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View Full Version : Richard Dawkins is planning to have the Pope arrested!



Craigypooh
11th April 10, 01:49 PM
For trying to cover up child abuse in the church. Under UK law anyone can be arrested for crimes against humanity wherever those crimes happened.

Who says atheists don't know how to have fun?


Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens, the atheist author, are seeking advice from human rights lawyers as to what legal action can be taken against the pope over his alleged cover-up of sexual abuse in the Catholic church.

Dawkin and Hitchens believe he should face criminal proceedings because his "first instinct" was to protect the church rather than the children in its care.

They are hoping to exploit the same legal principle used to arrest Augusto Pinochet, the late Chilean dictator, on a Spanish warrant when he visited Britain in 1998.

The Pope will be visit London, Glasgow and Coventry, during his time in the UK between September 16 and 19.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/religion/7578024/Richard-Dawkins-planning-to-have-Pope-Benedict-arrested-over-crimes-against-humanity.html

Cullion
11th April 10, 01:51 PM
I told you he was nuts.

Craigypooh
11th April 10, 01:56 PM
Whole hazelnuts.

Robot Jesus
11th April 10, 02:07 PM
anything that causes more trouble for the pope at this point can only do good. reading press releases from various catholic authorities is just sickening; no admission of wrong doing, only admitting that there is a media shit storm going on. they need to realize they can't spin this and their claims of infallibility have painted them into a corner. they can't claim this was isolated incidents, or fringe elements in the church anymore.

how's this playing in Italy? over here every one and their dog is attacking the Church, especially Catholics.

Ka-Bar
11th April 10, 02:55 PM
Oh, this would be like Christmas, Hannukah, Eid and Kwanzaa all combined if this shitstorm actually went down.

I think Hitchens is crazy enough to do it.

Wounded Ronin
11th April 10, 03:32 PM
What I don't understand is why the Catholic church seems to have attracted so many pedophiles from the previous generation.

HappyOldGuy
11th April 10, 03:42 PM
A celibate priesthood makes a problematic sexuality look like a calling. If god calls you to a celibate lifestyle already...

In my family, this manifested as pushing gay members towards the priesthood, but I assume it works out similarly for other problematic sexual stuff.

Cullion
11th April 10, 03:45 PM
I think HoG has nailed it. It would surprise me not at all if most of the time the people in question weren't even consciously sure what their 'problematic sexuality' was at the time when the enlist, they just have this funny feeling inside that a mainstream family life is not for them.

Aphid Jones
11th April 10, 04:11 PM
Do you think there's still a large percentage of "legitimately called" to celibacy priests in the church, Cullion?

You don't really see these scandals coming out of the Orthodox, are they just good at covering it up or is there a real difference?

WarPhalange
11th April 10, 04:13 PM
I told you he has nuts.

Fixed.

Robot Jesus
11th April 10, 04:26 PM
Do you think there's still a large percentage of "legitimately called" to celibacy priests in the church, Cullion?



not addressed to me, but probably. If you are confused about your sexuality and are catholic the cloth makes a great way to live in denial and not deal with your issues until it manifests in an incident, this doesn't mean there aren't many priests who mentally normal. the real question is why the normal people allowed this to go on; I assume it's a bit like when you find your child's stash of porn, many people would rather pretend that it didn't happen then bring it up.

Cullion
11th April 10, 04:45 PM
Do you think there's still a large percentage of "legitimately called" to celibacy priests in the church, Cullion?

I don't know, I don't really have any contact with catholic clergy these days, I told my parents I didn't believe in God when I was a teenager and just stopped going to church. I certainly don't believe that the majority of catholic priests are paedophiles, and never encountered it in my own youth. Most catholic priests I met seemed to be kind of sad, lonely people (a few of them had obvious drink problems) with a minority of cheerful exceptions who for whom the religion seemed to be a real source of energy.

My irish uncles have told me some horror stories about an order who ran Catholic Boys' schools in Ireland called 'The Christian Brothers' who they unanimously describe as really deranged sadists who they wouldn't allow within 10 yards of their own children.



You don't really see these scandals coming out of the Orthodox, are they just good at covering it up or is there a real difference?

Orthodox priests are often allowed to marry. Celibacy isn't really mandatory for 'traditional' or 'old world' Christian priesthoods in a biblical sense. IIRC a lot of the pressure for celibacy in the Roman church came because the Western European nobility were worried about priestly dynasties forming to challenge their own.

Tyrsmann
11th April 10, 05:10 PM
You know as ridiculous as this whole idea sounds I think there is some worth to it. The Vatican has simply trying to cover their ass instead of apologizing for utter fuck ups when it comes to pedophile priests. Seriously nab this guy and hold him in a jail cell for a few hours until the church acknowledges its' problems and makes public statements of what it will do to remedy them.

Shit, you know fuck the jail cell just don't allow the guy to leave U.K. soil for a few hours and have the Archbishop of canterbury talk to him about fixing their pedophile problem. Some kind of symbolic act to show that The Vatican is pissing people off with their bullshit.

Aphid Jones
11th April 10, 05:15 PM
Orthodox priests are often allowed to marry. Celibacy isn't really mandatory for 'traditional' or 'old world' Christian priesthoods in a biblical sense. IIRC a lot of the pressure for celibacy in the Roman church came because the Western European nobility were worried about priestly dynasties forming to challenge their own.
This is what I was thinking; there isn't a pressure to become celibate or the notion that homosexuality= celibacy calling.

So the celibate are probably really called to celibacy, or able at least.

nifoc
11th April 10, 05:25 PM
I don't know if it could be considered a"Crime against humanity", but covering up a criminal act is in fact illegal, even in Italy... So he definately should be charged with that crime at least.

It doesn't really matter wether or not this is the right way to go, at least it brings attention to the fact that he did commit a criminal offense and should be treated accordingly.

HappyOldGuy
11th April 10, 05:41 PM
I don't know if it could be considered a"Crime against humanity", but covering up a criminal act is in fact illegal, even in Italy... So he definately should be charged with that crime at least.

It doesn't really matter wether or not this is the right way to go, at least it brings attention to the fact that he did commit a criminal offense and should be treated accordingly.

What offense in what jurisdiction? Be specific.

nifoc
11th April 10, 05:46 PM
Jurisdiction is the only problem that I can see. The crime would be obstruction of justice or something similar.

Do you disagree that aiding in the covering-up of a criminal offense is illegal?

Cullion
11th April 10, 05:48 PM
HoG has a point, you do actually have to cite a law before accusing somebody of breaking it. 'Legal' and 'Moral' aren't the same thing.

HappyOldGuy
11th April 10, 05:49 PM
Jurisdiction is the only problem that I can see. The crime would be obstruction of justice or something similar.

Do you disagree that aiding in the covering-up of a criminal offense is illegal?
That isn't even under discussion. The only evidence against the pope is that he delayed defrocking a pedophile priest who was already arrested, tried, and convicted for the crime. There is no evidence anywhere for his interfering with a criminal investigation.

nifoc
11th April 10, 05:56 PM
Ah, then I misunderstood and withdraw the comment. If the priest dealt with by authorities then I guess no crime was commited by Ratzinger.

One has to ask why they didn't want to defrock him however...but that is hardly illegal.

Wounded Ronin
11th April 10, 09:13 PM
A celibate priesthood makes a problematic sexuality look like a calling. If god calls you to a celibate lifestyle already...

In my family, this manifested as pushing gay members towards the priesthood, but I assume it works out similarly for other problematic sexual stuff.

Hmm, interesting. Were gay people explicitly and consciously pushed towards the priesthood or was it more based on hunches and subconsciously motivated actions?

Ajamil
11th April 10, 09:16 PM
The people happy about this need to consider what the implications will be when the prosecution fails. Will be seen as an absolution for the church? Will we never be allowed to talk of these things happening because, "the pope was tried and he's innocent!"

ISKCON had a huge problem with this as well, not just molestation and abuse, but the cover-ups. I am thankful the organization finally got their collective heads out of their asses and clamped down on such things happening (though I bet it's still a danger). Anyway, I bring this up because one thing I saw while hearing the arguments and debates (one guru was convicted of pedophilia and abuse, yet was still initiating and having disciples) is that people just don't lose...what, confidence? trust? their esteem of the person?

Those above "see the good he/she's done" and those below are looking up to them. It becomes a tragedy of rationalization and "he's repented," and "never happen again." It might be different for Catholicism - I don't think the ties to any one person within a diocese is as intimate as a guru-disciple relationship. Still, the person can create such a strong, apparently necessary bond between the church and the congregation, that people from all sides are incredibly willing to forgive such a heinous crime.

I disagree with this. I think it is vitally important to keep such self-imposed morally ideal positions free of anything that tarnishes the reputation of the position. Prabhupda was fond of saying better an empty barn than a barn full of sick cows.

HappyOldGuy
11th April 10, 10:14 PM
Hmm, interesting. Were gay people explicitly and consciously pushed towards the priesthood or was it more based on hunches and subconsciously motivated actions?

Bearing in mind this is stuff I saw through the eyes of a kid. I would say both, but more the latter.

AAAhmed46
12th April 10, 12:40 AM
They gotta screen better. Thats really more the issue.

AAAhmed46
12th April 10, 12:41 AM
wow, anything with "Dawkins" has alot of people currently viewing the thread.

well, better him then Hitchens(for various reasons)

nihilist
12th April 10, 12:41 AM
I certainly don't believe that the majority of Moslems are terrorists...

Arhetton
12th April 10, 01:36 AM
we already know how this ends



http://impoliteconversation.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/lackoffaith.jpg

http://media.ebaumsworld.com/picture/ryanposhusta/PopePalpatine.png
pM_nBvjpidE

Odacon
12th April 10, 05:51 AM
There's only one way this will go, dawkins will be bundled into a van by a gang of dog collars at some point and spend the rest of his short life dressed as a choirboy being hockeyed out of it by the pope and his mates.

bob
12th April 10, 05:53 AM
Dawkins is an idiot. Doesn't he realise that it was the jooz (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/apr/11/catholic-bishop-blames-jews).

Cullion
12th April 10, 09:50 AM
That's a pretty good troll from the old Bishop, but it's already been done better by Gibson.

Next time I get arrested, I'm going to be blaming the Freemasons, to try and keep it fresh.

Fearless Ukemi
12th April 10, 10:07 AM
But the Freemasons run the world. Better blame someone else....

Ajamil
12th April 10, 10:09 AM
Blame 4chan, they'll love the attention.

KO'd N DOA
12th April 10, 11:39 AM
Maybe the Pope will have Dawkings extradited to the Vatican, to see how committed Dawkings is to his belief system.

Vatican Science Equation

Blasphemer + Rack = Official Recanting of Heresy

(*vatican is looking to bring back the youth to the fold - this real time on youtube could get a few million hits and inspire catholics everywhere)

Feryk
12th April 10, 02:14 PM
The Vatican needs to have a mechanism to punt their preists expeditiously. Until now, they've been able to hide these people by moving them to different parishes. There really hadn't been a world wide, organized campaign to put a stop to this bullshit. It will be much more difficult now.

Dawkins is doing this as a publicity stunt (and it's working beautifully).

The Pope is under pressure, but he believes he can weather it because he's-a da frickin' Pope! Maybe he can, but at some point he will have to get it that he is marginalizing Catholicism in the western world with his lack of response to this issue.

Phrost
12th April 10, 02:49 PM
We need to start a website devoted to tracking pedo priests.

cyrijl
12th April 10, 03:22 PM
And how is he going to get around the whole diplomatic immunity thing?

Cullion
12th April 10, 03:33 PM
We need to start a website devoted to tracking pedo priests.

You're looking for a date? You're not really a twink any more dude.

HappyOldGuy
12th April 10, 03:35 PM
You're looking for a date? You're not really a twink any more dude.

Phrost is till a little boyish around the eyes. A couple hit of communion wine and I'd probably let him "receive my confession."

Commodore Pipes
12th April 10, 03:37 PM
One has to ask why they didn't want to defrock him however...but that is hardly illegal.

Probably because they believe in stupid shit like redeeming grace and shit.

nifoc
13th April 10, 04:15 AM
And how is he going to get around the whole diplomatic immunity thing?
According to the articel referenced by the OP, Ratzinger may not be able to claim Diplomatic Immunity, at least not if he is charged with crimes against humanity (don't know if this applies to other crimes as well. According to the human rights lawyers Dawkins and Hitchens has contacted the pope is not the head-of-state and the Vatican is not a proper state.

Besides, how would it look if Ratzinger claimed diplomatic immunity instead of answering the charges? The biggest problem right now seems to be that the Vatican has refused to comment on the events other than say that it was "unfortunate" and put their heads in the sand. Rather than taking public steps to prevent it happening again, they are waiting for it to blow over.

A catholic friend mentioned an asshole cardinal (or maybe bishop, don't remember) saying in an interview that this sort of thing won't happen again, because they don't allow homosexuals to become priests anymore. If there are more like that one in the Vatican (and it seems to be the case), then it is really sad. She also mentioned that most priests are apparently never taught how to handle their own sexuality, and many don't realize until too late that you don't become asexual just because you take preistly vows.

I don't think Dawkins really wants to take Ratzinger to trial, I think it is more a matter of drawing attention to the fact that priests are not above the law and should not be allowed to hide under the catholic church.

I second Phrosts idea of making a website keeping track of pedo-priests that are sheltered by any church. These people should not work (as many of them have) with children, most of them are sick and should be given medicines or psychological treatments.

cyrijl
13th April 10, 12:07 PM
Since medieval times the episcopal see of Rome has been recognized as a sovereign entity. The Holy See (not the State of Vatican City) maintains formal diplomatic relations with 178 sovereign states, and also with the European Union, and the Sovereign Military Order of Malta, as well as having relations of a special character with the Palestine Liberation Organization;[6] 69 of the diplomatic missions accredited to the Holy See are situated in Rome. The Holy See maintains 180 permanent diplomatic missions abroad, of which 74 are non-residential, so that many of its 106 concrete missions are accredited to two or more countries or international organizations. The diplomatic activities of the Holy See are directed by the Secretariat of State (headed by the Cardinal Secretary of State), through the Section for Relations with States. There are 16 internationally recognized states with which the Holy See does not have relations. [7] The Holy See is the only European subject of international law that has official diplomatic relations with Republic of China (Taiwan).

The Holy See is a member of various International organizations and groups including the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), International Telecommunication Union, the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE) and the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR). The Holy See is also a permanent observer in various international organizations, including the United Nations General Assembly, the Council of Europe, UNESCO (United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization), the World Trade Organization (WTO), and the Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO).

The idea of "answering the charges" is just ridiculous.


I don't think Dawkins really wants to take Ratzinger to trial, I think it is more a matter of drawing attention to the fact that priests are not above the law and should not be allowed to hide under the catholic church.

I think Dawkins is just an attention whore. Not as bad as Hitchens, but getting there.

HappyOldGuy
13th April 10, 04:40 PM
I think Dawkins is just an attention whore.
Bears repeating.

nihilist
13th April 10, 04:51 PM
Well, it doesn't quite reach the level of riding around in a bulletproof popemobile...

Ajamil
13th April 10, 05:04 PM
http://files.myopera.com/bskushwah/blog/kumbhvasudevananda%2014.jpg

I've seen worse. (Wanna bet that's gold plated?)

Edit: Look at how badly they're carrying that parasol! He isn't shaded in the slightest. If you're going to devote yourself to a guy, at least do it right.

Cullion
13th April 10, 05:06 PM
Well, it doesn't quite reach the level of riding around in a bulletproof popemobile...

Just try again with a bomb, or poison next time.

nihilist
13th April 10, 10:11 PM
God only knows what will happen.

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
15th April 10, 09:02 AM
Apparently Pope Bene doesnt have immunity in the UK...

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/21/20100411/tuk-pope-has-no-uk-arrest-immunity-6323e80.html

Blue Negation
15th April 10, 02:15 PM
Apparently Pope Bene doesnt have immunity in the UK...

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/21/20100411/tuk-pope-has-no-uk-arrest-immunity-6323e80.html
A few posts up from your post:
Since medieval times the episcopal see of Rome has been recognized as a sovereign entity. The Holy See (not the State of Vatican City) maintains formal diplomatic relations with 178 sovereign states, and also with the European Union, and the Sovereign Military Order of Malta, as well as having relations of a special character with the Palestine Liberation Organization;[6] 69 of the diplomatic missions accredited to the Holy See are situated in Rome. The Holy See maintains 180 permanent diplomatic missions abroad, of which 74 are non-residential, so that many of its 106 concrete missions are accredited to two or more countries or international organizations. The diplomatic activities of the Holy See are directed by the Secretariat of State (headed by the Cardinal Secretary of State), through the Section for Relations with States. There are 16 internationally recognized states with which the Holy See does not have relations. [7] The Holy See is the only European subject of international law that has official diplomatic relations with Republic of China (Taiwan).

The Holy See is a member of various International organizations and groups including the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), International Telecommunication Union, the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE) and the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR). The Holy See is also a permanent observer in various international organizations, including the United Nations General Assembly, the Council of Europe, UNESCO (United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization), the World Trade Organization (WTO), and the Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO).

HappyOldGuy
15th April 10, 02:17 PM
A dawkinsite shooting their mouth off in print without getting their facts right?

Well I'm certainly shocked.

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
22nd April 10, 06:28 AM
Priestly abuse of children is nowadays taken to mean sexual abuse, and I feel obliged, at the outset, to get the whole matter of sexual abuse into proportion and out of the way. Others have noted that we live in a time of hysteria about pedophilia, a mob psychology that calls to mind the Salem witch-hunts of 1692… All three of the boarding schools I attended employed teachers whose affections for small boys overstepped the bounds of propriety. That was indeed reprehensible. Nevertheless, if, fifty years on, they had been hounded by vigilantes or lawyers as no better than child murderers, I should have felt obliged to come to their defense, even as the victim of one of them (an embarrassing but otherwise harmless experience).

The Roman Catholic Church has borne a heavy share of such retrospective opprobrium. For all sorts of reasons I dislike the Roman Catholic Church. But I dislike unfairness even more, and I can’t help wondering whether this one institution has been unfairly demonized over the issue, especially in Ireland and America… We should be aware of the remarkable power of the mind to concoct false memories, especially when abetted by unscrupulous therapists and mercenary lawyers. The psychologist Elizabeth Loftus has shown great courage, in the face of spiteful vested interests, in demonstrating how easy it is for people to concoct memories that are entirely false but which seem, to the victim, every bit as real as true memories. This is so counter-intuitive that juries are easily swayed by sincere but false testimony from witnesses.

From "The God Delusion" Richard Dawkins pp. 315-16; 2006

Arhetton
22nd April 10, 08:21 AM
i think its more for the publicity than the principle of the thing.

his position has been made clear in the passages you quoted from his book.

good reference by the way. +rep

Cullion
22nd April 10, 08:53 AM
Priestly abuse of children is nowadays taken to mean sexual abuse, and I feel obliged, at the outset, to get the whole matter of sexual abuse into proportion and out of the way. Others have noted that we live in a time of hysteria about pedophilia, a mob psychology that calls to mind the Salem witch-hunts of 1692… All three of the boarding schools I attended employed teachers whose affections for small boys overstepped the bounds of propriety. That was indeed reprehensible. Nevertheless, if, fifty years on, they had been hounded by vigilantes or lawyers as no better than child murderers, I should have felt obliged to come to their defense, even as the victim of one of them (an embarrassing but otherwise harmless experience).

The Roman Catholic Church has borne a heavy share of such retrospective opprobrium. For all sorts of reasons I dislike the Roman Catholic Church. But I dislike unfairness even more, and I can’t help wondering whether this one institution has been unfairly demonized over the issue, especially in Ireland and America… We should be aware of the remarkable power of the mind to concoct false memories, especially when abetted by unscrupulous therapists and mercenary lawyers. The psychologist Elizabeth Loftus has shown great courage, in the face of spiteful vested interests, in demonstrating how easy it is for people to concoct memories that are entirely false but which seem, to the victim, every bit as real as true memories. This is so counter-intuitive that juries are easily swayed by sincere but false testimony from witnesses.

From "The God Delusion" Richard Dawkins pp. 315-16; 2006

I guess he's changed his mind since then given the massive amounts of cranky shit he's spouting now.

Dr. Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservative Vermin
22nd April 10, 10:35 AM
How come I cant start new threads?

Kiko
22nd April 10, 12:08 PM
Try asking that here, (http://www.sociocide.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=74) Max.

I'd fix it, but I'm not one of the REALLY powerful ones...

Craigypooh
22nd April 10, 03:59 PM
Priestly abuse of children is nowadays taken to mean sexual abuse, and I feel obliged, at the outset, to get the whole matter of sexual abuse into proportion and out of the way. Others have noted that we live in a time of hysteria about pedophilia, a mob psychology that calls to mind the Salem witch-hunts of 1692… All three of the boarding schools I attended employed teachers whose affections for small boys overstepped the bounds of propriety. That was indeed reprehensible. Nevertheless, if, fifty years on, they had been hounded by vigilantes or lawyers as no better than child murderers, I should have felt obliged to come to their defense, even as the victim of one of them (an embarrassing but otherwise harmless experience).

The Roman Catholic Church has borne a heavy share of such retrospective opprobrium. For all sorts of reasons I dislike the Roman Catholic Church. But I dislike unfairness even more, and I can’t help wondering whether this one institution has been unfairly demonized over the issue, especially in Ireland and America… We should be aware of the remarkable power of the mind to concoct false memories, especially when abetted by unscrupulous therapists and mercenary lawyers. The psychologist Elizabeth Loftus has shown great courage, in the face of spiteful vested interests, in demonstrating how easy it is for people to concoct memories that are entirely false but which seem, to the victim, every bit as real as true memories. This is so counter-intuitive that juries are easily swayed by sincere but false testimony from witnesses.

From "The God Delusion" Richard Dawkins pp. 315-16; 2006

This is taken out of context it - a couple of paragraphs offering some balance to a chapter chastising the catholic church.

It was also written prior to the recent evidence of papal involvement in cover-ups - everyone is entitled to change their opinion when new evidence comes to light (unless you're religious of course).

nihilist
23rd April 10, 02:12 AM
How come I cant start new threads?

Ask me about eugenics.