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Harpy
30th June 09, 08:31 PM
Just read a news story about a New York National Guard officer who may be discharged for announcing he is gay:

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=832329

Just another instance of clueless, stupid, discriminatory policy-making by US authorities.

From Wikipedia (I can't even understand why the rest of the definitions of 'homosexual conduct' isn't just struck off the 'guideline'):

Sexual orientation will not be a bar to service unless manifested by homosexual conduct. The military will discharge members who engage in homosexual conduct, which is defined as a homosexual act, a statement that the member is homosexual or bisexual, or a marriage or attempted marriage to someone of the same gender.

quoted in "The Pentagon's New Policy Guidelines on Homosexuals in the Military",

WarPhalange
30th June 09, 08:46 PM
"Don't ask, don't tell" is the policy, I believe.

Everybody knows gay people are in the military. But nobody has any fucking clue how to handle the situation.

This way, everybody pretends gays don't exist and babies come from the stork.

JohnnyCache
30th June 09, 08:47 PM
doesn't really matter. He signed a thingy, then did what the thingy said not to do. The military isn't a liberal arts college campus, they boot you for that.

OTOH I'm firmly in the camp that thinks anyone who wants to fight should go in the first wave

WarPhalange
30th June 09, 08:48 PM
By the way, I have no better solution for the matter. It's a pretty FUBAR'ed situation.

f4n4n
30th June 09, 09:00 PM
aotlEpmAFVQ

WarPhalange
30th June 09, 09:06 PM
"How many normal soldiers is the life of of one gay person worth?"
"Seven."

elipson
30th June 09, 09:27 PM
By the way, I have no better solution for the matter. It's a pretty FUBAR'ed situation.

You could, not kick them out maybe?

WarPhalange
30th June 09, 09:28 PM
Sure, but then you have straight guys showering with gay guys. That would be like guys showering with girls. Do you really want the military to be like a college dorm?

Arhetton
30th June 09, 09:36 PM
what about an all gay battalion? I could think of nothing more terrifying/fantastic than a bunch of gay men parachuting down on the enemy position, pink parachutes fluttering in the skies as they drop down like bizarre angels of death.

WarPhalange
30th June 09, 09:43 PM
With YMCA blasting as they go down (pun not intended)?

Harpy
30th June 09, 09:44 PM
Arhetton - are you kidding? Why should they be isolated in such a way?

Speaking about one's racial background, age, gender, sexual orientation should NEVER be grounds for discrimination.

JC - Just because you sign something does not mean you have to abide by something as stupid as that clause.

Fearless Ukemi
30th June 09, 09:51 PM
This thread sucks.

kracker
30th June 09, 09:57 PM
What, gay people are somehow incapable of slaughtering college kids in a peaceful protest? The National guard can go choke on a cock.

Harpy
30th June 09, 10:00 PM
This thread sucks.

At least you never said this about my Austen threads. Ergo, you are gay :)

Domite
30th June 09, 10:32 PM
Look it's not that they hate gays, it's just that overt homosexuality ruins the sublimated homoeroticeism nessisary for creating a league of violent killing machines. let Zizek break it down for you:

"From my own experience, I remember how the old infamous Yugoslav People’s Army was homophobic in the extreme—when someone was discovered to have homosexual inclinations, he was instantly turned into a pariah, before being formally dismissed from the Army—yet, at the same time, everyday army life was excessively permeated with an atmosphere of homosexual innuendo.

Say, while soldiers were standing in line for their meal, a common vulgar joke was to stick a finger into the arse of the person ahead of you and then to withdraw it quickly, so that when the surprised victim turned around, he did not know who among the soldiers sharing a stupid obscene smile had done it. A predominant form of greeting a fellow soldier in my unit, instead of simply saying ‘Hello!’, was to say ‘Smoke my prick!’ ( ‘Pusi kurac!’ in Serbo-Croat); this formula was so standardized that it had completely lost any obscene connotation and was pronounced in a totally neutral way, as a pure act of politeness.


This fragile coexistence of extreme and violent homophobia with thwarted, that is, publicly unacknowledged, ‘underground’ homosexual libidinal economy, bears witness to the fact that the discourse of the military community can only operate by way of censoring its own libidinal foundation. At a slightly different level, the same goes for the practice of hazing—the ceremonial beating up and humiliating of us Marines by their elder peers, who stick medals directly onto their skin, and so on. When the public disclosure of these practices (somebody secretly shot them on video) caused such an outrage, what disturbed the public was not the practice of hazing itself (everybody was aware that things like this were going on), but the fact of it being rendered public.


Outside the confines of military life, do we not encounter a strictly homologous self-censoring mechanism in conservative populism with its sexist and racist bias? In the election campaigns of Jesse Helms, the racist and sexist message is not publicly acknowledged—at the public level, it is sometimes even violently disavowed—but is instead articulated in a series of double-entendres and coded allusions. This kind of self-censorship is necessary if, in the present ideological conditions, Helms’s discourse is to remain effective. If it were to articulate directly, in a public way, its racist bias, this would render it unacceptable in the hegemonic political discourse; if it were effectively to abandon the self-censored coded racist message, it would endanger the support of its targeted electoral body.


Conservative populist political discourse thus offers an exemplary case of a power discourse whose efficiency depends on the mechanism of self-censorship: it relies on a mechanism which is effective only insofar as it remains censored. Against the image, all-present in cultural criticism, of a radical subversive discourse or practice ‘censored’ by the Power, one is even tempted to claim that today, more than ever, the mechanism of censorship intervenes predominantly to enhance the efficiency of the power discourse itself."

JohnnyCache
30th June 09, 11:26 PM
Arhetton - are you kidding? Why should they be isolated in such a way?

Speaking about one's racial background, age, gender, sexual orientation should NEVER be grounds for discrimination.

JC - Just because you sign something does not mean you have to abide by something as stupid as that clause.

No, see, if you sign a thing that says "I will not do the following" then you do the following, you're a dipshit. You are basically saying, to your superior, "You are a weak-backed beta-male with no fucking teeth that can hurt me so fuck you" and lo and behold, that doesn't work well in the army. You signed the thing. It's not an externally imposed condition. You don't get to go "Oh? that thing I signed? I decided that part of it was stupid" and do it anyway.

It has to do with it being "the army" and not a fucking meeting of the first wives club. The army is a body of people who maintain the machine of the most literal manifestation of state power. They consider killing a lot of motherfuckers to be a nice bullet point (PUN INTENDED LOL) on someone's CV.

The army is a body of professional soldiers, not a venue for free expression. You don't try to change it from within by making a bold public statement of your violation of policy. It's just not that kind of a body - the glue holding it together after all is mass killing.

I can hear the dudes at the pentagon now

"Well, we're tasked with the job of killing our nation's enemies but we seem to have hurt the feelings of this gay. We need to think more about how we hurt feelings in general, and gay feelings in particular, don't we guys?"

Now, is this particular clause stupid? Yes. Maybe gays should do something smart, like maintain a petition of people who COULD join the military if they weren't gay, and wave it under the nose of everyone who bitches about military enlistment dwindling, or form wealthy DINK households that can then lobby congress for their right to be broke-ass e-3s alongside every fucking clark kent wanabe and not-quite-good-enough-for-college HS football star the square states can produce.

Ajamil
30th June 09, 11:36 PM
Sure, but then you have straight guys showering with gay guys. That would be like guys showering with girls. Do you really want the military to be like a college dorm?

From an NPR interview of an Arabic specialist kicked out before the war because of telling, "There are already gays in the showers. Why don't we hear of these problems now?"

WarPhalange
30th June 09, 11:38 PM
Now, is this particular clause stupid? Yes. Maybe gays should do something smart, like maintain a petition of people who COULD join the military if they weren't gay, and wave it under the nose of everyone who bitches about military enlistment dwindling, or form wealthy DINK households that can then lobby congress for their right to be broke-ass e-3s alongside every fucking clark kent wanabe and not-quite-good-enough-for-college HS football star the square states can produce.

This made me laugh. Especially the last sentence. :)

MrGalt
1st July 09, 03:18 AM
No, see, if you sign a thing that says "I will not do the following" then you do the following, you're a dipshit. You are basically saying, to your superior, "You are a weak-backed beta-male with no fucking teeth that can hurt me so fuck you" and lo and behold, that doesn't work well in the army. You signed the thing. It's not an externally imposed condition. You don't get to go "Oh? that thing I signed? I decided that part of it was stupid" and do it anyway.

This idea took me some time to wrap my head around when I was a kid. I used to hate all kinds of rules and thought, "If I didn't feel like mowing my lawn I'd tell the homeowner's association to blow me," etc. Then I finally realized that most onerous rules are freely adopted by the followers and violators alike. Nobody makes you live in that neighborhood, take that job, go to that bar, etc., so you're always free to do whatever you want SOMEWHERE ELSE.

However I would like to hear one more take on this. We do have selective service registration laws still on the books and in theory could reinstitute a draft at need. What do you think of the interaction between a ban on homosexuality in the military and conscription? Does anybody know of a country that has both? How do South Korea and Israel handle homosexuals, for instance?

taijiamn
1st July 09, 04:44 AM
From an NPR interview of an Arabic specialist kicked out before the war because of telling, "There are already gays in the showers. Why don't we hear of these problems now?"

It's less of a problem of showering and more of a problem with rights and benefits, The military already has a problem with quickie tech school marriges, where two members marry just to get extra money and better housing only to divorce later. There would even more problems if anyone was allowed to marry anyone, you don't have to prove any kind of relationship, so the military would loose out on tons of money.

There's also the problem of recognition. States can't make up their collective minds on wether or not gay marrige is leagle. If the military stepped up and accepted it, it would force the states to recognize it, and provide all benefits due.

bob
1st July 09, 05:04 AM
It's got nothing to do with their specific sexuality. It's because they have any sexuality at all. The military has been trying to create a secret army of deadly eunuchs for decades now.

http://thebikeandbiker.com/images/gijoedollundres.jpg

MrGalt
1st July 09, 08:12 AM
It's less of a problem of showering and more of a problem with rights and benefits, The military already has a problem with quickie tech school marriges, where two members marry just to get extra money and better housing only to divorce later. There would even more problems if anyone was allowed to marry anyone, you don't have to prove any kind of relationship, so the military would loose out on tons of money.

There's also the problem of recognition. States can't make up their collective minds on wether or not gay marrige is leagle. If the military stepped up and accepted it, it would force the states to recognize it, and provide all benefits due.

That's a valiant attempt, but I don't really think it has a damned thing to do with the military's policy. The ban on homosexuals in the military vastly predates the serious notion of gay marriage in the United States.

I used to do what you're doing and always try to find cold-blooded, rational explanations for everything in history until one day I was arguing economic reasons for the Crusades with a guy in a university history class and afterwards the professor took me aside and said, "You're not a Christian, are you?" "No." "Then it's going to be hard for you to accept this, but sometimes religious people just do things because they really believe this stuff."

So yeah, there are legal and financial issues that may now in hindsight be valid reasons for a ban on gays in the military. I am going to go out on a limb here and state my conviction that they weren't a factor in anybody's thinking when that policy was promulgated.

taijiamn
1st July 09, 08:33 AM
That's a valiant attempt, but I don't really think it has a damned thing to do with the military's policy. The ban on homosexuals in the military vastly predates the serious notion of gay marriage in the United States.

I used to do what you're doing and always try to find cold-blooded, rational explanations for everything in history until one day I was arguing economic reasons for the Crusades with a guy in a university history class and afterwards the professor took me aside and said, "You're not a Christian, are you?" "No." "Then it's going to be hard for you to accept this, but sometimes religious people just do things because they really believe this stuff."

So yeah, there are legal and financial issues that may now in hindsight be valid reasons for a ban on gays in the military. I am going to go out on a limb here and state my conviction that they weren't a factor in anybody's thinking when that policy was promulgated.

I agree with that, I have no doubt that people who were against homosexuality used the no sodomy line in the UCMJ to further their rational that gays shouldn't be in the military. No sodomy has been in the rules for a very long time.

I was just trying to address Arjuna's post, not give rational for the entire process.

Shawarma
1st July 09, 08:38 AM
I'm wondering: How do you "announce" that you are gay in the army?

"WHAT'S YOUR NAME MAGGOT?"
"SIR, PRIVATE BROWN, SIR!"
"DO YOU SUCK DICKS?"
"Why, yes in fact I do, you big sexy hunk of man-meat, sir.
".......OK, MOVING ON!"

Marrt
1st July 09, 09:00 AM
This idea ... SOMEWHERE ELSE.

However I would like to hear one more take on this. We do have selective service registration laws still on the books and in theory could reinstitute a draft at need. What do you think of the interaction between a ban on homosexuality in the military and conscription? Does anybody know of a country that has both? How do South Korea and Israel handle homosexuals, for instance?

The IDF does not differentiate, i.e. there is no institutionalized stigma to being homosexual in the Israeli army. A soldier may still be harassed by his fellow soldiers (vis. mirror of societal attitudes) but the military itself does not directly discriminate in military service based on sexual orientation.

The IDF has draft avoidance issues for other reasons.

Lohff
1st July 09, 09:18 AM
the glue holding it together after all is [I]mass killing.
I'm not sure why I felt the need to comment on this particular statement, but I do. Tim O'Brien was dead on when he said that fear is what drives a soldier. But it isn't just the fear of dying, it is the fear of appearing like a coward in front of your comrades. That fear is all encompassing, and it also explains why so many soldiers do so much stupid shit when they are off duty. I was terrified of letting others now how scared I got sometimes. When we jumped into Afghanistan, the only thing that got me out that door was fear of being seen as a coward, which is what I felt like.

The military can be one great big mind fuck.

*End thread derail*

partyboy
1st July 09, 09:27 AM
From an NPR interview of an Arabic specialist kicked out before the war because of telling, "There are already gays in the showers. Why don't we hear of these problems now?"

that's always rankled me... gays/lesbians get to shower freely at gyms and see their sexual preferences nude. GIVE ME BSG CO-ED SHOWERS PLZ



- damn it all, I can't find the family guy quote that I wanted to reference here but it goes something like this:

Peter (to a gay person): "So when you guys are in the locker room is that like Sizzler for you?"

Shawarma
1st July 09, 10:03 AM
An interesting part of Plato's Symposion is that one of the speakers says that an army of homofaggots is, in fact, a desirable thing, no pun intended.

I mean, when you're fighting alongside your boyfriend, you fight the hardest you can so he doesn't end up being killed, and you're not likely to run away, because who wants to look like a pussy in front of their gay boyfriend? Pun intended.

Several great warrior cultures had traditions of fudgepackery, the Greeks, Samurai and Afghans spring to mind.

Spade: The Real Snake
1st July 09, 12:23 PM
The US National Guard Cannot "Go Suck It" as it would be a violation of "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"

WarPhalange
1st July 09, 12:45 PM
It's less of a problem of showering and more of a problem with rights and benefits, The military already has a problem with quickie tech school marriges, where two members marry just to get extra money and better housing only to divorce later. There would even more problems if anyone was allowed to marry anyone, you don't have to prove any kind of relationship, so the military would loose out on tons of money.

Maybe they should stop wasting so much money on stupid shit like people throwing unloaded weapons in the air?


States can't make up their collective minds on wether or not gay marrige is leagle.


Bahahahaha!


If the military stepped up and accepted it, it would force the states to recognize it, and provide all benefits due.

No, the GOP would simply say that the military is unpatriotic and unAmerican.

Cullion
1st July 09, 01:15 PM
Man, you guys are so sexually immature.

Everybody knows that bans on homosexuality in the military, the catholic church etc.. were created by closeted homosexuals to preserve the frisson of doing something forbidden, in a special costume, in secret.

Lebell
1st July 09, 01:22 PM
i think that discrimination is always a good idea.

all black dudes regiment

all white dudes regiment

all asian dudes regiment

those three are divided in:

all gay regiment

all lesbian regiment

then those are divided into religous and political backgrounds.

so after a complex system of shifting you'll get the 21nd gay south ethiopean descent socialistic/communistic battallion who loves dogs (so not to be mistaken for those pussy loving faggots of the 22nd.)

Spade: The Real Snake
1st July 09, 02:04 PM
^^^
This message brought to you by the Dutch Mat-Taping and All-Male Buddah Head Showering Brigade

Lebell
1st July 09, 02:42 PM
^^^

and we are a very elitist, very very special unit.

jealous much?

MaverickZ
1st July 09, 02:49 PM
21nd gay... ...battallion
The "twenty oned batallion"?

Lebell
1st July 09, 02:51 PM
DUTCHHATERS!!!DUTCHHATERS!!!

I BET THE DUTCH CANT JOIN THE US NATIONAL GUARD NEITHER HUH?

Doritosaurus Chex
1st July 09, 03:05 PM
The "twenty oned batallion"?

It's like getting sixty nined, but not as bad by forty eight.

CannibalCrowley
1st July 09, 05:02 PM
I thought Obama said he was going to get rid of Don't Ask Don't Tell.


I BET THE DUTCH CANT JOIN THE US NATIONAL GUARD NEITHER HUH?

You just can't wear wooden shoes. Oh, no tulips either.

Spade: The Real Snake
1st July 09, 05:26 PM
I thought Obama said he was going to get rid of Don't Ask Don't Tell.
Only with his staff.

Cullion
1st July 09, 05:28 PM
Love him or hate him, the most urgent batch of paperwork in any POTUS' intray right now is not going to be the one about whether or not the Army should be allowed to talk about buttsex.

Spade: The Real Snake
1st July 09, 05:29 PM
Love him or hate him, the most urgent batch of paperwork in any POTUS' intray right now is not going to be the one about whether or not the Army should be allowed to talk about buttsex.

Didn't you just recently sign up for the Reserves?

Cullion
1st July 09, 05:38 PM
I'm not in a military unit yet, I've only recently signed the final application paperwork after spending months and months working out for it at a class run by military PT instructors aimed at civilians who'd like to join, and researching exactly which reserve unit I want to join. There are still many, many hurdles I could fall at before I'm a trained serviceman.

Back to the thread: You don't get barred from serving in the British military for being an 'out' homosexual anymore as long as all the usual job-related standards are met. It's been like that for a few years. Being homosexual on the side is a longstanding semi-official tradition in parts of our Navy.

They do have issues with cross-dressing transexuals still.

Harpy
1st July 09, 06:07 PM
The US National Guard Cannot "Go Suck It" as it would be a violation of "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"

Not true. They can do so as long as they don't publicly announce it.

bob
1st July 09, 06:08 PM
There are still many, many hurdles I could fall at before I'm a trained serviceman.

They do have issues with cross-dressing transexuals still.

bob
1st July 09, 06:09 PM
I would have made a great journalist.

Cullion
1st July 09, 06:14 PM
There's a first time for everything, right?

partyboy
1st July 09, 06:34 PM
I thought Obama said he was going to get rid of Don't Ask Don't Tell.


Only with his staff.


NICE DOUBLE ENTENDRE

Wounded Ronin
1st July 09, 06:41 PM
However I would like to hear one more take on this. We do have selective service registration laws still on the books and in theory could reinstitute a draft at need. What do you think of the interaction between a ban on homosexuality in the military and conscription? Does anybody know of a country that has both? How do South Korea and Israel handle homosexuals, for instance?

Plus if there were a draft there would hypothetically be lots of people who didn't want to serve, and who would rather go and suck on a cock in public even if they were straight as an alternative to getting their limbs blown off.

MrGalt
1st July 09, 07:20 PM
I've heard somebody say that upon getting back from Iraq that if they called him up again he'd blow somebody on camera and bring in the video. Failing that he said he planned to cut his index fingers off.

Ajamil
1st July 09, 11:25 PM
I'd always liked the idea of shooting off your big toe. You'll limp the rest of your life, but as dismemberment goes it's not so bad, and if you can't march there's no way they'll let you in the service.

MEGA JESUS-SAMA
2nd July 09, 02:52 AM
just burn your draft card and say "no".

Lebell
2nd July 09, 05:26 AM
its unlikely that vast hordes of gays will join the army since they hate it when people are wearing the same outfit as they do.

'fashioncheck, hunns!'

Sun Wukong
2nd July 09, 06:27 AM
is anybody else completely sick of lily's passive/aggressive emotional problems?

Lebell
2nd July 09, 06:53 AM
i already started a thread devoted to sort out lily's emotional issues.

Spade: The Real Snake
2nd July 09, 10:36 AM
is anybody else completely sick of lily's passive/aggressive emotional problems?

She is a just a gay Australian man wanting to join the US Military.

is that so wrong?

GuiltySpark
4th July 09, 05:48 PM
Gays in the US military.
You can't forget who has a big albeit largely unknown hand in the US military.
The church.
If you ask me the church's anti-homosexual views is the biggest reason why gays are such a big deal in the military.

I've worked with homosexual dudes, same as everyone else. The showers don't turn into giant orgies, they don't run around converting straight men to the dark side.
They get caught fucking in quit out of th way places the same as guys get caught fucking girls in the military.

Some years back it used to be illegal in the Canadian Military. The military police investigation guys would creep around 'suspected homo's' houses and try to get pictures of guys holding hands with guys, girls cooking supper for girls. Picking through their garbage looking for evidence of gayness.

Waste of time if you ask me.

Get rid of the church's influence over the US military.

Cullion
4th July 09, 05:50 PM
Or they could go get some big fruity gay pastors.

asH_mixm4bM

GuiltySpark
4th July 09, 05:52 PM
Cullion you joined the reserves?
Do you mind if I ask what trade you joined? Like what specific job? Tried PMing you but your inbox is full

Cullion
4th July 09, 06:01 PM
I just deleted a few messages from my inbox.

GuiltySpark
4th July 09, 06:12 PM
Cullion has exceeded their stored private messages quota and can not accept further messages until they clear some space.
You're killin me ;)

Cullion
4th July 09, 06:21 PM
pm sent.

Lebell
5th July 09, 07:52 AM
yeah you ass, i wanted to reply to your pm last week and it was full back then too.

if you remember what you asked me, the answer is: YES.

;-)

Cullion
5th July 09, 08:24 AM
oh lol, yes I remember.

Shawarma
5th July 09, 08:59 AM
For fuck's sake, first Dagon, then Knob, then you two?

Marriage fever's runnin' high on Sociocide.

Lebell
5th July 09, 09:07 AM
Shawarma, pm incoming, hun.

MEGA JESUS-SAMA
5th July 09, 09:24 AM
hun.

FAG

Ajamil
5th July 09, 09:28 AM
Actually, I think he was referring to Shawarma being a descendant of Attila.

MrGalt
5th July 09, 10:02 AM
Some years back it used to be illegal in the Canadian Military. The military police investigation guys would creep around 'suspected homo's' houses and try to get pictures of guys holding hands with guys, girls cooking supper for girls. Picking through their garbage looking for evidence of gayness.


Didn't the RCMP also invent the what was it called, "Fruit Machine?" Kind of like an E-meter to measure gayitude?

Shawarma
5th July 09, 10:04 AM
Wondering if you still hold the high score?

Cullion
5th July 09, 10:23 AM
My god, I just read about the machine on wikipedia. That's absurd.

Lebell
5th July 09, 11:03 AM
FAG

stupid american.
only if YOU TAKE it in the mouth or ass makes you a fag.

if you are the one being sucked off or do the pumpin you are experimenting.

noob.

Harpy
5th July 09, 07:13 PM
is anybody else completely sick of lily's passive/aggressive emotional problems?

1. Irony

2. Take a deep breath and let your resentment go

3. Drink prune juice daily