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Phrost
13th July 10, 05:17 PM
http://www.Sociocide.com/images/fgm/1.jpgToday's lesson in Cultural Relativism is brought to you by Indonesia. Indonesia, leading the world in dragons and mutilated young girls.

Warning: the following images are completely safe for work. However, they are not safe for your blood pressure, your love for humanity, or any throwable/smashable objects within arm's reach.

I'm not kidding.



http://www.Sociocide.com/images/fgm/7.jpg
Welcome to the surgery room!

http://www.Sociocide.com/images/fgm/2.jpg
A 9 month old girl waits her turn to be circumcised.

http://www.Sociocide.com/images/fgm/3.jpg
Getting ready for the procedure.

http://www.Sociocide.com/images/fgm/4.jpg
Another girl being prepared for the procedure. Notice all the grown women laughing it up.

http://www.Sociocide.com/images/fgm/10.jpg
Oh no sweetie, this won't hurt a bit.

http://www.Sociocide.com/images/fgm/5.jpg

http://www.Sociocide.com/images/fgm/8.jpg

http://www.Sociocide.com/images/fgm/9.jpg


I cannot express how angry this makes me. Consequently, I'm not going to comment any further until I calm down.

kracker
13th July 10, 05:45 PM
Fuck cultural relativism. Any culture that practices this is primitive, backwards, and in dire need of hostile imperialist takeover by a Western nation. Some cultures just fucking suck and anyone denying it needs to extricate their heads from their asses. Speaking of which, fuck the retarded hippies and "feminists" (seriously, I've seen this practice defended by women who identify as feminists which I find mystifying) who try to defend this practice. They should have their vaginas (or balls if male) ripped apart and see how much they like it.

Truculent Sheep
13th July 10, 05:50 PM
The direct involvement of women makes it even more repellent - a sort of high treason toward their gender combined with an utter betrayal of the young and vulnerable.

Adouglasmhor
13th July 10, 05:53 PM
Fucking savages. In parts of Africa some Animists, Muslims and Xtians do this shit and it's fucking brutal primitive crap.

Truculent Sheep
13th July 10, 05:55 PM
The Indonesian angle adds horror though. Remember this is (supposedly) a rapidly developing nation with ever-increasing living standards and quite a lot of access to Higher Education. All of which begs the fucking question - why?

Cullion
13th July 10, 06:01 PM
So a dude can be sure that a girl is a virgin when he takes her for a wife, that's why.

fes_fsa
13th July 10, 06:07 PM
what exactly do they do?

Truculent Sheep
13th July 10, 06:10 PM
So a dude can be sure that a girl is a virgin when he takes her for a wife, that's why.

Doubtful. You can technically have sex with a mutilated woman and then sew her up afterwards, which is common practice. It's more an expression of rampant gynaephobia combined with a deep subconscious need to control the sexuality of children.

Kiko
13th July 10, 06:10 PM
This link explains it. There's also one on wiki, but ...

http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs241/en/

Those photos are very disturbing, especially since other women are involved. Women should be helping their daughters to be emotionally and sexually healthy, not ripping out their femininity, physically and psychologically.

Cullion
13th July 10, 06:11 PM
Cut off the clitoris and sew the labia together so the hole left is just big enough to pee through, usually.

That way the guy can be sure that he's the first in, on the wedding night.

Cullion
13th July 10, 06:12 PM
Doubtful. You can technically have sex with a mutilated woman and then sew her up afterwards, which is common practice. It's more an expression of rampant gynaephobia combined with a deep subconscious need to control the sexuality of children.

But consciously they think they're protecting the girl's virginity until her wedding night.

Ajamil
13th July 10, 06:20 PM
Is it that it's done to the young? Is it that they don't opt for the procedure? Why are these OK? Or are they?

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_SqhhJb_P3Kk/SYBylmIgh9I/AAAAAAAAErE/6dwOEMvnuA8/s400/body+modification.jpg

http://www.fugly.com/media/IMAGES/WTF/body-modification-forehead-implants.jpg

http://www.troodi.com/files/c84c8a466c46.jpg

http://www.modern-savage.com/body_mods/images/devon.jpg

What about lip discs? That's started on a person before the commonly understood range of consenting age. What about neck stretching?

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3230/3129829677_43fc7762b8.jpg
http://images.teamsugar.com/files/upl1/10/104169/17_2008/71432624.preview.jpg

People might see this as a defense of FGM, but I don't defend it or the multicultural plea. I want to show that this isn't simply covered by young people having no say in what happens to their body. The sexual nature of FGM is greatly enhancing how much people think this is sick and needs to be stopped.


Women should be helping their daughters to be emotionally and sexually healthy, not ripping out their femininity, physically and psychologically. This part, to me, IS the cultural part. In a nation where FGM is accepted and rampant, those without it would be deviants rejected by society.

Cullion
13th July 10, 06:27 PM
In terms of personal taste, I find all of the images above revolting. However, I have three specific moral problems with female circumcision:-

i) It's done to the unwilling young.

ii) It often makes the girls first sexual experience extremely painful and frightening.

iii) It's being done simply to assuage the man-child sexual jealousy complexes of retards.

littleoldme
13th July 10, 06:28 PM
Female genital cutting ranges from a tiny, symbolic cut of the clitoral hood (arguably the equivalent of male circumcision) at one extreme and at the other is so called "Pharaohonic circumcision" aka Infibulation, which is effectively the complete cutting away everything there including the outer and inner labia and sewing the remaining flesh together to leave a tiny hole.

I don't know how to format the spoiler code thing but the wiki article has a line drawing illustrating the differences http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:FGC_Types.jpg

I am personally uncomfortable, to say the least, about any kind of genital cutting of any child, male or female. It just seems very, very wrong to me.

However it is also undeniable to me that there is a huge difference between a tiny cut of the clitoral hood and a horrific procedure like infibulation.

I think it is important to be clear about the nature of the cutting before getting too excited. I sense that it is a failure to do this that leads some accusations of cultural imperialism.

I saw a horrific documentary about FGC in Somalia. Women who had not undergone infibulation were not considered decent or marriageable. It was simply not an option for girls to not be mutilated.

The tendency for young girls to be married off aged 13 or 14, combined with the genital cutting (infibulation) meant that many girls gave birth before their bodies were ready and that they had terrible problems in labour resulting in fistula.

Fistula is where the wall between the vagina and anus or bladder tears and, if not treated (as is likely in Somalia) leaves the poor girl doubly incontinent and a social outcast for the test of her life.

Apologies for adding that last bit. I just thought that you might not be quite angry enough about this yet.

A safe for work link to a charity offering further information here
http://www.forwarduk.org.uk/key-issues/fistula

If you are feeling like you would like to help young women and girls to receive restorative surgery for fistula then you can donate to the fistula foundation
http://www.fistulafoundation.org/

CoffeeFan
13th July 10, 06:46 PM
Out of curiosity for those wanting to nuke an entire culture, what is you view on male circumcision?

Here something I heard on NPR a while back, it's an interesting interview on the subject:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=126831142

HappyOldGuy
13th July 10, 08:03 PM
As oldman pointed out, there are degrees. Some of the practices are minfuckingly awful. Others are pretty cosmetic.

That is also true of male circumsision practices by the way.

But the level of hysteria on this subject is giggleworthy.

cause you know, hysteria.

WarPhalange
13th July 10, 08:57 PM
lol uterus right?

Ajamil
13th July 10, 09:32 PM
Naw, fallopian tubes are where the humor's at. It looks too much like gallop; makes me wonder if the egg is falloping down the tube, and what sort of motion/noise that makes.

But back to horrific child rearing - is it easier to go after physical rather then psychological abuse? What about a culture that impresses the need to excel and be the best into their kids so much that failure at preteen ages is met with suicide attempts? (http://www.japantoday.com/category/kuchikomi/view/childrens-depression-and-suicide-a-worsening-problem)

Kein Haar
13th July 10, 09:46 PM
I can't tell you how many genitalia and fetuses my wang has mutilated and jarred-loose, respectively.

This is a yawner.

ICY
14th July 10, 12:40 AM
On the one hand, I can understand the wanting to stop girls from being slutty and cutting off the clit is meh to me...but on the other hand, I think cutting off the labia and whatever else and sewing everything shut is going way too far and is just gross and...fucking why?

AAAhmed46
14th July 10, 02:13 AM
In indonesia? DAAAAMNNN

Heard an aussie social worker talk about how this takes place by some australian aboriginal reserves(needs work cited)

I know africa it's really common. Egypt kind of, since it's attached to africa.

Whats really strange about this is that: Though it's done for the sake of mens preferences, seems woman are the biggest advocates of this thing, hell done by woman usually.

AAAhmed46
14th July 10, 02:16 AM
http://www.Sociocide.com/images/fgm/1.jpgToday's lesson in Cultural Relativism is brought to you by Indonesia. Indonesia, leading the world in dragons and mutilated young girls.

Warning: the following images are completely safe for work. However, they are not safe for your blood pressure, your love for humanity, or any throwable/smashable objects within arm's reach.

I'm not kidding.



http://www.Sociocide.com/images/fgm/7.jpg
Welcome to the surgery room!

http://www.Sociocide.com/images/fgm/2.jpg
A 9 month old girl waits her turn to be circumcised.

http://www.Sociocide.com/images/fgm/3.jpg
Getting ready for the procedure.

http://www.Sociocide.com/images/fgm/4.jpg
Another girl being prepared for the procedure. Notice all the grown women laughing it up.

http://www.Sociocide.com/images/fgm/10.jpg
Oh no sweetie, this won't hurt a bit.

http://www.Sociocide.com/images/fgm/5.jpg

http://www.Sociocide.com/images/fgm/8.jpg

http://www.Sociocide.com/images/fgm/9.jpg


I cannot express how angry this makes me. Consequently, I'm not going to comment any further until I calm down.


Jesus fucking christ. All woman too, thats whats most fucked. And in indonesia, which raises more questions.

Big Dozer
14th July 10, 02:18 AM
I honestly feel nauseated by these photos.

AAAhmed46
14th July 10, 02:19 AM
You and many others.

Toby Christensen
14th July 10, 02:54 AM
Utterly vile. Utterly, utterly vile.

I remember reading an account on how women who had been tortured in this manner were embittered and angry and vengeful.

The scribe wrote like he knew.

Anyone who interferes with another's sex organs should be treated like the rapist they are.

Steve
14th July 10, 02:57 AM
Is this not the face of the "devil?"

http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i141/forstevee/ScreenHunter_01Jul140045-1.gif

I have to say that women can be as evil as men, even without their physical strength.

Or worse.

Steve
14th July 10, 03:01 AM
On the one hand, I can understand the wanting to stop girls from being slutty and cutting off the clit is meh to me...but on the other hand, I think cutting off the labia and whatever else and sewing everything shut is going way too far and is just gross and...fucking why?

Uh, cause they are supposed to suffer from it all getting torn open as testament that they hadn't been banged before.

Shotgun Christening
14th July 10, 05:10 AM
As oldman pointed out, there are degrees. Some of the practices are minfuckingly awful. Others are pretty cosmetic.

Wasnt me.



That is also true of male circumsision practices by the way.

Im all for me being circumcised. So is MOM34. I have a hard enough time getting her to touch it when its nice and cut, no way she is touching it with a dirty ass hood over it.



But the level of hysteria on this subject is giggleworthy.

cause you know, hysteria.

I was more concerned with grown ass men wanting 13/14 year old virgins. Thats disturbing all by itself.

Cullion
14th July 10, 05:31 AM
It's a social norm in many societies, including ours until about 6-8 generations ago.

Shotgun Christening
14th July 10, 05:37 AM
It's a social norm in many societies, including ours until about 6-8 generations ago.


When life expectancy was 50.

littleoldme
14th July 10, 05:38 AM
Is this not the face of the "devil?"

http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i141/forstevee/ScreenHunter_01Jul140045-1.gif

I have to say that women can be as evil as men, even without their physical strength.

Or worse.

It is not the face of the devil.

It is the face of a woman who genuinely believes that she is helping her daughter, even though her daughter is being mutilated.

This woman's mother will have done the same thing to her and, unless the cycle is stopped, this little girl will grow up to do the same thing to her own daughters.

There are many examples of deluded mothers sending their children to be abused, sadly it happens all the time in religious cults (see Children of God / Gregorian Bivolaru and MISA).

There are also plenty of examples of people who have been abused who idealise their abusers and who also go on to abuse others (see "identification with the aggressor").

One obvious example is that many men who were sexually and otherwise abused in the English public school system subsequently sent their sons to the same schools, knowing that they too could also be abused.

For another example you could read the anthropological study "Guardians of the Flutes"

I can relate to people's concern and disgust over these photos and what is depicted therein but calling people "the devil" seems to be unhelpful.

Just my 2p worth

Ajamil
14th July 10, 05:45 AM
Whats really strange about this is that: Though it's done for the sake of mens preferences, seems woman are the biggest advocates of this thing, hell done by woman usually.So it's a more physically traumatizing part of the cosmetic spectrum then. Like high heels or whale bone corsets or foot binding.

Cullion beat me to the 13/14 response. Aren't there European countries where 14 is legal? Is 16 the lowest there?

littleoldme
14th July 10, 05:57 AM
If adult people want to mutilate their bodies then it is their choice.

Mutilating children is a completely different thing.

Foot binding no longer happens in China and this is obviously a very good thing.

Painful initiations into the world of adulthood are very common in pre-industrial societies and males are expected to endure them without complaint

a couple of examples

7hQEJIaciRM

ZGIZ-zUvotM

I am not in any way supporting female genital cutting, just wanting to post some contextual material.

littleoldme
14th July 10, 06:07 AM
Out of curiosity for those wanting to nuke an entire culture, what is you view on male circumcision?

Here something I heard on NPR a while back, it's an interesting interview on the subject:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=126831142

I think that this post is important

IMO we have to think of realistic ways to prevent genital mutilation and if the leaders of societies seek the help of doctors so that they can preserve their cultures whilst avoiding the worst mutilations then I think that, as a first step, this has to be at least considered.

A friend used to work in a community project with many Ethiopian and Somali women and all of them had been genitally mutilated and all supported the practice.

When it became illegal here in the UK the women would simply send their daughters on "holiday" back home where the procedure would be carried out.

The elders in their community felt that the concern of English people and the UK authorities were expressions of racism and cultural imperialism.

The question then becomes (IMO) how can the girls in these cultures be protected?

I can 100% appreciate why some people will be adamant that all genital cutting is wrong (it is my own opinion) however if your priority is to save girls from mutilation and one option that is acceptable to elders is for a symbolic, tiny cut of the clitoral hood then this has to be at least thought about as a possibility.

Ajamil
14th July 10, 06:35 AM
The manhood rites all are about overcoming real or imagined weakness. It is a test of of triumphing over pain. I don't think there's a correlating theme behind what is done to the females. It seems to start and end as a protection of chastity.

Also, directed Toby but for anyone, is it any better if the mutilation isn't done to the genitals? What about scarring rites (http://www.larskrutak.com/articles/Benin/index.html)?
http://www.larskrutak.com/articles/Benin/14.jpg

http://www.larskrutak.com/articles/Benin/16.jpg


When a boy or girl reaches two or three years of age, an intricate series of lines are cut into their faces with an iron tool made by the blacksmith. The elders say that a child without these markings is not “human” and if they don’t receive the cuts, or if the child dies before he or she is able to receive their tribal markings, they are not buried in the village cemetery because they are “not Bétamarribé” in the eyes of the ancestors.

My friend Robért, who like me is 37 years old, said that he didn’t receive his facial cuts called yenongale until he was nine years old, which is rare by Bétamarribé standards. He explained that whenever a visiting scarist came to his village (once a year) he was always sick so he had to wait. Over the years he witnessed the skin-cutting of many babies and he told his parents that he didn’t want to go through with it. But his parents knew that he would encounter a lot of trouble finding a wife and that he would not be formally initiated into tribe if he was not scarred. So when the legendary scarmaster N’dah Yerime came to town from Koaba twenty-eight years ago, Robért was forcibly held down by his uncle, brother, and father while the scarmaster’s iron tool carved open his face. All the while, Robért screamed profanities at the scarmaster and threatened that he was going to beat him when his work was completed!

littleoldme
14th July 10, 06:41 AM
The manhood rites all are about overcoming real or imagined weakness. It is a test of of triumphing over pain. I don't think there's a correlating theme behind what is done to the females. It seems to start and end as a protection of chastity.
Not entirely true

For some tribal societies the male initiation rites aim to purify the male body of polluting female influence.

In some societies FGC is perceived as removing a symbolic (or in some cases actual or potential) penis from the female body.

In both examples the initiation rite aims to restore masculinity and femininity respectively of initiates from a childhood state where gender identity is perceived to be compromised by the inclusion of aspects of the opposite sex.

littleoldme
14th July 10, 07:25 AM
Re tribal scarring:

If adults freely decide to endure it then I support their decision.

I do not support any kind of cutting or other physical abuse of children.

How one actually prevents such abuses is another thing entirely.

On a bit of a tangent; I think that males often unconsciously seek out some kind of validating rite of passage ritual when they reach adolescence.

If their culture does not honour their transition from boyhood to manhood with suitable rituals and (very importantly IMO) societal recognition of their change in status then boys will attempt to navigate such transitions themselves and may engage in self-destructive and / or antisocial behaviour as a result.

Tattoos, ordeals and drug taking as part of gang membership could arguably be perceived as dysfunctional attempts at navigating the liminal space between boyhood and manhood.

Put simply if we as a society do not honour the transition from boyhood to manhood then there are plenty of cults and criminals who will fill the void and in doing so exploit and abuse young men who might otherwise have gone on to have productive, meaningful lives.

Truculent Sheep
14th July 10, 07:26 AM
But consciously they think they're protecting the girl's virginity until her wedding night.

Consciously, they're mutilating little girls. Everything else is bullshit.

Truculent Sheep
14th July 10, 07:29 AM
Cut off the clitoris and sew the labia together so the hole left is just big enough to pee through, usually.

That way the guy can be sure that he's the first in, on the wedding night.

Again, can be opened and sewn up time and again. Some married men do this all the time so they can keen re-enacting the experience.

Cullion
14th July 10, 07:35 AM
Again, can be opened and sewn up time and again. Some married men do this all the time so they can keen re-enacting the experience.

Well, that's different.

Truculent Sheep
14th July 10, 08:07 AM
Or profoundly fucked up.

littleoldme
14th July 10, 08:53 AM
Interesting paper here
Clitoridectomy: A Nineteenth Century Answer to Masturbation ~ by John Duffy
http://www.fgmnetwork.org/articles/duffy.htm

also here
http://www.msmagazine.com/oct00/makingthecut.html

Just in case anyone thought that FGC could never happen in the UK or the US

TheMightyMcClaw
14th July 10, 09:04 AM
I have to say that women can be as evil as men, even without their physical strength.

Or worse.

This is also a good example of the subjugation of women being largely carried out by women, something which I feel like is lost on a lot of modern Americans.
I have pretty similar feelings about male circumcision, for one of the main reasons that Cullion mentioned: it's a mutilation ritual that's carried out on the unwilling young.

Shotgun Christening
14th July 10, 12:47 PM
Consciously, they're mutilating little girls. Everything else is bullshit.



This is the thread winner.

EvilSteve
14th July 10, 01:14 PM
Cut off the clitoris and sew the labia together so the hole left is just big enough to pee through, usually.

That way the guy can be sure that he's the first in, on the wedding night.

There are, I think, multiple cultural occurrences of this for different reasons. The one most people think of is prevalent in Muslim African societies and is exactly as Cullion described. I read an article some time ago which said a popular honeymoon hotel in Sudan is located next to a hospital for medical emergencies resulting from these women having sex. Given the relative poverty of Sudan and how few people there probably go on honeymoons may give you an idea of how pervasive this practice is.

There is another form, and I assume this is where the practice started, and that is with traditional African societies (in this case traditional meaning non-modern, tribal) I was shown a documentary on this when I was in 7th grade (yeah, 7th grade)- they interviewed an African tribeswoman who had this done to her as a coming of age ritual, and was agonizing over whether she should do it to her daughter. She didn't want to, but the cultural pressure was this: life is hard, so it helps to have an experience that is so horrifying that everything else seems copable by comparison.

Either way, it's a horrific practice that makes foot binding look mild by comparison and it should be stamped out as a revolting human rights abuse.

</rant>

AAAhmed46
14th July 10, 02:57 PM
Im surprised at how wide spread it is. Even reaching indonesia!

And along with the statements of the social worker before, wikipedia also has an entry on this shit happening in Rural australian communities. It's rather bizarre.

Truculent Sheep
14th July 10, 04:24 PM
Interesting paper here
Clitoridectomy: A Nineteenth Century Answer to Masturbation ~ by John Duffy
http://www.fgmnetwork.org/articles/duffy.htm

also here
http://www.msmagazine.com/oct00/makingthecut.html

Just in case anyone thought that FGC could never happen in the UK or the US


But these are extreme examples of a brief period of lunacy in the West. Quite unlike, for example, centuries upon centuries of common practice. Moral equivalence is never a wise move.

Cullion
14th July 10, 04:34 PM
Yeah, this is no time for moral relativism.

I hope we all stand together in our firm belief that we are outraged, and yet utterly incapable of or willing to stamp this out.

Harpy
14th July 10, 04:51 PM
Phrost - you're not finding out about this now are you?

I can't do anything except get seriously pissed off.

littleoldme
14th July 10, 05:15 PM
But these are extreme examples of a brief period of lunacy in the West. Quite unlike, for example, centuries upon centuries of common practice. Moral equivalence is never a wise move.
A brief period of lunacy?

According to the article I linked to doctors were cutting babies' clitorises as late as 2000.

I am not claiming that it's equivalent.

Just wanting to make the point that the insane and irrational urge to cut up childrens' clitorises has not been historically limited to "other" people in "other" countries.


Yeah, this is no time for moral relativism.

I hope we all stand together in our firm belief that we are outraged, and yet utterly incapable of or willing to stamp this out.
There are plenty of charities that educate people about the health risks associated with FGC and that have even empowered children to take their parents to court to ensure that they remain free the threat of mutilation.

If you really care about this issue then donate some money to a suitable charity. Just make sure it's not Clitoraid, a highly dubious "not for profit" organisation that is a front for a kerayzee cult.
http://www.drpetra.co.uk/blog/asking-questions-about-clitoraid/

Shotgun Christening
14th July 10, 05:52 PM
Just make sure it's not Clitoraid,



I drank some of that once. It tasted like fish.

AAAhmed46
14th July 10, 07:08 PM
must smell like fish too.

HappyOldGuy
14th July 10, 08:30 PM
But these are extreme examples of a brief period of lunacy in the West. Quite unlike, for example, centuries upon centuries of common practice. Moral equivalence is never a wise move.
Err, about 70% of boys are circumcized in the US every year to minimize their playing with their peepees.

The hypocritical outrage is just so tasty. I could eat it all day.

Mind you, I do think it's wrong, but I'm not sure I want the state stepping in.

Ajamil
14th July 10, 09:26 PM
How does circumcision minimize peepee playing? And when do we start the thread where we describe our penorz?

Truculent Sheep
15th July 10, 04:24 AM
Err, about 70% of boys are circumcized in the US every year to minimize their playing with their peepees.

The hypocritical outrage is just so tasty. I could eat it all day.

Mind you, I do think it's wrong, but I'm not sure I want the state stepping in.

I don't approve of that either, but there is the danger of getting caught up in the mire if you try to fight both battles at once.

Not that knob-chopping stops wanking to any degree, of course.

Machete
15th July 10, 06:17 AM
If you live in culture without writing, regularly performed rituals involving pain are a pretty effective way to help with memorizing important things. In cultures with writing those rituals are usually not needed. They tend to substitute one or two painful rituals in a person's lifetime with decades of reading and repetition. Why a culture, such as Indonesia's, which has access to the second way of keeping track of what is important to them, needs to cause such suffering is beyond me. And why it has to take that form is even harder to accept.

MrGalt
15th July 10, 10:45 AM
I don't approve of that either, but there is the danger of getting caught up in the mire if you try to fight both battles at once.

Not that knob-chopping stops wanking to any degree, of course.

The less efficient the tool, the more time and/or vigor one must apply to the job.

Phrost
15th July 10, 11:52 AM
Phrost - you're not finding out about this now are you?

I can't do anything except get seriously pissed off.

Of course not. It's just the first time I've seen pictures.

Ajamil
15th July 10, 03:22 PM
If you live in culture without writing, regularly performed rituals involving pain are a pretty effective way to help with memorizing important things. In cultures with writing those rituals are usually not needed. They tend to substitute one or two painful rituals in a person's lifetime with decades of reading and repetition. Why a culture, such as Indonesia's, which has access to the second way of keeping track of what is important to them, needs to cause such suffering is beyond me. And why it has to take that form is even harder to accept.

I would think most cultures use song and rhyme to memorize, based on the stories of oral tradition. Never heard of the Ancient Mariner or the Ramayana being recited whilst self-flagellating.

Machete
16th July 10, 02:58 AM
Both of your example come from cultures where at least some of the population are able to preserve those texts by writing them down and having them read aloud.

Ajamil
16th July 10, 03:53 AM
You don't think the stories came before the desire or ability to write them down?

Most examples of the earliest writing are bookkeeping texts - I always thought because it's too hard to make a song/rhyme about this year's wheat yield.

Truculent Sheep
16th July 10, 05:06 AM
The less efficient the tool, the more time and/or vigor one must apply to the job.

Nope.

littleoldme
16th July 10, 06:51 AM
If you live in culture without writing, regularly performed rituals involving pain are a pretty effective way to help with memorizing important things. In cultures with writing those rituals are usually not needed. They tend to substitute one or two painful rituals in a person's lifetime with decades of reading and repetition. Why a culture, such as Indonesia's, which has access to the second way of keeping track of what is important to them, needs to cause such suffering is beyond me. And why it has to take that form is even harder to accept.
I disagree

You only have to look at the grim photos that Arjuna posted of body mods to see that literacy has nothing to do with anything.

Also there's stuff like this, tombstoning in Plymouth, UK, a crap town but I think that at least some people there can read and write

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Also I do not think that these things are simply to do with enduring pain, although that may be one element.

They are to do with proving ones courage and earning status within a cultural group.

It could be wider society, or it could be within a gang or even a cult if the wider society fails to offer the challenges that people need.

The fundamental urge to prove oneself worthy by taking risks and demonstrating a willingness to suffer is very common, especially during adolescence and other times of crisis.

Quikfeet509
16th July 10, 08:21 AM
No wonder black guys always try to hit it with da white girls.




But seriously, who can we bomb to make this right?

Ajamil
16th July 10, 08:30 PM
But seriously, who can we bomb to make this right?
The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: It is lust only, Quickfeet, which is born of contact with the material mode of passion and later transformed into wrath, and which is the all-devouring sinful enemy of this world.

Big Dozer
17th July 10, 03:25 AM
I first heard about this on an episode of Law and Order SVU