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View Full Version : Harvard Professor Arrested for...?



Gbemi
22nd July 09, 08:22 AM
I'm sure most of you have heard already that Henry Louis Gates Jr., Harvard Professor, world famous author, documentarian and historian and one of the most recognizable black men in the country, was arrested for mouthing off to cops.

Background: He had locked himself out of his home and he and his driver were trying to find a way to get in. Someone driving by called 911 reporting two black males with knapsacks attempting to burglerize a home. Neither had knapsacks, Gates is 54 and very gray, and was wearing a golf shirt and khaki's, you know, gear of choice for most thieves. It was also the middle of the day.

So, Gates goes around back, gets in through a window and opens the door (to his own house). By this time, the fuzz shows up and demands ID. Angry at the implication, Gates refuses, mouths off, and was subsequently arrested.


I see three things wrong here

1) Obvious racist/paranoid citizen who fabricated the knapsacks and context of what he/she saw.

2) POSSIBLY insensitive police officers who could have cut a 54 year old some slack considering all the details (it was his home, the 911 call was bogus, he didn't have a lock pick kit in his hands etc..).

3) Gates, who should have known better, would have done better to show the ID and then complain afterwards than handle things the way he did.


Gates is asking for an apology. Should he get it?

Lebell
22nd July 09, 08:30 AM
ofcourse not, he should get a fine.

the dumbass locked himself out, then behaved suspiciously, the cops show up and he decides to be stubborn.

fuck him and his harvard title.

you must comply to the order.
cop asks you ID you show it, it is obliged to do so and nobody cares about your feelings.

Kein Haar
22nd July 09, 08:34 AM
Notice how the driver wasn't arrested for anything.

Probably allowed himself to be patted down, provided his I.D., and calmly explained the situation.

They were thoroughly investigating a forcible felony.

I did nothing wrong...

Get out of my house...

I don't need to provide you with with anything...

Get your hands off me...

Gauranteed.

He might have done something wrong.

They do not need to leave his house.

He does have to provide his identification.

No, they don't have to keep their hands off him.

I'm sure those cops have NEVER dealt with self-righteous ivy league students or professors before.

How about this. If there's someone forcing his door down next time...they should take their time responding, and when there's someone there...just assume the best.

Gbemi
22nd July 09, 08:45 AM
Well, it looks like the first place I got the news from was a bit off. Gates did show the ID right away. He only mouthed off when the police officer REFUSED to give HIS name and Badge Number. Here is Gates's version as per a letter from his lawyer;

http://www.oliverwillis.com/2009/07/21/henry-louis-gates-statement-on-his-arrest-by-cambridge-pd/



Professor Gates was driven to his home by a driver for a local car company. Professor Gates attempted to enter his front door, but the door was damaged. Professor Gates then entered his rear door with his key, turned off his alarm, and again attempted to open the front door. With the help of his driver they were able to force the front door open, and then the driver carried Professor Gates’ luggage into his home.
Professor Gates immediately called the Harvard Real Estate office to report the damage to his door and requested that it be repaired immediately. As he was talking to the Harvard Real Estate office on his portable phone in his house, he observed a uniformed officer on his front porch. When Professor Gates opened the door, the officer immediately asked him to step outside. Professor Gates remained inside his home and asked the officer why he was there. The officer indicated that he was responding to a 911 call about a breaking and entering in progress at this address. Professor Gates informed the officer that he lived there and was a faculty member at Harvard University. The officer then asked Professor Gates whether he could prove that he lived there and taught at Harvard. Professor Gates said that he could, and turned to walk into his kitchen, where he had left his wallet. The officer followed him. Professor Gates handed both his Harvard University identification and his valid Massachusetts driver’s license to the officer. Both include Professor Gates’ photograph, and the license includes his address.
Professor Gates then asked the police officer if he would give him his name and his badge number. He made this request several times. The officer did not produce any identification nor did he respond to Professor Gates’ request for this information. After an additional request by Professor Gates for the officer’s name and badge number, the officer then turned and left the kitchen of Professor Gates’ home without ever acknowledging who he was or if there were charges against Professor Gates. As Professor Gates followed the officer to his own front door, he was astonished to see several police officers gathered on his front porch. Professor Gates asked the officer’s colleagues for his name and badge number. As Professor Gates stepped onto his front porch, the officer who had been inside and who had examined his identification, said to him, ‘Thank you for accommodating my earlier request,’ and then placed Professor Gates under arrest. He was handcuffed on his own front porch.

Kein Haar
22nd July 09, 08:52 AM
Well, it looks like the first place I got the news from was a bit off. Gates did show the ID right away.

lol...what?

Oh, new article...from his lawyer. Of course.

Fearless Ukemi
22nd July 09, 09:41 AM
The guy was a dick to the cops. What the fuck did he expect was going to come out of that? I would call the cops too if it looked like someone weas breaking into a home.

KO'd N DOA
22nd July 09, 09:53 AM
So now this Prof. is going to put to use his genius for revenge? Pitty the cop.

Lebell
22nd July 09, 09:56 AM
i don't believe the version as it's written down the second time/version.

the bla...professor is lying!

Kein Haar
22nd July 09, 10:43 AM
Now, in the professor's defense, the actual charge for "disorderly conduct" indicates to me it was his attitude which was a factor in their decision to arrest him. That is not appropriate.

Could be different by state, but in Illinois, the key charge would have been "obstructing" which means there is something objecitvely required of the professor which he failed to do, or some process he got in the way of.

I have a hard-time believing the cops in this jurisdiction were overtly dense when it came to dealings with librul university folk and went out of their way to be dicks.

Simplest explanation: Professor went off the deep end about injustice, and didn't do what was asked of him....at least in any timely manner.

OZZ
22nd July 09, 10:44 AM
Instead of getting overly defensive and pulling the 'its because I'm black ' shit , he should have just showed the cop his ID like anyone else would have.
Fuck him and his Ivy League attitude.

HappyOldGuy
22nd July 09, 10:46 AM
There was no underlying crime. Therefore any arrest, no matter what was a dick move.

Yes, we should expect that if we get mouthy with cops, they will retaliate. That does not make their retaliation legal.

Kein Haar
22nd July 09, 10:46 AM
Maybe.

WarPhalange
22nd July 09, 10:55 AM
I would call the cops too if it looked like a black man was near an expensive home.
For shame.

Knave
22nd July 09, 11:01 AM
Greetings.


There was no underlying crime. Therefore any arrest, no matter what was a dick move.

So to change the situation around a little, let's say the same misunderstanding is made about you at your house. Neighbor thinks someone is breaking in. For shits and giggles let's also say that you've had a burglary in the past.

Now let's say when the responding officers get down the street from your house, a hippie convention blocks the road with their circle of friendship and stops the officers from passing by. Let's say it takes the officers 30 minutes of bullshitting with the hippies, you know, handling them with kid gloves rather than just pushing them out of the fucking way, before they eventually make it to your house and find that nothing was even wrong.

Would you, as a homeowner who has been burglarized before, say that the hippies shouldn't be charged with obstruction/interference/whatever because there was no underlying crime?

Spade: The Real Snake
22nd July 09, 11:03 AM
Notice how the driver wasn't arrested for anything.

Probably allowed himself to be patted down, provided his I.D., and calmly explained the situation.

They were thoroughly investigating a forcible felony.

I did nothing wrong...

Get out of my house...

I don't need to provide you with with anything...

Get your hands off me...

Gauranteed.

He might have done something wrong.

They do not need to leave his house.

He does have to provide his identification.

No, they don't have to keep their hands off him.

I'm sure those cops have NEVER dealt with self-righteous ivy league students or professors before.

How about this. If there's someone forcing his door down next time...they should take their time responding, and when there's someone there...just assume the best.

^^
Pretty much agree.
It isn't hard to show a driver's license or something proving you live there.

They should have detained him until they were able to verify he was rightfully there and then release him.

HappyOldGuy
22nd July 09, 11:05 AM
Now let's say when the responding officers get down the street from your house, a hippie convention blocks the road with their circle of friendship and stops the officers from passing by. Let's say it takes the officers 30 minutes of bullshitting with the hippies, you know, handling them with kid gloves rather than just pushing them out of the fucking way, before they eventually make it to your house and find that nothing was even wrong.

I live in berkeley. That would mean it was a day ending in 'y'

WarPhalange
22nd July 09, 11:05 AM
Or lets say the house actually got broken into and standing before the cop was a burglar in Harvard professor's clothing. Should the cop just assume the guy is the owner and leave?

Because I can guarantee that if that happened you'd be bitching about how useless cops are because they didn't stop the burglar in your house.

Fearless Ukemi
22nd July 09, 11:06 AM
For shame.


I don't give a shit if he's black, white, or green. If I see something that looks like it could be a burglary I would call the cops. I'd rather have to show a cop my ID and answer a few questions than come home to see a lot of my shit missing.

BTW, I know you were just messing around.

WarPhalange
22nd July 09, 11:07 AM
Fuck, you hate green people, too? The hell is wrong with you, guy? Get some help.

Lohff
22nd July 09, 11:20 AM
I live in berkeley.
Explains the patchouli smell.

HappyOldGuy
22nd July 09, 11:23 AM
Or lets say the house actually got broken into and standing before the cop was a burglar in Harvard professor's clothing. Should the cop just assume the guy is the owner and leave?


But he did show his ID. At that point, this entire exercise should have ended, and if he wanted to express his displeasure over how the process was handled with the officers in any way that was not a direct threat, that was his constitutionally protected right.

Kein Haar
22nd July 09, 11:28 AM
Of course, you don't really know that...and that's certainly not the simplest explanation.

TheLordHumungus
22nd July 09, 11:28 AM
I don't give a shit if he's black, white, or green. If I see something that looks like it could be a burglary I would call the cops. I'd rather have to show a cop my ID and answer a few questions than come home to see a lot of my shit missing.

BTW, I know you were just messing around.

Snitches get stitches.

HappyOldGuy
22nd July 09, 11:34 AM
Of course, you don't really know that...and that's certainly not the simplest explanation.

Which part? AFAIK everything I said agrees with both sides versions of events?
Doesn't guarantee it's true, but it's pretty high probability.

Quikfeet509
22nd July 09, 12:11 PM
Good thing the cops didn't use a taser or else there would be an avalanche of BLAH BLAH BLAH here today.

Fearless Ukemi
22nd July 09, 12:36 PM
Snitches get stitches.


You don't own anything of value so if someone stole your Mobb Deep cd where you got that line, it wouldn't be a huge deal.

Zendetta
22nd July 09, 12:52 PM
Fuck him and his Ivy League attitude.

^^^ This.

I have had a lot of respect for Gates up to this point. Apparently, he told the cop "Do you know who I am?" and its apparent Gates had an elitist/classist disdain for the blue-collar LEO. Pretty lame.

Now, certainly some cops will do a brother dirty, no doubt. But this is clearly one of those cases where "don't be a dick" would have solved this problem before it even began.

Ajamil
22nd July 09, 12:57 PM
Sounds like everyone in this encounter were being assholish jerks. But if the cop refused to give and badge #, and arrested him after ID was shown, then they were in the wrong. Or am I mistaken that a cop should give this info if asked?

Lebell
22nd July 09, 01:30 PM
you are assuming that wat has been stated is true.

Gbemi
22nd July 09, 01:46 PM
I'll repeat what other posters said, he was arrested for disorderly conduct, not obstruction. This lends credence to Gates's claim that he showed the ID immediately. Had he not, he would have been charged with disorderly conduct AND obstruction, which he wasn't.

So, being a pen0r or not, it appears that the facts are on his side for this one thing.

Yelling at cops isn't cool, and he shouldn't have ragged on the guys that were really there to protect his home. BUT, as a citizen, if he asks a police officer his name and badge number, especially if he's already let him in the house, does the officer have an obligation to respond?

I believe he does, and while Gates's yelling was not justified (he could have filed a report later on), his anger may have been.

For those of you who aren't minorities and/or have lived in low income areas, you should know that we are taught by either school officials or community organizations how to deal with police officers, even when we haven't done anything. One of the things we are taught is to get the name and badge number of the officer. At least in NYC, we are taught that it is our right to know. Which is why I can see why the prof. was upset.

kracker
22nd July 09, 02:29 PM
i don't believe the version as it's written down the second time/version.


Just for fun, let's analyze the two scenarios. One of these scenarios is true, the other is a lie.

1) PROMINENT MEMBER OF THE AFRICAN AMERICAN COMMUNITY fabricates bullshit to get RACIST PIG in trouble

2) RACIST PIG fabricates bullshit to get PROMINENT MEMBER OF THE AFRICAN AMERICAN COMMUNITY in trouble

Given the events that have transpired within the last 100 years or so between police and black people in America, which scenario is more likely? Hmm it's a tough one...

kracker
22nd July 09, 02:34 PM
Greetings.



So to change the situation around a little, let's say the same misunderstanding is made about you at your house. Neighbor thinks someone is breaking in. For shits and giggles let's also say that you've had a burglary in the past.

Now let's say when the responding officers get down the street from your house, a hippie convention blocks the road with their circle of friendship and stops the officers from passing by. Let's say it takes the officers 30 minutes of bullshitting with the hippies, you know, handling them with kid gloves rather than just pushing them out of the fucking way, before they eventually make it to your house and find that nothing was even wrong.

Would you, as a homeowner who has been burglarized before, say that the hippies shouldn't be charged with obstruction/interference/whatever because there was no underlying crime?

I can honestly say without any reservations that I would prefer this scenario to living in a place where people could get charged without an actual underlying crime. Please move to China or North Korea or some other shithole overrun with rabid pigs. Let's at least keep North America for people who like freedom, or at least are somewhat ok with freedom.

Ajamil
22nd July 09, 02:34 PM
I think both of those scenarios is assuming the people involved were thinking "grand scheme of things." I would imagine the two scenarios more like this.

ASSHOLE yells at PRICK and PRICK retaliates unfairly,then PRICK tries to cover his ass.

ASSHOLE yells at PRICK and PRICK retaliates fairly, then ASSHOLE tries to cover his ass.

resolve
22nd July 09, 03:57 PM
Neither of the stories are true. I can tell just by the way both were written that there is alot of missing information that's important to make a proper judgment of what happened.

Also, Gbemi, that was some decent sleuthing.

Robot Jesus
22nd July 09, 04:03 PM
Greetings.



So to change the situation around a little, let's say the same misunderstanding is made about you at your house. Neighbor thinks someone is breaking in. For shits and giggles let's also say that you've had a burglary in the past.

Now let's say when the responding officers get down the street from your house, a hippie convention blocks the road with their circle of friendship and stops the officers from passing by. Let's say it takes the officers 30 minutes of bullshitting with the hippies, you know, handling them with kid gloves rather than just pushing them out of the fucking way, before they eventually make it to your house and find that nothing was even wrong.

Would you, as a homeowner who has been burglarized before, say that the hippies shouldn't be charged with obstruction/interference/whatever because there was no underlying crime?


in that case there is an underlying crime, the hippies where obstructing the cop from preforming his duties, possibly leading to harm to house or body. No such harm was a possibility with the prof; he was charged with being a dick, something that should not be a crime.

Dark Helmet
22nd July 09, 05:00 PM
I wonder what the Berkely/Harvard liberals are saying about all of this?

resolve
22nd July 09, 05:51 PM
I wonder what the Berkely/Harvard liberals are saying about all of this?

"We have a black professor teaching here at Harvard? That's marvelous!" - Random liberal professor who didn't know as they then begin to lock up their office and car on a more compulsive and regular basis...

Dagon Akujin
22nd July 09, 09:34 PM
Fuck, you hate green people, too? The hell is wrong with you, guy? Get some help.
hpiIWMWWVco

WarPhalange
22nd July 09, 09:56 PM
Just for fun, let's analyze the two scenarios. One of these scenarios is true, the other is a lie.

1) PROMINENT MEMBER OF THE AFRICAN AMERICAN COMMUNITY fabricates bullshit to get RACIST PIG in trouble

2) RACIST PIG fabricates bullshit to get PROMINENT MEMBER OF THE AFRICAN AMERICAN COMMUNITY in trouble

Given the events that have transpired within the last 100 years or so between police and black people in America, which scenario is more likely? Hmm it's a tough one...

Right, and blacks have been in gangs and have had high incarceration rates for years now. Does that mean if there is a fight between a black man and a white man, I should immediately pound on the black man?

I like your first scenario especially. Why exactly is the cop racist? I understand in the second scenario you are presuming he is racist in order to make your point, but more appropriate would be:

1) PROMINENT MEMBER OF THE AFRICAN AMERICAN COMMUNITY fabricates bullshit to get RESPECTED POLICE OFFICER in trouble

Or hell, why not go all the way and actually reverse the two positions?

1) ELITIST HARVARD PROFESSOR WITH EGO PROBLEM fabricates bullshit to get RESPECTED POLICE OFFICER in trouble

So how can you say which is true? If he had shown his ID and told the cops to get the fuck off of his property, then he's in "asshole" territory, but not enough to get arrested. So if that's the case, it's the cops who are in the wrong.

But if he then followed the cops out on his lawn and started yelling at them as they were getting into their car, then that is in fact disturbing the peace. I think a ticket would have been more appropriate, though.

Keith
22nd July 09, 11:19 PM
Just for fun, let's analyze the two scenarios. One of these scenarios is true, the other is a lie.

1) PROMINENT MEMBER OF THE AFRICAN AMERICAN COMMUNITY fabricates bullshit to get RACIST PIG in trouble

2) RACIST PIG fabricates bullshit to get PROMINENT MEMBER OF THE AFRICAN AMERICAN COMMUNITY in trouble

Given the events that have transpired within the last 100 years or so between police and black people in America, which scenario is more likely? Hmm it's a tough one...

You fail at logic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Either/or_fallacy

TheLordHumungus
23rd July 09, 01:33 AM
You don't own anything of value so if someone stole your Mobb Deep cd where you got that line, it wouldn't be a huge deal.

Or maybe you put way too much value on your shit, and are thus willing to give insane amounts of power to pigs so that they may keep it safe at the expense of personal liberties. Liberties like not having to give a pig ID when you're in your own home.

MEGA JESUS-SAMA
23rd July 09, 01:38 AM
How's the cop going to know it's your home without seeing your ID?

TheLordHumungus
23rd July 09, 01:47 AM
Burden of proof should be on him. Unless I'm driving my car (in which case he can check whether I'm licensed to do so), I shouldn't have to show a pig my papers.

Kein Haar
23rd July 09, 06:44 AM
I shouldn't have to show a pig my papers.

I want to make sure we're talking about the same thing.

A neighbor observes someone spreading a door frame to unlock a vehicle, and it turns out to be you with your own vehicle. But he doesn't know that, and he wants to make sure nobody is stealing his neighbor's vehicle. Maybe even the alarm goes off and you're dicking around trying to find the key-fob to deactivate it with limited success.

Pig arrives. You are on private property in your own vehicle.

"Who are you? Is this your car?"

"It is my car, but I don't have to show you anything, pig."

"Ok, sir . Carry on."

That is how it should work, yes.

I've been lobbying the upper management for literally years to get those ESP helmets.

Assholes won't budge.

Ajamil
23rd July 09, 06:53 AM
President weighs in. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8164862.stm)

Do we really need the President to be commenting on this?



Prof Henry Louis Gates was held last week in Cambridge, Massachusetts, home to the top university where he teaches.



Barack Obama said the US had a long history of African-Americans being disproportionately stopped by police.



Officers were called to Prof Gates's house after a woman reported seeing two black males - the professor and his driver - trying to force entry. Although the exact facts of the incident are disputed, Prof Gates was arrested outside his home after providing the officer with identification.



Mr Obama said: "I think it's fair to say, number one, any of us would be pretty angry.



"Number two... the Cambridge police acted stupidly in arresting somebody when there was already proof that they were in their own home."



An initial disorderly conduct charge was dropped and Cambridge police called the arrest "regrettable and unfortunate".



'Rogue policeman'

Mr Obama said federal officials should work with local police to "improve policing techniques so that we're eliminating potential bias".



He said that when he was in the Illinois state legislature, he had worked towards a racial profiling bill because there was indisputable evidence that African-Americans and Hispanics were being stopped disproportionately.



"And that is a sign, an example of how race remains a factor in the society," he said.
Prof Gates has said he was "outraged" by the arrest and called the officer, Sgt James Crowley, a "rogue policeman". Sgt Crowley has refused to apologise.



During the confrontation between the two men, the 58-year-old professor reportedly said: "This is what happens to black men in America."



His lawyer said Prof Gates had just returned from a trip overseas and, upon arriving at the property with a driver, found his front door jammed and had to force it open.
By the time police arrived at the house, he and the driver had managed to get inside the property.



According to police, Prof Gates shouted at the officer and accused him of racial bias.

Fearless Ukemi
23rd July 09, 06:55 AM
Or maybe you put way too much value on your shit, and are thus willing to give insane amounts of power to pigs so that they may keep it safe at the expense of personal liberties. Liberties like not having to give a pig ID when you're in your own home.


You're dumb.

Kein Haar
23rd July 09, 07:11 AM
He said that when he was in the Illinois state legislature, he had worked towards a racial profiling bill because there was indisputable evidence that African-Americans and Hispanics were being stopped disproportionately.


Indisputable? Really? Actually, that turned out to be FALSE after data had been compiled a while with these "traffic stop data sheets" we have to fill out. They were stopped roughly in correct proportion relative to regional demographics.

Next point of contention involves whether or not minorities are the subject to vehicle searches any more often.

That's the key box we have to check with traffic stop sheets...whether or not we asked to search their vehicle.

I'm not sure what conclusions have been drawn yet about that...if any.

Kein Haar
23rd July 09, 07:16 AM
I'm not sure if primarly black departments get unofficially scolded for wanting to search whitey's car any more often though.

It's kind of a ha-ha when you have a desk sergeant make one traffic stop all year, and it happens to be a minority. His racial profiling quotient is then 100%...hahahahaha. pownt.

SFGOON
23rd July 09, 10:18 AM
Burden of proof should be on him. Unless I'm driving my car (in which case he can check whether I'm licensed to do so), I shouldn't have to show a pig my papers.

There are three levels of contact police have with citizens, at least in my state.

1. - Social. I think you're a bad guy just because I do. I walk up and say "Hey bad guy, do you have any ID?" You reply "Fuck off pig!" and saunter back to your retired life. I wipe a single tear from my eye and stomp back to my patrol car with a lump in my throat.

2. - Terry. I think you're a bad guy because you match the description of a suspect in a robbery that just happened five minutes ago two blocks away. I'm allowed to detain you to investigate the crime. I walk up and say "Hey bad guy, you're not free to leave. Do you have any ID?" Now, you DON'T have to ID yourself, BUT you can't lie to me about who you are. You can say "Fuck off pig!" But if you try to saunter back to your retired life I can put you in handcuffs - remember, you're not free to leave. If I can't ID you, I'll keep you there and bring my witness to say whether or not it was you.

Also, if I think you have weapons, I can pat you down FOR WEAPONS. Nothing more.

3. - Probable cause. I'm reasonably sure you stole three pallets of pantyhose because I've received a report of a crime of panyhose theft, and there's a nexus to you because you're walking down the street two blocks away with three pallets of "Lusty Lady" brand pantyhose minus the one you're masturbating into. Fuck you, you're going to jail and I can use reasonable force to take you into custody. And I will! And I will ID you too, even if that means forcing you to give prints with a warrant while you sit in jail!

That's how it works, like it or not.

Kein Haar
23rd July 09, 10:45 AM
You haven't mentioned that tactical chimp.

Err...I've already said too much.

Spade: The Real Snake
23rd July 09, 10:54 AM
President weighs in. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8164862.stm) as does Professor Henry Louis Gates (http://blog.oup.com/2008/11/gates_obama/)


Do we really need the President to be commenting on this?
No
http://i28.tinypic.com/1958gn.jpg

We don't
http://i28.tinypic.com/23mkn7o.jpg

TheLordHumungus
23rd July 09, 10:57 AM
I want to make sure we're talking about the same thing.

A neighbor observes someone spreading a door frame to unlock a vehicle, and it turns out to be you with your own vehicle. But he doesn't know that, and he wants to make sure nobody is stealing his neighbor's vehicle. Maybe even the alarm goes off and you're dicking around trying to find the key-fob to deactivate it with limited success.

Pig arrives. You are on private property in your own vehicle.

"Who are you? Is this your car?"

"It is my car, but I don't have to show you anything, pig."

"Ok, sir . Carry on."

That is how it should work, yes.

I've been lobbying the upper management for literally years to get those ESP helmets.

Assholes won't budge.

So I have a neighbor who is concerned enough to care deeply about my property, but not enough to know who lives next to him? A neighbor who's too spineless to walk out the front door to figure out what's going on right next to his home? Fuck him and his concern.

Other than that, yes. hat's how I think it should go. If I'm on my property and not doing anything illegal, I shouldn't be answerable to you. It should be on you to prove I'm doing something wrong and you have the right to ID and harass me.

MEGA JESUS-SAMA
23rd July 09, 11:00 AM
what if i shout FUCK DA POLICE
is that social or terry or probable cause
can i hit back if they pull out their nightsticks?

TheLordHumungus
23rd July 09, 11:05 AM
You're dumb.
It must be a comforting thing indeed to know your place and unquestioningly do what you're told by your betters,

Also, you are incorrect. I am quite able to speak.

TheLordHumungus
23rd July 09, 11:09 AM
There are three levels of contact police have with citizens, at least in my state.

1. - Social. I think you're a bad guy just because I do. I walk up and say "Hey bad guy, do you have any ID?" You reply "Fuck off pig!" and saunter back to your retired life. I wipe a single tear from my eye and stomp back to my patrol car with a lump in my throat.

2. - Terry. I think you're a bad guy because you match the description of a suspect in a robbery that just happened five minutes ago two blocks away. I'm allowed to detain you to investigate the crime. I walk up and say "Hey bad guy, you're not free to leave. Do you have any ID?" Now, you DON'T have to ID yourself, BUT you can't lie to me about who you are. You can say "Fuck off pig!" But if you try to saunter back to your retired life I can put you in handcuffs - remember, you're not free to leave. If I can't ID you, I'll keep you there and bring my witness to say whether or not it was you.

Also, if I think you have weapons, I can pat you down FOR WEAPONS. Nothing more.

3. - Probable cause. I'm reasonably sure you stole three pallets of pantyhose because I've received a report of a crime of panyhose theft, and there's a nexus to you because you're walking down the street two blocks away with three pallets of "Lusty Lady" brand pantyhose minus the one you're masturbating into. Fuck you, you're going to jail and I can use reasonable force to take you into custody. And I will! And I will ID you too, even if that means forcing you to give prints with a warrant while you sit in jail!

That's how it works, like it or not.

In all seriousness, which of those do you believe applies to this case?

TheLordHumungus
23rd July 09, 11:13 AM
It's funny how the same person who thinks someone is crazy for valuing items places an insane amount of value on not having to spend a few minutes pulling out a piece of paper and show it to someone.

The fact is, some event in your life (parental issues maybe?) has caused you to have un-natural problems with authority. I think therapy could help with this.

I suffer from a horrible condition that causes me to value my freedom more than my material possessions. I suppose that makes me a shitty consumer and thus a bad American. I can deal with that and am okay with it.

How are you dealing with the fact that you're little more than a sheep with nice things?

Fearless Ukemi
23rd July 09, 11:26 AM
It's funny how the same person who thinks someone is crazy for valuing items places an insane amount of value on not having to spend a few minutes pulling out a piece of paper and show it to someone.

The fact is, some event in your life (parental issues maybe?) has caused you to have un-natural problems with authority. I think therapy could help with this.


It's not even just the items. I have dogs. I value them a lot more than I value my possessions and it isn't crazy to assume someone breaking into my house wouldn't harm them.

Fearless Ukemi
23rd July 09, 11:28 AM
It must be a comforting thing indeed to know your place and unquestioningly do what you're told by your betters,

Also, you are incorrect. I am quite able to speak.


You're dumb.

WarPhalange
23rd July 09, 11:45 AM
So I have a neighbor who is concerned enough to care deeply about my property, but not enough to know who lives next to him?


It's not his home, it's private property. You honestly want your neighbor to snoop around your house? You fucking communist sheep. I value my freedom too much to have people I don't know on a personal level trying to learn everything about me "just in case" someone who isn't me is trying to break in.


A neighbor who's too spineless to walk out the front door to figure out what's going on right next to his home? Fuck him and his concern.

Yeah, fuck that 80-year-old crippled bitch. If she really cared, she would have tried to stop any would-be robbers, who are possibly armed, with her bare, arthritis-filled hands.


Other than that, yes. hat's how I think it should go. If I'm on my property and not doing anything illegal, I shouldn't be answerable to you. It should be on you to prove I'm doing something wrong and you have the right to ID and harass me.

You're right, it should. But you have to compromise between ideals and pragmatism. Instead of spending an hour asking neighbors if the guy in house X is really the guy who lives there, the cop can just ask you for ID, find out that you are the owner, and leave.

TheLordHumungus
23rd July 09, 11:49 AM
I am free to do whatever I want because my desires are rational and I have morals. You may think I do what I am told to, but I do what I want to. My urges fit within societal constructs of normalcy and therefore I do not butt heads with authority.

What you call 'freedom' is really just the attitude of a stubborn child shouting "YOU CAN'T TELL ME WHAT TO DO!" which you have somehow held onto into adulthood. It is not noble, it is silly.

So it isn't a cage because you can't see the bars. Your contentedness isn't noble, its a sad sign you're broken. But as long as you've come to like the taste of the bit, what the hell.

TheLordHumungus
23rd July 09, 11:51 AM
You're dumb.

You should probably look that word up. Is English not your first language?

WarPhalange
23rd July 09, 11:57 AM
So it isn't a cage because you can't see the bars. Your contentedness isn't noble, its a sad sign you're broken. But as long as you've come to like the taste of the bit, what the hell.

There is ALWAYS a cage. Even you have a cage that you're willing to live in. The bars prevent people from murdering, raping, and robbing each other. You'd have to be an idiot to want to break out of that cage and be fine with all that shit happening undeterred. Going a step further and saying "I'm willing to go a step further and occasionally be slightly inconvenienced in order to have a much greater chance of stopping such crimes." doesn't mean we're broken.

In fact, saying "I'd rather get robbed than have someone ask me if I live here!" means you're pretty fucked in the head.

Spade: The Real Snake
23rd July 09, 11:59 AM
You're right, it should. But you have to compromise between ideals and pragmatism. Instead of spending an hour asking neighbors if the guy in house X is really the guy who lives there, the cop can just ask you for ID, find out that you are the owner, and leave.
When the esteemed Doctor refused to show his Driver's License and insisted on showing his Harvard ID with a "don't you know who I am?", the officer apparently radioed in to the University PD in attempts to corroborate whom he was....as, understandably, the Harvard ID does not show an address.

It could have been handled much quicker, had the esteem Doctor merely shown a government issue photo ID with a proper address.

TheLordHumungus
23rd July 09, 12:02 PM
It's not his home, it's private property. You honestly want your neighbor to snoop around your house? You fucking communist sheep. I value my freedom too much to have people I don't know on a personal level trying to learn everything about me "just in case" someone who isn't me is trying to break in.

I just don't understand why he cares enough to save my car, but not enough to have introduced himself at some point. If he doesn't have enough of an interest to know who I am, maybe he shouldn't be worrying what's going happening on my property.

And no, I don't want my neighbors in my business, but I will introduce myself and learn their names.


Yeah, fuck that 80-year-old crippled bitch. If she really cared, she would have tried to stop any would-be robbers, who are possibly armed, with her bare, arthritis-filled hands.

The elderly are the worst about this. Nothing better to do than stare into your place and phone the pigs when they think something is up.

I gave a friend of mine the key to my place so that he could hang there till I got home. When I get there, cop cars are at my home. That senior fucking called the police on him. Nosy octogenarians.


You're right, it should. But you have to compromise between ideals and pragmatism. Instead of spending an hour asking neighbors if the guy in house X is really the guy who lives there, the cop can just ask you for ID, find out that you are the owner, and leave.

They can ask for whatever they want, I just shouldn't be obligated to provide it.

HappyOldGuy
23rd July 09, 12:03 PM
When the esteemed Doctor refused to show his Driver's License and insisted on showing his Harvard ID with a "don't you know who I am?", the officer apparently radioed in to the University PD in attempts to corroborate whom he was....as, understandably, the Harvard ID does not show an address.

It could have been handled much quicker, had the esteem Doctor merely shown a government issue photo ID with a proper address.

Where are you getting this?

TheLordHumungus
23rd July 09, 12:06 PM
In fact, saying "I'd rather get robbed than have someone ask me if I live here!" means you're pretty fucked in the head.

I don't mind being asked anything. Asking means I can politely (or not so politely) refuse. But I will not have ID or info demanded of me under penalty of law.

Gbemi
23rd July 09, 12:22 PM
Question; Can you get arrested for acting the fool inside your own home?

I ask because I just read reported statements from the officer and the precinct. It seems that by their account, Gates was going on INSIDE his home. the officer asked him to step outside. Because Gates was still yelling when he stepped outside, it constituted a PUBLIC disturbance, which is what he was arrested for.

I know the charges were dropped, but would ENTRAPMENT be an applicable defense if they weren't? What other motive did the officer have for asking Gates to leave his house?

Japuma
23rd July 09, 12:27 PM
I really want to know what TLH and Kracker's idea of a perfect socity would be... Would there be absolutly no police, or just investigators for the really bad stuff? If there would be police what would their limits be?

And shouldn't Antifa be on the "OMG!1!!1! HEZ A R4C1ST PIG" bandwagon by now?

Spade: The Real Snake
23rd July 09, 12:28 PM
Where are you getting this?

I heard it on the radio on my way into work this morning.

I will see if I can source it.

HappyOldGuy
23rd July 09, 12:32 PM
It looks like somebody is reading between the lines. The official report says that he just called Harvard PD because the guy was affiliated with Harvard. Which is probably SOP. It's also pretty obvious that the cop already realized he had stepped in it by that point and was looking to CYA.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2009/0723092gates2.html

Spade: The Real Snake
23rd July 09, 12:38 PM
It looks like somebody is reading between the lines. The official report says that he just called Harvard PD because the guy was affiliated with Harvard. Which is probably SOP. It's also pretty obvious that the cop already realized he had stepped in it by that point and was looking to CYA.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2009/0723092gates2.html

It is probably a little of both.

The officer's sheet will be the determining factor as to how this is all portrayed. If the officer has no official history of "bigotry", it will look worse for Dr. Gates then if he has a long history of "minority complaints" and is known around town as an asshole.

HappyOldGuy
23rd July 09, 12:44 PM
It is probably a little of both.

The officer's sheet will be the determining factor as to how this is all portrayed. If the officer has no official history of "bigotry", it will look worse for Dr. Gates then if he has a long history of "minority complaints" and is known around town as an asshole.

I dunno. When the president calls you out, and you are a public employee, you are fucked.

And honestly, even by his own statements it doesn't seem like he has a leg to stand on for the arrest. I'm perfectly happy to call Gates a douchebag for everything leading up to that, but cops aren't allowed to arrest people just for being assholes.

Spade: The Real Snake
23rd July 09, 12:49 PM
I dunno. When the president calls you out, and you are a public employee, you are fucked.
Cosby preaches patience.
I trust Cosby.
Obama called him out because of $$$.


And honestly, even by his own statements it doesn't seem like he has a leg to stand on for the arrest. I'm perfectly happy to call Gates a douchebag for everything leading up to that, but cops aren't allowed to arrest people just for being assholes.
If Gates sues, Crowley loses his job.
He will be the sacrificial lamb, which is a shame.
While he shouldn't have been arrested, he was arrested because of his own actions and, most likely, the officer wanted to make him remember "who is in charge."
It was pretty much a no-win for the cop.

Kein Haar
23rd July 09, 12:56 PM
But I will not have ID or info demanded of me under penalty of law.

Of all the time you claim to have spent in the county court house, that all involved refusal to give ID in addition to the original charges?

What a pain in the ass it must have been for the police to have to fingerprint you every single time and get a I.D. response back from the FBI (assuming you didn't carry one with you).

Expensive and time consuming for you too.

Must have cost you a small fortune for each incident in which you were arrested for one original charge in addition to obstructing.

kracker
23rd July 09, 01:15 PM
You're dumb.

And you are an awesome debater.

Fearless Ukemi
23rd July 09, 01:20 PM
The statements I was responding to do not deserve a debate. The response given will be the response he continues to get until he can make a valid point.

kracker
23rd July 09, 01:23 PM
It's funny how the same person who thinks someone is crazy for valuing items places an insane amount of value on not having to spend a few minutes pulling out a piece of paper and show it to someone.

The fact is, some event in your life (parental issues maybe?) has caused you to have un-natural problems with authority. I think therapy could help with this.

Contemplate the mangled bodies of your countrymen, and then say 'what should be the reward of such sacrifices?' Bid us and our posterity bow the knee, supplicate the friendship and plough, and sow, and reap, to glut the avarice of the men who have let loose on us the dogs of war to riot in our blood and hunt us from the face of the earth? If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!
~Sam Adams

Good beer, great quotes.

Kein Haar
23rd July 09, 01:23 PM
And you are an awesome debater.

You're a cold-call salesman.

I don't even need to say self pwnt.

Talk about depriving people of liberty. Their valuable time is being usurped.

Sleep is being interrupted of nightshift workers.

Meals, TV, and beating off all interrupted

Babies are awoken.

Muscles have been strained reaching across an end table.

Drinks spilled.

All needlessly.

You suck. The federal government had to create a special method of protection against your kind for god's sake.

Screw you, jerk.

kracker
23rd July 09, 01:29 PM
You're a cold-call salesman.


I worked that job for 3 weeks as a summer job prior to getting fired for being too polite.

nihilist
23rd July 09, 01:43 PM
Being an uppity negro makes harassment mandatory.

It's right there in the secret police handbook.

Spade: The Real Snake
23rd July 09, 02:01 PM
Being an uppity negro makes harassment mandatory.

It's right there in the secret police handbook.

There is actually a small section on this in the Boy Scout Handbook and the Dangerous Book For Boys

WarPhalange
23rd July 09, 02:25 PM
Elaborate.

HappyOldGuy
23rd July 09, 02:26 PM
Obama called him out because of $$$.


Dude. I gave almost that much. I guarantee you that Obama is never going to come to my defense on national TV. I'm lucky to get a machine signed thank you picture, with a note attached asking for more.

Obama called him out because the guy is a personal friend and mentor.

Spade: The Real Snake
23rd July 09, 03:57 PM
Dude. I gave almost that much.
I know who to hit up on my run for office.
UNCLE MONEYBAGS



I guarantee you that Obama is never going to come to my defense on national TV.
I'm lucky to get a machine signed thank you picture, with a note attached asking for more.
Would you like my rubberstamped photos of McCain and Palin??


Obama called him out because the guy is a personal friend and mentor.
I agree.
And a DONATING personal friend and mentor.
The DONATING part is key here.
I would be interested if the good Doctor helped with any fundraising for the Prez.

Ajamil
23rd July 09, 03:57 PM
Obama called him out because the guy is a personal friend and mentor.
Which is probably what the, "Do you know who I am?" was all about.

So let me give a personal experience and see what people think. I was cold-selling books for donation outside of a Wal-Mart, basically peddling wares so certainly in the wrong (I hadn't learned to only approach exiting customers yet - one's going in will mention something to the greeter). A cop approached (not security) and stopped me, I stopped. He asked what I was doing, I said distributing religious literature and asking for donations. He said I couldn't here and to leave. I said OK, and went back to the car.

My partner had the keys, so I was waiting and reading. The cop looped and pulled up again, asking why I hadn't left. I said my partner was in the store shopping, and that he had the keys. At this point he got out of the vehicle and asked for ID - all understandable as he didn't want he resuming activities as soon as he left (again, I was more honest than old-school, and would actually leave when asked). I showed him my ID, keeping it in my hand.

He asked me to hand it to him, and I politely refused by saying, "I'd like to hold on to it, please."

I got the hairy eyeball and a stronger verbal response, asking if I wished to be arrested, and reiterating the request for the ID. Wasn't worth going to jail, so I did. Eventually my partner came back and we drove off.

Point being, I was under the impression that while cops can ask to see your ID, it is still privater property and cannot be taken from you. Is this correct? Does it vary from state to state?

Knave
23rd July 09, 04:27 PM
Greetings.


Point being, I was under the impression that while cops can ask to see your ID, it is still privater property and cannot be taken from you. Is this correct? Does it vary from state to state?

Failure to identify yourself to an officer in the performance of his lawful duties is an offense (resisting, disorderly, interference, etc.) in just about every jurisdiction. Holding your ID where he can see but refusing to hand it over will probably be interpreted the same as failure to provide ID. If you mean to make it an issue of there being no probable cause or warrant for the seizure of "your" property, then in that case I'm fairly certain that most/many states consider your issued ID's to be the property of the state.

Zendetta
23rd July 09, 04:37 PM
BAM!!!

Turns out the officer in question was hand-picked by a Black Police Commisioner to teach classes on Racial Profiling!!!

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32092715/ns/us_news-race_and_ethnicity/

He also gave CPR to a dying black man - Celtics player Reggie Lewis - in 1993.

So a black man (Gates) can now play the "elitist asshole" card - we have obviously come a long way as a nation. The cop is refusing to apoligize to Gates (awesome) and I think he should sue the mufugger for defamation or slander or whatnot.

An unjustified accusation of racism is a hell of a slander, imo.

Zendetta
23rd July 09, 06:45 PM
*crickets*

and that crushing silence is the sound of Kracker and TLH shuttingthefuckup!

WarPhalange
23rd July 09, 06:49 PM
BAM!!!

Turns out the officer in question was hand-picked by a Black Police Commisioner to teach classes on Racial Profiling!!!

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32092715/ns/us_news-race_and_ethnicity/

He also gave CPR to a dying black man - Celtics player Reggie Lewis - in 1993.

So a black man (Gates) can now play the "elitist asshole" card - we have obviously come a long way as a nation. The cop is refusing to apoligize to Gates (awesome) and I think he should sue the mufugger for defamation or slander or whatnot.

An unjustified accusation of racism is a hell of a slander, imo.


Hahahahaha!

Oh snap, that is too awesome. Only thing better would have been if, when Gates is accusing the cop of racism, the cop unzips his body-costume and it turns out he's a black man. Bonus points if it was actually Obama himself.

kracker
23rd July 09, 09:48 PM
*crickets*

and that crushing silence is the sound of Kracker and TLH shuttingthefuckup!

So he's an equal oppourtunity tyrant, or he managed to sucessfully pretend he's not a racist. This changes nothing.

kracker
23rd July 09, 09:53 PM
Ah yes, the scores of mangled innocent killed by the American police, great quote, doesn't apply here.
.

How not? It's not like police don't kill innocent people fairly regularly in drug raids, home invasions, "accidental" shooting, assaults etc. This is allowed and people rarely say anything because a few assholes value some perceived notion of order above human life. Just like the British.

Zendetta
23rd July 09, 10:01 PM
So he's an equal oppourtunity tyrant

That... is probably the least stupid thing you've posted. Well done.


or he managed to sucessfully pretend he's not a racist. This changes nothing.

D'oh! you blew it.

The officer was hand picked by a black police commissioner to teach other cops how NOT do racial profiling. I'm gonna have to side with the commissioner's professional judgment over your ESP on this one.

Dark Helmet
23rd July 09, 10:22 PM
How not? It's not like police don't kill innocent people fairly regularly in drug raids, home invasions, "accidental" shooting, assaults etc.

I HAD TO READ THIS A FEW TIMES. A cop participates in a drug raid on a home that is suspected of selling drugs and a bad guy ends up dead during the , as you call it, an 'assault'. And this is in your view cops acting out and going above the law?


This is allowed and people rarely say anything because a few assholes value some perceived notion of order above human life. So, cops who do their jobs are assholes. But a drug dealer who dies during said drug raid is what in your view?

Knave
23rd July 09, 10:27 PM
Greetings.

I don't know how it is wherever Kracker lives, but around these united states I vaguely recall many home invasions ending in the rape and murder of the victims. Yet somehow the police are enforcing tyranny if they shoot aggressive invaders to protect the lives of the victims and officers involved?

HappyOldGuy
23rd July 09, 10:47 PM
I'm still trying to figure out if you are mirror kracker, or he is mirror knave.

kracker
23rd July 09, 10:48 PM
Greetings.

I don't know how it is wherever Kracker lives, but around these united states I vaguely recall many home invasions ending in the rape and murder of the victims. Yet somehow the police are enforcing tyranny if they shoot aggressive invaders to protect the lives of the victims and officers involved?

I meant this kind of home invasion. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathryn_Johnston_shooting

This type also often ends in the murder of the victims. For the record I have absolutely no problem with police or anyone else shooting home invaders. However, police response times are such that they are minutes away when the seconds count (I don't blame them for this, it's only natural seeing as they can't teleport). This means that the only solution to the home invasion situation which you are referring to is personal gun ownership, which the tyrants oppose because they want a monopoly on force. Also the armed and unidentified home invader may be one of theirs.

Gbemi
24th July 09, 07:56 AM
This is important news. Obviously, Gates will have to re-think his approach if he is going to continue his 'campaign'.

While the officer's racist quotient may be very low, his a$$h0le quotient remains extremely high. As will Gates' if he continues without evidence.

(i

TheLordHumungus
24th July 09, 11:21 AM
I meant this kind of home invasion. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathryn_Johnston_shooting

Dammit Kracker, that was obviously a dangerous drug kingpin who needed to be taken out. She must have disguised herself as a 90 yr old woman to avoid suspicion, which the liberal media just went along with.

I mean, WTF ;)

Fearless Ukemi
24th July 09, 11:31 AM
I blame the judge that signed the no knock warrant. But even more so, I blame the lawmakers who even allow the bullshit no knock warrants in the first place.

TheLordHumungus
24th July 09, 11:33 AM
D'oh! you blew it.

The officer was hand picked by a black police commissioner to teach other cops how NOT do racial profiling. I'm gonna have to side with the commissioner's professional judgment over your ESP on this one.

Oh, well if the commissioner was black then he couldn't have chosen an officer guilty of profiling to teach about profiling. Being a minority pig makes you racially infallible.

Oops. (http://www.facsnet.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=195:look-at-racial-profiling-06-01&catid=75:archives&Itemid=100003)
Some minority officers may be just as harsh on blacks and other minorities. They may feel pressure from peers and supervisors to treat black and Hispanic suspects as tough, if not tougher, than white offenders if they choose to assimilate into the department and be accepted within the police subculture.

kracker
24th July 09, 11:36 AM
I blame the judge that signed the no knock warrant. But even more so, I blame the lawmakers who even allow the bullshit no knock warrants in the first place.

In all fairness to the judge, the cops in question lied their asses off to get that no knock warrant.

In an attempt to justify the no-knock warrant, the Atlanta Police Department initially claimed that the police were searching for drug dealers after a police informant was said to have bought crack cocaine at Johnston's home earlier in the day. However, both a federal and state investigation revealed that this was untrue.[10] In the affidavit police used to obtain a search warrant for Johnston's house, Atlanta, Georgia narcotics officers alleged their informant bought drugs inside Johnston's home earlier in the day from a man named "Sam", and that the home had video surveillance equipment justifying the no knock warrant. In an interview with Atlanta television station WAGA a few days after Johnston's shooting, the informant denied having gone to her house and said that after the shooting, the police pressured him to lie and say that he had.[10]

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathryn_Johnston_shooting#cite_note-CNN1-9)

TheLordHumungus
24th July 09, 11:36 AM
I blame the judge that signed the no knock warrant. But even more so, I blame the lawmakers who even allow the bullshit no knock warrants in the first place.

But certainly not the two ppl who forcibly entered an elderly woman's home, shot her, then left her handcuffed while she bled to death. What responsibility could they have?

How's that badge taste, dude?

TheLordHumungus
24th July 09, 11:38 AM
You're a cold-call salesman.

I don't even need to say self pwnt.

Talk about depriving people of liberty. Their valuable time is being usurped.

Sleep is being interrupted of nightshift workers.

Meals, TV, and beating off all interrupted

Babies are awoken.

Muscles have been strained reaching across an end table.

Drinks spilled.

All needlessly.

You suck. The federal government had to create a special method of protection against your kind for god's sake.

Screw you, jerk.

But telemarketers don't murder old ladies in their homes.

Fuck you, pig.

TheLordHumungus
24th July 09, 11:40 AM
The statements I was responding to do not deserve a debate. The response given will be the response he continues to get until he can make a valid point.

But what does that have to do with your assertion I'm incapable of physical speech?

kracker
24th July 09, 11:59 AM
I'm still trying to figure out if you are mirror kracker, or he is mirror knave.

Here's the basic deal between Knave and I: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_and_Knaves

you just have to replace the word knight with the word kracker.

Fearless Ukemi
24th July 09, 12:52 PM
But certainly not the two ppl who forcibly entered an elderly woman's home, shot her, then left her handcuffed while she bled to death. What responsibility could they have?

How's that badge taste, dude?


Tastes like chicken.

Hating the cops isn't going to change anything. Your time would be more effectively spent hating the people who give them their power. You gotta change things from the top because the cops are just the grunts.

Fearless Ukemi
24th July 09, 12:56 PM
In all fairness to the judge, the cops in question lied their asses off to get that no knock warrant.

In an attempt to justify the no-knock warrant, the Atlanta Police Department initially claimed that the police were searching for drug dealers after a police informant was said to have bought crack cocaine at Johnston's home earlier in the day. However, both a federal and state investigation revealed that this was untrue.[10] In the affidavit police used to obtain a search warrant for Johnston's house, Atlanta, Georgia narcotics officers alleged their informant bought drugs inside Johnston's home earlier in the day from a man named "Sam", and that the home had video surveillance equipment justifying the no knock warrant. In an interview with Atlanta television station WAGA a few days after Johnston's shooting, the informant denied having gone to her house and said that after the shooting, the police pressured him to lie and say that he had.[10]

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathryn_Johnston_shooting#cite_note-CNN1-9)

Ok, so the cops in this case are scum. My point still stands that as long as no knock warrants are legal, scum are going to have the power to carry out shit like this.

Zendetta
24th July 09, 01:46 PM
No-knock warrants, etc, are a bad thing, and many genuine abuses have resulted.

But that is irrelevant to the subject of Mr. Gates' "victimization" at the hands of "racist police".

kracker
24th July 09, 02:11 PM
Ok, so the cops in this case are scum. My point still stands that as long as no knock warrants are legal, scum are going to have the power to carry out shit like this.

I agree 100%. Without the enablers (ie politicians, badge licking voters etc) police would never be doing (or at least getting away with) this kind of stuff.

Zendetta
24th July 09, 02:12 PM
Kracker, where do you live?

HappyOldGuy
24th July 09, 02:14 PM
But that is irrelevant to the subject of Mr. Gates' "victimization" at the hands of "racist police".

I don't think anyone here other than the bobsy twins are arguing racism, but do you really wanna dispute victimization. I mean I think the cop was fine up the the arrest part, but there is no fucking way to justify that.

Kein Haar
24th July 09, 02:33 PM
The nigro president himself sez teh raci1st cop is a good guy now.

So, thred cl0sed.

Kein Haar
24th July 09, 02:35 PM
But telemarketers don't murder old ladies in their homes.

Fuck you, pig.

Ok, Dalton.

You and Springheeled jack should probably compare notes on how to dump defenseless drunks on their heads and see who can make the most pink fizz come out their ears after YOU over-serve them.

Here's some booze everyone. We're gauranteeing it'll induce some of you to act like assholes, so here's a gorilla to whoop your ass when that time comes. Or 20 of them...who'll just wind up calling the cops anyway (my favorite part)! Doubling up on the authoritah when the first useless wave crumbles.

Brutality is brutality, and you cretins get away with A TON of it while counting on the lack of reliability in your own patrons.

Meanwhile we have cameras on us constantly amongst other powerful checks. You dopes don't even have to write a report.

True.

Hey...answer my question about how many times you've been charged with obstructing. You were doing some cock-waving awhile go while trying to tell me how much time you've spent sitting idly in court compared to me.

Cuz on the tails of that you said how you never find it neccesary to identify yourself.

I wonder if Che Guavara ever showed up to his court dates and plead guilty to probation and stuff. l-o-l. It's funny how you don't i.d. yourself, but then you end up going to the court date anyway.

So?

Zendetta
24th July 09, 03:08 PM
I don't think anyone here other than the bobsy twins are arguing racism, but do you really wanna dispute victimization. I mean I think the cop was fine up the the arrest part, but there is no fucking way to justify that.

I was specifically responding to TLH and Kracker's attempts to derail. Whether Gates was a "victim" or not is worth discussing - but if "Being an Asshole" is a crime its pretty apparent the officer was also guilty of same.

Funny thing to me: this incident *may actually further the national dialogue on race, as the nation's preeminent scholar and commentator on race relations is now completely exposed for using the race card (I fucking hate that term) to cover up his own lack of integrity.

(* but is more likely to provide more grist for the bullshit mill)

As we've discussed before, many white people do not feel safe criticizing ridiculous behavior for fear of being accused of racism - I think that dynamic is "bad" for society. This incident shows just how much the "Race Card" is really a Joker (or perhaps a Suicide King?)

Like I said, a black man can now play the role of "elitist asshole". We've come a long way!

Zendetta
24th July 09, 03:11 PM
The sad thing to me: up to this point I have had a lot of respect for Gates.

His writings and documentaries show a fine mind at work, compassionate and aware of nuance and context. Sad to see someone like that behave so badly.

But I do LOL at the "Black Man in America" trope - cause a Brother will catch it way worse in Africa (or an all-black ghetto in the US)

Fearless Ukemi
24th July 09, 03:22 PM
The cop's side of the story is the top headline on MSN at the moment.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32122233/ns/today-today_people?GT1=43001



The white police officer who was criticized by President Barack Obama for arresting a black Harvard professor outside his home has fired back at the president and other critics, refusing to apologize for his actions.

In an exclusive one-on-one interview with television station WHDH that TODAY aired Friday, Sgt. James Crowley, an 11-year veteran of the Cambridge Police Department, also said he was aware when he arrested professor Henry Louis Gates Jr. that it would be seen as controversial and bring unwanted attention on him. But, he insisted, Gates’ aggressive behavior left the officer with no choice.

“I really didn’t want to have to take such a drastic action because I knew it was going to bring a certain amount of attention, unwanted attention, on me. Nonetheless, that’s how far professor Gates pushed it and provoked and just wouldn’t stop,” Crowley said.

The incident happened on Thursday, July 16. On Wednesday, July 22, Obama was asked about it at his press conference regarding his efforts to pass a national health care plan. The president said that police acted “stupidly” in arresting the professor, who is a personal friend of Obama’s.

On Thursday, Cambridge Police Commissioner Robert Haas said he was “deeply pained” by Obama’s comments and defended Crowley. On Friday, Crowley was present at a midday press conference called by police union officials to defend police conduct during the incident, but he did not speak or answer questions from press.

Gates, who is one of the nation’s leading scholars on race relations in America, has also jumped into the fray, offering a description of what happened that night that is widely at odds with the story told by Crowley and Cambridge police.

Video


Mass. police unions ask Obama for apology
July 24: Massachusetts police union leaders stand with the officer who arrested Henry Louis Gates and ask President Barack Obama and the state's governor to apologize for their comments on the incident.
MSNBC


Gates had come home that night in a hired car after a prolonged absence and found he couldn’t get into his home. A neighbor called police to report a possible break-in at the house by two black men wearing backpacks.

Responding to the call, Crowley said he encountered Gates at his front door.

“I asked him if he would step outside and speak with me, and he said, ‘No, I will not,’ and again words to the effect of ‘What's this about?’ ” Crowley said. “And I said, ‘I’m Sergeant Crowley from the Cambridge Police Department. I’m investigating a break-in in progress.’ And he responded, ‘Why? Because I’m a black man in America?’ in a very agitated tone, and again I thought that was a little strange.”

Differing accounts
Gates is 5-foot-7 and navigates with the aid of a cane, and Crowley said he did not fit the profile of a burglar. “His appearance did lead me to believe maybe this wasn't your typical breaking-and-entering type person experience, however, that response from him was a little strange; uncommon in my experience,” Crowley said.

The officer said he asked Gates if there was another person in the residence because the call to police had mentioned two people. “I wasn’t expecting his response, which was ‘That’s none of your business.’ To me that’s a strange response for somebody that has nothing to hide,” Crowley said.

After telling Gates several times that he was acting disorderly, the officer said he finally arrested him on disorderly conduct charges, which were later dropped.

“I was leaving as I reached the porch, and I was aware that now he was following me because he was still yelling about racism and black men in America, and that he wasn’t somebody to be messing with,” Crowley said in the interview, which initially aired on NBC affiliate WHDH in Boston.

Gates told CNN a totally different story.

“I said, ‘This is my house, I’m a Harvard professor. I live here,’ ” Gates said. “He said, ‘Can you prove it?’ I said, ‘Just a minute.’ And I turned my back, I walked into the kitchen to get my Harvard ID and my Massachusetts driver’s license. He followed me without permission. I gave him the 2 IDs and I demanded to know his name and badge number. He wouldn’t say anything. He was just very upset and I said, ‘Why are you not responding to me? Are you not responding to me because you’re a white officer and I’m a black man?’ ”

Gates said Crowley turned and walked outside onto the porch with the professor following. Outside, Gates said he found the porch filled with police officers. “It looked like a police convention, there were so many policemen outside,” Gates said. “I stepped out on my porch and said, ‘I want to know your colleague’s name and his badge number.’ This officer said, ‘Thank you for accommodating my earlier request. You are under arrest.’ ”

He said, he said
Gates called Crowley “a rogue policeman. Look how tumultuous I am. I am 5-foot-7 and weigh 150 pounds and my tumultuous, outrageous action was to demand that he give me his name and his badge number.”

Crowley said it wasn’t that way at all.

“He was the one that was being provocative,” the officer said. “This wasn’t a back-and-forth exchange of banter or arguing. This was one-sided. I was profusely telling him to calm down during this whole exchange because I really didn’t want this either.”

Crowley teaches a course on racial profiling to cadets and officers at the Cambridge Police Academy and insists he is not a racist. He said he didn’t expect President Obama to weigh in as emotionally as he did.

“I was a little surprised and disappointed that the president, who didn’t have all the facts by his own admission, then weighed in on the events of that night, and then made a comment that you know really offended not just the officers in the Cambridge Police Department, but officers around the country,” Crowley said.

The officer added, “I have tremendous amount of respect and support the president of the United States and everything that he’s trying to do in this day and age, so I think it’s disappointing.”

Obama responds
As the controversy grew, Obama refused to back down, though some of his aides have tried their best to diminish it.

“I have to say I’m surprised by the controversy surrounding my statement, because I think it was a pretty straightforward commentary that you probably don’t need to handcuff a guy — a middle-aged man who uses a cane who was in his own home,” Obama said in an ABC News interview Thursday night.

On Friday said he made a poor choice of words when he said Cambridge police officers "acted stupidly" but stopped short of apologizing for the remark.

The president said race continues to be a sensitive issue and he hopes the incident becomes "a teachable moment."

In a brief foray into the White House briefing room, Obama told reporters he continues to believe that there was an "overreaction'' by police in arresting Gates and added that Gates "probably overreacted as well."

The president said he called Sgt. Crowley and believes him to be an outstanding officer.

"I want to make clear that in my choice of words I think I unfortunately gave an impression that I was maligning the Cambridge Police Department or Sergeant Crowley specifically," the president said. "I could have calibrated those words differently. And I told this to Sgt. Crowley."

Obama added: "My hope is that as a consequence of this event this ends up being what’s called ‘a teachable moment,' where all of us instead of pumping up the volume spend a little more time listening to each other and try to focus on how we can generally improve relations between police officers and minority communities.”

He said it was "unfortunate" that his choice of words "didn't illuminate, but rather contributed to more media frenzy."

Lohff
24th July 09, 03:22 PM
Ok, so the cops in this case are scum. My point still stands that as long as no knock warrants are legal, scum are going to have the power to carry out shit like this.
No knock warrants are necessary sometimes. If you want to argue that the burden of proof should be raised, hey I'm with you. But to demand that officers knock when the warrant is for the home of a man who has a history of armed violence would be fucking retarded, especially if they have reasonable evidence that the man may be armed when the warrant would be served.

Kein Haar
24th July 09, 03:23 PM
Pastor Manning chimes in:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkyFJyP5I6M

Zendetta
24th July 09, 03:36 PM
^^^ Did... did he... did he refer to the president as "Long-legged Mack Daddy"??!??!

Sweet Jeebus, that's fucking hysterical.

Zendetta
24th July 09, 03:43 PM
A quick google shows Manning to be quite a *ahem* "colorful character".

One the one hand, he wants Harlem to be racially segregated (boo!), but on the other hand he refers to Oprah as the "Whore of Babylon".

His church's website has all of the subtley of a rhinocerous with rabies:

http://atlah.org/

Ajamil
24th July 09, 04:20 PM
Pastor Manning chimes in:

http://caramelcomments.com/import/graphics/Boondocks/uncle_ruckus_1.jpg

He does have a bit of a point on the criminal profiling though, but he gets progressively more crank-like as the video goes on. It's like some imp on his shoulder is going, "Just say the darkie had it coming, you know that's what you mean, why sugar coat it?"

Zendetta
24th July 09, 05:28 PM
^^^ lol, that's awesome.

I just saw that Obama has taken it back and is going to have both Gates and the Cop over to the White House for beers. That is soooo cool.

Zendetta
24th July 09, 06:00 PM
OMG this keeps getting better. I can't believe I didn't notice this earlier: the cop's name is James Crowley.

Gates got arrested by Jim Crowley!!!!!

lololololololololololololololololololololololololo lolololololololololol

FriendlyFire
24th July 09, 07:19 PM
When a prominent leader of the black community, a Harvard professor, gets caught making up bull about "Being mistreated by racist cops!" It sure helps discredit many of the less educated, and less law abiding, blacks who cry the same mantra.

That makes me happy, because I believe it is largely bullshit that has not been dropped from the 60's.

DAYoung
24th July 09, 07:29 PM
Excellent.

It's a small price to pay for your happiness.

TheLordHumungus
25th July 09, 12:47 PM
Ok, Dalton.

You and Springheeled jack should probably compare notes on how to dump defenseless drunks on their heads and see who can make the most pink fizz come out their ears after YOU over-serve them.

Here's some booze everyone. We're gauranteeing it'll induce some of you to act like assholes, so here's a gorilla to whoop your ass when that time comes. Or 20 of them...who'll just wind up calling the cops anyway (my favorite part)! Doubling up on the authoritah when the first useless wave crumbles.

Brutality is brutality, and you cretins get away with A TON of it while counting on the lack of reliability in your own patrons.

Meanwhile we have cameras on us constantly amongst other powerful checks. You dopes don't even have to write a report.

True.

Hey...answer my question about how many times you've been charged with obstructing. You were doing some cock-waving awhile go while trying to tell me how much time you've spent sitting idly in court compared to me.

Cuz on the tails of that you said how you never find it neccesary to identify yourself.

I wonder if Che Guavara ever showed up to his court dates and plead guilty to probation and stuff. l-o-l. It's funny how you don't i.d. yourself, but then you end up going to the court date anyway.

So?

Alright Roscoe P Coltrane,

I love charges like obstruction. That's one of the 200 chages a pig will add to the primary one to make sure something sticks. That way when you show in court that the original offense he charged you with is bullshit, he can always fall back on one of the many others.

It shows a lack of confidence in his own competence.

Dagon Akujin
25th July 09, 01:48 PM
^^^^^^^I once saw a group of cops give tickets to a group of my friends for, get this, not wearing shoes. The ticket they wrote was for "obstructing pedestrian traffic", which my friends were apparently doing by sitting on benches and the steps to a closed bank. The cops said this charge worked because they tried to walk right through my friends, and since my friends are not incorporeal ghosts, couldn't do so.

Of course, this was right after the cops drove their police cruiser onto a public sidewalk, telling everyone to get off the street because they were blocking the sidewalks.

I've got tons of crazy stories of police acting stupidly. However, from all the info I've seen on this case, it seems to me like the professor was just mad about reparations and wanted to complain about being black.

And I've seen this behavior from tons of people. I had a black student spraypaint BITCH on a school wall complain that he only got in trouble because he was black. No, idiot, you got in trouble because two days later you still have paint all over your hands. Fucking christ.

Ajamil
25th July 09, 02:22 PM
Old friend's mom worked for a juvee hall. Most ridiculous charge she ever saw was "loitering by a tree."

MSphinx
25th July 09, 03:58 PM
I used to go out with a girl, but she moved away to the continent. On our last day together, we drove up to the ferry, steamed up the car windows, and then said our goodbyes. I watched her go into the boat. I said I'd stay and maybe wave at her if she gets a chance to see me.

I stood in the port parking lot and waited for hours. I wasn't going to leave until the ferry headed off. Then a big black car drove up behind me, and some suited men came out. Some motherfucker had called the fucking cops on me for waiting in the port, thinking I had maybe placed a bomb on the thing. Keep in mind I was not the only one there, but then again I was the only kinda brown one.

I had to give my ex's name, address, telephone number, etc. so they could verify it with the ship's records. And I never got to wave her off. Worst fucking day ever.

WarPhalange
25th July 09, 05:14 PM
I used to date a girl, her daddy was quite rich, owned a bunch of land near the mountains that he logged. We used to drive past the logging road gates in a little Suzuki Samurai and have picnics, hunt deer, and make love like seals on the soft pine needles covering the forest floor.

One day, just when we arrived at the entrance to her fathers land, an old VW Bus rolled up and 3 long haired hippies in khakis and birkenstocks got out. Turns out a spotted owl was found in the property and all of the land was being set aside for a preserve, her father was only paid pennies on the dollar for his land.

They had to move to Montana where the last of his property was located. That was one of the worst months of my life.

Good for the owl. And good for the hippies. I love when stories have a happy ending.

kracker
25th July 09, 05:21 PM
I used to date a girl, her daddy was quite rich, owned a bunch of land near the mountains that he logged. We used to drive past the logging road gates in a little Suzuki Samurai and have picnics, hunt deer, and make love like seals on the soft pine needles covering the forest floor.

One day, just when we arrived at the entrance to her fathers land, an old VW Bus rolled up and 3 long haired hippies in khakis and birkenstocks got out. Turns out a spotted owl was found in the property and all of the land was being set aside for a preserve, her father was only paid pennies on the dollar for his land.

They had to move to Montana where the last of his property was located. That was one of the worst months of my life.

That really sucks but I'm glad you brought this up as this is a perfect example of where my live and let live philosophy works for everyone, even hardcore conservatives. You see, unless these were a rare breed of heavily armed non-peaceful hippies I assume some federal or state agency backed by you know whats were the actual ones responsible for forcing your girl's family off the land. If the government and their thugs were trusted/relied upon less that would never have happened. Also the hippies in question would be way too high of legal weed to give a shit about spotted owls. See, everyone wins!

Dagon Akujin
25th July 09, 05:32 PM
I used to date a girl, her daddy was quite rich, owned a bunch of land near the mountains that he logged. We used to drive past the logging road gates in a little Suzuki Samurai and have picnics, hunt deer, and make love like seals on the soft pine needles covering the forest floor.

One day, just when we arrived at the entrance to her fathers land, an old VW Bus rolled up and 3 long haired hippies in khakis and birkenstocks got out. Turns out a spotted owl was found in the property and all of the land was being set aside for a preserve, her father was only paid pennies on the dollar for his land.

They had to move to Montana where the last of his property was located. That was one of the worst months of my life.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3237/2606028904_aa5778780f.jpg

Fearless Ukemi
25th July 09, 08:31 PM
So, will this be a friendly drink or not?

http://news.aol.com/article/harvard-scholar-says-its-time-to-move-on/579147

kracker
25th July 09, 09:31 PM
I want pot legalized. I want less government regulations. However, I want some armed cops around to protect my stuff from anarchists and my sweet ass from rapists. They are everywhere, just waiting for the po-po to go away.

Sounds to me like we don't disagree on all that much. I don't want em to go completely away either. I've repeatedly stated that I'm a minarchist not an anarchist. All I want is a) equal treatment of police under the law. I know not all cops are bad people but the ones that are have the leeway act above the law. Ironically this makes them anarchists in sense that they operate outside legal frameworks with no consequences and b) less government regulation via a move away from a "law based" society to a "rights based" society (ie you have the right to security so no assraping, you have the right to life so no murder, you have the right to property so no theft etc.). This eliminates the retarded laws making it so that the only people who would even have a confrontation with a cop deserve to get beat down anyways.

TheLordHumungus
25th July 09, 10:09 PM
Good for the owl. And good for the hippies. I love when stories have a happy ending.

And lets not forget, good for his ex. She really dodged a bullet there. she should be thanking those birds.

Ajamil
26th July 09, 01:44 AM
Moving to Montana is the worst fucking month for anybody.

EuropIan
26th July 09, 06:08 AM
I used to date a girl, her daddy was quite rich, owned a bunch of land near the mountains that he logged. We used to drive past the logging road gates in a little Suzuki Samurai and have picnics, hunt deer, and make love like seals on the soft pine needles covering the forest floor.

One day, just when we arrived at the entrance to her fathers land, an old VW Bus rolled up and 3 long haired hippies in khakis and birkenstocks got out. Turns out a spotted owl was found in the property and all of the land was being set aside for a preserve, her father was only paid pennies on the dollar for his land.

They had to move to Montana where the last of his property was located. That was one of the worst months of my life.
I think you forgot the pathos part of your pathos argument

Kein Haar
26th July 09, 09:43 AM
Alright Roscoe P Coltrane,

I love charges like obstruction. That's one of the 200 chages a pig will add to the primary one to make sure something sticks. That way when you show in court that the original offense he charged you with is bullshit, he can always fall back on one of the many others.

It shows a lack of confidence in his own competence.

That's fine. Don't answer. My original assumption, I'm sure, is correct.

WarPhalange
26th July 09, 11:55 AM
Moving to Montana is the worst fucking month for anybody.

Hahahaha!

nihilist
26th July 09, 11:57 AM
It's especially funny if you put "fucking" in italics.

WarPhalange
26th July 09, 11:58 AM
That's fine. Don't answer. My original assumption, I'm sure, is correct.

I do get pissed though when someone say breaks into a store to steal something, and then gets charged with robbery, trespassing, breaking and entering, and anything else they can think of. I mean fuck, he wasn't thinking "Oh shit, I'm going to walk into that store when I'm not supposed to! Trespassing is so fucking hardcore!"

What do you have to say about that?

Spade: The Real Snake
26th July 09, 12:12 PM
I do get pissed though when someone say breaks into a store to steal something, and then gets charged with robbery, trespassing, breaking and entering, and anything else they can think of. I mean fuck, he wasn't thinking "Oh shit, I'm going to walk into that store when I'm not supposed to! Trespassing is so fucking hardcore!"

What do you have to say about that?

At the very least, if they are "Trespassed" and enter the store again, the store owner can have the police remove that individual from the store for violation of the order. It allows the store owner a modicum of control over whom can or cannot be in their store within reason. They might serve their time or perform community service for the B&E but fuck it if they want his ass in the store again.

Think of it this way, it keeps homeless from bothering you while shopping in Wal-Mart and from taking Hobo Baths in the restroom while you are trying to rid yourself of that Egg McMuffin. If STEEV had the same futon guy fucking with him in his store instead of over the internet, I am sure he would want to be rid of him

SFGOON
26th July 09, 12:24 PM
I do get pissed though when someone say breaks into a store to steal something, and then gets charged with robbery, trespassing, breaking and entering, and anything else they can think of. I mean fuck, he wasn't thinking "Oh shit, I'm going to walk into that store when I'm not supposed to! Trespassing is so fucking hardcore!"

What do you have to say about that?

Committing a theft from inside a building is a worse crime than doing so from someone's front yard. Sooo...

Theft - taking something that doesn't belong to you/depriving another of the use of their own stuff.

Burglary - entering a building w/o permission intending to commit a crime therein.

Malicious Mischief (vandalism) breaking property of another.

19 year old Johnny shithead decides to break into a liquor store to steal a bottle of Dahlwinne to celebrate his latest lacrosse victory. He smashes the $1501 window with a rock (mal misch) enters the building (burglary) and steals a $1501 bottle of scotch (theft.)

So - he is ultimately chraged with 1. Mal Misch 2. Theft 3. Burglary. The corresponding MIP? Those are ignored when there are felony crimes afoot.

That's how charges work. What happens up at the prosecutor's office is a different story, they usually subtract and just go after the worst one. But, the police have a duty to report each separate crime.

nihilist
26th July 09, 02:36 PM
Now if he just sucked some dick for that bottle of scotch he might only have to deal with a sodomy charge.

WarPhalange
26th July 09, 03:02 PM
That's how charges work. What happens up at the prosecutor's office is a different story, they usually subtract and just go after the worst one. But, the police have a duty to report each separate crime.

Makes sense. I do hate prosecutors, though. They always want to convict someone vs. finding the truth.

At least, that's what Law & Order tells me.

Ajamil
26th July 09, 03:36 PM
Justice with lawyers is about stories, not truth. Each lawyer is given facts, and they each come up with a different story to fit the facts, whoever has the most reasonable story at the end wins.

SFGOON
26th July 09, 04:44 PM
Makes sense. I do hate prosecutors, though. They always want to convict someone vs. finding the truth.

At least, that's what Law & Order tells me.

Yes and no. They want to rack up convictions, and usually to do that they make plea agreements that border on ridiculous.

It's about quantity, not quality with them - something that ultimately pisses off all involved parties. Except the DA, who proudly boasts of hundreds of convicted bad guys - all for loitering but he doesn't tell the public about that.

Commit a burg? Loitering. Stole the T.V? You forced the T.V. to loiter around you against it's will. Sodomy? Anal loitering. Solicitation of prostitution? Hooker loitering.

The fact-finding inquisition style of trial is technically unconstitutional, requiring the accused to waive many of their rights. But, it does seem to have it's merits and is often used in the juvenile justice system.

billy sol hurok
26th July 09, 07:10 PM
Moving to Montana is the worst fucking month for anybody.
Ha!

eJN_uWaVRfo

Raisin' it up.
Waxin' it down.

TheLordHumungus
26th July 09, 11:12 PM
That's fine. Don't answer. My original assumption, I'm sure, is correct.

What was your question?

Have I been charged with obstruction? Yes. When patrons call the police to my work, I refuse to give them any information. Once after an altercation, I told an officer that I wasn't involved and didn't see anything happen. Ppl said otherwise and he tried to charge me with obstruction for lying about what occurred. That was when I learned to simply tell pigs that I won't talk to them and then simply not respond.

My typical interaction with police is to ask if I'm being charged and am I free to leave. If they say I am free to go, I do so without sticking around to chat. If they say I am not (or give anything less definite than "you're free to leave") I refuse to answer any questions without a lawyer present. That usually gets rid of them if they're just fishing for info. Its another story if they actually intend to arrest me.

Never got an obstruction charge when I refused to show ID to an officer, though. I'll show my license if I'm stopped while driving, because carrying your license is required while driving. But if I'm stopped and not in my car, I don't think I'm obligated to carry or show ID.

SFGOON
27th July 09, 06:50 AM
Most of what you're saying is true - at least in Washington State. There's a state between an arrest and social contact called "terry" where you can be temporarily detained but you don't have to answer any questions or ID yourself. As you said above, you just can't lie.

The right to a lawyer is only invoked when you're under arrest. "Arrest" means they said "You're under arrest," not just putting you in handcuffs.

Obstruction alone usually results in prosecutor facepalm and is not pursued most of the time.

Lohff
27th July 09, 09:47 AM
There's a state between an arrest and social contact called "terry" where you can be temporarily detained but you don't have to answer any questions or ID yourself. As you said above, you just can't lie.
I'm as forthcoming as possible when it comes to a terry stop. I don't want to give an officer the ability to frisk me because I was "evasive" during initial contact.

TheLordHumungus
27th July 09, 11:34 AM
Don't be coy, you know that you tremble with anticipation waiting to receive your body cavity search.

Lohff
27th July 09, 12:03 PM
Don't be coy, you know that you tremble with anticipation waiting to receive your body cavity search.
Your feminine little fingers just get me all riled up.

Kein Haar
27th July 09, 12:20 PM
I'll show my license if I'm stopped while driving, because carrying your license is required while driving.

lol..ok.

TheLordHumungus
27th July 09, 12:39 PM
Your feminine little fingers just get me all riled up.

Its all in the technique. Just ask SFGoon. I hear rates of possession in Washington have skyrocketed just so they can go another round with him.

I'd speculate on Admiral Bitchtits, but bringing dogs into the mix is too messed up for me right now.

HappyOldGuy
27th July 09, 01:28 PM
I can guarantee you that next time that bitch won't oversalt my burger like she does to the popo.

kracker
27th July 09, 08:24 PM
One day in the summer of '93 I was standing outside the local Dairy Queen licking an ice cream cone (this is a great way to pick up chicks, especially if you let some of the ice cream dribble down your chin and get some on your nose) when a woman ran by screaming. I knew she was in trouble because she didn't even stop to ask for my phone number or flash her tits at me.

I went back to the business of eating my ice cream, and just when my tongue had found the right suggestive, erotic rhythm licking the shaft of the cone a fat man brandishing a knife and wearing a 'Fuck the police' t-shirt with an anarchist symbol on the back rushed by. He appeared to be shouting something at the woman and pursuing her. However, as the woman had a good start on the man and appeared to be a faster runner I ignored the large man as well and kept licking away.

Just as I had licked up all of the ice cream that had run down the sides of the cone during the distraction caused by the fat man I was interrupted by questions from a police officer who had arrived on the scene.

"Did you see anyone run by?"
"We had reports of an assault around here, did you see which way they went?"

I wasn't really in a talking mood. Once I found out I was not under arrest I just ignored him. It turns out that being tough to a cop while sexily licking an ice cream cone spreads female legs more than anything else. My reputation with the ladies soared and I had booty calls for months after that day!

Unfortunately, the woman did not have much endurance and the anarchist caught up to her near the woods down the road a ways from the Dairy Queen. He stabbed her forty times, chopped her up into little pieces, baked her into a cake, and then raped the cake. If only I had been more helpful to the police that woman might still be alive today, instead of growing mold covered in anarchist man-frosting in an evidence locker somewhere.

Huh I have a simiar, equally feasible story. I was on vacation in Chicago sitting and eating an ice cream cone when I see a black guy run past looking terrified. A fat pig with swastika tats waddled by later panting heavily. He turned to me and said that he was chasing a black guy whom he intended to shoot in the face 6 times and then plant a knife on. I didn't tell him. Had I been more helpful to the police that guy would probably be dead, instead of the current president of the United States.

Ajamil
27th July 09, 09:42 PM
NOB's was funnier, therefore true.

WarPhalange
27th July 09, 10:21 PM
Also lol @ Barack running from the fuzz. He could have killed that man 5 times before his fat ass even knew what was happening. THAT'S WHY HE'S PRESIDENT.

TheLordHumungus
27th July 09, 10:41 PM
No, no. Only Russia requires that kind of badassery in a leader.

http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/4879/putin1.jpg

TheLordHumungus
27th July 09, 10:54 PM
and just when my tongue had found the right suggestive, erotic rhythm licking the shaft

Why do all of your stories involve you licking the shaft, Nun? I mean c'mon man, nobody performs fellatio all the time. Do you have no other hobbies?

mrblackmagic
28th July 09, 01:14 AM
I like Henry Louis Gates, but it really seems like he was waving his dick in front of a snapping turtle.

My logic has always been don't fight with the cops in the streets. I have enough relatives law enforcement to know that they are the most paranoid somubitches in the world. Think about this way. When You are most likely to get killed while stopping somebody for speeding, you probably aren't too concerned with the individual's right to free and belligerent discourse. Your more concerned with keeping a situation from getting out of hand so you can go home that night. You will do whatever it takes, regardless of whomever the fuck the person may be in the world at large. Not mention they are the one's enforcing the abstract and totally unfounded concept of "your rights" so they could just easily turn blind eye because it is at their discretion.

I'm not saying cops get free reign to do what they want. If you want to fight a cop, you do it with the media or you do it in a court with twelve other people who hate cops as much as you do. Be smart about it.

TheLordHumungus
28th July 09, 01:45 AM
I'd like to feel for the cop who just wants to do his job and then leave it behind and go home after his shift, but the courtesy isn't extended the other way. If he fucks up on the job, I should allow the system to handle it. If I fuck up badly enough, he'll come to my house with a no knock warrant while I'm asleep with my family. There's no reciprocation, so fuck em.

If one time expects their bullshit to be treated like a day job, they can give the rest of us the same consideration.

Kein Haar
28th July 09, 07:26 AM
What kind of things are you into which justify no-knock warrants? Drug sales in combination with guns?

I'm guessing no.

And what family?

Jeez man....It's not often one does a straw man to himself! You're really thinking outside the box with this preferred fallacy of yours.

I usually call fugitives on the phone and say: "Hey there, you missed court. Gather bond at your convenience and meet me at the P.D."

They usually do.

TheLordHumungus
28th July 09, 11:00 AM
Just an example, I've personally never had a no knock warrant used on me or my home. But you make it sound like selling drugs and carrying firearms aren't a likely combination. Most dealers I know tend to be strapped.

I do have family and friends. I did not spring fully formed from the earth and am not an island unto myself.

And if your fugitives don't show, I'm sure you're kind enough not to bother them on their off time.

WarPhalange
28th July 09, 11:28 AM
Just an example, I've personally never had a no knock warrant used on me or my home. But you make it sound like selling drugs and carrying firearms aren't a likely combination. Most dealers I know tend to be strapped.

No, he's claiming you'd have to be doing both in order to get a no-knock warrant on your ass. They don't give those out on people who haven't paid their traffic tickets.


And if your fugitives don't show, I'm sure you're kind enough not to bother them on their off time.

He's a fugitive. He has no off time.

Kein Haar
28th July 09, 11:49 AM
What Poop said about no-knock.

And looky here, there's a list of people with active warrants which is updated weekly. Mostly for stupid crap, the worst usually being traffic misdemeanors.

Every week there's a handful new additions. The routine is to call them and tell them what's up and give them maybe two work days to come in on their own. If they don't, then yes, we'll start looking.

The detectives, having interviewed people, usually tell them: "If we get a warrant, we'll let you know...and you can come take care of it." That even goes for certainly felony stuff...depending on how much of a flight risk they are.

The random guy we're not familiar with with a forcible felony warrant...no. He won't get a phone call.

Of course, if I encounter the guy randomly...I have no choice there. He's gotta come with me immediately.

It's all quite reasonable most of the time.

SFGOON
28th July 09, 10:42 PM
No shit - this 19 year old kid flags me down the other day and says "I have a warrant in this city, could you arrest me?" And I was all "Sure!" Confirmed the warrant and sho' 'nuff. Misdemeanor Theft, failure to appear.

This is not a joke. This actually happened.

resolve
28th July 09, 11:04 PM
He suddenly developed a conscience. It happens.

TheLordHumungus
28th July 09, 11:04 PM
No, he's claiming you'd have to be doing both in order to get a no-knock warrant on your ass. They don't give those out on people who haven't paid their traffic tickets.

Nope apparently just on dangerous thugs and elderly black women.


He's a fugitive. He has no off time.

Nor do occupying forces.

TheLordHumungus
28th July 09, 11:07 PM
He suddenly developed a conscience. It happens.

Or wanted to avoid the extra hassle that occurs when they have to hunt you down. Some judges will be more lenient if you showed you're willing to be exceptionally cooperative.

TheLordHumungus
28th July 09, 11:10 PM
What Poop said about no-knock.

And looky here, there's a list of people with active warrants which is updated weekly. Mostly for stupid crap, the worst usually being traffic misdemeanors.

Every week there's a handful new additions. The routine is to call them and tell them what's up and give them maybe two work days to come in on their own. If they don't, then yes, we'll start looking.

The detectives, having interviewed people, usually tell them: "If we get a warrant, we'll let you know...and you can come take care of it." That even goes for certainly felony stuff...depending on how much of a flight risk they are.

The random guy we're not familiar with with a forcible felony warrant...no. He won't get a phone call.

Of course, if I encounter the guy randomly...I have no choice there. He's gotta come with me immediately.

It's all quite reasonable most of the time.

Things generally seem way more reasonable to the person who isn't being imprisoned. To the one who is, they cooperate best when things seem hopeless and inevitable.

SFGOON
29th July 09, 06:55 AM
Or wanted to avoid the extra hassle that occurs when they have to hunt you down. Some judges will be more lenient if you showed you're willing to be exceptionally cooperative.

Bingo. He also turned himself in Monday evening - no cash on his person - knowing we have court on Tuesday afternoons. NICE kid, just fucked up a few times and wanted to take care of it.

If he had come to me a few hours earlier, I could have just cuffed him up, had the clerk pull his warrant and present him to the court. I would have, too.

SFGOON
29th July 09, 06:56 AM
To the one who is, they cooperate best when things seem hopeless and inevitable.

No - nothing to lose, most likely to try to kill you or kick your ass. The cornered rat.

Kein Haar
29th July 09, 07:48 AM
Well, the n00b already covered it...I guess. That's fine. The n00b must think the brass cares about go-getters. The n00b will soon learn that the fuck-ups are often the ones who get speciality positions because it gets them out of their current supervisor's hair.

Anyway, yes, essentially:

Warrants have bond amounts. I tell them the bond amount and I expect they will show up with it. They are typically not facing imprisonment. They put down their security deposit and go home with a new court date.

If they don't have cash, and I find them randomly, they can even use a credit card or cash at the county jail.

If they simply can't afford it, they judge will often reduce their bond anyway.

That's the whole point, Dalton. I expect cooperation when they realize they AREN'T going to prison.

A no-bond warrant for a violent felony? We both know what's up with that one, so...no. That requires the element of surprise. That would be the last person to cooperate, despite his fate being a little more sealed in terms of short term incarceration.

The cornered rats (and especially the suicidal) are by far the LEAST cooperative.

I joke with Goon about being a goshdarn teabaggable newb in his vocation (omg I can't begin to express how much he sickens me, btw), but you are truly a
n00b at LIFE, what with these nuggets of faux wisdom about the economy, sociology, psychology etc.

bob
29th July 09, 07:55 AM
Admit it Kein, you love this shit.

kracker
29th July 09, 08:31 AM
Things generally seem way more reasonable to the person who isn't being imprisoned..

LMAO, that's generally the way things work.

Kein Haar
29th July 09, 09:30 AM
Although, things seem most unreasonable to the victim who's subjected to repeated court appearences because so-and-so won't show up. I know the public defender is expensive and all...

Good and valid reasons on the street include:

-Naw, naw, naw...I took care of that.

-I took care of that...naw, naw, naw.

-What? No, I don't know what you're talking about....ohhhh...maybe...hmmm. Naw, I thought I took care of that!

-Naw, I thought I took care of that. Hmm...maybe...ohhh. What? No, I don't know what you're talking about.

-I went to the first court date, and they said I took care of that. Yes, I went to court on that, and they said I wuz coo'.

-They said I wuz coo'. Yes, I went to the first court date. They said I took care of that, yes, I went to the first court date.

-What?? I took care of that!

-I took care of that! What??

Etc.

Zendetta
29th July 09, 10:42 AM
^^^ ROFL

HappyOldGuy
29th July 09, 11:06 AM
In all fairness, the one time I got picked up on a warrant. I had shown up for my court date and not been on the docket. And the police did show up at my house to pick me up on the misdemeanor warrant.

Yeah there is some backstory. It'll cost you booze.

Kein Haar
29th July 09, 12:53 PM
I remember your arrest. It was all over the news.

"Old dude busted 4 teh gays3x in ymca shower."

TheLordHumungus
29th July 09, 01:10 PM
I thought that Kein waiting in your shower to make the arrest was a little odd though.

HappyOldGuy
29th July 09, 01:13 PM
I remember your arrest. It was all over the news.

"Old dude busted 4 teh gays3x in ymca shower."

Actually when they ran my warrants for teh shower gays3x incident, I came up clean. That's why they let me off with a warning and some bruised knees.

Spade: The Real Snake
29th July 09, 01:30 PM
I thought that Kein waiting in your shower to make the arrest was a little odd though.
You sound upset they didn't invite you to the Lemon Party.

Kein Haar
29th July 09, 02:22 PM
What's a lemon party?

Zendetta
29th July 09, 02:59 PM
You don't want to know. Seriously, you don't.

Kein Haar
29th July 09, 03:09 PM
Oh, interesting.

Spade: The Real Snake
29th July 09, 04:27 PM
I AM TOO YOUNG TO BE INVITED!!! *****SOB******
Put on your Harry Potter costume and Uncle Lubell will be along shortly.
And I do mean SHORTLY {-}

SFGOON
29th July 09, 10:40 PM
The n00b will soon learn that the fuck-ups are often the ones who get speciality positions because it gets them out of their current supervisor's hair.

Oh, that's GREAT news for me. I am a SPECTACULAR fuckup. Just ask my FTO.

TheLordHumungus
29th July 09, 11:55 PM
You sound upset they didn't invite you to the Lemon Party.

Outraged! Is 28 old enough for that sort of event?

SFGOON
30th July 09, 06:52 AM
No. You need loose skin and droopy old man balls. Liver spots on the penis is a bonus. You are not invited.

TheLordHumungus
30th July 09, 12:28 PM
I like Henry Louis Gates, but it really seems like he was waving his dick in front of a snapping turtle.

My logic has always been don't fight with the cops in the streets. I have enough relatives law enforcement to know that they are the most paranoid somubitches in the world. Think about this way. When You are most likely to get killed while stopping somebody for speeding, you probably aren't too concerned with the individual's right to free and belligerent discourse. Your more concerned with keeping a situation from getting out of hand so you can go home that night. You will do whatever it takes, regardless of whomever the fuck the person may be in the world at large. Not mention they are the one's enforcing the abstract and totally unfounded concept of "your rights" so they could just easily turn blind eye because it is at their discretion.

I'm not saying cops get free reign to do what they want. If you want to fight a cop, you do it with the media or you do it in a court with twelve other people who hate cops as much as you do. Be smart about it.

"Open and shut case, Johnson. I saw this once when I was a rookie. Apparently this nigger broke in and put up pictures of his family everywhere. Let's sprinkle some crack on him and get out of here.'" (http://www.entertonement.com/clips/kntrpwmnmh--He's-Still-HereDave-Chappelle-Dave-Chappelle-Killin'-Them-Softly-Comedy-)