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Kiko
10th April 10, 06:29 AM
Polish leader dies in plane crash
Polish President Lech Kaczynski and scores of others have been killed in a plane crash in Russia.
Polish and Russian officials said no-one had survived after the plane apparently hit trees as it approached Smolensk's airport in thick fog.
Poland's army chief, central bank governor, MPs and leading historians were among more than 80 passengers.
They were flying in from Warsaw to mark 70 years since the Katyn massacre of thousands of Poles by Soviet forces.

The BBC's Adam Easton, in Warsaw, says the crash is a catastrophe for the Polish people. He says Prime Minister Donald Tusk was reportedly in tears when he was told.
Mr Tusk, who runs the day-to-day business of government, has called an emergency meeting of ministers.
A government spokesman said that according to the constitution there would be an early presidential election, and the speaker of the lower house of parliament, Bronislaw Komorowski, would become acting president.
Pilot error?
The Russian emergencies ministry told Itar-Tass news agency the plane crashed at 1056 Moscow time (0656 GMT).

SENIOR FIGURES KILLED
National leader: President Lech Kaczynski and wife Maria
Other politicians: Wladyslaw Stasiak chief of the president's chancellery; Aleksander Szczyglo chief of the National Security Office; Slawomir Skrzypek National Bank of Poland chairman; Jerzy Szmajdzinski deputy speaker of the lower house; Andrzej Kremer Foreign Ministry's undersecretary of state; Stanislaw Komorowski deputy minister of national defence; Przemyslaw Gosiewski Law and Justice party deputy chair;
Military chief: Franciszek Gagor chief of the General Staff
Cultural figures: Andrzej Przewoznik head of Poland's Council for the Protection of Struggle and Martyrdom Sites; Tomasz Merta chief historical conservator Source: TVP1, Warsaw


Smolensk regional governor Sergei Antufiev told Russian TV that no-one had survived.
"As it was preparing for landing, the Polish president's aircraft did not make it to the landing strip," he said.
"According to preliminary reports, it got caught up in the tops of trees, fell to the ground and broke up into pieces. There are no survivors in that crash."
Polish Foreign Ministry spokesman Piotr Paszkowski said it could be assumed with "great certainty" that no-one had survived.
"We still cannot fully understand the scope of this tragedy and what it means for us in the future. Nothing like this has ever happened in Poland," Mr Paszkowski said.
It is unclear how many people were on board. Polish officials said the delegation was 88-strong, while local officials said 96 people had been killed.
Russian investigators had earlier said there were 132 people on the plane.
Russian media carried claims that the plane's crew were at fault for the crash.
"The pilot was advised to land in Minsk, but decided to land in Smolensk," said Andrei Yevseyenkov, a Smolensk regional government spokesman .
Controversial figure
The president was flying in a Tupolev 154, a Soviet-designed plane that was more than 20 years old.

Our correspondent says there had been calls for Polish leaders to upgrade their planes. As well as the president and his wife, Maria, a number of senior officials were on the passenger list.
They included the army chief of staff Gen Franciszek Gagor, central bank governor Slawomir Skrzypek and deputy Foreign Minister Andrzej Kremer.
World leaders including Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin, German Chancellor Angela Merkel and UK Prime Minister Gordon Brown offered their condolences to Poland.
Mr Kaczynski, who had fewer powers than the prime minister but had a significant say in foreign policy, was a controversial figure in Polish politics.
He had advocated a right-wing Catholic agenda, opposed rapid free-market reforms and favoured retaining social welfare programmes.

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/europe/8612825.stm
Published: 2010/04/10 11:13:52 GMT
BBC MMX

*****************************
Damn. May they all rest in peace and may their countrymen find strength to cope with this tragedy.

http://th07.deviantart.net/fs51/300W/i/2009/340/8/7/Polish_eagle_by_Seaph_Dark.jpg

EuropIan
10th April 10, 06:33 AM
What happened to Jaroslav?

Steve
10th April 10, 07:03 AM
Wow, serious bummer. RIP.

jvjim
10th April 10, 08:18 AM
Very tragic.

Ajamil
10th April 10, 10:51 AM
Those are some serious positions to refill all at once. My heart goes out to the friends and family, and my support to the people of Poland.

Ka-Bar
10th April 10, 11:04 AM
Why did the Polish airplane crash?

Because it ran out of coal.




Polish Air Lines flight 113 was descending for a landing at an airport they had never been to before. The pilot looked out the windshield and suddenly exclaimed to the copilot, "Holy cow! Look how short the runway is! I`ve never seen one that short!"

The copilot looked out the windshield. "Wow! you`re right! That`s incredible! Are you sure we can make it?"

"Well we better, were almost out of fuel."

So the captain got on the intercom and notified the passengers to put their heads between their knees and prepare for an emergency landing. Then he set the flaps to full down and slowed the plane to just over stall speed. The big jumbo jet came screaming in, on the
ragged edge of control. The pilot`s hands were sweating, the copilot was praying. They touched down and came screeching to a halt JUST before the edge of the runway, the tires smoking.

"WHEW! That was CLOSE!" yelled the captain."That runway was SHORT!"

"Yeah!" said the copilot,"and WIDE too!"








A small two-seater Cessna 152 plane crashed into a cemetery early this afternoon in central Poland. Polish search and rescue workers have recovered 300 bodies so far and expect that number to climb as digging continues into the evening.

WarPhalange
10th April 10, 11:33 AM
Holy shit. This will be a very chaotic time for Poland I am assuming, since there is so much shit to do and little time to do it.

jkdbuck76
10th April 10, 11:36 AM
My heart and thoughts go out to the families and to the Polish people at large.

They are some of the smartest and bravest people on earth.

Ajamil
10th April 10, 11:51 AM
How do they not know who was on the plane? Is it not security checked? It must be weird living in a place where you don't imagine the world wanting to kidnap/kill your leader.

HappyOldGuy
10th April 10, 12:07 PM
How do they not know who was on the plane? Is it not security checked? It must be weird living in a place where you don't imagine the world wanting to kidnap/kill your leader.

Umm. There are rather alot of folks who might like to kill the president of poland, and most of them live in russia and work for the russian government.

Not saying that there is anything to that. But you can assume that if they haven't released the passenger list from the plane, it's not cause they don't keep one.

Ajamil
10th April 10, 12:54 PM
Do you think the numbers difference from the local and state officials is intentional?

HappyOldGuy
10th April 10, 01:05 PM
No, I just assume that none of them are getting their numbers from the polish security services.

EuropIan
10th April 10, 02:18 PM
BUT HE HAS A CLONE!!!!

Zendetta
10th April 10, 02:22 PM
Putin did it.

bob
10th April 10, 05:52 PM
Kiko and Poops for president.

EuropIan
10th April 10, 05:53 PM
Thay have to kill his twin first.

In mortal combat.


In a snake pit, full of lasers.

HappyOldGuy
10th April 10, 11:35 PM
Putin did it.

This keeps jumping into my brain. I have absolutely no reason to believe it.

But I think I do.

Ajamil
11th April 10, 12:42 AM
Did he throw a tiger at the pilot?

WarPhalange
11th April 10, 01:24 AM
This keeps jumping into my brain. I have absolutely no reason to believe it.

But I think I do.

Why would Putin do it?

Steve
11th April 10, 01:30 AM
Because he can fly and shoot lasers from his eyes.

HappyOldGuy
11th April 10, 01:42 AM
Why would Putin do it?
I don't have anything particular in mind. But remember that the poles were in Russia to commemorate a soviet atrocity against Poland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre). And there certainly are issues (http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1832294_1832295_1833678,00.html).

Plus, let's not forget this guy (http://www.president.gov.ua/en/news/7421.html)

mrblackmagic
11th April 10, 10:47 AM
I don't have anything particular in mind. But remember that the poles were in Russia to commemorate a soviet atrocity against Poland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre). And there certainly are issues (http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1832294_1832295_1833678,00.html).

Plus, let's not forget this guy (http://www.president.gov.ua/en/news/7421.html)

Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc. Everyone assumes him becoming President, Prime Minister, Chairman of United Russia, and Chairman of Council Russia back in 2008 that a lot of high profile accidents and coincidences that could potentially destabilize the region are his fault.

...hmm...

Zendetta
11th April 10, 10:57 AM
Let me clarify:

Putin did it...

... with his mind.

Why did he do it?

Because he could.

Cullion
11th April 10, 11:16 AM
I don't think Putin would do this. If this was an assassination, it's an insane act of war against the European Union.

mrblackmagic
11th April 10, 03:46 PM
True. However, he does inspire that kind of sentiment. Then again. When your government is run almost entirely by ex-Soviet spooks, it is very useful to be the scariest guy in the room.



Let me clarify:

Putin did it...

... with his mind.

Why did he do it?

Because he could.

This I believe.

HappyOldGuy
11th April 10, 04:20 PM
I don't think Putin would do this. If this was an assassination, it's an insane act of war against the European Union.

You mean like assasinating your people on your soil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_of_Alexander_Litvinenko).

Honestly, I know it's insane, but I can't shake the feeling.

Cullion
11th April 10, 04:30 PM
I'm aware of the Litvinenko case, but he wasn't a national leader. This would be the equivalent of Putin ordering the FSB to blow up parliament or Buckingham palace or something of that order.

HappyOldGuy
11th April 10, 05:05 PM
I'm aware of the Litvinenko case, but he wasn't a national leader. This would be the equivalent of Putin ordering the FSB to blow up parliament or Buckingham palace or something of that order.

Or maybe giving gordon brown a bad case of dioxin poisoning?

I don't think Putin would see the equivalence tho, because I think he operates on a very fundamental level as if all of the former soviet client states were still his personal fiefdom.

Cullion
11th April 10, 05:09 PM
I would expect EU membership make him stop and pause. We're talking about big slices of money at that point, and members states with nuclear weapons and advanced navies and air forces. Poland's also a NATO member.

Bumping off a NATO member's leader and a slice of it's military leadership would be playing with a big, hot fire.

I'm not sure what he has to gain from this. I know he's brutal, but he always struck me as kind of calculating too.

He'd either have to believe he'd never get caught, or that Russia was currently capable of defeating the US with the total cooperation and military assistance of all Western Europe (France and the UK are hardly on a par with the US, but they do have their own modest nuclear arsenals and reasonably advanced military technology) in an all-out war, or that we'd just sorta let it slide.

None of those options sounds reasonable to me.

Harpy
11th April 10, 05:28 PM
Sad news.

Does something seem wrong that Russia is heading up the investigation? I'm not sure if the media is just not privy to who exactly is investigating the crash but I'd think that Polish officials or some sort of EU team would be called for?

I believe this was just an accident as well.

I'm also very surprised that this many major parliamentary and key figures were on the same flight. Major error on the part of their security detail, you always split up a delegation like that.

HappyOldGuy
11th April 10, 05:39 PM
I would expect EU membership make him stop and pause. We're talking about big slices of money at that point, and members states with nuclear weapons and advanced navies and air forces. Poland's also a NATO member.


What about his invasion of Georgia would make Putin think that that mattered?

Cullion
11th April 10, 05:45 PM
Georgia wasn't in NATO or the EU.

HappyOldGuy
11th April 10, 05:52 PM
Georgia wasn't in NATO or the EU.
Georgia had signed defense agreements with NATO, had been accepted for membership, and was in the process of becoming a member when Russian tanks rolled through it like sailors on a 10 dollar whore.

Cullion
11th April 10, 05:53 PM
It wasn't a NATO member, and other NATO members were not obliged by treaty to defend it.

HappyOldGuy
11th April 10, 06:16 PM
It wasn't a NATO member, and other NATO members were not obliged by treaty to defend it.
Obligation is something for the lawyers to work out. Both Georgia and The Ukraine had every reason and right to expect more support than they got. Georgian troops have served uinder NATO command in all the NATO operations since Kosovo. Including some in Afghanistan today Putin keeps doing gutchecks on NATO and NATO keeps coming up gutless.

As for the EU, how is that working out for Estonia? (http://www.worldsecuritynetwork.org/showArticle3.cfm?article_id=14357)

If your goal is to dissuade me, you should probably not keep making me dig up all these examples.

Cullion
11th April 10, 06:27 PM
The Ukraine isn't in NATO either. NATO membership means something different from 'you aren't in our mutual defence pact, but we like you and maybe one day you will be'.

Comparing behind-the scenes pressure over the location of a statue to claims of assassination of an EU and NATO member's head of state and military leadership is just silly and I think you know it, too.

HappyOldGuy
11th April 10, 06:30 PM
The Ukraine isn't in NATO either. NATO membership means something different from 'you aren't in our mutual defence pact, but we like you and maybe one day you will be'.

Comparing behind-the scenes pressure over the location of a statue to claims of assassination of an EU and NATO member's head of state and military leadership is just silly and I think you know it, too.

Behind the scenes pressure not so much. Assaults on the estonian embassy , an illegal embargo, and massive cyberterrorism, yeah. Those are things that most nations would consider acts of war.

Cullion
11th April 10, 06:33 PM
Cyberterrorism? Not at all. Happens all the time to the US and the UK, often originating in Russia and China. People tend to respond to it with information warfare of their own rather than sending their submarines under the arctic ice.

None of these things you're talking about are really comparable with just killing scores of a country's political and military leadership in one hit. You can't really respond to that with much less than a 'regime change'.

HappyOldGuy
11th April 10, 06:38 PM
I agree it is worse. You might even call it a progression.

Cullion
11th April 10, 06:40 PM
Do you believe that Putin is looking for World War III, or that he's become detached from reality and just thinks nobody will do anything about it if they find out he murdered the Polish leader and all those generals ?

HappyOldGuy
11th April 10, 06:50 PM
Do you believe that Putin is looking for World War III, or that he's become detached from reality and just thinks nobody will do anything about it if they find out he murdered the Polish leader and all those generals ?
I don't think that such a belief is actually that detached from reality. The more you make me look at this, the more I see an ongoing pattern of escalations and appeasements.

I know that the US and UK are the only countries who would even consider doing anything about it and I know that neither are able to do much right now.

I'm starting to scare myself.

AAAhmed46
11th April 10, 06:56 PM
I wonder what one of my MMA coaches thinks of this. the dude is totally hardcore polish.\

http://www.dragonmma.ca/about.html

Ajamil
11th April 10, 09:02 PM
I don't think Russia would risk it unless they had China on their side. Also I've heard there was a lot of mistakes on the pilots side, so unless he was somehow convinced to be a bad pilot, then it was accidental. Apparently they wanted to land at one airport, but the pilot disagreed and went to a different, shorter airport. He then tried several passes, but fog and tree lines kept causing him to veer off and try to approach again. Eventually he pushed it a bit too far and clipped the trees.

I agree that it's weird to have all these major offices in the same plane. Me mah heard this from me, and reminisced that they used to not allow both parents on the same flight because of the worry of planes crashing.

Harpy
20th April 10, 06:58 PM
All the conspiracy theorists can suck it. Looks like the Polish president played a part in getting himself and scores of others killed. Darwin awards anyone?

Polish president had a reputation for pressuring pilots to take unnecessary risks (according to some US security official):

http://blog.newsweek.com/blogs/declassified/archive/2010/04/12/polish-president-had-a-reputation-for-pressuring-his-pilots.aspx?obref=obnetwork

Cullion
20th April 10, 07:08 PM
Yeah, but that didn't happen this time.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/apr/15/polish-plane-crash-lech-kaczynksi

Harpy
20th April 10, 07:12 PM
*note to self, stop quoting blogs*

So mostly pilot error but I think the pilot knew deep down inside that he did not want to disappoint the President.

Harpy
20th April 10, 07:13 PM
By the way, was discussing the plane crash with a Belarusian. He said that Russia wants and needs nothing from the Poles, that it was no real loss except to the families involved and that Poland is going to be eaten up by the EU.

Cullion
20th April 10, 07:17 PM
Poland's already in the EU. There are a lot of young polish people working in bars, on construction sites etc.. in the UK these days.

WarPhalange
20th April 10, 07:18 PM
That's been my impression. Poland doesn't have much political power in the world and I don't see why Russia would care about a small country like that. Yeah, they told them to shove it some years back, but that stuff happens and Russia is giant anyway.

Harpy
20th April 10, 07:19 PM
Poland's already in the EU. There are a lot of young polish people working in bars, on construction sites etc.. in the UK these days.
Poland has been consumed by the EU.

Cullion
20th April 10, 07:22 PM
For most Poles it's probably seen as a benefit because of economic subsidy, opening of export markets and the ease with which young poles can travel to richer parts of Europe looking for work.

If there are any poles concerned about it, they're probably older, more conservative types who might be noticing interference in their legal system, or drawing parallels with the shadier parts of the EU system of government and the old communist system.

Kiko
22nd April 10, 06:14 AM
... suck it.


… going to be eaten up by…


... has been consumed


We're talking about Poland, not a box of your beloved Tim Tams. Have a little respect, wouldja??