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danno
10th September 09, 09:28 PM
this is possibly a load of shit, but here it goes.

fashion is really about emulation. by wearing clothes similar to someone you admire, you're really trying to take on their visual attributes, in the hope that others will associate you with the person you dress like.

basically, if you can look like someone who is accomplished/important/whatever, people will treat you like you are accomplished/etc.

exhibit a:

billy blanks.
http://www.titletrakk.com/Images/authors/billy-blanks-2-300.jpg

he wears hand wraps because fighters wear hand wraps. the other people in his videos also wear hand wraps because they're emulating the appearance of fighters. firstly they want others to see them as people who are accomplished in combat, secondly the act of wearing them makes them feel like they are fighters. this was the real selling point of tae-bo.

more examples later.

Arhetton
10th September 09, 10:12 PM
hmmm rather than just trying to 'fit in', I think fashion also serves the purpose of 'standing out' or trying to make yourself look as good as possible.

Generally more attractive people receive preferential treatment across a swathe of human activity and the way you dress can make you look more or less attractive.

I agree that you can associate yourself with a certain group or individual by dressing similarly to them.

The suit is a classic example.

Certain items look a bit too 'try hard' in my opinion.

I was out at a club the other night and there was a goth/emo (who knows) wearing a partially transparent cape. It was kind of an indie venue, so I dropped a 'you are the hero that gotham deserves' at the bar and got a laugh out of it.

danno
10th September 09, 11:35 PM
hmmm rather than just trying to 'fit in', I think fashion also serves the purpose of 'standing out' or trying to make yourself look as good as possible.

by emulating someone else you could either stand out or fit in.

for example, when i was in high school i grew longish hair because i was listening to a lot of grunge, jimi hendrix, black sabbath, led zeppelin and so on. i was told to cut my hair (and to stop listening to that music) by my peers almost daily.


Generally more attractive people receive preferential treatment across a swathe of human activity and the way you dress can make you look more or less attractive.

yes, there is more to fashion than my theory covers of course. makeup and clothing can make you look stronger or more feminine. you can visually tweak those things that we find instinctually attractive. but that's different.

here's another example of what i'm talking about: one could also be considered sexy because they dress like a cowboy - but only if the people around them hold cowboys in high esteem.

the person dressing as a cowboy doesn't need to do anything that cowboys traditionally do. but if they appear superficially like a cowboy, others will associate the attributes of your stereotypical cowboy with them.

Harpy
11th September 09, 12:01 AM
danno - how does your theory incorporate people who do not view external attributes (like dress, makeup and accessories) as important or a signifier of one's affiliation (or as you say, emulating a role model)?

danno
11th September 09, 12:11 AM
danno - how does your theory incorporate people who do not view external attributes (like dress, makeup and accessories) as important or a signifier of one's affiliation (or as you say, emulating a role model)?

i'd like to see an example of this. got any pics of people you might consider like that?

i used to think that i didn't. it was only after some self examination that i could admit to myself that i was growing long hair because i was in fact emulating someone i admired. otherwise i pay very little attention to fashion.

which was a bit frustrating when i was doing some illustration recently for a fashion store. i was clueless.

Harpy
11th September 09, 12:23 AM
Illustrations for fashion stores? Wow, sounds like you're doing well.


i used to think that i didn't.
I was going to say that I don't care about fashion.


it was only after some self examination that i could admit to myself that i was growing long hair because i was in fact emulating someone i admired. otherwise i pay very little attention to fashion.

But maybe I need to think about it a little harder.

It's a good theory in general but I think it might apply more strongly to the 10-24 age group.

Steve
11th September 09, 12:29 AM
I just try to look good like Damon. Saves me money on pants, too.

danno
11th September 09, 12:55 AM
trust me, i'm not getting paid what i should for these drawings. they're getting an absolute bargain.


But maybe I need to think about it a little harder.

you might be a little like me.

i'll hazard a guess - at work, instead of copying any individual, you're just wearing what is accepted by those around you as sensible, what a professional woman is supposed to wear. you don't necessarily follow current trends, but you need to communicate to others you work with that you know what you're doing.

there are always the standard things, like they assume that if you're neat and tidy on the outside, you're neat and tidy on the inside. regardless of fashion at the time, this still applies.

but to some degree, you need to look at others who are considered capable in your work and imitate them visually.

Harpy
11th September 09, 12:57 AM
You're correct danno. I definitely know how to blend into any environment and use clothing and other apparel to do so. Your theory works.

Why the h are you doing anything at a bargain price in Sydney? Who is negotiating your contracts danno, don't undersell yourself!

danno
11th September 09, 01:05 AM
it's just how things are going with my current job, the guy i work with generally just does web design and applications. we haven't done an illustration job like this one before, so it's kind of experimental. now we know the time and everything that is involved, so next time we're going to charge them the right amount.

been working for peanuts lately...

Steve
11th September 09, 01:14 AM
fashion is really about emulation. by wearing clothes similar to someone you admire, you're really trying to take on their visual attributes, in the hope that others will associate you with the person you dress like.

Not to rain on your parade, but this has been well known for years. Just that instead of it being an individual person, it has turned into the clique culture that we have today (emo, goth, heshers, preppies, yuppies, metrosexuals, etc etc).

I suppose as we get older we might think about focusing on one person that you know or are at least acquainted with, but I think your example of Billy Blanks also points to people not wanting to be necessarily like him but to be like the group of people that he is emulating as well (yet another clique, just look at the TapOut crowd, for example).

Cullion
11th September 09, 01:21 AM
Danno. You had the temerity to mock me when I was presenting primary sources talking about the efforts of industrialists to influence the education system.

And now I find you using Billy Blanks pictures in a fashion thread.

Who is this poor bitch trying to emulate, according to your theory?

http://www4.pictures.fp.zimbio.com/Milan+Fashion+Week+VERSACE+Catwalk+4xGTxs8UOeal.jp g

You had such potential, too.

Ban Plz.

danno
11th September 09, 01:34 AM
Not to rain on your parade, but this has been well known for years. Just that instead of it being an individual person, it has turned into the clique culture that we have today (emo, goth, heshers, preppies, yuppies, metrosexuals, etc etc).

I suppose as we get older we might think about focusing on one person that you know or are at least acquainted with, but I think your example of Billy Blanks also points to people not wanting to be necessarily like him but to be like the group of people that he is emulating as well (yet another clique, just look at the TapOut crowd, for example).

not to interrupt your mardi gras, but i'm talking about that as well. i don't mean just individuals. it's about transplanting what people associate with others onto yourself.

if my wording seems to change slightly, it's because i haven't written this out or even talked about it before.

my main line is that we emulate the appearance of others - to elicit a reaction from our peers - by associating ourselves visually with a group, individual or archetype whose attributes we admire.

you might be a middle class white boy living in sydney suburbs. but if you dress gangsta, people will think you're gangsta.

you might not do any training or have any fighting ability, but wearing a tapout shirt usually means you'd like others to see you as having similar attributes to an MMA fighter, even if it isn't one fighter in particular.

so you don't have to do great things to for people to think you're great.

Harpy
11th September 09, 01:40 AM
fashion is really about emulation. by wearing clothes similar to someone you admire, you're really trying to take on their visual attributes, in the hope that others will associate you with the person you dress like.


Let's break this down. danno, could you interchange the word 'person' to 'persona'?

I really think there is next to no originality anymore. There are a number of archetypes and the resulting combinations and variations on the theme. That is it.

Cullion
11th September 09, 01:41 AM
you might be a middle class white boy living in sydney suburbs. but if you dress gangsta, people will think you're gangsta.

you might not do any training or have any fighting ability, but wearing a tapout shirt usually means you'd like others to see you as having similar attributes to an MMA fighter, even if it isn't one fighter in particular.

so you don't have to do great things to for people to think you're great.

Who is this man emulating ?

http://www.swotti.com/tmp/swotti/cacheAM9OBIBNYWXSAWFUBW==UGVVCGXLLVBLB3BSZQ==/imgJohn%20Galliano6.jpg

Steve
11th September 09, 01:42 AM
Hey, danno, I wasn't trying to attack you at all. I'm just trying to point out what your OP brought to my mind. If we are on the same page, that's great, I agree.

For fuck's sake, MJS is a parody himself. His threads bring to mind exactly what he looks like because we already know what those kids look like.

Arhetton
11th September 09, 01:43 AM
a raggy doll

danno
11th September 09, 01:58 AM
Hey, danno, I wasn't trying to attack you at all. I'm just trying to point out what your OP brought to my mind. If we are on the same page, that's great, I agree.

For fuck's sake, MJS is a parody himself. His threads bring to mind exactly what he looks like because we already know what those kids look like.

hey man don't worry. i posted this to get criticism. i don't like ideas swimming around my head without fear of getting beaten to death.

i was feigning rage in that response to your post.

danno
11th September 09, 02:01 AM
Danno. You had the temerity to mock me when I was presenting primary sources talking about the efforts of industrialists to influence the education system.

yes faggot, this is your opportunity to mock my theory after i mocked yours. and i'm GLAD.

i'll get to your posts later, gotta run.

Steve
11th September 09, 02:02 AM
hey man don't worry. i posted this to get criticism. i don't like ideas swimming around my head without fear of getting beaten to death.

i was feigning rage in that response to your post.


Cool.

It's interesting to think about the anti-fashion folks too, those that defy the norm for the sake of it. More often than not they look like idiots, but isn't that also a theme in fashion? "Wow, they look ridiculous" but boy howdy, don't they stand out compared to everyone else.

Kiko
11th September 09, 06:22 AM
What about nudists?

bob
11th September 09, 06:35 AM
What about nudists?

Mostly they're trying to emulate this as far as I've seen

http://www.welcometothedoghouse.net/pics/english_bulldog_wallpaper.jpg

or at least parts of their body are

danno
11th September 09, 06:28 PM
Who is this poor bitch trying to emulate, according to your theory?

http://www4.pictures.fp.zimbio.com/Milan+Fashion+Week+VERSACE+Catwalk+4xGTxs8UOeal.jp g

mostly it's about her expression. she is supposed to look aloof, intelligent, focused, dignified. so they're really trying to create a role model here, someone you want to emulate. they want girls to look at that and say "i want to be her".

and you can be her by buying those clothes.

dress like someone who is cool, and you are cool.

danno
11th September 09, 06:40 PM
Who is this man emulating ?

http://www.swotti.com/tmp/swotti/cacheAM9OBIBNYWXSAWFUBW==UGVVCGXLLVBLB3BSZQ==/imgJohn%20Galliano6.jpg

he almost looks like some kind of hippy crossed with a weird medieval squire. the british flag on the shield has a lot of connotations which others will now associate with him. the boots are like a hiker. so he's taking on all those attributes.

he'd obviously like to be seen as some kind of creative, interesting, intelligent person. this one is also about making people curious by visually befuddling them. it creates interest.

EuropIan
11th September 09, 07:08 PM
Danno, do you agree that some articles of clothing accentuate some bodyparts?

Do you also agree that for the most part that stylistic variations can be made within these articles of clothing.

Do you also agree that clothing especially is subject to fads..

danno
11th September 09, 07:11 PM
Danno, do you agree that some articles of clothing accentuate some bodyparts?

Do you also agree that for the most part that stylistic variations can be made within these articles of clothing.

Do you also agree that clothing especially is subject to fads..

of course.

danno
11th September 09, 07:14 PM
could you interchange the word 'person' to 'persona'?

yes, it could be both. for example, the model cullion posted is donning a persona.


I really think there is next to no originality anymore. There are a number of archetypes and the resulting combinations and variations on the theme. That is it.

mostly, but you get the occasional variation and new idea.

EuropIan
11th September 09, 07:15 PM
Then you insert subculture loyalism, and, for a lack of a better word, inbreeding into this mix.

danno
11th September 09, 08:57 PM
basically, yes. there are many smaller details like this.

bob
11th September 09, 10:37 PM
Fashion begins and ends with Star Trek TOS. Unitards (and corsets as needed) for men and miniskirts for women. If I had a unitard that kept me warm in winter and cool in summer, hardly needed washing or drying or ironing and was viewed as acceptable for work and social occasions, indoors and outdoors, I would wear it all the time. And I'd make it look good.

Cullion
12th September 09, 04:29 AM
he almost looks like some kind of hippy crossed with a weird medieval squire. the british flag on the shield has a lot of connotations which others will now associate with him. the boots are like a hiker. so he's taking on all those attributes.

he'd obviously like to be seen as some kind of creative, interesting, intelligent person. this one is also about making people curious by visually befuddling them. it creates interest.

So the model and the fashion designer I posted are not actually emulating anybody ?

danno
12th September 09, 05:03 AM
no, they are.

basically, the model is emulating a stereotype of determination and intelligence. she is imitating what she thinks is a smart and sophisticated expression and manner, without actually having to prove that she is smart. the hope is that others will think she is cool, and try to emulate her sophisticated look by wearing the same clothes.

the designer had a pretty eclectic mix of influences. but the general idea is the same. it's an exploitation of what the clothing connotes.

it's not all so straight up-and-down. lots of little things like cultural feedback loops and augmentation of what we find instinctively sexy are interacting with this. but an ideal, simplified example would be:

cowboys are considered tough by my peers --> i dress like a cowboy --> people think i'm tough.

Cullion
12th September 09, 05:26 AM
If you dressed like a cowboy I'd think you were cruising for a piece of ass.

danno
12th September 09, 07:08 AM
and you'd like that, wouldn't you?

Robot Jesus
12th September 09, 02:21 PM
fashion communicates a lot about who you are, most of it false. only a fool wouldn't take control of this tool.

i used to keep my hair long because I saw most of my peers wearing hip hop clothing and keeping a very short haircut; i wanted to distance myself as far as I could from those mouth breathers. I was seeing the feature not the benefit, the long hair framed my face making me look far fatter then I am. now I keep a slightly longer roman haircut; I don't look like the troglodytes wearing fubu, but I look better then when I was primarily concerned with not looking like them.

MEGA JESUS-SAMA
12th September 09, 04:52 PM
i think all the fat on your face made it look fat

DAYoung
12th September 09, 05:37 PM
Danno, do you distinguish between fashion and style?

Also: LILY STOP LYING - THOSE LEGGINGS YOU WORE AT THE TD WERE ALL ABOUT FASHION.

Cullion
12th September 09, 06:02 PM
Well, perhaps if she'd made more of an effort to wash those mayonaise stains out.

DAYoung
12th September 09, 06:05 PM
Not mayonnaise. Cream. From eclairs.

EuropIan
12th September 09, 06:10 PM
NOt mayonaise

EXTREMONAISE
_70xGUxznYY

OH YEAH!!! PUT THIS SHIT RIGHT IN YOUR GOB YOU COUNTER CULTURAL REBEL!!! NO ONE CAN TELL YOU WHAT TO DO! NOW USE OUR FAUX-MAYO!!

DAYoung
12th September 09, 06:22 PM
ENLIGHTENMENT.

I will now hold up a flower.

EuropIan
12th September 09, 06:33 PM
FUCK YO FLOWER, BITCH! SPRAY SOME OF REBELIOUS GOODNESS ON IT AND STICK IT TO THE MAN!


(This is a tangetial point, of course)

DAYoung
12th September 09, 07:22 PM
Umm.

Buddha.

I win.

danno
12th September 09, 07:23 PM
Danno, do you distinguish between fashion and style?

do you mean trends that come and go as opposed to aesthetics?

EuropIan
12th September 09, 07:35 PM
Umm.

Buddha.

I win.
Don't try to pull that derauslander shit with me..don't be so mayo

DAYoung
12th September 09, 07:50 PM
Don't try to pull that derauslander shit with me..don't be so mayo

Pfft.

DerAuslander would've schooled you three ways to Sunday by now. And then punched you in the face.

I'm trying to help you, Ian.

DAYoung
12th September 09, 07:54 PM
do you mean trends that come and go as opposed to aesthetics?

Yes. And the industries behind the trends.

I'm sure they're intertwined, but I do think it's important to distinguish between aesthetic appreciation and the vicissitudes of fashion.

To my mind, the former isn't simply a matter of emulation.

EuropIan
12th September 09, 07:56 PM
Pfft.

DerAuslander would've schooled you three ways to Sunday by now. And then punched you in the face.

I'm trying to help you, Ian.
But he said I was cool.

Because I almost comprehended a koan..

I still need to be punched in the face proper, so I guess you win.. But not cuz buddha.

EuropIan
12th September 09, 07:58 PM
Yes. And the industries behind the trends.

I'm sure they're intertwined, but I do think it's important to distinguish between aesthetic appreciation and the vicissitudes of fashion.

To my mind, the former isn't simply a matter of emulation.
That was part of my tangetial mayo point.

But you used wordz n' stuff... that's hard

DAYoung
12th September 09, 08:02 PM
Ian, you're funny.

EuropIan
12th September 09, 08:09 PM
in the parsing of that word's definition, I am assuming both apply.

DAYoung
12th September 09, 08:28 PM
Yes.

But keep your parsing to yourself, pervert.

danno
12th September 09, 08:53 PM
To my mind, the former isn't simply a matter of emulation.

that's right, it can't all be summed up as emulation. there's a lot more to it than that.

among other things, aesthetic appreciation and exploration are intertwined with this.

but when we're talking about our appearance and the way much fashion works, emulation is an important factor.

there are things like wearing clothes that suit a specific practical purpose with no attention paid to appearance at all. but this can become fashion as well if the activity the clothes are used for becomes cool. a (crappy) example off the top of my head would be overalls - you might wear them down the street so that people will associate you with someone who has practical skills (like a carpenter).

without using the word "emulation": we wear things that signify attributes we would like to be associated with.

MEGA JESUS-SAMA
12th September 09, 09:27 PM
I think the underlying thesis here is just too cynical. There's a lot of labels who are simply trying to make good looking, forward clothing and whose high price tags don't represent obscene markups but rather the high cost of first world professional labor, limited production runs, and the best textiles mankind has ever seen.

That's not to say that there aren't many brands who just sell crap to people with more money than style, or that there aren't designers who just say, "epaulets are big this year, time to put them on all my clothes!" You just have to learn enough about clothes that you can pick out the crap from the gems.

danno
12th September 09, 09:55 PM
I think the underlying thesis here is just too cynical.

you're right, i am pretty cynical about a lot of fashion and trends. i could probably use examples that are a lot more dignified, paint things in a better light without changing my theory at all, but i couldn't be bothered. otherwise, i'm trying to be objective.

just looked at one of your threads:


I like this Self Edge shirt in white denim, cause blue jeans + blue denim top is not ground I am willing to tread. The diagonal button holes are a neat detail too. I'm not digging the Western shoulders though, they buy too much into that coal miner aesthetic.
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t67/BullshidoTrail/natural_01.jpg

This is from Flat Head. I'm digging this less, the denim doesn't look as slubby as I like, and the detailing is also too heavy on the cowboy/miner thing.
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t67/BullshidoTrail/IMG_0579-1.jpg

i find that pretty interesting.

MEGA JESUS-SAMA
12th September 09, 10:12 PM
That's a bad example because Western shirts are just this side of costume wear.

When you see a guy walking down the street in a leather jacket and 501 jeans do you think he's just doing it to copy Marlon Brando? Personally I'd do it just because it looks cool and fuck some dead guy that dressed the same way.

danno
13th September 09, 12:21 AM
When you see a guy walking down the street in a leather jacket and 501 jeans do you think he's just doing it to copy Marlon Brando? Personally I'd do it just because it looks cool and fuck some dead guy that dressed the same way.

why does it look cool? why was brando cool?

EuropIan
13th September 09, 12:35 AM
He was a rebel without a cause

nihilist
13th September 09, 01:30 AM
NO GODDAMNIT! BILLY WEARS HANDWRAPS CAUSE HE PUNCHES THE EXTREMELY DURABLE BLOWUP DELUXE BILLY BAG™

DAYoung
13th September 09, 01:38 AM
Danno, I reckon you could broaden your terms. Instead of 'emulation', you could speak of 'aspiration', i.e. clothing is an attempt to reach a certain vision of what's beautiful, or good.

This would include emulation, but not be confined to it.

nihilist
13th September 09, 01:48 AM
As long as people have to fit into the social cog, they are obliged to wear the proper gear. (intended)

If you live on a farm or are otherwise self-sustained you can wear whateverthefuck you want.

bob
13th September 09, 01:54 AM
Fashion is about changing what you can easily change about yourself. Fat chicks have an inordinate interest in shoes, haircuts and handbags.

nihilist
13th September 09, 01:56 AM
Apparently you haven't heard of liposuction.

bob
13th September 09, 01:58 AM
Are you still on about that? I told you to just stop wearing stripes and you'd feel better about yourself.

nihilist
13th September 09, 02:02 AM
Let's not change the subject.

The lipo is about the same as the Gucci bag and if you decide to undergo the former, I'd be more inclined to do you from behind.

Arhetton
13th September 09, 02:04 AM
I've got a book to lend you danno:

http://www.amazon.com/Looks-They-Matter-More-Imagined/dp/0814480543/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1252825428&sr=8-1

nihilist
13th September 09, 02:18 AM
Where is that video? the one about avoiding sexual harassment lawsuits where they spell it out pretty clearly:

#1. "Be attractive."
#2. "Don't be unattractive."

danno
13th September 09, 02:20 AM
Danno, I reckon you could broaden your terms. Instead of 'emulation', you could speak of 'aspiration', i.e. clothing is an attempt to reach a certain vision of what's beautiful, or good.

This would include emulation, but not be confined to it.

that might be a good idea.

i'd just like to put some emphasis on how we use fashion to project an image of ourselves, making use of cultural mores, memes, signs, symbols in the process (as any medium of art does). but very importantly in fashion, we do this to associate ourselves with these things in the minds of others.

that's the part i've been thinking most about. it's this quality that separates fashion from everything else imo, one of it's most important functions.

nihilist
13th September 09, 02:28 AM
I've always bought clothes on the basis of how they fit me rather than as a vehicle towards transforming or presenting me as something I'm not.

Perhaps I don't fit the run of the mill consumer mold.

danno
13th September 09, 02:30 AM
I've got a book to lend you danno:

http://www.amazon.com/Looks-They-Matter-More-Imagined/dp/0814480543/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1252825428&sr=8-1

looks interesting. seems to be more about physical attractiveness though? which is augmented by clothing and makeup of course.

and then there's the fact that associating yourself with a certain subculture or whatever can make you look more attractive to some...

nihilist
13th September 09, 02:36 AM
I've always loved the irony in how children "rebel" by donning the official costume of one of the main cliche looks whether it be Goth, Punk, etc.

danno
13th September 09, 02:40 AM
I've always bought clothes on the basis of how they fit me rather than as a vehicle towards transforming or presenting me as something I'm not.

you just don't think about your appearance very deeply. you're mostly ignoring one of the more powerful functions of fashion.

i'm pretty much the same.


Perhaps I don't fit the run of the mill consumer mold.

nah, there are plenty of us. i think.

but you're still wearing things that are acceptable to those around you, and still projecting an image. however simple it is.

DAYoung
13th September 09, 02:41 AM
I've always loved the irony in how children "rebel" by donning the official costume of one of the main cliche looks whether it be Goth, Punk, etc.

What's more fascinating is that it actually works. Their parents (who embody the society they're rebelling) sometimes freak out - despite how contrived and domesticated the 'look' is.

danno
13th September 09, 02:56 AM
I've always loved the irony in how children "rebel" by donning the official costume of one of the main cliche looks whether it be Goth, Punk, etc.

the best way to be non-conformist is to... conform!

EuropIan
13th September 09, 03:10 AM
the best way to be non-conformist is to... conform!
that happened with the commercialisation of counter-culture.

Capitalism's biggest victory

nihilist
13th September 09, 03:13 AM
When Nordstrom's started selling flannel work-shirts as "grunge wear" the irony reached it's peak.

Cullion
13th September 09, 05:05 AM
I'm shockingly scruffy day to day, but I enjoy dressing up for a formal occasion and then I make real effort.

Lights Out
20th September 09, 07:42 AM
He was a rebel without a cause

I'd say he was more a wild one.

James Dean, on the other hand...