20011005/19106_story.asp)

Now before you go "those are Afghans too!", those are our friendly pet Afghans. The saviors of democracy in the region. We gave these guys millions of dollars in military aid and helped set them up as the country's new dynasty, just the same way we did for the Taliban back in the 80s. We share in a large portion of the responsibility for their actions. This is a rather well documented historical cycle of the USA propping up its tin hat dictators/contras/whathaveyou to go to war with other tin hat dictators/contras that they don't like.

The current bogeymen in the region were both armed, trained and funded by us. And when today's saviors of democracy become tomorrow's evil terrorists, the president will be able to thank his lucky stars for people like you, oldman34, and the incredibly short American historical memory.



Beheading people on camera?

Not so much beheading them as hanging.



Or do you mean those precision bombings that sometimes cause civilian casualties, but still a fraction of the counts as they made in Vietnam?

Oh, right, less bombing than the bombings in Vietnam, where tens to hundreds of thousands of civilians died due to our levlling of Hanoi, not to mention thousands more disappeared by our pet ARVN. Great job, America!



See what you're type of people tend to do is make it worse: you think (often out of ignorance) that all the different people of the world are americans struggling to get out, and when you respect their 'cultures' and ' values', things will smoothen out in the long run.

How utopian of me! Yes, I believe in a world where people respect each other, on a both individual and cultural level. God what a rainbow colored fag that makes me. How PC.
I see you there assuming that multiculturalism is a USA specific phenomenom. I see you! Yes I do! Cootchy cootchy coo! Cootchy coo! My god why were you not aborted.



Lefties like you only prolong the problem, and you're not really interested in the actual problems, you just want to disagree and have a different point of view for arguments sake.

It's an old cliche of shouting down dissent to tell the dissenter that they are doing so just to be disagreeable. And let's face it Lebell, you're not very original.

Hedgehogey
12th August 10, 05:02 AM
Make no mistake my friends, the Islamic 'civilisations' must enter the 21st century, and we'll drag em by their hair if needed.

Make no mistake my friends, if I could hack the no drinking and fornicating rules (not to mention the circumcision!), i'd be praying to Mecca right now just to piss you off.



As soon as one of those nutcases acquires the Bomb we're all fucked.

Yeah, they might drop it on a city. Twice.

Lebell
12th August 10, 05:29 AM
Yep!
http://www.hrw.org/backgrounder/asia/afghan-bck1005.htm#uf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_alliance#Human_rights_abuses
http://www.rawa.org/rawa/2010/03/07/emancipation-of-afghan-women-not-attainable-as-long-as-the-occupation-taliban-and-national-front-criminals-are-not-sacked.html
http://www.rawa.org/s-photos.htm
http://www.rawa.org/temp/runews/2010/08/09/liberating-the-women-of-afghanistan.html



Yep (http://www.unwire.org/unwire/20011005/19106_story.asp)


antifa nonsense.
posting pictures of collateral damage and reporting crimes other locals did does not make the western armies go dow to the afghan level.
it rather proves my point they're all alien to us and a bunch of savages.



Now before you go "those are Afghans too!", those are our friendly pet Afghans. The saviors of democracy in the region. We gave these guys millions of dollars in military aid and helped set them up as the country's new dynasty, just the same way we did for the Taliban back in the 80s. We share in a large portion of the responsibility for their actions. This is a rather well documented historical cycle of the USA propping up its tin hat dictators/contras/whathaveyou to go to war with other tin hat dictators/contras that they don't like.


No they're not our pet afghans, if we sacrifice westeners who are infinitely better educated and trained, and we sacrifice them for savages then the least we should do is to deploy some locals to sacrifice some men aswell.
the romans introduced the concept of auxilares.
nice try though.






The current bogeymen in the region were both armed, trained and funded by us. And when today's saviors of democracy become tomorrow's evil terrorists, the president will be able to thank his lucky stars for people like you, oldman34, and the incredibly short American historical memory.


There are always and also always will be ations and interestgroups who fund armed factions in wars.
Because you're ignorant you think you're making a moral point, but what you forget is that nations do not have friends, only interests.
Especially in relations to countries we don't have mutual benefits or dont really need friends can turn into enemies overnight.
Thats been the way of the world all over the globe throughout the recorded history of time.
You totally are ignorant of the big picture.







Oh, right, less bombing than the bombings in Vietnam, where tens to hundreds of thousands of civilians died due to our levlling of Hanoi, not to mention thousands more disappeared by our pet ARVN. Great job, America!


You believe in a war where only the military personel gets killed?
lol!



How utopian of me! Yes, I believe in a world where people respect each other, on a both individual and cultural level. God what a rainbow colored fag that makes me. How PC.

No, its quite noble of you, you must feel quite the enlightened superior person.



I see you there assuming that multiculturalism is a USA specific phenomenom. I see you! Yes I do! Cootchy cootchy coo! Cootchy coo!

Europe invented multiculturalism, and it doesnt work out well.
Personally i'm fiercely opposed to it, certain cultures just don't mix and will never meet, they will just clash.
Islamic CULTURE is such a culture, my proof: almost any conflict in the world.
A society can only stay strong if its homogenic, all the members of society must be willing to contribute to said society and do their part.
Importing medieval savages usually results in jihadist ghettos.
I say: burn down the 5th colonne we are building.
I promise you in 30 years another American fleet will be storming the beaches of Normandy to liberate the Europeans from the Western Kaliphate, a situation brought upon us by left winged faggots such as yourself.


My god why were you not aborted.
I had a daddy who had a say in it too.
You never had a father, right?
you strike me as the typical fatherless momma's boy, you need a father figure dude.
Also: funny how antifa fagg0ts always turn to nazi-esque measures when they encounter opposition: threats, deathwishes, degradation, cencorship....adolf would be proud.




It's an old cliche of shouting down dissent to tell the dissenter that they are doing so just to be disagreeable. And let's face it Lebell, you're not very original.[/quote]

Lebell
12th August 10, 05:32 AM
Make no mistake my friends, if I could hack the no drinking and fornicating rules (not to mention the circumcision!), i'd be praying to Mecca right now just to piss you off.


And unknowingly here you show your true colours: the colours of a silly boy who is not about content, but just wants to ' piss off all the stupid people who arent like him'.
don't be an angry boy, it will lead to a life full of douchebaggery and you won't cure from it til your mid 40ies.
Thats a lotta wasted years.

Shotgun Christening
12th August 10, 05:51 AM
Oldman, let's cut out the wordplay. What do you think the US government should do now, regarding Afghanistan ?

Its a now a no win situation no matter what we do. Afghanis are not like us. They never will be. They have a different culture and religion. Unless we can fundamentally change them (which we cant) all we can do is finish our mission of finding terrorists and bringing them to justice.
If we set up a firm infrastructure it will be used to amass wealth and then be turned against us like the Saudis.
If we dont set up a firm infrastructure the Taliban will return to power and things will go back to normal. Either way we lose. We lose now or we lose twenty years from now.

The Taliban are like every other class of oppressor in the history of the world. Keep the masses poor, illiterate and afraid. This keeps them in line. Leaving now would result in a vacuum that the Taliban can easily fill causing a huge civil war leading to more death and maimings. The Taliban will do to US sympathisers what the French did to the German sympathisers after WW2.
Also, if we leave now then the rest of the world will realise that all you have to do is stall the US until the American public has had enough of the financial strain, and seeing our military come home in bags. ( I have seen enough of both)

If we stay then we lose more money in a time when our country can use it, and we see more of our military come home in bags.
I dont worry about further damaging our credibility with the Arabic people because they already hate us. Unless we denounce Israel they will always see us as an enemy. Unless we convert to Muslims then we will be infidels. The extremists in their world will come after us and our interests abroad for the rest of time.

If we fight this war politically like we are now, then we lose more money and lives. If we fight this war like a war should be fought then we lose our "good guy" image around the world and people can say "LOOK THE US DID IT WHY CANT WE?!!??!!?" We still here that shit from idiots who point to the atomic bombs we dropped on Japan. They conviently forget that Japan attacked us first.

Shotgun Christening
12th August 10, 05:57 AM
And unknowingly here you show your true colours: the colours of a silly boy who is not about content, but just wants to ' piss off all the stupid people who arent like him'.
don't be an angry boy, it will lead to a life full of douchebaggery and you won't cure from it til your mid 40ies.
Thats a lotta wasted years.


I have him on ignore but saw this in your post.

You have the correct on this Lebell. He doesnt believe it, he just likes to make people angry because of his feelings of inadequacy. Like someone said earlier, he doesnt feel like he has suffered and thats what gets attention in his little clique. So he tries to align himself with people that are "suffering" so he can have the glory and admiration of his peers because he suffers by proxy.

He doesnt realise that the Afghan people turn on us as much as they help. He hasnt been there and hasnt worked with anyone who has.

I could post page after page after page of pictures and videos of the Talibans attrocities to us and their own people but what good would it do?

Cullion
12th August 10, 06:00 AM
Its a now a no win situation no matter what we do. Afghanis are not like us. They never will be. They have a different culture and religion. Unless we can fundamentally change them (which we cant) all we can do is finish our mission of finding terrorists and bringing them to justice.
If we set up a firm infrastructure it will be used to amass wealth and then be turned against us like the Saudis.
If we dont set up a firm infrastructure the Taliban will return to power and things will go back to normal. Either way we lose. We lose now or we lose twenty years from now.

The Taliban are like every other class of oppressor in the history of the world. Keep the masses poor, illiterate and afraid. This keeps them in line. Leaving now would result in a vacuum that the Taliban can easily fill causing a huge civil war leading to more death and maimings. The Taliban will do to US sympathisers what the French did to the German sympathisers after WW2.
Also, if we leave now then the rest of the world will realise that all you have to do is stall the US until the American public has had enough of the financial strain, and seeing our military come home in bags. ( I have seen enough of both)

If we stay then we lose more money in a time when our country can use it, and we see more of our military come home in bags.
I dont worry about further damaging our credibility with the Arabic people because they already hate us. Unless we denounce Israel they will always see us as an enemy. Unless we convert to Muslims then we will be infidels. The extremists in their world will come after us and our interests abroad for the rest of time.

If we fight this war politically like we are now, then we lose more money and lives. If we fight this war like a war should be fought then we lose our "good guy" image around the world and people can say "LOOK THE US DID IT WHY CANT WE?!!??!!?" We still here that shit from idiots who point to the atomic bombs we dropped on Japan. They conviently forget that Japan attacked us first.

If you stepped up the war in Afghanistan without regard for the common American sense of right and wrong, do you believe that the terrorist threat to the US would be reduced?

I don't believe that to be the case because I think that would require a similar campaign in almost every other Muslim country simultaneously, combined with draconian restrictions on the movements of muslims into and around the US, and existing Muslim citizens at home. I think this is completely beyond American fiscal resources, and would be politically impossible.

That's why I think the west shouldn't be involved in occupying middle eastern countries and we're going to have to find another solution to the problem. I think we'd be better off if we'd never gone in the first place.

There's one thing in the region I am worried about, that I think we do need to do something about. I don't want the Taliban taking over Pakistan and getting their hands on nuclear weapons. I don't want our governments to try and occupy Pakistan militarily to prevent this, I'm certain it wouldn't work.

I don't know what to do about that.

Commodore Pipes
12th August 10, 08:34 AM
It's an old cliche of shouting down dissent to tell the dissenter that they are doing so just to be disagreeable. And let's face it Lebell, you're not very original.


Make no mistake my friends, if I could hack the no drinking and fornicating rules (not to mention the circumcision!), i'd be praying to Mecca right now just to piss you off.

This might be a better troll job than Bill Aguilar's. Maybe the whole persona is, including the dirt ninjer match. Brilliant!

Commodore Pipes
12th August 10, 08:42 AM
As far as foreign policy, the US has been serving as an arm of corporate interests for years. In this I presume I agree with hedgehogey: I'm sick of government resources and American lives being used to secure economic interests abroad. I'm pretty sure there is a non-military mechanism for that, and it's called trade. Of course nowadays it isn't just using the government to secure investments, but war itself becomes an investment with the US the best possible customer: one who never questions the price.

As for those instances where a government nationalized resources after foriegn investors sink money into it? Well, asuming we don't have another country we can sic on them to re-install the Shah, I guess I have to say you pays your money and you takes your chances.

Lebell
12th August 10, 12:32 PM
the nazis were smarter: they nationalised the military industry or otherwise dictated the prices.
it paid off in a way:in the last year of the war and despite heavy bombings, the german warindustry performed at peaklevels.

EuropIan
12th August 10, 01:16 PM
Lebell, I think that creek is dry.

Lebell
12th August 10, 01:53 PM
look, its not a trolljob, its the truth.
for example, when eisenhower left fofice he warned for the military-industrial complex.

before you go ' loz0rz, bad trolljob br0!' try to understand the point im making instead of going ' zomg he mentions the nazis!!'

EuropIan
12th August 10, 01:59 PM
You nationalize military production for short term gains.

You subsidize it for long term production.

lant3rn
12th August 10, 02:44 PM
look, its not a trolljob, its the truth.
for example, when eisenhower left fofice he warned for the military-industrial complex.

before you go ' loz0rz, bad trolljob br0!' try to understand the point im making instead of going ' zomg he mentions the nazis!!'

Then why do you constantly make a point to mention ze nazis?

it's like you think its funny to try to get people to legitimize the regime.

Just explain the ideas merit, instead of making stupid qualifications.



I'm probably and idiot for giving you the benifit of the doubt on this.

Shotgun Christening
12th August 10, 04:59 PM
If you stepped up the war in Afghanistan without regard for the common American sense of right and wrong, do you believe that the terrorist threat to the US would be reduced?

I don't believe that to be the case because I think that would require a similar campaign in almost every other Muslim country simultaneously, combined with draconian restrictions on the movements of muslims into and around the US, and existing Muslim citizens at home. I think this is completely beyond American fiscal resources, and would be politically impossible.

Agreed



That's why I think the west shouldn't be involved in occupying middle eastern countries and we're going to have to find another solution to the problem. I think we'd be better off if we'd never gone in the first place.

Unfortunately I dont think there is another soultion.



There's one thing in the region I am worried about, that I think we do need to do something about. I don't want the Taliban taking over Pakistan and getting their hands on nuclear weapons. I don't want our governments to try and occupy Pakistan militarily to prevent this, I'm certain it wouldn't work.

I don't know what to do about that.

Thats a tricky one isnt it? Its one of the reasons that we dont want Iran to have nukes.
The entire Middle East is a problem for us. A lot of it is of our own making.

SifuAbel
12th August 10, 05:08 PM
If nukes become part of the equation, chances are, they'll nuke the shit out each other first.

lant3rn
12th August 10, 05:15 PM
There's one thing in the region I am worried about, that I think we do need to do something about. I don't want the Taliban taking over Pakistan and getting their hands on nuclear weapons. I don't want our governments to try and occupy Pakistan militarily to prevent this, I'm certain it wouldn't work.

I don't know what to do about that.

probably an economic solution would be best. If the two nations become more reliant on one another through trade. It would be easier to smooth over a military partnership on the issue.

Shotgun Christening
12th August 10, 06:12 PM
If nukes become part of the equation, chances are, they'll nuke the shit out each other first.


If they get nukes Israel is fucked

EuropIan
12th August 10, 06:19 PM
If they get nukes Israel is fucked
The Islamic nation of Pakistan already has them.

SFGOON
12th August 10, 07:15 PM
Not only that, Iran and Lebanon have stockpiles of "Novichok" chemical weapons which are just as nasty.

The idea with Arab nations and nuclear weapons is not to annihilate Israel with them per se, but rather to create nuclear parity - a regional detente as it were.

Hedgehogey
12th August 10, 10:03 PM
antifa nonsense.
posting pictures of collateral damage and reporting crimes other locals did does not make the western armies go dow to the afghan level.
it rather proves my point they're all alien to us and a bunch of savages.

Yes. This makes you a bigot/quasi-racist.



No they're not our pet afghans,

They very much are. I linked to our grooming and funding of them, the same way we groomed and funded the infant Al Qaeda. This section of the quoteblock war is now officially mine.



if we sacrifice westeners who are infinitely better educated and trained, and we sacrifice them for savages then the least we should do is to deploy some locals to sacrifice some men aswell.
the romans introduced the concept of auxilares.
nice try though.

Again. The use of "savages" as a prejorative. A favorite tactic of racists since the Victorian era.



There are always and also always will be ations and interestgroups who fund armed factions in wars.
Because you're ignorant you think you're making a moral point, but what you forget is that nations do not have friends, only interests.
Especially in relations to countries we don't have mutual benefits or dont really need friends can turn into enemies overnight.
Thats been the way of the world all over the globe throughout the recorded history of time.
You totally are ignorant of the big picture.

You've got nothing here, Lebell. Your little right wing circlejerk claimed the moral high ground with the title of this thread. Now you're backpedalling like woah when it turns out your boys are doing the exact same thing your fundamentalist bogeymen are doing.



You believe in a war where only the military personel gets killed?
lol!

Note the cognitive dissonance here, anyone who might be reading this who isn't Lebell. Just a few lines ago he was calling people savages. I suppose it takes a particularly enlightened, reasonable westerner to talk about killing civilians as if it were a necessity.



Europe invented multiculturalism, and it doesnt work out well.
Personally i'm fiercely opposed to it, certain cultures just don't mix and will never meet, they will just clash.

This is another point of agreement you have with most white supremacist organizations. In fact, it's the official KKK party line. It's part of an idealogical repackaging these organizations made ever since they splintered into hundreds of local chapters.
Fortunately for everyone, yours is the ideology that's losing. Cultures are mixing. People of different cultures and lifestyles are talking more to each other, making friends, getting married and having kids.

By the way, back in the middle ages, while your ancestors were burning jews and uppity women, the Islamic state in Al-Andalus in what is now Spain was running a multicultural society, a refuge for persecuted Jews.



Islamic CULTURE is such a culture, my proof: almost any conflict in the world.

Now you're just throwing bullshit out because you feel like it. A quick overview of the twentieth century tells us that the three bloodiest conflicts were begun by christian nations. In fact, the history of Europe is full of wars, both between Europeans and of the colonialist conquest of other countries. The same is true of the USA. You have shit for proof of your statement.



A society can only stay strong if its homogenic, all the members of society must be willing to contribute to said society and do their part.
Importing medieval savages usually results in jihadist ghettos.
I say: burn down the 5th colonne we are building.

Another couple common points you have with most white supremacist organizations and with just plain old style fascists. The scapegoating of ethnic minorities is extremely common in fascist rhetoric.



I promise you in 30 years another American fleet will be storming the beaches of Normandy to liberate the Europeans from the Western Kaliphate, a situation brought upon us by left winged faggots such as yourself.

Paranoid fantasies. Another characteristic of fascists.



I had a daddy who had a say in it too.
You never had a father, right?

I did, actually. I loved him. I watched him die. I was raised by a hard working single mother in a racially and ethnically diverse city, who taught me the importance of meeting, understanding and befriending those who are different from me. I'm truly sorry you didn't have the same advantages.



you strike me as the typical fatherless momma's boy, you need a father figure dude.

Another common point with fascist groups: the glorification of the nuclear family structure, especially of fathers.



Also: funny how antifa fagg0ts always turn to nazi-esque measures when they encounter opposition: threats, deathwishes, degradation, cencorship....adolf would be proud.

It makes you a hypocrite to make that comparison when you just advocated burning down Muslim neighborhoods.
Also you just stepped straight into Godwin's law while at the same time being a lame homophobe. Quoteblock war is mine.

SFGOON
13th August 10, 12:26 AM
Hedgehogey and Lebell are fighting. It's like waching Hitler and Pol Pot taking turns kicking each other in the testicles.

It warms the cockles of my heart.

jvjim
13th August 10, 01:39 AM
The utter, complete, and unequivocal destruction of the Taliban's ability to govern in Afghanistan is pivotal in securing the average American's domestic civil liberties. The unintentional slaughter of civilians is a collateral necessity in this military endeavor. Ergo, HH's utilization of of his First Amendment right to free speech is a tacit endorsement of these massacred innocents.

Lebell
13th August 10, 04:39 AM
lol!
you gotta love Hedge's reaction: No it';s not! YOU're a racist! islam is awesome, why look at yourself, back in the MIDDLEAGES you werent that nice yourself.
I always find it amusing to see leftwing fagg0ts trying to jump through hoops n order to portray islam as a normal institution.

Lebell
13th August 10, 04:41 AM
Paranoid fantasies. Another characteristic of fascists.
you are aware i'm openly a suporter of national socialism aren't you?
its not like you have to sniff things out.
but i'm not hardcore though.

Hedgehogey
13th August 10, 05:03 AM
Doesn't surprise me in the least.

I'm just enjoying the delicious irony of a quasi-nazi calling people savage and backwards.

Shotgun Christening
13th August 10, 05:42 AM
The Islamic nation of Pakistan already has them.


Its also a daily concern that someone will take over Pakistan and use them. Thats why (one of the main reasons) we are so concerned with the government there now.

EuropIan
13th August 10, 05:56 AM
Nonono you don't get it.

ISLAM HAS NUKES!

RUN FOR THE HILLS!

WOLVERINES!

Cullion
13th August 10, 06:20 AM
The Islamic nation of Pakistan already has them.

Pakistan's current government is relatively secular. A Pakistan governed by the Taliban would be a whole different kettle of fish.

EuropIan
13th August 10, 06:23 AM
Yes I know.

Secular like America

Lebell
13th August 10, 09:24 AM
Doesn't surprise me in the least.

I'm just enjoying the delicious irony of a quasi-nazi calling people savage and backwards.

the usa went to the moon with nazi technology, lots of medical research from deathcamps have been used right after ww2.
i think the irony can be found in your camp.
antifa faggot.

Shotgun Christening
13th August 10, 02:20 PM
Nonono you don't get it.

ISLAM HAS NUKES!

RUN FOR THE HILLS!

WOLVERINES!


I dont think its the religion as much as it is the people who subvert that religion for their own purposes. Does the average Iranian give two shits about Israel....doubtful. Does the average Afghani give a fuck about Israel? I know that most dont.
Arab nations being the only countries to actually attack Israel one can safely assume that they would use nukes against them. Israel was prepared to use nukes against an invasion from the same countries.

Shotgun Christening
13th August 10, 02:25 PM
the usa went to the moon with nazi technology, lots of medical research from deathcamps have been used right after ww2.
i think the irony can be found in your camp.
antifa faggot.


So the ends justify the means?
The technology was learned and couldnt be unlearned so you might as well use it I guess.

The reason Im kind of against multi-culturalism is that I cant criticise another "culture" without being called a racist. I dont like the fact that your culture does "a" when my culture does "b". therefore I am a racist in many peoples eyes. A prime example being what was said to you in this thread.

"wut...ewe wunna leeve wit ur own kinda peepul? ewe razist azzhull."

Lebell
13th August 10, 04:57 PM
So the ends justify the means?
The technology was learned and couldnt be unlearned so you might as well use it I guess.



oh no no no...
these data werent common knowledge during or immediately after ww2, the moral decision could have been taken to destroy the data out of piety with the victims.
but they didnt.

AAAAAA
13th August 10, 06:19 PM
oh no no no...
these data werent common knowledge during or immediately after ww2, the moral decision could have been taken to destroy the data out of piety with the victims.
but they didnt.

Yeah, kinda like Gandhi should have destroyed railways in India right? Here you're just trolling, calling for a standard that nobody would ever postulate, not even the "antifa bulletins".

EuropIan
13th August 10, 06:33 PM
I dont think its the religion as much as it is the people who subvert that religion for their own purposes. Does the average Iranian give two shits about Israel....doubtful. Does the average Afghani give a fuck about Israel? I know that most dont.
Arab nations being the only countries to actually attack Israel one can safely assume that they would use nukes against them. Israel was prepared to use nukes against an invasion from the same countries.
Why are you talking about Iran?

HappyOldGuy
13th August 10, 11:10 PM
Why are you talking about Iran?

The same reason he is talking about the arabs in Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Iran.

Kein Haar
13th August 10, 11:23 PM
Hedgehogey and Lebell are fighting. It's like waching Hitler and Pol Pot taking turns kicking each other in the testicles.

It warms the cockles of my heart.

It's funny that it took the most apparently easy subject to kick to make Hedgehogey come out of his shell of really tense one-liners. *

*This is an important asterick. We know that Lebell is a troll. But it doesn't matter what we think. It matters that Hedge is calling Lebell as racist as if:

-It's the first time
-Lebell isn't intending for that to happen

Basically it's straight out of Art of War. Fake being retard so other guy becomes real retard.

Does Hedge have ass-burgers maybe?

The sports equivalents of Hedge's social skills:

[sxM5Vx82tr8

UxT46ROgI50

ZepzOtM9IfY

zPhsM_daifw

gyMnQerhbnE

i5RqhiGdP0c

Shotgun Christening
14th August 10, 12:11 AM
The same reason he is talking about the arabs in Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Iran.


Theres Arabs in those countries? I think you are mistaken.

HappyOldGuy
14th August 10, 12:14 AM
Theres Arabs in those countries? I think you are mistaken.

Then what arab country did you think you were talking about?

Hedgehogey
14th August 10, 12:22 AM
So I just got caught arguing ethics with the neighborhood creepy schizo?

SFGOON
14th August 10, 12:27 AM
Iran is full of Persians, who are for very sure not A-rabs.

Much like Brazilians are not Mexicans. Different language, different culture, different history....

And completely different horrible smell, too!! Wokka wokka!!!

SFGOON
14th August 10, 12:29 AM
So I just got caught arguing ethics with the neighborhood creepy schizo?
:
Arguing with Lebell is like opening a crate of fortune cookies written by Chinese retards, one by one.

And then trying to come up with counterpoints to what they say, one by one. In public.

bob
14th August 10, 12:37 AM
I'm pretty sure Lebell doesn't pass the Turing test.

Cullion
14th August 10, 03:06 AM
There are plenty of arabs in Iran.

Kein Haar
14th August 10, 04:01 AM
He also stale-mated Gary Kasparov.

Lebell
14th August 10, 04:13 AM
Yeah, kinda like Gandhi should have destroyed railways in India right? Here you're just trolling, calling for a standard that nobody would ever postulate, not even the "antifa bulletins".

wrong.
the railways didnt have the same deathtolls as (suposedly) the deathcamps had.
or perhaps you're mistaken the indian railways with the 'bridge over the river kwai'?

anyhow: did you know Ghandi was very racist towards black people? he hated them.
read some of the stuff he wrote in his south african years.

Lebell
14th August 10, 04:16 AM
So I just got caught arguing ethics with the neighborhood creepy schizo?

I think we both know who really is unerwunscht over here Hedge..

AAAAAA
14th August 10, 05:54 AM
wrong.
the railways didnt have the same deathtolls as (suposedly) the deathcamps had.


If anything, my example is more fitting than yours, not less, as rocket science wasn't developed examining how jews died in death camps. Railways to the opposite aren't exactly death-free labor.

Bur imagine the deathtoll was the same. Mental experiment, if you will.
They should have scrapped the railways then?



anyhow: did you know Ghandi was very racist towards black people? he hated them.
read some of the stuff he wrote in his south african years.

Sure. Our eastern Aryan brothers knew their shit. Access to Agarthi was in their turf after all.

Shotgun Christening
14th August 10, 07:53 AM
Then what arab country did you think you were talking about?


See how I started another paragraph in that post?


I dont think its the religion as much as it is the people who subvert that religion for their own purposes. Does the average Iranian give two shits about Israel....doubtful. Does the average Afghani give a fuck about Israel? I know that most dont.
Arab nations being the only countries to actually attack Israel one can safely assume that they would use nukes against them. Israel was prepared to use nukes against an invasion from the same countries.


Paragraphs are used when you change subjects from the previous text. I was saying that Iran and Afghanistan dont give a shit about Israel but Arab nations do.

EuropIan
14th August 10, 07:57 AM
I was talking about the Islamic Republic of Pakistan and their nukes.

EuropIan
14th August 10, 08:05 AM
*deleted post*

Fair enough..

Continue ranting about how we need to defend Israel from the camel-jockeys

Shotgun Christening
14th August 10, 08:07 AM
Fair enough..

Continue ranting about how we need to defend Israel from the camel-jockeys

I dont recall saying that we should.

EuropIan
14th August 10, 08:12 AM
If you can non-sequitur, so can I.

Shotgun Christening
14th August 10, 09:47 AM
If you can non-sequitur, so can I.


Please dont use words I have to google. It took me 10 minutes to figure out what "so can I " meant.

Elitist prick.:cry:

EuropIan
14th August 10, 10:09 AM
Are you an AmeriCAN or an AmeriCAN'T?

Shotgun Christening
14th August 10, 10:10 AM
Are you an AmeriCAN or an AmeriCAN'T?

Imma 'meriCAN

:gwbdance:

Spade: The Real Snake
14th August 10, 11:10 AM
So I just got caught arguing ethics with the neighborhood creepy schizo?
did you take the candy and the Gobots?

HappyOldGuy
14th August 10, 11:23 AM
S
Paragraphs are used when you change subjects from the previous text. I was saying that Iran and Afghanistan dont give a shit about Israel but Arab nations do.

Then what arab country are we worried about getting nukes?

SFGOON
14th August 10, 11:38 AM
All of them.

Ever since the DPRK detonated a "nuclear weapon" (honestly the yield was so low on their device it was more an amusing display of technical incompetence than a horrific display of atomic power,) we've been monitoring several South Asian and Middle Eastern states for transactions involving nuclear arms and Taepo-Dong 3 (LOL dong) missiles.

North Korea has not developed on single weapons platform it has not sold.

lant3rn
14th August 10, 11:41 AM
All of them.

Ever since the DPRK detonated a "nuclear weapon" (honestly the yield was so low on their device it was more an amusing display of technical incompetence than a horrific display of atomic power,) we've been monitoring several South Asian and Middle Eastern states for transactions involving nuclear arms and Taepo-Dong 3 (LOL dong) missiles.

North Korea has not developed on single weapons platform it has not sold.

wan't that only confirmed by a seizmograph in the region.

The weapon was detonated under ground from my understanding and their wasn't any confirmed reports of an actual nuclear detonation.

Lebell
14th August 10, 11:47 AM
I think Israel should always be aided and defended because its the biggest trolljob ever.
An entire nation created just to troll the arabic world....awesome.
Plus we can send our jews to there.
We all benefit.

HappyOldGuy
14th August 10, 11:48 AM
wan't that only confirmed by a seizmograph in the region.

The weapon was detonated under ground from my understanding and their wasn't any confirmed reports of an actual nuclear detonation.

There has also been another one. Plus radiation.

lant3rn
14th August 10, 12:29 PM
I think Israel should always be aided and defended because its the biggest trolljob ever.
An entire nation created just to troll the arabic world....awesome.
Plus we can send our jews to there.
We all benefit.

Nazis like yourself originally had the wrong idea;

You don't force them to into isolation, you let them do it to themselves.

The UN has the "real" final solution

lant3rn
14th August 10, 12:30 PM
There has also been another one. Plus radiation.

Wouldn't you would get radiation from a dirty bomb aswell?

Was the second visually confirmed?

HappyOldGuy
14th August 10, 12:34 PM
What would you visually confirm? Both produced earthquakes centered on the site of the test+radiation.

Even the wimpy one kiloton yield they got is still WAY too big for a conventional bomb of any type.

Lebell
14th August 10, 12:36 PM
Nazis like yourself originally had the wrong idea;

You don't force them to into isolation, you let them do it to themselves.

The UN has the "real" final solution

nazis> UN/ league of nations.

lant3rn
14th August 10, 12:46 PM
What would you visually confirm? Both produced earthquakes centered on the site of the test+radiation.

Even the wimpy one kiloton yield they got is still WAY too big for a conventional bomb of any type.

I thought maybe the secound test might have been done in a more open environment(island)

I also didn't know the calculated it to 1 kiloton.

Thanks for fixing my Ignorance.

Shotgun Christening
14th August 10, 02:23 PM
Then what arab country are we worried about getting nukes?


Egypt, Syria, Yemen, Somalia, Iran and few others, two of these have actually attacked Israel and one has openly said they wished the desruction of Israel.
But really any of them.

HappyOldGuy
14th August 10, 02:29 PM
So Somalia and Iran are arab countries?

Kein Haar
14th August 10, 03:32 PM
For god's sake, you know what he means.

HappyOldGuy
14th August 10, 03:37 PM
For god's sake, you know what he means.
His claim is that it's about arab and not about muslim, but he doesn't even know which is which.

Kein Haar
14th August 10, 03:47 PM
You just want him to admit it. He's not going to.

Move on.

They are brown, associated with allah in some fashion, and live around the indian ocean. There.

SFGOON
14th August 10, 11:24 PM
They live around the Persian Gulf, (ironically,) if they're A-rabs.

danno
15th August 10, 02:21 AM
i agree with what cullion has been saying here, and i've been saying it for years.


The utter, complete, and unequivocal destruction of the Taliban's ability to govern in Afghanistan is pivotal in securing the average American's domestic civil liberties.

wait, i don't see how this would actually secure your civil liberties.

terrorism is of very little real threat to your way of life, unless you make a big deal out of it and let it scare you into doing stupid shit.

the people who really lose in either case are afghan civilians.

Lebell
15th August 10, 03:42 AM
omg you people are so dumb sometimes.
iranians are arabs?
hahahahah

EuropIan
15th August 10, 04:05 AM
omg you people are so dumb sometimes.
iranians are arabs?
hahahahah
[citation needed]

Cullion
15th August 10, 04:47 AM
Iran has Arabs living there, and the President's a Jew. Sounds pretty cosmopolitan to me.

Shotgun Christening
15th August 10, 07:49 AM
So Somalia and Iran are arab countries?


http://www.arab.de/arabinfo/league.htm

Im pretty sure they think they are.

Im also pretty sure the Israelis know how to classify Arab countries better than you too.

http://www.israelsmessiah.com/palestinian_refugees/israel_vs_arabs.htm

.

HappyOldGuy
15th August 10, 12:19 PM
There are 30,000 arabs in a population of >10 million.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/so.html

Unless you want to call Michigan (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/arabpop.html) an arab state, you need to STFU.

Cullion
15th August 10, 12:25 PM
It's more like 300,000, but a lot of them speak Persian rather than Arabic now.

HappyOldGuy
15th August 10, 12:27 PM
It's more like 300,000, but a lot of them speak Persian rather than Arabic now.

Somalia, not Iran.

Cullion
15th August 10, 12:33 PM
Oh.

Well, Somalians have mixed arab/black ancestry and they did mostly use arabic script for a few centuries before Britain and Italy started carving up that part of the world and they switched to the Roman alphabet.

HappyOldGuy
15th August 10, 12:37 PM
Of course there is a strong cultural and historical connection. But they aren't ethnically arab, they don't speak arabic, and they don't follow arabic tribal customs.

They are also pretty fucking unlikely to get a nuclear weapon in the next two decades. What with the whole total social breakdown thing

Shotgun Christening
15th August 10, 01:09 PM
There are 30,000 arabs in a population of >10 million.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/so.html

Unless you want to call Michigan (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/arabpop.html) an arab state, you need to STFU.


Thanks for the map of Somalia...Ive been there so Im familiar with its stunning vistas and sandy beaches.

They are part of the Arab League. They align themselves with and call themselves an Arab country by doing this.
The Israelis (who we are also talking about) consider them an Arab nation because of this same reason.
Therefore they are an Arab nation. Simple logic.

Iran may not be an Arab nation but it doesnt change the fact that they align themselves against Israel which was my initial point.

Im not sure why you feel the need to tell me to STFU. I guess its because you cant admit that you were wrong. Maybe youre just a smarmy asshole who thinks he smarter than the rest of us. Im sure that a guy from California who has never been to either country knows more about it than Israel or the Somalians or me.

Since you arent capable of having a discourse without being intellectually disengenuous and an all around dick you go on the ignore list with HH.

have fun storming the castle.


:worship1:

jvjim
15th August 10, 01:59 PM
i agree with what cullion has been saying here, and i've been saying it for years.



wait, i don't see how this would actually secure your civil liberties.

terrorism is of very little real threat to your way of life, unless you make a big deal out of it and let it scare you into doing stupid shit.

the people who really lose in either case are afghan civilians.

Governmental sponsorship of terrorism leads to 9/11, 9/11 leads to the Patriot Act, and the Patriot Act leads to the dark side.

Shotgun Christening
15th August 10, 05:00 PM
Governmental sponsorship of terrorism leads to 9/11, 9/11 leads to the Patriot Act, and the Patriot Act leads to the dark side.


I can see the point in the Patriot Act but I cant overlook the dangers of it.

Cullion
15th August 10, 05:53 PM
9/11 leads to the Patriot Act

Only when your country is governed by authoritarian loons.

HappyOldGuy
15th August 10, 06:02 PM
Why are people obsessed with the patriot act. It's almost completely harmless.

The authoritarian loons didn't even use it. They just invented an all powerful executive authority to do anything they thought was vaguely relevant based on their authority to conduct the war against terror.

An authority which the current admin is probably not abusing, but has not repudiated.

danno
15th August 10, 07:35 PM
Governmental sponsorship of terrorism leads to 9/11, 9/11 leads to the Patriot Act, and the Patriot Act leads to the dark side.

i see what you're saying, but this is the "scared into doing stupid shit" part i was talking about. when you do things which harm yourself, you've just made the terrorist act a success. that's the point of it.

Ajamil
15th August 10, 10:23 PM
There are 30,000 arabs in a population of >10 million.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/so.html

Unless you want to call Michigan (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/arabpop.html) an arab state, you need to STFU.I think we all missed an important post here. We need to make sure Michigan doesn't get its hands on any nukes.

FickleFingerOfFate
18th August 10, 04:28 AM
I think we all missed an important post here. We need to make sure Michigan doesn't get its hands on any nukes.


Then don't pay attention to Fermi 2.


(Give me 4 hours notice before the NWO invades, so I can get out of the zone.)

resolve
5th September 10, 12:13 PM
oldman when were you in Somalia?

Lebell
5th September 10, 12:37 PM
he was that dude that got dragged through the streets in his underwear.
on tv they said it was a dead american, but he was alive enough to endure the next 20 hours of...man on man action.
foxnews is weird about gays so they said it was a dead american.
oldman doesnt like to speak about it tho.

FickleFingerOfFate
6th September 10, 01:01 PM
That's how Lebell gets dates.

Waylay a serviceman,

Drag them until they're non-responsive,

And then, hot man on proto-zombie action.

:biggrin:

Lebell
6th September 10, 01:06 PM
i eat u.s. marines.
well, only the female ones.

i fucked one who was here during leave from rammstein or wherever in germany.
they're not as fit as i imagined.
she sucked good cock though.

FickleFingerOfFate
6th September 10, 01:10 PM
i eat u.s. marines.

i fucked one who was here during leave from rammstein or wherever in germany.
i ...sucked good cock though.

d8x968FQiqs

Lebell
6th September 10, 01:54 PM
uhuh.
keep dreaming.

SFGOON
6th September 10, 03:26 PM
THAT'S RIGHT SUCKER! I JUST MADE YOU OPEN THIS FUCKIN' THREAD TO READ THIS BULLSHIT!

IT'S SO MUCH FUN HAVING YOUR ASS IN CHECK! WHO'S MY BITCH? YOU'RE MY BITCH!!

HappyOldGuy
6th September 10, 03:30 PM
Sampling the homework again?

Cullion
6th September 10, 03:58 PM
If goon goes that route I expect it's going to involve a Jesse Ventura skullet and a loud Hawaiian shirt. He'll probably wear trippy glasses though.

Lebell
6th September 10, 04:00 PM
I wouldnt let goon have my back in a brawl in a gaybar.
The loudmouths are always the ones who freeze up, or ' have to check up on additional intel'.

;-)

Cullion
6th September 10, 04:04 PM
What would you and goon be doing in the gaybar ?

Lebell
6th September 10, 04:09 PM
well i probably would go to the gaybar to convince goon to stop sucking cock and do his wife regularly again cos i sick of her trying to hook up with me.
then goons boyfriend would make a ' dont steal my man' scene and things would kick off.

HappyOldGuy
6th September 10, 04:11 PM
Goon would probably be collecting samples for his search for the gay cure.

Lebell would just be blowing sailors like any other night.

Lebell
6th September 10, 04:23 PM
it's a free country and i pay taxes like everybody else hog, you fascist pig!

Cullion
6th September 10, 04:28 PM
i pay taxes like everybody else

lolwhut?

Lebell
6th September 10, 04:32 PM
lolwhut?

it's like when the governmunt takes money from you to give to black people.

Spade: The Real Snake
6th September 10, 10:52 PM
THAT'S RIGHT SUCKER! I JUST MADE YOU OPEN THIS FUCKIN' THREAD TO READ THIS BULLSHIT!

IT'S SO MUCH FUN HAVING YOUR ASS IN CHECK! WHO'S MY BITCH? YOU'RE MY BITCH!!
I'll keep figuring out ways to make you post on Bullshido.

AAAhmed46
20th September 10, 01:40 AM
I can only think of one reason to have troops stationed in the area that I support, and that is that I don't like the idea of the Taliban getting control of Pakistan's nuclear weapons. Whether it's within our means to police the world by stationing substantial numbers of troops near every regime we consider nutty that's about to acquire some form of nuclear capability is a very sketchy question. Unfortunately I think it's simply unaffordable at the moment.

I certainly don't believe we can transform their society and make them send their girls to school this way.

Think thats more paranoid speak though. I can't see them getting htat powerful.

After the taliban went apeshit in pakistan recently, their popularity went way down in their own supporters. They pissed off alot of people.

That said, pakistan has always sucked ass as a demoncracy.

AAAhmed46
20th September 10, 03:04 AM
O
ne of the most important methods of propaganda isn't simply that your persuaded one way or another on a particular issue, it's manipulation of which issues are being debated in the first place.

Fucking gold man.

Lebell
20th September 10, 03:07 AM
i'm a master myself at that last part.

AAAhmed46
20th September 10, 03:21 AM
No it won't.
See, you're thinking /asserting this as a westener.
People over there really don't care about these kinda shows.

They are more concerned with their papaver crops, where to find 8 year old boys for quality time, and whether their donkeys last another winter.


Unfortunatly too true.

Though i do think education is the answer. More than half those guys are illiterate(yes, woman dont go to school in afganistan, and neither do most men) and their only sense of the world, religion, culture, psychology is what the villiage elder or sheik tells them, what daddy tells them.

Somehow they need another soarce of info.

I have a friend who went and served in afganistan. The issue isn't kabul or any of the cities.

He said there are night clubs and all sorts of shit happening in kabul and cities. It's outside thats really fucked.

Lebell
20th September 10, 03:49 AM
Unfortunatly too true.

Though i do think education is the answer. More than half those guys are illiterate(yes, woman dont go to school in afganistan, and neither do most men) and their only sense of the world, religion, culture, psychology is what the villiage elder or sheik tells them, what daddy tells them.

Somehow they need another soarce of info.

I have a friend who went and served in afganistan. The issue isn't kabul or any of the cities.

He said there are night clubs and all sorts of shit happening in kabul and cities. It's outside thats really fucked.

IMO the western dudes keep failing at understanding what makes those guys tick.

I'd suggest really simple forms of setting up programmes.
First of all, you invite the local elders/bosses/mullahs and what not for a little soiree, you kiss some asses, stroke their ego's.
very important.
make em feel big and powerfull.

then you set up very basic agricultural programs like: 'donkeys, besides fucking them what could we do more for their wellbeing?'

then graduately you include basic writing and reading, cos when you hand out medication or cropseeds, wouldnt it be handy if you'd know what the label says?

girls get homekeeping training, but again, they beter learn maths and reading aswell cos it will make them better wifes for their husbands.

you sneak it in there.

you must link the education with practical needs of the people, so when the taliban starts burning their shit down the people really get pissed off.


But no, the UN comes in with universitydegrees and big ideological abstract ideas, and are surprised nobody gives a rat's ass when insurgents burn their rojects down.

you gotta now people in order to manipulate them.
the UN can send in all the eggheads in the world for 2 centuries and little to nothing wil change.

AAAhmed46
20th September 10, 04:18 AM
Europe invented multiculturalism, and it doesnt work out well.
Personally i'm fiercely opposed to it, certain cultures just don't mix and will never meet, they will just clash.
Islamic CULTURE is such a culture, my proof: almost any conflict in the world.
A society can only stay strong if its homogenic, all the members of society must be willing to contribute to said society and do their part.
Importing medieval savages usually results in jihadist ghettos.
I say: burn down the 5th colonne we are building.
I promise you in 30 years another American fleet will be storming the beaches of Normandy to liberate the Europeans from the Western Kaliphate, a situation brought upon us by left winged faggots such as yourself.
Only a europian perspective. Look at north america. The country is founded on immigrants, no one is homogenius. And people get along alot better. Even more so in canada.

The reason is, we made sure teh muslims and hindus and sikhs that came into our country were not yokels. Oh yeah, there was your occasional faisal shazad or toronto 17. Yes those were there. But now lets contrast this with other issues not faced in europe. In north america, the integration is greater because you don't have people go into low income housing trying to call for special treatement, because the community is too well dispesed for it.

Now lets look at joooooz.

When they first entered europian culture, there was horrid culture classes. And unlike today, the europians were not so accomodating. So jews got the shit kicked otu of them. But now, lets fast forward a few centuries and they seemed to have figured out how to adapt to host countries as a diaspora.

Maybe teh same will happen with muslims, or maybe not.

From the perspective of an american like hedge or a canadian pakistani like myself, it's difficult to relate. Because our two countries lack the racial and cultural homogenious population you have.

To us...having a homogenious culture isn't so necessary. We never lived in one, me espeicallya s i have both eastern and western influence on my cultural outlook and upbringing.

Maybe your a little too sure about something that may not pan out. Or go the way you predict.

AAAhmed46
20th September 10, 04:28 AM
If you stepped up the war in Afghanistan without regard for the common American sense of right and wrong, do you believe that the terrorist threat to the US would be reduced?

I don't believe that to be the case because I think that would require a similar campaign in almost every other Muslim country simultaneously, combined with draconian restrictions on the movements of muslims into and around the US, and existing Muslim citizens at home. I think this is completely beyond American fiscal resources, and would be politically impossible.

That's why I think the west shouldn't be involved in occupying middle eastern countries and we're going to have to find another solution to the problem. I think we'd be better off if we'd never gone in the first place.

There's one thing in the region I am worried about, that I think we do need to do something about. I don't want the Taliban taking over Pakistan and getting their hands on nuclear weapons. I don't want our governments to try and occupy Pakistan militarily to prevent this, I'm certain it wouldn't work.

I don't know what to do about that.


There are people in the states, geller and spencer among them, that want just that. A constant, military attack on nearly every muslim country one by one and to restrict the freedoms of muslims withint the united states, Spencer said "we should pass laws taht make it so hard to practice islam here that they will want to leave or change religions."

Not feasable, but people honestly want that done.

That said, i really doubt the taliban can take over pakistan and get nukes. They may fight together, but based upon what i have read on terrorist interrogations and confessions, seems like we have a bunch of men with a common enemy but different goals.

THey are too split up and scattered to be able to do anything of substance.

Some truly would nuke the U.S. and establish a caliphate. Others view their fight as defensive, and have no expantionist ideals, though certainly will kill civilians.
And others, surprisingly, do it for cash. As stated earlier in this thread, we got poor afgans, who view even meager money as worth enough to setup an IED for militants.

Problem is, according not Nir Rosen and scott taylor, it's impossible to figure out taliban or even al-queerda motives because the organizations are just too damn scattered and varient in their goals.

The soldier i talked to, told me about how they would catch poor retards trying to setup IEDS for meager cash as well, not something i just read. Not even zealots, just greeding corrupt fuckers who don't think about the long run.

AAAhmed46
20th September 10, 04:32 AM
Agreed



Unfortunately I dont think there is another soultion.



Thats a tricky one isnt it? Its one of the reasons that we dont want Iran to have nukes.
The entire Middle East is a problem for us. A lot of it is of our own making.

Iran has wanted nukes since they fought with the Iraqis. The thinking is that if they got nukes, no dirty arabs will want to mess with the civilized persians.

Not it's extended to angry jews.

Remember when Khatami was in power? Everyone said "Pff he may be a reformer, but he has no real power in the government" but when ahmedinijad came into power, everyone said "HOLY SHIT, he has the POWAAA"

Remember the 100 000 candle light vigil in iran after 9/11? Even the ayotollahs(blah spelling) wanted a closer relationship to the west. I think they see that as impossible now, but they are not stupid enough to try nuking anyone. Including isreal.

If you want to see social change in the middle east, focus the propoganda on Iran of all places.

AAAhmed46
20th September 10, 04:40 AM
I know lebell trolls. But i also know he often throws kernals of his own true opinions into threads.

So often, i do end up trying to respond to fortune cookies written by chinese retards.

Im always guessing.

He's a smart fucking guy, but frusterating to have a thread discussion, because the troll and the real get damn mixed up all the time.

AAAhmed46
20th September 10, 04:40 AM
I think Israel should always be aided and defended because its the biggest trolljob ever.
An entire nation created just to troll the arabic world....awesome.
Plus we can send our jews to there.
We all benefit.

Perfect example.

AAAhmed46
20th September 10, 04:45 AM
Aww fuck it this thread is too long.

But ill finish off with what i read last.

Somalia can't do shit, it doesn't have it's own shit together.

Egypt? When gaza was being invaded, more people came out to mourn the death/suicide of a pop singer than march and show solidarity for the palistinians. In the KSA a bunch of pro-palistine protesters came out and got arrested and even gunned down(didn't see that on CNN and FOX huh?)

They talk tough against isreal, but won't do shit.

AAAhmed46
20th September 10, 04:50 AM
i'm a master myself at that last part.

Fuck you sun tzu

Lebell
20th September 10, 06:05 AM
silence, kuffaar!

AAAhmed46
20th September 10, 06:23 AM
You do muay thai right? Show me your rising viking knee technique.

Lebell
20th September 10, 06:34 AM
my what?
lolol!