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Harpy
23rd July 09, 01:03 AM
I come from a skinny family. I am somewhat of an anomaly but at least I don't have an eating disorder and have a pretty normal relationship with food <insert joke>.

I used to 'eat to live' and not really take pleasure in food but I'd say the 'Nom Nom Nom' forum has made me realise that food can take you to your happy place and I've started experimenting in the kitchen and actually enjoyed it.

What food habits do you have? Is food an important part of your lifestyle? Do you spend a substantial amount of your income on good quality produce and/or kitchen utensils?

MEGA JESUS-SAMA
23rd July 09, 01:14 AM
u
r
fat

Harpy
23rd July 09, 01:19 AM
:))

(smiley with a double chin)

WarPhalange
23rd July 09, 01:40 AM
I have eaten dinner maybe 10 times in the past 40 days. I think a teenage girl takes in more calories than I do in a day.

Harpy
23rd July 09, 01:51 AM
PL - is it due to lack of appetite?

nihilist
23rd July 09, 01:53 AM
No it as to do with a lack of desire to look like a fat pig.

Harpy
23rd July 09, 01:56 AM
*edit to keep on topic*

Reese - what's your dream meal?

Cullion
23rd July 09, 02:04 AM
PL - is it due to lack of appetite?

In poop-loops case it will be laziness about shopping and cooking.

MEGA JESUS-SAMA
23rd July 09, 02:05 AM
you wouldn't believe how much laziness plays into me being thin
"boil spaghetti? fuuuuuck. drive out for food? drive?! fuuuuuuuuuuuuuck!"

Neildo
23rd July 09, 04:57 AM
i wish that worked for me.


i like having access to lots of decent cheap fast food (had a delicious lamb gyro and greek salad for lunch cost $7) because i hate cooking despite being good at it. it always takes me a fucking hour to prepare anything no matter how simple or difficult. goddamn onion gravy took over 2 hours yesterday and i was already hungry when i started.

Japuma
23rd July 09, 06:35 AM
i wish that worked for me.


i like having access to lots of decent cheap fast food (had a delicious lamb gyro and greek salad for lunch cost $7) because i hate cooking despite being good at it. it always takes me a fucking hour to prepare anything no matter how simple or difficult. goddamn onion gravy took over 2 hours yesterday and i was already hungry when i started.

This is why the slow cooker was invented. Place in said cooker, turn on low, let simmer for 8 hours while at work and Volia! Dinner's ready.

In fact heres a kick ass beef stew recipe for the slow cooker:
2 lbs cube beef (1")
1/4 cup flour
1/2 teaspoon each of salt and pepper
1 clove of minced garlic
1 bay leaf
1 teaspoon paprika
2 teaspoon worcestershire sauce
1 chopped onion (may be omited)
2 cups beef broth (less if you like a thicker stew)
3 cut up potatos
4 sliced carrots
1 sliced stalk of celery

Put meat in the cooker. Stir together flour, salt and pepper and pour on meat, while stirring to coat. Dump rest of the ingredients in to the cook and cover. Cook on low for 10 to 12 hours. Serve with bread or over rice.

Ajamil
23rd July 09, 07:30 AM
I'm round where Cullion's statement is. Hunger pangs only last for an hour before the body forgets it's hungry.

I've never really liked eating, the thought of a wonderfully prepared meal being turned to shit inside of me is saddening. Then again, I can eat like nobody's business when available. It's just a general attitude of complacency in life. I could spend an hour on a sandwich, enjoying the sensation every morsel, or I can go for weeks on nothing but mac & chz and multi-vitamins.

partyboy
23rd July 09, 07:53 AM
answer to thread topic:

your thighs seem to think so.

nihilist
23rd July 09, 08:24 AM
*edit to keep on topic*

Reese - what's your dream meal?

Any meal that does not include whale blubber, sow globules or cow fat.

EuropIan
23rd July 09, 08:28 AM
Whale blubber kinda tastes like brine, despite this it's not bad.

nihilist
23rd July 09, 08:46 AM
That may be true, but would you let your friends see you eating one?

HappyOldGuy
23rd July 09, 12:20 PM
To me, the key to enjoying food is to think about it. Cook, takeout, or restaurant, it's really easy to just roboticly chew and swallow. But if I stop slow down, and pay attention to what I am eating. It's a whole different experience.

I cooked one of the better meals I've had in a while two nights ago, and it was incredibly simple. Just meatloaf, mashed potatoes, gravy, and zuchinni with garlic. But it made the happyoldlady very happy because it was exactly what she wanted after a really rough day. And the food was tasty because I paid attention to the extra little touches (little ginger in the gravy, roasted garlic in the loaf).

And lily, big boobs cover a multitude of belly and backside sins. Don't sweat it.

nihilist
23rd July 09, 02:24 PM
Lily has reached unacceptable levels of blub (http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a148/gammagoblin/ewwfatbitch.jpg) and therefore must be destroyed.

Steve
23rd July 09, 02:36 PM
Food is fuel, imo. This has been a source of grief for me, esp in relationships.

Except for cheese, I eat that mostly when I crave it (well, when I'm hungry too).

WarPhalange
23rd July 09, 02:39 PM
In poop-loops case it will be laziness about shopping and cooking.

Bam.

The hunger goes away after the first hour of playing video games. But I am steadily changing my ways. Sort of. And it's the cooking, not the shopping that's the problem. Shopping takes all of 20 minutes including travel and standing in line. Not being a woman and all, I know exactly what I want.

It just turns out that when I get home I don't want to cook it. :(

Though, I don't really eat junk food. Cereal or a sandwich for breakfast. Lots of fruit. I snack on crackers or nuts usually (LOL PL EATS NUTS!!! HURR HURR) Have been making my own lunch lately, too. It's just dinner always seems like a hassle. =/

So that's the problem, Lily. Start enjoying healthier food. Fruits and veggies have almost 0 Calories. That's why the idiots who stop eating bread and eat salads instead think it's because they stopped eating carbs when in reality an entire onion has maybe 30 Calories.

WarPhalange
23rd July 09, 02:42 PM
To me, the key to enjoying food is to think about it. Cook, takeout, or restaurant, it's really easy to just roboticly chew and swallow. But if I stop slow down, and pay attention to what I am eating. It's a whole different experience.

Dude, no. The only thing that gets me through a meal is telling myself I need it to live. I rarely actively enjoy food, pretty much only fruit will let me do that. If I stop and think about the shitty Alberterson's ham I'm eating with the shitty processed cheese, I'll just want to put my sandwich down and cry myself to sleep. Since I tend to eat in the middle of class, that's not a good thing to do.

Zendetta
23rd July 09, 03:19 PM
I... have a pretty normal relationship with food

No, you don't. You have a tortured, twisted, self-loathing relationship with food, and your eating disorder is called "vegetarianism"

Do us both a favor. Run your tongue over the sharp edge of your front teeth. Note the sharper points on the canine teeth. Nature built these things so that you could tear flesh - this also allowed your evolutionary ancestors to develop bigger, more capable brains.

You simply would not have become "human" without your ancestors eating meat.

But now you think meat is murder, and it puts you at war with yourself. Like a Victorian who is terrified of their own sexuality, you strive to reject the predator part of your nature - and the things we supress have a tendency to come out in other, more perverse ways.

Perhaps it is cruel to take a life to support our own - in which case Nature is plainly a machine that runs on cruelty. Are you wiser than Nature? No.

Nature, Red in Tooth and Claw. Embrace it.

Cullion
23rd July 09, 03:23 PM
Like a Victorian who is terrified of their own sexuality, you strive to reject the predator part of your nature - and the things we supress have a tendency to come out in other, more perverse ways.

Estimates I've read from mainstream sources put the number of working prostitutes in London in 1881 at at least 50,000.

HappyOldGuy
23rd July 09, 03:30 PM
Estimates I've read from mainstream sources put the number of working prostitutes in London in 1881 at at least 50,000.
Betcha they ate some meat, knowhatimean, knowhatimean. Betcha they swallowed some pork. nudge nudge wink wink.

EuropIan
23rd July 09, 03:33 PM
That may be true, but would you let your friends see you eating one?
Only the ones from Greenland/Faroe Islands

bob
23rd July 09, 03:34 PM
I eat whatever I want and don't put on weight. Generally I eat pretty healthily though because I don't like the taste of junk food or how it makes me feel afterwards. But it's nice to know I can binge on a massive bit of mud cake without a qualm if I'm in the mood.

The flipside to this is that I have to eat regularly. If I don't eat pretty frequently I get irritable. And you wouldn't like me when I'm angry.

Favourite regular food: fresher than fresh bread. Sourdough, rye, pumpkin bread or just plain wholemeal straight out of the oven. Can't be beaten.

Favourite regular meal: Prawn and scallop pasta.

Indulgence: I eat chocolate pretty much every day of my life. When I realised this was something I'd find hard to give up I started learning to like dark chocolate, at least 70%, because it's a bit better for you. Can't eat most other chocolate now because they taste too sweet.

EuropIan
23rd July 09, 03:40 PM
Estimates I've read from mainstream sources put the number of working prostitutes in London in 1881 at at least 50,000.
But they were called "ladies of the evening" back then..so that made them more classy...They're ladies after all.

Cullion
23rd July 09, 03:43 PM
But they were called "ladies of the evening" back then..so that made them more classy...They're ladies after all.

As with everybody else in Victorian Britain, there were different classes of prostitute. At the top end of the scale were 'Adventuresses', much like Winston Churchill's mother, all the way down to syphillis-addled gin-soaked streetwalkers called 'Dollymops'. 'Actresses' came somewhere in the middle.

EuropIan
23rd July 09, 03:45 PM
You are an experienced John.

Cullion
23rd July 09, 03:47 PM
That's why you can trust Uncle Cullion's advice.

Ajamil
23rd July 09, 04:30 PM
No, you don't. You have a tortured, twisted, self-loathing relationship with food, and your eating disorder is called "vegetarianism"

Do us both a favor. Run your tongue over the sharp edge of your front teeth. Note the sharper points on the canine teeth. Nature built these things so that you could tear flesh - this also allowed your evolutionary ancestors to develop bigger, more capable brains.

You simply would not have become "human" without your ancestors eating meat.

But now you think meat is murder, and it puts you at war with yourself. Like a Victorian who is terrified of their own sexuality, you strive to reject the predator part of your nature - and the things we supress have a tendency to come out in other, more perverse ways.

Perhaps it is cruel to take a life to support our own - in which case Nature is plainly a machine that runs on cruelty. Are you wiser than Nature? No.

Nature, Red in Tooth and Claw. Embrace it.

The Victorian era, then, is a great example of why we don't have to continue the traits and habits of our ancestors. Why are you opposing behavioral evolution? Our ancestors also practiced cannibalism, genocide, infantcide, and harmful, unsustainable terraforming.

Cullion
23rd July 09, 04:37 PM
If Vegetariansm is an example of behavioural evolution, why has it been around such a long time ?

HappyOldGuy
23rd July 09, 04:42 PM
That's why you can trust Uncle Cullion's advice.

Is it time to talk about crab recipes then?

Zendetta
23rd July 09, 04:44 PM
crab recipes?

Some go well with butter.

Others go better with ointment.

jvjim
23rd July 09, 04:58 PM
I love food. It's delicious. Favorite foods (in order): pizza, sushi, pho ga, fried shrimp poboy, shrimp gumbo, gyro, nachos, reese's sonic blast, red beans/sausgae/and rice, mountain man egg omelete, peach cobbler, lasgauna, fried flounder, chilli, brocolli and cheese, and contemporary French cuisine. Fuck I'm so poor and hungry :(

Cullion
23rd July 09, 05:11 PM
I've just had another brilliant money making idea for you that will also keep you well fed.

Learn how to cook all those things, and then start up a food stall from a van that parks outside college dorms around 11pm til 3am. You can also sell weed to the cool people and occasionally pick up hammered college hotties from time to time.

Damn my ideas are good. I think I should be an intellectual.

jvjim
23rd July 09, 05:14 PM
Holy fuck, you're smart! Did you go to like college or something? I could modify a hot dog cart.

Harpy
23rd July 09, 05:15 PM
So that's the problem, Lily. Start enjoying healthier food. Fruits and veggies have almost 0 Calories. That's why the idiots who stop eating bread and eat salads instead think it's because they stopped eating carbs when in reality an entire onion has maybe 30 Calories.

PL - thank you for the sound advice. I generally eat pretty healthy and am vegetarian, don't eat fast food and I only drink water and green tea (I have my vices). I was just talking about 'enjoying food' :)

Cullion
23rd July 09, 05:20 PM
Holy fuck, you're smart! Did you go to like college or something?

I went to three but got kicked out of one of them. However, good ideas don't have to cost a penny in college tuition. A lot of my best ideas sort of come to me as if somebody standing behind me is whispering them in a distorted otherworldly voice. I'm thinking of offering a reasonably priced home study course via youtube.


I could modify a hot dog cart.

Or an ice cream truck. Ice cream trucks have sound systems.

Harpy
23rd July 09, 05:29 PM
A lot of my best ideas sort of come to me as if somebody standing behind me is whispering them in a distorted otherworldly voice.

Highly disturbing.

Harpy
23rd July 09, 05:35 PM
No, you don't. You have a tortured, twisted, self-loathing relationship with food, and your eating disorder is called "vegetarianism"

Do us both a favor. Run your tongue over the sharp edge of your front teeth. Note the sharper points on the canine teeth. Nature built these things so that you could tear flesh - this also allowed your evolutionary ancestors to develop bigger, more capable brains.

You simply would not have become "human" without your ancestors eating meat.

But now you think meat is murder, and it puts you at war with yourself. Like a Victorian who is terrified of their own sexuality, you strive to reject the predator part of your nature - and the things we supress have a tendency to come out in other, more perverse ways.


Nature, Red in Tooth and Claw. Embrace it.

Let me put your mind at rest. I don't suppress my instincts (thinking just in terms of 'food' is limited Zen) but I also have the ability to curb them, make choices that override my base instincts by using my more evolved reasoning capacity when I need or choose to. This makes me superior to you.

DAYoung
23rd July 09, 05:38 PM
Great little thread, Lily.

(Yes, I'm posting, and it's not Sunday. I'm in bed with the 'flu, and I've nothing better to do. Pray for me, Virus.)

On a tray next to the bed is fuel: two bananas, two apples, pineapple, two mandarins, and a bowl of jelly beans. I'm not really enjoying them, so much as using them to keep up energy and 'strength'.

This is how I see the 'food as fuel' chaps: as a bit like me when I'm weakened and exhausted by fever.

Spade: The Real Snake
23rd July 09, 05:43 PM
Lily is using food as a sex-substitute.

And, she lacks any discipline and self-control to eat for nutrition and instead uses food as a means of comfort.







































































PIGGAH!

Cullion
23rd July 09, 05:44 PM
Highly disturbing.

Not once you get used to it.

Harpy
23rd July 09, 05:46 PM
This is how I see the 'food as fuel' chaps: as a bit like me when I'm weakened and exhausted by fever.

Haha :) I hope you feel better soon D, lots of rest, stay upbeat and looks like you have the nutrition covered.

Snake - you're correct about the substitution, this will of course be fixed very soon.

Cullion
23rd July 09, 05:49 PM
Great little thread, Lily.

(Yes, I'm posting, and it's not Sunday. I'm in bed with the 'flu, and I've nothing better to do. Pray for me, Virus.)

On a tray next to the bed is fuel: two bananas, two apples, pineapple, two mandarins, and a bowl of jelly beans. I'm not really enjoying them, so much as using them to keep up energy and 'strength'.

This is how I see the 'food as fuel' chaps: as a bit like me when I'm weakened and exhausted by fever.

Try flushing your system with spicey food. It works for me.

Spade: The Real Snake
23rd July 09, 05:50 PM
Snake - you're correct about the substitution, this will of course be fixed very soon.
Going to the store to buy a nice plump summer sausage are we?

DAYoung
23rd July 09, 05:54 PM
Thanks, but I think I'll just wait this one out. Here's what I'm looking at: (I'm at day 3)

Day 1–3:
Sudden fever (temperature over 38 C), headache, muscle pain and
weakness, dry cough, sore throat and sometimes stuffed nose.

Day 4:
Fever and muscle aches decrease. Hoarse, dry or sore throat, cough and
possible mild chest discomfort become more noticeable. You may feel
tired, depressed or flat.

Day 8:
Symptoms decrease. Cough, tiredness and mild depression may last 1–2
weeks or more.

Harpy
23rd July 09, 05:55 PM
DA - What meds or vitamins are you taking? I prescribe a viewing of 'Pride and Prejudice'.


Does anyone else find that singing and listening to Italian music inspires their cooking?

HappyOldGuy
23rd July 09, 05:56 PM
Leper. Bar the gates!

EuropIan
23rd July 09, 05:59 PM
Does anyone else find that singing and listening to Italian music inspires their cooking?
Massive Attack, Mulatu Astatke, Turin Brakes or documentaries on the tv (actual documentaries)

Harpy
23rd July 09, 06:04 PM
Nice :)

I prefer a dash of Patrizio Bueno, The 10 Tenors, Billie Holiday and the like when I cook.

DAYoung
23rd July 09, 06:05 PM
DA - What meds or vitamins are you taking? I prescribe a viewing of 'Pride and Prejudice'.

I'm using Codral to keep the fever down, and stop the head and body pain.

I don't normally use medications of this sort, but this fever is ridiculous.

Harpy
23rd July 09, 06:09 PM
Get thee to an apothecary. Think of the children!

Paracetamol or Codral should be fine, Try rugging up (cover your neck and chest) and going for a walk if it is not too cold. Get some sunshine. I'm worried about you.

Eat your fruits, drink hot tea with honey. Make sure your bedclothes and sheets are changed daily and that the room is aired.

Cullion
23rd July 09, 06:28 PM
Does anyone else find that singing and listening to Italian music inspires their cooking?

I drink wine and have a conversation with whoever is in the kitchen whilst I'm cooking.

DAYoung
23rd July 09, 06:32 PM
Lily, I feel like going for a run, sitting in a cold room, and then getting all stressed, just to spite that smothering, goody-goody tone of yours.

Harpy
23rd July 09, 06:34 PM
^ That seems to be a real 'man' thing.

I hate having people in the kitchen when I cook. I need privacy and an empty home to express myself.

Harpy
23rd July 09, 06:38 PM
Lily, I feel like going for a run, sitting in a cold room, and then getting all stressed, just to spite that smothering, goody-goody tone of yours.

I don't practice what I preach. I go for 15km runs and MA practice with high fevers. I'll go to work, eat what I like, don't dress warmly etc. Do you really want to be like me?

No? Then stay in bed, you need to be cossetted.

Zendetta
23rd July 09, 06:39 PM
Let me put your mind at rest. I don't suppress my instincts (thinking just in terms of 'food' is limited Zen) but I also have the ability to curb them, make choices that override my base instincts by using my more evolved reasoning capacity when I need or choose to. This makes me superior to you.

"Holier Than Thou" =/= "superior", My Dear.

But I'm willing to gnaw on this gristlely nugget of nonsense: What makes you think eating meat is a "base instinct"?

There is clear evidence that early homonids would not have devloped large, proto-human brains without the fatty acids and other nutrients in meat.

WarPhalange
23rd July 09, 06:44 PM
PL - thank you for the sound advice. I generally eat pretty healthy and am vegetarian, don't eat fast food and I only drink water and green tea (I have my vices). I was just talking about 'enjoying food' :)
Oh. I didn't actually read your post, I just figured it was about being overweight because you are a woman talking about food.

Harpy
23rd July 09, 06:47 PM
"Holier Than Thou" =/= "superior", My Dear.

But I'm willing to gnaw on this gristlely nugget of nonsense: What makes you think eating meat is a "base instinct"?

There is clear evidence that early homonids would not have devloped large, proto-human brains without the fatty acids and other nutrients in meat.

I feel that your ingestion of dead carcasses has made you combative, irritable and possibly constipated. You are raring for a fight with a girl over the internet (one which you will lose). I accept your withdrawal from this discussion.

Good day.

DAYoung
23rd July 09, 06:47 PM
Then stay in bed, you need to be cossetted.

Now I'm undecided.

Just the idea of not being like you is appealing. Well played.

But I also think you're talking bollocks. (No-one runs with a temperature of 39+.)

Now, tell me more about this cossetting...

Harpy
23rd July 09, 06:51 PM
Now I'm undecided.

Just the idea of not being like you is appealing. Well played.

But I also think you're talking bollocks. (No-one runs with a temperature of 39+.)

Now, tell me more about this cossetting...

I do run and workout when I'm ill. Harden up Dr. Young.

Cossetting would involve a little pampering (getting a pedicure, being tucked into a clean bed, having a soothing atmosphere created just for you and possible an cinnamon+orange blossom aromatherapy candle burning). You would also have a little silver bell which you could tinkle when you required a silent handmaid to peel fruits for you or fluff your pillows.

Cullion
23rd July 09, 06:53 PM
Lily, if you actually do go for 9 mile runs when you have flu symptoms, you could very well kill yourself. Some types of viral infection which give you achey muscles can affect the heart muscle in ways which make it suffer an infarction when put under too much strain.

Harpy
23rd July 09, 06:59 PM
What if you're an experienced runner? I never had problems (okay, except for the fact that most years I could never shake off cold/flu symptoms for 6 months on end but that's probably because I don't take meds).

I don't lift weights when I have a raging fever as I don't trust myself not to collapse under their weight, but running comes easily to me. I don't drastically change my diet when I'm ill, I eat so as to have sufficient energy to continue with my normal routine. I find being positive, not making concessions for illness and believing myself well will help me recover.

Hiippy alert!

DAYoung
23rd July 09, 07:01 PM
I'm with Cullion on this. I've run/trained with a garden variety viral infection. But doing anything strenuous with genuine influenza is batshit.

On this 'cossetting', it needs more massage. And nudity.

Zendetta
23rd July 09, 07:04 PM
I feel that your ingestion of dead carcasses has made you combative, irritable and possibly constipated.

Oh, don't worry your pretty little head over all that - nature has equipped you and me both perfectly well for flesh-eating. I'm a vigorous omnivore who LOVES vegetables too, so getting plenty of fiber is not a problem.

As for the rest: its Man's Nature to Conquer.


You are raring for a fight with a girl over the internet (one which you will lose). I accept your withdrawal from this discussion.

No, not a fight, but I'd love an exposition from you on the "principles" of the self-loathing, anti-life philosophy that you feel so superior about.

I think it is based on False Conciousness. You know that crap only works in warm climates, right?


Good day.

Ah, its been a GREAT Day: boxing before work, fresh watermelon and earl grey for breakfast. Then I taught my class about Eastern Bodywork techniques and had a delicious fish and chips for lunch.

DAYoung
23rd July 09, 07:10 PM
Watermelon and tea is a weird combination.

Harpy
23rd July 09, 07:10 PM
I'm with Cullion on this. I've run/trained with a garden variety viral infection. But doing anything strenuous with genuine influenza is batshit.

I am gong-sauing both of you to share an influenza virus with me and run a half marathon. I find the massive endorphin high I get after a long hard run makes me feel good for about 30 minutes when I'm very ill, enough time to have a cool shower, eat and crash.




On this 'cossetting', it needs more massage. And nudity.
Massage is not recommended while you are unwell. Nudity would be fatal.

Zendetta
23rd July 09, 07:13 PM
Watermelon and tea is a weird combination.

Not at the same time, Guv'nor.

DAYoung
23rd July 09, 07:18 PM
Lily, you're a sweet kid. I like your pluck.

But in all cool, unbiased honesty: you're a little dim.

We can still be friends, it's ok. I'm happy to take you for ice cream, and to see cartoons.

But I do think we'll have to take the internet away from you.

DAYoung
23rd July 09, 07:20 PM
Not at the same time, Guv'nor.

Phew. Carry on, then, squire.

socratic
23rd July 09, 07:37 PM
We buy our beef at an Organic food store because there are no hormones or crap in it. Chicken and produce we just buy from Costco because the quality is good.

Pretty much everything is home-made. The only fast food I have is instant oatmeal and prepackaged Rajma Masala from the Indian food store.

That chicken has hormones and crap in it.

Harpy
23rd July 09, 08:42 PM
Lily, you're a sweet kid. I like your pluck.

But in all cool, unbiased honesty: you're a little dim.

We can still be friends, it's ok. I'm happy to take you for ice cream, and to see cartoons.

But I do think we'll have to take the internet away from you.

Office life + celibacy are the only excuses I can offer up publicly.

p.s. - I will want Rum and Raisin ice cream, without the dairy product when you take me to see Ice Age 3

DAYoung
23rd July 09, 08:55 PM
I can't help you with the celibacy, but I'm sure I can find you Rum n Raisin soy ice cream.

(And what's with the celibacy thing, anyway?)

Harpy
23rd July 09, 09:01 PM
"Holier Than Thou" =/= "superior", My Dear.

But I'm willing to gnaw on this gristlely nugget of nonsense: What makes you think eating meat is a "base instinct"?

There is clear evidence that early homonids would not have devloped large, proto-human brains without the fatty acids and other nutrients in meat

No, not a fight, but I'd love an exposition from you on the "principles" of the self-loathing, anti-life philosophy that you feel so superior about.


Zen - I'll be serious, never have I disagreed with the point about brain development. What you eat is your choice, I actually don't mind and have never attempted to preach or change anyone's decisions about such.

"Base instinct" is in reference to the hunt and your reference to such as well your implied meaning that vegetarians were somehow 'weak'. You brought that on.

I used to eat meat, I choose not to now for my reasons, who knows what I'll choose years down the track. I could be a raging carnivore tomorrow :)

In case you take the jokes about superiority seriously, let me assure you that it was just good natured ribbing.

Zendetta
23rd July 09, 09:30 PM
mmmm, ribbing.

Seriously though, whats with the celibacy?

Virus
23rd July 09, 09:34 PM
Zendetta; your arguments are appeals to nature and is-aught fallacies. Invalid.

Lilly; Vitamin supplements won't help kill a virus unless he's deficient.

OMG Codral with pseudoephidrine and codeine doesn't kill a virus but it sure gets you wacked enough to not care. I love that stuff when I'm sick.

DAYoung
23rd July 09, 09:36 PM
Let's be clear here: I've met Lily, and I can perfectly understand why she'd be celibate.

For one, any serious stress on that lumbering frame could do extensive damage.

Also, when you look like Lily, celibacy is simpler - you don't want to get drugs involved.

DAYoung
23rd July 09, 09:50 PM
is-aught fallacies. Invalid.

You know, sometimes I think appeals to the is-ought fallacy are fallacious.

There's no fallacy if an 'if' is involved.

For example: we evolved to eat meat, so IF you want to be healthy, you ought to eat meat.

Now, I'm not saying this obviously simple argument is true. I'm only demonstrating the movement from is to ought, where 'if' is the unfallacious mediator.

Zendetta
23rd July 09, 09:56 PM
Zendetta; your arguments are appeals to nature and is-aught fallacies. Invalid.

pssst - I was trolling her.

I'm well aware of the Naturalistic Fallacy - its one of my favorites!

However, several of my points were quite solid. Meat-eating was essential to human development, we are clearly adapted for omnivorism, and vegetarianism does not work in cold climates (unless you ship large quantities, in which case the fossil fuel use invalidates any environmental claims for vegetarianism).

Vegetarianism - well veganism anyway - draws all types of soft-headed sanctimonious hypocrites and so is ripe for trolling. You know, like you do with religion.

Virus
23rd July 09, 09:56 PM
That argument would be valid if it can be demonstrated that a health deficit would occur by not eating meat.

DAYoung
23rd July 09, 10:00 PM
That argument would be valid if it can be demonstrated that a health deficit would occur by not eating meat.

Are you replying to me, Virus? If so, I suspect you missed my point.

Harpy
23rd July 09, 10:05 PM
Let's be clear here: I've met Lily, and I can perfectly understand why she'd be celibate.

For one, any serious stress on that lumbering frame could do extensive damage.

Also, when you look like Lily, celibacy is simpler - you don't want to get drugs involved.

I totally understand that your meanness is inversely related to your wellbeing. For the good of mankind, my copious adiposity is at your service to make fun of.

Virus - :) thanks dude. I just dose up on Vit C and some Andrographis supplement if I'm surrounded by sick people. It's too late for DA to avoid getting the flu.

Zendetta
23rd July 09, 10:10 PM
That argument would be valid if it can be demonstrated that a health deficit would occur by not eating meat.

Well , now that you mention it, there is a stack of evidence for the fact that hunter-gatherers were considerably healthier individuals than agriculturalists.

DAYoung
23rd July 09, 10:12 PM
I totally understand that your meanness is inversely related to your wellbeing. For the good of mankind, my copious adiposity is at your service to make fun of.

Sorry. I'm just not into chubby blondes.

(Except Phillip Seymour Hoffman.)

Harpy
23rd July 09, 10:14 PM
Sorry. I'm just not into chubby blondes.

Cullion is going to be devastated.


Why do food threads always devolve into Omnivores vs. Herbivores? We need danno to draw some dino-sociociders battling it out.

DAYoung
23rd July 09, 10:21 PM
I agree.

I'd rather be talking 'bout tasty food, of any sort.

Harpy
23rd July 09, 10:33 PM
I get the feeling you're missing 'normal' food. And Scotch.

I'm eating a mandarin, keep me company and have some of the fruit your good wife left for you.

socratic
23rd July 09, 10:42 PM
That argument would be valid if it can be demonstrated that a health deficit would occur by not eating meat.

I can think of a lot of different cultures who would all die if they did not eat meat. Pretty much the only place you can naturally be vegan is South India.

socratic
23rd July 09, 10:44 PM
How does being anaemic feel, Lily and Virus? Does anyone really want to kiss blue lips?

socratic
23rd July 09, 10:47 PM
What I want to really know is if vegetarianism is so great, why is Lily a Sumo superheavyweight champ?

They don't even let women near the Sumo ring, but she was just so damn fat they had to let her in.

Harpy
23rd July 09, 10:53 PM
How does being anaemic feel, Lily and Virus? Does anyone really want to kiss blue lips?

Socratic - careful, you're probably shooting yourself in the foot (and you're not doing the fat jokes right).

I have excellent energy levels, no mood swings and I'd like to think being vegetarian has helped slow down signs of ageing.

When I was vegetarian I was severely anaemic but as my body coped to the change and I learned to eat right, I was fine. Yes my haemoglobin levels are lower than most but still within the normal range. Funnily enough, as a vegan for 6 years I never was anaemic.

I'd say Virus and I are pictures of good health.

MEGA JESUS-SAMA
23rd July 09, 10:58 PM
HEY GUYS
YOU GUYS
I'M VEGAN
YOU GUYS
I SAID I'M VEGAN

jvjim
23rd July 09, 11:03 PM
I'd say Virus and I are pictures of good health.
ur a BIG picture lol

HappyOldGuy
23rd July 09, 11:34 PM
Arguments about humans living hunter gatherer lifestyles in other climates are something i would really rather live up to them to discuss.

Among modern western populations, vegetarians are ridiculously more healthy on average than meat eaters, and have a lower carbon footprint.

They also taste less gamy and are higher in vitamin D and B12.

Harpy
24th July 09, 12:00 AM
^ don't think I haven't forgotten that comment about a fat belly et al

MEGA JESUS-SAMA
24th July 09, 12:33 AM
That probably has more to do with vegetarians being by necessity more wary of their dietary requirements. It's certainly easier to have a balanced and healthy diet when you include a little bit of meat.

HappyOldGuy
24th July 09, 12:47 AM
^ don't think I haven't forgotten that comment about a fat belly et al

Don't worry, I'm not going to eat you.

I'm watching my cholesterol.

Zendetta
24th July 09, 10:39 AM
HEY GUYS
YOU GUYS
I'M VEGAN
YOU GUYS
I SAID I'M VEGAN

Oh yeah right. We KNOW you eat "meat".

MaverickZ
24th July 09, 11:31 AM
I come from a skinny family. I am somewhat of an anomaly but at least I don't have an eating disorder and have a pretty normal relationship with food <insert joke>.
This is what fat people tell themselves and their fat friends to make themselves feel better about being fat. Obviously anyone who doesn't have a muffin top and bingo wings has an eating disorder.

nihilist
24th July 09, 12:17 PM
Oh yeah right. We KNOW you eat "meat".

He doesn't actually eat it per-se.
He just suckles the bone to get to the sweet marrow.

Spade: The Real Snake
24th July 09, 01:27 PM
and have a lower carbon footprint.
LOL.

I am off to go burn some weeds in the desert to offset this

MEGA JESUS-SAMA
24th July 09, 01:30 PM
Oh yeah right. We KNOW you eat "meat".

Well are you going to pull it out or not?

EuropIan
24th July 09, 02:12 PM
Well are you going to pull it out or not?
You can't tell if it's in or not, right?

Zendetta
24th July 09, 03:13 PM
Well are you going to pull it out or not?

What, you didn't get enough High-Protein Tonsil Wash at the Truckstop?

MEGA JESUS-SAMA
24th July 09, 03:24 PM
what makes you think i go for bigger dudes?

Zendetta
24th July 09, 03:31 PM
Its just that you have the scuffed knees of someone who kneels in parking lots.

Harpy
24th July 09, 06:57 PM
Its called Brazilian Jiujitsu these days.

Zendetta
24th July 09, 07:10 PM
lol, good one!

socratic
25th July 09, 03:47 AM
I have excellent energy levels, no mood swings and I'd like to think being vegetarian has helped slow down signs of ageing.

When I was vegetarian I was severely anaemic but as my body coped to the change and I learned to eat right, I was fine. Yes my haemoglobin levels are lower than most but still within the normal range. Funnily enough, as a vegan for 6 years I never was anaemic.

I'd say Virus and I are pictures of good health.

Are you fucking kidding me? Obesity kills more people that smoking. How do you manage to be vegan for six years yet fat? What, you eat everything with ghee and a side of yoghurt?


Arguments about humans living hunter gatherer lifestyles in other climates are something i would really rather live up to them to discuss.

Among modern western populations, vegetarians are ridiculously more healthy on average than meat eaters, and have a lower carbon footprint.

They also taste less gamy and are higher in vitamin D and B12.

Except for the women, who are aenemic due to their bad habit of bleeding on a semiregular basis and low-iron diets [unless you go out of your way to eat iron-rich foods]. Generalisation I know but I've met many female vegetarians with diet-induced health problems yet have not met anyone who ate meat regularly who was aenemic; at least, no one aenemic because of dietary reasons. Notably spinach is high in iron but also high in a chemical inhibitor of iron absobtion.

Cullion
25th July 09, 04:52 AM
Vegans don't eat yoghurt and ghee.

DAYoung
25th July 09, 04:57 AM
Fair point.

Also, vegans sometimes get fat because they eat too many carbs.

EuropIan
25th July 09, 04:58 AM
Atkins ftw?

Cullion
25th July 09, 04:59 AM
Among modern western populations, vegetarians are ridiculously more healthy on average than meat eaters,

How are you defining 'health' ? They're certainly physically weaker on average, although I'll give you that they're less likely to suffer from coronary disease.

Cullion
25th July 09, 05:00 AM
Atkins ftw?

Paleo diet, if you can afford it. I didn't just lose fat, I felt really healthy and energetic once my body got used to the big reduction in carbs (though it's not as severe as Atkins).

Cullion
25th July 09, 05:39 AM
What if you're an experienced runner? I never had problems (okay, except for the fact that most years I could never shake off cold/flu symptoms for 6 months on end but that's probably because I don't take meds).

I don't lift weights when I have a raging fever as I don't trust myself not to collapse under their weight, but running comes easily to me. I don't drastically change my diet when I'm ill, I eat so as to have sufficient energy to continue with my normal routine. I find being positive, not making concessions for illness and believing myself well will help me recover.

Hiippy alert!

I'm passing on this info partly remembered from an old work colleague. He started out as a medical doctor but left to become a software engineer after the stress of working long hours in A & E training to be a trauma surgeon got to him.

He told me that there's a specific virus which has the same symptoms as a cold or mild flu which can be lethal if you put your heart under strain with strenuous exercise. I cannot remember the damn name.

He was a fit guy who exercises hard 4-5 days a week but he would not go near a treadmill if he had any cold or flu symptoms just in case he had this specific virus.

He said that it was the cause of suprising numbers of apparently healthy, lean young people with no prior heart problems dropping dead whilst working out.

socratic
25th July 09, 05:48 AM
Vegans don't eat yoghurt and ghee.

True.


Fair point.

Also, vegans sometimes get fat because they eat too many carbs.

They shouldn't be eating bread or pasta, so that leaves rice, which on a vegan diet is more a boon than anything.


I'm passing on this info partly remembered from an old work colleague. He started out as a medical doctor but left to become a software engineer after the stress of working long hours in A & E training to be a trauma surgeon got to him.

He told me that there's a specific virus which has the same symptoms as a cold or mild flu which can be lethal if you put your heart under strain with strenuous exercise. I cannot remember the damn name.

He was a fit guy who exercises hard 4-5 days a week but he would not go near a treadmill if he had any cold or flu symptoms just in case he had this specific virus.

He said that it was the cause of suprising numbers of apparently healthy, lean young people with no prior heart problems dropping dead whilst working out.

It's also worth noting with this story that medical professionals are known to have very high rates of anxiety disorders such as obsessive compulsive. I think to go through the effort those guys do you'd either start a little nuts or start fine and end a little nuts.

DAYoung
25th July 09, 05:56 AM
Socratic, why can't vegans dig on bread and pasta? Not all of these have animal ingredients.

Kiko
25th July 09, 08:11 AM
http://failblog.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/fail-owned-carnivore-win.jpg


I had filet mignon with bernaise and a nice red wine last night. After a hellish week at work, I finally feel human again! *bares fangs and sharpens claws*

EuropIan
25th July 09, 08:16 AM
Socratic, why can't vegans dig on bread and pasta? Not all of these have animal ingredients.
bread and pasta simulacrum

Kiko
25th July 09, 08:18 AM
Carb-Golem? How many HPs does it have?

EuropIan
25th July 09, 08:23 AM
6 hd monster

Kiko
25th July 09, 08:32 AM
http://images.icanhascheezburger.com/completestore/2009/3/20/128820500875841714.jpg

HappyOldGuy
25th July 09, 11:53 AM
How are you defining 'health' ? They're certainly physically weaker on average, although I'll give you that they're less likely to suffer from coronary disease.

I'd be interested in a cite.

Virus
26th July 09, 04:21 AM
Except for the women, who are aenemic due to their bad habit of bleeding on a semiregular basis and low-iron diets [unless you go out of your way to eat iron-rich foods]. Generalisation I know but I've met many female vegetarians with diet-induced health problems yet have not met anyone who ate meat regularly who was aenemic; at least, no one aenemic because of dietary reasons. Notably spinach is high in iron but also high in a chemical inhibitor of iron absobtion.

Appeal to anecdote.

DAYoung
26th July 09, 04:29 AM
Nothing wrong with evidence from anecdotes, Virus - as long as a) you trust the source and b) you place some limits on the generalisability of the data and conclusions.

Virus
26th July 09, 05:22 AM
There's a lot wrong with evidence from anecdotes. They are subject to confirmation bias, poor sampling , they are dependent on memory, they're unverifiable and uncontrolled.

Cullion
26th July 09, 05:35 AM
Socratic, why can't vegans dig on bread and pasta? Not all of these have animal ingredients.

Pasta's made with egg.

DAYoung
26th July 09, 05:36 AM
They're also invaluable for understanding fellow human beings.

Don't be so quick to trivialise anything that's not aping the scientific model.

(Just as an aside, I suspect your criticisms of anecdotes would apply to your ideas of religion.)

Cullion
26th July 09, 05:36 AM
There's a lot wrong with evidence from anecdotes. They are subject to confirmation bias, poor sampling , they are dependent on memory, they're unverifiable and uncontrolled.

You're an idiot.

DAYoung
26th July 09, 05:37 AM
Pasta's made with egg.

Not all pasta.

And some eggs are friendlier (e.g. 'Vegans' eat them).

Cullion
26th July 09, 05:38 AM
You can buy vegetable eggs ?

DAYoung
26th July 09, 05:44 AM
Mmmmm...vegetable eggs...

I was thinking of chicken-friendly ones, e.g. free range, organic, massaged by virginal Tibetan princesses, etc

Virus
26th July 09, 06:09 AM
You're an idiot.

You're right. People's internet stories are the best way of assessing truth.

Cullion
26th July 09, 06:12 AM
You're an idiot.

EuropIan
26th July 09, 06:14 AM
Why?

Cullion
26th July 09, 06:17 AM
He's willfully trying to force all worthwhile human knowledge into a scientific paradigm where it doesn't fit. Because he's a fucking idiot.

EuropIan
26th July 09, 06:21 AM
I see.

It is my experience that women are generally more anemic than men and many of these women happen to be vegetarians. Do you guys think it's because their dietay choices or is there something else to this?

Cullion
26th July 09, 06:22 AM
I thought it was God's punishment for eating that apple.

EuropIan
26th July 09, 06:23 AM
So you're saying it's linked to the menstrual cycle?

Cullion
26th July 09, 06:24 AM
Well, bleeding for several days once a month does make women more prone to anaemia.

Vegetarianism doesn't help.

Virus
26th July 09, 06:31 AM
He's willfully trying to force all worthwhile human knowledge into a scientific paradigm where it doesn't fit. Because he's a fucking idiot.

Lol. We're discussing if vegetarian women have increased rates of anemia and you think scientific methods don't apply.

Cullion
26th July 09, 06:33 AM
Lol. We're discussing if vegetarian women have increased rates of anemia and you think scientific methods don't apply.

No, that's not what I think.

Have you ever been tested for aspergers or other autistic spectrum disorders ?

EuropIan
26th July 09, 06:40 AM
It's ok Cullion..I speak Virusese

Iron deficiency and anemia in vegetarian mothers and their newborns (http://www.springerlink.com/content/u3g266v82q681t21/)

Virus
26th July 09, 06:45 AM
He's willfully trying to force all worthwhile human knowledge into a scientific paradigm where it doesn't fit.

Read your own posts. That's what you said.

Cullion
26th July 09, 06:47 AM
Yes, as part of a larger context including other posts. You're still an idiot.

Virus
26th July 09, 07:02 AM
Your case consists entirely of ad hominems. In other words, you don't have one.

EuropIan
26th July 09, 07:06 AM
*ahem*

Cullion
26th July 09, 07:11 AM
Your case consists entirely of ad hominems. In other words, you don't have one.

Other than the paper Ian posted ?

Yes, vegetarians are more likely to suffer from Anaemia. I don't know why that would bother you, you've already admitted this isn't a rational choice.

Virus
26th July 09, 07:20 AM
Never said it wasn't true. I was disagreeing with the validity of anecdotes.

EuropIan
26th July 09, 07:31 AM
anecdotal evidence is what some people make hypotheses on.

Virus
26th July 09, 07:34 AM
I agree.

Spade: The Real Snake
26th July 09, 09:23 AM
I toast this thread with a mug of beef gravy.

EuropIan
26th July 09, 09:25 AM
I agree.
I meant it as a good thing

HappyOldGuy
26th July 09, 12:25 PM
Since Cullion would rather poke Virus with a stick, I had to go find my own cites.

It turns out that there is what looks like good research on the subject, and it's mixed. But it looks like you can say that vegetarians are generally physically less strong due to lower protein intake, possibly lower testosterone, and especially lower muscle creatine levels, although they are somewhat better on average at endurance tasks (probably due to lower BMI). Those are manageable with supplmenets, but Cullions point does appear to be valid.

http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S0899900704001066
http://www.emeraldinsight.com/Insight/viewContentItem.do?contentId=866222&contentType=Article
http://www.biomedexperts.com/Abstract.bme/1435181/Serum_sex_hormones_and_endurance_performance_after _a_lacto-ovo_vegetarian_and_a_mixed_diet


So go ahead an abuse Virus, it's pretty obvious he's not going to be able to do anything about it.

Cullion
26th July 09, 12:36 PM
They perform more poorly at endurance tasks where there's any kind of substantial resistance involved or they have to cope with a cold environment. Cross-country skiing, loaded marches across rough terrain etc.. Look at a polar explorer's diet. You just needs your animal fats for some jobs. It's not just a highly-concentrated source of calories, it's also a very important precursor for testosterone production.

Basically the main physiological advantage of vegetarianism is that it's on average a lower calorie diet, doesn't tend to result in as much arterial furring and they avoid the hormones and drugs used in mass-produced meat in some countries. This helps them not get fat, on average, which of course helps with low-intensity endurance tasks involving carrying ones own bodyweight. I would also have no trouble accepting a longer average lifespan for vegetarians, but they really suffer in certain aspects of 'brute' physical performance. Look at the asian cultures where the priestly/scholarly types were vegetarians. Then look at those same culture's 'warrior' castes. Right at the top of the carnivorous bell-curve of their society. Every time.

The Testosterone/Oestrogen differences are partly due to soy consumption. It interferes with the body's hormone production.

I think the best vegetarian diets for somebody looking to maintain muscle mass and have a physically demanding lifestyle are those where they eat plenty of nuts and eggs rather than going for soy protein, but it would still fucking suck to try and live on a vegetarian diet if you were a lumberjack or infantry soldier or something like that.

Basically these studies are just codifying one of the reaons why eskimos, himalayans and laplanders eat shitloads of animal fat, the other obvious reason being availability.

Ajamil
26th July 09, 12:40 PM
You can buy vegetable eggs ? I think they're called fruit.

Of course there's going to be differences in your body if your diet is so radically different. What's important is quality of life, and one of the biggest factors in quality of life is whether you compare yourself to your peers. The less you do, the happier you are, but for those who have to make the comparison, vegetarianism let's you be a sanctimonious prick and think you're better than everyone.

So your quality of life is better as a veggie.

HappyOldGuy
26th July 09, 03:49 PM
Basically these studies are just codifying one of the reaons why eskimos, himalayans and laplanders eat shitloads of animal fat, the other obvious reason being availability.

I'm agreeing with your main point, but you are picking odd supporting examples. None of those cultures have alternative food sources. And you are still going too far in the tough guy/wimp direction. Nothing there supports your assertions about forced marches etc. Metabolically or in terms of populations.

DAYoung
26th July 09, 05:43 PM
Bullshido exists because this is partly correct. Although your phrasing ('assessing truth') is a bit clunky.

Speaking of which, Virus. You know, I like you - I admire your passion and diligence. I repect your move from ninja cult monkey to grown-up fighter. But your scientism, and your native rationalism and reductionism are a bad combination.

I doubt you'd 'see' truth, even if it were tattoeed on the end of your willy.


You're right. People's internet stories are the best way of assessing truth.

Cullion
26th July 09, 05:52 PM
I'm agreeing with your main point, but you are picking odd supporting examples. None of those cultures have alternative food sources. And you are still going too far in the tough guy/wimp direction. Nothing there supports your assertions about forced marches etc. Metabolically or in terms of populations.

Oh it's all anecdotal. You've got to understand that I'm talking at somebody, rather than to them.

Harpy
26th July 09, 05:54 PM
They perform more poorly at endurance tasks where there's any kind of substantial resistance involved or they have to cope with a cold environment. Cross-country skiing, loaded marches across rough terrain etc.. Look at a polar explorer's diet. You just needs your animal fats for some jobs. It's not just a highly-concentrated source of calories, it's also a very important precursor for testosterone production.


I think the best vegetarian diets for somebody looking to maintain muscle mass and have a physically demanding lifestyle are those where they eat plenty of nuts and eggs rather than going for soy protein, but it would still fucking suck to try and live on a vegetarian diet if you were a lumberjack or infantry soldier or something like that.

Cullion - some good points, however I'd like to remind you that most of the population don't partake in high endurance sports or physically demanding lifestyles. You are comparing vegetarians' endurance to an elite trained group of people.

As to struggling with endurance exercises involving resistance, I'd take you (pound for pound).

Cullion
26th July 09, 06:03 PM
As to struggling with endurance exercises involving resistance, I'd take you (pound for pound).

Well Lily, from what I know of you, you're a very determined, physically fit person, and I'm not going to let my personal love of meat eating turn into a cheap slanging match. I admit that at present I'm dealing in anecdotes, but what I would like to point out is that you live in a hot climate and you might not have any personal experience with hard manual labour in the cold. My understanding is that much of your personal fitness routine revolves around things that are assisted by low BMI, like uneumbered running in a hot climate.

I think my points might make more instinctive sense wre you to take on some lengthy treks across Britain or Sweden with a heavy pack.

DAYoung
26th July 09, 06:10 PM
My mother-in-law talks about the English winters making her want to eat sausages, roast beef, egg bakes - you know, stodgy, meaty fatty stuff.

And she eats like a sparrow.

Harpy
26th July 09, 06:13 PM
I think my points might make more instinctive sense wre you to take on some lengthy treks across Britain or Sweden with a heavy pack.

Does living in the southern most city in the world (New Zealand) count? I learnt my love for cross-country running and hiking there as a child/young teen?

Cullion
26th July 09, 06:15 PM
Craving animal fat is a natural response to cold weather. It can be very bad for you in the long run, as we all know, but there are straightforward physilological reasons why we crave it.

EuropIan
26th July 09, 06:15 PM
Were you a vegitarian back then?

Cullion
26th July 09, 06:15 PM
Does living in the southern most city in the world (New Zealand) count? I learnt my love for cross-country running and hiking there as a child/young teen?

It depends how often you saw frost and snow, and whether or not you gave up meat whilst you were still living there.

Harpy
26th July 09, 06:16 PM
Also, vegetarians have a higher chance of developing athlerosclerosis (hardening of the arteries). I can't be bothered finding the studies but just want to make the point I don't believe I am 'healthier because I'm vegetarian'.

Cullion
26th July 09, 06:17 PM
I honestly feel like this thread is no longer about 'meat eaters' vs 'veggies' as much as it is about people who are used to snow and frost in their environment vs. people who aren't.

Harpy
26th July 09, 06:18 PM
So Brits vs. Aussies?

EuropIan
26th July 09, 06:19 PM
icwutudidthar

Cullion
26th July 09, 06:20 PM
So Brits vs. Aussies?

Maybe.

DAYoung
26th July 09, 06:36 PM
Let's name some hot climates with high meat and fat diets.

Harpy
26th July 09, 06:39 PM
Tonga

HappyOldGuy
26th July 09, 06:41 PM
Let's name some hot climates with high meat and fat diets.

Most of the middle east outside the agricultural zones.

DAYoung
26th July 09, 06:42 PM
Standard of living and life expectancy?

HappyOldGuy
26th July 09, 06:43 PM
Generally shitty, but I was more talking about history. I'm not honestly sure about their modern diets.

Ajamil
26th July 09, 06:49 PM
Let's name some hot climates with high meat and fat diets.
Texas.

But hows central Africa for serious answers? Too hot and dry for vegetation.

DAYoung
26th July 09, 07:13 PM
What's a typical Central African diet?

Harpy
26th July 09, 07:23 PM
From Wikipedia:

'The everyday Central African diet consists of mostly milk, curds and whey.'

Other commonly used ingredients are plaintain and cassava, so high starch here. Seems like chicken (when available) is used during festivals and other important ceremonies.

Not exactly high fat.

MaverickZ
26th July 09, 07:36 PM
Standard of living and life expectancy?
Not sure the rhetorical answer to this is related to the meat diet of the middle east. I think there are more factors involved.

As long as personal anecdotes are fair game, One of my grandfathers, an Armenian, lived to his middle 90s. His typical diet was high meat and high fat.

Ajamil
26th July 09, 07:39 PM
I was way wrong on that one. My thoughts were on the goat and cow ranchers. I know there's a culture with ritualized blood drinking from their herds, but I guess the meat doesn't enter into the diet as much as the milk.

MaverickZ
26th July 09, 07:40 PM
I was way wrong on that one. My thoughts were on the goat and cow ranchers. I know there's a culture with ritualized blood drinking from their herds, but I guess the meat doesn't enter into the diet as much as the milk.
Animals are expensive. A cow can keep giving milk, once you eat the cow though, that's all there is.

Harpy
26th July 09, 07:52 PM
*blargh* can't talk about this blood drinking stuff without feeling ill. Arjuna...you're thinking of the Masai tribe. I don't know about 'ritualised' though.

DAYoung
26th July 09, 08:10 PM
Not sure the rhetorical answer to this is related to the meat diet of the middle east. I think there are more factors involved.

As long as personal anecdotes are fair game, One of my grandfathers, an Armenian, lived to his middle 90s. His typical diet was high meat and high fat.

Yeah, I thought there might've been older information, when the region was more peace-

Forget it.

So what do Armenians eat?

MaverickZ
26th July 09, 08:16 PM
Yeah, I thought there might've been older information, when the region was more peace-

Forget it.

So what do Armenians eat?
These days? Anything they can find. Traditionally, lots of lamb and tomatos. And yogurt. And kutabi.. mmmm kutabi...

Virus
26th July 09, 09:10 PM
Bullshido exists because this is partly correct. Although your phrasing ('assessing truth') is a bit clunky.

Speaking of which, Virus. You know, I like you - I admire your passion and diligence. I repect your move from ninja cult monkey to grown-up fighter. But your scientism, and your native rationalism and reductionism are a bad combination.


Well, I don't entirely agree with your charge of scientism but I respect your intellectualism so I'll give your comments some consideration.

PS: I'd be disappointed if my most redeeming feature was that "He did Bujinkan and then he stopped doing it."

Regarding vegetarian diets and athletic performance, I've been browsing OVID and have not found any studies that indicate meat lends a performance advantage. I'm willing to accept that it might be true. The evidence I have seen indicates that performance is comparable between veg and non veg which is congruent with the position of organizations such as Sports Medicine Australia and the Australian Institute of Sport.

MaverickZ
26th July 09, 09:18 PM
Well, I don't entirely agree with your charge of scientism but I respect your intellectualism so I'll give your comments some consideration.
That's it ladies and gentlemen, thread over. Everyone can go home.

DAYoung
26th July 09, 09:27 PM
Virus, many are still doing it.

But no, your most redeeming features are:

1. Your dogged pursuit of X. I don't know what X is, but I respect your single-mindedness.

2. Your contradictions. For example, the rationalist, materialist science hammer is also a vegetarian.

3. Your avatars.

MaverickZ
26th July 09, 09:50 PM
You know, the Imperium views the Emperor of mankind as a god.

DAYoung
26th July 09, 09:53 PM
I dearly wish I knew what you were talking about. 'Cause I think I'd like it.

MaverickZ
26th July 09, 09:59 PM
The mythology behind the Warhammer 40,000 gaming universe is surprisingly deep and interesting. Too bad you have to get through the gaming, the gaming nerds, and the bad book tie-ins to get to it.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Emperor
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperium_(Warhammer_40,000)

If this catches your fancy, google for the Fluff Bible PDF file.

The long and short of the reference is Virus' avatars are all Imperial space marines, intensely religiously devoted to the Emperor of Mankind. So it's funny that Virus uses them when he's a militant atheist.

Harpy
26th July 09, 10:20 PM
How can you be vegan for six years yet fat? What, you eat everything with ghee and a side of yoghurt?

You've been corrected about ghee and yoghurt in a vegan diet. As to getting fat, I used to eat about 7-8 times a day (I'm not joking) during my vegan years and I ate extremely well in terms of getting all my necessary vitamins/minerals, fats, carbs etc.. The vegan years were when I was most physically active. Now I'm vegetarian (its been about half a year now) I find I'm putting on weight much more easily, which I don't want!


Generalisation I know but I've met many female vegetarians with diet-induced health problems yet have not met anyone who ate meat regularly who was aenemic; at least, no one aenemic because of dietary reasons.
Stop making generalisations then. I have many female friends who eat meat and are anaemic.



Notably spinach is high in iron but also high in a chemical inhibitor of iron absobtion.
All it takes is a squeeze of lemon juice on your spinach and voila! Problem solved.

DAYoung
26th July 09, 10:59 PM
Thanks, Mav. I'll look into this a little more.

Maybe Virus has a sense of irony?

NAH...


The mythology behind the Warhammer 40,000 gaming universe is surprisingly deep and interesting. Too bad you have to get through the gaming, the gaming nerds, and the bad book tie-ins to get to it.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Emperor
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperium_(Warhammer_40,000)

If this catches your fancy, google for the Fluff Bible PDF file.

The long and short of the reference is Virus' avatars are all Imperial space marines, intensely religiously devoted to the Emperor of Mankind. So it's funny that Virus uses them when he's a militant atheist.

Virus
27th July 09, 01:00 AM
There are many moderate Space Marines that view the Emperor as a metaphor for inner spiritual struggle. You're picking on the extremists.

EuropIan
27th July 09, 03:06 AM
ermmm alll your avatars are Dark Angels.. A chapter trying to redeem themselves in the eyes of the Emperor for sins committed in the past.


P.S. I can't believe I know this

DAYoung
27th July 09, 03:07 AM
This thread has it all, I swear.

EuropIan
27th July 09, 03:09 AM
true irony would be if he loved Blood Angels instead.

They eat people.

DAYoung
27th July 09, 03:39 AM
We need a Virus Warhammer character.

Virus
27th July 09, 03:47 AM
true irony would be if he loved Blood Angels instead.

They eat people.

I like the color scheme of the BA better but they don't have the robes and hoods of the DA.

MaverickZ
27th July 09, 09:01 AM
There are many moderate Space Marines that view the Emperor as a metaphor for inner spiritual struggle. You're picking on the extremists.
They're called heretics, and the Inquisition deals quickly and decisively with them.

Besides, everyone knows that the only viable unbiased party in the Imperium are the Rogue Traders.


I like the color scheme of the BA better but they don't have the robes and hoods of the DA.
You could do what the rest of the mouthbreathing population of the W40K gamers does and create your own chapter with a complicated Mary-Sue-ed background and color scheme.

HappyOldGuy
27th July 09, 10:52 AM
I think my withchunters lack irony. :(

Cullion
27th July 09, 11:28 AM
Paleo diets in hotter climates tend on average to have less meat than paleo diets in cold climates, but pre- or quasi- agricultural diets on the whole are higher in meat than modern agricultural diets.

Although some Kenyan tribesmen basically live on a diet consisting entirely of what they can get from their cattle. Beef, fresh milk and then sometimes they make a nick on the cow and stick a piece of straw in and suck blood (without killing the cow) to get sustenance whilst driving the herd long distances.

The Emporer of Mankind of course lives on the extracted souls of errant psychics who are offered up to his golden life-support throne to keep the all-protecting beacon of the warp aflame.

Zendetta
27th July 09, 12:38 PM
I was disagreeing with the validity of anecdotes.

When Science does it they're called "Case Studies".

Virus
27th July 09, 05:58 PM
No.

Cullion
27th July 09, 05:59 PM
Yes!

HappyOldGuy
27th July 09, 06:01 PM
Fire cleanses!

Summon the arco-flaggelents.

MaverickZ
27th July 09, 06:43 PM
"Burn the heretic. Kill the mutant. Purge the unclean."
http://www.myconfinedspace.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/warhammer-40k-inquisition-500x368.jpg

DAYoung
27th July 09, 06:48 PM
When Science does it they're called "Case Studies".

Yep.

And what does this mean?

It means this: anecdotes are fine, in principle. The question is what you do with the information.

Cullion
27th July 09, 06:55 PM
I like to use pithily worded anecdotes to confirm existing prejudices which I gather by psychic means, and then wait for the 'detail people' to prove me right. It's so satisfying and so much less work.

Virus
28th July 09, 06:22 AM
Anecdote vs. Case Study

A case study is a method of analyzing an effect in a particular instance. Case studies can be beneficial, for example, in medicine; it can be advantageous to closely examine the course of a disease from the earliest possible detection, or examine in detail the effects of a certain drug fighting a disease.

The main difference between an anecdote and a case study is the basic lack of evidence for an anecdote, other than the purported witness testimony (made even weaker in the case of a friend-of-a-friend anecdote). Case studies, on the other hand, are well-documented and supported, even published and peer-reviewed.

However, even case studies make for weak scientific evidence. They can give scientists and researchers valuable information and ideas leading to more discoveries, and can certainly confirm that a particular event occurred, at least in that one case. However, for any useful scientific conclusions to be drawn a full study of a number of cases, properly selected, and enough to be statistically significant, must be performed. For example, just seeing how a single patient reacts to a certain medication is not in itself proof of anything, certainly not compared to a full double-blind placebo-controlled study.

If case studies, rigorously applied and documented, make for such weak evidence, then it's easy to see that anecdotes really don't tell us anything of any scientific value.

http://skepticwiki.org/index.php/Anecdotal_evidence

socratic
28th July 09, 07:17 AM
Animal fats by themselves are an integral part of the healthy diet; you've done the paleo diet Cullion so you know how utter bullshit the saturated 'fat = bad' is.

As for longevity... The Okinawans who are the most long-lived peoples do not eat vegetarian diets. The centenarians tend to be hard working [often agriculturalists], physically fit as a result, and eat small amounts of food [eat enough to be satiated, but not 'stuffed' is their mantra] which tends to consist of rice, fresh vegetables [often home-grown] and seafood. Traditionally Japanese peoples ate similarly; they did not drink milk [a very famous shogun lived quite a long time thanks to his uncharacteristic drinking of milk]. Once meat dominated attitudes began to pervade Japanese diets they started growing taller, and at the same time obesity began to rise, although that's in no way solely due to increasing consuming of meat. Speculation abounds re: okinawan diets as to what the magic is; notably many things traditional to Japanese and Okinawan diets have anti-aging and anti-cancer properties [ocha, natto and nori for example.] Some say it is their philosophy that matters; how they do not overindulge. Remember of course that rural Okinawa is considerably less poluted than your average Los Angeles.

As for physical prowess, no serious numbers of elite athletes are vegetarian. To maintain proper amounts of protein and raw energy for such a rigorous lifestyle really the easiest way is eating meat. There'd be little difference in athletic performance for vegetarians if they could maintain the required nutrient levels for their activities. However, this is simply a shitload more dietary work, so everyone says "Why bother with that hippy shit?" and doesn't bother with that hippy shit.

socratic
28th July 09, 07:19 AM
Lily, rapid weight gain can often occur after periods of 'starvation'. Bodybuilders spend a great deal of time trying to figure out how to fast [you don't have to be not eating to be fasting] yet prevent muscle loss or immediate fat-gain once 'regular' diet is resumed. I'd consider if maybe a) there's something wrong with my current diet/lifestyle and b) if maybe there was something wrong with my previous diet/lifestyle if my bodyfat suddenly spiked.

Ajamil
28th July 09, 12:18 PM
What is your source on Okinawans being the longest lived people? Is this in terms of average lifespan, or percentage of people reaching a certain age?

DAYoung
28th July 09, 04:41 PM
http://skepticwiki.org/index.php/Anecdotal_evidence

"other than the purported witness testimony"

I like the whopping great exception.

socratic
28th July 09, 05:45 PM
What is your source on Okinawans being the longest lived people? Is this in terms of average lifespan, or percentage of people reaching a certain age?


They have comparitively huge numbers of centenarians, who are extremely healthy mentally and physically for their age. I think it's actually both; they have a longer life expectancy [which means on average their people live longer].


Elderly Okinawans have among the lowest mortality rates in the world from a multitude of chronic diseases of aging and as a result enjoy not only what may be the world's longest life expectancy but the world's longest health expectancy. Centenarians, in particular, have a history of aging slowly and delaying or sometimes escaping the chronic diseases of aging including dementia, cardiovascular disease (coronary heart disease and stroke) and cancer. The goal of the Okinawa Centenarian Study is to uncover the genetic and lifestyle factors responsible for this remarkable successful aging phenomenon for the betterment of the health and lives of all people.

http://www.okicent.org/

But I already knew this as prior knowledge. Docos on TV and whatnot. Still, very interesting facts and figures on that site.

Virus
28th July 09, 08:35 PM
"other than the purported witness testimony"

I like the whopping great exception.

The wording is a little poor but it means the only thing supporting an anecdote is the testimony itself. ie. someone said it. But case studies are documented, relevant factors are measured, they are published and undergo peer review.

DAYoung
28th July 09, 08:38 PM
The wording is a little poor but it means the only thing supporting an anecdote is the testimony itself. ie. someone said it. But case studies are documented, relevant factors are measured, they are published and undergo peer review.

Yes, I'm vaguely aware of these things you call 'case studies'.

This doesn't detract from the worth of testimony, bearing witness, tale, anecdote, story and yarn.

Each of these is perfectly valuable, properly used. And certainly not worthy of dismissal, simply for being what it is.

Put another way, you should attack what's false in an anecdote (its data or use), not the anecdote itself.

MaverickZ
28th July 09, 08:48 PM
Yes, I'm vaguely aware of these things you call 'case studies'.

This doesn't detract from the worth of testimony, bearing witness, tale, anecdote, story and yarn.

Each of these is perfectly valuable, properly used. And certainly not worthy of dismissal, simply for being what it is.

Put another way, you should attack what's false in an anecdote (its data or use), not the anecdote itself.
Wouldn't the ability to prove an anecdote false require one to have s falsifiable set of facts? Taking it out of the realm of anecdote and making it a case study?

Also, I would just like to note that "properly used" is a very subjective statement.

DAYoung
28th July 09, 08:52 PM
Wouldn't the ability to prove an anecdote false require one to have s falsifiable set of facts? Taking it out of the realm of anecdote and making it a case study?

Also, I would just like to note that "properly used" is a very subjective statement.

Yes and yes, on the whole.

MaverickZ
28th July 09, 08:55 PM
Yes and yes, on the whole.
You must be out of practice. You have to disagree, call me names, and then insult my intelligence.

DAYoung
28th July 09, 08:57 PM
You must be out of practice. You have to disagree, call me names, and then insult my intelligence.

Sorry.

Umm.

Your statement is typically reductive, lacks nuance, and smells like the Elders of Zion.

Zendetta
28th July 09, 08:59 PM
http://skepticwiki.org/index.php/Anecdotal_evidence

lol, Virus, that passage doesn't say anything meaningful (except this: even well-documented case studies don't "prove" anything).

Its only other point is that the "difference" between an anecdote and a "case study" is one of documented evidence - which is exactly why I said that when "Science does it" (ie, with documentation) its called a "case study".

In other words, when a researcher gathers people's anecdotal accounts, compiles and documents the findings, then writes it up... its a case study.

DAYoung
28th July 09, 09:00 PM
This is my point. It's what you DO with anecdotes that matters (e.g. Maverick's 'taking it out of the realm').

Dismissing something as 'anecdote' is silly.

MaverickZ
28th July 09, 09:01 PM
Sorry.

Umm.

Your statement is typically reductive, lacks nuance, and smells like the Elders of Zion.
Did... are those compliments? I don't even know what that first thing means!

Well, well, you're acerbically extemporaneous.

DAYoung
28th July 09, 09:05 PM
Did... are those compliments? I don't even know what that first thing means!

Well, well, you're acerbically extemporaneous.

You're a likable chap. I tried.

MaverickZ
28th July 09, 09:06 PM
You're a likable chap. I tried.
You sure do know how to make a grown man blush.

DAYoung
28th July 09, 10:56 PM
You sure do know how to make a grown man blush.

Part of my PhD training.

Kein Haar
29th July 09, 05:13 PM
"Burn the heretic. Kill the mutant. Purge the unclean."
http://www.myconfinedspace.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/warhammer-40k-inquisition-500x368.jpg

Important. Worth repeating.

socratic
29th July 09, 11:54 PM
I wanna cast magic missile!

partyboy
30th July 09, 09:20 PM
lily - the early years:

http://www.thehighdefinite.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/gonnabepissed1.jpg

nihilist
30th July 09, 09:40 PM
Wouldn't she be on her back?

Toby Christensen
5th August 09, 01:28 PM
I like anti-social tendencies, is that such a bad thing?

I come from a sociable family. My eldest brothers are all sociable. My twin manages to get along fine.

I guess you could call me an anomaly. Where the others are out entertaining and being gracious, I'm debating the use of force on idiots.

I'm not a bastard. I just have a big conscience.