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DAYoung
1st April 10, 03:14 PM
http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n5/DAYoung_2006/EasteratSafeway_small.jpgAutumn glory lets us count our blessings
DAMON YOUNG
April 2, 2010

FRIENDS, Australians, countrymen, lend me your chocolate rabbit ears: let's talk about Easter. A great tale, and it doesn't matter that its hero, God, doesn't exist. The story and symbols are powerful.

Jesus Christ is the Lord as flesh; as vulnerability and suffering. Our Father tortures and annihilates Himself for us, His mortal children. In a moment of mortal doubt, Christ cries: ''My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?'' Then the Lord reaffirms His faith, and His sacrifice is willingly accomplished. Christ dies, and returns as transcendent proof of the Almighty's greatness.

It is a profound, beautiful story.

But it is fiction. And it lacks the relevance, sophistication and nuance of many modern novels or poems. Millions in the West now feel this way. For many, Easter is, at best, a sweet confectionary shell over a tart commercial centre. At worst, it's a few days when the shops are closed.

Easter was once a pagan spring festival. A time for growth, renewal, rejuvenation, birth, hence the bunnies and eggs as symbols of new life after a time of bleakness or infertility. It's also the logic of the passion: Christ's rebirth after death and hopelessness.

But it's autumn in Australia, and Druidism never really took off. So what does Easter offer today? Chocolate. To commemorate spring, or Christ's death and rebirth, we eat the same milky cacao we buy all year - in a rabbit or egg shape. Nothing says ''yes'' to sacred life like reconstituted chocolate in new mould.

And a hot cross bun? A fruit bun with a crucifix on the top - like a cupcake with an electric chair on it. They're supposed to commemorate Christ's agony and sacrifice but today the reverence is lost.

Easter lacks profundity - for many, it's either irrelevant, or simply ordinary. So this year I'll be celebrating something tangible; something rooted in our routines and rituals: autumn. In Europe it harbours a melancholy mood as the wind-down to winter, when life becomes cold, hungry, sometimes brutal. But in Australia, at least where I live, it is relief: from searing heat, baking sunlight, and dead or dying plants. I dread summers like Europeans fear winter: it's stifling, exhausting, oppressive. Autumn offers a cool, clement respite worthy of celebration.

Alongside this simple gift is the aesthetic offering: the red, orange, yellow conflagration, the smell of leaves' tannins on turf, and their crunch as a toddler runs, stops and kicks through them. Of course these are introduced trees. But they are here, and part of our local seasonal experience - certainly more so than mass-produced chocolate bunnies.

Autumn is also a wonderful time for gardeners. We often think of spring as the time to plant, but the wetter, cooler months are perfect for digging and sowing. The earth is moist, and the roots have time to quietly begin their subterranean empire.

And after the morning's gardening: food. Autumn gives us new varieties of fresh fruit, like pears and apples. Ginger is harvested, figs are ripe, eggplants are ready. And under those crackling leaves mushrooms, their feet in the door, just ready for grilling on a mild evening. It's an invitation for a stir-fry, really.

Autumn is also a reminder of all that fades, perishes, decays - and the life that's encouraged by this. Whether it's the foliage that feeds mushrooms, or the browning rose petals beneath our windows, I see life's process: activity, change, duration. In this, autumn is more festive than foil-covered sweets, execution buns and reruns of The Greatest Story Ever Told. If God existed, he'd agree with me.

Damon Young is a philosopher and the author of Distraction.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/society-and-culture/autumn-glory-lets-us-count-our-blessings-20100401-rhy0.html

HappyOldGuy
1st April 10, 03:16 PM
^Druid.

DAYoung
1st April 10, 03:19 PM
I am not a druid, you idiot.

Now, if you excuse me, I've some mistletoe to harvest with my sickle.

Oh. you got me.

Robot Jesus
1st April 10, 03:22 PM
http://media.giantbomb.com/uploads/0/30/945676-brutal_legend_gdc_preview_screens_9_super.jpg

/\druid plow

HappyOldGuy
1st April 10, 03:23 PM
Hey, looking for meaning in the cycles of worms eating decayed flesh and pooping new soil isn't any more silly than any other place you might look.

It's not any less silly of course.

partyboy
1st April 10, 03:24 PM
My roommate (super-devout-Christian that he is) has been pestering me for the last 2 weeks to go to easter whatever with him on sunday.

My short answer:
No.

My long answer:
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO


(good write-up, DAY)

DAYoung
1st April 10, 03:26 PM
Hey, looking for meaning in the cycles of worms eating decayed flesh and pooping new soil isn't any more silly than any other place you might look.

It's not any less silly of course.

Grades of silliness: the perfect guide to a sacred metaphysics.

Robot Jesus
1st April 10, 03:27 PM
on a more appropreate note a thanksgiveing ritual is what we do in north america in autum. a big meal with lots of family. turkey is tradition, it goes back to the marine corps. what would be a propreate native autrailian dish that could serve as the main course, i wonder; and that wonder leads to wombat.

partyboy
1st April 10, 03:28 PM
on a more appropreate note a thanksgiveing ritual is what we do in north america in autum. a big meal with lots of family. turkey is tradition, it goes back to the marine corps. what would be a propreate native autrailian dish that could serve as the main course, i wonder; and that wonder leads to wombat.


hugh jackman.


edit: WTF is that on his arm??? a blood worm???

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/29/HughJackmanApr09.jpg/582px-HughJackmanApr09.jpg

DAYoung
1st April 10, 03:28 PM
My roommate (super-devout-Christian that he is) has been pestering me for the last 2 weeks to go to easter whatever with him on sunday.

My short answer:
No.

My long answer:
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO


(good write-up, DAY)

Thanks.

I don't mind devout Christians doing their pagan thing. But expecting anyone else to do Easter is nuts. (And actually doing it is worse.)

Robot Jesus
1st April 10, 03:30 PM
Grades of silliness: the perfect guide to a sacred metaphysics.


title of your next book. done from the view of epistemological anarchism it could be done in a matter that doesn't just dump on religion.

DAYoung
1st April 10, 03:30 PM
on a more appropreate note a thanksgiveing ritual is what we do in north america in autum. a big meal with lots of family. turkey is tradition, it goes back to the marine corps. what would be a propreate native autrailian dish that could serve as the main course, i wonder; and that wonder leads to wombat.

Emu.

Now baking for autumn.

http://compo.iconbar.com/variation/pictures/emu.jpg

DAYoung
1st April 10, 03:32 PM
title of your next book. done from the view of epistemological anarchism it could be done in a matter that doesn't just dump on religion.

Not just dumping on religion...

Actually, I've a healthy respect for the spiritual impulse. But Easter sticks in my craw.

HappyOldGuy
1st April 10, 03:34 PM
Because you have not tasted the one true peanut butter and chocolate egg.

I swear I'm gonna figure out some way to ship you one in a refrigerated container.

DAYoung
1st April 10, 03:46 PM
Because you have not tasted the one true peanut butter and chocolate egg.

I swear I'm gonna figure out some way to ship you one in a refrigerated container.

I tried Reese's Peanut Butter Cups, and you know how that turned out (http://www.sociocide.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1408142&postcount=127).

The humble Gala apple, fresh in autumn, is infinitely better than your peanut butter crap.

HappyOldGuy
1st April 10, 03:53 PM
Yeah, those have to have been some sort of cheap aussie knockoff. Because if you had tasted the true ambrosia, we would have sensed your bliss from here.

DAYoung
1st April 10, 03:58 PM
Yeah, those have to have been some sort of cheap aussie knockoff. Because if you had tasted the true ambrosia, we would have sensed your bliss from here.

As the ingredients here are better, our version probably improved it.

In other words: even when it's good, it's still crap.

Maybe you ought to try a gala apple.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4b/Malus-Gala.jpg/631px-Malus-Gala.jpg

Robot Jesus
1st April 10, 04:04 PM
I want to make pie now, but I know what I'm doing in that respect so it wouldn't be ass interesting.

although a yeast leavend chocolate cake sounds like just the thing.

HappyOldGuy
1st April 10, 04:08 PM
God has spoken!http://img260.yfrog.com/img260/2290/sociocideads.jpg

Or at least google.

DAYoung
1st April 10, 04:11 PM
ass interesting

The best kind of interesting. /Canova

http://g1b2i3.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/the-three-graces.jpg

DAYoung
1st April 10, 04:13 PM
God has spoken!http://img260.yfrog.com/img260/2290/sociocideads.jpg

Or at least google.

OK. That's a little awesome.

But not as awesome as Canova.

Cullion
1st April 10, 05:46 PM
Easter is not about druids. It's about Ēastre, the Saxon fertility goddess who appeared in the form of a hare and laid eggs.

If Autumn marks movement towards the most pleasant season where you live, the sap is rising, and it's a good time to have sex outdoors, I'd venture that she's still a perfectly good mythical figure to name that particular turn of the seasons after.

It would also do you no harm at all to have a period like Lent where you practice the discipline of completely forsaking something pleasurable, something that's possibly not physically healthy. Like refined sugar, tobacco, alcohol or bareback with strangers.

And that's the memo.

mrblackmagic
1st April 10, 06:28 PM
Even as a child, I always hated Easter. It's depressing and pretty creepy.

Ka-Bar
1st April 10, 07:27 PM
If not Easter, when the fuck else am I supposed to spend $70.00 on a Honeybaked ham?

jkdbuck76
1st April 10, 07:33 PM
I tried Reese's Peanut Butter Cups, and you know how that turned out (http://www.sociocide.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1408142&postcount=127).

The humble Gala apple, fresh in autumn, is infinitely better than your peanut butter crap.

A good candy company here in the Midwestern U.S. of frikkin' A called Asher's Candies makes one helluva peanutbutter meltaway. I haven't had one in years (just like I've not had a good idea in years).

Said meltaway is way better than Reese's PB cups which usually have dry, gritty PB in them.

True story: that was the last thing I fed our dog before we had to put her down. She at the whole thing plus the little brown wrapper. And unlike the Lord, Scooby Dee will not be rising from the tomb.

Cullion
1st April 10, 07:37 PM
I tried Reese's Peanut Butter Cups, and you know how that turned out (http://www.sociocide.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1408142&postcount=127).



We must not look at goblin men,
We must not buy their fruits:
Who knows upon what soil they fed
Their hungry thirsty roots?

mrblackmagic
1st April 10, 07:51 PM
If not Easter, when the fuck else am I supposed to spend $70.00 on a Honeybaked ham?

Christmas.

DAYoung
1st April 10, 07:56 PM
I just received a friendly critical email from a chap who disagreed with my characterisation of the story as 'fiction' (citing Tacitus and others) and of Easter as a pagan festival. He attached this:

Was Easter Borrowed from a Pagan Holiday? (From Christian History)

The historical evidence contradicts this popular notion.

Anthony McRoy

Thursday, April 2, 2009


Anyone encountering anti-Christian polemics will quickly come up against the accusation that a major festival practiced by Christians across the globe—namely, Easter—was actually borrowed or rather usurped from a pagan celebration. I often encounter this idea among Muslims who claim that later Christians compromised with paganism to dilute the original faith of Jesus.

The argument largely rests on the supposed pagan associations of the English and German names for the celebration (Easter in English and Ostern in German). It is important to note, however, that in most other European languages, the name for the Christian celebration is derived from the Greek word Pascha, which comes from pesach, the Hebrew word for Passover. Easter is the Christian Passover festival.

Of course, even if Christians did engage in contextualization—expressing their message and worship in the language or forms of the local people—that in no way implies doctrinal compromise. Christians around the world have sought to redeem the local culture for Christ while purging it of practices antithetical to biblical norms. After all, Christians speak of "Good Friday," but they are in no way honouring the worship of the Norse/Germanic queen of the gods Freya by doing so.

But, in fact, in the case of Easter the evidence suggests otherwise: that neither the commemoration of Christ's death and resurrection nor its name are derived from paganism.
A celebration with ancient roots

The usual argument for the pagan origins of Easter is based on a comment made by the Venerable Bede (673-735), an English monk who wrote the first history of Christianity in England, and who is one of our main sources of knowledge about early Anglo-Saxon culture. In De temporum ratione (On the Reckoning of Time, c. 730), Bede wrote this:

In olden times the English people—for it did not seem fitting that I should speak of other nations' observance of the year and yet be silent about my own nation's—calculated their months according to the course of the Moon. Hence, after the manner of the Greeks and the Romans, [the months] take their name from the Moon, for the Moon is called mona and the month monath. The first month, which the Latins call January, is Giuli; February is called Solmonath; March Hrethmonath; April, Eosturmonath … Eosturmonath has a name which is now translated "Paschal month" and which was once called after a goddess of theirs named Eostre, in whose honour feasts were celebrated in that month. Now they designate that Paschal season by her name, calling the joys of the new rite by the time-honoured name of the old observance.

The first question, therefore, is whether the actual Christian celebration of Easter is derived from a pagan festival. This is easily answered. The Nordic/Germanic peoples (including the Anglo-Saxons) were comparative latecomers to Christianity. Pope Gregory I sent a missionary enterprise led by Augustine of Canterbury to the Anglo-Saxons in 596/7. The forcible conversion of the Saxons in Europe began under Charlemagne in 772. Hence, if "Easter" (i.e. the Christian Passover festival) was celebrated prior to those dates, any supposed pagan Anglo-Saxon festival of "Eostre" can have no significance. And there is, in fact, clear evidence that Christians celebrated an Easter/Passover festival by the second century, if not earlier. It follows that the Christian Easter/Passover celebration, which originated in the Mediterranean basin, was not influenced by any Germanic pagan festival.

What's in a name?

The second question is whether the name of the holiday "Easter" comes from the blurring of the Christian celebration with the worship of a purported pagan fertility goddess named "Eostre" in English and Germanic cultures. There are several problems with the passage in Bede. In his book, The Stations of the Sun, Professor Ronald Hutton (a well-known historian of British paganism and occultism) critiques Bede's sketchy knowledge of other pagan festivals, and argues that the same is true for the statement about Eostre: "It falls into a category of interpretations which Bede admitted to be his own, rather than generally agreed or proven fact."

This leads us to the next problem: there is no evidence outside of Bede for the existence of this Anglo-Saxon goddess. There is no equivalent goddess in the Norse Eddas or in ancient Germanic paganism from continental Europe. Hutton suggests, therefore, that "the Anglo-Saxon Estor-monath simply meant 'the month of opening' or 'the month of beginnings,'" and concludes that there is no evidence for a pre-Christian festival in the British Isles in March or April.

There is another objection to the claim that Eosturmonath has anything to do with a pagan goddess. Whereas Anglo-Saxon days were usually named after gods, such as Wednesday ("Woden's day"), the names of their months were either calendrical, such as Giuli, meaning "wheel," referring to the turn of the year; metereological-environmental, such as Solmónath (roughly February), meaning "Mud-Month"; or referred to actions taken in that period, such as Blótmónath (roughly November), meaning "Blood Month," when animals were slaughtered. No other month was dedicated to a deity, with the exception (according to Bede) of Hrethmonath (roughly March), which he claims was named after the goddess Hrethe. But like Eostre, there is no other evidence for Hrethe, nor any equivalent in Germanic/Norse mythology.

Another problem with Bede's explanation concerns the Saxons in continental Europe. Einhard (c. 775-840), the courtier and biographer of Charlemagne, tells us that among Charlemagne's reforms was the renaming of the months. April was renamed Ostarmanoth. Charlemagne spoke a Germanic dialect, as did the Anglo-Saxons in Britain, although their vernacular was distinct. But why would Charlemagne change the old Roman title for the spring month to Ostarmanoth? Charlemagne was the scourge of Germanic paganism. He attacked the pagan Saxons and felled their great pillar Irminsul (after their god Irmin) in 772. He forcibly converted them to Christianity and savagely repressed them when they revolted because of this. It seems very unlikely, therefore, that Charlemagne would name a month after a Germanic goddess.

Spring holiday

So why, then, do English-speaking Christians call their holiday "Easter"?

One theory for the origin of the name is that the Latin phrase in albis ("in white"), which Christians used in reference to Easter week, found its way into Old High German as eostarum, or "dawn." There is some evidence of early Germanic borrowing of Latin despite that fact that the Germanic peoples lived outside the Roman Empire—though the Angles, Saxons, and Jutes were far very removed from it. This theory presumes that the word only became current after the introduction of either Roman influence or the Christian faith, which is uncertain. But if accurate, it would demonstrate that the festival is not named after a pagan goddess.

Alternatively, as Hutton suggests, Eosturmonath simply meant "the month of opening," which is comparable to the meaning of "April" in Latin. The names of both the Saxon and Latin months (which are calendrically similar) were related to spring, the season when the buds open.

So Christians in ancient Anglo-Saxon and Germanic areas called their Passover holiday what they did—doubtless colloquially at first—simply because it occurred around the time of Eosturmonath/Ostarmanoth. A contemporary analogy can be found in the way Americans sometimes refer to the December period as "the holidays" in connection with Christmas and Hanukkah, or the way people sometimes speak about something happening "around Christmas," usually referring to the time at the turn of the year. The Christian title "Easter," then, essentially reflects its general date in the calendar, rather than the Paschal festival having been re-named in honour of a supposed pagan deity.

Of course, the Christian commemoration of the Paschal festival rests not on the title of the celebration but on its content—namely, the remembrance of Christ's death and resurrection. It is Christ's conquest of sin, death, and Satan that gives us the right to wish everyone "Happy Easter!"

Anthony McRoy is a Fellow of the British Society for Middle East Studies and lecturer in Islamic studies at Wales Evangelical School of Theology, U.K.

DAYoung
1st April 10, 07:59 PM
Easter is not about druids. It's about Ēastre, the Saxon fertility goddess who appeared in the form of a hare and laid eggs.

See above article contra Bede.

Also: I'm pretty certain that all pagan religions - including druidism - have very similar spring myths, e.g. rebirth, new life. This is my point: it's all a very understandable response to the changing landscape and season.

Cullion
1st April 10, 08:23 PM
Bede is not the only source for Eastre, Eostre, Ostara, Austri etc...

We also have the research of Grimm (which did not entirely rest on Bede), Simek, Elton and others. As your friend is no doubt aware, Bede was born, and died, decades before the Saxons were forcibly converted to Christianity. Bede was a church father who lived when the names of the Saxon gods were still common knowledge. Why would anybody assume he was lying? And with what contemporary authority is he being refuted?

Even something as basic as our days of the week still reference Saxon gods today. Wodensday, Thorsday, etc..

There's a broad range Indo-European godesses connected with fertility and the dawn whose names stem from the proto-Indo European root au̯es-, which means to shine, they're found as far away as Vedic India, as Ushas, so I don't believe they are 'borrowed from Latin'.

Besides, where's your friend suggesting the Christians got the rabbits and the eggs from?

Nobody is accusing Northern European Christians of actually worshipping a saxon deity here. It's just that, as you say, changes of season, and mid-seasons tend to get celebrated in most religions. Saxons, whether Christian or Odinist, shared the same seasons. As did Romans and Gaels. People don't give up all their old habbits so easily. Easter is a germanic word. So, I believe, is the business with the bunnies and eggs. I don't know of any biblical inspiration for it.

The Saxons were used to playing games with hares/rabbits and eggs at that time of the year. They seem to have been allowed to keep doing it as long as they were doing so to glorify Christ. Just as Mithras' birthday became 'Christmas', and Samhain became 'Halloween'.

Essentially your friend is quoting from a source which reads like a touchy and precious defence of Christanity's 'specialness' (i.e. freedom from the influence of earlier religions), which has to actually accuse a Christian church father who lived amongst pagan Saxons in the 7th century AD of fabrication to do so.

Codswallop.

DAYoung
1st April 10, 08:37 PM
A good candy company here in the Midwestern U.S. of frikkin' A called Asher's Candies makes one helluva peanutbutter meltaway. I haven't had one in years (just like I've not had a good idea in years).

Said meltaway is way better than Reese's PB cups which usually have dry, gritty PB in them.

Noted and filed away, sir.

DAYoung
1st April 10, 08:40 PM
Essentially your friend is quoting from a source which reads like a touchy and precious defence of Christanity's 'specialness' (i.e. freedom from the influence of earlier religions), which has to actually accuse a Christian church father who lived amongst pagan Saxons in the 7th century AD of fabrication to do so.

Codswallop.

This is the heart of it. Easter isn't special. It's just a particularly refined, symbolically-potent version of common pagan spring myths and rituals.

Cullion
1st April 10, 08:41 PM
If it involves rabbits, hares, eggs and the goddes Eostre, it's still not about druids. hmph.

DAYoung
1st April 10, 08:48 PM
If it involves rabbits, hares, eggs and the goddes Eostre, it's still not about druids. hmph.

Are you suggesting I argued this?

Vieux Normand
1st April 10, 08:55 PM
Why don't you southern-hemispherrhoids just switch your calendars around so the months match the seasons? That way, Oz can celebrate the fecundity of its rabbits in springtime.

Cullion
1st April 10, 08:55 PM
The name Easter is more specifically linked to the Saxon pre-Christian mythos than any other paganism. And you made a joke about mistletoe. I played too much dungeons and dragons as a kid to let this slide.

DAYoung
1st April 10, 09:06 PM
The name Easter is more specifically linked to the Saxon pre-Christian mythos than any other paganism. And you made a joke about mistletoe. I played too much dungeons and dragons as a kid to let this slide.

I'm not interested in the name 'Easter', and I've not mentioned the etymology. My point is that Easter is Christian version of a pagan myth and celebration. Druids get a mention because they're funny pagans, not because 'Easter' is druidic.

I read too much Asterix as a kid to let this slide. Now take your Eoster, and shove her where even Dionysis fears to tread.

Ka-Bar
1st April 10, 09:46 PM
Christmas.

Heretic. I eat swan for Christmas dinner.

DAYoung
1st April 10, 09:50 PM
southern-hemispherrhoids

"JERRY Seinfeld's last visit to Australia ended in controversy when he called Melbourne the "anus of the world"."

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/entertainment/confidential/seinfelds-new-melbourne-snub/story-e6fredq3-1111114824677

Ajamil
1st April 10, 10:11 PM
If my cat was the Christ, I could pet him one last time on Sunday. I doubt my cat was the Christ, though.

DAYoung
1st April 10, 10:16 PM
Thanks, Arjuna. Very helpful. Really.

(Come back, Cullion. Please.)

Wait. Did I say that out loud?

Ajamil
1st April 10, 10:29 PM
It's actually quite helpful. I'm expressing my sadness and am mourning. I'm feeling better already.


Or did you mean helpful to you?

Easter in my US experience has become just like every other "holy day" throughout the year. They are sham veneers for sales and flimsy excuses to indulge. Actually, it's rather poetic that in their corruption, the holidays have become worshipful acts to our true almighty: money.

It's interesting to me that in Vedic culture, auspicious days were ones that everyone who could afford to would go out and give in charity. Holidays, birthdays, weddings - all the descriptions are of the person giving clothes and food and cows and whatever they could afford to part with away to celebrate. These days an auspicious event meals people are want to splurge on themselves - going out for a big dinner, buying presents for the household or perhaps a new car cuz promoted. Even Thanksgiving - probably the most selfless holiday in the US - is primarily people gathering with friends and relatives and eating as much as you can.

DAYoung
1st April 10, 10:41 PM
This reminds me of something I was told in an interview recently.

The author (whose profile I was writing) told me about women from the former Yugoslavia, victims of violence, rape, deprivation. And my wife confirmed it, from her experience as a sociologist.

These women were doing much better psychologically and socially than the men, despite their hardships. Why? Because they cared for others: cooking, forming support networks, nursing cuts and bruises. The men were withdrawn, anti-social, insular. Of course the women had psychological (and physical) scars, but they were much healthier overall, because they were rejuvenated, motivated and rewarded by their role as caregivers. The author found similar things in her own family, from Russia - generations of stoic, generous women, bonded in the most horrible circumstances, but puling through.

In short: the urge to help - to give, to donate, to tend to - can be a very powerful healer. That's not why we do it, but I can understand religions endorsing it.

HappyOldGuy
1st April 10, 10:43 PM
Tell this guy about the hollowness of easter.

d9IjbgHRwow

DAYoung
1st April 10, 10:58 PM
"Singtel installs new 3G base stations in Phillipines"

Cullion
2nd April 10, 05:54 AM
I'm not interested in the name 'Easter', and I've not mentioned the etymology.

You just wrote an article about it. Not an equinox, not Imbolc. Surely as a lover of language the name matters to you ?

And then you posted a modern Christian apologetics source as a refutation of the venerable Bede <snicker>. The moment I read it, I saw the clouds draw across the moon, in the form of a bearded face. The moon shining though a slit, as if the face had one good eye. It was not a happy countenance.

There shall be no Valhalla for you. Bifröst you will not ascend.



My point is that Easter is Christian version of a pagan myth and celebration. Druids get a mention because they're funny pagans, not because 'Easter' is druidic.

I read too much Asterix as a kid to let this slide. Now take your Eoster, and shove her where even Dionysis fears to tread.

There's nothing funny about Druids.

http://www.pretanicworld.com/sitebuilder/images/Wicker_Man_9-618x915.jpg

Come summer solstice, I'm going to make a 'druid week' thread. And it will be about real druids. I'm going to take your childhood Asterix and turn it into a horror story, understand ?

Arhetton
2nd April 10, 06:37 AM
a giant wickerman.

That reminds me of this gem:

KOpsbAUEe90

bob
2nd April 10, 07:40 AM
My wife got annoyed with me today because when my son asked 'what is Easter?' I told him a story about zombie Jesus rising up and roaming the Earth looking for brains. Then I chased him droning brains, brains, brains for a while.

HappyOldGuy
2nd April 10, 10:59 AM
Come summer solstice, I'm going to make a 'druid week' thread. And it will be about real druids. I'm going to take your childhood Asterix and turn it into a horror story, understand ?

You better include Britt Eklund pics or I will drop you off on summerisle the night before lughnasa.

Cullion
2nd April 10, 11:19 AM
I'll go better than Britt Ecklund. Don't you worry. One of my elective subjects at our equivalent of 'highschool' was British Archaeology, and we got to watch video recreations of the life of ancient britons made under the advice of university archaeologists. There was much fresh young topless titty covered in woad bodypaint. Oh yeah, British highschool really is that much more fun. I think I can probably find you some stills.

Aphid Jones
2nd April 10, 01:44 PM
There's nothing funny about Druids.

Come summer solstice, I'm going to make a 'druid week' thread. And it will be about real druids.

http://www.sociocide.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51668&

Ajamil
2nd April 10, 03:26 PM
Druid Month for May PLZ!!

DAYoung
2nd April 10, 03:35 PM
You just wrote an article about it. Not an equinox, not Imbolc. Surely as a lover of language the name matters to you ?

And then you posted a modern Christian apologetics source as a refutation of the venerable Bede <snicker>. The moment I read it, I saw the clouds draw across the moon, in the form of a bearded face. The moon shining though a slit, as if the face had one good eye. It was not a happy countenance.

There shall be no Valhalla for you. Bifröst you will not ascend.

I've already been to Walhalla (http://www.visitvictoria.com/displayobject.cfm/objectid.000E85C5-4F85-1A66-88CD80C476A90318/).

(And no reply to my email to the Bede bloke, by the way.)

Aphid Jones
2nd April 10, 04:17 PM
Why are Christians less entitled to celebrate this time of year than other peoples?

DAYoung
2nd April 10, 04:24 PM
Why are Christians less entitled to celebrate this time of year than other peoples?

'Cause celebration is for worldly sinners.

But seriously: no-one's suggested otherwise.

HappyOldGuy
2nd April 10, 04:30 PM
DAY doesn't seem to have any problem with the jesus peoples version. It's the secular candy festival that bothers him.

Because his parents gave him too many sweets as a tot.

DAYoung
2nd April 10, 04:46 PM
DAY doesn't seem to have any problem with the jesus peoples version. It's the secular candy festival that bothers him.

I find the assumption of Christian uniqueness frustrating. But, yes, I'm cool with Christians celebrating their festival.


Because his parents gave him too many sweets as a tot.


They didn't. This is the problem. I'd probably be into Jesus' Crucifix Candy Carnival if it weren't for their cruel austerity.

And carob.

DAYoung
2nd April 10, 04:51 PM
I can't believe no-one's commented on my article's last line.

HappyOldGuy
2nd April 10, 04:53 PM
Damon Young is a philosopher and the author of Distraction.


Y'know, I keep meaning to read that, but something always comes up.

DAYoung
2nd April 10, 04:57 PM
Y'know, I keep meaning to read that, but something always comes up.

Don't worry. You're clearly doing fine without me.

Maybe just buy the US edition for friends and relatives.

http://www.acumenpublishing.co.uk/jackets/l/1844652548.jpg

bob
2nd April 10, 05:11 PM
Celebrating autumn is rank Eurocentricism.

DAYoung
2nd April 10, 05:29 PM
Celebrating autumn is rank Eurocentricism.

As is speaking English. Now shush.

Kiko
2nd April 10, 05:48 PM
We'll just have to find someone else who wants this little sweety, then...

http://img.thesun.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01017/SNA023311-682_1017248a.jpg

bob
2nd April 10, 06:06 PM
As is speaking English. Now shush.

No rly. There is no autumn in most of the country. If relevance is your criteria for ditching Easter, you're going to have to come up with something more universal.

Cullion
2nd April 10, 06:54 PM
DAY doesn't seem to have any problem with the jesus peoples version. It's the secular candy festival that bothers him.

Because his parents gave him too many sweets as a tot.

DAYoung is a man with no myth at all. Myth doesn't anger him, like it does with Reese or Virus, he simply lacks it. In that sense, he's intellectually free, but he finds it hard to imagine what it's like to own a faith, I think.

Aphid Jones
2nd April 10, 07:42 PM
I find the assumption of Christian uniqueness frustrating. But, yes, I'm cool with Christians celebrating their festival.

The notion that a festival at this time of year and many Easter traditions= uniquely Christian is false, but the event celebrated by Christianity at this time of year is the distinctly Christian part.

If it's kosher to talk about Christianity as a "fiction" in AU newspapers, then why do you guys have such Conservative politicians, porn censorship and the like? It seems like you fellows elect Conservatives but... wait... do no conservative AU's have the internet? Is it because despite all the things you guys disapprove of, they wanna keep out the Lebs?

That would explain it.

Cullion
2nd April 10, 07:50 PM
Celebrating autumn is rank Eurocentricism.

Do they have autumn in China?

DAYoung
2nd April 10, 08:33 PM
No rly. There is no autumn in most of the country. If relevance is your criteria for ditching Easter, you're going to have to come up with something more universal.

As much as I admire Plato, my job's not to provide universal objects of reverence for Australians.

And you'll note: I stress at least where I live.

DAYoung
2nd April 10, 08:36 PM
DAYoung is a man with no myth at all. Myth doesn't anger him, like it does with Reese or Virus, he simply lacks it. In that sense, he's intellectually free, but he finds it hard to imagine what it's like to own a faith, I think.

It's true I don't have a myth (that I know of).

But I disagree with the idea that I can't imagine what it is to 'own a faith'. For an atheist, naturalistic philosopher, I think I've a fairly good imaginative grasp of the numinous and its narratives, symbols.

I just think they're fictions.

DAYoung
2nd April 10, 08:37 PM
If it's kosher to talk about Christianity as a "fiction" in AU newspapers, then why do you guys have such Conservative politicians, porn censorship and the like? It seems like you fellows elect Conservatives but... wait... do no conservative AU's have the internet? Is it because despite all the things you guys disapprove of, they wanna keep out the Lebs?

Australians are often characterised as morally conservative. But they're not necessarily religious about it.

bob
2nd April 10, 09:14 PM
As much as I admire Plato, my job's not to provide universal objects of reverence for Australians.

And you'll note: I stress at least where I live.

Fair enough then. But you are looking to replace an object of (previously) near universal relevance.

bob
2nd April 10, 09:15 PM
Do they have autumn in China?

What does that have to do with European-descended culture in Australia?

Vieux Normand
2nd April 10, 09:51 PM
"JERRY Seinfeld's last visit to Australia ended in controversy when he called Melbourne the "anus of the world".

Well then, I retract my remark. There's nein way ich will soil mein guten name by agreeing mit der utterances of anyone named "Seinfeld".

Mind you, another moral exemplar (some tin-eared aging boomer named "Jagger") referred to a town in New Zealand as "the butthole of the universe". Is there something the rest of us should know about that part of the planet?

DAYoung
2nd April 10, 10:22 PM
Well then, I retract my remark. There's nein way ich will soil mein guten name by agreeing mit der utterances of anyone named "Seinfeld".

Mind you, another moral exemplar (some tin-eared aging boomer named "Jagger") referred to a town in New Zealand as "the butthole of the universe". Is there something the rest of us should know about that part of the planet?

It's alimentary, dear Vieux.

DAYoung
2nd April 10, 10:23 PM
Fair enough then. But you are looking to replace an object of (previously) near universal relevance.

I'm not replacing. I'm offering my superior alternative.

Ajamil
3rd April 10, 12:28 AM
Holi is waay better than your alternative. (http://www.religionfacts.com/hinduism/holidays/holi.htm)

There's also a Spring arrival of God (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaura-purnima) without all the killing. (http://www.krishna.com/node/1407)

Here's a nice page highlighting a few different Spring celebrations. (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/03/25/spring-holidays-around-th_n_178955.html) If we're upset by Christianity's exceptionalism, then why have a thread dedicated solely to it?

nihilist
3rd April 10, 12:46 AM
The Druids.
No one knew who they were, or what they were doing...
but let's have a moment of silence for all my dead peeps (http://www.comicbookmovie.com/images/users/uploads/9043/Peep%20art%20not%20for%20kids.jpg).

DAYoung
3rd April 10, 01:54 AM
Holi is waay better than your alternative. (http://www.religionfacts.com/hinduism/holidays/holi.htm)

There's also a Spring arrival of God (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaura-purnima) without all the killing. (http://www.krishna.com/node/1407)

Here's a nice page highlighting a few different Spring celebrations. (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/03/25/spring-holidays-around-th_n_178955.html) If we're upset by Christianity's exceptionalism, then why have a thread dedicated solely to it?


Easter in Melbourne's a time for cooling down after the summer heat. It's a time for slowing down, after the hustle-bustle of the year's start; for taking a break.

In fact, it's the perfect time for thinking about what's behind all this: religion. I don't think my kids need to worship in Christianity, Judaism, or Islam; to invent new gods, or exhume old ones. But I do want them to learn about the faiths that unify and divide us.

Sure, they might seem irrational or unscientific. But the myths, stories and institutions of religion can be profound, clarifying and inspiring.

For example, the story of the crucifixion itself is astonishingly bold. It has its sources in ancient Greek and Jewish religion. But the Christians gave it a stunning simplicity and beauty. The Lord loved his children so much, he made himself flesh and blood, and was humiliated and killed for them. This is God, not as wrathful, invincible Lord, but as caring, humble, generous father. It is a lesson in the nobility of parental sacrifice -- giving of yourself, because you love.

Judaism's Passover story is also stirring. At first, it looks like a simple tale of vengeance: God destroys the Egyptians who enslave the Jews. And it is this, no doubt.

But it's also a tale of thanksgiving. Every year, Jews all over the world fast, eat simple, dry bread, and talk about the Exodus.

In this, they can see what blessings they have: food, shelter, life, liberty. They're reminded of how easily these are lost. In part, Passover is a lesson in gratitude for what's simple, precious and precarious in life.

Obviously this is a potted history. But the point is clear and simple: religion has some valuable, high-minded ideas.

And not only the Judeo-Christian faiths. Islam and Zoroastrianism have their own vital ideas, as do the life philosophies of Buddhism, Taoism and Confucianism.

- Herald-Sun (http://www.heraldsun.com.au/opinion/easter-not-found-in-chocolate-eggs/story-e6frfifo-1225697152087)

Cullion
3rd April 10, 03:02 AM
But I disagree with the idea that I can't imagine what it is to 'own a faith'. For an atheist, naturalistic philosopher, I think I've a fairly good imaginative grasp of the numinous and its narratives, symbols.

Pretend to be a convincing devout Christian for a whole day. Church and everything. I double dare you.

Cullion
3rd April 10, 03:03 AM
What does that have to do with European-descended culture in Australia?

Nothing, and that's the point.

DAYoung
3rd April 10, 03:13 AM
Pretend to be a convincing devout Christian for a whole day. Church and everything. I double dare you.

I take your point seriously, but I've not the time or energy to try. Really - I'd be giving up too much for too little reward.

My point was simply that I have a reverential outlook - it just isn't socialised into a religion.

Cullion
3rd April 10, 03:25 AM
Have you ever had religious faith, perhaps when much younger?

DAYoung
3rd April 10, 03:45 AM
Have you ever had religious faith, perhaps when much younger?

No, not really. Moments of intense reverence, combined with a perception of something sublime. And a sometimes missionary, austere character, particularly when I was younger.

But I've certainly never believed in a god or gods, in any straightforward sense.

HappyOldGuy
3rd April 10, 12:11 PM
I take your point seriously, but I've not the time or energy to try. Really - I'd be giving up too much for too little reward.


You know you wanna (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiritual_Exercises_of_Ignatius_of_Loyola).

nihilist
3rd April 10, 12:29 PM
I must warn you not to listen to him Damon, for He is SATAN.

Vieux Normand
3rd April 10, 03:19 PM
I must warn you not to listen to him Damon, for He is SATAN.

This hungry soul has been saved by seitan on more than one occasion.

nihilist
3rd April 10, 04:21 PM
Saved?
Don't you mean sated?

DAYoung
3rd April 10, 04:27 PM
This hungry soul has been saved by seitan on more than one occasion.

Last year I developed a gluten intolerance.

So no Satan for me.

Vieux Normand
3rd April 10, 06:24 PM
Saved?
Don't you mean sated?

"Sated Souls" must be the name for a nerd-core garage-band somewhere on this lucky planet.

Tyrsmann
3rd April 10, 10:34 PM
I remember reading a reference to a Goddess by the name of Eostre or Ostrara or something of that short. Supposed Easter was originally dedicated to her. I believe it was Simek's Dictionary of Northern Mythology. But don't quote me on that. It's been a while since I've picked it up.

Ajamil
4th April 10, 12:36 AM
...You didn't read the first post did you? Lazy.

Tyrsmann
4th April 10, 01:51 AM
...You didn't read the first post did you? Lazy.

Actually yes I did.

I see he mentioned it being Pagan in origin. I however mentioned a possible deity that it was dedicated to. After rereading twice after having seen your post. I didn't see any reference to what deity the original Pagan festival was dedicated too.

DAYoung
4th April 10, 01:57 AM
Actually yes I did.

I see he mentioned it being Pagan in origin. I however mentioned a possible deity that it was dedicated to. After rereading twice after having seen your post. I didn't see any reference to what deity the original Pagan festival was dedicated too.

'Pagan' is a catch-all term for pre-Christian or non-Christian religions/spiritualities. It literally means 'rustic'.

There is no one pagan god or goddess of spring. But they often share objects of reverence, or seasonal principles (e.g. fertility, rebirth, sexyzeit).

nihilist
4th April 10, 02:12 AM
I'm inviting some neighbor kids over for a wiccan Easter.

The activities will be:

Easter twig hunt.

Pin the horned god on the triple goddess.

Pentacle toss.

And of course the ever popular "lay on the ground and become one with the dirt" game.

Tyrsmann
4th April 10, 02:32 AM
I'm inviting some neighbor kids over for a wiccan Easter.

The activities will be:

Easter twig hunt.

Pin the horned god on the triple goddess.

Pentacle toss.

And of course the ever popular "lay on the ground and become one with the dirt" game.

Ask their Mom if she wants to perform the Great Rite with you.

nihilist
4th April 10, 02:40 AM
It's always magic when I do it.

DAYoung
4th April 10, 02:51 AM
Easter twig hunt.

With the main character, Elegant Faggot?

nihilist
4th April 10, 03:06 AM
FZiplrd-ooE

Ajamil
4th April 10, 03:17 AM
That's in Autumn.
oEWyyf0k4dA

Cullion
4th April 10, 06:55 AM
Actually yes I did.

I see he mentioned it being Pagan in origin. I however mentioned a possible deity that it was dedicated to. After rereading twice after having seen your post. I didn't see any reference to what deity the original Pagan festival was dedicated too.

You must have missed my posts on Eastre. I also mentioned Simek.

Tyrsmann
4th April 10, 04:55 PM
You must have missed my posts on Eastre. I also mentioned Simek.

I'm sure I did. I only read the article that DAYoung wrote.

nihilist
4th April 10, 05:00 PM
Easter is a perfect time to feel secure in the knowledge that God has given you the free will to choose Jesus as your Savior or fry in Hell for all eternity.

Cullion
4th April 10, 05:02 PM
Eastre is a perfect time to have sex outside and welcome the coming summer then cook a big meal for your family after pretending you've just been out for a walk.

nihilist
4th April 10, 05:09 PM
I said free will not free willy.

Cullion
4th April 10, 05:12 PM
Your view of Christianity is almost Calvinist. Grim pre-determination and punishment. Lots of Christians (especially those who've never moved in that weird 'Jerry Falwell' orbit of yelling and punishment you get so much of in the US) don't take it that way.

I know those myths about how the world physically works are false, and much of the morality is basically primitive tribalism, but there's also some beautiful and uplifting stuff in the Bible. It can be appreciated as a form of mythic poetry whilst leaving the rest behind.

nihilist
4th April 10, 05:27 PM
Your view of Christianity is almost Calvinist. Grim pre-determination and punishment. Lots of Christians (especially those who've never moved in that weird 'Jerry Falwell' orbit of yelling and punishment you get so much of in the US) don't take it that way.

I know those myths about how the world physically works are false, and much of the morality is basically primitive tribalism, but there's also some beautiful and uplifting stuff in the Bible. It can be appreciated as a form of mythic poetry whilst leaving the rest behind.

Yes, yes I know.