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Cullion
18th March 10, 05:18 PM
This man is an evil philosopher and artist.

JwwxKL4Cylw

He is also a BNP* politician. Look at his eyes.

http://www.jonathanbowden.co.uk/images/jb_index.jpg

Bring me his head. Metaphorically speaking.

He's a bit funny looking, but he's intelligent enough to be dangerous.

* For those who don't follow British politics, the BNP are a racial nationalist party whose leadership get invited to speak at Klan rallies.

billy sol hurok
18th March 10, 05:47 PM
Being me his head. Metaphorically speaking.


If you're going to make a typo, it might as well be ontologically prior, nicht wahr?

Cullion
18th March 10, 05:49 PM
damnit, this is serious.

Spade: The Real Snake
18th March 10, 06:16 PM
If you're going to make a typo, it might as well be ontologically prior, nicht wahr?

Cullion is, as has been alluded, the power behind the throne.

Cullion
18th March 10, 06:40 PM
This is srs

g-F572M9l1E

Commodore Pipes
18th March 10, 09:13 PM
Jesus, Phil Hartman just isn't funny anymore.

nihilist
18th March 10, 11:18 PM
And so this man is your only hope for the eradication of STDs?

KO'd N DOA
19th March 10, 09:24 AM
Not a 'returning a borrowed movie thread?' Okay - I'll watch.

Wow. I'm not going to win any arguments against him any time soon.
Come to think of it, he might find quite a following here in Quebec, we love mixing art and cultural policy.

I found his writing ...inticing. Need antidote.



TROG "But what do I know of affirmative action of introspection, adoration and desire? Am I just a doll (?), or, most evidently, a Canadian infraction against the circumstances of disease."

(A play by Bowden)

Kiko
19th March 10, 09:26 AM
Jesus, Phil Hartman just isn't funny anymore.

^
Has won the thread....

Madgrenade
19th March 10, 09:33 AM
* For those who don't follow British politics, the BNP are a racial nationalist party whose leadership get invited to speak at Klan rallies.

They are also our last, best hope for zyclon B

nihilist
19th March 10, 10:35 AM
Aren't ppl posting videos supposed to write a paragraph or something?

Commodore Pipes
19th March 10, 12:42 PM
Well, Cullion does include his opinion. Once you open with 'this man is evil', any additional information would be unnecessary, unless it is to discuss how this gentleman looks like the saucy offspring of Brian Cox and Joaquim de Almeida.

Steve
19th March 10, 01:37 PM
Aren't ppl posting videos supposed to write a paragraph or something?

Yes, but Cullion moved the thread back into GZ after I moved it to CTC with "this srs" as a reason.

I then promptly lost interest.

Cullion
19th March 10, 04:41 PM
Aren't ppl posting videos supposed to write a paragraph or something?

I'm sorry for not providing a meaty piece of text. I did actually intend for this to be taken more seriously, but I did it in a rush.

I thought the idea of a reasonably intelligent, well read and creative person (which this guy is) who has nonetheless taken the journey to despicable nazi-like views, in the postmodern era, and attempts to justify them would be interesting.

I was quite serious about wanting DAYoung's advice here. I'm quite serious about asking sociocide's help in analysing his rheotorical techniques, literary and cultural critiques and artwork.

I'm sorry for not putting the work in before Reese, but this one matters. I've seen this man in real life, stirring a crowd. I need to move this particular element of the discussion to the PAC to explain in more detail.

I believe that ideas matter, and I believe this man to be intellectually dangerous. 'Hate crime' nonsense won't work against him, neither should it.

This is a kulturkampf that the side of right must win. I'm not smart enough to do it alone.

Cullion
19th March 10, 04:46 PM
And so this man is your only hope for the eradication of STDs?

Let's have that discussion in the other thread. Suffice to say, I'm not the kind of idiot who assumes that a higher stat for a particular dysfunction in an ethnic group is automatically evidence of that Ethnic group's inherent/genetic inferiority..

I'm well aware of the many shitty things that American society has done to African Americans.

However, I will not let somebody get away with 'it's cuz of church lol, look at bible belt' when there are clearly other factors that explain the phenomenon better. Enslaving people and then having one of your intelligence agencies traffic hard narcotics into their neighbourhoods whilst destroying their few functional schools (read Sowell, I don't have time to explain it all in this thread) probably didn't help. My point there was that you can blame religion for many things, but not this, okay ?

I'm quite serious about the danger posed by the man who is the focus of this thread.

HappyOldGuy
19th March 10, 04:57 PM
If you are really looking for political tactics, then ridicule and condescension focused on his indefensible political positions will serve you better than trying to outargue him on Heidegger.

If you are planning to tilt at that windmill as part of some bit of existential art, then you will need someone who has read more Heidegger than I have to help.

Cullion
19th March 10, 05:02 PM
Ridicule and condescension is already being employed against the BNP by pretty much the full weight of the mainstream media in the UK and it isn't working any more.

People like this man have to be unpicked from the root of their ideas.

Commodore Pipes
19th March 10, 05:07 PM
If you are really looking for political tactics, then ridicule and condescension focused on his indefensible political positions will serve you better than trying to outargue him on Heidegger.



I don't know about the BNP, but I wonder how many people who secretly agree with the Klan don't say so, because the face of the Klan is usually someone who is an ignorant, violent, unstable cunt. I imagine that an eloquent, intelligent, logical spokesman for the KKK who could make their philosophy appear rational and true could be more dangerous than the physical acts of the average mouth-foaming tit baby who gets to appear on Springer.

HappyOldGuy
19th March 10, 05:09 PM
The root of his ideas are either that brown people are icky or that he can get something he wants by playing up to people who think that brown people are icky.

The mainstream media can't do ridicule. Ask me nicely and we'll loan you the sisters of perpetual indulgence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sisters_of_Perpetual_Indulgence). They know ridicule.

And also how to catch blatant closet cases with their pants down on webcam.

HappyOldGuy
19th March 10, 05:10 PM
I don't know about the BNP, but I wonder how many people who secretly agree with the Klan don't say so, because the face of the Klan is usually someone who is an ignorant, violent, unstable cunt. I imagine that an eloquent, intelligent, logical spokesman for the KKK who could make their philosophy appear rational and true could be more dangerous than the physical acts of the average mouth-foaming tit baby who gets to appear on Springer.

The political career of David Duke would suggest otherwise.

Cullion
19th March 10, 05:17 PM
I don't know about the BNP, but I wonder how many people who secretly agree with the Klan don't say so, because the face of the Klan is usually someone who is an ignorant, violent, unstable cunt. I imagine that an eloquent, intelligent, logical spokesman for the KKK who could make their philosophy appear rational and true could be more dangerous than the physical acts of the average mouth-foaming tit baby who gets to appear on Springer.

^ Exactly.

The BNP have gained ground by talking about the things other politicians pretend aren't happening. The reason that I consider them evil is that their solutions to these problems are cruel and founded in an irrational hatred of phenotypes.

They believe that the blood in your veins is more important than the ideals you hold.

And even if we already lived in a 100% 'anglo' society where racism wasn't much of an issue, their social and economic policies are extremely authoritarian and foolish.

This man ought to be intelligent enough to see that, but it's almost as if he revels in the chaos and suffering those ideals would cause.

Having looked at the art on his website (which is, I'm afraid to say, relatively accomplished from my perspective), he seems to hint at self-portrait sometimes.

I'd like Danno to analyse it for me. Especially 'Kratos I'.

Cullion
19th March 10, 05:24 PM
The root of his ideas are either that brown people are icky or that he can get something he wants by playing up to people who think that brown people are icky.

I'm not sure. I think that's almost a side-effect of what he really thinks.



The mainstream media can't do ridicule.

Well, ok, but they do make a lot of effort with these people.



Ask me nicely and we'll loan you the sisters of perpetual indulgence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sisters_of_Perpetual_Indulgence). They know ridicule.

And also how to catch blatant closet cases with their pants down on webcam.

I'm not sure if attacking sexuality would work the same way here. We're a much less religious society (although we're still more like you than, say, modern France or Germany). We have openly gay cabinet ministers, extra-marital affairs are now basically survivable allegations with a good apology etc..

Firmly demonstrating financial corruption is more likely to work as an ad-hominem in the UK.

Commodore Pipes
19th March 10, 05:24 PM
The political career of David Duke would suggest otherwise.

Perhaps. Or perhaps he just reiterated the same tired drivel his slack-jawed associates did, but with bigger words and a nicer tone of voice, without creating new rationales that could seduce people on the fence. Though you're right; his association with the KKK branded him from the start, thank god.

Still, if something like the Tea Party taps into a demographic that feel sa certain way but can't articulate why, and justifies their emotions on the national stage, I wonder how far away we are from a meme that taps into latent emotions of racism and convinces the peiople who feel that way that there's nothing shameful about it.

I guess when I see that we are really only two generations removed from the vileness of segregation, and our leaders are only a generation removed or not at all, I can't help but think that those ideas are out there, very widespread, and the social teaching of the seventies and eighties has only imparted a sense that such thoughts are shameful and wrong - not eliminating the feelings, but tempering them with what is essentially social conditioning. What happens when someone develops a narrative that short-circuits the social conditioning?

Cullion
19th March 10, 05:30 PM
David Duke wasn't in the same circumstances as this guy. This could be a 'right time, right place' issue.

HappyOldGuy
19th March 10, 05:45 PM
David Duke wasn't in the same circumstances as this guy. This could be a 'right time, right place' issue.

Could be, but I don't really believe that ideology or intellectual debate are actually that relevant to the appeal (or deconstruction of) far right ideologies. I think pipes is onto something when he talks about inarticulate rage. But you can't defeat that by outarguing it. You can only make people laugh at it.

Which is the sort of theater that the sisters are really good at. Not that they would be above outing a guy like that, but street theater is their main gig. Although, given the demographics and beliefs of the BNP, I'm pretty sure that an outing would be the end of his career.

Cullion
19th March 10, 05:50 PM
Could be, but I don't really believe that ideology or intellectual debate are actually that relevant to the appeal (or deconstruction of) far right ideologies.

One part of the reason the BNP have been gaining ground in the UK is that they've been able to somewhat shed their 'despicable violent skinhead' image and appear like respectable patriots with real ideas. A revolt against 'political correctness' etc.. This man is a big part of that.



I think pipes is onto something when he talks about inarticulate rage. But you can't defeat that by outarguing it. You can only make people laugh at it.

This man's rage is evil and wrong, but it is not inarticulate IMHO. I take your point about the difficulty of changing a belief by 'proving' it wrong (look how often that fails for us on sociocide amongst ourselves), but I do believe that it's possible to culturally subvert an idea with proper thought and access to the right publicity channels.



Which is the sort of theater that the sisters are really good at. Not that they would be above outing a guy like that, but street theater is their main gig. Although, given the demographics and beliefs of the BNP, I'm pretty sure that an outing would be the end of his career.

I don't think it would in the UK. Many of the top Nazis were gay, Griffin, their leader has been accused of gay affairs by former aides, and it doesn't stick. We just don't have the same cultural leverage points that you find in the US. It's easier to upset working class brits by pointing out that somebody is a thief.

Commodore Pipes
19th March 10, 05:53 PM
Which is the sort of theater that the sisters are really good at. Not that they would be above outing a guy like that, but street theater is their main gig. Although, given the demographics and beliefs of the BNP, I'm pretty sure that an outing would be the end of his career.

This statement reminds me of the school in Billy Jack, in a good way. I'll have to check the sisters out.

HappyOldGuy
19th March 10, 06:01 PM
This could be a case of similar looking things actually being alot different across the water. Here in the states, those idiots are around, but they have gone from being pretty mainstream within my lifetime, to being a despised lunatic fringe. In the last 15 years or so, the lunatic fringe has grown some, but primarily because of close associations with prison gangs that do up the numbers a bit but guarantee permanent irrelevance in politics. I almost feel sorry for them in terms of mainstream culture, however if you are involved in any way with our criminal justice system then these fuckheads can be a serious threat.

But the result is that guys who try to step up as respectable frontmen, it just doesn't work.

Although another difference is that our mainstream right probably has more nudge nudge wink wink racists in it than yours does, a la Glen beck et al, which also steals the respectable members from the far right nutjobs.

Cullion
19th March 10, 06:08 PM
Although another difference is that our mainstream right probably has more nudge nudge wink wink racists in it than yours does, a la Glen beck et al, which also steals the respectable members from the far right nutjobs.

I think it's this plus our more generous welfare system heightens the contrast. I think this applies across much of Western Europe.

Robot Jesus
19th March 10, 06:19 PM
I agree with many of his observations, but what is implied is horrifying. his power is he talks about problems most would like to forget exists; so if you wish to vanquish him you must engage him on this level, but suggest alternative solutions that aren't racially biased. it's not about Anglo Saxons Vs. the world. that's too easy to be true. the real fight is to change the fight.

Cullion
19th March 10, 06:24 PM
There's one serious UK cultural problem that's he's targeting sharply:

Our mostly liberal (i.e. soft-left) intelligensia ought to be, and once were, the cultural leaders of the working class, but they no longer give a shit. They actively and publicly dislike the white working class, and the white working class know it. This is what teaching college kids that white people who didn't go to college are 'crackers' or 'rednecks' leads to.

In the long term, you cannot effectively lead or teach people that you despise. It falls apart once the respect and cultural mystique is gone.

Keep in mind that this is a country that once sent out Atlantic anti-slavery patrols and had Indian MPs in parliament in the 19th century.

This man is tapping into that need for leadership. He's a dangerous and warped intellectual. Ideas matter.

Cullion
19th March 10, 06:43 PM
He's making Nordic soft-porn and concealing it behind an intellectumullal sounding name. This is quite misogynistic.

http://www.veoh.com/browse/videos/category/sexy/watch/v19026480Ydyp2ghM#

This actually makes the job easier. This is chrischan territory.

billy sol hurok
19th March 10, 06:56 PM
our mainstream right probably has more nudge nudge wink wink racists in it than yours does, a la Glen beck et al, which also steals the respectable members from the far right nutjobs.
bO-xqiG9LOc

Cullion
19th March 10, 07:07 PM
The problem with using Obama as an example of racism is that he's obviously an incompetent chump acting as a PR agent for banking interests.

billy sol hurok
19th March 10, 07:21 PM
If you are really looking for political tactics, then ridicule and condescension focused on his indefensible political positions will serve you better than trying to outargue him on Heidegger.

Fo sho.

Whatcha want to do, pry Heidegger away from the Nazis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heidegger_and_Nazism)? Talk about a fool's errand.

He was a Nazi not by accident but by da-sein (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dasein).

Cullion
19th March 10, 07:25 PM
Billy, you misunderstand the problem at hand.

The problem at hand is not demonstrating that somebody's opinions are Nazi, but persuading the people he's preaching to that Naziism is not OK.

That sounds absurd in our day and age, no?

Unfortunately it's not.

DAYoung
19th March 10, 11:43 PM
I only listened to the first video, Cullion.

On the whole, it's OK. Though his claim that Heidegger is an essentialist is a bit misleading. As I understand him, Heidegger thinks any 'essence' is a kind of metaphysics, i.e. a deadening of Being's ambiguous process. The closest he gets is the 'essence' of a people, i.e. culture, which is a folk's destiny by virtue of their relationship to Being. But this is contingent, changeable, precarious.

Heidegger is pre-modern in his approach at time, i.e. medieval. But to see him as a plain essentialist is to misunderstand him, I think. He's more process philosopher than essentialist. If anything, he's close to someone like Meister Eckhart. There is something that precedes us, but it's understood as inexplicable, hidden, shifting, receding.

This is not an essence as I understand it.

DAYoung
19th March 10, 11:43 PM
Also: win for Billy's puns.

Ajamil
20th March 10, 01:47 AM
Here in the states, those idiots are around, but they have gone from being pretty mainstream within my lifetime, to being a despised lunatic fringe.I used to think this way, but since moving to PA, I've severely conditioned this idea.

The Klan itself isn't in any big (public) position, however there is a LOT of just accepted racism in the day-to-day life of people in the Harrisburg area. Consider when a fellow server got stiffed from a table, she wasn't to upset by this one, naturally, because the reasoning was clear, "Well, I wasn't expecting a tip from black people anyway."

I'm not making that up, or embellishing the quote in any way. There was not even a thought that it might just be their upbringing, or they might just be assholes. It would be assholes if they were white, but since the family was black, it was expected that they not tip. I've seen the dishers laughingly give Nazi salutes, brand themselves Himmler and make napkin hoods. I'd love to brush it off as humor in bad taste, but it seems to be the only joke some of them know. To hear a cook during rush hour yell that someone should "quit being a nigger," with no inflection or hidden intent/meaning other than "I am associating you with black people, who are inherently disgusting, thus you are disgusting simply by association," makes me double-take...or it used to.

I don't know if it's the strange set-up of Harrisburg, with the river acting almost like a wall between the suburban whites and the urban blacks. There's such proximity and mixing of fate, with almost no interaction and mixing of people/culture.

DAYoung
20th March 10, 02:03 AM
If you are planning to tilt at that windmill as part of some bit of existential art, then you will need someone who has read more Heidegger than I have to help.

I have read more Heidegger than you. And even if I thought this chap were ABSOLUTELY off the track, it wouldn't harm his cause.

Heidegger is just a tool for him. Arguing against the tool won't help.

In short: I think I agree with you, HappyOldGuy.

DAYoung
20th March 10, 02:09 AM
Cullion, who does Bowden mean when he says 'we'? Does he mean white, Anglo-Saxons?

nihilist
20th March 10, 02:12 AM
Cullion denies any connection.

Ajamil
20th March 10, 02:41 AM
OK this is uncanny*.

http://img638.imageshack.us/img638/6686/magnetophilosopher2.jpg

DAY, we're going to need you to wax your head, get in a wheelchair, and put on this X. I know you're more of a Trekkie, but this works too well.


*Unintentional pun, but I'm keeping it!

Cullion
20th March 10, 04:18 AM
Cullion, who does Bowden mean when he says 'we'? Does he mean white, Anglo-Saxons?

He's not limiting it to Anglo Saxons. I think he believes in some variant of Aryanism.

DAYoung
20th March 10, 05:00 AM
He's not limiting it to Anglo Saxons. I think he believes in some variant of Aryanism.

1. I don't understand what benefits Aryanism confers on its members. That is, I can't see why they think their past strength is a racial attribute. Perhaps English culture deserves to be rejuvenated - but this not a matter of skin colour.

2. Also, this attitude seems weak, defensive, petty - the laments and gnashing of losers. Tolerance was, for English like Locke, a sign of incredible strength, i.e. "We think you're barmy little weirdos, but we respect your right to be barmy little weirdos (unless you're Catholic) because ours is a strong, lawful country. We can be more secure and stable if we just let you be barmy in peace."

Zendetta
20th March 10, 01:14 PM
*Paging Monsieur Normand*

Robot Jesus
20th March 10, 02:15 PM
what you need to defeat this man is someone who can approach these same issues in a manner that he cannot comprehend.

I remember reading an article complaining about the state of the Muslim clergy in Toronto; basically it was a moderate Muslim who was sick of clerics being imported from afar who barely spoke English who where more likely to speak on the crusades then any issue of faith a Muslim living in Toronto. a similar grievance could really short circuitthis mans message; a loud and angry campaign for a "British Islam" not an "Islamic Britain".

this mans strength is twofold. Firstly he is speaking on very real issues that other politicians are reluctant to speak on, very little can be done about this; it's really a good in and of it's self. his second strength is where he can be attacked; he paints two widely diverse groups with the same brush, these groups are "us" and "them". "us" constitutes a morally right British working class who has been exploited by liberal poofters. "them" constitutes a foreign element who want to impose their own ideology and are being treated with unfair preference my said poofters.
it's easier to disprove the "them" as a homogeneous group, then it is to disprove the "us".

Cullion
21st March 10, 08:51 AM
1. I don't understand what benefits Aryanism confers on its members. That is, I can't see why they think their past strength is a racial attribute.

I'm inferring that's what he believes based on the company he keeps and the fact that he can't just be talking about 'Anglo Saxons' because that wouldn't make sense in a British Nationalist context.

He spends very little time actually talking about race, i) Because this can now easily get you arrested in the UK and ii) Because white nationalist politics in the UK is more of a protest movement against a liberal elite that the white working class feel have abandoned them, rather than a staunch racist position (the leadership are all true racists and anti-semites, but it's not accurate to believe the working class followers all are).




Perhaps English culture deserves to be rejuvenated - but this not a matter of skin colour.

You know that, and I know that, but we're talking about somebody who's capable of stirring crowds of people who don't know that. The positive case has to be made just as persuasively, and it's got to be made to people who so far have seen mass immigration working directly against their own economic and cultural interests. The key to unpicking this is definitely not going to come from telling these people their grievances are imagined, I think it's got to be based around showing them convincingly that they're just blaming the wrong bad-guy.



2. Also, this attitude seems weak, defensive, petty - the laments and gnashing of losers.

That's because that's exactly what it is, but I'm not sure if pointing that out to the people involved is likely to persuade them of much.

I can picture it:-

"Yeah, thanks for telling me I'm a f**cking loser because I've failed to outcompete all the imported young, desperate and cheap labour that you've made me subsidise the arrival of with my taxes, what was I thinking ?

Yeah I completely see your point of view, it must be a nightmare to have to pay above minimum wage for waiting staff or getting your plumbing fixed.

I should have gone to law school". (never going to happen dude, srs)

^
'Oops, I didn't mean that to happen' is not going to be a sufficient social liberal response to this greivance. Seriously.



Tolerance was, for English like Locke, a sign of incredible strength, i.e. "We think you're barmy little weirdos, but we respect your right to be barmy little weirdos (unless you're Catholic) because ours is a strong, lawful country. We can be more secure and stable if we just let you be barmy in peace."

The UK is no longer a strong or lawful country in the eyes of many who remember the UK of a generation or two ago, that's why this kind of dangerous ideology is spreading.

Truculent Sheep
21st March 10, 08:25 PM
The BNP is a protest vote pure and simple, at least for all the alleged BNP voters I've met (and I live a lot of the time in Dagenham/Barking). They don't really think about the policies ('NATIONAL SERVICE???') - they just derive perverse pleasure from voting for a party that panders to their darker sides and provokes the centre left media and politicos. Whether they actually want the BNP to get in, or even give a toss what this man says, is a different matter altogether though. If Labour is out on May 7th, watch the BNP's support base dry up very quickly.

Cullion
21st March 10, 08:28 PM
The BNP is a protest vote pure and simple, at least for all the alleged BNP voters I've met (and I live a lot of the time in Dagenham/Barking). They don't really think about the policies ('NATIONAL SERVICE???') - they just derive perverse pleasure from voting for a party that panders to their darker sides and provokes the centre left media and politicos.

^ this is very true.



Whether they actually want the BNP to get in, or even give a toss what this man says, is a different matter altogether though. If Labour is out on May 7th, watch the BNP's support base dry up very quickly.

I'm not confident about that because I expect Cameron to effect little real change other than the 10+% public spending cuts which any incoming party would be forced to enact, and that's going to piss off the BNPs core vote even more, because you and I both know he's not going to withdraw from the middle east, stop funding the banks etc..

He's already ring-fenced foreign aid, even to countries like India which despite requiring our assistance to lift them out of 'poverty' can find enough of their own money to fund nuclear weapons research and space exploration programmes.

Nor is he going to withdraw our EU contribution or do anything that much annoys the Comission for Racial Equality. He's going to sack shitloads of blue collar people from local govt. and NHS jobs, enact some token reforms in policing and highly centralised educational policy which will eventually be hobbled by highly ideological career bureaucracts who are now way up the management structure of those organisations and use the military to fill any gaps when there are strikes (without increasing their funding substantially to compensate) and at best put the rest of it on hold.

The incoming Tory govt. are hardly from the same stamp as Churchill or Thatcher.

partyboy
21st March 10, 09:08 PM
DAYoung, behold your nemesis.

http://awkwardfamilyphotos.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/X.jpg

???????

Robot Jesus
22nd March 10, 12:03 AM
nN2C6L9v2XM

Keith
22nd March 10, 12:22 AM
The positive case has to be made just as persuasively, and it's got to be made to people who so far have seen mass immigration working directly against their own economic and cultural interests.

http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/155419

I don't know how to embed clips from this site.

nihilist
22nd March 10, 12:04 PM
http://awkwardfamilyphotos.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/X.jpg

???????

That would be nemeses or nemesi.

AAAhmed46
22nd March 10, 12:13 PM
what you need to defeat this man is someone who can approach these same issues in a manner that he cannot comprehend.

I remember reading an article complaining about the state of the Muslim clergy in Toronto; basically it was a moderate Muslim who was sick of clerics being imported from afar who barely spoke English who where more likely to speak on the crusades then any issue of faith a Muslim living in Toronto. a similar grievance could really short circuitthis mans message; a loud and angry campaign for a "British Islam" not an "Islamic Britain".

this mans strength is twofold. Firstly he is speaking on very real issues that other politicians are reluctant to speak on, very little can be done about this; it's really a good in and of it's self. his second strength is where he can be attacked; he paints two widely diverse groups with the same brush, these groups are "us" and "them". "us" constitutes a morally right British working class who has been exploited by liberal poofters. "them" constitutes a foreign element who want to impose their own ideology and are being treated with unfair preference my said poofters.
it's easier to disprove the "them" as a homogeneous group, then it is to disprove the "us".

Where did you read this? The national post or toronto star?
If it was the post, it was probably Tarek Fatah, who is a socialist/marxist muslim who for some reason, tends to speak alot for the canadian right.

He isn't a bad guy, but harps on guys who have a more conservative veiw of islam vs his highly liberal ones, and brands them extremists, when they are just conservative.

He is right about the imams, though most are harmless.

Robot Jesus
22nd March 10, 05:30 PM
I don't remember, not even certain it was Toronto; but I don't generally read the NP. if i remember correctly it didn't say the imams where doing harm exactly, just not being very spiritually useful; I think he equated it to Latin mass.

AAAhmed46
26th March 10, 12:15 AM
Probably right.

AAAhmed46
26th March 10, 12:17 AM
I'm inferring that's what he believes based on the company he keeps and the fact that he can't just be talking about 'Anglo Saxons' because that wouldn't make sense in a British Nationalist context.

He spends very little time actually talking about race, i) Because this can now easily get you arrested in the UK and ii) Because white nationalist politics in the UK is more of a protest movement against a liberal elite that the white working class feel have abandoned them, rather than a staunch racist position (the leadership are all true racists and anti-semites, but it's not accurate to believe the working class followers all are).




You know that, and I know that, but we're talking about somebody who's capable of stirring crowds of people who don't know that. The positive case has to be made just as persuasively, and it's got to be made to people who so far have seen mass immigration working directly against their own economic and cultural interests. The key to unpicking this is definitely not going to come from telling these people their grievances are imagined, I think it's got to be based around showing them convincingly that they're just blaming the wrong bad-guy.



That's because that's exactly what it is, but I'm not sure if pointing that out to the people involved is likely to persuade them of much.

I can picture it:-

"Yeah, thanks for telling me I'm a f**cking loser because I've failed to outcompete all the imported young, desperate and cheap labour that you've made me subsidise the arrival of with my taxes, what was I thinking ?

Yeah I completely see your point of view, it must be a nightmare to have to pay above minimum wage for waiting staff or getting your plumbing fixed.

I should have gone to law school". (never going to happen dude, srs)

^
'Oops, I didn't mean that to happen' is not going to be a sufficient social liberal response to this greivance. Seriously.



The UK is no longer a strong or lawful country in the eyes of many who remember the UK of a generation or two ago, that's why this kind of dangerous ideology is spreading.


British culture needs to be rejuvenated? I think you folks have a pretty strong culture. Great comedy, great food and literature. Some people harp on british woman, but they got some nice tits.

I love fish and chips. Never had blood pudding though.

Your cops look stupid however. Dump that shit!

Truculent Sheep
26th March 10, 04:19 PM
I grant you that we do still have some strong points, but a combination of apathy, little or no civic participation and bloated monopolies, be they the City, the banks or unreformed state outfits like the police and the teaching profession, does rather get in the way. Not so much that we're on the brink of collapse, mind you, but it is difficult at times.

On the other hand, I'm skint but I've got a roof over my head, I'm well-fed, I'm healthy and I've got Wi-Fi. It could be much worse, though living in the country with the most CCTV cameras does make me pessimistic too. I suppose we are at or are nearing a turning point, and it troubles me where it might turn.

Cullion
26th March 10, 05:17 PM
Yup. This is just the moment to nip people like the guy in the OP in the bud.

Banning them from saying what they think or lying about them is not just wrong in an abstract way, from a purely pragmatic point of view, it appears to be backfiring spectacularly.

Zendetta
26th March 10, 05:24 PM
Not so much that we're on the brink of collapse, mind you, but it is difficult at times.

Great Civilizations are more likely to end in a Whimper than a Bang, imo.


Banning them from saying what they think or lying about them is not just wrong in an abstract way, from a purely pragmatic point of view, it appears to be backfiring spectacularly.

Sunlight is the Best Disinfectant, etc.

Cullion
26th March 10, 06:25 PM
Yes. At present the 'liberal establishment' are in panic. The problem is that they have actually told a lot of lies about immigration (amongst other things), and the BNP, whilst they draw downright barbaric conclusions, are largely responding to the things that people actually see with their own eyes and then selling them a warped response.

Our establishment cannot make plausible headway against these arguments in debate because they've held a dishonest party line for so long it's almost impossible for them to be straight without a) humiliating themselves by totally reversing positions they publicly held for decades and would be showing themselves to have lied about and b) simply not being believed.

At present this allows the BNP to portray themselves as a protest movement which campaigns for freedom of speech and 'fair' treatment for white working class people who currently see themselves getting put lower down the queue public assistance in some of our urban metropoli etc..

Of course their own leaderships' real policies are straight-up authoritarian national socialism. Hmm... Maybe that's the best line to take with these people.

'Yes, New Labour/Mainstream Tories lie about this, however the BNP's answer is fucking nuts, look..'

Zendetta
26th March 10, 08:21 PM
Yes. At present the 'liberal establishment' are in panic. The problem is that they have actually told a lot of lies about immigration (amongst other things), and the BNP, whilst they draw downright barbaric conclusions, are largely responding to the things that people actually see with their own eyes and then selling them a warped response.

Our establishment cannot make plausible headway against these arguments in debate because they've held a dishonest party line for so long it's almost impossible for them to be straight without a) humiliating themselves by totally reversing positions they publicly held for decades and would be showing themselves to have lied about and b) simply not being believed.

Interesting. Can you give some specific examples of this?

Cullion
28th March 10, 06:12 PM
A recently exposed one would be this :-http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/lawandorder/6418456/Labour-wanted-mass-immigration-to-make-UK-more-multicultural-says-former-adviser.html

During the time period discussed, this was spun as follows:-

i) Mass immigration is not in fact occurring on the scale people think it is, it's just paranoia.

ii) All immigration of any sort is always a benefit to 'the economy'. Immigrants never cost more in welfare benefits, additional law enforcement costs and healthcare than they produce.

iii) The UK govt. cannot in fact try to control immigration without breaching international treaty <x> (This argument amounts to 'when a politician signs an agreement that wasn't even part of their election manifesto, the content of that agreement becomes completely outside democratic review in perpetuity', which is absurd).

Essentially it's a weird alliance of right and left. On the right, it's about private corporations importing a cheaper workforce for their profit, whilst socialising the costs out to the same people who lose out economically from the increased tax burden and the new labour market competition.

On the other hand, elements of the political left, as shown above, simply don't like the culture they grew up in and want to transform it without having to actually persuade their fellow brits of the benefits, but simply by mass importation of new voting blocks.

Zendetta
29th March 10, 05:09 PM
A recently exposed one would be this :-http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/lawandorder/6418456/Labour-wanted-mass-immigration-to-make-UK-more-multicultural-says-former-adviser.html

Jesus Titty Fucking Christ. Can these people not see the coming backlash?

Cullion
29th March 10, 05:15 PM
Not consciously, no. They just think they're right, but that the rest of the population need some gradual opinion massage before they 'get it'.

One feature of New Labour leadership is that they appear to believe that all real world problems are essentially a question of public relations and mass psychology, and that these forces can always be turned to their favour by sufficient support from broadcast media and the right slogans.

Subsconsciously, I think they've got very guilty consciences, and they're basically scared of the British population at large, hence gradually turning the UK into a highly surveilled police state where you can get arrested for peacefully expressing dissenting opinions, and why they're obsessed with disarming the populace.

They've blundered their way into a fucked-up looking glass world where a party founded by people like this:-

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_jLmX_8LH3uo/SdD7ANLIi1I/AAAAAAAAEc8/Uc_1Rb5vSDk/s400/BNP+Founder+John+Tyndall+left.JPG

(The man on the left is John Tyndall, British Nazi and the founder of the BNP, of which the subject of this thread is now the 'Cultural Officer'. No, the Hitler portrait and swastikas are not photoshopped, and yes that was taken in the UK at a time when WWII was still well within living memory for most adults).

..is now getting away with presenting itself as a protest movement which stands up for freedom.



Oh! what a tangled web we weave
When first we practise to deceive!

Zendetta
29th March 10, 05:17 PM
Bloody Hell.

Cullion
29th March 10, 05:36 PM
I see this as a struggle of ideas.

Truculent Sheep
31st March 10, 06:20 PM
For Americans unaware or confused by the pro- and anti-BNP debates, here follows some core arguments from both sides and a vernacular translation (in italics) for the benefit of our transatlantic cousins:

The archetypical BNP supporter:



Look, it's not about race, it's about numbers
- I don't like wogs.

I'm not racist but
- I don't like wogs.

Some of my best friends who are black/Asian agree with me.
- I don't like wogs, except when it's convenient.

Our island is really overcrowded.
- I don't like wogs and I've never been to Bangladesh.

I was never consulted...
- I don't like wogs and I don't understand how a constitutional democracy works.

I'm voting BNP, at least they're not like other politicians.
- I don't like wogs and I was born yesterday.

I was driven out of Southall.
- I don't like wogs and neither did my parents, hence why they and their neighbours moved out en masse when Asians started moving in.

The BNP represent real people
- The BNP represent idiots who haven't read their manifesto (and don't like wogs).

I'm really worried about Islamists so I'm voting BNP.
- I am really scared of a bunch of mysoginist, racist, facisct bastards so to remedy that I will vote for another bunch of mysoginist, racist, facisct bastards.

Whites don't have rights any more.
- Selective logic can prove anything. Oh, and I don't like wogs.

It's political correctness gone mad!
- I have no opinions of my own and confuse exceptional cases with the general. Oh, and I don't like wogs, or poofs either.

They were being really cruel to poor Nick Griffin on Question Time!
- That poor, neo-nazi, holocaust denying, white supremacist, pro-eugenics, violent-thug-loving little thing!

The archetypical anti-BNP activist:



Multiculturalism has made Britain a great place.
- I really like segregation.

Immigration has made this country a better place.
- I can hire a cheaper plumber.

The BNP should never be given a platform.
- Stupid poor white people are so easily lead.

We mustn't pass judgement on other cultures.
- Silly brown people! That's just the way they behave.

I don't think we have the right to impose our values on others.
- I'm too chicken to face up to honour killings.

Multiculturalism is a great antidote to racism.
- I like reducing people to adjectives and categories.

We need to face up to the harm we've inflicted on the world during the days of Empire.
- Just as long as I don't have to give up my salary or big house.

Multicultural London is so vibrant!
- I live in the suburbs.

There's no excuse for racism.
- This is a problem only upper middle class white people can resolve.

Multiculturalism means fairness for all.
- Public services are crap for everyone.

Multiculturalism means social justice.
- I can afford to move into a good catchment area.

Why can't we all be friends?
- God, I hope they don't find common cause: we're fucked if that happens.

Robot Jesus
31st March 10, 06:29 PM
it should be noted that there was a demographic that agreed with Alf Garnett, no one really agreed with Archie Bunker

HappyOldGuy
31st March 10, 06:30 PM
it should be noted that there was a demographic that agreed with Alf Garnett, no one really agreed with Archie Bunker

Agreed with him. Fuck, my grandfather was him. (archie)

Robot Jesus
31st March 10, 10:51 PM
ahh, ya dingbat