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AAAhmed46
16th June 10, 05:45 PM
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article7148555.ece

Basically confirming what we all basically knew would happen: saudi arabia will let isreal use airspace to bomb iran. Shit like this happened all the time, it just never makes the news. There is alot of cooperation with isreal from gulf states, more then reported that is.

This is a case where they fear persian power more than they hate isreal....

HOWEVER:
Even before, saudi arabia has been warming to isreal more and more over the years.

billy sol hurok
16th June 10, 06:08 PM
HOWEVER:
Even before, saudi arabia has been warming to isreal more and more over the years.

And the prospect of a Persian nuke is precisely why.

Phrost
16th June 10, 06:18 PM
The irony is so thick you need a jackhammer to get through it.

Spade: The Real Snake
16th June 10, 06:40 PM
This action deserves to be on passiveaggressivenotes.com

Cullion
16th June 10, 06:41 PM
As far as I'm aware, most of the hardcore anti-Zionists and Islamic fundamentalists in the muslim world tend to hate the Saudi Monarchy. Why?

i) The Saudi Monarchy allows non-Muslim troops to be stationed in their country.

ii) The Saudi Monarchy doesn't take a public stand against zionism (but some individual royals fund palestinian causes).

iii) Saudi princelings go partying in the Lebanon and Europe and completely ignore all the rules of Islam that apply to commoners, drinking shitloads of booze, taking drugs, gambling and fucking whores.

The Saudi government is a hereditary dictatorship in the feudal sense, they're almost totally reliant on western military aid to maintain their power, a lot of them do stuff on travels abroad that most muslims deeply disapprove of, and everybody else knows it.

Phrost
16th June 10, 07:41 PM
Conversely, they export the extremist Wahabi flavor of Islam like we export Coke, to keep the unwashed masses ignorant and fixated on anyone but the house of Saud.

resolve
16th June 10, 08:06 PM
http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/thumb/e/ec/Meccanukeanyquestions.jpg/600px-Meccanukeanyquestions.jpg


The very fact that Israel has NOT done this goes to show that Israel isn't concerned about expansionism or destroying Islam, but survival.

The general Muslim populace wants Israel wiped off the map as a nation so they can have their "Muslim Pride" lands back. They could care less about the Palestinian people as a whole, as Palestinians contain Jews and christians as well. The Muslim peoples, as a religious group, conquered it from the conquered Jewish remnant and reconquered it from the "freeing" christian kingdoms. They want that shit back because Mohammed flew a donkey from there in a dream and now they have an invested religious site made out of it.

This is another stunning example of the Saud royalty and general Muslim populace disconnect.

You'd figure they'd be up in arms about this, but as the saying goes "They are still Muslims, and thus better than the Kafir."

As for the Sauds, as long as the oil money keeps pumping in they couldn't care less. Just don't you dare try to uprise or stop the flow of oil money... Or some local populace (read: nearby nation [read: most likely Iran) is going to need to get checked.. by people they'll pay to do the job.

Cullion
17th June 10, 07:24 AM
You've been sucking down a lot of deeply ignorant American Christian Zionist propaganda, resolve.

billy sol hurok
17th June 10, 07:43 AM
As for the Sauds, as long as the oil money keeps pumping in they couldn't care less. Just don't you dare try to uprise or stop the flow of oil money... Or some local populace (read: nearby nation [read: most likely Iran) is going to need to get checked.. by people they'll pay to do the job.
Heh, how much you figure the house of Saud paid the Jooz to take out Osirak? (Which was a vast relief to them -- and anyone else with a shred of sanity.)

Iran isn't merely a threat to Saudi oil revenue; it's an existential threat to the Tragic Kingdom's role as keepers of Mecca and Medina.

As to whom the Saudis actually pay to do their dirty work, one need look no further than Pakistan's ISI->Taliban->Al Queda.

And, less directly, Uncle Sam.

Lebell
17th June 10, 07:43 AM
Look, it's very simple.

Xtianity is the true religion, the muslims hate jesus, therefor hate god, therefor they must be destroyed.

all them politics are just a waste of time.

Vieux Normand
17th June 10, 07:54 AM
Simpler than that, trannyboy.

Semites helping other semites.

Yeah.

Lebell
17th June 10, 09:20 AM
no not really.
you got it all wrong.

KO'd N DOA
17th June 10, 11:14 AM
Ali Vs Abu

MMXIV... Armageddon

Vieux Normand
17th June 10, 01:04 PM
no not really.
you got it all wrong.

N0 U









tr4nny

resolve
17th June 10, 01:53 PM
You've been sucking down a lot of deeply ignorant American Christian Zionist propaganda, resolve.

Name what's ignorant about what I posted.

Ask a common muslim man or woman in the Middle East what they think of Israel. Ask them then what they think of Israelis using Saudi Arabia's airspace.

There is a substantial disconnect between the rulers of Saudi Arabia and the common populace of muslimdom, and even to their own ruled peoples. Westernization only seems to work in that region on the ruling classes because of exploitation by large worldwide corporations.

Yeah, I am pro-Israel. I think it was a great idea to give the Jews back their nation of origin, but it was handled piss poor sloppy. Alot of the mess can be attributed to how it was setup. That doesn't mean I simply swallow bullshit about its infallibility. I do not want to see it torn apart either. As a christian I still believe the "Israelites" are God's chosen people and the Jews are the descendants of those people and to give them their ancestral lands back was the right thing to do.

I was simply making the point that Israel COULD exploit the situation but they do not, and this shows what they are truly about... survival in the midst of a world that doesn't want them around.

Ajamil
17th June 10, 10:24 PM
How many common people of Saudi have you talked to? It sounds like an "everyone knows ___" argument, but I could be quite wrong. Have you visited Saudi Arabia?

Also, this is the ancestral land that the Israelites committed repeated acts of genocide to obtain, yes?

Lebell
18th June 10, 07:17 AM
people in saudi arabia are all fookin crazy, most gulfstates are veerd.
stay away from there.

Iscariot
18th June 10, 07:53 AM
Name what's ignorant about what I posted.
Well the last time I saw such sweeping generalisms and poor logic cobbled together to support the views someone already held I was reading stuff posted by Andy Schlafly.


Ask a common muslim man or woman in the Middle East what they think of Israel. Ask them then what they think of Israelis using Saudi Arabia's airspace.
Please publish the results of the in-depth study you seem to have done into the political perspectives of the Saudi populous, remember to include the numerical data on your sample size.

resolve
18th June 10, 09:35 AM
And I get called the ignorant one.

http://pewresearch.org/pubs/641/middle-east-summit-annapolis

http://pewresearch.org/assets/publications/641-1.gif

http://pewresearch.org/assets/publications/641-2.gif

http://www.worldjewishcongress.org/en/main/showNews/id/8958
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Politics/intlpo.html

This one is attitudes towards the United States, but includes feelings by proxy due to the US's dealings with Israel:
http://fpc.state.gov/documents/organization/7858.pdf

http://www.middle-east-online.com/english/?id=39536
http://kpr37.newsvine.com/_news/2010/05/13/4279033-former-saudi-information-minister-in-al-sharq-al-awsat-we-should-be-working-with-obama-to-help-him-expel-the-zionists-or-at-least-cut-them-down-to-size


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_relations_of_Saudi_Arabia

A charter member of the Arab League, Saudi Arabia has supported Palestinian rights to sovereignty, and called for withdrawal from the Occupied Territories since 1967. In recent years, Saudi Arabia has changed its viewpoint concerning the validity of negotiating with Israel. It calls for Israel's withdrawal from territory occupied in June 1967 in order for peace with the Arab states; then-Crown Prince Abdullah extended a multilateral peace proposal based on withdrawal in 2002. At that time, Israel did not respond to the offer. In 2007 Saudi Arabia again officially supported a peaceful resolution of the Arab-Israeli conflict.

Saudi Arabia rejected the Camp David accords, claiming that they would be unable to achieve a comprehensive political solution that would ensure Palestinian Arabs can all move to Israel and the division of Jerusalem. In response for Egypt "betraying" the Arab States and signing peace with Israel, Saudi Arabia, along with all the Arab States, broke diplomatic relations with and suspended aid to Egypt, the two countries renewed formal ties in 1987.

Saudi Arabia does not have diplomatic relations with Israel. The country participates in an active economic boycott of Israel. However, Saudi Arabia recognizes that its ally, the United States has a strong and supportive relationship of Israel.

Saudi Arabia played an active role in attempting to bring the Palestinians towards a self-governing condition which would permit negotiations with Israel. It has done so primarily by trying to mend the schism between Fatah and Hamas, most notably when King Abdullah invited the two factions to negotiations in Mecca resulting in the Mecca Agreement of February 7, 2007. The agreement soon failed, but Saudi Arabia has continued to support a national unity government for the Palestinians, and strongly opposed Israel's war on Gaza in early 2009.

Tha's just the leadership. It is well known that Saudi Arabia's leadership is one of the most liberal in the Middle East and have a disconnect with their people regarding the strict following of Islam. Now think about the common muslim living in that country and their views... That doesn't even include the Muslims visiting for their Hajj. Now consider the amount of ridiculous terrorist teaching and Wahabism coming from Saudi Arabia and being exported to the mosques of other countires.

This really isn't that hard guys.



EDIT:::
Another interesting twist to the story. Saudi is now denying having ever offered their airspace to Israel.

Cullion
18th June 10, 09:58 AM
Name what's ignorant about what I posted.

Ask a common muslim man or woman in the Middle East what they think of Israel. Ask them then what they think of Israelis using Saudi Arabia's airspace.

There is a substantial disconnect between the rulers of Saudi Arabia and the common populace of muslimdom, and even to their own ruled peoples. Westernization only seems to work in that region on the ruling classes because of exploitation by large worldwide corporations.

Yeah, I am pro-Israel. I think it was a great idea to give the Jews back their nation of origin, but it was handled piss poor sloppy. Alot of the mess can be attributed to how it was setup. That doesn't mean I simply swallow bullshit about its infallibility. I do not want to see it torn apart either. As a christian I still believe the "Israelites" are God's chosen people and the Jews are the descendants of those people and to give them their ancestral lands back was the right thing to do.

The people whose ancestors lived on that land in biblical times have largely converted to Islam now.

Lebell
18th June 10, 10:11 AM
It isn't very surprising that saudi arabia now denies having offered their airspace.
They try out these deals by spreading/leaking the rumour, then observe how the media and the people respond, when negatively they say ' oh we never wanted to do that, its just lies and propaganda!'

It actually can be an effective weapon.
Israel could have spread this rumour unilateral so to harm saudi arabia, but its unlikely because israel profits more from a stabile saudi kingdom.
They probably wanted to make some arrangements and now break it off.

WHEN the airstrikes hit Iran it will most likely go through northern iraqi/southern kurdistan.
But hey, what do i know.

Vieux Normand
18th June 10, 11:36 AM
I think French airspace should be the designated dumping place for all airline waste tanks.

I think American waters should be the designated dumping place for--oh wait.

Vieux Normand
18th June 10, 11:47 AM
The people whose ancestors lived on that land in biblical times have largely converted to Islam now.

This is supposed to be about the mid-east; hence, emotionally-charged, agenda-laden and fact-free.

Get with the programme.

Lebell
18th June 10, 12:19 PM
the juice used to live in the deep south of egypt, all over the arabic peninsula and at the borders of lebanon.
pre islamic times you had juice, xtians (ethnically still semites ofc) and pagans.

Vieux Normand
18th June 10, 12:22 PM
the juice used to live in the deep south of egypt, all over the arabic peninsula and at the borders of lebanon.
pre islamic times you had juice, xtians (ethnically still semites ofc) and pagans.

The pagans were there first, tr4nny. Everyone else was just invading.

Lebell
18th June 10, 12:24 PM
no becos like there was als0 a pre pagan time and like nobody really knows what that was liek cos the pagans were a buncho monkeez who couldsnt right.
and then the xitans came and brought civilisation.

KO'd N DOA
18th June 10, 01:05 PM
This airspace issue is interesting. I know that countries can go up only so far as their own, 50miles to 62 miles. We all have things going through our airspace without permits.

Lebell
18th June 10, 01:24 PM
yeah liek them aliens from omicron3, i dont hear anyone bitching bout their permits.

Vieux Normand
18th June 10, 01:25 PM
We all have things going through our airspace without permits.

We've had men-with-bangs and purple-haired chicks taking care of that--with mean tambourines, no less--since 1980. Gerry Anderson says so:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5TQUdcYk82U

KO'd N DOA
18th June 10, 02:29 PM
Isn't the Kaaba hiding a space relic? Someone let those mini skirted heros go investigate...

Vieux Normand
18th June 10, 03:55 PM
Isn't the Kaaba hiding a space relic?

Rumour says that it's a lot bigger on the inside than on the outside...

Ajamil
18th June 10, 09:12 PM
And I get called the ignorant one.

http://pewresearch.org/pubs/641/middle-east-summit-annapolis

http://pewresearch.org/assets/publications/641-1.gif

http://pewresearch.org/assets/publications/641-2.gif Whut? Neither of these polls show anything about S. Arabia's opinions.


http://www.worldjewishcongress.org/en/main/showNews/id/8958 (http://www.worldjewishcongress.org/en/main/showNews/id/8958)
The institute polled over 1,000 people in each of the 25 countries surveyed and conducted face-to-face interviews. It also asked for people’s views on Muslim leaders and organizations and found that enthusiasm for most of political leaders in the Middle East is limited, with the exception of Saudi King Abdullah, who has approval ratings of between 60 and 92 percent in predominantly Muslim countries.Sounds like they just don't like anyone...except S. Arabian leaders.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Politics/intlpo.html (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Politics/intlpo.html)
The only thing these polls showed about S. Arabia is they seemed more agreeable to suicide bombings as acceptable tactics than just about everyone else.


This one is attitudes towards the United States, but includes feelings by proxy due to the US's dealings with Israel:
http://fpc.state.gov/documents/organization/7858.pdf

http://www.middle-east-online.com/english/?id=39536
http://kpr37.newsvine.com/_news/2010/05/13/4279033-former-saudi-information-minister-in-al-sharq-al-awsat-we-should-be-working-with-obama-to-help-him-expel-the-zionists-or-at-least-cut-them-down-to-sizeThink about this. How much of the hatred towards Isreal is the fact that they might be seen as a toady stooge for US imperialism in the region?

Do you think Cuba would have been such an enemy for the US without Russian backing during the Cold War?

Tha's just the leadership. It is well known that Saudi Arabia's leadership is one of the most liberal in the Middle East and have a disconnect with their people regarding the strict following of Islam. Now think about the common muslim living in that country and their views... That doesn't even include the Muslims visiting for their Hajj. Now consider the amount of ridiculous terrorist teaching and Wahabism coming from Saudi Arabia and being exported to the mosques of other countires.Ok, re-read you posts and it seems I mistook your anti-Muslim rants as specifically against S. Arabia.

So what exactly is your point again? Polls show a clear dislike of Israel from predominantly Muslim countries, so Israel should nuke their holiest site and try to eradicate Islam?

AAAhmed46
19th June 10, 05:10 AM
Look, it's very simple.

Xtianity is the true religion, the muslims hate jesus, therefor hate god, therefor they must be destroyed.

all them politics are just a waste of time.


Don't ever stop posting you lovable bastard. You hate everyone.

AAAhmed46
19th June 10, 05:12 AM
And the prospect of a Persian nuke is precisely why.

I stated that indirectly too.

AAAhmed46
19th June 10, 05:22 AM
And I get called the ignorant one.

http://pewresearch.org/pubs/641/middle-east-summit-annapolis

http://pewresearch.org/assets/publications/641-1.gif

http://pewresearch.org/assets/publications/641-2.gif

http://www.worldjewishcongress.org/en/main/showNews/id/8958
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Politics/intlpo.html

This one is attitudes towards the United States, but includes feelings by proxy due to the US's dealings with Israel:
http://fpc.state.gov/documents/organization/7858.pdf

http://www.middle-east-online.com/english/?id=39536
http://kpr37.newsvine.com/_news/2010/05/13/4279033-former-saudi-information-minister-in-al-sharq-al-awsat-we-should-be-working-with-obama-to-help-him-expel-the-zionists-or-at-least-cut-them-down-to-size


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_relations_of_Saudi_Arabia


Tha's just the leadership. It is well known that Saudi Arabia's leadership is one of the most liberal in the Middle East and have a disconnect with their people regarding the strict following of Islam. Now think about the common muslim living in that country and their views... That doesn't even include the Muslims visiting for their Hajj. Now consider the amount of ridiculous terrorist teaching and Wahabism coming from Saudi Arabia and being exported to the mosques of other countires.

This really isn't that hard guys.



EDIT:::
Another interesting twist to the story. Saudi is now denying having ever offered their airspace to Israel.

1) Wahabism/Salafism is batshit crazy yes, but not inherently violent or genocidal(Every wahabbi I have met at the mosque reminded me of evangelical christians in their attitude) But i have also read their teachings. While i disagree with a great many of them, i haven't found it particularly violent or even anti-semetic. I have a wahabi Tafsir(interpretation of the quran) as well. Most muslims, along with islamic clergy don't advocate nuking isreal. This isn't my little interpretation of Islam either(i personally dislike the views of all four mathabs)
2) The polls you posted really reflect little on whether muslims want to nuke isreal. They think it's an illigal state, but so does a vast majority of europeans.
3) If you look at the questions toward suicide bombings, they question is specific, about whether they are under occupation or not. If you read in details about these studies, it is supporting suicide bombing under occupation. If peace is established with isreal, the arguements of the westbank and gaza being under occupation become null.
4) Gallup has similar yet significantly different results that you should look at.


Saudi leadership keeps people under a tight leash. Muslims complain about the dictatorial nature of the house of saud as much as it is freindly with the states.

Infact, if you read all of Osama Bin Ladens letters, along with religious ranting is political bitching, he consistently brings up what secular muslims bring up all the time: That arab states control the world through harsh dictatorships, which the united states has consistently supported.

watch linktv on youtube(takes news reports from all over the middle east and compiles it), though very pro-gulf, it reveals the utter disregard gulf leaders have toward their own people.

Bin laden didn't just say: DURKA DURKA!!! COME ONE COME ALL!!!!! IT'S YER RELIGIOUS DUTY!!!!

His propoganda is filled with political complaints.

Why don't you look at the muslim perspective first hand instead of listening to christian zionists everyday. Hell go visit a mosque with a high palistinian population or something. Ron paul, whom you clearly admire, also highlights the influence of american interference in this regard.

AAAhmed46
19th June 10, 05:34 AM
Conversely, they export the extremist Wahabi flavor of Islam like we export Coke, to keep the unwashed masses ignorant and fixated on anyone but the house of Saud.

The truth spoken in a far too simplified manner on a complex subject.

Osama bin laden originally recruited by highlighting the faults of the royal house of saud. Believe me, one of the reasons for anti-western sentiment isn't just Wahabi/Salafi stupidity(though that is a part of it) it's constant reminders of colonialism and western influence over dictatorial governments in the middle east.

P.s. yes i am aware of the ottoman empires colonial past, but historical accuracy isn't often clued into stoking anti-western sentiment.

Lebell
19th June 10, 09:47 AM
they isnt gonna nuke isreel cos it hez liek A THIRD HOLY PLACE OF ISLAM there up in jerusalem/
know whaddam sayin?
dayum.

(i tried to use 4chan/l33tspe33k so my point finally would get through)

resolve
19th June 10, 11:46 AM
*sigh*

My point missed again. Might be my fault this time.

Read this carefully:
* I don't watch news. That includes Fox News. Too much lying going on all around ever since it's been found out lying on the news isn't a crime. I get my news from as unbiased sources as I can find on the internet.
* I don't have pastors screaming against Islam and all that. In fact, I've heard maybe 1 sermon in the past 2 years that mentioned Islam when it was going over different religions.
* I don't let pastors hold sway over me like that. "Apparently every protestant christian in the US is just some sheep who wanders off any old cliff the pastors tell them to. They never think for themselves, never ever!!!" --- Most people making claims like this are just cranky old ex-christians who haven't stepped foot in a church in 15 years or more who left over one inane thing or another said by a pastor and just love poking their old religion to death. The others saying it are those raised in a leftist household where anyone making an exclusive truth claim is pretty much the ultimate evil in their eyes... unless they aren't christian! Then they're just a lesser evil in the world. Yes I am trolling on this one, but with a grain of truth.

* All I said was the fact that Israel doesn't take advantage of this airspace thing was showing that they were acting out of defense this time. I do realise that Israel, because it has a government run by men who make mistakes just like everywhere else, has done some awful things in the past. But somehow that always turns into "Israel is teh great satan!" This is the only argument I was trying to make. But then everyone is all "you don't really know that, SHOW PROOF!" I didn't want to take it in that direction, because I knew the conversation would shift from Israeli/Muslim relations to my personal feelings about Islam but I complied.

* In regards to what Saudis think. Not many polls have been taken like that in Saudi Arabia. Why? Because alot of times western things like that (even if just taking polls) is not allowed. Yes the country is becoming alot more open to non-muslims now in evangelistic efforts to the infidel. But Saudi is the epicenter of Islam. Every muslim ends up going there once at least if they can for Hajj. I was simply showing you the poll results of all the countries near Saudi Arabia and to a greater extent, the rest of the middle east. There simply haven't been any newer polls than that in those regions as the unrest there now is kind of uh... yeah because there's some big fracking wars going on there! The people of Saudi are largely set for life, and due to that are sure to have some differing opinions on how things should be done than their poorer neighbors. However, it is not unusual at all to say that there are shared sentiments by their people. It's commonly known fact that the average Saudi Arabian does not approve of their royals' western ways in regards to adherence to Islam. I'm sure they also don't approve of a few of their political decisions as well. Take into account the overarching feeling towards Israel in the region as a whole it's not a very large step to take in reasoning...

* As to Israel only getting flack for being a "puppet of the US's imperial ambitions in the region".... Yes Israel is called the "Little Satan" and the US is called the "Great Satan" by a few muslims in the Middle East. However Israel is literally on their doorstep. If the US and Israel cut alliance ties Israel wouldn't last very long at all. Even if done in a "we're renouncing the cutting of military ties to the United States and their imperial ambitions in the region" I would bet you 10 to 1 Israel would be attacked soon after (within a decade or two) as their main supporter of military might would be gone. Just because the "great satan" gets out of the picture doesn't mean the "little satan" becomes a saint in their eyes.

* The biggest fact is, Saudi Arabia has withdrew their support (or never offered it in the first place) making this conversation moot. If you want to discuss my feelings on other religions, yeah we can make a thread for that. But now this thread is just a train wreck derail. :-/

Lebell
19th June 10, 11:50 AM
Jesus will protect his sheep.
As a xtian im not worried, but those filthy heathens however..

AAAhmed46
19th June 10, 03:57 PM
*sigh*

* All I said was the fact that Israel doesn't take advantage of this airspace thing was showing that they were acting out of defense this time. I do realise that Israel, because it has a government run by men who make mistakes just like everywhere else, has done some awful things in the past. But somehow that always turns into "Israel is teh great satan!" This is the only argument I was trying to make. But then everyone is all "you don't really know that, SHOW PROOF!" I didn't want to take it in that direction, because I knew the conversation would shift from Israeli/Muslim relations to my personal feelings about Islam but I complied.
While the arab/muslim world is horrible in it's use of terms, most dislike the land grabs done by the wall, the settlements. There has not been a reasonable isreali government in nearly 20 years, likud and it's spinoff have been consistently in power. No one is claiming isreal it self is inherently evil, isrealis want to live like anyone else.


* In regards to what Saudis think. Not many polls have been taken like that in Saudi Arabia. Why? Because alot of times western things like that (even if just taking polls) is not allowed. Yes the country is becoming alot more open to non-muslims now in evangelistic efforts to the infidel. But Saudi is the epicenter of Islam. Every muslim ends up going there once at least if they can for Hajj. I was simply showing you the poll results of all the countries near Saudi Arabia and to a greater extent, the rest of the middle east. There simply haven't been any newer polls than that in those regions as the unrest there now is kind of uh... yeah because there's some big fracking wars going on there! The people of Saudi are largely set for life, and due to that are sure to have some differing opinions on how things should be done than their poorer neighbors. However, it is not unusual at all to say that there are shared sentiments by their people. It's commonly known fact that the average Saudi Arabian does not approve of their royals' western ways in regards to adherence to Islam. I'm sure they also don't approve of a few of their political decisions as well. Take into account the overarching feeling towards Israel in the region as a whole it's not a very large step to take in reasoning...
Many many muslims never end up going for hajj. But i see your point. Nearly every muslim I have met loved Mecca and Medina, but totally disliked the saudi government, either due to hyprocrisy, corruption, racism. The surrounding countries have been polled, the Gallup polls had very different results from the Pew polls.
Saudi arabia isn't becoming more open to evangalize the infidel, as the royal family only pretends to care about religion. Despite what robert spencer may claim, the muslim world is often motivated by many things secular....like opening up the economy.


* As to Israel only getting flack for being a "puppet of the US's imperial ambitions in the region".... Yes Israel is called the "Little Satan" and the US is called the "Great Satan" by a few muslims in the Middle East. However Israel is literally on their doorstep. If the US and Israel cut alliance ties Israel wouldn't last very long at all. Even if done in a "we're renouncing the cutting of military ties to the United States and their imperial ambitions in the region" I would bet you 10 to 1 Israel would be attacked soon after (within a decade or two) as their main supporter of military might would be gone. Just because the "great satan" gets out of the picture doesn't mean the "little satan" becomes a saint in their eyes.
The great satan is a term used by Bin laden, and I have never heardd any muslim actually use that discription, unless quoting Binny.
But you fail to acknowledge arab nationalism. If it all really was about 'the great satan' arabs would get all emotional talking about Kashmir, Chechnya and africa.
But the fact is that arabs get emotional about the palistinians because to them it's a nationailstic issue. Even benny morris claims that before the 1990's, the palistinian resistence was largely a nationalistic resistence, and later on became religiously charged.


* The biggest fact is, Saudi Arabia has withdrew their support (or never offered it in the first place) making this conversation moot. If you want to discuss my feelings on other religions, yeah we can make a thread for that. But now this thread is just a train wreck derail. :-/

But they have made lovey dovy eyes for the last six years, showing more and more friendly behavior.

Cullion
19th June 10, 04:05 PM
Yasser Arafat's wife was Christian. I never saw the intifada as much of a specifically muslim 'jihad'.

I know from meeting them at university, that the ruling classes of many arab states absolutely couldn't care less about normal muslim standards of propriety when it comes to alcohol and sexual relationships, when they are away from home. Working class pakistani and bangladeshi immigrant muslims tend to be much more loyal to those rules than middle or upper class arabs IME.

Lebell
19th June 10, 04:12 PM
so me as a xtian could become the ruler of a middle eastern country..?
i mean thats possible then?
interesting..

AAAhmed46
19th June 10, 04:25 PM
Yasser Arafat's wife was Christian. I never saw the intifada as much of a specifically muslim 'jihad'.

I know from meeting them at university, that the ruling classes of many arab states absolutely couldn't care less about normal muslim standards of propriety when it comes to alcohol and sexual relationships, when they are away from home. Working class pakistani and bangladeshi immigrant muslims tend to be much more loyal to those rules than middle or upper class arabs IME.

I noticed it too. I find that the arabs lean less toward faith and more toward nationalism. Thats why so many arab christians run around with the lebanese gangs in australia.

Vieux Normand
19th June 10, 05:15 PM
so me as a xtian could become the ruler of a middle eastern country..?
i mean thats possible then?
interesting..

All hail the Tran Negus.

resolve
20th June 10, 03:13 PM
I don't know Lebell, christians have been viziers and other government officials before but I don't think in a muslim country you'd be allowed to rule at the top. Even as a gov't official you'd still have to pay the jizya tax and "bow to the superiority of Islam", as it were, whilst you ruled. And those were just regular christians. I don't know how they'd receive a 'xtian' :P. Maybe more or less so.

Also, AAAhmed, I agree that Israel has done some madenningly shady stuff. I honestly wish the Palestinians and Israelis could come together as one nation. I hate nationalism when it displays itself like this.

Cullion
20th June 10, 03:46 PM
Jizya isn't imposed throughout the middle East. I don't think you understand how secular some Arab countries are.

AAAhmed46
20th June 10, 03:52 PM
I don't know Lebell, christians have been viziers and other government officials before but I don't think in a muslim country you'd be allowed to rule at the top. Even as a gov't official you'd still have to pay the jizya tax and "bow to the superiority of Islam", as it were, whilst you ruled. And those were just regular christians. I don't know how they'd receive a 'xtian' :P. Maybe more or less so.
You understand that the muslims also paid taxes too right(Zaakat)? Saddam hussains right hand man was a christian, had alot of power and influence.

Infact the only islamically based government in the muslim world is Iran really, and even that is becoming highly secualrized with jews holding high government positions. (saudi arabia has islamically based laws, but really it's a disgusting totalitarian monarchy.) Alot of the differences are cultural and not religious.



Also, AAAhmed, I agree that Israel has done some madenningly shady stuff. I honestly wish the Palestinians and Israelis could come together as one nation. I hate nationalism when it displays itself like this.
Isreal's cetizens get unfairly blamed for the actions of the government. I talked to guys who visit isreal all the time, they find that Isreali people tend to be very kind and open minded people.

Lebell
21st June 10, 01:37 AM
so what ahmed is saying is: islamic governments are havens for democracy and tolerance!
we should learn from their openminded approach towards diversity and be more concerned with the saudi royals who actually fight the wacky muslim extremists!

AAAhmed46
21st June 10, 02:27 AM
Oh hell no! THey are intolerant regimes, they just arn't religiously intolerant, they are Politically and culturally intolarent, in the totalitarian sense.

Lebell
21st June 10, 02:30 AM
Oh hell no! THey are intolerant regimes, they just arn't religiously intolerant, they are Politically and culturally intolarent, in the totalitarian sense.
ORlly?
So there's no exodus of Lebanese xtians going on?
The last tiny jewish community in Yemen does not need government protection from continues deaththreats?
In Turkey no nuns were shot when the pope quoted a byzantine emperors critique on islam?
Women arent forced to wear headscarfs in Iran even when they are xtian?

That would be nice: a muslim woman would come here and we force her t wear a necklace witha cross eventhough she is not xtian.
But when muslims do sucha intolerant dominating act its harmless culture?
please..

AAAhmed46
21st June 10, 02:48 AM
Intolerance is not my point, it's the whether or not the governments are theocracies or not. iran certainly is, and indirectly saudi arabia. But the rest? Different shades, but very secualr.

Oh it has problems, and yeah muslim countries for sure have this retarded extremism. But Iran is one country out of many others in the region, probably the only Islamic republic there(and is quickly secularizing) And Turkey has far more problems than just intolerance, they still haven't even admitted the armenian genocide. But there wasn't a riot outside of the nuns home was there? It wasn't some massive strike of anger like the cartoons. It wasn't state mandated.
Lebanon, things weren't so bad until some neighbors stirred things up. Yemen is a shit hole, even by the standards of shitholes. Hell hezbullah has christians way high up in it's political wing.

Hell im not saying things hare honkey dory. But it isn't the theologically dominated picture Resolve painted either, the region isn't some strange place dominated by Sharia.
You know as well as I do there are powerful secular motivations and governments within the muslim world, regardless of the injustice(and there is a great deal of it)

No rational individual can deny the shitty ass shit that goes on in the middle east. But to say that most governments there are dominated by religious law demonstrates an uninformed view of teh situation.

Lebell
21st June 10, 03:39 AM
Intolerance is not my point, it's the whether or not the governments are theocracies or not. iran certainly is, and indirectly saudi arabia. But the rest? Different shades, but very secualr.

They need to be secular to keep the batshitcrazy al qatb/qutb muslimbrotherhood fans at bay.



Oh it has problems, and yeah muslim countries for sure have this retarded extremism. But Iran is one country out of many others in the region, probably the only Islamic republic there(and is quickly secularizing)

so they have problems with muslim extremists that are intolerant of a jewish state.
and a government who uses the destruction of israel in its 'statements' cos they know that goes well with their people.


And Turkey has far more problems than just intolerance, they still haven't even admitted the armenian genocide. But there wasn't a riot outside of the nuns home was there? It wasn't some massive strike of anger like the cartoons. It wasn't state mandated.

No no riots in front of nuns homes, they were shot and assaulted.
2 or three died.
I believe it was in anatolia.

turkey's problems: the unwashed hordes of the countrysides of turkey want to throw Ataturks legacy outta the window so they can impose....muslim extremism!

do you start to see a pattern here?


Lebanon, things weren't so bad until some neighbors stirred things up. Yemen is a shit hole, even by the standards of shitholes. Hell hezbullah has christians way high up in it's political wing.
Not justneighbours, the lebanese got a shitload of palestinians in, and after being fucked over by the syrians and egyptians got stuck with the palestines for much longer then they bargained for.
esp lebanese governing system is fragile since they must have a xtian on function A, a muslim on function B etc.

'Hezbullah'= Hizb (al hizb) allah the party/faction of God.
it is islamic but since it also fights israeli invaders i can imagine some xtians dont have problems joining up with them.



Hell im not saying things hare honkey dory. But it isn't the theologically dominated picture Resolve painted either, the region isn't some strange place dominated by Sharia.
No it is not.
BUT the threat of fucking idiots trying to push their retarded ways through onto the rest of society there is, and the majority wont speak up to tell them to STFU.



You know as well as I do there are powerful secular motivations and governments within the muslim world, regardless of the injustice(and there is a great deal of it)

True, palestinian communist party, saddams Ba'ath (resurrection/arise) party, they're all secular, egypt cracks down on the muslim brotherhood hard.
Even Hamas is known to execute any foreign terrorists within their borders.


No rational individual can deny the shitty ass shit that goes on in the middle east. But to say that most governments there are dominated by religious law demonstrates an uninformed view of teh situation.

But the governments are forced to adjust their policies so the muslim extremism doesnt grow big enough for public revolt.

I think we can both agree to this: the more you learn about the middle east the more you see that the reasons that muslim extremism exists are socio-economic.

(Though i must say islam as a theology makes it remarkeble easy to kill infadels.
but thats another discussion.)

AAAhmed46
21st June 10, 04:25 AM
But the rise in extremism is almost always linked to the oppressive nature of the governments.

Foreign aid that doesn't reach the poor and unwashed ends up getting taken over by the crazies, such as education provided by the crazies, food, water, shelter. Hell Hamas gives Isreal an awesome excuse, so electing them was probably not exactly smart. But hell, they got elected because they provided domestic services fatah neglected to provide.

Hell as i said before, looking at bin laden's letters to the west, his no.1 recruiting tactic is harping on oppressive western backed governments in the muslim world.

Kill that discontent, and extremism is alot less horrible.

It's like how the Tea party garners support, playing on people insecurity and fears:

watch?v=XgiliHoApqU


Hell look at the language they use when talking: "WE USED TO BE THE MOST CIVILIZED PLACE IN THE WORLD, LOOK AT US NOW?" Yeah, look at you now. Stop fucking killing eachother, freaking out over cartoons, getting spontaniously angry(lets face it, arabs are pretty short fused)

Today they have abondaned everything that made them great.

Lebell
21st June 10, 04:34 AM
But the rise in extremism is almost always linked to the oppressive nature of the governments.

Foreign aid that doesn't reach the poor and unwashed ends up getting taken over by the crazies, such as education provided by the crazies, food, water, shelter. Hell Hamas gives Isreal an awesome excuse, so electing them was probably not exactly smart. But hell, they got elected because they provided domestic services fatah neglected to provide.


Yup, this is the biggest achillesheel for the western world: it keeps hammering on democracy etc, but when a party is chosen to govern that is not liked by the west they refuse to deal with them.
a missed chance.
and a mistake.



Hell as i said before, looking at bin laden's letters to the west, his no.1 recruiting tactic is harping on oppressive western backed governments in the muslim world.

I've read it, who are these crusaders he keeps mentionning?
lol!


Kill that discontent, and extremism is alot less horrible.


Too late for that.



Hell look at the language they use when talking: "WE USED TO BE THE MOST CIVILIZED PLACE IN THE WORLD, LOOK AT US NOW?" Yeah, look at you now. Stop fucking killing eachother, freaking out over cartoons, getting spontaniously angry(lets face it, arabs are pretty short fused)

Today they have abondaned everything that made them great.

Yeah they sorta got sucked into the whole victim thingy.
After they were done being the ottomans bitches they never fully recovered.

AAAhmed46
21st June 10, 06:23 AM
Thats another thing forgotten (atleast among pakistanis) they forget the ottomans were just as manipulative as the british and french. I know lebanese talk about it, but not anyone else. They seem to conveniently forget it.

Ive even heard rumours that turkey is trying to reestablish control over the middle east. Hell look at the deal with the Kurds(Rhymes with Turd! Hehehehe!)

Lebell
21st June 10, 07:10 AM
kurd is pronounced as koord.
oo as in foot.

AAAhmed46
21st June 10, 10:27 AM
Making it sound like 'turd' sounds better.

Lebell
21st June 10, 12:23 PM
racist..

AAAhmed46
21st June 10, 05:05 PM
Admit it, you giggled a little bit when seeing 'turd' and 'kurd' together.

Artful Dentures
21st June 10, 09:42 PM
Really Canada is the only fucking decent country in the world.

Lebell
22nd June 10, 05:37 AM
fucking decent

i rather fuck dirtay.

Artful Dentures
22nd June 10, 11:45 AM
I am sure you do you filthy Dutchman!!!

KO'd N DOA
22nd June 10, 12:55 PM
I've met a few saudies. A rich effeminent guy studying in Straasbourg who lured away my woman with his girly effeminent (she called them eligant) eyelashes. I really thought about beating him, but I don't beat chicks, and he was kinda hot...in that girly man way, and I didn't want confusion, because my women had to have been gay to not choose me over him/her.

At Bible School, there was a girl who was identified by only one fake name, because if anyone back home found out that Isa had moved into her soul, especially her dad or uncles, there would be some honour punishment. She warmed up to me, needing a husband ASAP... but I couldn't take the drama, and the chaperons, so I gave up that budding relationship.

The girl I met had (metaphorically) larger balls than that sissy girlfriend stealer fancy boy from Arabia.

Conclusion - neither one of them would know anything about their governments policy, or airspace... and if they did they wouldn't say over fear of remifications back home. Both the girl and boy were hot chicks.

Lebell
23rd June 10, 04:09 AM
i used to date a half european half lebanese chick.
she was gorgeous.
i know arab women are being stereotyped as hairy ogres, but i can assure you thats only 2 third of them!