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elipson
13th February 10, 10:43 PM
The Olympics have their own thread, so this one will be focused on the politics and other shenanigans going on in Vancouver.

The following is a play-by-play with pictures of a mini-riot this morning.

http://www.shotinvancouver.com/vancouver/olympics/vancouver-olympics-protests-turn-violent-and-destructive-multiple-arrests-made/

Without seeing video, the pictures show the cops being suprisingly restrained. No pepper-spray, no tear gas, no obvious baton smashing. Even when a few of the cops seem to be surrounded nothing gets too extreme.

My brother was supposedly here for this event, but I haven't heard the full story from him yet.

These guys piss me off for three main reasons.

A) They are wearing masks. If they really felt their cause was so righteous, why are they wearing masks? If you are going to commit a crime in order to draw attention to a problem, then suck it up and accept the risk of getting arrested. It'll make you a quasi-martyr and put a face to your movement, making it more powerful. Most of the guys are chicken shit cowards who just want to smash things without getting in trouble.

B) These guys aren't protesting because they are outraged by something; they are leaching onto a legitimate protest movement to give their random acts of violence some kind of social justification.

C) It's the Olympics! Fuck off and let everyone have a good time! They had their time to protest in the lead up to the event, they still have their ability to do so now, but fuck off with the trying to wreck everyone elses fun. Part of democracy is accepting when you LOSE bcause the majority doesn't give a shit about your cause.


And one more thing. FUCK VANOC (Vancouver Olympic Committee).

Steve
13th February 10, 11:19 PM
Yup.

Neildo
13th February 10, 11:21 PM
word. these idiots are several years too late to make a difference. now they're just whinging. suck it up, pussies!

DJR
13th February 10, 11:36 PM
These guys piss me off for three main reasons.

A) They are wearing masks. If they really felt their cause was so righteous, why are they wearing masks? If you are going to commit a crime in order to draw attention to a problem, then suck it up and accept the risk of getting arrested.

I've interacted with people from this general crowd in the past, and they've deluded themselves into thinking they're on the edge of 'teh revolution.' I don't think realistic strategies for winning average people over even crosses their minds - a lot of them really think that people are about to rise up and 'smash the state.' They wear masks because they more or less think of themselves as 'revolutionaries'

Most of them are pretty young - late teens to early 20s, and spend 99% of their time hanging around with people who think, dress and act exactly the same as they do. It's a really insular little subculture.


B) These guys aren't protesting because they are outraged by something; they are leaching onto a legitimate protest movement to give their random acts of violence some kind of social justification.

I suspect that's ultimately the case with a lot of them, but most of them don't have enough insight to even understand their own motivations. A lot of them are indeed very angry people, but often because of their own personal/psychological baggage rather than any coherent politics.


C) It's the Olympics! Fuck off and let everyone have a good time! They had their time to protest in the lead up to the event, they still have their ability to do so now

Yeah, I think the Olympics are a big waste of money that's going to leave the province with a big economic hangover, but there's really fuck all anyone can do about that at this point. People may as well get as much fun out of it as possible...

socratic
14th February 10, 05:17 AM
I told you this would happen if they didn't let Ice-hockey into the Olympics.

Cullion
14th February 10, 07:24 AM
I'll be blunt, I'd like to see shopkeepers opening fire on these overpriviledged little cunts.

Marrt
14th February 10, 09:18 AM
How can you not be supportive of those who would seek to resolve poverty and prevent the corporate machine from... hey waitaminute...

http://www.shotinvancouver.com/vancouver/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/violent-olympics-protest-georgia-st-27.jpg
http://www.shotinvancouver.com/vancouver/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/violent-olympics-protest-georgia-st-27.jpg
hellooooooooooo huge boobs.... howzabout you come over and let me oppress you a little

GuiltySpark
14th February 10, 01:15 PM
I'm actually embarrassed at Canada's behavior over the olympics. The shit I'm hearing out of Vancouver makes it seem more like China than Canada.

One protest I'm sick of though is all that NO OLYMPICS ON STOLEN LAND bullshit.

Hey Native Americans, guess what... You're never getting your land back.
There I said it.
It was stolen a long time ago and the government just isn't going to give it back.
Ever. There, now stop protesting and work on stopping the corruption substance abuse and violence plaguing your people.

I agree about the no masks. Proud owhat you believe in? Don't hide.

elipson
14th February 10, 01:20 PM
My borther posted pics of the "pigs" and "storm troopers" on his facebook page. I mentioned on his profile that what happened during that event was one of the pussiest police reactions I've ever seen, considering protesters were surrounding and jumping on the backs of cops. Lucky they didn't get shot.

HappyOldGuy
14th February 10, 01:29 PM
I'll be blunt, I'd like to see shopkeepers opening fire on these overpriviledged little cunts.

That's excessive.

The cops should hold them down while the shopkeepers gave them a spanking.

On television.

DJR
14th February 10, 01:39 PM
One protest I'm sick of though is all that NO OLYMPICS ON STOLEN LAND bullshit.

Almost all the protestors yesterday were white kids using that as an excuse to feel self righteous. The tribes whose land the Olympics are on are all on board with the games and happy to have the extra jobs and money in their communities. There are some natives who are unhappy with the games, but nowhere close to a majority.

There is a legitimate legal issue in BC re: the lack of proper treaties in this province, but no one sane thinks that 1st nations will be getting vast tracks of land back. It wil just involve coming up with legal agreements & compensation packages like in the Nisgaa treaty a few years ago.

Lights Out
14th February 10, 02:10 PM
What were they protesting against exactly?

Steve
14th February 10, 02:29 PM
Money, duh.

DJR
14th February 10, 02:30 PM
What were they protesting against exactly?

A hodge-podge of issues: native land claims; lack of government efforts to deal with serious poverty in Vancouver's downtown eastside; waste of public money on Olympics construction projects, etc. The demo yesterday was apparently some kind of generalized protest against 'capitalism & colonialism.' Needless to say, it wasn't particulary effective in getting any sort of message across.

elipson
14th February 10, 02:34 PM
http://photos-b.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/hs274.ash1/20149_669108663921_21003868_41651951_7358093_n.jpg
I lol'd at this image.


All arrested protesters were released by 8pm. Life sure is hard as a protester in Canada.

Lights Out
14th February 10, 02:52 PM
A hodge-podge of issues: native land claims; lack of government efforts to deal with serious poverty in Vancouver's downtown eastside; waste of public money on Olympics construction projects, etc. The demo yesterday was apparently some kind of generalized protest against 'capitalism & colonialism.' Needless to say, it wasn't particulary effective in getting any sort of message across.

So, basically, protesting against everything.

Meh, the rage of the youth.

elipson
14th February 10, 02:56 PM
http://rabble.ca/blogs/bloggers/council-canadians/2010/02/2010-heart-attack-vancouver-olympics-opening-day

I'm really impressed with the police over this so far. Very restrained and well planned.

So far....

GuiltySpark
14th February 10, 03:05 PM
Ahh Rabble. I saw a post there where someone blamed that 21 year olds death on "the great creator sending the white settlers a message to get off native land" lol

DJR
14th February 10, 03:40 PM
Ahh Rabble. I saw a post there where someone blamed that 21 year olds death on "the great creator sending the white settlers a message to get off native land" lol
Maybe if by 'Great Creator' they mean whoever designed the sliding track, and by 'white settlers' 'athletes from the Caucuses whose people have played no part whasoever in the settlement of North America.' Utter lunacy....

Kein Haar
14th February 10, 03:51 PM
I'm becoming a great fan of the argument of Indians not understanding these various treaties, and being totally duped.

Most common claim of ignorance is that Indians didn't understand the concept of privately owned property.

Well, the whiteman did this basic process billions of times:

Whiteman: "Hay guyz, what's up with this land?"
Indians: "Idk."
"We want it."
"K..well..."
"We'll give you beads for it."
"K."

Indians: "Oic what you did there. We don't get to use that land at all anymore! I thought.... oh fuck it. "

After the first couple dozen times that happened, do you think they'd "get" what private property means?

Maybe it was greed? Maybe these Indians willingly took compensation for land they never paid for to begin with. Maybe it sounded pretty fucking sweet. No capital gains tax and stuff. Did greed exist amongst first nation peoples?

Cullion
14th February 10, 04:43 PM
After the first couple dozen times that happened, do you think they'd "get" what private property means?

TLH doesn't get it, why should an illiterate tribesman get it ?

Kein Haar
14th February 10, 05:21 PM
Because he accepted and retained property (beads) to the exclusion of other people. For that he ceded rights to Manhattan et al.

See, the indian KEPT the beads, never to return them. This was in exchange for ceding rights to Manhattan which said Indian would never again lay any sort of claim to.

See, when the Indian kept the beads, he understood that the whiteman couldn't just come back and take them. They belonged to him now.

Cullion
14th February 10, 05:23 PM
TLH feels the same way about his wages, but the place he works at is a form of slavery.

Kein Haar
14th February 10, 05:32 PM
Slavery is a whole other ball of wax.

Cullion
14th February 10, 05:38 PM
My point is, literate people raised in our society, where all the basics have been explained from a young age still either fail or refuse to understand the concept of property rights, so it doesn't surprise me that people from a nomadic or semi-nomadic/pastoral tribe would have trouble with the concept of land ownership.

Kein Haar
14th February 10, 05:42 PM
Did they not get the function of palisade walls either?

I guess the monolith never appeared to spark the idea to distinguish: "Was everyone's. Now the whiteman's. In particular, I'm not allowed there anymore."

I don't like you dragging down these prairie niggers to the level of TLH. Not one bit.

HappyOldGuy
14th February 10, 05:46 PM
I'm becoming a great fan of the argument of Indians not understanding these various treaties, and being totally duped.

In most of the cases they understood pretty well what they were trading for, it was "take this other land for this land or get shot". Google trail of tears.

Kein Haar
14th February 10, 05:52 PM
We can be honest. We can. Srs.

Greed existed amongst the red men. I've never once read anything which even eluded to that in any "social studies" book. Ever. They were peaceful communists. Period. And they didn't understand property rights until it was too late. It took them like 400 years to understand property rights.

socratic
14th February 10, 06:02 PM
I wouldn't believe for a second that greed DIDN'T exist in tribalist 'communist' societies, but I wonder what kind of outlet it had.

socratic
14th February 10, 06:03 PM
http://photos-b.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/hs274.ash1/20149_669108663921_21003868_41651951_7358093_n.jpg
I lol'd at this image.

I love the look on the guy on the right. "Woah, okay, uh... I change my mind. I'm going to go home now peacefully? Sorry to have disturbed you."

Ajamil
14th February 10, 06:41 PM
Read further than High School social studies books. The North American tribes were constantly warring with each other. They understood territory and settlement just fine. If anything you might make a case for their cultures being more straightforward, more legacy-based. I don't know how common it was to have an enemy approach with smiles and gifts and lies.

Edit: I imagine the Long Island beads thing being a lost in translation error. It probably sounded to the Indians like the Europeans were paying them as a thanks for allowing them to live on Indian land. Once the misunderstanding was "cleared up" it became a matter of fortified positions, and better tech.

socratic
14th February 10, 07:32 PM
Maybe they believed the land was being rented from them rather than being bought outright, or maybe only a stake in the land or something? Like, "Okay, you can have it this time, we'll have it this time, time-share motherfuckers" or something?

I'd imagine the language barrier would have made a mockery out of any honest attempt at treaty-making.

Ajamil
14th February 10, 07:51 PM
What Europeans said: This is beautiful land. I will give you this handful of beads for it.

What Indians herd: Your land is beautiful. As a show of our awe in your land, we are giving you these beads.

HappyOldGuy
14th February 10, 09:10 PM
I wouldn't believe for a second that greed DIDN'T exist in tribalist 'communist' societies, but I wonder what kind of outlet it had.

chix.

bob
14th February 10, 09:39 PM
What Europeans said: This is beautiful land. I will give you this handful of beads for it.

What Indians herd: Your land is beautiful. As a show of our awe in your land, we are giving you these beads.

The most striking example of being won over by a handful of beads until NOB's wife presented him with her dowry.

Vieux Normand
14th February 10, 10:00 PM
Let's continue the story:

"Look, you're not having any kids, there are jobs you don't want to do anymore (including certain business start-ups), and you're getting long-in-the-tooth. Just saying, whitey, that we won't insult you with a handful of beads now that we've all arrived and started teeming. How're things at the old-folks' home my cousin owns?"

GuiltySpark
15th February 10, 03:08 AM
Either way there is a simple truth.

First Nations peoples = NOT getting their disputed land back.

They need to get over it, abolish the Indian act- stop band council members from getting 99% of the lewt and get with the year 2010.

These guys are stomping their feet yelling GET OFF OUR STOLEN LAND EH! mean while the rest of the world is laughing saying ya hows that working for ya?

Ajamil
15th February 10, 03:52 AM
How long before China can say that to Tibet? And would it be the Palestinians saying that to teh jewz, or would it be the other way around now? How long till Europe can start yelling "get off our land!" to teh Muzzies?

KO'd N DOA
15th February 10, 01:50 PM
In Vancouver some of the Prime Real Estate is owned by natives, but under 100 year leases to Universities and home owners. This will be like Hong Kong being turned back.

China - Lease over UK go home.
UK - Okay, but what this vast wealth we have created.
China - Go home. Mao tricked you into building this town.
HK - Lets move to Vancouver - this will never happen in Canada.
Natives - Git off R lands eh. Lease is up.

OZZ
16th February 10, 04:26 PM
I actually have a copy of the trade agreement between the Six Nations natives( I believe, it may have been the Oneida..) and the Europeans for the chunk of land where my city, London, Ont. is located.
I can't remember everything on there, but among the items going the natives way were things like blankets, fish hooks, rifles, steel pots etc.

As for these losers in Vancouver who decided to smash windows downtown to 'protest' the games - it has nothing to do with protest for the majority of these fuckers, its about having an excuse to cause shit and maybe steal a few items and get away with it.
I know this is obvious , but I still want to reiterate because I find it really annoying. I hope the cops give those punks the garbage bag treatment ..fucking idiots.

OZZ
16th February 10, 04:40 PM
We can be honest. We can. Srs.

Greed existed amongst the red men. I've never once read anything which even eluded to that in any "social studies" book. Ever. They were peaceful communists. Period. And they didn't understand property rights until it was too late. It took them like 400 years to understand property rights.

Native tribes knew how to play off European traders against one another from their earliest interactions with them - and any well educated person knows this. They knew how to and they did so with regularity.
They may not have understood 'property rights', but they could drive a hard bargain as well as any Frenchmen, Brit or Dutchmen.

KO'd N DOA
16th February 10, 04:51 PM
I actually have a copy of the trade agreement between the Six Nations natives( I believe, it may have been the Oneida..) and the Europeans for the chunk of land where my city, London, Ont. is located.
I can't remember everything on there, but among the items going the natives way were things like blankets, fish hooks, rifles, steel pots etc.


Could you look up the section where it says they can kick them out of Ipperwash?

(*don't bother - it is not there, it is a case where they really did kick them off their land)

KO'd N DOA
16th February 10, 04:59 PM
Native tribes knew how to play off European traders against one another from their earliest interactions with them - and any well educated person knows this. They knew how to and they did so with regularity.
They may not have understood 'property rights', but they could drive a hard bargain as well as any Frenchmen, Brit or Dutchmen.

Once traplines were established, and Beaver Pelts revolutionized the way wealth was distributed, like the Dot come industry did centuries later, they damn well knew what property was.