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Lebell
8th July 09, 12:58 PM
How nice, there is this organisation which wants to build a museum/center for tolerance within the city of Jerusalem.
Good idea, Israel could use some peace.
Except they are planning to build this architectural monstrosity ON A MUSLIM CEMETARY.

Way to go Israel.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7715921.stm

Shawarma
8th July 09, 01:00 PM
And just to show how eco friendly they are, they're gonna build it out of the bones of Palestinean infants killed in the struggle. That's recycling!

Lebell
8th July 09, 02:19 PM
the stupidity is strong in this plan.

Ajamil
8th July 09, 02:37 PM
How do +rep Israel? I can't tell if they just are lacking that much in tact, or if they are deliberately smearing their hand with their ass before extending it in peace.

Fearless Ukemi
8th July 09, 04:40 PM
Sometimes they remind me of a heel professional wrestler.

socratic
8th July 09, 10:10 PM
"WE'LL TAKE HEZBOLLAH DOOOOOOOOOWN ON MONDAY 14TH JULY AT SMASHFEST 2009! GAZA! WRESTLING IS WHAT WE DO BEST AND WRESTLING IS WHAT WE'LL DO MONDAY AT SMASHFEST! HEZBOLLAH HAS NO CHANCE! WOOOOOO!"

WarPhalange
8th July 09, 11:43 PM
If they really wanted to extend peace and tolerance, they'd pump money into renovating the cemetery, which according to the article is pretty run down.

bob
9th July 09, 12:20 AM
Sounds like a plot for Poltergeist VI.

Shawarma
9th July 09, 03:55 AM
Hilarious.

"Max Von Sydow, you gotta help us! We have an infestation of poltergeists!"
"Ah, do they throw things around at you?"
"No, they just walk up to us and explode."

mrblackmagic
9th July 09, 11:05 AM
HAHAHA!!!

Between this and Moran Atias, I'm converting and moving to Israel. That place is awesome.

Plasma
9th July 09, 07:46 PM
How nice, there is this organisation which wants to build a museum/center for tolerance within the city of Jerusalem.
Good idea, Israel could use some peace.
Except they are planning to build this architectural monstrosity ON A MUSLIM CEMETARY.

Way to go Israel.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7715921.stm

Give it a rest. We understand how much you hate jews. We haven't gone anywhere for over 5000 years, and we will be around 5000 years from now.

Cullion
9th July 09, 07:49 PM
Plasma, this is absurd. You're an educated man. Do you really see all criticism of right-wing zionist policy as an attack on all Jews?

If so, then you've been hoodwinked by an awesome propaganda campaign.

Plasma
9th July 09, 07:51 PM
Read between the lines. In the last week he started a "Holocaust wasn't so bad" thread and now "Israel is murdering Muslim ghosts" thread. He obviously has some grudge against the tribe, I am just calling him on it.

Cullion
9th July 09, 07:55 PM
He actually doesn't care one way or the other about people of Hebrew ancestry. They're individuals. I think that now he's found a way to piss you off in particular, he'll keep on pushing it, because Lebell loves a bite. And for that, he has my eternal respect.

In seriousness, the current Israeli government is beyond the pale. Way into apartheid-era south africa territory. That's not because 'Jews are evil', it's because 'Avigdor Lieberman and his friends' are mouthy, racist, beligerent cunts, and I hope I live to see them taken down.

socratic
9th July 09, 08:01 PM
Plasma, this is absurd. You're an educated man. Do you really see all criticism of right-wing zionist policy as an attack on all Jews?

If so, then you've been hoodwinked by an awesome propaganda campaign.

Yeah, but Lebell does this shit a lot.

WarPhalange
9th July 09, 10:15 PM
Give it a rest. We understand how much you hate jews. We haven't gone anywhere for over 5000 years, and we will be around 5000 years from now.

Israel pulled a bone-head move = I hate Jews.

That's something they don't teach you in school, kids.

Fearless Ukemi
9th July 09, 10:34 PM
But he does have a point because Lebell's holocaust thread = shit.

Lebell
10th July 09, 04:06 AM
Read between the lines. In the last week he started a "Holocaust wasn't so bad" thread and now "Israel is murdering Muslim ghosts" thread. He obviously has some grudge against the tribe, I am just calling him on it.

dude seriously, stfu okay?

i didnt start a thread with the holocaust wasnt so bad, it got culled from another thread and a mod named it that way.

now go cry ' zomg antisemitism' somewhere else.
im european, we dont care about your crying.

Lebell
10th July 09, 04:10 AM
He actually doesn't care one way or the other about people of Hebrew ancestry. They're individuals. I think that now he's found a way to piss you off in particular, he'll keep on pushing it, because Lebell loves a bite. And for that, he has my eternal respect.

i am wearing a brown shirt today but i swear thats a coincedence (sp.?!)
but i will eat a falafel and tip my local jew tonight to make plasma feel better.
well i wont really tip him since he overcharges me anyway, that little snake.





In seriousness, the current Israeli government is beyond the pale. Way into apartheid-era south africa territory. That's not because 'Jews are evil', it's because 'Avigdor Lieberman and his friends' are mouthy, racist, beligerent cunts, and I hope I live to see them taken down.

Yeah i hope for the downfall of the israeli state as we know it.
they are making the entire holy land into a campement with their walls and barbwire and watchtowers.

wait...

socratic
10th July 09, 05:33 AM
im european, we dont care about your crying.

I bet you don't. Man, you're making this too easy.

Lebell
10th July 09, 07:46 AM
I bet you don't. Man, you're making this too easy.

well i keep you into consideration, you get to play along with me so i have to keep things simple.
the last couple of times you made yourself look like an ass.
by keeping it simple im giving you a fighting chance.

kracker
10th July 09, 11:08 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bG65axXE-HY

Explains the secret hidden truth about what's really up with Israel, and who's behind it...

Virus
10th July 09, 12:06 PM
No, this explains the hidden truth:

rGsHUfl9xEE

Plasma
10th July 09, 02:33 PM
im european, we dont care about your crying.


Just because hating jews is the norm in Europe doesn't make it correct. I understand, you tried to wipe us off the planet and failed, now all you can settle for is hate. Trust me, we aren't going anywhere.

nifoc
10th July 09, 05:41 PM
I'm pretty sure that Plasma is trolling Lebell, there can't be that much butthurt over this.

Israel is pulling a stupid move here, and pointing that out has nothing to do with antisemitism.

Cullion
10th July 09, 05:42 PM
Yeah i hope for the downfall of the israeli state as we know it.
they are making the entire holy land into a campement with their walls and barbwire and watchtowers.

wait...

No. Israel has the potential to bring beautiful things to a dark region. Honest gentiles don't fucking fawn around refusing to criticise because they're embrassed about what the Germans did. They tell the truth as they see it and deal with any incoming flack.

The most dangerous enemy of the Jewish people today are not humanistic, skeptical gentiles who critcise Irsraelie govt. policy, they're bombastic neoconservative Mars-As-Christ worshippers who want you guys to fail in order to fulfull a crazy apocalyptic New Testament prophecy.

Your friends and your critics aren't mutually exclusive, Plasma.

Lebell
11th July 09, 04:58 AM
Just because hating jews is the norm in Europe doesn't make it correct. I understand, you tried to wipe us off the planet and failed, now all you can settle for is hate. Trust me, we aren't going anywhere.

DUDE!
If we wanted to wipe you out it would have been done.
dont be sucha ingrate, my grandfaasher was probably hiding yours.
show a little gratitude plz.

Lebell
11th July 09, 05:00 AM
No. Israel has the potential to bring beautiful things to a dark region. Honest gentiles don't fucking fawn around refusing to criticise because they're embrassed about what the Germans did. They tell the truth as they see it and deal with any incoming flack.

The most dangerous enemy of the Jewish people today are not humanistic, skeptical gentiles who critcise Irsraelie govt. policy, they're bombastic neoconservative Mars-As-Christ worshippers who want you guys to fail in order to fulfull a crazy apocalyptic New Testament prophecy.

Your friends and your critics aren't mutually exclusive, Plasma.

WUT?!
are you high again?
how is israel/region dark?!

guess what there's options of me going to syria.
talking about dark places huh?

Plasma
11th July 09, 09:51 AM
DUDE!
If we wanted to wipe you out it would have been done.
dont be sucha ingrate, my grandfaasher was probably hiding yours.
show a little gratitude plz.


Seriously, you believe that? The Netherlands killed 80% of their Jewish population. In fact my grandfathers were more likely SHOOTING yours at D-Day.

Fuck you, you LOST, our people still exist, in fact we are more powerful than we have been in two thousand years. Deal with it.

Lebell
11th July 09, 09:54 AM
Seriously, you believe that? The Netherlands killed 80% of their Jewish population. In fact my grandfathers were more likely SHOOTING yours at D-Day.
no way, mine were in russia at the time.


Fuck you, you LOST, our people still exist, in fact we are more powerful than we have been in two thousand years. Deal with it.
aaaahhhhhhh!!!! you admit it!!!
with how many are you?
do you have Hollywood in your grip?
fes up!!!


edit:is vin diesel one of yours? (always wanted to know that, seriosuly, is that guy white or black or jewish?wtf?)

Ajamil
11th July 09, 09:54 AM
Google had this to say on the subject
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_crPBCZok0RE/SldP2peTtnI/AAAAAAAAIUU/OwiGKXdGjD8/s400/isreal_google.jpg

Lebell
11th July 09, 09:58 AM
muahahahah....Google is along with Gott on our side!
muahahahahaaaa

MaverickZ
11th July 09, 11:38 AM
Google had this to say on the subject
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_crPBCZok0RE/SldP2peTtnI/AAAAAAAAIUU/OwiGKXdGjD8/s400/isreal_google.jpg
Well, what it really says is people don't know their geography.

WarPhalange
11th July 09, 06:32 PM
Seriously...

Zendetta
11th July 09, 06:58 PM
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_crPBCZok0RE/SldP2peTtnI/AAAAAAAAIUU/OwiGKXdGjD8/s400/isreal_google.jpg

"Israel is for Jews"

True or False?

I'd especially like to hear opinions from Cullion, Plasma, and Maverick. LeBell won't be able to resist chiming in either.

Ajamil
11th July 09, 11:40 PM
Isn't that why it was created?

Virus
12th July 09, 01:43 AM
Depends on which Jews you ask. The secular-left Jews saw Israel as a quasi-socialist state that would be a safe-haven for a persecuted people. For the fanatics it fulfills their messianic religious delusions.

socratic
12th July 09, 02:55 AM
Except that Zion was supposed to be established by the Messiah. I wonder how close the Judean borders and modern Israel's are? For one thing, Judea included Gaza.

WarPhalange
12th July 09, 03:04 AM
They're working on it.

AAAhmed46
12th July 09, 03:27 AM
Just because hating jews is the norm in Europe doesn't make it correct. I understand, you tried to wipe us off the planet and failed, now all you can settle for is hate. Trust me, we aren't going anywhere.


Look, there are jews who don't like isreal's foriegn policy. Critiqing a nation is different from critiqing a race of people, hell critiqing a religion is different from critiqing a race of people(though certainly, especially with jews and arabs critiqing religion can be linked to racism) Yes, im positive there are racists who critique isreal simply because it's jewish. But at the same time, the vast majority pick at it as a naiton. Hell jared cohen(a jew) interviewed hezbullah, and did not hide his jewishness, hell they even said they didn't care he was jewish(not that racism doesn't exist in lebanon)
Make no mistake, i think iIsreal is a great example in other ways for the middle east, hell it perfectly merges desert religious law with western governance and it's secular nature is petty damn good. But nothing i pefect.

EDIT: Hell, there are arabs in the IDF, i don't know how welcome they would be but, they ar there.

Virus
12th July 09, 03:31 AM
And so are the apocalyptic Christian lobby groups in the US.

The Iranian Mullahs and their proxy armies Hamas and Hizbollah think they are both Kuku-clocks. The real way to bring on Armageddon is to kill moar jews. I can has nuclear bombs now pls?

AAAhmed46
12th July 09, 03:35 AM
Secular athiest iranians want nukes. THey wanted them since Iraq invaded. Isreal isn't the one thoght iranians had when trying to develop nukes. Ahmedinajad wants the apocolypse thtas true, but the Iranian mullahs? Pfff, i doubt it, i think they just want to hang on to power.

Virus
12th July 09, 04:47 AM
If Iran gets a nuke it won't be secular atheist Iranians that decide when and where they are used.

Lebell
12th July 09, 05:34 AM
i blame the hot climate over there.
people get touchy.

also the lack of discipline with people from hot countries causes problems.
too many kids too little education etc.

Lebell
12th July 09, 05:36 AM
btw im going to send plasma a postcard when im in israel.

Ajamil
12th July 09, 08:27 AM
The real way to bring on Armageddon is to kill moar jews. I can has nuclear bombs now pls?

So Jews are like the health bar of the planet? Duuude.

Dark Helmet
12th July 09, 10:50 AM
btw im going to send plasma a postcard when im in israel.
After they read this thread Israeli customs won't let you leave the airport.

Lebell
12th July 09, 11:00 AM
After they read this thread Israeli customs won't let you leave the airport.

well lucky me for never using my real name on teh internet.

Dark Helmet
12th July 09, 11:02 AM
Well, listen dude. Mossad has agents everwhere. You know that neighbor who's been coming on to you. Mossad agent.

Lebell
12th July 09, 11:06 AM
Well, listen dude. Mossad has agents everwhere. You know that neighbor who's been coming on to you. Mossad agent.

the mossad can go and suck my balls.
ive met a guy once who was most likely a (very crappy) mossad agent.

Virus
12th July 09, 01:25 PM
So Jews are like the health bar of the planet? Duuude.

I don't get it. What do Islamic fanatics wanting to nuke Israel and bring on the apocalypse have to do with health bars?

Edit: Oh you mean health bars like in street fighter? I thought you mean like a place that serves freshly squeezed juices and stuff.

Ajamil
12th July 09, 01:46 PM
Less abstract in my random musing posts. Gotcha.

Edit: Not really abstract so much as muddled clarity.

Plasma
12th July 09, 02:08 PM
Look, there are jews who don't like isreal's foriegn policy. Critiqing a nation is different from critiqing a race of people, hell critiqing a religion is different from critiqing a race of people(though certainly, especially with jews and arabs critiqing religion can be linked to racism) Yes, im positive there are racists who critique isreal simply because it's jewish. But at the same time, the vast majority pick at it as a naiton. Hell jared cohen(a jew) interviewed hezbullah, and did not hide his jewishness, hell they even said they didn't care he was jewish(not that racism doesn't exist in lebanon)
Make no mistake, i think iIsreal is a great example in other ways for the middle east, hell it perfectly merges desert religious law with western governance and it's secular nature is petty damn good. But nothing i pefect.

EDIT: Hell, there are arabs in the IDF, i don't know how welcome they would be but, they ar there.

You missed the first thread. Lebell started out saying the Holocaust "wasn't so bad" and "jews manipulate the figures to serve their agenda." Now the next day he posted a "Israeli Jews are murdering Muslim ghosts" thread. This isn't about if you hate Israel you hate jews, it about Lebell being an anti-semitic douche.

Ajamil
12th July 09, 02:56 PM
His trolling does seem to be pointing that way right now, but is it cause or effect of all the WW2/Holocaust threads and their responses?

MaverickZ
12th July 09, 03:51 PM
"Israel is for Jews"

True or False?

I'd especially like to hear opinions from Cullion, Plasma, and Maverick. LeBell won't be able to resist chiming in either.
Your desire to find a "True" or "False" answer is a symptom of a very common problem with discussions on the internet. The need to have black and white decisions and "right" and "wrong" sides. There is very, very rarely such a thing in the real world, which is where Israel lies. There are very few discussions on the internet where the gray area in between is explored. Especially on Sociocide, where each user is convinced of their own intellectual superiority.

And really, you want an answer to a google search that isn't even a question? It would be more helpful to pose a real question.

Zendetta
12th July 09, 04:09 PM
Your desire to find a "True" or "False" answer is a symptom of a very common problem with discussions on the internet. The need to have black and white decisions and "right" and "wrong" sides. There is very, very rarely such a thing in the real world, which is where Israel lies. There are very few discussions on the internet where the gray area in between is explored. Especially on Sociocide, where each user is convinced of their own intellectual superiority.

And really, you want an answer to a google search that isn't even a question? It would be more helpful to pose a real question.

Heheheh.

It may amuse you to know that I was certain that someone would make this point, and I was fairly sure it would be you. You are not wrong, of course - "right" and "wrong" are words, not eternal objective, adamantine, truths.

But it was a real question.

Was/is Israel "for Jews?"

This could be your chance to spark one of those deeper, more nuanced discussions so popular with the kids these days!

MaverickZ
12th July 09, 04:13 PM
Heheheh.

It may amuse you to know that I was certain that someone would make this point, and I was fairly sure it would be you. You are not wrong, of course - "right" and "wrong" are words, not eternal objective, adamantine, truths.

But it was a real question.

Was/is Israel "for Jews?"

This could be your chance to spark one of those deeper, more nuanced discussions so popular with the kids these days!
I don't really understand the question. Are you asking is the land biblically reserved for the Jews? Which Israel are you asking about? The British mandate or the biblical one? Are you asking if Jews are the only people who can be citizens of Israel? Which Jews? The ones that live there now, i.e. Israeli born Jews or do you mean the entire diaspora? What do you mean by "for" and what do you mean by "Jews". I quiet sincerely don't understand the question.

Zendetta
12th July 09, 04:58 PM
I don't really understand the question. Are you asking is the land biblically reserved for the Jews? Which Israel are you asking about? The British mandate or the biblical one? Are you asking if Jews are the only people who can be citizens of Israel? Which Jews? The ones that live there now, i.e. Israeli born Jews or do you mean the entire diaspora? What do you mean by "for" and what do you mean by "Jews".

Yes. All of that!

In this context, I mean "for" as in 'culturally and politically beholden to', for lack of a better way to say it. By "Jews" I'm mostly referencing ethnicity and cultural grouping, as there are already many prominent secular Israelis.


I quiet sincerely don't understand the question.

Well, I am deliberately asking it in an oblique way, for my own nefarious purposes.

Some thoughts on the matter "Is Israel for Jews?":
Is the Modern Country of Israel meant to be a Ethnic Jewish Homeland?

To what degree is this idea rooted in other concepts (like Zionism) that would constitute unacceptable ethnocentrism among other groups?

Is "Israel as a Jewish Homeland" compatible with it being a multi-ethnic democracy?

Cullion
12th July 09, 05:30 PM
The definitive answer is that Israel is a noble ideal which has been temporarily hijacked by the nastiest* elements of Israeli society.

I've posted Einstein's concerns about the future of Israel here before. I believe that his warning went unheeded and is being proven valid by the misadventures of the current Israeli government. I refuse to be classified as an antisemite for expressing this view.


* By nastiest, I mean most paranoid and angry.

Cullion
12th July 09, 05:32 PM
Is "Israel as a Jewish Homeland" compatible with it being a multi-ethnic democracy?

Yes, with certain provisos. We're trying to achieve the same thing in many European countries. A lot of northern european countries still have monarchies and official state religions, alongside a massively liberal approach to people who don't fully sign up to those traditions. The quid pro quo is a certain basic loyalty to the new country you've chosen to live in, IMHO.

Israel, to it's great credit, already has established this with it's circassian and druze communities. Neither are Jewish, but both have gone to great pains to demonstrate their willingness to be part of the whole, volunteer for military service etc..

I've seen photographs of IDF soldiers on patrol sitting and sharing coffee and food with muslim Bedouin. This can work. It takes some patient thinkers on both sides to work.

MaverickZ
12th July 09, 05:57 PM
I refuse to be classified as an antisemite for expressing this view.
I don't think anyone called you an anti-semite. Rational people would not label you an anti-semite for that statement. Irrational people are not worth responding to in defense.

I'll try to respond to you, Zendetta, when I have some free time.

Cullion
12th July 09, 05:58 PM
Lebell isn't an anti-semite either. He's trolling the shit out of Plasma.

MaverickZ
12th July 09, 06:13 PM
Lebell isn't an anti-semite either. He's trolling the shit out of Plasma.
Um, ok.

Plasma
12th July 09, 07:56 PM
Lebell isn't an anti-semite either. He's trolling the shit out of Plasma.


Whatever you have to tell yourself.

Zendetta
12th July 09, 08:50 PM
lol.

LeBell isn't a Nazi.

He may or may not be an anti-semite.

He is certainly a Troll Extraordinaire.

Lebell
13th July 09, 04:26 AM
Dear Plasma,

Israel is building on a cemetary.

read it again.

Are you with me?

What if another country would be building a inquisition memorial building on a jewish cemetary?

would it be okay?

you are being very dumb and you need to calm down or i foresee a gong sau in the near future.

i am willing to make cocessions and prove to you im not an antisemite, im willing to videotape myself having unprotected sex with jewish AND arab girls.
im also willing to gong sau you wearing a swastikacape while you wear the star of david on your cape.

you can chose your trainwreck of failure.


now gimme a hug.

there...it's all good....

Zendetta
13th July 09, 10:42 AM
LeBell wins again.

Plasma
13th July 09, 03:34 PM
LeBell wins again.

LeBell lost when he posted this thread.

Lebell
13th July 09, 03:52 PM
plasma, i didnt post this thread.
it got culled from cullions thread ' odd things you believe in' .

WarPhalange
13th July 09, 04:11 PM
LeBell lost when he posted this thread.

Oh yeah!?!? YOUR MOM!!!

Lebell
13th July 09, 04:13 PM
zomg polish pooploops is hating on jewish plasma!!!
aaah it feels like good old Europe again...

thanks for making me feel at home!

so....who's up for a synagoge torch?
too much?
start out with a little bookburning shall we?

Zendetta
13th July 09, 04:35 PM
LeBell lost when he posted this thread.

Au contraire.

He posted a very valid critique of Israeli policy in a way that virtually insured that someone such as yourself would reply with "stfu, anti-semite!!!".

I really can't imagine you playing into his hands any easier, honestly.

But forget about LeBell - how do you weigh in on my "Is Israel for Jews?" query.

Cullion
13th July 09, 04:38 PM
Israel is for Jews. There's nothing wrong with that, from a European perspective. It's only really that awkward a question from an American perspective.

Zendetta
13th July 09, 05:02 PM
Because we foot the bill for Israel's toys?

Or because we are also living on borrowed/stolen land?

Cullion, you've made the point that changing ethnic demographics inevitably threaten either Jewish Hegemony or Multi-Ethnic Democracy in Israel - and didn't some Arab political party just recently get thoroughly marginalized?

I'm quite interested in hearing from some Real Jews (tm) on the matter.

Plasma
13th July 09, 05:20 PM
Au contraire.

He posted a very valid critique of Israeli policy in a way that virtually insured that someone such as yourself would reply with "stfu, anti-semite!!!".

I really can't imagine you playing into his hands any easier, honestly.

But forget about LeBell - how do you weigh in on my "Is Israel for Jews?" query.

You can critique Isreali policy all you want, I am not Israeli. Its only when anti-semites like Lebell use critiques of Israel as a cover for their racism do I respond.

As for your actually legitimate question. Israeli WAS created as a Jewish State, that is a fact. It is also true that Arabs that left Israel, now the Palestinians left on their own terms, Israel protected the Arabs that stayed.

Now for your question, is Israel for Jews only. No, Or as much as America is for Christians. However, Israel does exist as a place of Jewish sanctuary. See Operation Moses, Operation Joshua and Operation Solomon.

WarPhalange
13th July 09, 05:23 PM
People scream for Obama's blood for trying to prop up the dying Alzheimer's patient that is AIG -- which I agree should be laughed at for shitting his pants -- but those same people get boners for keeping Israel Jewish, even though it would fall in less than a second if we took its crutches away from it.

I have a friend who has a Jewish fiance. She is infatuated with Israel (she's actually been there, though), and wants to get married there and stay there. She can't become a citizen, though. Why? She's not Jewish. LOL "Get the fuck out, goya!!"

Odd bit of irony: she has blond hair and blue eyes.

WarPhalange
13th July 09, 05:26 PM
You can critique Isreali policy all you want, I am not Israeli. Its only when anti-semites like Lebell use critiques of Israel as a cover for their racism do I respond.

Wouldn't matter if he was fucking the foreskins of 100 dead Jewish children when he said it, his critique is still valid. Saying that it's irrelevant because he's biased is a load of shit and you know it.


Isreal protected the Arabs that stayed.

There are Arabs (who are also Muslim I believe) and I believe even Christians in the Israeli Parliament, as well. So Israel can't be compared to Iran or anyone else in the area in terms of government and freedoms for the people. But that doesn't mean we should let it slide when it drops the ball just because it's above average.

Zendetta
13th July 09, 05:26 PM
Now for your question, is Israel for Jews only. No, Or as much as America is for Christians.

That is a very dicey prospect, don't you think?

Especially given that, in the US, Church and State are officially separated via the Bill of Rights. Also, given that in Israel, the Official Religion is at least partially attached to a particular ethnicity.

Lebell
13th July 09, 05:31 PM
You can critique Isreali policy all you want, I am not Israeli. Its only when anti-semites like Lebell use critiques of Israel as a cover for their racism do I respond.
what makes me antisemetic?


As for your actually legitimate question. Israeli WAS created as a Jewish State, that is a fact. It is also true that Arabs that left Israel, now the Palestinians left on their own terms, Israel protected the Arabs that stayed.

Okay...let's try to translate the stupidity of this section into an image you could grasp.
You are living your life in the Usa.
all is good.
now suddenly the chinese come and dump a shitload of mongolians on your shores.
you think to yourself :wtf?
explanation: we had a war here and the thai people were murdering mongolians, they are entitled to their own nation which should keep them safe.
ethnically they are the same people as native americans and in their stories they point out northern america as their ancestrial homeland.

you:WTF???

mongolians: we declare the mongolion state, please leave your towns, your cemetaries and your churches/temples/mosques.
we are bulding our houses there.
you get to stay in our state if you please as long as you dont mind doing the dirty work after we are done culturally raping you and shooting some of your familymembers.


that is what happened.

Zendetta
13th July 09, 05:32 PM
Wouldn't matter if he was fucking the foreskins of 100 dead Jewish children when he said it

Don't give him any ideas!!!


his critique is still valid. Saying that it's irrelevant because he's biased is a load of shit and you know it.

This. "Anti-semite" is one of the easiest ad hominem attacks one can make.

The WeatherMan may be a Pedophile, or worse. But that really has no bearing on whether or not it will rain tomorrow.


There are Arabs (who are also Muslim I believe) and I believe even Christians in the Israeli Parliament, as well. So Israel can't be compared to Iran or anyone else in the area in terms of government and freedoms for the people. But that doesn't mean we should let it slide when it drops the ball just because it's above average.

Certainly, it is better to be an Arab in Israel than a Jew in Iran (or practically any other mid-east country).

Lebell
13th July 09, 05:37 PM
i would like to inform you that i can wear the foreskin of a 100 jewish boys and that those boys are still alive.

circumcision is not a deadly procedure, i can vouch for it as ive had it myself.(HINT)

why do you wish for a 100 dead jewish kids?
are you...an antisemetic?


ARE YOU???

BECAUSE IF YOU ARE IM TOTALLY COMING FOR YOU.
DONT EVER SHOW UP AT A TD I WILL BE WAITING, I'LL JAM MY MENORAH RIGHT UP UR ASS!!!


OH MAI JAHWEH IM SO ANGRY RIGHT NOW I CANT THINK!!!!

WarPhalange
14th July 09, 01:57 AM
i would like to inform you that i can wear the foreskin of a 100 jewish boys and that those boys are still alive.

I never said they'd die from the circumcision. But having dead babies implies mothers crying over them. Which makes you fondling their childrens' favorite foreskins all the more heartbreaking.

Cullion
14th July 09, 02:31 AM
There are Arabs (who are also Muslim I believe) and I believe even Christians in the Israeli Parliament, as well.

Israel's new government sees these people as a 5th column and is taking steps to politically disenfranchise them.



So Israel can't be compared to Iran or anyone else in the area in terms of government and freedoms for the people.

There are Jews living in Iran who recently refused money from the Israeli government to move to Israel. They were happy in Iran. Doing a regional comparison like that puts Israel as it is today about on a par with South Africa during apartheid when compared to the 3rd world dictatorships around it.

MaverickZ
14th July 09, 08:29 AM
Zendetta, Israel was established as a place for Jews to live after hundreds of years of persecution all over the world. I believe Israel is "for" anyone who is willing to live there peacefully with the people and with the idea of why Israel was established.

Lebell
14th July 09, 08:50 AM
Mav,

translated to a microscale it would be like you get kicked out of your house because a guy is going to live there, you cant say anything about it cos he's been picked on and bullied all his life.

can't you see that leads to trouble?

Zendetta
14th July 09, 10:34 AM
Zendetta, Israel was established as a place for Jews to live after hundreds of years of persecution all over the world.

I understand that, but the founding of Modern Israel cannot be meaningfully separated from British Imperialism, imo. LeBell has a point in his last post: Jewish Israelis were enfranchised by way of disenfranchising the people who were living on that land prior.

Its fair to say that a lot of the current mid-east mess is fallout from that. And since the USA foots the bill, and since the Israel Lobby is a major political force in this country, we are of course neck deep in all of this ourselves.


I believe Israel is "for" anyone who is willing to live there peacefully with the people and with the idea of why Israel was established.

There are definitely some strong, vibrant democratic and humanistic traditions in Israel, but I come back around to Cullion's point: can these traditions survive in the face of changing demographics?

EDIT: lol, I'm getting a Date Jewish Singles banner on this thread! Teh Joo is passed down thru mom, right? So my half-Goy kids could still be "Chosen", right?

SWEET!

MaverickZ
14th July 09, 10:42 AM
I understand that, but the founding of Modern Israel cannot be meaningfully separated from British Imperialism, imo. LeBell has a point in his last post: Jewish Israelis were enfranchised by way of disenfranchising the people who were living on that land prior.

Its fair to say that a lot of the current mid-east mess is fallout from that. And since the USA foots the bill, and since the Israel Lobby is a major political force in this country, we are of course neck deep in all of this ourselves.
I have no desire to discuss the "who was there first" question as that horse has already been ground up into glue and been used to make macaroni paintings at the local JCC. No offense intended, it's just a huge waste of everyone's time.


There are definitely some strong, vibrant democratic and humanistic traditions in Israel, but I come back around to Cullion's point: can these traditions survive in the face of changing demographics?
Are you saying the traditions of the "changing demographics" are not compatible with peaceful coexistence?

WarPhalange
14th July 09, 10:42 AM
Zendetta, Israel was established as a place for Jews to live after hundreds of years of persecution all over the world. I believe Israel is "for" anyone who is willing to live there peacefully with the people and with the idea of why Israel was established.

Because the Jews are the only people who have ever been persecuted and without a place to call their own. Ever.

The fact that they ended up kicking other people out and controlling the "holy land" of three major groups of people is another bonehead move. That should be UN territory if anything, because I don't see fighting stopping any time soon unless that becomes neutral territory. Sort of like how the immortals in Highlander couldn't fight in a church. Though, they aren't to blame for that. They were given the land by the British, so they are to blame for that move.

Virus
14th July 09, 10:50 AM
They were offered part of Brazil. They should have taken that.

Zendetta
14th July 09, 11:06 AM
I have no desire to discuss the "who was there first" question as that horse has already been ground up into glue and been used to make macaroni paintings at the local JCC. No offense intended, it's just a huge waste of everyone's time.

Sorry, Bro. No Dice.

A couple of pages ago you were lamenting the lack of nuanced discussion, so lets pick over Trigger's remains a bit.

More to the point, you DO see how this constitutes a valid critique of Modern Israel's legitimacy (whether you agree or not), don't you? AND how it is intimately wrapped up in WHY that "peaceful coexistence" is so hard to achieve?

Let me put it this way: plenty of racist whites have tried to position the good ol' USA as a "white homeland" or somesuch horseshit. The fact that it was taken from the Natives takes some of the starch out of that position.


Are you saying the traditions of the "changing demographics" are not compatible with peaceful coexistence?

Fuck no, dem Ayrabs are krazee! Seriously though, ask Cullion about this.

MaverickZ
14th July 09, 11:13 AM
Sorry, Bro. No Dice.

A couple of pages ago you were lamenting the lack of nuanced discussion, so lets pick over Trigger's remains a bit.

More to the point, you DO see how this constitutes a valid critique of Modern Israel's legitimacy (whether you agree or not), don't you? AND how it is intimately wrapped up in WHY that "peaceful coexistence" is so hard to achieve?

Let me put it this way: plenty of racist whites have tried to position the good ol' USA as a "white homeland" or somesuch horseshit. The fact that it was taken from the Natives takes some of the starch out of that position.
Well, maybe we should find the modern descendants of the Canaanite and give the land to them? Are you operating under the assumption that there existed an Arab or even a mixed Palestinian country before the founding of modern day Israel?

Ajamil
14th July 09, 11:56 AM
I don't see the problem really with taking other people's land to set up your own nation. I'm even being a bit serious here. The US and Canada did it, and how how nicely they turned out. Just make sure Israel remembers the noble people that they wiped out, and give them some casinos or the oil fields or something.

I mean, who knows a nation in existence today that wasn't carved out of someone else's land? Technically we could try to find some A.C. Doyle style missing links and give all the land back to them, but it might be easier to realize that unless we want a single world regime and culture, there will always be land wars.

Zendetta
14th July 09, 01:06 PM
Well, maybe we should find the modern descendants of the Canaanite and give the land to them?

BWAHAHAHA! I figured the conversation would veer that direction - I just thought it would be me saying it! Well done.

No, and I don't think that white folks should be evicted from the US either. Put another way: history ain't fair.


Are you operating under the assumption that there existed an Arab or even a mixed Palestinian country before the founding of modern day Israel?

lol, dude, no I'm not operating under rank ignorance, thanks for the assumption.

I am under the impression that the people living on the contested land had hopes, dreams, lives, etc - and that the squelching of those dreams makes that whole "peaceful coexistence" thing a bit of a pipe dream.

Don't get me wrong - I don't consider myself Anti-Israel. In many ways I'm Pro-Israel*, but the historical realities present some very sticky problems that have major ramifications for the West.

* On Israelis:
For whatever reason, EVERY SINGLE ISRAELI that I have personally met have been a dynamically awesome person: highly intelligent, funny, compassionate - and very good looking! Something in the water? Luck of the draw? Some truth to those "Chosen" rumors? I know there are some serious Schmucks around, but my luck has been great.

MaverickZ
14th July 09, 01:26 PM
lol, dude, no I'm not operating under rank ignorance, thanks for the assumption.
I didn't assume that. I asked it as a sincere question. But in my engineering mind it's important that we are working under the same set of assumptions. Or else the derived conclusions will be drastically different.


I am under the impression that the people living on the contested land had hopes, dreams, lives, etc - and that the squelching of those dreams makes that whole "peaceful coexistence" thing a bit of a pipe dream.
I'm not sure who you mean is squelching those dreams. That area has been under rule of one empire or another since people starting writing history down. Israeli, Roman, Ottoman, UN. The people living there have not had autonomous rule for a very long time. I'm not convinced that their dreams are being squelched by Israel. Here I'm assuming you are talking about the non-Hamas Palestinians. I believe their Hamas caretakers have done more harm to their people than Israel could.


Don't get me wrong - I don't consider myself Anti-Israel. In many ways I'm Pro-Israel*, but the historical realities present some very sticky problems that have major ramifications for the West.
I don't hold you as anti-Israel. I actually find the idea of there having to be an anti-Israel and a pro-Israel side counter productive. It quickly becomes us vs them and the whole discussion breaks down.

Zendetta
14th July 09, 01:35 PM
Alright, here's the rub: Israel's current legititmacy as a Jewish Homeland rests in part on it maintaining its status as, or at least maintaining the appearance of, a multi-ethnic democracy, because Police States and Ethnic Enclaves are not palateable to Americans and Brits, and without our filthy Yankee money Israel is screwed.

BUT changing democraphics seem to indicate that Arab Muslems will eventually be able to assert political supremacy through democratic avenues - and could conceivably vote in various aspect of Shari'a, etc etc.

It seems pretty obvious that political players in Israel (and the US too) see this inevitability and are determined to pre-empt it - Arab political parites are already being marginalized.

The upshot of all this is that it would seem the Israel's future is either as a multi-ethnic democracy or as an ethnic/religious enclave for Jews. These things seem to be at loggerheads and one will have to go.

Both of those options seem scary to me:
a democratic, Arab-dominated state might well run the Jews out, and the whole damn cycle - displacement, diaspora, oppression - starts over again. Seems unlikely until we remember that Israel crumbles without US support.

or

a democratic, Jewish-dominated state that offers a great quality of life to Jews but oppresses Arabs/Muslems - many say that this is in fact the current reality.

The Gordion Knot that I can't untie is how to bring an area awash with ethnocentrism and backwards religion into the modern world.

Cullion
14th July 09, 02:14 PM
Are you operating under the assumption that there existed an Arab or even a mixed Palestinian country before the founding of modern day Israel?

What's your definition of a 'country' ?

There are some people who's ancestors lived there who've now been kicked off their property, we know that much.

You can't be suggesting that the place was just.. empty, prior to the founding of Israel. Some of those people became Israeli citizens, and some sold their land, but not all of them.

MaverickZ
14th July 09, 02:29 PM
What's your definition of a 'country' ?
Self rule.


You can't be suggesting that the place was just.. empty, prior to the founding of Israel. Some of those people became Israeli citizens, and some sold their land, but not all of them.
I'm not sure where you read that in my posts.

MaverickZ
14th July 09, 02:34 PM
The Gordion Knot that I can't untie is how to bring an area awash with ethnocentrism and backwards religion into the modern world.
Gong sau. Wall the entire area off and let them get it on.

I'm afraid I don't have an answer to your Gordion Knot. People much smarter and more powerful than anyone else on this forum have tried to solve this problem for many years and have yet to find a solution. I have my opinion on why it hasn't workedout, but I don't think it would be helpful to the discussion.

Zendetta
14th July 09, 02:38 PM
Gong sau. Wall the entire area off and let them get it on.

lol, that kind of thing does seem to please the Savage Gods of the Desert!


I'm afraid I don't have an answer to your Gordion Knot.

I don't expect you to, but I do appreciate the discussion.


I have my opinion on why it hasn't workedout, but I don't think it would be helpful to the discussion.

Oh come now! This is no place to be coy, you little tease! Remember, this is a LeBell Thread, so it can't sink much lower...

MaverickZ
14th July 09, 02:51 PM
Oh come now! This is no place to be coy, you little tease! Remember, this is a LeBell Thread, so it can't sink much lower...
Well, I'll admit that I prefer the Jewish enclave solution more than the multi-ethnic democracy solution. Infiltration of, or at least influence on, an Arab dominated Israeli government by countries like Iran and Syria seems likely. Not a very happy prospect for the Jewish tribe. Being the descendant of not one but two ethnicities I have a soft spot for the Jews in Israel, as they sort of have nowhere else to go at this point. That's a personal bias. I'm a fan of the two state solution, with Israel as a Jewish enclave that is friendly economically and socially with the Muslims living there. With a similar but opposite arrangement in a new country for the Palestinians.

Zendetta
14th July 09, 02:54 PM
That's a personal bias.

I can dig it.

Why do you think prior attempts have failed?

MaverickZ
14th July 09, 02:59 PM
I can dig it.

Why do you think prior attempts have failed?
Palestinian leadership that a) does not accept Israel's right to exist and b) wants a mile if you give them an inch. Unfortunately, I'm not as read up on the Israeli settler issue, geographical and social, as I should be. But I'm fairly sure some blame rests with them as well. But there's an uneven split in my mind between the two.

Zendetta
14th July 09, 03:06 PM
Yeah, that sucks. Some real fucking crooks.

Having dudes like Benjamin Netanyahu and Ariel Sharon - Israel's answer to Dick Cheney* - in charge on the other side ain't helping either, imo.

* well, sort of. Despite Sharon being a fucking reptile, he does have some authentic "war hero" chops (or war criminal, depending on who you ask), whereas Dick is a blatant chicken hawk.

MaverickZ
14th July 09, 03:29 PM
Yeah, that sucks. Some real fucking crooks.

Having dudes like Benjamin Netanyahu and Ariel Sharon - Israel's answer to Dick Cheney* - in charge on the other side ain't helping either, imo.

* well, sort of. Despite Sharon being a fucking reptile, he does have some authentic "war hero" chops (or war criminal, depending on who you ask), whereas Dick is a blatant chicken hawk.
My biggest problem with Israel's leadership is their inability to keep Israel's nose clean. There's a lot, in my mind, that I think Israel has the right to do in response to events. But then they will let some settlers go settle somewhere they shouldn't, and then I think "What are you thinking?!" They can't go to the court of world opinion and say "Look at what Hamas is doing." when they're doing things they shouldn't do.

On the other hand, a large portion of the world already views Israel as a violent occupying force that is oppressing innocent victims, which is certainly not the case. So their leadership figures they might as well act like it then.

Zendetta
14th July 09, 04:11 PM
My biggest problem with Israel's leadership is their inability to keep Israel's nose clean.

Must.Not.Make.JewishBigNoseJoke.Must.Not.


There's a lot, in my mind, that I think Israel has the right to do in response to events. But then they will let some settlers go settle somewhere they shouldn't, and then I think "What are you thinking?!"

I know, right? *facepalm*


On the other hand, a large portion of the world already views Israel as a violent occupying force that is oppressing innocent victims, which is certainly not the case. So their leadership figures they might as well act like it then.

Its a lot like their official policy is "OH YEAH?!??! Well fuck you guys!"

If I can ask you an even dicier question: in your opinion, as a Jewish Man, WHY do you think the Jews have faced so much prejudice in so many places?

MaverickZ
14th July 09, 04:14 PM
If I can ask you an even dicier question: in your opinion, as a Jewish Man, WHY do you think the Jews have faced so much prejudice in so many places?
Half Jewish, though I'm pretty sure my response would be no different if I were full or none Jewish. Because throughout the diaspora they were always foreigners or outsiders wherever they settled. They also maintained traditions of their own and their own ethnic character while still assimilating to some but not full extent (mostly because they weren't allowed to).

Cullion
14th July 09, 05:01 PM
Self rule.

That's a circular proposition, because without defining 'country' you can't define a national 'self'.



I'm not sure where you read that in my posts.

Was it ok, or not ok for Israeli settlers to use violence to drive previous inhabitants off their land, and what proportion of the land within Israel's current borders do you believe fits this description?

Lebell
15th July 09, 05:45 AM
Half Jewish, though I'm pretty sure my response would be no different if I were full or none Jewish.

uhuh.
suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuure.

why is it so hard for jews to look at it objectively.

the jews stole the land and chased off or killed the inhabitants, thats what happened, period.

ever since they are trying to come up with all kinds of complicated crap to justify that.

it's like a guy raping women who yells:' dont you dare judge me, i was raped when i was 14!!!'

we are talking about a government who wants to build a center of tolerance (towards jews ofcourse) on a cemetary.
people's parents grandparents etc are burried there.

if you cant see how that's wrong you're a zionist pig.

taijiamn
15th July 09, 05:56 AM
Was it ok, or not ok for Israeli settlers to use violence to drive previous inhabitants off their land...?

Isn't that the way it's usually done? Spoils go to the conquerer and all that? Although, the jews didn't actually conquer anything, they were sort of given it.

Lebell
15th July 09, 06:06 AM
no spoils should not go to the victor, that is uncivilised conan crap.
if that would be true the nazis could have exterminated the jews since they were too weak to defend themselves.

the jews of all people should have understood how important it is too make an effort to live in harmony.

thats also one of the reasons they always got persecuted, they stuck to themselves, so they were sort off mysterious and nasty people started rumors about them.

last sunday i met up with a friend in a pub, next to us at the bar sat 2 israeli dudes (they spoke hebrew) so my friend asked me how the arabic is going.

they heared that and were sizing me up and staring at me.
i joked: relax im not some convert, im not joining the hezbollah or something!
they just sorta hissed at me.
that was in my own country.


nasty people.

taijiamn
15th July 09, 06:24 AM
So, if you declare war on someone, and kill them, somebody else gets their stuff? Well shit, what's the point of going to war then?

Lebell
15th July 09, 06:40 AM
So, if you declare war on someone, and kill them, somebody else gets their stuff? Well shit, what's the point of going to war then?

exactly, war is stupid and very nasty bussiness.

war is not what happened in israel though.
the british were in charge and the UN designated israel to the jews.
it was very one sided bussiness.

taijiamn
15th July 09, 06:45 AM
That was sort of my point. If there had been a large jewish, or mostly jewish army that had taken that specific area in war, there probably wouldn't be as many questions about the legitimacy of Isreal.

Ajamil
15th July 09, 09:09 AM
That was sort of my point. If there had been a large jewish, or mostly jewish army that had taken that specific area in war, there probably wouldn't be as many questions about the legitimacy of Isreal.
It's horrible that this is probably true. If only Israel killed people for the land there wouldn't be a fight for it right now.

taijiamn
15th July 09, 10:22 AM
It's horrible that this is probably true. If only Israel killed people for the land there wouldn't be a fight for it right now.

There'd probably still be a fight, But I bet it'd be smaller and most of the rest of the world wouldn't care as much.

Cullion
15th July 09, 01:29 PM
Umm, guys. That's absurd.

Cullion
15th July 09, 01:32 PM
Isn't that the way it's usually done? Spoils go to the conquerer and all that? Although, the jews didn't actually conquer anything, they were sort of given it.

Umm, except where the land was taken by conquest. Nobody here (except Lebell when trolling) would suggest that the South African Apartheid government would've been OK, if only they had just killed the black population.

It's an utterly absurd position.

Ajamil
15th July 09, 03:10 PM
None here, sure. I've been thinking on this, though, and I'm just glad I have no responsibility over the proceedings. I mean, the best idea I see so far is yearly death mecha matches to see who rules. If fighting is inevitable, better to have it slowly released than an all-out war.

I mean, damn. I rally really hope my view of it is overblown from media rather than underwhelmed from ignorance.

Lebell
16th July 09, 04:04 AM
god i cant wait to move to israel, its going to be so much fun.
awesome place to be being a little instigator such as me.

Virus
17th July 09, 05:21 AM
If only Israel killed people for the land there wouldn't be a fight for it right now.

This makes no sense. Why would the Palestinians be cool with being killed and driven off their land?

Lebell
17th July 09, 05:27 AM
with the above logic you could legalise rape:

'you wrestle someone and you win so in order you can rape them.
its okay it was a fullout fight at least.
but gangbanging? no thats just plain wrong.'


BOTH ARE WRONG.

socratic
17th July 09, 06:02 AM
If I can ask you an even dicier question: in your opinion, as a Jewish Man, WHY do you think the Jews have faced so much prejudice in so many places?

This is actually a classic dilemma that has iterated in many forms in many communities amongst many ethnicities. To my mind really, aside from the religious aspect [retards thinking 'the jews killed jesus!' which is utter shit] it boils down to this: Landed communities will always hate migrant communities. Always. The Hmong, the Romani, the Shan, the Mon, the Karen, the Irish Travellers, the Kurds... Any nation without a state is a nation which is despised.

Lebell, you do realise there were Jews living in the Holy Land continuously since the fall of Judea? It's not like it was a Jew-free-zone until the Mandate ended. And immigration of Jews into the area had been on going for prior to the formation of the state, too, especially during and immediately after WW2 but prior to Israel being formed.


This makes no sense. Why would the Palestinians be cool with being killed and driven off their land?

That's not the point. The point is if you take something by war then by and large it's considered legitimately owned. If it's given to you by a colonial power than your ownership is considered debatable by the international community. Thus if the Israelis had fought a war and seized the territory [funnily enough, they certainly did for some of it] rather than have it given to them by the British then people wouldn't drag their feet about it, and the people who did would be dead anyway.

socratic
17th July 09, 06:04 AM
with the above logic you could legalise rape:

'you wrestle someone and you win so in order you can rape them.
its okay it was a fullout fight at least.
but gangbanging? no thats just plain wrong.'


BOTH ARE WRONG.
The metaphor would actually be: "If I came in, shot anyone who opposed me in the head, and took all the women I wanted, then the international community wouldn't give a flying fuck as long as I had at least a stated reason. If my friend Britain gave me some women they gained through conflict, I'd be the asshole." It's not about morals, it's about international politics. If you have an army behind what you do no one can or will do shit.

Virus
17th July 09, 07:05 AM
The point is if you take something by war then by and large it's considered legitimately owned.

Considered by who?

EuropIan
17th July 09, 07:22 AM
Rule of force?

Ajamil
17th July 09, 08:18 AM
For my part, I meant that in the international community, war and commerce are the only real power - and commerce rarely affects situations such as these. It would come down to, "You're forcing your agenda through war? Stop that. If you don't, we will force our agenda through war."

Artful Dentures
17th July 09, 08:44 AM
thats also one of the reasons they always got persecuted, they stuck to themselves, so they were sort off mysterious and nasty people started rumors about them.




You realize that "sticking to themselves" wasn't a matter of choice in almost all cases in Europe. With strict laws regulating where Jews could live and dress and what jobs they could have.

Anyways the history of anti-semiticism in Europe goes back to the destruction of Israel by the Romans, the dispersion of the Jews into the Roman provinces, the rise of Christianity and the Jews refusal to convert.

Also as we have seen in history over and over again, tyranny and despotism needs scapegoats to redirect peoples attentions.

This was the case in lots of different times in Europe

Because Jews in many places WERE NOT ALLOWED to won land they couldn't be farmers.

Since they were a dispersed group over Europe closed off to many trades and social strat they had a good community network across Europe and went into banking and trade often at the request of the Crowns of Europe, who invited them to come.

The crowns of Europe would then barrow money from the Jews and at some point realize it was cheaper to kill or expell them often using the church as their tool to do so.

Ironically when this happened in many places the Europeans would have a health disaster because the other trade Jews were allowed to practice was as Doctors.

The Plague hit Spain hard after the great expulsion - go figure.

Anti-Semiticism in the Muslim world goes back to Mohammad who first tried to convert Jews who told him to take a hike.

Although in all fairness during medieval Europe time to the fall of the Ottoman empire Jews did better in the Muslim world than in Europe.

Shawarma
17th July 09, 08:49 AM
Disagree with you about Mohammed, Joe. The koran states several times that the Jews are not the enemy. In fact, antisemitism in Islam only REALLY took off after the whole Israel business.

Virus
17th July 09, 08:55 AM
retards thinking 'the jews killed jesus!' which is utter shit

I read Matthew and the Pharisees conspired to have Jesus taken out. It's a good things it's probably just fiction.

Shawarma
17th July 09, 09:11 AM
How is it utter shit that the Jews killed Jesus? From what I remember, it were the Jews who wanted Jesus killed instead of Barabbas. Pilate gave them the choice.

HappyOldGuy
17th July 09, 10:26 AM
How is it utter shit that the Jews killed Jesus? From what I remember, it were the Jews who wanted Jesus killed instead of Barabbas. Pilate gave them the choice.

It would be a big mistake to read that as literal history. Especially since the jews didn't crucify people.

Lebell
17th July 09, 10:30 AM
i think we should conclude this thread with: ' Jews, they're a funny lot...'

Artful Dentures
17th July 09, 10:33 AM
Disagree with you about Mohammed, Joe. The koran states several times that the Jews are not the enemy. In fact, antisemitism in Islam only REALLY took off after the whole Israel business.

I sort of agree but the Islamic Brotherhood out of Egypt started before the state of Israel as a fundamentalist movement and used passages from the Koran that can be viewed as Antisemitic to promote their extremist view

Much in the same way passages from the Bible have been used to promote antisemitism many times in history.

Also like I alluded to when the big power in the Islamic world was the Ottoman Empire Jews did very well under them.

There's always been an interesting theory that we have never discussed that the antisemitism directed at Israel wasn't because of Jews VS Muslims but West VS East and that it was the establishment of a western style state in the Mid East that the neighboring countries objected to.


One interesting thing I read that if Israel was established as a strict religious state that the neighbors wouldn't have really cared or been bothered.

Artful Dentures
17th July 09, 10:36 AM
How is it utter shit that the Jews killed Jesus? From what I remember, it were the Jews who wanted Jesus killed instead of Barabbas. Pilate gave them the choice.


I have always just countered the Jews Killed Jesus statement with, Jesus was a Jew, his Brother, mother father and followers were all Jews, everyone involved in the story besides the Romans were Jews.

so the Jews killed Jesus statement is like saying Lee Harvey Oswald Killed Kennedy and as an American therefore the Americans killed Kennedy

Zendetta
17th July 09, 11:48 AM
In fact, antisemitism in Islam only REALLY took off after the whole Israel business.

False. There was widespread violence against Jews in the mide-east before Israel was founded.

Lebell
17th July 09, 12:00 PM
oh rlly?
well the jews started, they invaded kanaan!!!

what about those poor kananites then?
nobody ever mentions them...

Zendetta
17th July 09, 12:32 PM
Maverick did mention the Canaanites.

Lebell
17th July 09, 12:43 PM
no he did not

Zendetta
17th July 09, 03:08 PM
Well, maybe we should find the modern descendants of the Canaanite and give the land to them?

uh huh.

Once again, the Jews have you beat.

Cullion
17th July 09, 03:22 PM
I have always just countered the Jews Killed Jesus statement with, Jesus was a Jew, his Brother, mother father and followers were all Jews, everyone involved in the story besides the Romans were Jews.

so the Jews killed Jesus statement is like saying Lee Harvey Oswald Killed Kennedy and as an American therefore the Americans killed Kennedy

The version I was taught at Catholic school was pretty much that.

i.e. everybody involved was Jewish and it was a group of Pharisees who wanted him dead because he challenged their authority.

I think a 2nd century Christian of Hebrew ancestry wouldn't see it in terms of 'Jews' and 'Christians', but 'Christians' and 'Pharisees', with all of them being part of Israel.

As I understand it the early Jewish followers of Christ ceased being considered Jewish in the way a modern Orthodox Jew would consider it because they followed a false messiah and deliberately abandoned several Jewish observances, such as the requirement to maintain a kosher diet, (which of course made it easier to absorb gentile converts).

I'm not clear at what historical point Christians stopped being circumcised, started saying prayers directed at Mary, and using robes and other imagery which were distinctly 'un-Jewish'.

Is there an equivalent of 'excommunication' in Orthodox Judaism? and if so was it applied to early hebrew Christians ? Or is it just the case that gentile converts to Christianity simply remained idolatorous gentiles in the view of Orthodox Jews ?

Zendetta
17th July 09, 03:33 PM
(which of course made it easier to absorb gentile converts)

Another result of the "evil jews killed Jeebus" angle is that it helped the early Christians prosyletize to Romans - 'cuz no one wants to join a religion where they are the villain.

Virus
17th July 09, 10:14 PM
I would like at this point to invoke the Argumentum ad Condell:

9Vaw658Bow8

Ajamil
18th July 09, 12:31 AM
Wow...my new plan is to have the entire Middle East unite against that Condell guy.

WarPhalange
18th July 09, 01:16 AM
What a coincidence. My new plan is to have every Condell guy I can find unite against the entire Middle East. Meet you half-way?

Virus
18th July 09, 01:23 AM
Wow...my new plan is to have the entire Middle East unite against that Condell guy.

Why?

WarPhalange
18th July 09, 01:59 AM
Because he supports the Jews and everybody knows that the ME doesn't include Israel, since Israel is in Europe.

Virus
18th July 09, 02:44 AM
I think it's because he said that scripture is insanity and Arjuna believes in scriptures.

socratic
18th July 09, 04:30 AM
How is it utter shit that the Jews killed Jesus? From what I remember, it were the Jews who wanted Jesus killed instead of Barabbas. Pilate gave them the choice.

According to the story it was the Jewish clergy wanted Jesus gone, Judas helped the Romans captured him, the people were given the choice between a freedom fighter bandit and a crazy-as-fuck dude called Jesus to release, and they jose Barabbas. The Romans then killed Jesus.


oh rlly?
well the jews started, they invaded kanaan!!!

what about those poor kananites then?
nobody ever mentions them...

The Jews were in Canaan first, the Canaanites invaded when Joseph and his crew were away and thus had it coming.

What that video doesn't cover is that Jerusalem and much of the territory held in Israel was part of Judea. Before Titus smashed it into the ground, there was totally a Jewish state right there. If you want to make a Zionist argument [drawing everyone who was dispersed from Home into the world] then Zion would indeed by pretty much smack bang where it is right now.

Cullion
18th July 09, 04:40 AM
The problem with that argument is that there's little or no evidence that the European Ashkenazi who run Israel are more closely descended from biblical hebrews than the palestianians who live there today. There's a peer-reviewed genetic study by an Israeli academic showing that modern palestinian arabs are mostly the descendents of 1st century AD jews who converted to Christianity and Islam. I'll try and dig it out.

It's somewhat like a white hindu convert like Arjuna who maybe has a tiny amount of Indian ancestry declaring India his promised land of the covenant and then kicking an indian muslim out of his home.

If the justification is based on 'our ancestors lived here 2000 years ago', then it's pretty weak to start with, but the ancestry claim itself is more tenuous than a lot of people realise.

socratic
18th July 09, 04:58 AM
The problem with that argument is that there's little or no evidence that the European Ashkenazi who run Israel are more closely descended from biblical hebrews than the palestianians who live there today. There's a peer-reviewed genetic study by an Israeli academic showing that modern palestinian arabs are mostly the descendents of 1st century AD jews who converted to Christianity and Islam. I'll try and dig it out.

It's somewhat like a white hindu convert like Arjuna who maybe has a tiny amount of Indian ancestry declaring India his promised land of the covenant and then kicking an indian muslim out of his home.

If the justification is based on 'our ancestors lived here 2000 years ago', then it's pretty weak to start with, but the ancestry claim itself is more tenuous than a lot of people realise.

It depends I suppose on whether you think you can convert to Judaism and thus become part of the Jewish nation [as in ethnicity], which in-so-far as it is defined as 'nation' is perfectly possible. Thus you'd be able to split hairs and say "even if you are genetically Judean we are ethnically Judean and spiritually Judean therefore we are the 'true successor'." That said you could pull arguments out of your ass for ever and ever...

Please do find that study, that sounds really interesting.

socratic
18th July 09, 05:02 AM
The thing about Jesus' death that stands out me a lot more now that I've studied history is that the Pharisees would probably have no business being in the same room as a Roman, and some conspiracy by them to kill Jesus via the Romans would probably end with them trying to kill the Romans. Besides, the real religious power lay with the Sadducees, who constituted the Sanhedrin. The Pharisees were a powerless yet popular grassroots movement. Hell, even the Sadducees, who often played ball and thus held their power following the takeover by the Romans, had some pretty anti-Roman dudes in their midst. A pretty famous rebel/bandit was the son of the High Priest, Sadducee numero uno. That any member of the Judean community would conspire with the Romans to end someone as nonthreatening as Jesus just sounds patently rediculous.

Cullion
18th July 09, 07:53 AM
It's not really a question of what really happened, because we're discussing a book that features talking clouds and people coming back from the dead.

What it's a question of what it says in the New Testament, and I'm hard pressed to find somebody who's actually read the New Testament who doesn't think the Pharisees were the ones behind it. The text is fairly plain on the matter.

Anybody who says 'the Bible blames the Romans!' is basically engaging in frenetic sophistry in an attempt to defuse Christian anti-semitism, but it's not really very effective because

a) It's a blatant lie to anybody who actually reads the New Testament and

b) It's unneccessary because somebody who actually reads the NT can also see that it's referring to infighting within Judaism and pretty much all of the key characters whether portrayed as good or bad are Jewish. The Romans portrayed during accounts of Jesus' life are largely silent extras in military uniforms.

socratic
18th July 09, 08:01 AM
It's not really a question of what really happened, because we're discussing a book that features talking clouds and people coming back from the dead.

What it's a question of what it says in the New Testament, and I'm hard pressed to find somebody who's actually read the New Testament who doesn't think the Pharisees were the ones behind it. The text is fairly plain on the matter.

Anybody who says 'the Bible blames the Romans!' is basically engaging in frenetic sophistry in an attempt to defuse Christian anti-semitism, but it's not really very effective because

a) It's a blatant lie to anybody who actually reads the New Testament and

b) It's unneccessary because somebody who actually reads the NT can also see that it's referring to infighting within Judaism and pretty much all of the key characters whether portrayed as good or bad are Jewish. The Romans portrayed during accounts of Jesus' life are largely silent extras in military uniforms.

In a literal sense however it would be safe to say the Romans did it since it was Roman soldiery who tortured and crucified Christ, but it'd also be fair to say that it was plotted at least within the story by the Pharisees. I raised the historiocracy point because the 'Jews killed Jesus!' thing is one which is often passed off as a historical reason for Christian antisemetism. From a historical standpoint Christ is a big question mark anyway, but t3h j00z probably didn't do it. Either way Judaism has recieved no limit of rough treatment in Christian lands...

Did you know that many-a-Jew became fortune tellers and soothsayers during the Roman-era of the diaspora? They did back then what Gypsies are known for today. The Romans felt a similar way about them [as you well know, the only people they hated more than Judeans were Carthaginians and Christians...] as many do the Roma.

Cullion
18th July 09, 08:22 AM
In a literal sense however it would be safe to say the Romans did it since it was Roman soldiery who tortured and crucified Christ, but it'd also be fair to say that it was plotted at least within the story by the Pharisees.

Well that story is the foundation of what Christians believe.



I raised the historiocracy point because the 'Jews killed Jesus!' thing is one which is often passed off as a historical reason for Christian antisemetism.

Personally I think it's just a kind of coat-peg which people can hang a deeper seated hostility to other tribal groupings on. Early Jews in Europe often looked different ethnically. To varying degrees, people have an instinctual distrust of identifiable 'outsiders', then they often try to find some more rational sounding grievance to hang this on. It's how people manage the cognitive dissonance when reconciling a primitive tribal instinct, they just make elaborate shit up.

I'd surprised if somebody from the ancient eastern mediterranean didn't have a tough time making a life amongst northern european villagers well before they converted to Christianity, it's just that the reasons given would've been different.
'Why won't Avraham put flowers around the holy well with the rest of us, what makes him so special?', 'how come he doesn't join in when we share the roast boar afterwards? how ungreatful!' etc..



From a historical standpoint Christ is a big question mark anyway, but t3h j00z probably didn't do it.

Well, in the narrative that Christians believe, they did, but they did it to other Jews. There is no great conflict between Jews and Gentiles in the New Testamament, it's the story of a struggle between different Jewish factions.



Did you know that many-a-Jew became fortune tellers and soothsayers during the Roman-era of the diaspora? They did back then what Gypsies are known for today. The Romans felt a similar way about them [as you well know, the only people they hated more than Judeans were Carthaginians and Christians...] as many do the Roma.

Several Roman writers saw the Jews as more dangerous than the Roma are portrayed today. More in line with the anti-semitic 'secret power behind the throne' theories that abound today, rather than simply looking down upon them as petty criminals, which is the thrust of anti-gypsy racism in modern Europe.

Lebell
18th July 09, 08:22 AM
Because he supports the Jews and everybody knows that the ME doesn't include Israel, since Israel is in Europe.

yeah they can enter the eurovision songfestival.
they must be in europe.

Lebell
18th July 09, 08:24 AM
you know what the thing is with stereotypes...there's usually a core of truth to them.

thats the uncomfortable knowledge everyone has but won't speak out loud.
gypsies ARE often thieving, lying bastards, jews tend to be arrogant and on the money etc etc

Ajamil
18th July 09, 10:01 AM
It's somewhat like a white hindu convert like Arjuna who maybe has a tiny amount of Indian ancestry declaring India his promised land of the covenant and then kicking an indian muslim out of his home.

The writers of the Vedas did call themselves Aryans...


I think it's because he said that scripture is insanity and Arjuna believes in scriptures.

It's not the argument, it's the attitude. Uniting against a common enemy is very easy when that enemy mistakes nastiness for wit.

Artful Dentures
18th July 09, 10:51 AM
you know what the thing is with stereotypes...there's usually a core of truth to them.

thats the uncomfortable knowledge everyone has but won't speak out loud.
gypsies ARE often thieving, lying bastards, jews tend to be arrogant and on the money etc etc


I am leaving for BJJ I'll insult you and the Dutch when I come back

HappyOldGuy
18th July 09, 11:30 AM
Well, in the narrative that Christians believe, they did, but they did it to other Jews. There is no great conflict between Jews and Gentiles in the New Testamament, it's the story of a struggle between different Jewish factions.



That really varies between gospels. And is arguably an artifact of the situation of the gospel writers as jewish christians fighting with other jewish factions in the diaspora communities outside of judea. Especially the conflict with the pharisees.

AAAhmed46
18th July 09, 11:34 AM
what makes me antisemetic?



Okay...let's try to translate the stupidity of this section into an image you could grasp.
You are living your life in the Usa.
all is good.
now suddenly the chinese come and dump a shitload of mongolians on your shores.
you think to yourself :wtf?
explanation: we had a war here and the thai people were murdering mongolians, they are entitled to their own nation which should keep them safe.
ethnically they are the same people as native americans and in their stories they point out northern america as their ancestrial homeland.

you:WTF???

mongolians: we declare the mongolion state, please leave your towns, your cemetaries and your churches/temples/mosques.
we are bulding our houses there.
you get to stay in our state if you please as long as you dont mind doing the dirty work after we are done culturally raping you and shooting some of your familymembers.


that is what happened.

The chinese only had temples!!

AAAhmed46
18th July 09, 12:03 PM
Yeah, that sucks. Some real fucking crooks.

Having dudes like Benjamin Netanyahu and Ariel Sharon - Israel's answer to Dick Cheney* - in charge on the other side ain't helping either, imo.

* well, sort of. Despite Sharon being a fucking reptile, he does have some authentic "war hero" chops (or war criminal, depending on who you ask), whereas Dick is a blatant chicken hawk.

Arabs respect Sharon, not because he's a keen person but because he was a badass general.

AAAhmed46
18th July 09, 12:04 PM
Half Jewish, though I'm pretty sure my response would be no different if I were full or none Jewish. Because throughout the diaspora they were always foreigners or outsiders wherever they settled. They also maintained traditions of their own and their own ethnic character while still assimilating to some but not full extent (mostly because they weren't allowed to).

Sounds like the jews were hated for the same reason those baby eaters settling in europe are right now!

Lebell
18th July 09, 12:05 PM
The chinese only had temples!!

DUDE!

don't make me punch you and dont get me started about the Chinese.
ive calculated some figures and the chance that the antichrist will be born as a chinese man is 89%.

AAAhmed46
18th July 09, 12:07 PM
no spoils should not go to the victor, that is uncivilised conan crap.
if that would be true the nazis could have exterminated the jews since they were too weak to defend themselves.

the jews of all people should have understood how important it is too make an effort to live in harmony.

thats also one of the reasons they always got persecuted, they stuck to themselves, so they were sort off mysterious and nasty people started rumors about them.

last sunday i met up with a friend in a pub, next to us at the bar sat 2 israeli dudes (they spoke hebrew) so my friend asked me how the arabic is going.

they heared that and were sizing me up and staring at me.
i joked: relax im not some convert, im not joining the hezbollah or something!
they just sorta hissed at me.
that was in my own country.


nasty people.

My parents went to an interfaith thingy, and they came in good faith. It was in a synagogue, my mom wears a hijab, and she got the DIRTIEST looks evar!!!!

And this was an INTERFAITH meeting.

Lebell
18th July 09, 12:14 PM
My parents went to an interfaith thingy, and they came in good faith. It was in a synagogue, my mom wears a hijab, and she got the DIRTIEST looks evar!!!!

And this was an INTERFAITH meeting.

Yes, those are the worst, ive attended crap like that for lolzers.
in Lolland you sometimes hear people call scarfed women names.
I'm the first one to laugh at islamic views and customs in a general way, but you'll never catch me insulting or threathening an innocent person.

eventhough i disagree, its still that persons religion and those of their ancestors.

those dirty looks during an interfaith meeting is just really really sad.
who gave her the looks?

fundi xtians?jews?

no i bet it were those fucking buddhists.
they're the worst.
always sitting on the fence.

Cullion
18th July 09, 12:19 PM
That really varies between gospels. And is arguably an artifact of the situation of the gospel writers as jewish christians fighting with other jewish factions in the diaspora communities outside of judea. Especially the conflict with the pharisees.

I think you're trying to bring historical analysis into this in a way which believing Christians don't. The New Testament, if read simply, says that some politically powerful Jews had a rebellious Jewish sect headed by a guy who claimed to be their prophecied messiah (but one with a message they didn't want to hear) killed by the Roman occupiers.

AAAhmed46
18th July 09, 12:23 PM
DUDE!

don't make me punch you and dont get me started about the Chinese.
ive calculated some figures and the chance that the antichrist will be born as a chinese man is 89%.

San shou will be the tool of the anti-christ!

AAAhmed46
18th July 09, 12:27 PM
Anti-Semiticism in the Muslim world goes back to Mohammad who first tried to convert Jews who told him to take a hike.
I sort of agree but the Islamic Brotherhood out of Egypt started before the state of Israel as a fundamentalist movement and used passages from the Koran that can be viewed as Antisemitic to promote their extremist view

Much in the same way passages from the Bible have been used to promote antisemitism many times in history.

Also like I alluded to when the big power in the Islamic world was the Ottoman Empire Jews did very well under them.

There's always been an interesting theory that we have never discussed that the antisemitism directed at Israel wasn't because of Jews VS Muslims but West VS East and that it was the establishment of a western style state in the Mid East that the neighboring countries objected to.


One interesting thing I read that if Israel was established as a strict religious state that the neighbors wouldn't have really cared or been bothered.
Add to Goju - Joe's


They did pretty good in spain as well.
Actually it's really only been around significantly since isreal's creation. It. like any other form of racism existed consistently since the dawn of humanity. I know the history of mohammed and the qureish and the jews, and some of his close companions were jewish, jews were still considered people of the book long after mohammeds death.

Hell anti-semetism in the arab world pre-dates islam, though was not, and despite all facts still is not as wide spread as it was before, though it is growing.

Infact, even today, most arabs don't give two shits about jews. Oh they'll talk about isreal, and often use the term 'jews' when describing zionism. But actually talking about judaism and jews as a race of people? most don't give a shit. But unfortuantly, that is changing, they are growing more bigotted then before.

Versus of the quran used by the brotherhood are out of context, in context it is often describing a specific group of jews and christians and not the totality, for instance, the quran scolds the jews that told moses and his group of followers(who were jewish) to fuck off. When i read that i thought nothing of it, until i saw it posted on anti-islamic sites crying anti-semitism.

Cullion
18th July 09, 12:28 PM
I am leaving for BJJ I'll insult you and the Dutch when I come back

Stuff like this just doesn't upset most europeans. Lebell's probably more worried about how soon his country will institute Sharia law because the indigenous dutch are outnumbered.

AAAhmed46
18th July 09, 12:28 PM
Yes, those are the worst, ive attended crap like that for lolzers.
in Lolland you sometimes hear people call scarfed women names.
I'm the first one to laugh at islamic views and customs in a general way, but you'll never catch me insulting or threathening an innocent person.

eventhough i disagree, its still that persons religion and those of their ancestors.

those dirty looks during an interfaith meeting is just really really sad.
who gave her the looks?

fundi xtians?jews?

no i bet it were those fucking buddhists.
they're the worst.
always sitting on the fence.

My mom though it was the joos since it was a synagogue, but could have been anyone.

Artful Dentures
18th July 09, 02:50 PM
My parents went to an interfaith thingy, and they came in good faith. It was in a synagogue, my mom wears a hijab, and she got the DIRTIEST looks evar!!!!

And this was an INTERFAITH meeting.


That's an interesting comment, I have had arguments with my wife about the Hijab she hates it, NOT as a religious thing but as a feminist thing.

A reform synagogue would be full of Femenazi (irony) so I wonder if it was a Muslim thing or a feminazi thing or wierd mixture of both.

Ajamil
18th July 09, 03:25 PM
That's an interesting comment, I have had arguments with my wife about the Hijab she hates it, NOT as a religious thing but as a feminist thing.

I'm sorry, but unless this is expanded (and it's not your place to do so, as it's her comment) I find it as silly as looking down on a woman who chooses to live at home with her kids while her husband goes to work.

EuropIan
18th July 09, 03:29 PM
The Hijab does not repress sexuality well enough.

And when the hijab is a cultural fashion accessory (because it is), any talk about how this is an oppressive tool for gender discrimination kinda falls flat on its face.

Cullion
18th July 09, 04:47 PM
The Hijab does not repress sexuality well enough.

Oh you fucking filthy fuck!

I like the cut of your jib.

EuropIan
18th July 09, 05:01 PM
young middle eastern women are hot...

No scarf can hide that

Artful Dentures
18th July 09, 07:24 PM
I'm sorry, but unless this is expanded (and it's not your place to do so, as it's her comment) I find it as silly as looking down on a woman who chooses to live at home with her kids while her husband goes to work.


I don't agree with her ( about the Berka yes but that's another issue.)

But her contention is that the wearing of a Hajib is ogften forced on women so they don't have an individual identity.

I counter this by saying while possibly true in places like Saudi Arabia you can't see a woman here wearing one and assume it's for the same reasons.


My point is that Aaahmed commented on his mom getting dirty looks and attributing it to anti-Muslim sentiment.

As a Muslim woman would she have gotten the same look if she had not worn it but people knew she was a Muslim woman.

I am just saying it might have been a feminist thing

Sun Wukong
18th July 09, 07:39 PM
I think it's in agreement that Israel is generally one of the worst idea's in world history.

WarPhalange
19th July 09, 01:27 AM
I hate what that statement brings with it. It's like saying "My kid is autistic. I wish I had screened for autism during pregnancy."

Does that mean Israel should be raped into oblivion? No. But, given the chance to go back in time to stop the whole mess, would I do it? Yeah. Or at least give them a different piece of land. All of a sudden these Arabs and Persians see all these people kicking people out of their homes and taking over the holy land of Muslims simply because of who they are, not because of what they did or will do. I'd be pissed too.

That's why I'm just appalled at Israel's holier-than-thou attitude towards everyone else in the ME. You're the new guy that came in and stopped the stereo in order to change the music to a completely different genre that only you like. Fuck that.

socratic
19th July 09, 04:01 AM
Well that story is the foundation of what Christians believe.

Unfortunately.


Personally I think it's just a kind of coat-peg which people can hang a deeper seated hostility to other tribal groupings on. Early Jews in Europe often looked different ethnically. To varying degrees, people have an instinctual distrust of identifiable 'outsiders', then they often try to find some more rational sounding grievance to hang this on. It's how people manage the cognitive dissonance when reconciling a primitive tribal instinct, they just make elaborate shit up.

I'd surprised if somebody from the ancient eastern mediterranean didn't have a tough time making a life amongst northern european villagers well before they converted to Christianity, it's just that the reasons given would've been different.
'Why won't Avraham put flowers around the holy well with the rest of us, what makes him so special?', 'how come he doesn't join in when we share the roast boar afterwards? how ungreatful!' etc..

This is why I said landed 'locals' always hate diasporic or mobile peoples. They're the eternal, obvious, perpetual 'other', they cross all your boundaries and borders and they creep into your society. If you were an intolerant person it'd give you the mighty shits.


Well, in the narrative that Christians believe, they did, but they did it to other Jews. There is no great conflict between Jews and Gentiles in the New Testamament, it's the story of a struggle between different Jewish factions.

Which I suppose is a very important story for the historical context. I'd imagine there was quite a bit of this at the time, Pharisees vs Sadducees, Pharisees vs everybody, other minority groups vs each other.


Several Roman writers saw the Jews as more dangerous than the Roma are portrayed today. More in line with the anti-semitic 'secret power behind the throne' theories that abound today, rather than simply looking down upon them as petty criminals, which is the thrust of anti-gypsy racism in modern Europe.

Juvenal seemed to think they were just dirty, poor, tricksters and shifty as hell. Apparently "I thought he was Jew" was a pretty good excuse for assault in a Roman court.


The Hijab does not repress sexuality well enough.

And when the hijab is a cultural fashion accessory (because it is), any talk about how this is an oppressive tool for gender discrimination kinda falls flat on its face.

It sorta does if you take it off in public and get killed. I can think of more than one Egyptian feminist who refuses to wear the Hijab and counters 'Wear it, whore!' with Quranic verses. Egyptian fashion is awesome though, since it's ludicrously restrictive yet they go crazy creative on it, so those nice trendy Egyptians girls can be faithful to God yet so chique.

EuropIan
19th July 09, 04:51 AM
It sorta does if you take it off in public and get killed. I can think of more than one Egyptian feminist who refuses to wear the Hijab and counters 'Wear it, whore!' with Quranic verses. Egyptian fashion is awesome though, since it's ludicrously restrictive yet they go crazy creative on it, so those nice trendy Egyptians girls can be faithful to God yet so chique.
Do you see the inheirent irony in an object that suppossed to dampen sexual tension only to become a fashion accessory?

socratic
19th July 09, 05:18 AM
Do you see the inherent irony in an object that supposed to dampen sexual tension only to become a fashion accessory?

I suppose, but then you have to note the sense of pathetic desperation in attempting to fashion-ize the hijab because you could get killed for dressing how you wish you could. Sure, the some of the fashion and sexual tension escapes through some of the cracks, but there's still a wall there... I mean, 'fashionable' is 'using two scarves, notably colour coordinated quite nicely, instead of using one scarf'. Or 'rather colourful full body covering'. There's some good piccies from TIME of local youth trends and fashion, some very beautiful, albiet extremely conservative, clothes.

People argue amongst the ulema in both genders as to whether the hijab is oppressive or liberating. There's arguments for both. I tend to go for the former.

Lebell
19th July 09, 08:50 AM
Stuff like this just doesn't upset most europeans. Lebell's probably more worried about how soon his country will institute Sharia law because the indigenous dutch are outnumbered.

yes and when they would install it im going to find out just how many are REALLY willing to die for their allah.

im going to bomb stuff see how they like that for a change!


lolol.

Ajamil
19th July 09, 11:41 AM
Just remember that the bomb gets strapped to your chest.

Virus
19th July 09, 09:19 PM
Actually it's really only been around significantly since isreal's creation.

Mohammad Amin al-Husayni.

socratic
20th July 09, 12:18 AM
Is there any validity to the claim that Mohammed was raised/'ethnically' Jewish?

HappyOldGuy
20th July 09, 10:27 AM
Is there any validity to the claim that Mohammed was raised/'ethnically' Jewish?

I'm about 800 kinds of not an expert on Islam, but I'm in the middle of "No God but God" and apparently he did marry a nice jewish gal. Nothing about him being ethnically jewish tho.

Lebell
20th July 09, 10:38 AM
thats nice info, BUT they are still building a CENTER OF TOLERANCE on a muslim CEMETARY.

HappyOldGuy
20th July 09, 10:50 AM
He also married a christian lady.

Lebell
20th July 09, 11:15 AM
uncle Muhammad wasnt picky, thats for sure.

Cullion
20th July 09, 02:55 PM
I'm about 800 kinds of not an expert on Islam, but I'm in the middle of "No God but God" and apparently he did marry a nice jewish gal. Nothing about him being ethnically jewish tho.

The name of his tribe (the queresh (sp?)) is given in the Koran, IIRC. So I would guess it's something that can be checked.

My understanding was that he was originally an Arabian tribal polytheist who had some knowledge of Jewish and Christian ideas from trading with them.

bob
20th July 09, 03:49 PM
Supposedly his favourite wife was six when he married her and nine when it was consumated. He was well into middle age at the time.

Cullion
20th July 09, 03:51 PM
zedtaqvRvuc

Kill me now, before it's too late.

Kein Haar
20th July 09, 04:32 PM
Why a late season intro?

Cullion
20th July 09, 04:48 PM
First one I came to.

socratic
20th July 09, 06:14 PM
Supposedly his favourite wife was six when he married her and nine when it was consumated. He was well into middle age at the time.

That was Aisha [or however you write it], the 'one true love' of his wives. As I understand it [thanks Aaahmed] Mohammed married several women for a lot of reasons; to look after them, to empower them, etc. Aisha was his hoochie mama though.

I'm pretty sure she was 9 when they married and at least 12 when they consumated. She was definitely ovulating. Remember of course this was in the 700s in a desert community.

Lebell
21st July 09, 04:47 AM
plus arabic women dont stay pretty long, get em while they're still fresh!

im with muhamad on this one.

Cullion
21st July 09, 04:50 AM
In the 700s right through to much more recently European girls married as young as 11 or 12 to men old enough to be their fathers. They were basically eligible to marry once they were ovulating.

Lebell
21st July 09, 04:57 AM
dude im so born in the wrong time.

Cullion
21st July 09, 04:58 AM
Some lipstick, a pushup bra, and a vow of silence from her, and you can still live your dream Lebell.

Lebell
21st July 09, 05:20 AM
no i like meh women late 20ies mid 30ies.
preferably married because that way they are extra appreciative of our liaison dangereux.

thats my theory, when women know there is no relationship in it and just for sex they get really hot in the sack.

one time i screwed it up a bit, after doing some unspeakable things to a hot cougar i was like banging her doggystyle and she's moaning and groaning saying what i should do to her nasty ass.

its all good fun but i fucked up by saying: 'whoa..you kiss your kids with that mouth?'

sorta ruined the vibe we had going.

Ajamil
21st July 09, 09:36 AM
Next time ask about the goings-on of her mother. It's like playing rodeo, where you call the wrong name and see how long you can stay in the saddle.

Lebell
21st July 09, 09:47 AM
Next time ask about the goings-on of her mother. It's like playing rodeo, where you call the wrong name and see how long you can stay in the saddle.

call the wrong name in order to have rodeo?
you noob...

' oh btw i got tested hiv positive..'

Cullion
21st July 09, 10:55 AM
Have you been barebacking again Lebell ? You'll get yourself into trouble..

Ajamil
21st July 09, 11:03 AM
Never actually did the wrong name, but I did ask one lady how her mother was doing. That got some great looks of disgust and shoulder slapping. Good times.

Lebell
21st July 09, 11:28 AM
Have you been barebacking again Lebell ? You'll get yourself into trouble..

worst STD i ever got was genital warts.
well actually just one.

no biggie.

*COUGH*

DUDE...

AAAhmed46
24th July 09, 11:29 PM
That was Aisha [or however you write it], the 'one true love' of his wives. As I understand it [thanks Aaahmed] Mohammed married several women for a lot of reasons; to look after them, to empower them, etc. Aisha was his hoochie mama though.

I'm pretty sure she was 9 when they married and at least 12 when they consumated. She was definitely ovulating. Remember of course this was in the 700s in a desert community.

She was six when they were bethrothed(not married) and she was nine when they married. Consumation was done when she menstrated. According to Dr.Lang, arabs way back when didn't keep birth records or record deaths, they measured thier life in seasons...the age in the hadith is a best guess.

SOme would argue khadija was his one love, though clearly he doted on aisha. She played a very large role after muhammed died.

AAAhmed46
24th July 09, 11:34 PM
Mohammad Amin al-Husayni.

You realize that zionism predates ww2?

Mohammed Asad talks about seeing jews settling in what was then palistine during his travels...pre-ww2.

I love how anti-islamic websites use this to tie islam to fascism. It's funny.

AAAhmed46
24th July 09, 11:40 PM
The name of his tribe (the queresh (sp?)) is given in the Koran, IIRC. So I would guess it's something that can be checked.

My understanding was that he was originally an Arabian tribal polytheist who had some knowledge of Jewish and Christian ideas from trading with them.

He was a kid when he came in contact with jews and chrisitians pre-revelation. Though to be fair, biblical stories probably were known among the polythiests as well.

AAAhmed46
24th July 09, 11:56 PM
I don't agree with her ( about the Berka yes but that's another issue.)

But her contention is that the wearing of a Hajib is ogften forced on women so they don't have an individual identity.

I counter this by saying while possibly true in places like Saudi Arabia you can't see a woman here wearing one and assume it's for the same reasons.


My point is that Aaahmed commented on his mom getting dirty looks and attributing it to anti-Muslim sentiment.

As a Muslim woman would she have gotten the same look if she had not worn it but people knew she was a Muslim woman.

I am just saying it might have been a feminist thing

It's such a big assumption that those girls are forced to wear them(not talking of you specifically or your wife, but....everyone). It's strange that i hear this outside of muslim circles more then i do within. I do agree many girls wear it because it would make thier families happy. And of course there is that girl stabbed for not wearing her hijab(though she took it off a long time ago, they said things just came to a head with her butting heads with her father) and i know girls who used to take thier hijabs off when chilling with friends but put it on in front of their parents. THen one day they say to mommy and daddy "dunt wanna wear it" and thiers a little "Oh noes' yer not islamic'' but soon life goes on without much hassle. Infact, more muslim girls don't wear hijab then wear it.


On other comments: Hijab goes beyond the hole covering the head. It's basically hiding tities and asses as well.
One can argue against that but well, thats a topic for another thread.

AAAhmed46
24th July 09, 11:57 PM
Wow, pat condell actually said something that didn't feel hateful.

AAAhmed46
25th July 09, 12:04 AM
Has anyone met anyone who believes in all jews leaving isreal? Last time i met someone who believed that was a palistinian kid in highschool, but never since then. Im sure Gaza is filled with them right now though.

Virus
25th July 09, 12:10 AM
You realize that zionism predates ww2?

Mohammed Asad talks about seeing jews settling in what was then palistine during his travels...pre-ww2.

I love how anti-islamic websites use this to tie islam to fascism. It's funny.

You said:



Actually it's really only been around significantly since isreal's creation.

The grand mufti of Jerusalem was an antisemite before the creation of Israel.

AAAhmed46
25th July 09, 12:14 AM
You said:



The grand mufti of Jerusalem was an antisemite before the creation of Israel.


Does the grand mufti of jerusalem represent the entire arab/muslim world? Does he(or more accurately) represent institutionalized racism within a community? Do you think your typical Syrian Lebanese/egyption farmer knew who the guy was, or cared about jews? Or did they start caring about what jews did when they picked up newspapers talking about isreals creation oh so close to them?

I was answering a question about common cultural inherent cultural hatred toward an ethnic/religous group. Did the grand mufti of jerusalem represent inherent hatred of a group within the culture of a race of people?



Saying zionism predates ww2 isn't the same as saying anti-semetism began to grow once the jewish state was established. Because though zionism predates ww2, isreal does not predate ww2.

If you read up on middle eastern politics, especially way back when, most arabs were probably woefully unaware of it, especially considering internet, cellphones, and overall communication was very different.

You'll be surprised how few egyptions know who sayyid bin qutb is.


You said:

Quote:
Actually it's really only been around significantly since isreal's creation.
My statement was that it hasn't been around SIGNIFICANTLY since the creation of isreal. The entire arab world is far bigger then palistine or even the grand mufti of palistine.

Your arguement is the same as pulling out a random anti-semetic australian celebreity and saying it's proof australians are anti-semites. Or better yet, an anti-semetic neo-athiest who hates jews and saying it'ts representative of widespread anti-semetism among atheists. Seriously, if dawkins was an anti-semite, does that mean most athiests are anti-semites or even represents that? No it doesn't. THe same goes with the grand mufti.

Virus
25th July 09, 12:17 AM
Has anyone met anyone who believes in all jews leaving isreal? Last time i met someone who believed that was a palistinian kid in highschool, but never since then. Im sure Gaza is filled with them right now though.

I'd love it if it were possible. But that's about as likely as Australia packing up and moving to England. The only option is to share the land, and most Israelis, most Palestinian and pretty much everyone else agrees. Unfortunately faith-based factions on both sides have no interest in peace.

AAAhmed46
25th July 09, 12:22 AM
Professor Norman Finklestien(oh i know how some of the more pro-isreal members of the board hate him) states that the religious aspect of the conflict is way over blown, citing that many secular politicians of isreal and secular jewish politicians and secular zionists hold the idea of 'Bomb those mother fuckers to the ground" fuckers being the other. Hell his little disagreement with alan dershowitz is probably a good example. A secular jew hating arabs to the point of saying isreal has been too nice to them.

Ive even heard that Avigdor lieberman is a more secular then likud but more hardcore toward Palestinians. But i can't confirm this.

I personally would argue religious extremists are more active on the muslim side then the jewish.





THAT SAID:


Clearly, the religious zealots in isreal are fuckeded up and don't exactly help. Clearly their vote is powerful.

Ajamil
25th July 09, 01:22 AM
Though to be fair, biblical stories probably were known among the polythiests as well.

6687
Took our stories!!

socratic
25th July 09, 02:46 AM
6687
Took our stories!!

You're like Indian by proxy aren't you? GIVE THE WEST BACK ALL THOSE JOBS IT DOESN'T WANT!!!!!

Lebell
25th July 09, 03:41 AM
the grand mufti with der fuhrer:http://ivarfjeld.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/hitler_mufti.jpg

Cullion
25th July 09, 04:18 AM
I'd love it if it were possible. But that's about as likely as Australia packing up and moving to England.

No need, we've got enough bar staff in central London now, and to be honest Polish girls are prettier.

Lebell
25th July 09, 04:26 AM
No need, we've got enough bar staff central London now, and to be honest Polish girls are prettier.

' ghello can i get you a drrrrink?'

' ghere you goh..'

Ajamil
25th July 09, 01:46 PM
You're like Indian by proxy aren't you? GIVE THE WEST BACK ALL THOSE JOBS IT DOESN'T WANT!!!!!

They outsourced their dogma. But no, check out the parallels between Kamsa and Herod. And then realize that the Romans have no record of such a massive slaughter in their Jewish province.

AAAhmed46
25th July 09, 06:20 PM
the grand mufti with der fuhrer:http://ivarfjeld.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/hitler_mufti.jpg

I don't know if there is a color photo of the mufti, but it would be funny if he were whiter then hitler.

Lebell
26th July 09, 02:44 AM
we can joke all we like but israel is still building on a cemetary.

disgusting.

DAYoung
26th July 09, 04:19 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6NqaV7Rp3OI&feature=related

Israeli soldiers in combat. Harrowing stuff.

You can see the daily doses of loss and violence that harden the hearts of the region.

Lebell
26th July 09, 04:23 AM
no apologies please.

if i had enough crap in my life it would be okay for me to throw a puppy of the roof?

thats fucking stupid.

DAYoung
26th July 09, 04:26 AM
Well, you sure found the holes in that argument...

*backs slowly away*

Lebell
26th July 09, 04:29 AM
whatever.

you know i made a valid point.

this is exactly the same stupid crap as:' we can shoot palestinian kids! our grandparents were in the holocaust!'

DAYoung
26th July 09, 04:33 AM
Nope.

I'm not apologising for anything.

I'm simply trying to grasp what turns otherwise civilised human beings into apologists for the slaughter of innocents. This is ONE part of that process.

Put another way: explanation is not justification.

(And the explanation works for both sides.)

Lebell
26th July 09, 04:51 AM
i just saw the footage of the ' harrowing stuff', it was a mild fireexchange and some pretty ffing amateuristic military work on israeli side.

they were extremely lucky nobody got killed.

DAYoung
26th July 09, 05:07 AM
Oh, absolutely.

Those soldiers had no reason to be scared. Nor did the Hizbollah. Neither will be hardened by it, nor more prepared for vengeance.

Lebell
26th July 09, 05:09 AM
Oh, absolutely.

Those soldiers had no reason to be scared. Nor did the Hizbollah. Neither will be hardened by it, nor more prepared for vengeance.

ofcourse they should be scared.

it's just walking into a house with 3 guys and ' not adding up one and one' and go: oopsee! guess what there are tango's present! who would have thought?'

strikes me as a bit...amateuristic.

especially when they had tanksupport.
observe, asses, retract and bomb the house.

instead 3 guys walk in and get shot in the legs.

Cullion
26th July 09, 05:15 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6NqaV7Rp3OI&feature=related

Israeli soldiers in combat. Harrowing stuff.

You can see the daily doses of loss and violence that harden the hearts of the region.

Of course I feel sorry for the people who get injured in war,
but they're carrying out an offensive operation in a neighbouring country.

DAYoung
26th July 09, 05:19 AM
No argument here.

But how would you go about defending Israeli towns near the border?

(I wouldn't, of course. I wouldn't live there.)

Cullion
26th July 09, 05:23 AM
No argument here.

But how would you go about defending Israeli towns near the border?


By not making all my neighbours hate me by bulldozing farms and villages and ignoring any and all UN resolutions on my territorial conquests and racial policies.

Lebell
26th July 09, 05:27 AM
in another 40 years the israelis will be outbred by the arabs and we can laugh about all this.

DAYoung
26th July 09, 05:29 AM
But it's done, Cullion. In the meantime, what to do?

And even if you don't agree with the government's policies, you're still a citizen, and your people are being fired upon. Then what?

(Not rhetorical questions, by the way. I'm not trying to get you to agree with me. I'm not a Zionist at all. I'm just curious - I assume you have a very strong sense of duty.)

Cullion
26th July 09, 05:32 AM
But that's done. And even if you don't agree with the government's policies, you're still a citizen, and your people are being fired upon. Then what?

(Not rhetorical questions, by the way. I'm not trying to get you to agree with me. I'm not a Zionist at all. I'm just curious - I assume you have a very strong sense of duty.)

In that situation you have a moral responsibility to remove from power the politicians putting your people in such danger. I read stories of Israeli soldiers, some of them decorated members of elite units, publicly refusing orders in Ha'aretz frequently.

DAYoung
26th July 09, 05:42 AM
Yes, I've read the same stories. Good men and women.

But it's not only the politicians. It's large lumps of the nation, impelled by weird Messianic worldviews, and odd Russian or American baggage.

It's a lot to fight against, while equally batshit men are shooting at you.

Cullion
26th July 09, 05:51 AM
Yes, if I was Jewish I'd want to visit to see various historical sites, but I doubt if I'd want to live there. I don't know if it's just that our whole political spectrum is to the left of America's, but the English Jews I know are generally quite concerned about treatment of Palestinians and arab neighbours, the only militant zionism I've heard in person has come from North American Jews.

DAYoung
26th July 09, 05:54 AM
Interesting. Thanks.

Lebell
26th July 09, 05:57 AM
if i was jewish i'd nuke mecca.

then spread leaflets everywhere: ' Allah got wtfpwned by Jahweh!! OWNED!!!lolol'

socratic
26th July 09, 06:22 AM
They outsourced their dogma. But no, check out the parallels between Kamsa and Herod. And then realize that the Romans have no record of such a massive slaughter in their Jewish province.

Herod was actually a very good ethnarch, even if he was Idumean rather than Judean like his subjects. He built the High Temple [the one whose single wall still stands in Jerusalem]. Everything went to shit after he died, and it went even shitter after his son was evicted from power.

Cullion
26th July 09, 09:50 AM
Interesting. Thanks.

I've posted this before, but I thought this was relevant here:-

qMGuYjt6CP8

Artful Dentures
26th July 09, 10:15 AM
By not making all my neighbours hate me by bulldozing farms and villages and ignoring any and all UN resolutions on my territorial conquests and racial policies.

Not that I want to get into a who did what first debate, but Israel's neighbors hated Israel before any of that.


Actually 2 of Israels immediate neighbors, Jordan and Egypt have peace agreements.

the point being that Syria, and Iran to certain groups would hate Israel no matter what it did one way or the other.

Cullion
26th July 09, 10:24 AM
I don't believe that has to be the case, and I don't believe 'well, they're going to hate us anyway' is a reason to do some of the things that the hardline Israeli right espouses.

Artful Dentures
26th July 09, 11:43 AM
I don't believe that has to be the case, and I don't believe 'well, they're going to hate us anyway' is a reason to do some of the things that the hardline Israeli right espouses.

That's a different argument.

I am just stating the fact that no matter Israel does they'll get punished for it.


I.E. Pull out of Gaza and the Palestinians elect a government who has a mandate to destroy Israel and keeps launching rockets.

Doesn't mean that Israel should respond by dropping white phosphorus on civilians, but there was an interesting article I read a long time ago where it said the only goal of terrorism was to drive your opponents crazy.

Cullion
26th July 09, 11:46 AM
I am just stating the fact that no matter Israel does they'll get punished for it.

I think there's an element of a false meme here that hardline right-wing zionists spread around to maintain a 'siege mentality'.

MaverickZ
26th July 09, 11:50 AM
I don't believe that has to be the case, and I don't believe 'well, they're going to hate us anyway' is a reason to do some of the things that the hardline Israeli right espouses.
How would you explain the 1948 war?

WarPhalange
26th July 09, 12:13 PM
I've posted this before, but I thought this was relevant here:-

qMGuYjt6CP8

What a fucking anti-semite.

Cullion
26th July 09, 12:21 PM
How would you explain the 1948 war?

Don't get me wrong, I don't think this is all Israel's fault. I'm expressing concern about the way it's unfolding today.

In that particular case I think it was Arab grievance at the land partition not being accordance with the population counts of Arabs and Israelis and the the whole idea of a new country 'specially for Jews' being created right where they'd lived for generations.

Imagine how you'd feel if the UN declared, say, a Tamil state in Maryland because of sympathy for things that happened in Sri Lanka, which was set up to be 'for Tamils'? That's kind of what happened here.

Watch Sir Gerald Kaufman's speach. Tell me honestly, do you think he's a 'self hating' crank ?