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Tyrsmann
18th March 10, 01:01 AM
Dear Virus and fellow Denizens of Sociocide how do I actually successfully debate Muslim Creationists?

You see I'm on a Muslim forum called www.ummah.com/forum (http://www.ummah.com/forum).

I have nothing against Muslims but just some of the stuff I find on there is just...I'm not sure I know the word for it.

See for yourself
http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?253012-Evolution-unbelievers


It constantly becomes a no win situation because if you debate for Evolution than they just write you off as a kafir brainwashed by the secular establishment

I'm on there because I actually want to learn about how Muslims see things on an individual level. But I feel letting this stuff go unchallenged is doing a disservice to theists like myself who can actually see creationism for the drivel that is. My own understanding of Evolution is enough to see why it's the superior position of the two. So obviously part of it is reading more biology. But another question is how do present it in a way that is non-threatening to them as muslims?

Aphid Jones
18th March 10, 01:06 AM
A good way to start is by introducing several beautiful animals and other living things to the discussion, without bringing in their origins. Muslims, like most other people, appreciate the expression of forms that creation has wrought by whatever means.

Then slowly integrate interrelationships and genetic ancestry, adaptation, etc into the discussion. That's a good way to bridge the gap of labels.

Also I think it's important to keep in mind that you're trying to prove evolution is the most valid scientific theory, and not that Muslim creation is an inferior theological one.

SoulMechanic
18th March 10, 01:24 AM
Dude use the power of the assburger

Tyrsmann
18th March 10, 01:29 AM
Dude use the power of the assburger

Have I done to specifically piss you off?

Seriously, I mean it.

Steve
18th March 10, 01:31 AM
Have I done to specifically piss you off?

Seriously, I mean it.

This is a lesson: He wasn't talking about you specifically, just a politically incorrect joke or suggestion of action.

Tyrsmann
18th March 10, 02:05 AM
This is a lesson: He wasn't talking about you specifically, just a politically incorrect joke or suggestion of action.

Ah, okay. Thank you.

Keith
18th March 10, 02:51 AM
Debating creationists?
http://soledadpenades.com/imgs/wg.png

Lebell
18th March 10, 05:42 AM
i'd bring up the horse with the human head muhammad flew to jerusalem.
and go: ' orrly?'

Lebell
18th March 10, 05:48 AM
btw i love muslim/islam threads because then i get this banner of muslim matrimonial site with a cute headscarfed girl smiling at me.
those headscarfes are good for grabbing and pulling her head back when ur doing her doggy.

Lebell
18th March 10, 05:48 AM
btw i love muslim/islam threads because then i get this banner of muslim matrimonial site with a cute headscarfed girl smiling at me.
those headscarfes are good for grabbing and pulling her head back when ur doing her doggy.

Ajamil
18th March 10, 08:20 AM
I doubt anyone will have an epiphany in front of your eyes (or screen, whatever). I'd recommend going Socratic and asking them questions. Leave an impression - a lasting doubt that will cause a person to go look up more information for themselves. As long as it's someone else telling a person they're faith is "wrong," the rhetoric won't get very far.

Vieux Normand
18th March 10, 01:35 PM
Throw the book at them.

Sura 71 of the quran asks: "What is wrong with you, that you do not realise Allah hath created you in diverse stages?"

Remind them that there are near-countless places in the quran which refer to creation as an ongoing process, not something completed in some dim past.

Then rat them out to Homeland Security.

Spade: The Real Snake
18th March 10, 02:04 PM
Jesus will not let you fail, my son.

WarPhalange
18th March 10, 02:18 PM
You can't win. These people have their minds made up. They see you are an idiot and anything you say is either a lie or flat out wrong, period. Just leave them alone and let them die of tuberculosis because they didn't account for bacteria and viruses evolving.

Fearless Ukemi
18th March 10, 02:36 PM
Why would you want to?

And if you think those guys are bad, get a load of THESE guys: http://wakeupproject.com/forum/index.php

Spade: The Real Snake
18th March 10, 03:31 PM
Have you sent God an "Knee Mail" about it?

TheMightyMcClaw
18th March 10, 07:40 PM
I generally counter christian creationism with with Eddic creationism, which, if nothing else, most people are not at all prepared to argue against.
I'm sure you're already well-versed in the material, so that should be no problem. If someone starts quoting the bible or the Quran at you, start quoting the Havamal and the Voluspa back at them. If they start talking about God's judgement, Inform them of the imminent end of the world at the hands of Loki, Surtr, Fenrir, and Jormungandr. If they talk about heaven and hell, talk about Valhalla and the Folkvang.
It totally works. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxsqgQKnn8s)
(warning: 0:54 to 6:48 is just a creepy old guy talking about boobs)

Phrost
18th March 10, 07:53 PM
There's no point to doing this unless for some reason you are sincerely invested in the goal of secularizing Arab/Muslim culture.

Cullion
18th March 10, 08:03 PM
You cannot defeat a sincerely held belief in a supernatural being with the power to change scientific laws, by explaining scientific laws in a rational manner.

Phrost
18th March 10, 08:12 PM
There's no point to doing this unless for some reason you are sincerely invested in the goal of secularizing Arab/Muslim culture.

And the best way to do that is to build local Walmarts, not argue over the Internet.

Also, Cullion.

Tyrsmann
18th March 10, 11:39 PM
I generally counter christian creationism with with Eddic creationism, which, if nothing else, most people are not at all prepared to argue against.
I'm sure you're already well-versed in the material, so that should be no problem. If someone starts quoting the bible or the Quran at you, start quoting the Havamal and the Voluspa back at them. If they start talking about God's judgement, Inform them of the imminent end of the world at the hands of Loki, Surtr, Fenrir, and Jormungandr. If they talk about heaven and hell, talk about Valhalla and the Folkvang.
It totally works. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxsqgQKnn8s)
(warning: 0:54 to 6:48 is just a creepy old guy talking about boobs)

I've done that with some local missionaries. I've also thrown the Tuisto story of Tacitus' Germania at them as well. Interesting responses to say the least.

BTW, the video was hilarious

On a side note, I remember reading that Ragnarok was a just literary device used to make it seem like Christianity's dominance was inevitable. Valhalla also seems to be a post conversion invention. Though elements of Ragnarok and Valhalla do have roots in actual historical Heathenry.

Lebell
19th March 10, 03:38 AM
Throw the book at them.

Sura 71 of the quran asks: "What is wrong with you, that you do not realise Allah hath created you in diverse stages?"

Remind them that there are near-countless places in the quran which refer to creation as an ongoing process, not something completed in some dim past.

Then rat them out to Homeland Security.
Well, the thing with islam is, it's pretty much copied from pieces from the old and new testament with a new arabic superiority sauce on top of it.
When it was written in a cave by a prophet who got tortured by the angel gabriel whenever he refused (yes that alledgedly happened) it wasnt thought through very well.
Even parts got dictated by satan himself by accident ( devil verses).
So the muslim clergy in the centuries to come had to be extremely creative to explain and re-arrange the theology.

on creation they did their finest work, here's how it works: you see Allah created, creates and will recreate the world as Allah sees fit.
The world could be recreated 3 times this very day and we do not notice it.
such are the ways of Allah!

How fucking awesome is that???

So when there's still people who go: yeah but hang n, how could satan himself dictate stuff to the prophet while Allah was busy, or how come there's dinosaurbones in the soil, or why does allah not recreate the world in perfect harmoney'
you just yell HERETIC and stone em in the marketsquare.
problem solved.

see Americans?
this is why you're going to lose this war.

Madgrenade
19th March 10, 09:56 AM
You may as well go into your garden and try debating a bird down out of a tree.

Ajamil
19th March 10, 10:40 AM
You can talk a bird down from a tree, it depends on the bird.

TheMightyMcClaw
19th March 10, 10:54 AM
I've done that with some local missionaries. I've also thrown the Tuisto story of Tacitus' Germania at them as well. Interesting responses to say the least.

BTW, the video was hilarious

On a side note, I remember reading that Ragnarok was a just literary device used to make it seem like Christianity's dominance was inevitable. Valhalla also seems to be a post conversion invention. Though elements of Ragnarok and Valhalla do have roots in actual historical Heathenry.

I've heard that theory, and I'm dubious of it; there's too much that builds up to Ragnarok for it to be something that was tacked on at the end. Odin sacrificing his eye for visions of the future; Loki's binding, and the events that lead up to (the slaying of Baldur, and Loki's insults at the feast); the birth of Jormungandr and Fenrir; Frey giving away his sword; Valhalla, the Folkvang, and the Einherjar; and so on.
Ragnarok strikes me as a culmination of the conflict between the Aesir and Jotunn that seems to be going on in the background of most Eddic poetry/literature. It also seems like a parallel between the Aesir/Vanir war.
There are some elements that seem tacked on, such as the talk of a "god greater that Odin" coming post-Ragnarok.

Ajamil
19th March 10, 11:06 AM
You know, I don't think I know the full story of Odin and His crew. Something you'll have to tell me `tween games, McClaw.

TheMightyMcClaw
19th March 10, 11:32 AM
You know, I don't think I know the full story of Odin and His crew. Something you'll have to tell me `tween games, McClaw.

Can do. I almost used an ancient and beleaguered Odin in human guise as one of the characters for the World War I game.

Vieux Normand
19th March 10, 01:22 PM
I've heard that theory, and I'm dubious of it; there's too much that builds up to Ragnarok for it to be something that was tacked on at the end. Odin sacrificing his eye for visions of the future; Loki's binding, and the events that lead up to (the slaying of Baldur, and Loki's insults at the feast); the birth of Jormungandr and Fenrir; Frey giving away his sword; Valhalla, the Folkvang, and the Einherjar; and so on.
Ragnarok strikes me as a culmination of the conflict between the Aesir and Jotunn that seems to be going on in the background of most Eddic poetry/literature. It also seems like a parallel between the Aesir/Vanir war.
There are some elements that seem tacked on, such as the talk of a "god greater that Odin" coming post-Ragnarok.

Eschatology was around long before christianity. The idea of the old world being swept away by some cataclysm, making room for a reborn world is quite common in mythologies worldwide. The Norse version hints at a cyclical view of time (hence the whole "newborn-world-after-Surt-throws-his-hissyfit" thing). In the abrahamaniac version, of course, time is linear and there's only one beginning and only one end for the world. Imbeciles.

Science has its own version of eschatology: the latest I've read is that, five hundred millions years from now, the increase in ambient solar radiation will render Earth uninhabitable to eukaryotic life. Mind you, multicellular organisms have only been around for about six hundred million years, so--if the eggheads are right--we're past half way to our best-before date.

The last time I quoted Voluspa to a muzzie was a while back at work. The conversation finished thusly:

ME: See, so the god of speech gets swallowed up by the chaos-wolf in the final battle. The gods almost all die along with him. However, another god comes along and rips the chaos-wolf apart, sort-of saving the day while there is enough left for a new world to be born. This is the smartest of all gods. You know why, Rashid?

RASHID: Why?

ME: 'Cause he's the silent god. The lesson here is obvious: chatterbox deities get massacred, taciturn ones survive. Is your Allah a silent god or is he fulll of noise, chatter, laws and pronouncements?

RASHID: He commands us in the Qu'ran--

ME; Dumb move. Your god is doomed: not smart enough to keep his yap shut.

RASHID: Now wait a minute--

ME: Following the example of the gods, what is your smartest option?

RASHID: What do you mean--

ME: You make like a smart god and shut the fuck up.

RASHID: What the fuck--

ME: Besides, what are you even doing in a place full of alcohol and near-naked dancing girls? Hmmm?

RASHID: But--

ME: Shut the fuck up.

RASHID: You can't talk to me like--

ME: Shut the fuck up.

RASHID: What the--

ME: Now you're arguing with a staff member. You know this venue doesn't put up with mouthy patrons. Out you go...

RASHID: Hey, wait--

*The door slams. Rashid, outside, realises the cover-charge he just paid to get into the club has disappeared along with his beer-bottle and starts banging on the exit. What is it with fapistanis? The more pissed-off they get, the more their voices go into a mousey-shrieky falsetto. He then bangs on the exit extra-hard, after which there is nary a sound.*

Guess Rashid finally decided to make like a smart god. Anyway, there you go: religion sounds like fapistani shrieks and smells like beery puke. No, our species isn't doomed...

TheMightyMcClaw
19th March 10, 01:30 PM
You know, I never made the connection between Odin as the god of speech and Vidar as the god of silence. That's quite interesting.
I feel like there's a similar metaphor to be drawn of out Baldr (the god of light) being killed by Hod (the blind god of darkness), but I'm not sure what it is.

Tyrsmann
19th March 10, 01:39 PM
I've heard that theory, and I'm dubious of it; there's too much that builds up to Ragnarok for it to be something that was tacked on at the end. Odin sacrificing his eye for visions of the future; Loki's binding, and the events that lead up to (the slaying of Baldur, and Loki's insults at the feast); the birth of Jormungandr and Fenrir; Frey giving away his sword; Valhalla, the Folkvang, and the Einherjar; and so on.
Ragnarok strikes me as a culmination of the conflict between the Aesir and Jotunn that seems to be going on in the background of most Eddic poetry/literature. It also seems like a parallel between the Aesir/Vanir war.
There are some elements that seem tacked on, such as the talk of a "god greater that Odin" coming post-Ragnarok.



Most of the secondary sources I've read seem to portray the Norse Pantheon as much less organized then what we see in the Poetic Edda. I believe one book that is good on the subject and Norse myths in general is Rudolf Simek's Dictionary of Northern Mythology. It doesn't go into great detail but the book explains well enough on most subjects.

I'm dubious about the whole ragnarok thing mainly because it depends on the Norse Pantheon being more structured than, at least from what I've read, the historical and archeological evidence seems to suggest.

Just out of curiousity McClaw have you read the Prose Edda? You seem to familiar enough with the Poetic Edda. It'd be interesting to get your take the Prose Edda.

TheMightyMcClaw
19th March 10, 01:55 PM
Most of the secondary sources I've read seem to portray the Norse Pantheon as much less organized then what we see in the Poetic Edda. I believe one book that is good on the subject and Norse myths in general is Rudolf Simek's Dictionary of Northern Mythology. It doesn't go into great detail but the book explains well enough on most subjects.

I'm dubious about the whole ragnarok thing mainly because it depends on the Norse Pantheon being more structured than, at least from what I've read, the historical and archeological evidence seems to suggest.

Just out of curiousity McClaw have you read the Prose Edda? You seem to familiar enough with the Poetic Edda. It'd be interesting to get your take the Prose Edda.

Yep, I've read both. Generally, if there's a disparity between the two, I take the Poetic Edda as the more likely "legit" source, since poetry tends to change less over time than prose. Especially Icelandic poetry, which, as I understand it, will get really messed up if you change one little thing and throw off it's complicated meter/alliteration/etc.
The Prose Edda is a whole lot more readable, though, and it's pretty clear when it's just Snorri Sturlson talking out of his ass (like his ridiculous efforts to connect Norse mythology to the Trojan war) and when he's not.

Tyrsmann
19th March 10, 02:12 PM
Yep, I've read both. Generally, if there's a disparity between the two, I take the Poetic Edda as the more likely "legit" source, since poetry tends to change less over time than prose. Especially Icelandic poetry, which, as I understand it, will get really messed up if you change one little thing and throw off it's complicated meter/alliteration/etc.
The Prose Edda is a whole lot more readable, though, and it's pretty clear when it's just Snorri Sturlson talking out of his ass (like his ridiculous efforts to connect Norse mythology to the Trojan war) and when he's not.

I've always found the Prose Edda to be long winded but to each their own as they the saying goes. Anyway though I agree the Poetic Edda does seem to be the more "legit" source. However considering that almost everything we know comes from sources written by Christian hands I try to take everything with a grain of salt.

Adouglasmhor
19th March 10, 04:14 PM
Can do. I almost used an ancient and beleaguered Odin in human guise as one of the characters for the World War I game.
The Judge Dredd story with Odin complete with ravens in it is pretty awesome.

Vieux Normand
19th March 10, 04:39 PM
I'm dubious about the whole ragnarok thing mainly because it depends on the Norse Pantheon being more structured than, at least from what I've read, the historical and archeological evidence seems to suggest.

Much depends on the time period. During earlier Roman-Empire times, Tacitus records that Germanic gods such as Woden and Tiw did not have temples and statues dedicated to them because the Teutons did not see their gods as capable of being "confined" in buildings or idols.

This contrasts with accounts of the elaborate viking-period Uppsala temple, replete with statuary, described by travellers to Sweden. Were far-faring Norse influenced by statue-filled temples they found in their voyages? Would they have been similarly-influenced in terms of the contents of their mythology?

For whatever reasons, tribal religions--like other cultural characteristics--will not remain static, but would likely change over time.

Adouglasmhor
19th March 10, 04:47 PM
The best way to debate Islamists is to bring the subject round to Mohamed being a great big Paedophile - you still won't get anywhere but you will get a reaction.

Cullion
19th March 10, 07:12 PM
You may as well go into your garden and try debating a bird down out of a tree.


^

This shows a stroke of genius. I think we're done now.

kracker
19th March 10, 08:27 PM
The best way to debate Islamists is to bring the subject round to Mohamed being a great big Paedophile - you still won't get anywhere but you will get a reaction.

OMG THAT'S RACIST!!!!!! Completely accurate, but for some reason racist. Don't ask me how that works as I haven't got a fucking clue.

Fearless Ukemi
20th March 10, 05:06 PM
Eschatology was around long before christianity. The idea of the old world being swept away by some cataclysm, making room for a reborn world is quite common in mythologies worldwide. The Norse version hints at a cyclical view of time (hence the whole "newborn-world-after-Surt-throws-his-hissyfit" thing). In the abrahamaniac version, of course, time is linear and there's only one beginning and only one end for the world. Imbeciles.

Science has its own version of eschatology: the latest I've read is that, five hundred millions years from now, the increase in ambient solar radiation will render Earth uninhabitable to eukaryotic life. Mind you, multicellular organisms have only been around for about six hundred million years, so--if the eggheads are right--we're past half way to our best-before date.

The last time I quoted Voluspa to a muzzie was a while back at work. The conversation finished thusly:

ME: See, so the god of speech gets swallowed up by the chaos-wolf in the final battle. The gods almost all die along with him. However, another god comes along and rips the chaos-wolf apart, sort-of saving the day while there is enough left for a new world to be born. This is the smartest of all gods. You know why, Rashid?

RASHID: Why?

ME: 'Cause he's the silent god. The lesson here is obvious: chatterbox deities get massacred, taciturn ones survive. Is your Allah a silent god or is he fulll of noise, chatter, laws and pronouncements?

RASHID: He commands us in the Qu'ran--

ME; Dumb move. Your god is doomed: not smart enough to keep his yap shut.

RASHID: Now wait a minute--

ME: Following the example of the gods, what is your smartest option?

RASHID: What do you mean--

ME: You make like a smart god and shut the fuck up.

RASHID: What the fuck--

ME: Besides, what are you even doing in a place full of alcohol and near-naked dancing girls? Hmmm?

RASHID: But--

ME: Shut the fuck up.

RASHID: You can't talk to me like--

ME: Shut the fuck up.

RASHID: What the--

ME: Now you're arguing with a staff member. You know this venue doesn't put up with mouthy patrons. Out you go...

RASHID: Hey, wait--

*The door slams. Rashid, outside, realises the cover-charge he just paid to get into the club has disappeared along with his beer-bottle and starts banging on the exit. What is it with fapistanis? The more pissed-off they get, the more their voices go into a mousey-shrieky falsetto. He then bangs on the exit extra-hard, after which there is nary a sound.*

Guess Rashid finally decided to make like a smart god. Anyway, there you go: religion sounds like fapistani shrieks and smells like beery puke. No, our species isn't doomed...

Wow, you're kind of an asshole, but this really funny. Two thumbs up.

AAAhmed46
20th March 10, 07:27 PM
Dear Virus and fellow Denizens of Sociocide how do I actually successfully debate Muslim Creationists?

You see I'm on a Muslim forum called www.ummah.com/forum (http://www.ummah.com/forum).

I have nothing against Muslims but just some of the stuff I find on there is just...I'm not sure I know the word for it.

See for yourself
http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?253012-Evolution-unbelievers


It constantly becomes a no win situation because if you debate for Evolution than they just write you off as a kafir brainwashed by the secular establishment

I'm on there because I actually want to learn about how Muslims see things on an individual level. But I feel letting this stuff go unchallenged is doing a disservice to theists like myself who can actually see creationism for the drivel that is. My own understanding of Evolution is enough to see why it's the superior position of the two. So obviously part of it is reading more biology. But another question is how do present it in a way that is non-threatening to them as muslims?


Show him Shabir ally, a conservative muslim scholar and academic.

Oh shit, i posted the wrong link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umLPWV0H_nI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPZX_dNeBTM

My keyboard is still fucked, can someone put the YT tabs?


Also, Ummah.com...i have heard of muslims who get really frusterated argueing on that site.

They dont even consider the shiite muslims alot of of them.

AAAhmed46
20th March 10, 07:28 PM
Throw the book at them.

Sura 71 of the quran asks: "What is wrong with you, that you do not realise Allah hath created you in diverse stages?"

Remind them that there are near-countless places in the quran which refer to creation as an ongoing process, not something completed in some dim past.

Then rat them out to Homeland Security.


I cant believe i am actually agreeing with you regarding islam.

AAAhmed46
20th March 10, 07:35 PM
Tell them a few simple truths.

If your god makes you dress a certain way, he probably doesn't exist.

If your god restricts what you eat, he probably doesn't exist.

If your god treats women and men differently, he probably doesn't exist.

If your god elevates believers above non believers instead of kind / good people over mean / bad people he probably doesn't exist.

If he does any of the above he can't be an all powerful, all knowing being. He is most likely just a highly advanced alien fucking with a large group of people.

Or he is all powerful, and being all powerful in the truest sense means arrogance isn't wrong. So that basically means he can ask you do to whatever the hell he wants you to. Your choice to obey or not. He could make you obey with his powers, but he chooses not to.

Arrogance is a vice if you really have no reason to be. If you think your all powerful and limitless, and your not, your being arrogant.

If you think your all powerful, and you are all powerful, then your simply stating the facts.

If you are humble but all powerful, then you have little knowledge of yourself. Why should you have humility, when it is useless? You ahve nothing more to learn or develop, because you have perfection, something impossible to realize as a finite beings.

Now you can say such a thing or being does not exist. And maybe it does not.

But then, if it does, then it has all reason to order whatever it does. Besides, we as human beings have the ability to dress as this being wants to or to dress as you want to.

AAAhmed46
20th March 10, 07:41 PM
OMG THAT'S RACIST!!!!!! Completely accurate, but for some reason racist. Don't ask me how that works as I haven't got a fucking clue.


Wait isnt david a prophet of christianity? He killed a dude because he wanted to fuck his wife? Besides, the aisha thing has way too many dimensions to it: Such as the fact that the time she was recorded to have been born would mean she would have atleast been fourteen, or if she was 9, the fact she hit puberty and marriage based on puberty is not all that uncommon way back when and so on and so on....

I dont blame these athiests here on sociocide, they tend to mock everyone.

But Christians? Imams always say we have to be all respectful to Christians and Christianity since they are people of the book and we revere Jesus.
Bur clearly Christians don't have any such moral codes.


While i dont think such an accusation is racist, because it isnt, it is kind of hypocritical coming from judeo-chrisitan tradition since it has the same roots. Not only that, but all three religions come from the desert, NOT from europe, yet somehow there is an assumption that judeo christian tradition is highly european. Maybe today, All the strife and reformations and what not did some good, created stability since the evolution has gone its course. The Wahhabi movement is the ugly reaction a body is taking when it is trying to reject something that is good for it(modernization) so were seeiing all the swelling and rashes that are coming out. But right now, its just symptomatic. Your Shabir allys and Jeffery langs are the future of islam.


Nothing wrong with wahabism, i train MMA with a good friend who is a wahabi, i just dont agree with his theology.

AAAhmed46
20th March 10, 07:50 PM
Well, the thing with islam is, it's pretty much copied from pieces from the old and new testament with a new arabic superiority sauce on top of it.
When it was written in a cave by a prophet who got tortured by the angel gabriel whenever he refused (yes that alledgedly happened) it wasnt thought through very well.
Even parts got dictated by satan himself by accident ( devil verses).
So the muslim clergy in the centuries to come had to be extremely creative to explain and re-arrange the theology.

on creation they did their finest work, here's how it works: you see Allah created, creates and will recreate the world as Allah sees fit.
The world could be recreated 3 times this very day and we do not notice it.
such are the ways of Allah!

How fucking awesome is that???

So when there's still people who go: yeah but hang n, how could satan himself dictate stuff to the prophet while Allah was busy, or how come there's dinosaurbones in the soil, or why does allah not recreate the world in perfect harmoney'
you just yell HERETIC and stone em in the marketsquare.
problem solved.

see Americans?
this is why you're going to lose this war.


Despite what the crazies may say, islam never made any secret it was an add on to the old and new testament(though there will be dispute over the purity of the other texts) the whole statement (quatiation marks) HEY WHAT THE DEVIL PUT THESE VERSUS IN THE PROPHETS MOUTH(quatation marks) need to ask the question as to why satan would ask people not to harm eachother, or to be be honest to one another, to not kill those of different faiths and to prosecute a muslim who murders a member of a different faith. Satan would not promote any type of social justice or restraint.

The reason allah doesnt create a perfect world is the same reason the world is not perfect in any other faith:

Because just as the matrix said: How do we define what is good if there is no suffering?

Would people study for a college course if they are not going to be marked on it, or graded? If you walked into a university and they just handed out degrees, no on would study.

But there are tests, there is expectations. There is PRESSURE. That forces you to change and grow.

Because LIFE and the WORLD are NOT perfect, we change as individuals. We become smarter, we make moral decisions, we make intellectual decisions.

Stress(suffering is a form of stress) forces us to CHOOSE.

Im surprised this is a question for you lebell, as a gnostic christian, surely christianity teaches why god does not make the world perfect?

AAAhmed46
20th March 10, 07:54 PM
BTW alot of this B.S. is the fault of treating hadith like it is infallible, treating the quran like it is not free to different interpretation. Basically the whole four mathabs thing.

Lots of muslims will talk about how the founders of the four mathabs were considered heretics of their time to push the whole badassery.

Never stopping to consider that maybe the mutalazitealjelfjljdfl(i hate spelling or even pernouncing it) were actually much much more sophisticated then the four mathabs? Maybe the majority were right?

AAAhmed46
20th March 10, 08:02 PM
Oh and i edited the shabir ally link, added two parts to it, the one that talks about evolution is the first one.

Doritosaurus Chex
20th March 10, 08:09 PM
Would people study for a college course if they are not going to be marked on it, or graded? If you walked into a university and they just handed out degrees, no on would study.

But there are tests, there is expectations. There is PRESSURE. That forces you to change and grow.

Because LIFE and the WORLD are NOT perfect, we change as individuals. We become smarter, we make moral decisions, we make intellectual decisions.



I just read a reference to Glenn Beck on another site before I read this post. Thinking about Beck and reading this post at the same time made me laugh.

AAAhmed46
20th March 10, 08:15 PM
What did glenn beck say?

Doritosaurus Chex
20th March 10, 08:39 PM
Not what he said, but that reporters at Fox News thinks that him being the one of the leading forces of the network is hurting their credibility as reporters.

If you have people supporting the likes of Beck and Fox News, I found your statement how we grow and change quite hilarious.

AAAhmed46
20th March 10, 08:58 PM
Why, because he is not right wing enough for fox?

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/features/view/feature/Right-Explodes-at-Fox-over-Geert-Wilders-875


anyway, your totally right. It is funny when grouped with what i said about growing and changing.

AAAhmed46
20th March 10, 09:12 PM
I dont think beck is that bad actually. Just representing the station, rather then his own craziness.

Fearless Ukemi
20th March 10, 10:18 PM
Beck is a tool. On one hand he says we need to question everything and he is pro freedom and constitution all the way. Then on the other hand he supports the Patriot Act and says all 9-11 truthers should be locked up.

Dude talks out two sides of his face.

AAAhmed46
20th March 10, 10:27 PM
Look at the station he is on. What do you expect? I bet he is paid for this shit.

TheMightyMcClaw
20th March 10, 11:08 PM
Despite what the crazies may say, islam never made any secret it was an add on to the old and new testament(though there will be dispute over the purity of the other texts) the whole statement (quatiation marks) HEY WHAT THE DEVIL PUT THESE VERSUS IN THE PROPHETS MOUTH(quatation marks) need to ask the question as to why satan would ask people not to harm eachother, or to be be honest to one another, to not kill those of different faiths and to prosecute a muslim who murders a member of a different faith. Satan would not promote any type of social justice or restraint.

The reason allah doesnt create a perfect world is the same reason the world is not perfect in any other faith:

Because just as the matrix said: How do we define what is good if there is no suffering?

Would people study for a college course if they are not going to be marked on it, or graded? If you walked into a university and they just handed out degrees, no on would study.

But there are tests, there is expectations. There is PRESSURE. That forces you to change and grow.

Because LIFE and the WORLD are NOT perfect, we change as individuals. We become smarter, we make moral decisions, we make intellectual decisions.

Stress(suffering is a form of stress) forces us to CHOOSE.

Im surprised this is a question for you lebell, as a gnostic christian, surely christianity teaches why god does not make the world perfect?

I think there's a key difference between "Aw crap, I need to study for my astro 101 final" and "aw crap, God just destroyed my home, family, and nation with a torcano hurriquake."

AAAhmed46
20th March 10, 11:32 PM
Yes there is a difference. One is waaaay higher in volume.

But then, you got a guy who just had his home, family and nation destroyed in a tornado hurricane, then he rebuilds his house, his nation, and lives happily.

Or he can get angry, and mope and become bitter and hateful.


Oh crap, how can children be killed? how can god kill children?

Well one, everything dies, we know that.

number 2, if children were immortal until...i don't know, the age of 25(what measures when someone ceases to become a child and is not an adult? Puberty?) The need for parents...where would that go?
When our parents fuss, when our parents try to protect us and worry about us,we learn from that whether we like it or not.

Now also, if children are immortal until they are...whenever they stop being innocent or whatever(25?)
THey will become accostommed to living a lifestyle where you can get hit by a truck and survive.

The moment they lose their immortality (how will they know?) they may not be able to adapt to a lifestyle of mortality.


The very POSSIBLITY of children, and families, and wives and homes being destroyed makes us value homes...makes us value children, makes us value our wives and our homes. If all of these were permanent, alot of us would take it all for granted.

So yes.....there is a difference between having to study for a test, vs a guy who loses his home. THe difference is the intensity of the stress.

And i bet, the stress of the POSSIBLITY that he could lose everything may make him value the wife, the home, the children more.

Adouglasmhor
21st March 10, 01:39 AM
Wait isnt david a prophet of christianity? He killed a dude because he wanted to fuck his wife? Besides, the aisha thing has way too many dimensions to it: Such as the fact that the time she was recorded to have been born would mean she would have atleast been fourteen, or if she was 9, the fact she hit puberty and marriage based on puberty is not all that uncommon way back when and so on and so on....

I dont blame these athiests here on sociocide, they tend to mock everyone.

But Christians? Imams always say we have to be all respectful to Christians and Christianity since they are people of the book and we revere Jesus.
Bur clearly Christians don't have any such moral codes.


While i dont think such an accusation is racist, because it isnt, it is kind of hypocritical coming from judeo-chrisitan tradition since it has the same roots. Not only that, but all three religions come from the desert, NOT from europe, yet somehow there is an assumption that judeo christian tradition is highly european. Maybe today, All the strife and reformations and what not did some good, created stability since the evolution has gone its course. The Wahhabi movement is the ugly reaction a body is taking when it is trying to reject something that is good for it(modernization) so were seeiing all the swelling and rashes that are coming out. But right now, its just symptomatic. Your Shabir allys and Jeffery langs are the future of islam.


Nothing wrong with wahabism, i train MMA with a good friend who is a wahabi, i just dont agree with his theology.
He was well into his 50s and got wood seeing a child playing with her dollies.
How was he not a paedo?

Whaen you or any other God botherer has answered that to my satisfaction we can go onto the subject of the assassinations he orderd and how they fit in a moralistic theology.

AAAhmed46
21st March 10, 03:36 AM
He was also a statesman, and if she was playing with her dollies, then she would have been a toddler when she was betrothed....bethrothed to another man who was going to marry her. If he was such a deviant, what are teh chances of two deviants betrothed to marry the same girl, especailly if she was so damn young(two at that point...if she was 9) It inst all uncommon for adulthood to be measured by puberty back then, especially when you life in a time when you drop dead at 30 years of life(mohammed outlived all his children but one, who died at the age of 29)
Also, that hadith described her playing with dolls yes. But guess what? My 23 year old cousins still collect dolls. My mom buys teddys.
Despite the hadith, there is a descrepency in the time line. According to when she was born in comparison to the migration, she should have been 14 when they married. (one reason why i never take hadith for face value) The basis for the marriage was her reputation for memory, he basically needed a girl who he could teach to be a female scholar/leader, but who would not drop dead. He wanted kids too, any woman older woudl be unwise due to mortality. Most of his other wieves(all from different tribes) were middle aged or elderly. If he had a fetish for kids, then why didnt he go for younger woman? Why were most of his wives elderly? Yes they were political marriages, but he had enough power and influence to pick a younger woman, lots of pre-pubescent girls surely. But no, he picked older woman.

Today, childhood extends until were roughly 18 years old, because of education required for living. But back then? How much education is needed to boil water and milking goats? It takes skill, but not 18 years of schooling five times a week all day. Not like today.
Today, you really WOULD be taking advantage of someone who was going through puberty.
But back then? THey probably knew as mucha s you did, plus the fact that you probably would be DEAD, so your gonna be roughly the same age anyway(mohammed would be considered a fairly old man way back when)

Now lets look at the whole assisination thing. THe quran says pretty clearly in the war versus: You fight only if they are trying to kill you or wipe you out. He originally was just a preacher, until they basically stripped away all rights to the point where killing a muslim woudl mean absolutly no legal ramifications. They they got expelled and starved. Khadija died from that ordeal. Then finally an order to kill muslims on sight.

They were fighting against genocide.Which turned mohammed from preacher to politician and general. What else would he have done? It isnt like he targetted woman and children. Its not like he said (Quatation marks) oooh looky, there is a terrorist hiding in that building full of woman and children. Lets blow it up! (quotation marks) the military concept of deliberate bug splatter is forbidden in islam(i didnt craete the term bug splatter, it is an american one)
Christ and christians faced oppresson, but not outright genocide and total war. Christ was specifically targetted, his followers were targetted afterward. But guess what? Your religion allows for defensive war as well.

Look man, im not trying to convert anyone, or even convince them to be a thiest.

If my arguments have not convinced you, fine. I Understand why, you were raised and educated in this culture here, as was I.


But i find Islam is often treated in a totally different manner then other religions over issues that ordinarily would not be issues.(no the aisha thing isnt one of them i agree, but the assination one is something that shouldnt be an issue)



Oh and trust me dude, dont rely on some of these anti-islamic websites for your info. Tariq Ali is a good objective athiest critic of islam.

Bernard lewis is a far more right wing critic of islam and is often cited on the anti-islamic sites, although i wonder if they realize that in context of his writing he actually is very complementary.
He thought Mohammed was a highly moral general.

Tyrsmann
21st March 10, 03:43 AM
You know one thing I've find very irksome with many who follow the Abrahamnic Faiths is that they often don't see how different the perception of deities from religion to religion can be. I've also found this aswell with a few Atheists I've encountered, Not a huge number mind you but enough to make me wonder if most folks raised in America don't generally think very far outside the Judeo-Christian view of what makes something a deity.

EDIT: Just to be fair it's been my experience that many Neo-Pagans stick to something pretty close to the description of Yahveh aswell.

Of courses as always with such your milage may vary.

AAAhmed46
21st March 10, 03:47 AM
I find there are vast differences on how god is veiwed even between Jew and christian, and muslim.

Hinduism is GROSSLY misunderstood by...well everyone.

More so with daoists.

Same with Buddhism.

Many atheists along with the religious seem to grow from a judeo-christian tradition, and somehow paint all religion like this. Well they are wrong. Now if the athiest comes from anotehr background...well then that is different.

What culture produced the athiest?


If your looking for enlightened muslims, your looking in the WROOONG site.

Lebell
21st March 10, 06:17 AM
Im surprised this is a question for you lebell, as a gnostic christian, surely christianity teaches why god does not make the world perfect?

you're surprised cos you didnt understand my remark.
my remark was about a more theological matter: the rasul-prophet-emmisary of Allah came at a point under the influence of the shaitan.
right?
That doesnt make sense.
The whole process of the writing of the quran was under supervision of Allah but at some point he wasnt paying attention or something and let the devil slip words in Muhammads head?
It doesnt make sense.

Im not saying the whole quran, i was specifically referring to the 'devils verses'.
theologically seen this doesnt make sense.

Vieux Normand
21st March 10, 09:19 AM
The whole process of the writing of the quran was under supervision of Allah but at some point he wasnt paying attention or something and let the devil slip words in Muhammads head? It doesn't make sense.

My fave story re: kraanic perfection revolves around this "stoning-of-adulterers" business. There is an oft-repeated tradition according to which death by stoning was originally prescribed in the kraan for such misdoers. However, the tradition says, the relevant verses were written on pages that were eaten by a sheep and therefore lost.

This is the same kraan that says: "Nothing vain can approach this most perfect book from before or behind".

One supposes the sheep came at it sideways...

TheMightyMcClaw
21st March 10, 09:52 AM
Yes there is a difference. One is waaaay higher in volume.

But then, you got a guy who just had his home, family and nation destroyed in a tornado hurricane, then he rebuilds his house, his nation, and lives happily.

Or he can get angry, and mope and become bitter and hateful.


Oh crap, how can children be killed? how can god kill children?

Well one, everything dies, we know that.

number 2, if children were immortal until...i don't know, the age of 25(what measures when someone ceases to become a child and is not an adult? Puberty?) The need for parents...where would that go?
When our parents fuss, when our parents try to protect us and worry about us,we learn from that whether we like it or not.

Now also, if children are immortal until they are...whenever they stop being innocent or whatever(25?)
THey will become accostommed to living a lifestyle where you can get hit by a truck and survive.

The moment they lose their immortality (how will they know?) they may not be able to adapt to a lifestyle of mortality.


The very POSSIBLITY of children, and families, and wives and homes being destroyed makes us value homes...makes us value children, makes us value our wives and our homes. If all of these were permanent, alot of us would take it all for granted.

So yes.....there is a difference between having to study for a test, vs a guy who loses his home. THe difference is the intensity of the stress.

And i bet, the stress of the POSSIBLITY that he could lose everything may make him value the wife, the home, the children more.

"Cattle die, kindred die,
Every man is mortal.
But I know one thing that never dies:
The glory of the great dead."
~Odin

But seriously, no. The idea that we only value things - or shit, even value them more than we would otherwise - because we have a chance of having all of our loved ones ripped away from us by the callous deity who rules this world - is nonsense.
By that virtue, in heaven - or any other sort of immortal afterlife - do those living therein value nothing, because they have nothing to lose?

AAAhmed46
21st March 10, 04:23 PM
you're surprised cos you didnt understand my remark.
my remark was about a more theological matter: the rasul-prophet-emmisary of Allah came at a point under the influence of the shaitan.
right?
That doesnt make sense.
The whole process of the writing of the quran was under supervision of Allah but at some point he wasnt paying attention or something and let the devil slip words in Muhammads head?
It doesnt make sense.

Im not saying the whole quran, i was specifically referring to the 'devils verses'.
theologically seen this doesnt make sense.

I already dont trust hadith, even bukhari and sahih muslim.

But the so called satanic versus hadith come from an even more less reliable source.

You have Phds in islamic study and history who give sahih muslim and bukhari a 50/50 view of reliablity.

Then you have a source given a lot less credibility hen those two, and lots of Islamic studies professors have even MORE disdain for those hadith collections.

Then we have your random guy who hates the two most authentic but seems to love to cherry pick out of even less relieble sources and parade it as fact(to the disdain of many of their colleagues.

Basically why i view this whole satanic versus thing with a bit of disdain, stinks of infighting within acadamia. Was a non-issue for most of the 1400 years.

AAAhmed46
21st March 10, 04:27 PM
My fave story re: kraanic perfection revolves around this "stoning-of-adulterers" business. There is an oft-repeated tradition according to which death by stoning was originally prescribed in the kraan for such misdoers. However, the tradition says, the relevant verses were written on pages that were eaten by a sheep and therefore lost.

This is the same kraan that says: "Nothing vain can approach this most perfect book from before or behind".

One supposes the sheep came at it sideways...

I am not a shiite, but even they do not believe in that.

That whole story was meant to be something to knock aisha downa peg, not an actual implication that the book was changed. What is the moral of the story? THat Aisha sucks, thats why it is spread. Shiite do not believe that the quran lost ten versus, that is only something sunnis spread amongst teachother to convince themselves of their own superiority over the shiite, real or imagined.

Remember, there were a shit load of hafiz, and more then one copy of the book.

AAAhmed46
21st March 10, 04:48 PM
"Cattle die, kindred die,
Every man is mortal.
But I know one thing that never dies:
The glory of the great dead."
~Odin

But seriously, no. The idea that we only value things - or shit, even value them more than we would otherwise - because we have a chance of having all of our loved ones ripped away from us by the callous deity who rules this world - is nonsense.
By that virtue, in heaven - or any other sort of immortal afterlife - do those living therein value nothing, because they have nothing to lose?

More to it then that, that only only the last part of my rant. How is it nonesense? Even if it may not apply to you, it is a large part of our human nature.

The first part talks about how our existence and emotions are basically tied to our mortality.

We have all read books or stories about characters who are immortal an unkillable. But the type of wisdom they would acquire after living so many years....i have never seen a story properly protray it, because no one can perceive such an existence.

Now, you said there is a difference between a test and losing your whole family. But tell me what is the difference other then sheer volume of stress?

The only reason we acknowledge the thought of (Quotation marks) oh crap i have to study for a test(quotation marks) to be a minor stress is because life is filled with shit so much worse.

If our family can never suddenly be crushed, but we do have to study for tests...taht may be the most dreaded thing we have to do. To pass or fail for a test may seem horrible.
Because we got few things to compare it to in terms of discomfort. And you may look up and say (quatation marks) why god, why do you inflict this suffering on me!!!(quatation marks)

On the other hand, you see a dude who gets his whole family destroyed, and you say (quatation marks) god damn, i am lucky!!!(quatation marks)

Now why is THIS spectrum of suffering inflicted upon us? I have no idea. But we deem small stresses small because we can compare them to things that are far worse.

And yes, something not being infinite makes us value it more. Just look around you, talk to people. Kids born with a big screen t.v. thinks all tvs are like that, the thing gets busted, then they have a shitty T.V. as a replacement. Suddenly he realizes how awesome that big screen T.V. was.

Now let us look at a more true story. A man with a lovely, kind, caring wife. But he is a dick. Comes home from work, and cheats on her, treats her like crap. Not surprising, sexy super nice wife cannot take it anymore and leaves. Suddenly he realizes what an idiot he has been, but hey, too late. (Quotation marks) why jebusss why!!!(quatation marks)
But hey, now he learned something right? He re-marries and treats his next love with great care and shows great loyalty.

Another dude gets his whole house and family crushed. He probably is in horrible, horrible pain. But then he eather dies of stress and sorrow, or becomes far more compassionate. He may even build another wife, and cherish them. All things die, and all things will be broken(samurai showdown)


It IS a real phenomenon of human nature, valueing things and people when we realize the possibility we may have to live without them.


Even with these reasons, you may view god or spagetti monster to be highly callous. But then, your looking at this based on the fact there is no afterlife, no reunion in an afterlife. From the perspective of an afterlife, it changes things, because it is suddenly less callous.
You and me, may still feel the act of crushing an entire family by a spegetti monster to be callous, and heaven being a concept that is not very re-assuring, because we are not SURE it even exists. For all we know, they are seeing the void, oblivion.
But (assuming he exists) from the perspective of god, where he is outside of the realm of matter and reality, to such a being(assuming it exists) the concept of heaven and hell are not possibilities, they are concrete concepts. From that perpsective, the crushing of a whole family is less horrible because of where they may end up.


I doubt ill suddenly turn you into a theist, but at least maybe i can make you understand how thiests reconcile suffering a bit better.

Adouglasmhor
22nd March 10, 02:02 AM
You know one thing I've find very irksome with many who follow the Abrahamnic Faiths is that they often don't see how different the perception of deities from religion to religion can be. I've also found this aswell with a few Atheists I've encountered, Not a huge number mind you but enough to make me wonder if most folks raised in America don't generally think very far outside the Judeo-Christian view of what makes something a deity.

EDIT: Just to be fair it's been my experience that many Neo-Pagans stick to something pretty close to the description of Yahveh aswell.

Of courses as always with such your milage may vary.

I can spot Catholic and Protestant neo pagans and Buddhists all the time.

Lebell
22nd March 10, 06:46 AM
I already dont trust hadith, even bukhari and sahih muslim.

But the so called satanic versus hadith come from an even more less reliable source.

You have Phds in islamic study and history who give sahih muslim and bukhari a 50/50 view of reliablity.

Then you have a source given a lot less credibility hen those two, and lots of Islamic studies professors have even MORE disdain for those hadith collections.

Then we have your random guy who hates the two most authentic but seems to love to cherry pick out of even less relieble sources and parade it as fact(to the disdain of many of their colleagues.

Basically why i view this whole satanic versus thing with a bit of disdain, stinks of infighting within acadamia. Was a non-issue for most of the 1400 years.

no it was not a non issue.
it was ignored, like all religions do btw.
They ignore the problematic parts and cherrypick themselves.
same with covering up the chickzors.
thats alledgedly said by the prophet in a hadith.
so why not take that one not serious either?

AAAhmed46
22nd March 10, 11:44 AM
no it was not a non issue.
it was ignored, like all religions do btw.
They ignore the problematic parts and cherrypick themselves.
same with covering up the chickzors.
thats alledgedly said by the prophet in a hadith.
so why not take that one not serious either?

Because there is no way to verify the hadith at all. All that is left for it is speculation. It COULD be true, it COULD have been simply ignored by historians. But we have no way to know for sure.


Atleast for things in some of the more authentic hadith like bukhari and muslim there is some room and methodology to claim some legitamacy to them, as they have a methodology to them, flawed as it may be.



Let me put it to you this way: Satanic/evil corruption of islam as seen as gnostic views of the OT, can be argued for islam(whether muslims admit it or not) but i see it more so in hadith...throughout all collections. Just as in christian history most horrific B.S. done in the name of god came from the O.T. i see the same thing with islam with hadith. Hell half the horrid shit seen in the muslim world with religious justification is almost alway drawn from hadith(to be fair, alot of it is taken out of context, but still....)

Lebell
22nd March 10, 05:22 PM
Because there is no way to verify the hadith at all. All that is left for it is speculation. It COULD be true, it COULD have been simply ignored by historians. But we have no way to know for sure.


Atleast for things in some of the more authentic hadith like bukhari and muslim there is some room and methodology to claim some legitamacy to them, as they have a methodology to them, flawed as it may be.



Let me put it to you this way: Satanic/evil corruption of islam as seen as gnostic views of the OT, can be argued for islam(whether muslims admit it or not) but i see it more so in hadith...throughout all collections. Just as in christian history most horrific B.S. done in the name of god came from the O.T. i see the same thing with islam with hadith. Hell half the horrid shit seen in the muslim world with religious justification is almost alway drawn from hadith(to be fair, alot of it is taken out of context, but still....)

hadith, also canonical quran and the shari'a.
they have some pretty rough deals.
gnostic approach in short: OT God is a meanie, then Jesus came as Saviour and pointed out the true path which is introvert, and tolerant, then the old meanie God came with another prophet to get his shit back on track.

In a more intreaging way you could see it as the human psyche, the need for a firm hand and one dimensional explanations for things so they can feel as if they're in control of their lives.

TheMightyMcClaw
22nd March 10, 07:14 PM
Now, you said there is a difference between a test and losing your whole family. But tell me what is the difference other then sheer volume of stress?


Because when I have a final coming up, I can study and get a good nights sleep and prepare for that final. I can do something about. Unless it's exceptionally atrocious, It's ultimately up to me and my efforts whether the result of that final is a positive impact (ie, I pass it) or negative (I fail it).
When a tsunami/hurricane/janjaweed kills my family, there is no amount of studying and preparation that will bring them back from life. When God is hurling disasters at you, the negative impact is pretty much inescapable. That seems to be moral of stories like the Oedipus Cycle and the Book of Job; no matter what you do, no matter how hard you try, no matter how good of a life you lead, Apollo/God will still fuck up your life for no reason.

Lebell
23rd March 10, 05:02 AM
Because when I have a final coming up, I can study and get a good nights sleep and prepare for that final. I can do something about. Unless it's exceptionally atrocious, It's ultimately up to me and my efforts whether the result of that final is a positive impact (ie, I pass it) or negative (I fail it).
When a tsunami/hurricane/janjaweed kills my family, there is no amount of studying and preparation that will bring them back from life. When God is hurling disasters at you, the negative impact is pretty much inescapable. That seems to be moral of stories like the Oedipus Cycle and the Book of Job; no matter what you do, no matter how hard you try, no matter how good of a life you lead, Apollo/God will still fuck up your life for no reason.

Then you don't get it.
The moral of that story could be how life is about letting go.
Letting go of a false sense of control.
That doesnt mean just sitting on your ass and hoping that Allah will reform healthcare or fix the potholes in your roads, you still gotta do your stuff.
Jesus or Buddha wont do your homework for you, well maybe Jesus would if you asked him real nicely, he's pretty soft.
Thing is, by doing your bit and obey the laws of God you'll get where you need to be.

Thats the main principle.
You can not bargain with the Allmighty: i'l do this and that and you'll let my wife survive the cancer.
oh she died:' SCREW YOU THERE IS NO GOD!'

being a 'perfect believer' does not insure you against horrible things hapening in life.

AAAhmed46
24th March 10, 12:37 PM
Because when I have a final coming up, I can study and get a good nights sleep and prepare for that final. I can do something about. Unless it's exceptionally atrocious, It's ultimately up to me and my efforts whether the result of that final is a positive impact (ie, I pass it) or negative (I fail it).
When a tsunami/hurricane/janjaweed kills my family, there is no amount of studying and preparation that will bring them back from life. When God is hurling disasters at you, the negative impact is pretty much inescapable. That seems to be moral of stories like the Oedipus Cycle and the Book of Job; no matter what you do, no matter how hard you try, no matter how good of a life you lead, Apollo/God will still fuck up your life for no reason.

Natural disasters are more or less natural phenomenon. I believe science and nature to be a study of how god works. Including evolution.

If we could do something about every stress in life like studying for a test, you can prepare your hope to disasters, like a test.

It seems this discussion is always comes back to dying and pain.

What kind of world woudl it be if we lived forever, how far would learning and evolution of the self go with immortality? Suddenly, secular morality would not matter near as much, other then rape maybe. You cant really hurt anyone, you cant kill them. THe only way you could hurt someone is to make them pleasure you when they dont want to.
But then, that would be real evil too wouldnt it? And then, someone would then say "DAMN YOU GODD!!! HOW CAN YOU LET ME BE RAPED"

Okay, so then god makes it no one can get raped. You live forever now, do not feel pain, and cannot have anything done against you will.

But to be unable to feel pain or have anything done against yoru will. Because suddenly, MMA becomes USELESS and you cannot have fun doing it, because the basis of the art is to do something to someone else against their will(unless they want to have an arm hyper extended or get punched in the face, they have to let them) any competition.

There is no way to fail, because failure is against your will(unless you want to ) but then...where is the challenge? The fun? The zest in life? That is gone, there is no real choice, everything is stuck in one way and you cannot do nothin to stop it.

Then the complaint will be "MY FREEDOM OF CHOICE HAS BEEN LIMITED!!!!"
Now your then left with "but hey you have choice, just not this one!"

"ITS NOT ENOUGH!!!! IF THERE WAS A GOD OR HE WAS JUST!!!I WOULD HAVE MORE CHOICE!!!"

Then imagine a world with more choice again...

What happens? It goes in a circle, again and again and again.


Maybe there is no god. Really, hey, i can be open to it.

But human suffering as a claim to be proof against god? How? We cant even imagine a life without suffering that is not horribly horribly horribly bland. Everytime we do, the thought is often of people being idle all the time.

You can argue that a perfect world woudl be where you dont have to, where you are constantly walking around with a feeling of euphoria. But then.... i guess the perfect world is an unending supply of weed.