PDA

View Full Version : Kurt Angle Charged With HGH Possesion



JollyRoger
17th August 09, 07:25 AM
http://www.fanhouse.com/news/main/kurt-angle-charged-with-hgh-possession/624251?icid=main|main|dl1|link5|http%3A%2F%2Fwww.f anhouse.com%2Fnews%2Fmain%2Fkurt-angle-charged-with-hgh-possession%2F624251


MCKEES ROCKS, Pa. (Aug. 17) -- Pro wrestler and Olympic gold medalist Kurt Angle has been arrested on charges of possessing a human growth hormone and violating an order of protection in suburban Pittsburgh.
Angle was arrested about 7:50 a.m. Saturday in a Robinson Township strip mall parking lot. His girlfriend, who said she obtained a protection order about 1 1/2 hours earlier after the two fought Friday night, alleged that he had circled the lot staring at her as she sat in a coffee shop, according to a police affidavit.
Police said they found the human growth hormone Hygetropin in Angle's car, and the wrestler told them he had a prescription for the drug. He also told officers he had not seen the woman and was looking for a hotel because he was barred from his home.

Angle, 40, was charged with violating the order of protection, harassment, possession of drugs and paraphernalia and driving with a suspended license. He posted bail and is scheduled to appear for a hearing Tuesday on the drug and harassment charges and Wednesday on the charge of violating the protection order, a court clerk said.
Angle's attorney, Michael Santicola, said Sunday night that there appears to be no cooperating evidence for the protection order. He said Angle stopped at the coffee shop on his way to a hotel and the woman happened to be there.
Angle, the current heavyweight champion of Total Nonstop Action Wrestling, was scheduled to appear in a TNA Wrestling event Sunday night in Orlando, Fla. Steven Godfrey, spokesman for Nashville, Tenn.-based TNA Wrestling, declined to comment on the arrest but said the main event between Angle, Sting and "The Blueprint'' Matt Morgan would go on as scheduled.
Godfrey also said TNA has a drug policy in place for staff and performers, but he declined to release the details.
Angle is a two-time NCAA Division I wrestling champion at Clarion University in western Pennsylvania. He won the 220-pound championship at the 1996 Olympics in Atlanta, defeating Iran's Abbas Jadidi for the gold medal, and has been a professional wrestler since 1998.
In September, Angle was found not guilty of drunken driving in Moon Township outside Pittsburgh. A motorist told police Angle had cut her off while leaving a bar parking lot.

Kein Haar
17th August 09, 08:19 AM
The impression I got from modern-era [American] boxing is that it was a vehicle in which urban young men aspired to be not as much of a douche as they used to be...or at the very least, the decline in douche-baggery was happenstance to being busy.

I'm extremely disappointed in MMA culture. It seems like it's a venue in which to show-off and increase douche-baggery.

Especially for white, and to some degree, hispanic kids.

I recently took advantage of a free session of rolling at a newish nearby MMA gym.

During the course of casual conversation it was brought up that cops have run into arresstees at the evening practices.

That's not particularly becoming for either party.

For shame.

I'd migrate over to Judo if I ever find myself motivated again. Fuck that noise.

Blad3 was the writing on the wall.

Cullion
17th August 09, 08:31 AM
How do police officers cope if they meet somebody they've previously arrested in a social context? I suppose it largely depends on what they were being arrested for and how they behaved when the officer showed up, but I'm interested.

Kein Haar
17th August 09, 08:38 AM
I'd be comfortable if I was particularly impartial and sympathetic; in which case, if I couldn't avoid him, I'd inquire about how he's doing and tell him to take care of himself...or something like that...and try to conclude the interaction ASAP on a high note.

If there were any pissing matches, or really horrible characters, I'd just leave immediately.

Cullion
17th August 09, 08:42 AM
It sounds like you really have to get 'in character' for work and find it extremely uncomfortable to be forced back into that persona when not working.

That doesn't sound surprising at all, now I think about what police work involves.

partyboy
17th August 09, 08:44 AM
this leads me to another question I've been asking myself:

what if you came to your respective gym and your boss/coworker/acquaintance who you've been secretly (or openly) wanting to punch their face in was there. do you get to fulfill your fantasies and beat the crap out of them? (assuming you can, of course)

Kein Haar
17th August 09, 08:46 AM
Take the guy from yesterday, for instance.

He was [not extremely] drunk, and while walking home he decided (on his own) to crash a party inside someone's house. During the partiers removal of him, he bit someone really good on the chest.

The hell you say to some feral asshole like that?

Nothing.

Fearless Ukemi
17th August 09, 12:27 PM
Let your fists do the talking. It's legal in that context.

Feryk
17th August 09, 01:03 PM
All the OP confirms is that you can have all the talent in the world and still be an asshole. I've often wondered why Angle didn't make the transition to MMA after Lesnar. Maybe being 40 and needing HGH to keep up is the reason.

Kein Haar
17th August 09, 02:10 PM
Let your fists do the talking. It's legal in that context.

They did, but not nearly enough.

As for me, that's just a cue to leave if I see him anywhere else.

HappyOldGuy
17th August 09, 02:27 PM
Hmm, my main gym is owned by a cop, and has a couple of others training there, as well as several folks looking to go to academy or in the process of. It actually grew out of what used to be a PAL judo club. I haven't seen much other than some amusing philosophical discussions about marijuana legalization. Might just be a question of finding another gym.

Although I'm not sure what this has to do with kurt angle.

Cullion
17th August 09, 04:37 PM
HOG I would guess there's quite a difference between a cop meeting somebody in a social setting who has been arrested in the past (in the abstract sense), and meeting somebody who they had to personally arrest.

HappyOldGuy
17th August 09, 04:47 PM
HOG I would guess there's quite a difference between a cop meeting somebody in a social setting who has been arrested in the past (in the abstract sense), and meeting somebody who they had to personally arrest.
I'm just telling our resident pig who isn't sfgoon that there are MMA gyms he would feel comfortable at, including the one I train at.

Fearless Ukemi
17th August 09, 04:54 PM
Kurt Angle is what it is. This sidetrack discussion is more interesting.

SFGOON
17th August 09, 06:03 PM
MMA idiots are idiots. The sport has provided an excellent outlet and public forum for a great deal of turd-ism.

Whether or not this serves to engender further turd-ism remains to be seen, though I suspect it will....

WarPhalange
17th August 09, 07:27 PM
Never Back Down failed to help MMA. They should have had a Cobra Kai, and not some random douchebag kid. And then the coach teaches the lone student the REAL MMA, straight from MMA-Land and shows the audience that douchebags aren't fit for MMA.

danno
18th August 09, 01:11 AM
in the smaller, mostly aboriginal towns he worked in, dad had a many good mates he'd locked up/beaten up in the past.

Cullion
18th August 09, 04:19 AM
That's Australia though. Americans take a brawl much more personally.

danno
18th August 09, 04:40 AM
and it's outback australia in the 70's and 80's.

not fighting was practically a faux pas.

Cullion
18th August 09, 04:54 AM
What do most people do for a living in these remote outback towns? Mining and farming ? is there much unemployment?

The (quite possibly totally false) impression I get from films is that it's a mix of outdoorsy agricultural work and unemployment with cheerfully accepted casual alcoholism to fill in the boredom.

danno
18th August 09, 08:36 AM
The (quite possibly totally false) impression I get from films is that it's a mix of outdoorsy agricultural work and unemployment with cheerfully accepted casual alcoholism to fill in the boredom.

this may be one of those rare times that films have actually given you a decent idea of what it's like.

if you're not working on a farm or in one of the 2 shops in town or the pub, you're unemployed.

if you're unemployed, with nothing to give you any sense of worth, you can temporarily fortify your self esteem with alcohol, violence and sex.

but the movies make it look like a lot more fun than actually is. it really fucking sucked in my opinion. but dad enjoyed that shit somehow. i think he watched too many cowboy films as a kid.

Cullion
18th August 09, 08:44 AM
How do they persuade people to move out there to do jobs like teaching etc..?

Is it a question of cheap housing and people having romantic ideals about living on a frontier? financial incentives (as I understand they have in Alaska), or a steady flow of people raised there getting an education in a city and then returning home because it's what they know ?

danno
18th August 09, 08:54 AM
it's very difficult to get teachers and doctors and so on out to places like that. often they'll have something like one doctor that comes in once a week or fortnight. teachers would lose their minds from time to time. like, just start crying in the middle of a class.

i lived in a few different little towns all around new south wales, and it was varying degrees of that type of thing.

as for romantic ideals, dad definitely had them. he tended to pwn up these places, have them wrapped around his little finger. but my early education (and probably physical safety!) was pretty damn poor because of where we lived. by the time i was 8 or 9 years old i basically just knew the alphabet.

the wealthier farmers tend to send their kids off to boarding schools in the city, and they might end up studying agriculture or something at uni and possibly coming back.

nihilist
18th August 09, 09:56 AM
Legislating the sale of performance enhancing drugs is wrong.

Control the actions of the douchebag, not the substance.

Doritosaurus Chex
18th August 09, 06:38 PM
It looks like Kurt Angle really had to drop the 3 I's when he moved over to TNA.

Cullion
18th August 09, 07:53 PM
but the movies make it look like a lot more fun than actually is. it really fucking sucked in my opinion. but dad enjoyed that shit somehow. i think he watched too many cowboy films as a kid.

He grew up in England in the mid-20th century.

If he was from one of the large British cities then most of his waking hours were spent in an extremely crowded, dirty metropolis of anonymous faces where it was windy and/or raining with a grey overcast sky for much of the year, and there was little privacy or real freedom to be alone. Making enough money to move to a 'nice place in the country' was a tough prospect unless he had the academic ability to be admitted to grammar school and university (a v.small percentage of working class lads would've managed this when he was growing up), or a real entrepeneurial flair.

If you can imagine what it's like to grow up in that world, then you can see how this wild, wide-open place where there might be some dangerous animals and insects, but it's sunny all the time and land is cheap is something you could easily fantasize about ?

danno
18th August 09, 08:29 PM
i can certainly understand.

he grew up on the isle of sheppey, by all accounts it was pretty rough for various reasons.

he left school and started working when he was around 15 i think. he was one of the top young boxers in the country. then the family moved to australia. when his dad died of a heart attack not long after (a grizzly irish 40 year old WWII veteran who was still picking little pieces of shrapnel out his body), they all moved back again.

he joined the police force as a young man in the UK, and hung around for a couple more years. then he moved back to aus, worked in a bank and boxed professionally for a while before becoming a copper. i imagine it would have been a pretty turbulent time for him.

he's said that he was amazed at the higher quality food, space and opportunity that australia seemed to have, or something along those lines.

i'm now considering visiting him in tamworth so i can film some of his crazy stories for upload to youtube. some of the things he's done are jaw dropping.

Ajamil
19th August 09, 12:07 AM
Kurt Angle's the one with the bald head and weird (no?) teeth, right?

Fearless Ukemi
19th August 09, 10:26 AM
He's your olympic hero.

Ajamil
19th August 09, 11:33 AM
Michael Phelps?

Feryk
21st August 09, 05:20 PM
1996 Olympic Hero. Does that help?

socratic
23rd August 09, 12:07 AM
and it's outback australia in the 70's and 80's.

not fighting was practically a faux pas.

Then the Aboriginal guy dies mysteriously in the box.


What do most people do for a living in these remote outback towns? Mining and farming ? is there much unemployment?

Unemployment is highest in country towns. Basically there's plenty of people in these rural hellholes doing shit all.


The (quite possibly totally false) impression I get from films is that it's a mix of outdoorsy agricultural work and unemployment with cheerfully accepted casual alcoholism to fill in the boredom.

Crime is high in these regions. As is suicide. I'm a little late to the party but I'm self righteous enough to say my bit anyway. :D

DAYoung
23rd August 09, 01:06 AM
I love that Danno (sorry, I mean 'danno') comes out of this as a fine artist.

danno
23rd August 09, 03:12 AM
I love that Danno (sorry, I mean 'danno') comes out of this as a fine artist.

i'm pretty surprised myself.

DAYoung
23rd August 09, 03:13 AM
i'm pretty surprised myself.

surprised n' sassy?

SFGOON
25th August 09, 02:01 AM
Man - I want to get some steroids or recombinant ergogenics or OOOOOO some SARMs SO BAD!!!!

But, I'm not allowed.

What a fucking load of shit.

Cullion
25th August 09, 02:03 AM
Why do you want these things ?

SFGOON
25th August 09, 03:04 AM
Used properly, they can unlock the potential of human biology in amazing ways.

The creator wove several gifts into our genetic code, ones which we only recently developed the potential to claim.

Wouldn't you like to be more vital, more alert, more "tuned in" to the people around you?

Surely you've noticed that you get injured more easily and take longer to recover the older you get. This need not be...

If you enjoy life, as I do, wouldn't living to be 200 be nice? What's more, a healthy 200 years?

You could live so long you wouldn't bother to keep track of your descendants. How much wealth could you build in that amount of time?

Unfortunately, most people who get involved with steroid and SARM (selective androgen receptor modulator) use are vain turds who do it to pursue hardened pecs and monster glutes.

I don't see SARMs and recombinant hormones as "drugs" or a way to increase my max bench while simultainiously shrinking my testicles. This has nothing to do with vanity. Synthetic hormones are a vital part of the next evolution of life on Earth.

Some amazing things have been synthesized in the last few years. You still have to die, but you may not have to grow old anymore. At least not the way your ancestors did.

bob
25th August 09, 03:28 AM
So why are you not allowed? Is what you want illegal or just tested for in the force?

SFGOON
25th August 09, 11:55 AM
What I want is either schedule III (restricted,) not currently being manufactured, or under lock and key at GlaxoSmithKline, Merck, or Pfizer.

The sweet one, the one I think has the most potential to promote health and longevity is tetrahydrogestrinone (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetrahydrogestrinone) also known as THG. Illustrating the utter bizarreness of steroid chemistry, THG is technically an estrogen with a progesterone-ish hat and a testosterone tail.

THG has the unique power to affect muscle growth at ridiculously low doses without disrupting routing endocrine functions. It was discovered by a turd who created it by altering a ladie's birth control pill and subsequently sold it to dumb jocks who got caught using it.

The FDA freaked out when it learned that sports heroes were using it to hit home runs, win foot races and exert a poor influence on children. They stomped into the turd's lab and banned the hell out of it, declared it to be a pharmaceutical, and nobody manufactures it. I hope they grow old and rot in sanctimonious irony.

Pharmaceutical companies are now making molecules which affect testosterone receptors in a VERY unbalanced way, meaning a lady could take them to recover muscle mass and not start to look-a-like-a-man. This is a BIG fucking deal, as it has been the intent of androgen synthesis from the very beginning.

But - I can see where it's going already. Sports heroes and cheating and sportsmanship and little league and "won't somebody PLEASE think of the children!"

God damn I fucking hate jocks. Still, to this day, I fucking hate jocks.

Feryk
25th August 09, 04:44 PM
^ This is why I love Goon. Homicidal Psycopathy, backed up with hard science. You remain my hero.

socratic
26th August 09, 07:53 AM
The history of steroid legislation is one unholy assault against reason alright, fulla lies, backstabbing and double-standards.

I don't need androgens but maybe when I'm 70 and flabby it might be important. Most of my relatives don't make it past 70 anyway so I'm guessing something nasty will come out and eat me, like leukemia or hypertension or strokes or something.

HappyOldGuy
26th August 09, 10:43 AM
The history of steroid legislation is one unholy assault against reason alright, fulla lies, backstabbing and double-standards.


No. They are the result of a medical model that does not weigh sports performance on the scale when balancing benefit and side effects. The idiots who point out the side effects of prescription drugs don't get it that those drugs provide medical benefit. They cure disease. They relieve pain. Etc. And those benefits are compared against their side effects.

Since sports performance doesn't weigh on the scale at all, any performance supplement with significant side effects will get banned.

You can argue whether the model is right, but don't whine about oppression.

Feryk
26th August 09, 12:03 PM
No. They are the result of a medical model that does not weigh sports performance on the scale when balancing benefit and side effects. The idiots who point out the side effects of prescription drugs don't get it that those drugs provide medical benefit. They cure disease. They relieve pain. Etc. And those benefits are compared against their side effects.

Since sports performance doesn't weigh on the scale at all, any performance supplement with significant side effects will get banned.

You can argue whether the model is right, but don't whine about oppression.

I believe Goon's post points out that a lot of these substances, used properly HAVE benefits in extending the quality of a person's life (reducing age related deterioration, for example). But no one cares, because they are banned as 'performance enhancing' drugs - regardless of the other benefits they may have.

From that perspective it IS oppression -- or at least suppression of technology.

HappyOldGuy
26th August 09, 01:08 PM
I believe Goon's post points out that a lot of these substances, used properly HAVE benefits in extending the quality of a person's life (reducing age related deterioration, for example). But no one cares, because they are banned as 'performance enhancing' drugs - regardless of the other benefits they may have.

From that perspective it IS oppression -- or at least suppression of technology.
Incorrect. Any of them that have passed muster with the FDA as a legitimate, safe treatment are available by prescription.

Pretty much the entire juicers stack is available for treatment of various wasting conditions or to combat low testosterone levels. If you are a woman, you just need to decide you'd rather be a man.

Ajamil
26th August 09, 01:32 PM
Steroids are used a lot in asthma treatment.

Feryk
26th August 09, 02:36 PM
Incorrect. Any of them that have passed muster with the FDA as a legitimate, safe treatment are available by prescription.

I don't have an understanding of the drugs/science involved, so I'll leave that discussion to you, Poop, and Goon. All I know is that if there are drugs out there (in addition to Viagra) that will help me live with a high quality of life into my 80's, I WANT THEM.

HappyOldGuy
26th August 09, 02:59 PM
I don't have an understanding of the drugs/science involved, so I'll leave that discussion to you, Poop, and Goon. All I know is that if there are drugs out there (in addition to Viagra) that will help me live with a high quality of life into my 80's, I WANT THEM.

Canada will be an entirely different ball of wax because of your medical system. But here in the states you can get any or all of them from "longevity clinics" that mostly exist to write medically dubious prescriptions for testosterone and HGH.

Cullion
26th August 09, 04:45 PM
Wouldn't you like to be more vital, more alert, more "tuned in" to the people around you?

Surely you've noticed that you get injured more easily and take longer to recover the older you get. This need not be...

If you enjoy life, as I do, wouldn't living to be 200 be nice? What's more, a healthy 200 years?

You could live so long you wouldn't bother to keep track of your descendants. How much wealth could you build in that amount of time?

Hmmm... I'm not sure about the whole Transhumanism thing. I don't think adults ought to be banned from persuing it, but I'm not sure if it's for me.

I haven't mastered myself enough to get all the benefits possible from nutritious diet and consistent, intelligently planned exercise routines yet.

Adding some expensive experimental chemistry into the mix just instinctively seems wrong somehow. Not morally wrong, so much as 'likely to fail expensively and perhaps painfully'.

I need to keep trying to be more mindful of what I eat and dilligent in attending every training session I say I'm going to attend until I'm all I can be the time-tested way. Still so much room for improvement

I don't want to end up like Lazarus Churchyard.

Kein Haar
27th August 09, 01:16 PM
When you say things like that, this is what Goon turns into.

http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/200512/r67024_185446.jpg

Fearless Ukemi
27th August 09, 02:53 PM
Is that you in the hat and glasses?

Kein Haar
27th August 09, 03:19 PM
Fully sick, aren't they?

nihilist
27th August 09, 03:21 PM
Are those cartoon-themed Underoos?

bob
27th August 09, 04:09 PM
That guy's carrying a Coopers. I'm going to have to reconsider my choice of beer now that I know it's the label of choice for racial assault.

nihilist
27th August 09, 04:20 PM
Maybe he was unduly influenced by advertising.

danno
27th August 09, 07:56 PM
Are those cartoon-themed Underoos?

pretty sure it's the australian flag.

EuropIan
27th August 09, 08:56 PM
Are those cartoon-themed Underoos?
pretty sure it's the australian flag.
That's what he said.

socratic
27th August 09, 09:20 PM
No. They are the result of a medical model that does not weigh sports performance on the scale when balancing benefit and side effects. The idiots who point out the side effects of prescription drugs don't get it that those drugs provide medical benefit. They cure disease. They relieve pain. Etc. And those benefits are compared against their side effects.

Since sports performance doesn't weigh on the scale at all, any performance supplement with significant side effects will get banned.

You can argue whether the model is right, but don't whine about oppression.

"Steriods are bad but we won't perform testing on the matter because they're bad and dangerous, even though we test everything from arsenic to LSD clinically" is a pretty big double-standard; I wouldn't use the word 'oppression', but I would say that the industry is deliberately avoiding that avenue of research based on fears they're yet to prove and political motivations.

Apparently a lot of the anti-steroid stuff came out when it was discovered everyone in baseball juiced and congress circled the wagons and the whole polemic was founded on hysteria, with people in public positions still rattling their spears about how many people steroids kills and how bad they are, even when some of these dudes are/were anabolic-heads themselves. Arnie coming out and saying "Steroids are bad, mmmkay?" is a good example of the whole dilemma, considering his life was built with anabolic aids.


Steroids are used a lot in asthma treatment. Not the kind you're thinking of, though. 'Steroid' is an artificial hormone; I doubt people huff puffers to get ripped.

When you say things like that, this is what Goon turns into.

Goon wears boxer shorts with the Australian flag on them? Awesome.


That's what he said.

OH NO YOU DI'N'T!!!!!!

And dude, Sceptic, Coopers really isn't all that good at all man.

HappyOldGuy
27th August 09, 10:19 PM
"Steriods are bad but we won't perform testing on the matter because they're bad and dangerous, even though we test everything from arsenic to LSD clinically" is a pretty big double-standard; I wouldn't use the word 'oppression', but I would say that the industry is deliberately avoiding that avenue of research based on fears they're yet to prove and political motivations.
Almost all of them have been evaluated clinically. Most of them are available by prescription.

Who do you think is developing them? Bob at Golds?

nihilist
28th August 09, 01:56 AM
pretty sure he's the australian fag.

socratic
28th August 09, 06:19 AM
Almost all of them have been evaluated clinically. Most of them are available by prescription.

Who do you think is developing them? Bob at Golds?

Goon just told us about one androgen whose production was halted by the FDA. The tests on long-term effects of anabolic steroids do not exist is my main point, which is why 'STEROIDS ARE BAD MMKAY?' flourished. I can find you interviews with guys behind these decisions if you like. I was of the impression that long-term (as in, several years or even several decades) testing of androgens wasn't really going on at all. It was kind of a big point raised in Bigger Stronger Faster. If this isn't true I for one would love to know.

I'm not saying no one is developing them; I mean, there's always an industry for these things, particularly in the US, but the long-term influence of these compounds isn't fully known, is what I'm trying to say. I apologise for my shitty attempts to get this across.

And quit disagreeing with me man, you're always the voice of reason around here and you're making my spider-sense go off. :P

socratic
28th August 09, 06:21 AM
Also, it seems to me that what precipitated Bush Senior's Steroids Control Act was less a fear of steroid's ill effects but its usage in sporting competition as 'unfair aids'. What with the whole congress investigation into drug-cheats in baseball, and the Korean olympics, and whatnot.

nihilist
28th August 09, 07:59 AM
The documentary Bigger, Stronger, Faster should be required viewing for anyone who believes that the US is anything but a hypocrite when it comes to condoning the use of steroids in the Olympics.

EuropIan
28th August 09, 02:03 PM
Tour De France is where to see top tier competition in sports medicine.

And stealth sports medicine

SFGOON
28th August 09, 02:07 PM
Almost all of them have been evaluated clinically. Most of them are available by prescription.

Very few are actually produced, and those that are tend to be some of the crudest and cheapest to manufacture - methyl testosterone, for instance.


do you think is developing them? Bob at Golds?

That's pretty much an apt description of Patrick Arnold, who "invented" Tetrahydrogestrinone. He performed a VERY simple reduction on a birth control molecule which happened to convert it into one of the best anabolic substances ever made. He fell ass-backwards into it.

The social and legal stigma on steroid use is hysterical and undeserved, much like marijuanna.

Fucking puritans.

HappyOldGuy
28th August 09, 02:15 PM
The social and legal stigma on steroid use is hysterical and undeserved, much like marijuanna.

Fucking puritans.

Of course it is, but the medical/FDA response is fairly measured and reasonable once you understand what they are weighing in the pro's and cons. I.e. that if a steroid raises your max bench by a thousand pounds but has a slight risk of pimples, the pimples win, because your max bench is not a valid medical decision point.

SFGOON
28th August 09, 02:27 PM
What if, instead of maxing out some meatheads SICK BENCH!!! it kept people from losing strength and bone density as they aged? And what if, in their sanctimonious hysteria, FDA officials limited access to these substances based off junk science and the fact that a few idiots abuse it?

HappyOldGuy
28th August 09, 02:35 PM
What if, instead of maxing out some meatheads SICK BENCH!!! it kept people from losing strength and bone density as they aged? And what if, in their sanctimonious hysteria, FDA officials limited access to these substances based off junk science and the fact that a few idiots abuse it?
Then it would be able to pass FDA muster and make the developer billions of dollars.

Provided of course it didn't turn out to significantly raise heart disease risk, cancer risk, etc, like most hormone treatments seem to.

Edit: the above is a clue by the way into the real reason you aren't seeing lots of hormone research. The estrogen HRT debacle has most of the pharmas super gunshy.

bob
28th August 09, 03:58 PM
The documentary Bigger, Stronger, Faster should be required viewing for anyone who believes that the US is anything but a hypocrite when it comes to condoning the use of steroids in the Olympics.

It was the 'average' guys using in that film that made me sad. The brother who could see it was obviously affecting his marriage but was talking in the language of an addict - 'I can quit any time if I want to.'

Cullion
28th August 09, 04:41 PM
What if, instead of maxing out some meatheads SICK BENCH!!! it kept people from losing strength and bone density as they aged? And what if, in their sanctimonious hysteria, FDA officials limited access to these substances based off junk science and the fact that a few idiots abuse it?

I could see your point in the case of reasonable old Liberals who just wanted to carry on enjoying hiking holidays and heavy gardening work well into their 70s, but you are just trying to use this as a trojan to get a green light on massive, massive biceps that let you do 1-arm chins whilst lifting a paedophile's weight as you triangle-choke him to death.

And I think that's unbalanced.

nihilist
28th August 09, 07:56 PM
Of course it is, but the medical/FDA response is fairly measured and reasonable once you understand what they are weighing in the pro's and cons. I.e. that if a steroid raises your max bench by a thousand pounds but has a slight risk of pimples, the pimples win, because your max bench is not a valid medical decision point.

Why then don't the risk of pimples override the deliciousness of the Royale with cheese?

SFGOON
29th August 09, 03:37 AM
I could see your point in the case of reasonable old Liberals who just wanted to carry on enjoying hiking holidays and heavy gardening work well into their 70s, but you are just trying to use this as a trojan to get a green light on massive, massive biceps that let you do 1-arm chins whilst lifting a paedophile's weight as you triangle-choke him to death.

And I think that's unbalanced.

Add doing the above at age 143 and you'd be quite correct.


Provided of course it didn't turn out to significantly raise heart disease risk, cancer risk, etc, like most hormone treatments seem to.

Many synthetic androgens are methylated at the 17-a carbon located on the "D" cyclopentane ring of the steroid structure. This makes the drug orally bioavailable but also slightly hepatotoxic. This configuration is not found in nature. Extended abuse can and will result in liver cancer.

But that's abuse, not use. With transdermal delivery, improving the pharmacokinetics with 17-a alkylation is unwarranted.

It's not a terribly complicated undertaking to determine the carcinogenicy of a biological substance, and such molecules are easily eliminated during the drug discovery process.

With regard to the promotion of heart disease, androgens do two things that get cardiologists' panties in a bind. 1 - they increase the apparent amount of Low density lipoprotien in the blood which is correlated to heart disease, and 2- they tend to cause hypertrophy of the left ventricle of the heart, which is also strongly correlated to heart disease.

Correlation, as we all know, is not causailty, and I submit that in this case it is a statistical red herring.

In a normal circulatory system, cholesterol (read that last word again - cholesterol,) is the product of a shitty diet. The cholesterol clogs the arteries and forces the heart to work harder, which it compensates for by enlarging the left ventricle.

You get a similar pattern with androgens, but for entirely different reasons. Many synthetic steroids intentionally avoid sex-hormone-binding globulins, which causes them to circulate as "free cholesterol" and register as such, and the general muscle building effects of androgens DOES result in the enlargement of the muscle tissue of the heart, along with all the other muscle tissues in the body.

The absurd levels of bulk added by meatheads DOES add stress to the heart and WILL kill you just as fast as being a fucking fatass. That's not what I'm talking about though.

Women take birth control pills for DECADES without significant side effects. Structurally these are almost identical to androgens. Where are your graveyards filled with whores who use birth control?

I'm not saying that all steroids are saints and completely safe. That would be an asinine statement regarding a very BROAD class of chemicals which include cholesterol, pregnenolone, cortisol, progesterone, hydrocortisone, DHEA, and some neurotoxins as well. However, there are drugs which fall into the "steroid" or "performance enhancing drug" category which don't have significant adverse effects relative to their ability to promote well-being. There could be beneficial medical indication for them except for the stigma placed upon them by people who have no idea what they're talking about.

So there.

socratic
29th August 09, 03:51 AM
It was the 'average' guys using in that film that made me sad. The brother who could see it was obviously affecting his marriage but was talking in the language of an addict - 'I can quit any time if I want to.'

Except his career is/was dependent entirely on steroids. Same with 'Smelly'; the boys at Westside were right, if Smelly stopped roids he would not be able to compete successfully anymore.


Of course it is, but the medical/FDA response is fairly measured and reasonable once you understand what they are weighing in the pro's and cons. I.e. that if a steroid raises your max bench by a thousand pounds but has a slight risk of pimples, the pimples win, because your max bench is not a valid medical decision point.

Did they/do they really think this way? It seems to me that they only care about steroids because of its enhancement power and then retroactively added shit, 'reefer madness' style. First they decide something's bad for a reason you don't hear about, then they start worrying about the bad thing's side effects. At least, when non-medical possession of steroids was banned in the 90s. The two major cases to me seem to be the Korean olympics (american sprinter loses to canadian, canada doesn't pony up enough dough so drug council un-ignores canadian failing steroids test, America does pay up enough so American doesn't get ousted and gets gold by default) and the Barry Bonds thing with baseball. Congress spent 8 days on the war-path over that one. Apparently the FDA testified against banning steroid possession but Congress said "Eff Yuu, they're messing with baseball!'

socratic
29th August 09, 03:54 AM
Yo Goon, aren't the carcinogenic properties restricted entirely to the oral-androgens, or do all androgens have potential carcinogenic properties?

I wonder how people know of these carcinogenic properties even though actually-long-term studies of steroid usage apparently don't exist?

nihilist
29th August 09, 08:26 AM
Drink too much water and you could DIE.

Did you hear that FDA?
You cocksuckers.

Cullion
29th August 09, 01:10 PM
Goon, what do you think of men like this guy:-

http://www.arthurdevany.com/

or Loren Cordain, or Tamir Katz ? Or some of the more challenging CMA nei gong/qi gong out there? I know you're willing to experiment with the exotic because of your love of Russian methods.

Have you explored all the weird options available to you other than experimental chemistry? or does this have to be about experimental chemistry, because you love thinking about molecules ?

HappyOldGuy
29th August 09, 01:52 PM
Women take birth control pills for DECADES without significant side effects. Structurally these are almost identical to androgens. Where are your graveyards filled with whores who use birth control?


Everywhere

http://womenshealth.suite101.com/article.cfm/birth_control_pills_hidden_risk

But it's still a lesser risk than pregnancy,

http://blogs.abcnews.com/health_insider/2009/01/think-birth-con.html

hence medically groovy.

socratic
31st August 09, 01:43 AM
Goon, what do you think of men like this guy:-

http://www.arthurdevany.com/

or Loren Cordain, or Tamir Katz ? Or some of the more challenging CMA nei gong/qi gong out there? I know you're willing to experiment with the exotic because of your love of Russian methods.

Have you explored all the weird options available to you other than experimental chemistry? or does this have to be about experimental chemistry, because you love thinking about molecules ?I think you and I have already discussed Qigong before, but I have a low opinion of it beyond the simplistic mobility exercises I'm told can be derived from it. For longevity purposes I can think of much better pursuits; for example, Jack LaLanne is older and stronger than both of us put together, and I doubt he's done a single Qigong posture in his life.

Cullion
31st August 09, 01:54 AM
Very true. Jack LaLanne's diet is very simillar in its principles of the paleo-diet enthusiasts I mentioned in that post though.

socratic
31st August 09, 02:03 AM
Very true. Jack LaLanne's diet is very simillar in its principles of the paleo-diet enthusiasts I mentioned in that post though. Except that Jack doesn't eat legumes, if memory serves. But yeah, I totally agree with Paleo diet (except I really like grains) and I see a lot of congruencies between Jack's diet and theirs; he always talks about eating fresh and raw as much as possible, which might be important.

The most long-lived [and with greatest health into their old age] people in the world are rural Okinawans. No one can quite figure out why, but they're starting to think diets high in homegrown vegetables and seafood may be behind it. They also tweak their portion sizes apparently so they don't 'eat until stuffed', they merely 'eat until satiated'. No one really knows for certain why they live so long though. Green Tea and Natto both have pro-longevity properties, though.

Cullion
31st August 09, 02:39 AM
Legumes are banned under some variants of the Paleo diet (certainly in the Tamir Katz e-book I've read). It's because of lectins apparently.

The Tamir Katz book basically makes the case that vegetables which you can't eat raw shouldn't be eaten cooked because it doesn't get rid of all the lectins and other toxins completely. I dunno. He is an MD and he does cite peer-reviewed papers.

Okinawan longevity could have a genetic component.

socratic
31st August 09, 03:31 AM
Legumes are banned under some variants of the Paleo diet (certainly in the Tamir Katz e-book I've read). It's because of lectins apparently.

The Tamir Katz book basically makes the case that vegetables which you can't eat raw shouldn't be eaten cooked because it doesn't get rid of all the lectins and other toxins completely. I dunno. He is an MD and he does cite peer-reviewed papers. That said I see no reason to limit your potential nutrient base because you can't eat it raw.


Okinawan longevity could have a genetic component.Amongst many, many other potential factors. Pollution (or lack thereof), diet, lifestyle, labour, social habits/attitudes...

danno
31st August 09, 03:35 AM
and the fact that those japs are so sly and cunning.

socratic
31st August 09, 03:38 AM
and the fact that those japs are so sly and cunning.I know this is a joke, but I'll just mention for any particularly daft lurkers out there that Okinawans have their own language, culture and 'ethnicity'. They are not Japanese, even if the Japanese government may or may not say otherwise.

danno
31st August 09, 08:02 AM
they're all the same sneaky bastards to me.

Cullion
31st August 09, 02:57 PM
That said I see no reason to limit your potential nutrient base because you can't eat it raw.

Well, I should make it clear that I don't know if this theory is true. The argument from the paleo-diet people who cite scientific papers on the subject is that trace amounts of various toxins remain even when cooked and that these are sufficient to interfere with digestion and other bodily processes in subtle ways that become noticeable after years.

Have a look at Tamir Katz' e-book. It's only $4.

In reality, there are far more obvious dietary sins than legumes that I still tuck into. Like beer. All the other things you mention could also of course affect Okinawan lifespans.

Toby Christensen
5th September 09, 12:48 AM
What I want is either schedule III (restricted,) not currently being manufactured, or under lock and key at GlaxoSmithKline, Merck, or Pfizer.

The sweet one, the one I think has the most potential to promote health and longevity is tetrahydrogestrinone (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetrahydrogestrinone) also known as THG. Illustrating the utter bizarreness of steroid chemistry, THG is technically an estrogen with a progesterone-ish hat and a testosterone tail.

THG has the unique power to affect muscle growth at ridiculously low doses without disrupting routing endocrine functions. It was discovered by a turd who created it by altering a ladie's birth control pill and subsequently sold it to dumb jocks who got caught using it.

The FDA freaked out when it learned that sports heroes were using it to hit home runs, win foot races and exert a poor influence on children. They stomped into the turd's lab and banned the hell out of it, declared it to be a pharmaceutical, and nobody manufactures it. I hope they grow old and rot in sanctimonious irony.

Pharmaceutical companies are now making molecules which affect testosterone receptors in a VERY unbalanced way, meaning a lady could take them to recover muscle mass and not start to look-a-like-a-man. This is a BIG fucking deal, as it has been the intent of androgen synthesis from the very beginning.

But - I can see where it's going already. Sports heroes and cheating and sportsmanship and little league and "won't somebody PLEASE think of the children!"

God damn I fucking hate jocks. Still, to this day, I fucking hate jocks.

Will you be my Health Minister? (Serious question)

Toby Christensen
5th September 09, 12:54 AM
As an unwilling consumer of pharma drugs and a rabid SFGOON fan, let me pose this question to ye all:

WHAT is so wrong with the development of the drug in question and distribution to vulnerable people through socialised health.

"There will always be money for 3 things
1. Helping stupid people reproduce
2. Pointless wars
3. Wanky acadaemia"
- Toby Christensen

Social policy has reached a point where we CAN blow up defenceless peasants at will AND underfund public health AND we have powerful medicines

Guess which wins?

nihilist
5th September 09, 04:08 AM
As an unwilling consumer of pharma drugs and a rabid SFGOON fan, let me pose this question to ye all:

WHAT is so wrong with the development of the drug in question and distribution to vulnerable people through socialised health.

"There will always be money for 3 things
1. Helping stupid people reproduce
2. Pointless wars
3. Wanky acadaemia"
- Toby Christensen

Social policy has reached a point where we CAN blow up defenceless peasants at will AND underfund public health AND we have powerful medicines

Guess which wins?
uH, democracy?

Toby Christensen
5th September 09, 04:46 AM
If democracy means "Majority rules" and the "majority rule" dictates fucking stupidity, then s'pose...

nihilist
5th September 09, 04:50 AM
Uh, "democracy"?