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Ajamil
24th March 10, 01:36 PM
I went and pissed off a shoe salesman the other day by having my foot sized, and testing some shoes, then walking out with nothing. It was fun, but there's no way I can shell out the prices he wanted for shoes. I wasn't planning on it anyway (yay internet!), but I did feel kinda bad.

Anyway, I wanted to get some ideas/info from others that run/jog. So far all I have is the knowledge that I mildly pronate, have a high arch, and am a lot more comfortable in shoes with a mildly curved last. The shoe I felt best in at the store was I think called a Brooks Cascadia (http://www.brooksrunning.com/product/1100751D/Cascadia%205). Does anyone have comparable shoes from other brands? Perhaps ones that aren't so gaudy?

Spade: The Real Snake
24th March 10, 02:26 PM
I expect MJS to appear soon with suggestions of vastly overpriced and uncomfortable footwear.

For casual shoes, I pretty much only wear Pony.
(http://www.pony.com/#/COLLECTION)
All of my soccer boots and running shoes are Adidas and have a pair of Microbounce which I use for my running.

Feryk
24th March 10, 02:38 PM
I like the New Balance line for the way I run (badly, with pronation all over the place). They are very comfortable, and they last me a long time.

Phrost
24th March 10, 02:42 PM
Look into forefoot running.

Buy a pair of Nike Frees.

Spade: The Real Snake
24th March 10, 02:48 PM
^^^
huh.

how are those on arches and ankle/knee/hip joints?

Phrost
24th March 10, 03:15 PM
Spectacular. My knees were shot from running 5 days a week in the Army. Forefoot running in minimalist shoes has completely eliminated my knee pain.

The thing is, it takes a while to get used to... your calves will scream like murder because they're not used to it. But after that, it's much more efficient.

iIT7t2jtdP0

The Nike Frees are as good if you don't want to make the full jump to barefoot running. But it's the super cushiony soles that fuck you up long term. I put a pair of Nike Shox on and went for a run, and had to ice my damn knees.

XrOgDCZ4GUo

Spade: The Real Snake
24th March 10, 03:28 PM
Spectacular. My knees were shot from running 5 days a week in the Army. Forefoot running in minimalist shoes has completely eliminated my knee pain.

The thing is, it takes a while to get used to... your calves will scream like murder because they're not used to it. But after that, it's much more efficient.
I'm actually kind of used to forefoot running from playing soccer for quick lateral movement, so much so I have shin splints from doing that in soccer boots.

But from that I have shitty ankles and knees and got a left hip injury.


iIT7t2jtdP0

The Nike Frees are as good if you don't want to make the full jump to barefoot running. But it's the super cushiony soles that fuck you up long term. I put a pair of Nike Shox on and went for a run, and had to ice my damn knees.

XrOgDCZ4GUo
They look pretty damned sweet and, well, being in Arizona, I can't run barefoot.
Too many critters, cactus and 120 degree temperature blacktop.

I might have to check those out, thanks.

Ajamil
24th March 10, 03:31 PM
I saw the "barefoot" running shoes - it sounds like a very nice idea. I like being barefoot anyway, and I can really tell the difference between hitting heel first or ball first with my bony frame. How are they at removing the discomfort of stepping on gravel, or how do they do in bad conditions (rain and mud and so forth)? Is it something you would recommend to someone just getting into running?

Edit: Oh that vid has actual barefoot runners. I thought you meant these:
http://barefootrunningshoes.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/vibram-kso-barefoot-running-shoes.jpg

I completely disagree about the "no pain" thing in barefoot running. It not hard vs. soft surface, it's when you're on pavement and you go over a scattering of gravel. A few weeks/days and your calluses will harden, but I'd rather have some sort of protection. What about glass? Needles? Lava?

Phrost
24th March 10, 03:36 PM
The Nike Frees are great; you won't feel gravel:

http://a2.zassets.com/images/752/7525594/1396-876546-d.jpg

Or for an even more minimalist shoe, buy some of those goofy-looking water shoes:

http://www.shoes.com/ProductImages/shoes_iaec1143122.jpg

The Frees though, have substantially more cushion, even though somehow they weigh almost nothing.

Spade: The Real Snake
24th March 10, 03:37 PM
He referenced these:
http://nikerunning.nike.com/nikeos/p/nikeplus/en_US/products/free5?blogSource=en_US

which look pretty damned sweet when used in conjunction with his forefoot running vidz

Phrost
24th March 10, 03:49 PM
Yeah, the Free 5.0s are what I have. I actually bought them at an outlet store, just because they were dirt cheap and cool looking. They weigh virtually nothing.

Heck, it never even occurred to me to use them for running until I had to get back into it for the Army. The super-cushioned Shox I had were fucking me up.

With the Frees, I can go for distances I haven't done since I was in my 20s. Sounds like I'm being paid by Nike, but these shoes are just fanfuckingtastick.

Phrost
24th March 10, 03:51 PM
I completely disagree about the "no pain" thing in barefoot running. It not hard vs. soft surface, it's when you're on pavement and you go over a scattering of gravel. A few weeks/days and your calluses will harden, but I'd rather have some sort of protection. What about glass? Needles? Lava?

Eyeballs.

Snarky response, given how I don't run barefoot. But the point is, you run differently, correctly barefoot compared to overcushioned shoes. You simply can't run heel-toe without pain when you do barefoot.

Ajamil
24th March 10, 04:06 PM
The Nike Free seems to be in the $110 range, with the Vibrams going for around
$75-90, and these (http://www.zappos.com/new-balance-mr800-white-orange-grey) - from New Balance - are on sale but seem to be going for around the same as the Free. Here's a comparison of the two. (http://www.nbwebexpress.com/?s1=google&s2=NB+Core+Phrase&s3=New+Balance+p&gclid=CPOC552k0qACFRednAodkhgWzw)

I wasn't talking about running heel-toe barefoot. I meant the stepping on things as you walk/run. I naturally go to landing on the ball of my foot without shoes because it's too much of a shock on my feet to hit the heel. But even with constant barefoot walking, bits of gravel on an asphalt surface would mess up my gait. Perhaps the paths of central park are better swept.

Spade: The Real Snake
24th March 10, 04:23 PM
Running barefoot in the hobo-piss encrusted sidewalks of Central Park just isn't appealing to me.

WarPhalange
24th March 10, 04:34 PM
Spectacular. My knees were shot from running 5 days a week in the Army. Forefoot running in minimalist shoes has completely eliminated my knee pain.

Yeah, turns out running shoes were the worst invention of the 20th century.

WarPhalange
24th March 10, 04:38 PM
Nevermind, read the quote wrong. :(

Phrost
24th March 10, 04:50 PM
The Nike Free seems to be in the $110 range, with the Vibrams going for around
$75-90, and these (http://www.zappos.com/new-balance-mr800-white-orange-grey) - from New Balance - are on sale but seem to be going for around the same as the Free. Here's a comparison of the two. (http://www.nbwebexpress.com/?s1=google&s2=NB+Core+Phrase&s3=New+Balance+p&gclid=CPOC552k0qACFRednAodkhgWzw)


Frees go for about $85.

http://www.google.com/products?sourceid=chrome&q=nike+free+5.0&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=s4iqS8_DL5fMMcLblN8B&sa=X&oi=product_result_group&ct=title&resnum=1&ved=0CCwQrQQwAA

I have the NB 800s. They're kind of clunky and I regret not spending an extra $20 for another pair of Frees. Edit: I got mine for $65 off NB's site. Weird.

I'm looking at getting some dirt cheap aqua socks/water shoes to run in and see how that works. Also, and don't laugh, but some people are even trying out running in tabi.

Yes, ninja shoes.

Cullion
24th March 10, 05:17 PM
Spectacular. My knees were shot from running 5 days a week in the Army. Forefoot running in minimalist shoes has completely eliminated my knee pain.

Warning: Anecdotes about the effects of running on your feet.

I read something recently about how some of these amazing African long distance runners just wear a kind of totally unpadded sandal made out of a piece of tyre rubber to protect from cuts and dogshit when they have to train on roads. Sorry, I can't recall a URL. I'm not claiming it was a peer-reviewed study btw.

My brother in law got back-trooped a couple of times during his training as a Royal Marine because his feet kept.. disintegrating. He was told it was because he wore trainers instead of old-fashioned shoes too much during his teens. I don't have contact details for the medical officer to check his source for that. <shrugs> He made it through in the end.

Adouglasmhor
24th March 10, 05:22 PM
I have 2 pairs of the Nike Tabi style trainers (but I am a boojer). The cheaper one is better for running in IMO.

Spade: The Real Snake
24th March 10, 05:24 PM
those Nike Air Rifts are just fucking weird.

Cullion
24th March 10, 05:24 PM
Phrost, out of curiosity, what kind of distance did you have to cover for your morning PT run in the Army after you got out of training ?

Phrost
24th March 10, 06:25 PM
3-5 miles a day. Sometimes more.

Phrost
24th March 10, 06:36 PM
Warning: Anecdotes about the effects of running on your feet.

I read something recently about how some of these amazing African long distance runners just wear a kind of totally unpadded sandal made out of a piece of tyre rubber to protect from cuts and dogshit when they have to train on roads. Sorry, I can't recall a URL. I'm not claiming it was a peer-reviewed study btw.

Like these?

dnizzgzyzu8

They're one of the new "fads" associated with the whole barefoot running thing.

Neildo
24th March 10, 08:25 PM
I briefly owned a pair of those vibrams. they were short-seamed on one side so i returned them after a few days and they didn't have replacements in my size and i never ended up getting another pair. they were awesome for those couple of days though.

tabi are cheaper but look ridiculous.

littleoldme
25th March 10, 05:38 AM
I'm a moderate overpronator and wear stability trainers pretty much all the time.

A couple of years back I spent 60 or so on some special flat shoes that were meant to be good for everyone's feet as they allegedly reproduced the experience of being barefoot. I wore them a few times but they they didn't work for me.

I'd love a pair of those fivefingers if they work for overpronators. I'm also hypermobile, including very mobile feet and ankles and I'm cautious about spending on a pair if they end up being no good for my feet.

Any hypermobile overpronators tried them and liked them?

MEGA JESUS-SAMA
25th March 10, 06:20 AM
A couple of years back I spent 60 or so on some special flat shoes that were meant to be good for everyone's feet as they allegedly reproduced the experience of being barefoot. I wore them a few times but they they didn't work for me.

the flat insole thing really only works if they're made out of leather, cause the insole will take the shape of your foot after a week or two.

I don't have anything to add about running shoes. DGAF.


I expect MJS to appear soon with suggestions of vastly overpriced and uncomfortable footwear

the past 100 years of insole evolution have basically been chasing after what leather insoles and classic shoe construction already do anyway. But those methods are more expensive so they couldn't sell you a $30 pair of feet coffins made in China by children younger than your whiskey.

Spade: The Real Snake
25th March 10, 10:38 AM
made in China by children younger than your whiskey.
I don't drink

MEGA JESUS-SAMA
25th March 10, 10:52 AM
You expect me to believe that after your endorsement for Pony shoes?

Spade: The Real Snake
25th March 10, 11:02 AM
Dude.
Pony is old school kickin' with Chocolate Thunder and Leon Spinks

MEGA JESUS-SAMA
25th March 10, 11:08 AM
More like derivative bullshit.

"Hey, what did the designers and skate companies that people give a shit about do two seasons ago? Velcro and perforated leather? Someone get on that shit now!!"

Spade: The Real Snake
25th March 10, 11:19 AM
More like derivative bullshit.

"Hey, what did the designers and skate companies that people give a shit about do two seasons ago? Velcro and perforated leather? Someone get on that shit now!!"
That's the NEFF style...which were designed by...well, NEFF.

Now, the City Wings is a different story, they are essentially the same style as back in the '80s around the same time as Nike was making the Dunks.

MEGA JESUS-SAMA
25th March 10, 11:29 AM
All I see are jive-ass colorways with ostentatious branding and no stylistic direction.

p.s. nike hasn't made a fresh sneaker since the 70s

bob
3rd April 10, 09:47 PM
Inspired by this thread I looked into those Vibrams. After reading a bit of the research I bought a pair. For the past couple of days I've used them for a trail run/climb and they felt fantastic. You do feel the rocks on the path a bit and I've got a blister on the back from rubbing but once I get used to them I think I'm gonna love em. There's supposedly a six week breaking in period.

WarPhalange
4th April 10, 12:51 AM
I might do a barefoot run tomorrow morning to see how it goes. I tried running a week or so back (to class cuz I was late) and I took maybe 20 strides before deciding that "fuck it".

Though I ride my bike to school and back and even though there are hills, that doesn't give me any problems, which is weird.

Cullion
4th April 10, 06:57 AM
Arjuna, have you started running yet ?

Ajamil
4th April 10, 01:21 PM
No, but I have started working 16 hour days the entirety of which I'm moving around on my feet. Thanks for keeping me on task.

Cullion
4th April 10, 04:57 PM
That's an extremely long time to spend each day focussed on making money. Are you saving up for something specific ?

Ajamil
4th April 10, 06:42 PM
Transitioning mostly. My old job will be 2 years soon, and with that comes a week's pay instead of vacation time. I'd like to get that before giving them my two weeks notice, and dropping it for college classes again.

Ajamil
15th April 10, 03:44 PM
Got my Five Fingers today. They feel very natural, but are a little too big. I'm worried if I get the smaller size they'll be too tight. Does anyone know how many cm between European shoe sizes? These are size 46 and I'd say have maybe 1-2 cm to lose; 2-4 if I wanted them snug.

Cullion
15th April 10, 03:52 PM
Have you been running yet?

bob
15th April 10, 03:57 PM
Got my Five Fingers today. They feel very natural, but are a little too big. I'm worried if I get the smaller size they'll be too tight. Does anyone know how many cm between European shoe sizes? These are size 46 and I'd say have maybe 1-2 cm to lose; 2-4 if I wanted them snug.

Didn't you read the size chart? The sizing is completely different and you have to basically measure your foot. I reccomend sizing them in a store first before you buying them online. Too tight is not painful. Whatever the case you're going to have a breaking in period. I got a blister on my achilles but now they feel fantastic, though I'm still only running a mile or two at a time to get my calves used to it.

Cullion
15th April 10, 03:59 PM
Thread's three weeks old. Time for a run now.

Harpy
15th April 10, 05:47 PM
Running barefoot is mostly a bad idea. I tend to replace my runners every 4 months because of the wear.

Not worried about brands ever. My requirements are lightweight, black and shock absorbent.

Arjuna, run around the block.

MEGA JESUS-SAMA
15th April 10, 06:16 PM
Black shoes won't slim your fat ass.

Cullion
15th April 10, 06:17 PM
If you don't go for a run and tell us about it within a week I'm going to sacrifice my modhood by abusing my power to edit threads and change this one's title to 'Straight Eye for the Queer Guy: Arjuna goes shoe-shopping.. for weeks'. You pathetic weed-huffing procrastinator.

Harpy
15th April 10, 06:25 PM
Has there been a thread to discuss this 'modhood' of your's Cullion? I think it blows and reeks of 'Old Boys Club'.

Cullion
15th April 10, 06:26 PM
Yes, yes it does. Now keep quiet whilst men are talking.

HappyOldGuy
15th April 10, 06:32 PM
Has there been a thread to discuss this 'modhood' of your's Cullion? I think it blows and reeks of 'Old Boys Club'.

I'm older than he is and I still don't have mine.

:bssign:

Spade: The Real Snake
15th April 10, 06:38 PM
I AM STEEV YET LACK A STAFF TAG.

Harpy
15th April 10, 06:39 PM
I had a CTC MOD tag but it was changed to CTC BOD and then I changed it to CTC DOM. That will have to do.

Kein Haar
15th April 10, 06:53 PM
I ran in bare feet on a treadmill yesterday. Starting feeling a couple blisters forming at about a mile, so I stopped.

Other than that, I do like the running mechanics it forces you into. There's a narrow window of form which doesn't incur discomfort...which is undoubtedly PROPER running mechanics.

Not something I thought about with well-cushioned shoes. Shoes do give you a sinister handicap. My knees had previously paid for it.

bob
15th April 10, 06:54 PM
How is calling Arjuna a fag a threat?

bob
15th April 10, 06:55 PM
I ran in bare feet on a treadmill yesterday. Starting feeling a couple blisters forming at about a mile, so I stopped.

Other than that, I do like the running mechanics it forces you into. There's a narrow window of running mechanics which don't incur discomfort...which is undoubtedly PROPER running mechanics.

Not something I thought about at all with well-cushioned shoes. My knees had previously paid for it.

one of us, one of us...

Harpy
15th April 10, 06:56 PM
Kein, you're stupid for running barefoot on a treadmill. Enjoy the blisters and the foot burn.

Kein Haar
15th April 10, 06:58 PM
Yeah...I think I just mentioned that myself.

It wasn't bad, though. And I plan to continue as my feet get accustomed to it.

Minor and temporary skin irritation > Joint damage

Ajamil
15th April 10, 09:59 PM
*Sigh* YES I've been running. I will be going again day after tomorrow, since tomorrow I work another 16 hours on my feet. No store within 30 miles of me had these things, so I couldn't really go try them on, which is why I called them and made sure I could do size exchanges.

My measurements are also off (stupid euros and your more intuitive system). I'd say with my heel shoved against the back I have little more than a thumb's width or an inch between where my toe is and where the sole curls up to protect the front of the toe. I think I'll risk the wait and have them send me the next smaller size.

bob
15th April 10, 11:46 PM
You should expect a little bagginess in the heel. It feels wierd at first, like it shouldn't fit but the most important thing is that the toes and forefoot are snug.

This a fan site (yes, a fan site) with plenty of good info

http://birthdayshoes.com/

MEGA JESUS-SAMA
16th April 10, 02:46 AM
nice toe socks faggot

Neildo
16th April 10, 03:02 AM
You pathetic weed-huffing procrastinator.

OMG burn!

Ajamil
16th April 10, 04:38 AM
Cullion's been working on my tan. Thank you, Cullion.

bob
9th June 10, 10:02 PM
I did a 10km race in my Vibrams on the weekend. Felt good. I think I'll do a 1/2 marathon next.

Ajamil
10th June 10, 02:43 AM
Friend offered to let me join his running duo, but cautioned me they ran early in the morning. Then he found out I'm at work by the time they start running.

WarPhalange
10th June 10, 03:09 AM
I've been running barefoot for maybe 3 weeks now, though have only been able to do maybe half a dozen runs due to my schedule.

First things first: do it correctly. This is what it should look like:

http://runningbarefoot.org/RunningBarefeet.gif

Running on your "toes" without letting your heal touch the ground will cause you pain in the joints where your foot ends and your toes begin. This site has good stuff:

http://therunningbarefoot.com/

First thing I noticed while doing a barefoot run with that technique is that I could run further without getting tired. Before that, I would do half a mile before calling it quits. I could easily go for a mile the first time I ran barefoot and only stopped because my calves were burning and the soles of my feet hurt. The calves are what will get you at first. I'm up to running two miles now, but it's still my calves/achilles tendon that give out before I am out of energy. Calves burn and achilles just isn't stretched enough I think.

I definitely run slower with this technique, but I'm in no hurry so I don't care. :P The key is to have a short, fast stride vs. the long stride that is all the rage with regular jogging/running. Also, you'll find that as your calves start to give out, you'll be slamming your heel on the ground instead of gently placing it on the ground. Make sure to correct that ASAP when you notice it.

Besides that, so far so good. No shin splints or anything like that yet, though I don't expect there to be anything like that as long as I follow proper technique.

EDIT: I should note that there is nothing saying you can't follow this technique while wearing a good pair of shoes. You'll want something without a raised heel, though, or else it's hard to keep it off the ground as long as you'd need for the technique to work.

Ajamil
10th June 10, 03:26 AM
I find I've become very aware of which part of my foot pad hits the ground first. I think I have a tendency to lean left, meaning the smaller toes (outside of the foot pad) on my left foot, and big toe (inside of the foot pad) on my right. I'm not sure if I should be trying to correct this or not, but I try to make it an even 50/50 so they both land at the same time.

bob
10th June 10, 03:29 AM
Calves burn and achilles just isn't stretched enough I think.

It's nothing to do with flexibility in most cases. Think of the achilles as being like a big spring for storing elastic energy. If they're too flexible or 'compliant' they'll just flop and not rebound properly. When they're working properly they mean we can just bounce along with this recoil-rebound mechanic for hour after hour without actually having to use much muscle power. That's one of the reasons people are able to run for days straight. As they get more efficient at storing that energy and releasing it and structural changes happen in the collagen, you'll get less pain and far more efficiency.

Bottom line - sore calves are good (provided you don't really overload them). Means you're not getting sore joints.

WarPhalange
10th June 10, 03:58 AM
Right. I wasn't worried about my calves, but thanks for reassuring me about my achilles tendons. I didn't know tendons could get stronger like that. Thought it was just muscle.

bob
26th August 10, 03:46 AM
Just over two weeks to half marathon. Bleh. Did the distance for the first time the other day and it hurt I've gotta say, but not like I couldn't walk for days afterwards.

Sadly I don't think I'll be able to make it in the Vibrams. Haven't been able to get above 15km in them. Next time.

Kein Haar
26th August 10, 03:23 PM
Been running regularly (regularly for me anyway) in my wrestling shoes.

Perfect. Zero pain anywhere. I was debilitated with knee issues when I was forced to run and didn't know any better (and simply wore shoes and had no technique).

I'm not doing half-marathons, more like 2 miles, but the distances are still somewhat comparable to when I was experiencing pain and injury.

bob
11th September 10, 11:24 PM
Just did the 1/2 this morning.

ow.

Fuck running, glad I can do something else for a while now.

nihilist
11th September 10, 11:28 PM
http://runningbarefoot.org/RunningBarefeet.gif



I definitely run slower with this technique.

That's because you're supposed to put one foot in front of the other.

SoulMechanic
12th September 10, 12:32 AM
Asics give you the most bang for your buck.

Harpy
12th September 10, 02:23 AM
Just did the 1/2 this morning.

ow.
Fuck running, glad I can do something else for a while now.
Congratulations :)

I hope that's the last one for you, the payoff is low on distance runs for the training one puts in...especially as we age.

bob
12th September 10, 02:45 AM
Well, the training was kind of half arsed if truth be told but I wasn't doing it for any fitness gains. I was doing it out of solidarity for the wife, as a mental challenge, as a fundraiser and just to have done it. I'd consider doing one full marathon, mainly because I find the story behind the original marathon such a romantic one.

Cullion
12th September 10, 12:27 PM
I respect you for that. I'd never run that far unless somebody was chasing me with angry dogs and a gun.

WarPhalange
12th September 10, 01:41 PM
I'd consider doing one full marathon, mainly because I find the story behind the original marathon such a romantic one.

Fag.

bob
13th September 10, 03:03 AM
I respect you for that. I'd never run that far unless somebody was chasing me with angry dogs and a gun.

Just substitute 'angry dogs and gun' for 'fear of humiliation in front of females' and you have ample motivation.


fag

Is it so gay to think of a fit young naked man running for miles in the hot sun?

Harpy
13th September 10, 04:37 AM
Please tell me you ran in a womens' only race in disguise.

How did you and your wife pull up after the race? I suffer from plantar fascitis in my right heel so nothing more than 15km, even then, effiiency trumps
duration for me these days.

bob
13th September 10, 04:53 AM
I feel surprisingly good. My dodgy knee's a bit stiff but I could probably run again tomorrow if I had to. Mrs b. beat me home but is feeling worse, which just goes to show that trying too hard is a suspect strategy at best.

billy sol hurok
13th September 10, 08:46 AM
Just substitute 'angry dogs and gun' for 'fear of humiliation in front of females' and you have ample motivation.

That's MJS's shtick and you know it. Getcher own kink.

On-topic: Any of you use knee bands, and if so to what effect?

bob
13th September 10, 04:03 PM
What kind of knee band? What's wrong with your knee?

Shotgun Christening
14th September 10, 04:35 AM
That's MJS's shtick and you know it. Getcher own kink.

On-topic: Any of you use knee bands, and if so to what effect?


I did and it seemed to help. A really good pair of running shoes that are right for the way your feet land make it go away though.
I went to a real running store and had them look at my feet and fit me with a pair of ASICS Kayano15 Gels. I havent had any trouble with my runners knee since.

(I assume you are talking about the strap that goes under your knee to help with runners knne)

Shotgun Christening
14th September 10, 04:40 AM
One time MOM34 made a comment about how she could run farther than I could. I took her up on it. After the first mile and a half while she was huffing and puffing I pulled out a Marlboro Light and my zippo. I smoked for the last half mile before she gave out.

Ajamil
15th September 10, 08:35 PM
One time MOM34 made a comment about how she could run farther than I could. I took her up on it. After the first mile and a half while she was huffing and puffing I pulled out a Marlboro Light and my zippo. I smoked for the last half mile before she gave out.You won the battle, she's winning the war.

Shotgun Christening
16th September 10, 04:24 AM
You won the battle, she's winning the war.


Im fighting a Guerilla war. I know I cant win but Im doing my best to make her life miserable.