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View Full Version : Arizona Governor Signs New Immigration Enforcement - Obama Says "I'm gonna check this



resolve
23rd April 10, 07:50 PM
Source: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100423/ap_on_re_us/us_immigration_enforcement


Again, the most interesting thing about this article is the comments section. The back and forth between the state governor and Obama provides an almost perfect flammable solution for internet politics jockeys to throw their matches onto.

I don't know how I feel about this. I understand the need for and myself want stricter immigration policies concerning illegal immigrants (see: illegal). I have no problem whatsoever with green card holding members of our society or people trying to go for the naturalization process. The only qualms I have is enacting more of a police state. But then what other solution is there? Can there be another solution?

What do you think?

Cullion
23rd April 10, 07:56 PM
First question to ask is what do you feel the purpose of border controls of any kind are ?

resolve
23rd April 10, 08:00 PM
That's obvious Cullionz...

The only thing I'm worried about is how much power they are intending to give to police to accomplish this. The article doesn't really say and I guess we'll never know without some digging into Arizona legislative records or until the bill is passed. Otherwise I don't have a problem with new legislation regarding illegals. Obviously what we have isn't working. This may be better, or worse... /shrugs

EuropIan
23rd April 10, 08:01 PM
Is the the Arizona bill that allows cops to legally harass anyone who looks remotely Mexican?

Cullion
23rd April 10, 08:07 PM
That's obvious Cullionz...

It's actually not. What do you see the purpose of border control as ?

resolve
23rd April 10, 08:11 PM
*sigh* you want to play conversation games... fine.

I see border control's purpose as:

1) Protecting the citizens within the country from dangers from without.
2) Enforcing our nations laws regarding tariffs, trade, and immigration... basically any and all traffic going in and out of our borders.

*waits patiently*

Cullion
23rd April 10, 08:13 PM
No, I'm asking what the purpose of the border law is, not what the purpose of enforcing the law is. What do you think the nation's laws about immigration need to be, and why?

You're the one who started a thread saying 'I don't really know what to think about this'. I'm trying to help you.

resolve
23rd April 10, 08:19 PM
The purpose of this law is to allow police to check for identification for legal status within Arizona. Arizona has one of the most ridiculous problems with illegal immigration with a literal drug war spiraling into it from northern Mexico. The purpose of the law is to allow police to question "suspects" for identification and if they can't provide it to detain and eventually deport them by working with border patrol.

Aside from that, I don't know the actual details or the workings of the law. I'm not an arizona citizen, and I don't have access to Arizona's legislative records.

So therefore the all-encompassing purpose of this law is to help get illegals out of the country... thus enforcing the laws that declare their status in this country as illegal in the first place.

EuropIan
23rd April 10, 08:23 PM
So basically making sure no one hispanic wants to live in Arizona, ever.

Gotcha.

Cullion
23rd April 10, 08:25 PM
How will they provide proof of right to be in the US ?

EuropIan
23rd April 10, 08:30 PM
They will wear little embroidered sombreros on their clothing at all times.


OhyesIdid

Cullion
23rd April 10, 08:33 PM
Are these drug gangs essentially competing over the supply lines into the US ?

If so, you know what I'm about to say.

BadUglyMagic
23rd April 10, 09:24 PM
Are these drug gangs essentially competing over the supply lines into the US ?

If so, you know what I'm about to say.



So, say it. You know you want to.

Cullion
23rd April 10, 09:25 PM
Deal with it the same way you dealt with prohibition.

Phrost
23rd April 10, 09:41 PM
1 in 12 Arizona residents are there illegally. Chew on that for a minute.

My only comment on this situation is that it's a symptom of how broken the entire system is when they have to pass a law to make something already legal into a crime. I'm trying to picture how that is even possible, but all I'm coming up with is an MC Escher painting.

Phrost
23rd April 10, 09:46 PM
Deal with it the same way you dealt with prohibition.

You and I both know all of the reasons why that'll never happen, including the fact that there's too much money all around in keeping a product illegal; from the extreme profitability for those at the top of the chain, to the extreme profitability of the government contracts to prison management.

The Kennedys made their fortune bootlegging alcohol during prohibition. Prohibition is directly responsible for a Senate seat, an Attorney General, and a President. And that's just one family.

Cullion
23rd April 10, 09:52 PM
1 in 12 Arizona residents are illegals. Chew on that for a minute

The major supermarket chains of the UK estimate that our real population is about 80 million, rather than ~65 million quoted by central govt, based on the amount of food they sell and the amount of food a single adult consumes on average.

And we have no land border. Our country is one of the major planning hubs for acts of Islamic terrorism. I'm not unfamiliar with these kinds of concerns.

This proposal is about allowing the police to more aggressively stop and search people who are already in the US and demand proof they have a right to be there, when there's no national identity document that you're legally mandated to carry.

Good luck with that. I expect it to collapse in a very expensive lawsuit within a year.

If you're serious, you've either got to do one of the following:-

i) Physically stop them getting into the US in the first place at the coast, ports, airports and land borders (yes, I'm sure that will require an enormous commitment of manpower and Kafka-esque fortifications. You'll have to stop them landing on beaches too),

ii) Dismantle all welfare and narcotics-prohibition incentives for them entering and then stop worrying about who has a right to be where so much.

iii) Implement a mandatory nationwide ID card scheme with very secure biometrics and get used to seeing US citizens within US borders getting randomly pestered for their 'papers', like in airport security.

iv) Intervene in Mexico's internal affairs. This could be done in some kind of silly action-movie way, or it could happen with NAFTA morphing into the EU, in, well, exactly the way the European Common Market morphed into the EU. Expect to spend mucho tax Dollars (sorry, Ameros) trying to prop up Mexico's system of government.

Think this through and then pick one.

Phrost
23rd April 10, 10:01 PM
Obviously I'm more in favor of option 2.

EuropIan
23rd April 10, 10:02 PM
It's almost like some kind of final solution is needed.

Cullion
23rd April 10, 10:08 PM
The US already has established research programmes in racially-targetted bioweapons.

Phrost
23rd April 10, 10:20 PM
Frankly I'd trade 20 million hard working immigrants from anywhere for 20 million welfare loafers of any race.

Ajamil
23rd April 10, 11:23 PM
Which leads to a question that's been nagging me all day. NoB - do you prefer having illegal immigrants since it can drive down horrendously inflated wages created by unions? Take that bus driver you mentioned - Mexicans can drive cars and buses, I've seen it (they can't work the DVD player too well, so don't let them drive the Greyhound Crucero buses).

EuropIan
23rd April 10, 11:27 PM
But they're brown and they will steal my women

Kein Haar
23rd April 10, 11:29 PM
ii) Dismantle all welfare and narcotics-prohibition incentives for them entering and then stop worrying about who has a right to be where so much.

Welfare and drugs don't strike me as the main incentives for crossing illegally.

jkdbuck76
23rd April 10, 11:36 PM
Frankly I'd trade 20 million hard working immigrants from anywhere for 20 million welfare loafers of any race.

Or when the unemployment in this country is near 10% (or higher), why do we still have "guest workers" here? It's time to say "times are lean and it is time for you to go back to your country of origin." Phrost, I live in a town that has a turkey processing plant and it is loaded to the gils with foreign workers....it is time to send them home and make some of the folks in the trailer park down the road do some work in their stead. Over here in Cincinnati, a local Sheriff had a sign on the lawn of the jailhouse that basically said "INS, please help. We are overcrowded with illegals. Come get them."

But back to Arizona....of course Obama doesn't like this thing: a repub state senate and governor are going to do things their way and not wait on the federal government to solve it for them. Gawd forbid that the states decide their own fates.

EuropIan
23rd April 10, 11:40 PM
Or when the unemployment in this country is near 10% (or higher), why do we still have "guest workers" here? It's time to say "times are lean and it is time for you to go back to your country of origin." Phrost, I live in a town that has a turkey processing plant and it is loaded to the gils with foreign workers....it is time to send them home and make some of the folks in the trailer park down the road do some work in their stead. Over here in Cincinnati, a local Sheriff had a sign on the lawn of the jailhouse that basically said "INS, please help. We are overcrowded with illegals. Come get them."

But back to Arizona....of course Obama doesn't like this thing: a repub state senate and governor are going to do things their way and not wait on the federal government to solve it for them. Gawd forbid that the states decide their own fates.
You forgot to mention how they will steal your women.

jkdbuck76
23rd April 10, 11:43 PM
If someone stole my wife, I'd shake his fucking hand and say "Thankyou. You have NO IDEA what you've done for me!!! FREE AT LAST!!!! FREE AT LASAAAAST!!!!"

Ajamil
23rd April 10, 11:48 PM
Once you go brown you never turn `round? You forget the other side of this, MF. We get their women, too.

Besides, my experiences have shown that Mexicans make damn fine Chinese restaurant cooks.

Frank White
23rd April 10, 11:50 PM
But they're brown and they will steal my women

They wouldn't want my woman, she's mexican. And she hates "wetbacks" anyway.

EuropIan
24th April 10, 12:02 AM
u r racetraitor

:3

Ajamil
24th April 10, 12:13 AM
My new boss is Mexican, as are all but three of the morning crew, including myself. And one of them is deaf! It can be really interesting to have English as a second language to most everyone I work with. And do deaf Mexicans sign in a different language? I only really know how to sign the alphabet, but if I'm spelling in English it might not help any. I've learned "You're welcome." I knew "Thank You." I think she said "Throw this away," once, but it was an odd action to mean that - top of wrist touching bottom of chin, fingers wiggling. For all I know she was marking herself as a member of the Cthulu cultists.

She's always very happy, too. My guess is she's either much calmer from not having to hear everyone's shit, or it's too easy to ascribe simpler motives to beings you can't communicate with very well.

Cullion
24th April 10, 07:35 AM
Welfare and drugs don't strike me as the main incentives for crossing illegally.

No, but they're the reasons people disproportionately complain about aren't they?

Spade: The Real Snake
24th April 10, 11:29 AM
They wouldn't want my woman, she's mexican. And she hates "wetbacks" anyway.

make that a double, bartender.

Spade: The Real Snake
24th April 10, 11:42 AM
Welfare and drugs don't strike me as the main incentives for crossing illegally.



San Luis, Ariz., includes a population of only 4,000 people - but 8,100 post-office boxes. Are its residents addicted to mail-order catalogs? No. The city sits just north of the Mexican border and a few miles from California. Every month, thousands of Mexican citizens walk across the border, pick up welfare checks paid by U.S. taxpayers, then scurry back to Mexico. (http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/gazette/access/23611835.html?dids=23611835:23611835&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&type=current&date=May+08%2C+1995&author=&pub=Colorado+Springs+Gazette&desc=End+welfare+fraud+by+ending+welfare&pqatl=google)
The real problem is that of welfare and tax fraud - indeed, of welfare and the income taxes themselves. The Arizona Republic reported that Josefina Rodriguez, the postmistress and vice mayor of tiny San Luis, "sorts thousands of government envelopes containing welfare checks, unemployment checks, and food stamps each month. Add to that the 13,500 income-tax refunds that came to San Luis last year." (http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/gazette/access/23611835.html?dids=23611835:23611835&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&type=current&date=May+08%2C+1995&author=&pub=Colorado+Springs+Gazette&desc=End+welfare+fraud+by+ending+welfare&pqatl=google)
The welfare scam works this way. Mexican citizens come across the border on a visit to relatives, then enroll their children in a local government school. A U.S. address is given. No questions can be asked. The enrollment qualifies the family for welfare and other benefits paid for by U.S. taxpayers. The family returns to Mexico, stopping at San Luis on the way to open a PO box. (http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/gazette/access/23611835.html?dids=23611835:23611835&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&type=current&date=May+08%2C+1995&author=&pub=Colorado+Springs+Gazette&desc=End+welfare+fraud+by+ending+welfare&pqatl=google)


http://archive.gao.gov/paprpdf1/158200.pdf


This has been going on for years. I am trying to find the Phoenix New Times article on this which was written several years ago....but CONVENIENTLY it seems to be scrubbed from their archive search, probably because it doesn't support their new editorial viewpoint.

The story featured a reference to one PO Box which had over 50 families using it. They would get their welfare check, food stamps, WIC checks and every other subsidy, go to the local liquor store/check cashing store, cash the welfare check, sell the food stamps and WIC checks at .25$ on the dollar and take the money back across the border.

Ajamil
24th April 10, 11:53 AM
Damn you, you've given an actual reason to limit their access to education. Could there be a way to check addresses for such activity?

Spade: The Real Snake
24th April 10, 12:03 PM
Damn you, you've given an actual reason to limit their access to education. Could there be a way to check addresses for such activity?

Oh, and bronze-skinned ppl will steal my wimmiz

EuropIan
24th April 10, 12:07 PM
But if all the illegal immigrants leave who will do all the gardening and landscaping?

How will you make those incredibly expensive to maintain farms work?

Spade: The Real Snake
24th April 10, 12:59 PM
But if all the illegal immigrants leave who will do all the gardening and landscaping?

How will you make those incredibly expensive to maintain farms work?

It's Arizona.
WE DON'T FARM except for like some cotton and cattle ranches and shit.

EuropIan
24th April 10, 01:00 PM
It's Arizona.
WE DON'T FARM except for like some cotton and cattle ranches and shit.

http://www.netstate.com/economy/images/az_grown_8.jpg

Kiko
24th April 10, 01:08 PM
But if all the illegal immigrants leave who will do all the gardening and landscaping?

How will you make those incredibly expensive to maintain farms work?

If this happens here, lawns gonna turn brown, plants gonna die and very few of any kind of building will get built.

Oh, and Walmart will be nearly empty.

Spade: The Real Snake
24th April 10, 01:10 PM
You can essentially take everything out of Maricopa county. Housing sprawl has pushed most all the farms out.
Vinyards are going to be smaller label wineries, ala Maynard James Keegan's stuff in Jerome.
Next, have you considered the number of farming examples which are on tribal lands and run/staffed/operated by tribal members?
While that picture is certainly nice it isn't an accurate representation.

WarPhalange
24th April 10, 01:11 PM
Besides, my experiences have shown that Mexicans make damn fine Chinese restaurant cooks.

Japanese restaurants too.

Spade: The Real Snake
24th April 10, 01:11 PM
And how the fuck are there any goddam sheep farms in the fucking Grand Canyon?

EuropIan
24th April 10, 01:39 PM
You can essentially take everything out of Maricopa county. Housing sprawl has pushed most all the farms out.
Vinyards are going to be smaller label wineries, ala Maynard James Keegan's stuff in Jerome.
Next, have you considered the number of farming examples which are on tribal lands and run/staffed/operated by tribal members?
While that picture is certainly nice it isn't an accurate representation.
How about no (http://www.netstate.com/economy/az_economy.htm)

Unless, you know, you're a state full of liars, which I'm cool with btw (http://www.nass.usda.gov/Statistics_by_State/Ag_Overview/AgOverview_AZ.pdf)

Cullion
24th April 10, 01:44 PM
But if all the illegal immigrants leave who will do all the gardening and landscaping?

How will you make those incredibly expensive to maintain farms work?

Did you just argue against paying the working class more ?

Oh you fascist. Now I know what you're doing in New York. You're looking for work as an investment banker, aren't you ?

EuropIan
24th April 10, 01:47 PM
FUCK DA PROLETARIAT!

Spade: The Real Snake
24th April 10, 01:51 PM
So hay, which is listed as numbers two and three, is used for feed in cattle ranching, which I referenced in the original post and is essentially number one.
-and-
number four is cotton, which I referenced in the original post.

How is this lying?

Your first link states ranching is equal to one-half the ag output and crops being the other.

Ranchers "grow" their own hay as there isn't much for the cattle to graze on, that is essentially a no-brainer. Take out cattle ranching and growing one's own hay and you don't have much else by way of agriculture in a desert state.

EuropIan
24th April 10, 01:53 PM
what about Lettuce?

Spade: The Real Snake
24th April 10, 01:57 PM
Lettuce isn't listed on your sourced link (http://www.nass.usda.gov/Statistics_by_State/Ag_Overview/AgOverview_AZ.pdf)

it is, however referenced on this unsourced link (http://www.netstate.com/economy/az_economy.htm)

And in all the time I have lived here, I have seen one lettuce farm and it was on the Fort Mohave Indian Reservation, used for erosion control on their golf course and they serve the produce in their casino restaurants.

EuropIan
24th April 10, 02:02 PM
Ok, it might just be Yuma (http://www.yumalettucedays.com/), Iam willing to accept that those dudes are crazy.

how many golf courses does Arizona have?

Spade: The Real Snake
24th April 10, 02:16 PM
Ok, it might just be Yuma (http://www.yumalettucedays.com/), Iam willing to accept that those dudes are crazy. Oddly enough, the bulk of our lettuce comes from Salinas.
And Yuma is Right On The Border!


how many golf courses does Arizona have? WAY TOO MANY.

EuropIan
24th April 10, 02:28 PM
WAY TOO MANY.
From this I conclude your state have way too many old white people who are scared of brown people.

Kein Haar
24th April 10, 02:51 PM
http://archive.gao.gov/paprpdf1/158200.pdf


This has been going on for years. I am trying to find the Phoenix New Times article on this which was written several years ago....but CONVENIENTLY it seems to be scrubbed from their archive search, probably because it doesn't support their new editorial viewpoint.

The story featured a reference to one PO Box which had over 50 families using it. They would get their welfare check, food stamps, WIC checks and every other subsidy, go to the local liquor store/check cashing store, cash the welfare check, sell the food stamps and WIC checks at .25$ on the dollar and take the money back across the border.

Interesting, I guess I was thinking about "staying" illegally.

Of course, scurrying back to Mexico isn't quite as easy from Illinois.

Good to know, though.

Spade: The Real Snake
24th April 10, 03:10 PM
From this I conclude your state have way too many old white people who are scared of brown people.

Brown People want old white wimminz?

Spade: The Real Snake
24th April 10, 03:13 PM
Interesting, I guess I was thinking about "staying" illegally.
Granted, there are always the medical tourists, who would haul their near-birthing pregger carcass across the border to the nearest ER/free clinic so their child could possess dual-citizenship and attend the finest, overcrowded classes America has to offer.

Wait, doesn't that poke holes in two theories: badd skoolz -n- wurst helf kare?

EuropIan
24th April 10, 03:26 PM
Brown People want old white wimminz?
Sure, but in this case in included their grand daughters.

Spade: The Real Snake
24th April 10, 03:38 PM
Sure, but in this case in included their grand daughters.

SOMEBODY'S GOTTA DO SOMETHING!

EuropIan
24th April 10, 03:47 PM
LETS CHECK THEIR PAPERS AND MAKE SURE THEY WEAR SPECIAL CLOTHING

HappyOldGuy
24th April 10, 03:49 PM
Wait, doesn't that poke holes in two theories: badd skoolz -n- wurst helf kare?

I suppose if you feel proud beating Mexico. :rolleyes:

Anyhow, on topic. I may be wrong, but my read is that this is a protest law. I think that the governor and the legislature intentionally pushed the boundary and passed a law guaranteed to cause controversy and equally guaranteed not to pass court challenges. That way they get to take the moral high ground on a politically popular topic and (being a little generous) use the controversy to push Washington into doing something constructive.

Spade: The Real Snake
24th April 10, 03:55 PM
LETS CHECK THEIR PAPERS AND MAKE SURE THEY WEAR SPECIAL CLOTHING

LIKE FUCKING CHASTITY BELTS THEM FUKKERZ BREED LIKE CRAZY!

Spade: The Real Snake
24th April 10, 04:02 PM
I suppose if you feel proud beating Mexico. :rolleyes:
You = USA?


Anyhow, on topic. I may be wrong, but my read is that this is a protest law. I think that the governor and the legislature intentionally pushed the boundary and passed a law guaranteed to cause controversy and equally guaranteed not to pass court challenges. That way they get to take the moral high ground on a politically popular topic and (being a little generous) use the controversy to push Washington into doing something constructive.
The problem begins on the local level.
You have someone like Arpaio who is Maricopa County Sheriff sending his Deputies into communities where the Mayor is actively telling his police force NOT to enforce the law by not allowing them to inquire about resident status. You have Police Officers being told by the Mayor or City Council "You cannot call ICE if you arrest someone and find they are here illegally."

By this law REQUIRING under State Statute to to inquire, the officers are allowed to ask despite what the Mayor or Council states.

HappyOldGuy
24th April 10, 04:06 PM
By this law REQUIRING under State Statute to to inquire, the officers are allowed to ask despite what the Mayor or Council states.

So you think that your state has the right to make those deputies federal law enforcement officers?

Again, this law seems really unlikely to me to survive court challenges. And when politicians do that, I usually assume it's for a reason.

Ajamil
24th April 10, 04:40 PM
The funny thing with the agriculture is that none of that would be possible if we weren't sucking up the Colorado River, allowing almost no water to reach Mexico anymore. So we take their ability to grow the veggies, then we sneak them over to grow them for us illegally, then we worry who will grow the veggies when we ship them back because we don't want them here.

Spade: The Real Snake
25th April 10, 08:02 AM
So you think that your state has the right to make those deputies federal law enforcement officers?

Again, this law seems really unlikely to me to survive court challenges. And when politicians do that, I usually assume it's for a reason. I think the state government has more of a right to allow LEO to enforce the law then it does for local politicians to prevent them from enforcing it.

EuropIan
25th April 10, 11:21 AM
That is one of the consequences of the law, just not the one that will force it to be repealed.

HappyOldGuy
25th April 10, 11:39 AM
I think the state government has more of a right to allow LEO to enforce the law then it does for local politicians to prevent them from enforcing it.
Actually they are both violating the same principle.

Also, I think there is a common perception that illegal immigration is a criminal matter. It's actually a mix of civil and criminal laws. It's not a clear cut matter at all to say that someone who is here illegally is committing a crime.

Cullion
25th April 10, 11:51 AM
I understand what you think shouldn't be done, HOG, but what do you think should happen ?

HappyOldGuy
25th April 10, 11:58 AM
I understand what you think shouldn't be done, HOG, but what do you think should happen ?

I think that we need to:

Make it possible for the ones who are already here to stay legally.

Tighten up our borders. And aggressively enforce immigration laws after the safe harbor period is over.

Set up a way for employers to verify that their employees are legal, and then penalize the fuck out of any that don't.

Set up a guest worker program for agriculture and maybe a couple of other industries.

Cullion
25th April 10, 12:00 PM
Do you think it's possible to tighten up your borders without doing something draconian and expensive ? The US has a heck of a lot of coastline and border to monitor.

Ajamil
25th April 10, 12:06 PM
Set up a way for employers to verify that their employees are legal, and then penalize the fuck out of any that don't.

Set up a guest worker program for agriculture and maybe a couple of other industries.Don't we have these? Or did you mean fix them?

HappyOldGuy
25th April 10, 12:11 PM
Do you think it's possible to tighten up your borders without doing something draconian and expensive ?

I think that the key after dealing with the ones who are already here is being draconian to employers. And pretty draconian to the illegally employed.

Kein Haar
25th April 10, 12:14 PM
Re: safe harbor period.

It better be retrocative. I.e. If you're already here, fine. If you're not already here, too late. Too bad.

NOT, "ok, you got til April 15th to get here."

Mexico would empty out and capsize us.

HappyOldGuy
25th April 10, 12:19 PM
Re: safe harbor period.

It better be retrocative. I.e. If you're already here, fine. If you're not already here, too late. Too bad.

NOT, "ok, you got til April 15th to get here."

Mexico would empty out and capsize us.

Of course.

Kein Haar
25th April 10, 01:44 PM
But would you expect any less than the latter?

HappyOldGuy
25th April 10, 02:08 PM
I'm not sure what you are asking? What I'm suggesting is something similar to what Reagan tried back in the 80's. Where in order to take advantage of the program, you had to prove you were here before a date from before the program started. That part worked fine back then. What didn't work back then was when the employers realized, "hey wait, you actually meant it that you were going to prosecute us" and used their political leverage to gut funding for enforcement.

Edit: BTW, I wanna be there the first time a cop in AZ asks some AIM members for their proof of citizenship.

Hedley LaMarr
25th April 10, 07:32 PM
The only sensible solution is to take over Mexico. The abducting of American citizens by Mexican drug cartels could be considered an act of war if you are willing to suspend logic. Are military power should be enough to defeat the Mexicans, and since we are seeking to colonize it maintaining control of the area should be relatively easy in contrast to other military incursions of our day.

Their are many benefits to taking over Mexico. The American Southern border would be much smaller (seeing as the Mexican Southern border is close the the connection between North and South America), making it much easier to protect. It would add a new element to the American voting populace and might help to reinvigorate the stagnant overly-partisan political theater America has been experiencing.

There would also been numerous benefits for the current administration. Rarely does a President get booted out of office mid-war. It would give Obama a reason to fully withdraw from Iraq.

HappyOldGuy
25th April 10, 07:34 PM
The only sensible solution is to take over Mexico. The abducting of American citizens by Mexican drug cartels could be considered an act of war if you are willing to suspend logic. Are military power should be enough to defeat the Mexicans, and since we are seeking to colonize it maintaining control of the area should be relatively easy in contrast to other military incursions of our day.

Their are many benefits to taking over Mexico. The American Southern border would be much smaller (seeing as the Mexican Southern border is close the the connection between North and South America), making it much easier to protect. It would add a new element to the American voting populace and might help to reinvigorate the stagnant overly-partisan political theater America has been experiencing.

There would also been numerous benefits for the current administration. Rarely does a President get booted out of office mid-war. It would give Obama a reason to fully withdraw from Iraq.

Canada is up first, Mexico comes after.

Cullion
26th April 10, 05:01 AM
It's going to happen peacefully. That's what the NAU will turn into.

Spade: The Real Snake
26th April 10, 11:03 AM
The only sensible solution is to take over Mexico. The abducting of American citizens by Mexican drug cartels could be considered an act of war if you are willing to suspend logic. Are military power should be enough to defeat the Mexicans, and since we are seeking to colonize it maintaining control of the area should be relatively easy in contrast to other military incursions of our day.

Their are many benefits to taking over Mexico. The American Southern border would be much smaller (seeing as the Mexican Southern border is close the the connection between North and South America), making it much easier to protect. It would add a new element to the American voting populace and might help to reinvigorate the stagnant overly-partisan political theater America has been experiencing.

There would also been numerous benefits for the current administration. Rarely does a President get booted out of office mid-war. It would give Obama a reason to fully withdraw from Iraq.

if that faggot Carter hadn't PanamaCanal-tucked we would have had a much better plan

elipson
27th April 10, 10:53 AM
How does this not violate certain parts of your constitution? Phrost I'm looking at you.

I honestly believed you would be the first person here to be up in arms after a government passes a law saying they can stop and detain whoever they want* and demand proof of innocence.

Don't you have to be charged with a crime BEFORE the cops can stop you? Aren't you innocent until proven guilty? Isn't the onus of proof on the law enforcement and not the charged?

If Obama had passed this you'd be screaming high treason with all the other republicans who seem to be ok with this law.



* The bill says "reasonably suspicious" but does not define what that means.

Ajamil
27th April 10, 10:55 AM
Talk radio was trying to say this is just like when a cop asks to see your driver's license. Except usually you've already done something to warrant questioning when a cop asks to see your license.

I fear "walking down the street" will soon become "loitering suspiciously near a car/bike rack/closed business/personal property."

HappyOldGuy
27th April 10, 11:07 AM
More to the point. The law requires you to carry a license with you any time you operate a car.

There is no requirement to carry proof of citizenship around. Nor does such a thing actually really exist. We don't have a national ID.

jkdbuck76
27th April 10, 12:09 PM
...yet.

Cullion
27th April 10, 12:16 PM
How does this not violate certain parts of your constitution? Phrost I'm looking at you.

I honestly believed you would be the first person here to be up in arms after a government passes a law saying they can stop and detain whoever they want* and demand proof of innocence.

Don't you have to be charged with a crime BEFORE the cops can stop you? Aren't you innocent until proven guilty? Isn't the onus of proof on the law enforcement and not the charged?

If Obama had passed this you'd be screaming high treason with all the other republicans who seem to be ok with this law.



* The bill says "reasonably suspicious" but does not define what that means.

Phrost already said he'd rather they went for the 'remove the welfare components and drug laws which might give the indolent and the criminal to come, and then stop worrying so much about who comes' option.

EuropIan
27th April 10, 01:10 PM
* The bill says "reasonably suspicious" but does not define what that means.

Anyone who looks remotely hispanic

HappyOldGuy
27th April 10, 01:14 PM
Phrost already said he'd rather they went for the 'remove the welfare components and drug laws which might give the indolent and the criminal to come, and then stop worrying so much about who comes' option.

There are plenty of folks wallowing in that bit of cognitive dissonance, but Phrost isn't one of them.

Cullion
27th April 10, 01:20 PM
Check for yourself HOG

http://www.sociocide.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1539883&postcount=18

I'm not sure why you disagree that welfare availability would effect the appeal of a country to the indolent, or why a lucrative black-market for drugs would entice criminals, but I'm certainly going to sit patiently whilst you explain it.

HappyOldGuy
27th April 10, 01:21 PM
Check for yourself HOG

http://www.sociocide.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1539883&postcount=18

I was agreeing with you.

Cullion
27th April 10, 01:23 PM
Oh, uh, alright then.

resolve
27th April 10, 01:27 PM
More to the point. The law requires you to carry a license with you any time you operate a car.

There is no requirement to carry proof of citizenship around. Nor does such a thing actually really exist. We don't have a national ID.


There is one requirement... when using a credit card. I've run into this while doing point of sale stuff for different companies. You run the credit card, a little box (depending on the pos terminal) randomly asks for ID... they don't have any because they don't drive or forgot their license. You tell them you can't complete the transaction without ID, they flip their shit! I actually had an elderly woman tell me I was discriminating against her because I wouldn't let her buy her food when I asked for her ID (she didn't drive). You can easily get a state issued State ID for things like that that works just as well as a driver's license for providing proof of ID. You don't even have to go to the national/federal level.

You also need proof of ID when applying for state benefits or many times when applying for a job. People without a license almost never have a state-issued ID and tend to use things like birth certificates. Most illegals use forgeries though. I had a Fed-Ex smartpost center I worked at raided and shut down after they found 43 different illegal immigrants working there had used the same stolen social security number to apply for the job.

EuropIan
27th April 10, 01:58 PM
Yes, but that still doesn't mean you are required to have one on your person at all times.

Which is what it would mean if your last lame is Alonso or Gonzales

Cullion
27th April 10, 02:27 PM
Or you're just kinda, y'know, funny looking.

Ajamil
27th April 10, 02:42 PM
All those poor Hopi...

"Are you a US Citizen?"
"No."
"Alright let's see some ID!!"

EuropIan
27th April 10, 04:24 PM
Or you're just kinda, y'know, funny looking.
IT IS THE CLOTHES YOU WEAR:

e-BlskNRJ7c

Ajamil
27th April 10, 04:28 PM
Great. Now all the Mexicans will be decked out in American Apparel.

Stick
27th April 10, 06:31 PM
It's not so much the effort to curb illegal immigration that irks me; I don't think people should be here illegally. I do not however believe that warrants asking anyone brown in public to prove on the spot that they're a citizen- that's horse shit, to be it in legal terms.

This is akin to my conflicting stance on the death penalty; I believe that some crimes are worth dying for, but I cannot trust the system to not kill an innocent man and that no one innocent executed is worth all the other guilty dead.

We can't start rounding up hispanic guys born and bred in Phoenix- there for several generations- and throwing them in the clink for the night untill their family can show up with a copy of his fucking birth certificate- oh, and their IDs, of course, they're suspect too after all- that is exactly what this bill will do; natural, legal citizens of the US without proof of their identity on hand are subject to arrest.

When was it acceptable for us emulate East Germany?

Will the next AZ crackdown on illegals involve ID checks on its borders with CA, NV, NM, UT and CO?

It also doesn't help this bill was drafted by a guy with ties to Neo-nazis (http://chattahbox.com/us/2010/04/20/arizonas-disgusting-new-immigration-policy-written-by-neo-nazi-sympathizer/)...

elipson
27th April 10, 09:19 PM
Talk radio was trying to say this is just like when a cop asks to see your driver's license. Except usually you've already done something to warrant questioning when a cop asks to see your license.

So this is the equivalent of driving while black?

Ajamil
27th April 10, 09:25 PM
Worse. Southern AZ has some of the highest car theft rates.

Spade: The Real Snake
28th April 10, 08:03 AM
All those poor Hopi...

Build a Walmart on the rez and they won't need to worry

Kein Haar
28th April 10, 11:29 AM
You know what's super easy?

Stopping them for any number of driving infractions, which simply happens in the course of random traffic stops cuz...ya know...they are fucking everywhere. People thinking cops would TARGETING THEM? Um...you can't AVOID them.

No license? Why not? Oh, no SS number? Oh? Why not? Oh...right...that.

I could be responsible for deporting several a night, every single night....if things were structured to accomodate acquisitions by local law enforcement.

INS, hitherto, does not want to deal with small numbers like that.

So...they go on their way.

Furthermore, neither I, nor anyone I know, would want to target that with any particular zeal, cuz at the end of the day, they are just some cooperative schlub trying to get to and from work. Practically speaking, that's really all it is. It's hard to have a hard-on for that.

FriendlyFire
28th April 10, 11:51 AM
It seems a lot of people take issue to legal immigrants and citizens being checked, so I decided to look up the bill because I am cool like that.


Specifies that a person is presumed to be lawfully present if the person provides any of the following: A valid Arizona driver license.
A valid Arizona nonoperating identification license.
A tribal enrollment card or other form of tribal identification.
A valid federal, state or local government issued identification.


So, how many of you don't carry your drivers license (Or school ID) basically everywhere? Especially if you are a legal immigrant, you tend to always have your green card on you. If your case is that legal citizens might have to show their drivers license to a cop, well aren't they just being treated so horribly... If you don't think we should be trying to deport illegal immigrants, concern yourself with those laws. This is simply enforcement of what is all ready on the books. Also, texas now wants the same law, fun times.

HappyOldGuy
28th April 10, 12:15 PM
It seems a lot of people take issue to legal immigrants and citizens being checked, so I decided to look up the bill because I am cool like that.



So, how many of you don't carry your drivers license (Or school ID) basically everywhere? Especially if you are a legal immigrant, you tend to always have your green card on you. If your case is that legal citizens might have to show their drivers license to a cop, well aren't they just being treated so horribly... If you don't think we should be trying to deport illegal immigrants, concern yourself with those laws. This is simply enforcement of what is all ready on the books. Also, texas now wants the same law, fun times.

No it is not. I repeat. Most immigration cases are civil not criminal matters. Illegal immigrants are not criminals. Determining legal immigration status is a specialized area of the law with it's own set of courts and legal processes. It is not a simple matter of, green card stay, no green card go.

Cullion
28th April 10, 12:16 PM
Not only that, but having to use your driver's licence like an internal passport still sounds fairly authoritarian.

EuropIan
28th April 10, 12:20 PM
So, how many of you don't carry your drivers license (Or school ID) basically everywhere? Especially if you are a legal immigrant, you tend to always have your green card on you. If your case is that legal citizens might have to show their drivers license to a cop, well aren't they just being treated so horribly... If you don't think we should be trying to deport illegal immigrants, concern yourself with those laws. This is simply enforcement of what is all ready on the books.[/SIZE][/FONT] Also, texas now wants the same law, fun times.
I don't. Should i go to jail?

HappyOldGuy
28th April 10, 12:29 PM
Not only that, but having to use your driver's licence like an internal passport still sounds fairly authoritarian.

Agreed. There are a metric fuckton of problems with this law.

lant3rn
28th April 10, 01:40 PM
Maybe its time to take a trip across the border to arizona. I'll get some under the table work building houses, Proceed to get arested under this dumb new law. After the detention i'll bring up some lawsuit saying was falsly arested while on vacation. JACKPOT!!!

elipson
28th April 10, 06:36 PM
I think as a protest to this stupid law all legal arizone citizens who appear "reasonably suspicious" to leave their ID and then go talk to a cop. If large numbers of citizens do this, it would clog the shit out of the system and make the whole thin a waste of resources, which it's going to be already.

Spade: The Real Snake
28th April 10, 06:51 PM
Maybe its time to take a trip across the border to arizona. I'll get some under the table work building houses, Proceed to get arested under this dumb new law. After the detention i'll bring up some lawsuit saying was falsly arested while on vacation. JACKPOT!!!

Go hang around outside a Home Depot with all the daylaborers

Phrost
28th April 10, 07:00 PM
God, if we had an actual operating budget I'd love to do a short film with a bunch of goobery IT workers hanging around outside Home Depot, getting picked up to go write code or replace motherboards.

Spade: The Real Snake
28th April 10, 07:06 PM
KO'D N DOA is looking for a new webmaster....he can pull up in an F-150 outside the Home Depot and a pack of NOB's will start piling into the bed of his truck and KO'D is yelling
"NO. NO NO NO NO NO. NO CINCO NO CINCO!"
holds up a hand with 4 fingers
"QUATRO AMIGO QUAT. RO."
Dudes are still in the back of the truck.
"NO TENGO TRABAJO POR CINCO.........QUATRO. NO QUATRO NO TRABAJO!"

Spade: The Real Snake
28th April 10, 07:12 PM
Next door to the Home Depot is a Best Buy and the Geek Squad sees these vatos hanging around, stealing all their 'bidness' and roll out hard, two-by-two posse style, and begin throwing down with the Home Depot hanging out IT crew.

Harpy
28th April 10, 08:29 PM
Can I see your papers please sir?

Ajamil
28th April 10, 08:34 PM
What I really don't understand is all the conservative - hands off my medicare, govt! - peeps suddenly falling in for a requirement to show ID. Aren't these the same people who always oppose the idea of a national ID?

EuropIan
28th April 10, 08:42 PM
yes, but it doesn't apply to white people, so it's ok.

Kein Haar
28th April 10, 08:57 PM
You and Shawarma share this vicarious ethnic rage. Why?

EuropIan
28th April 10, 09:18 PM
Danes are racist....

Oh wait! I meant: NiggerFaggot please

Kein Haar
28th April 10, 09:33 PM
No, I'm srs.

You two have this cetain anxiety which your stoic countrymen have told you to keep tightly wrapped.

It sputters out in the form of sarcasm....like high pressure steam.

But of all things to be focused on...some other country's "brown people".

Mainly the pervasiveness of the shitty, whiney, ankle-biting, back-door form of discussing these things.

Help me understand.

Mexicans are not an oppressed race, btw.

EuropIan
28th April 10, 09:41 PM
No, I'm srs.

You two have this cetain anxiety which your stoic countrymen have told you to keep tightly wrapped.

Shawarma was an arab in a blonde haired blue-eyed country. There is little overlap between our upbringing.



It sputters out in the form of sarcasm....like steam escaping.

But of all things to be focused on...some other country's "brown people".

racism is a universal theme, sarcasm is awesome.
And why are you saying "some other country's"?


Mainly the pervasiveness of it.

Help me understand.

Which is pervasive? The sarcasm or the opposition to racist policies?

How?



Mexicans are not an oppressed race, btw.
Not the point, my main point of contention is how unfair it is to harass people based on their skin color.

Kein Haar
28th April 10, 09:44 PM
Shawarma is an arab?

He said he wasn't.

Wtf is going on?

EuropIan
28th April 10, 09:46 PM
Shawarma is an arab?

He said he wasn't.

Wtf is going on?
source?

Kein Haar
28th April 10, 09:59 PM
Your mom.

Stop being a little bitch.

AZ did exactly the right thing. Hopefully TX does the exact same thing.

A power vacuum in any organization suctions up stupid ideas and people. This is a decent cry for help, actually.

I would like the response to be: "Ok, Obama. We understand you don't like this, so....that was our solution. Plz give us your own idea to achieve the desired objectives."

I can't wait for the lulz when that happens.

You know what Obama said recently?

Talking about the White Sox he goes: "Oh, I'm a south side kid."

Reporter: "Oh? Who were you favorite players growing up."

"Erm...um...you know, I'm a big Cubs fan too. There are just so many great players, I ....um...this is going to be a great game tonight...."

He also spoke on Letterman about a "great soul food restaurant on the west side...MacArthurs."

Obama is a poser, and he just got trolled into unelecting himself on this issue. Cuz any achieving of the desired objectives will always be called racist as long as messicans remain brownish. Any non-achievement will be lol'ed as failure. No-win for a non-white president. lol

I feel the lulz in my whole being...including my pee pee.

EuropIan
28th April 10, 10:07 PM
I remember Shawarma stating he wasn't a muslim, perhaps you are confusing the two.

Either way, I would like to point out how immigration reform is a sacred cow in the US in the sense that no one will touch it, republican or democrat. e.g. Bush jr tried to initiate immigration reform and was stopped by his own party in doing so. Obama will try his hand at immigration reform and he will most likely fail as well.


Now, onto the topic at hand, this law is dumb and it is racist. And will ultimately be repealed.

HappyOldGuy
28th April 10, 10:13 PM
I feel the lulz in my whole being...including my pee pee.

So we're talking showdown?

Vatos versus teabaggers?

I think I need a tissue.

Kein Haar
28th April 10, 10:17 PM
I don't know the issues with boarder states. That's kind of proprietary and I'm sure there are plenty of truly legitimate reasons to reasonably control the border.

Your dumb if you have a personal issue with mexicans. You really are. We could use a greater injection of their simple personal accountability. They plead guilty to EVERYTHING. Defense lawyers hate them as clients.

Cullion
29th April 10, 02:09 AM
No, I'm srs.

You two have this cetain anxiety which your stoic countrymen have told you to keep tightly wrapped.

It sputters out in the form of sarcasm....like high pressure steam.

But of all things to be focused on...some other country's "brown people".

Mainly the pervasiveness of the shitty, whiney, ankle-biting, back-door form of discussing these things.

Help me understand.

Mexicans are not an oppressed race, btw.

It's got nothing to with being danish. It's just the default position for middle class white kids who've spent any time at college or around left-wing parents. They have to express it sarcastically because it in no way represents any form of edifying independence of thought or rebellion in our generation.

Kein Haar
29th April 10, 03:19 AM
Sarcasm has it's place. But you have own up to what it means. Maybe that's what's missing.

It means whatever it is you're implying is such a foregone conclusion that you don't even have to directly state it. It's like an inside joke which you're intentionally keeping from people you think are total idiots.

That's not very inclusive.

It's also better reserved for really objective facts. Maybe that's why Poop Loops is stuck in that mode. Numbers and such. Fitting in that context, I guess. Social issues though? Well, we see how well he deals with those. Shooting people legs and stuff.

EuropIan
29th April 10, 03:21 AM
It's got nothing to with being danish. It's just the default position for middle class white kids who've spent any time at college or around left-wing parents. They have to express it sarcastically because it in no way represents any form of edifying independence of thought or rebellion in our generation.
Oh yeah? well your mom



Sarcasm has it's place. But you have own up to what it means. Maybe that's what's missing.

It means whatever it is you're implying is such a foregone conclusion that you don't even have to directly state it. It's like an inside joke which you're intentionally keeping from people you think are total idiots.

That's not very inclusive.

I think this law is racist. no sarcasm.

Kein Haar
29th April 10, 03:23 AM
She's a lovely woman.

EuropIan
29th April 10, 03:27 AM
Indeed she is.

Ajamil
29th April 10, 04:40 AM
Obama should play the teabaggers off of the issue. Embrace what AZ is doing and use it as a support to initiate a National ID card. The Republicans will have to go against what AZ is doing so they can be against Obama and a Natl. ID. The law is repealed and Obama can stand there saying he was for it, while also getting kudos for stopping it.

lant3rn
29th April 10, 10:15 AM
Obama should play the teabaggers off of the issue. Embrace what AZ is doing and use it as a support to initiate a National ID card. The Republicans will have to go against what AZ is doing so they can be against Obama and a Natl. ID. The law is repealed and Obama can stand there saying he was for it, while also getting kudos for stopping it.

But den he's loose da Base

Spade: The Real Snake
29th April 10, 10:31 AM
Obama should play the teabaggers off of the issue. Embrace what AZ is doing and use it as a support to initiate a National ID card. The Republicans will have to go against what AZ is doing so they can be against Obama and a Natl. ID. The law is repealed and Obama can stand there saying he was for it, while also getting kudos for stopping it.

Obama fears losing the brown vote and therefor will do nothing of the sort.

I am still awaiting all the refugee buses from San Francisco to come pouring into our state and scurry away all the oppressed and downtrodden and invite them into their sanctuary city.

HappyOldGuy
29th April 10, 10:46 AM
Obama fears losing the brown vote and therefor will do nothing of the sort.

I am still awaiting all the refugee buses from San Francisco to come pouring into our state and scurry away all the oppressed and downtrodden and invite them into their sanctuary city.
Err, we have quite alot of them in California. More than you do actually.

Plus, we would have to buy gas in AZ, and we've decided we aren't going to buy anything from you because Nazi's.

Spade: The Real Snake
29th April 10, 11:00 AM
Err, we have quite alot of them in California. More than you do actually.
Are you saying that you have ENOUGH bronze-skinned folk there?


Plus, we would have to buy gas in AZ, and we've decided we aren't going to buy anything from you because Nazi's.
HOW DO BIOFUEL NAZI!

HappyOldGuy
29th April 10, 11:10 AM
Are you saying that you have ENOUGH bronze-skinned folk there?

Just a higher quality.

Spade: The Real Snake
29th April 10, 11:51 AM
Just a higher quality.

So you are saying "illegals" are lower quality bronze-skins?

I'm calling the UCLA.

HappyOldGuy
29th April 10, 12:03 PM
So you are saying "illegals" are lower quality bronze-skins?



Arizonans.

lant3rn
29th April 10, 12:17 PM
Californian chicanos will be the premium unleaded
And the Arizonan ones will be the regular. Right HOG?

HappyOldGuy
29th April 10, 12:19 PM
diesel

Spade: The Real Snake
29th April 10, 12:21 PM
Better check your Amazon shipments out of Phoenix.
U might find a couple of border-jumpers being Primed to you

Ajamil
29th April 10, 02:44 PM
This is a good place to ask - as good as any, I suppose.

What's the difference between Latin American, Latino, Hispanic, and Chicano?

lant3rn
29th April 10, 02:54 PM
diesel

Now that croses the line commandant.

Spade: The Real Snake
29th April 10, 04:12 PM
This is a good place to ask - as good as any, I suppose.

What's the difference between Latin American, Latino, Hispanic, and Chicano?

I guess about the same as African-American, Afro-Americans, Blacks, Coloreds, Negros, etc.

It is a polite colloquialism that is bound to offend SOMEBODY when trying to offend NOBODY.

Ajamil
29th April 10, 04:16 PM
Wait really? I thought there was some regional difference. My only experience saying anything other than Hispanic was the scene in 187 where he calls the girl Hispanic and she gets upset, retorting with, "I'm Chicano!"

You sure this isn't one of those Japanese vs. Korean vs. Vietnamese or English vs. Welsh vs. Scottish where no one else can understand any difference but it's a matter worth killing for to those who live it?

Spade: The Real Snake
29th April 10, 04:25 PM
Wait really? I thought there was some regional difference. My only experience saying anything other than Hispanic was the scene in 187 where he calls the girl Hispanic and she gets upset, retorting with, "I'm Chicano!"

You sure this isn't one of those Japanese vs. Korean vs. Vietnamese or English vs. Welsh vs. Scottish where no one else can understand any difference but it's a matter worth killing for to those who live it?

IF she was a really girl it should be Chicana or Chica

AFAIK it is more regional US differences then country of origin differences. Now if you are talking differences between Latino/a with ethnicity being traced back to Mayan/Incan/Aztek before the fucking dirty "Lights Out" ancestors went buggering their way across the New World, fucking up THEIR language/borders/culture then you might have something.

SpringHeeledJack
29th April 10, 05:11 PM
This is a good place to ask - as good as any, I suppose.

What's the difference between Latin American, Latino, Hispanic, and Chicano?I had a friend explain to me that Chicano meant a US citizen of Mexican descent. He was Chicano and would get super-pissed if you called him Mexican. As for the differences between the other terms, I have no idea.

Ajamil
29th April 10, 05:13 PM
Next time I ask wiser geeks (http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-the-difference-between-latino-chicano-and-hispanic.htm) first.

The most straightforward of the three cultural identifiers may be the word Chicano. "Chicano" refers specifically to Mexican-Americans, or anyone else of Mexican heritage. When Mexican workers and their families first moved into America, they were often referred to as "Mexicanos," which became shortened over time to "Xicanos" or "Chicanos". At first, "Chicano" was considered to be derogatory, somewhat akin to "Chinaman" or "Negro." Eventually, however, many in the Mexican-American community embraced the term, at least informally. There are still older Mexican-Americans who view "Chicano" as something less than respectful. It should only be used to describe those of Mexican descent, not those of Central or South American descent.
The word "Hispanic" is a bit more universal than "Chicano." Historically, areas conquered by the Spaniards were considered part of a region originally called Hispania. Modern countries which can trace their history to Spain are now considered to be Hispanic, and include Mexico, Central America, and most of South America where Spanish is the primary language. The only exception to this Hispanic designation is Brazil, which was settled by Portugal, not Spain. Any citizen of those countries originally colonized by Spain can be considered Hispanic. People from Mexico, El Salvador, Guatemala, Panama and other areas south of the American border would all be considered Hispanic.
"Latino" is very close in meaning to Hispanic, but it also includes other countries such as Brazil. The regional description "Latin America" now refers to the countries where Romance languages (http://www.wisegeek.com/what-are-the-most-common-languages.htm) (Spanish, Portuguese) are spoken, but was originally used by Napoleon to describe other Romance speaking (French included) territories throughout the Americas. To be described as a Latino is not considered derogatory, although it can be construed as a generic for all Hispanic cultures, much like referring to a Korean or Japanese-American as "Asian." While "Latino" may be politically and socially correct, it may more culturally sensitive to learn a person's specific heritage and refer to him or her as "Nicaraguan" or "Guatemalan" rather than the broader "Latino."

Oh I see (http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/32885/an_americans_guide_to_understanding.html), so Chicano(a) is like nigger - I'm not really suppoed to say it, but it's a source of bonding for those who are?

There is also the issue of the word Chicano (or Chicana, for women). This term has been gaining popularity among Americans in recent years. Chicano is used to describe only an American with Mexican heritage, or Mexican American. Originally, Chicano, which is an abbreviation of the word Mexicano, was used by non-Hispanics as a racial slur. Around the 1950s, however, Mexican Americans adopted the word Chicano. The word changed from a derogative to a source of confidence for Mexican Americans.

How did they manage to get their slur capitalized?

Kein Haar
29th April 10, 09:45 PM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100430/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_immigration_politics

Obama takes immigration reform off agenda! LOL

No f'ing -s-!

hahahahahhaha!

Any solution to problems with Mexico's border will be called racist.

I wonder how the black community feels about being politically marginalized like this.

EuropIan
29th April 10, 10:12 PM
As I said no president, republican or democrat, will touch immigration reform.

jkdbuck76
30th April 10, 11:53 AM
As I said no president, republican or democrat, will touch immigration reform.

Yep. Chimp W Chimp had 8 years and he didn't.

It is the proverbial "hand grenade dipped in AIDS."

EuropIan
30th April 10, 12:01 PM
Chimp W Chimp even tried, but was heavily sabotaged by his own base.

Zendetta
30th April 10, 09:13 PM
Well, you gotta understand, the Republicans can't decide whether they hate wetbacks more than they love having a legally-exploitable underclass.

Cullion
30th April 10, 09:39 PM
Zendetta gets it. Mass immigration is not a right-vs-left issue, it's a capitalist-vs-worker issue, in a mercantilist sense.

Zendetta
30th April 10, 09:46 PM
In a closely related matter,

LOLGordonBrownPRFAILOLOLOLOL

Cullion
30th April 10, 09:48 PM
What worries me is that with our current electoral boundaries for each constituency, the Labour party could come 3rd place in the popular vote, yet still have the most MPs.

I'm following Greek and Spanish economics at the moment. The UK needs to be careful. It's time to sober up for us.

Spade: The Real Snake
1st May 10, 10:25 AM
Zendetta gets it. Mass immigration is not a right-vs-left issue, it's a capitalist-vs-worker issue, in a mercantilist sense.

Are you factoring in the pandering of the left vs. right to the largest growing undecided voter base?

BadUglyMagic
2nd May 10, 09:02 PM
Zendetta gets it. Mass immigration is not a right-vs-left issue, it's a capitalist-vs-worker issue, in a mercantilist sense.


Mexico has a policy of encouraging its people to export themselves to the US. The Mexican federal (state and local) gain is the remittance of US dollars which is second to the cash gained by oil sales.

IMO, the Mexican government has gained the economic benefits of invasion and occupation without the traditional costs or risks.

It seems to be more of a capitalist v worker issue in Mexico.