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View Full Version : Cheyenne Cherry: Someone needs to smack a bitch.



Steve
6th June 09, 10:05 PM
What a fucking waste of a human being.

Bronx teen confesses to roasting kitten



http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i141/forstevee/ScreenHunter_04Jun061949.gif

A Bronx teenager roasted her ex-roommate's kitten to death in a stove - then brushed off the incident as a joke when she was busted, authorities said Thursday.

"I hate cats," Cheyenne Cherry, 17, allegedly told investigators when asked about the heartless crime.

Cherry's confession came after she was arrested Wednesday by the American Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals.

She and an unidentified juvenile allegedly broke into Valerie Hernandez's Tinton Ave. apartment on May 6 and trashed the place.

Then in a shocking act of animal abuse, they tossed the woman's kitten, Tiger Lily, into the stove and cranked up the temperature, ASPCA assistant director Joe Pentangelo said.

Cherry told authorities that she and her accomplice "thought we would play a joke on Valerie and mess up her apartment."

The duo bolted from the apartment with DVDs and packages of noodles, Pentangelo said.

"She didn't want to hear the cat crying and scratching at the oven door," Pentangelo said.

Firefighters found the female cat's remains smoldering in the oven after neighbors complained of smoke coming from Hernandez's apartment.

"My brother came to my house and said, 'I think food is burning,'" said Hernandez's next-door neighbor Jannetssie Genau, 24.

"Later the police came and said what it was. I was upset because I had a cat myself before."

Besides roasting the kitten, Cherry and her friend allegedly slashed Hernandez's furniture, unscrewed light bulbs and threw bleach on the walls, Pentangelo said.

"I think what was done cries out for justice," Pentangelo said. "It's a shame that this kitten had to suffer like this. For the kitten to get caught up in whatever was going on with them is a tragedy."

Pentangelo said the kitten was burned so badly a necropsy had to be performed to determine its sex.

Cherry was charged with aggravated cruelty to animals, burglary, arson, reckless endangerment and criminal mischief. She was released to the custody of her mother.

The unidentified juvenile involved in the incident has not been arrested.

------------------------------

Link. (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_crime/2009/06/05/2009-06-05_evil_teen_who_tossed_cat_in_the_oven.html#ixzz0 HcqxvRGZ&D)

Oh, but this isn't the first time this idiot has been mixed up with the law and other people's pets:

Cheyenne Cherry, teen accused of burning cat in oven, was busted in 2008 in armed dog-napping



http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i141/forstevee/ScreenHunter_05Jun061953.gifThe teen accused in a Bronx kitty killing was busted last year in the armed dog-napping of a teacup Yorkie, police said.

Cheyenne Cherry's boyfriend snatched the pooch from a woman in a Bronx park last June after holding a BB gun to her forehead, police said.

Days later, Cherry, 17, had the nerve to send friends to show up with the dog when a $500 reward was posted, the pooch's owner said. "She's evil," Johan Castro, 23, said.

Despite her June 2008 arrest for larceny and extortion, along with two other busts, Cherry was released without bail after being charged with letting a friend's kitten die inside a 200-degree oven.

"They wonder why this little girl doesn't learn right from wrong," Castro said. "If she's willing to kill a cat and steal my dog, what else will she do? She thinks she can beat the system."

Cherry said little Tiger Lily was killed during "a practical joke" - the same excuse she gave for shoving a gun in the robbery victim's face last year, cops said.

"It was just a joke," Cherry said after her arrest for robbing a man of his iPod at gunpoint. She pleaded guilty to robbery and got five years probation.

Cherry also had a 2007 arrest for smacking a girl in the head with jewelry, police said.

Cherry, now charged with aggravated cruelty to animals, arson, burglary and criminal mischief, is a dog owner who loves pets, her brother insisted.

"My sister is no cat killer," said David Cherry. "Cheyenne is not an animal hater. She has a little Yorkie that she loves."

In a cruel twist to the case, a Brooklyn retiree who shares a last name with Cherry is getting threats after someone mistakenly listed her number on a Web posting about the cat slaying.

"They're all saying, 'You'll burn in hell,' 'Who the hell do you think you are?'" Bernadette Cherry, 72, said of the 75 calls from cat lovers.

-----------------------------

Link. (http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i141/forstevee/ScreenHunter_05Jun061953.gif)

And I was having such a nice lazy Saturday until I stumbled onto this. Still, I had to check myself, I did think of posting this in NOM NOM NOM for giggles but that would be even too tasteless for even me (oops, excuse the pun "tasteless").

Anyway, I'm hoping that she gets some serious discipline:


353-a. Aggravated Cruelty to Animals.
(1) A person is guilty of aggravated cruelty to animals when, with no justifiable purpose, he or she intentionally kills or intentionally causes serious physical injury to a companion animal with aggravated cruelty. For purposes of this section, “aggravated cruelty” shall mean conduct which: (i) is intended to cause extreme physical pain; or (ii) is done or carried out in an especially depraved or sadistic manner.

(2) Nothing contained in this section shall be construed to prohibit or interfere in any way with anyone lawfully engaged in hunting, trapping, or fishing, as provided in article eleven of the environmental conservation law, the dispatch of rabid or diseased animals, as provided in article twenty-one of the public health law, or the dispatch of animals posing a threat to human safety or other animals, where such action is otherwise legally authorized, or any properly conducted scientific tests, experiments, or investigations involving the use of living animals, performed or conducted in laboratories or institutions approved for such purposes by the commissioner of health pursuant to section three hundred fifty-three of this article.

(3) Aggravated cruelty to animals is a felony. A defendant convicted of this offense shall be sentenced pursuant to paragraph (b) of subdivision one of section 55.10 of the penal law provided, however, that any term of imprisonment imposed for violation of this section shall be a definite sentence, which may not exceed two years.

Source. (http://www.grassrootsar.org/new-york/2008/aggravated-cruelty-to-animals/)

Perhaps with her other crimes she'll get more than the two years. That is if the she's tried as an adult (they fucking better, 17 years old should not be an escape for any crime, IMO).

WarPhalange
6th June 09, 10:21 PM
Someone should rape her and then when she screams about it, reply "LOL, it was just a practical joke! By the way, I have AIDS..."

It's kind of obvious that she's a sociopath. That's not something you can "cure", at least not at this time. Just lock her up and forget about her.

bob
6th June 09, 10:27 PM
At least she'll never have to change her name when she's forced into porn.

Dark Helmet
6th June 09, 10:32 PM
[B][SIZE="5"]

Besides roasting the kitten, Cherry and her friend allegedly slashed Hernandez's furniture, unscrewed light bulbs and threw bleach on the walls, Pentangelo said.

"I think what was done cries out for justice," Pentangelo said. "It's a shame that this kitten had to suffer like this. For the kitten to get caught up in whatever was going on with them is a tragedy."




Cheyenne Cherry's boyfriend snatched the pooch from a woman in a Bronx park last June after holding a BB gun to her forehead, police said.


Despite her June 2008 arrest for larceny and extortion, along with two other busts, Cherry was released without bail after being charged with letting a friend's kitten die inside a 200-degree oven.


Besides a good kick in the ass just what sort of ' time ' is she looking at in NY?

bob
6th June 09, 10:35 PM
I've just had a brilliant idea. Some porn director should just trawl the internet for girls like this. You know the type, the taxi girls who accused the driver of rape etc. The ones that really get the male angry happening. Offer them money to be fucked in humiliiating ways. Profit.

Meh, I'm sure somebody else has already thought of it.

Steve
6th June 09, 10:40 PM
Besides a good kick in the ass just what sort of ' time ' is she looking at in NY?


(3) Aggravated cruelty to animals is a felony. A defendant convicted of this offense shall be sentenced pursuant to paragraph (b) of subdivision one of section 55.10 of the penal law provided, however, that any term of imprisonment imposed for violation of this section shall be a definite sentence, which may not exceed two years.

Perhaps with her other crimes she'll get more than the two years. That is if the she's tried as an adult (they fucking better, 17 years old should not be an escape for any crime, IMO).

HappyOldGuy
6th June 09, 11:08 PM
She's going to kill a human being and rot in jail for the rest of her life.

Unfortunately we can't skip ahead.

WarPhalange
6th June 09, 11:08 PM
Torturing an animal to death = 2 years

Being caught with some weed = holy fuck say goodbye to your loved ones now, cuz you might never see them again.

Tanhalen21
6th June 09, 11:09 PM
Someone should just end her fucking life so taxpayers' money won't be wasted on keeping this psychopathic bitch housed and fed.

It's really the only logical option.

DAYoung
7th June 09, 12:12 AM
If only she'd killed a cow, pig, sheep or duck.

HappyOldGuy
7th June 09, 12:18 AM
If only she'd killed a cow, pig, sheep or duck.
Or eaten the kitten.

But seriously, revenge porn aside. This is pretty textbook sociopath.

WarPhalange
7th June 09, 12:22 AM
If only she'd killed a cow, pig, sheep or duck.

If she had put either of those animals into a stove while they were alive, people would be just as outraged. There's a difference between killing an animal efficiently* because you want to eat it and killing it cruelly because you think it's funny.

*by efficient I don't necessarily mean painlessly. A lion kills its prey by clamping down on the neck. It's a lot more efficient for the lion than trying to headbutt the other animal. So if cooking them alive was really the best method we had for hunting, it wouldn't really bother me. But she's causing pain for the sake of pain. No animals do that as far as I know. There's always a purpose to it. Hell, even when chimps decide to gang up on another chimp and kill it, I'm pretty sure they just try to do it as fast as possible and not just torture the thing to death.

Pfft, some philosopher you are.

DAYoung
7th June 09, 12:23 AM
This is pretty textbook sociopath.

Yes. I'm guessing she's a victim herself, or has some seriously crossed wires.

Ajamil
7th June 09, 12:31 AM
The worst part of all of this, for me, is the one little mention that she left because she "didn't want to hear" the kitten. So much in that makes me loathe her, it's difficult to get my brain to think of words at all, much less the ones to describe it.

Steve
7th June 09, 12:57 AM
The worst part of all of this, for me, is the one little mention that she left because she "didn't want to hear" the kitten. So much in that makes me loathe her, it's difficult to get my brain to think of words at all, much less the ones to describe it.

Indeed. Seriously, it would be one thing if she filmed it or reveled in it some how (a true "monster" type deal, and not saying that would be better. far from it).

Her running away just makes me think of what a weak person she really is, absolutely a pathetic and worthless individual. That and her obvious selfishness.

bob
7th June 09, 06:19 AM
It's certainly an odd phenomenom, this empathy we have for lower mammals. In many cases it seems more prominent than what we have for our fellow man, or at least more prominently displayed. It's part of what made the original Philip K Dick story behind Blade Runner so interesting, albeit in a different way to the film.

Fearless Ukemi
7th June 09, 06:27 AM
WHat a disgusting human being. I hope really bad things happen to her.

Kein Haar
7th June 09, 06:47 AM
Someone mentioned chimps.

Yes, let some chimps have a go at her.

Chimp maulings make my day...without exception.

Biting off noses, twisting off feet, castrations. Those fuckers have a clear social agenda.

Neildo
7th June 09, 06:48 AM
It's certainly an odd phenomenom, this empathy we have for lower mammals. In many cases it seems more prominent than what we have for our fellow man, or at least more prominently displayed.

i've never seen an inconsiderate pretentious self-centered and/or self-absorbed dog. cat maybe.

i don't think the phenomenon is odd. i just think humans are terrible people.

DAYoung
7th June 09, 06:51 AM
Those fuckers have a clear social agenda.

One of the funniest lines on chimps I've ever heard.

(Astonishing that it comes from Kein Haar, perhaps the unfunniest LEO since Captain Harris.)

MEGA JESUS-SAMA
7th June 09, 06:53 AM
None of you have seen a cat or dog torture something it's already caught?

Neildo
7th June 09, 06:58 AM
well of course, but nature can be cruel. example: the strangler fig.

and besides, they usually eat their prey after.

Kein Haar
7th June 09, 07:05 AM
Unless you're me, my sister, or Jane Goddall, I doubt you hear enough "lines on chimps" to make any basis of comparison.

You can't just decide you're versed in something one day and expect everyone to be all gehy for you. Especially regarding chimp violence, and especially with me around.

DAYoung
7th June 09, 07:12 AM
Unless you're me, my sister, or Jane Goddall, I doubt you hear enough "lines on chimps" to make any basis of comparison.

You can't just decide you're versed in something one day and expect everyone to be all gehy for you. Especially regarding chimp violence, and especially with me around.

Perhaps you've not read my last book, Chimp Jokes: The Complete Collection, with Annotated Historical, Literary, Economic, Psychological, Biological Analysis?

Kein Haar
7th June 09, 07:15 AM
I've been a subscriber to monkeywire, (http://monkeywire.org/) for years and I'm sure this would have come up.

Stop lying to make friends.

DAYoung
7th June 09, 07:17 AM
I've been a subscriber to monkeywire, (http://monkeywire.org/) for years and I'm sure this would have come up.

Stop lying to make friends.

It's an academic book, in pure Etruscan (Latin is for philistines). You wouldn't understand.

I DON'T NEED FRIENDS, I HAVE TRUTH.

Cullion
7th June 09, 07:19 AM
Yes. I'm guessing she's a victim herself, or has some seriously crossed wires.

People can become this way for a range of reasons. Sometimes simple neglect and lack of affection can produce a psychopath. Active childhood abuse or biological defects in the brain aren't necessary.

As to the morality of killing a kitten vs. livestock, I dunno about the US, but in the UK you'd get punished by the law for treating a farm animal like that too.

DAYoung
7th June 09, 07:24 AM
People can become this way for a range of reasons. Sometimes simple neglect and lack of affection can produce a psychopath. Active childhood abuse or biological defects in the brain aren't necessary.

Horrifying.


As to the morality of killing a kitten vs. livestock, I dunno about the US, but in the UK you'd get punished by the law for treating a farm animal like that too.

It's degrees, though. The slaughterhouse can also be a place of torture, but the horror is veiled by the consensus on what's 'fair game'. (Cows are, cats aren't.)

MEGA JESUS-SAMA
7th June 09, 07:24 AM
cruelty to animals is cruelty to animals, but i think livestock actually incur additional charges because they're expensive and used to stack dat paper

Kein Haar
7th June 09, 07:29 AM
It's an academic book, in pure Etruscan (Latin is for philistines). You wouldn't understand.

I DON'T NEED FRIENDS, I HAVE TRUTH.

You're overwrought.

It must get teh chix0rz or something.

Or it means teh ggay.

Possibly both.

If the second, please bring your monogomous relationship to my immediate neighborhood.

DAYoung
7th June 09, 07:33 AM
If the second, please bring your monogomous relationship to my immediate neighborhood.

Yes, it's a gun in my pocket.

(And by 'gun', I mean 'rifle'. It has rifling. Really.)

Kein Haar
7th June 09, 07:35 AM
I mean, keep "it" behind closed doors, but come admire my herb garden...and calves.

The old women around here are ok, but there's really no drive in them.

DAYoung
7th June 09, 07:44 AM
You had me at 'is there a problem, sir'.

Kein Haar
7th June 09, 07:55 AM
That makes no sense.

MEGA JESUS-SAMA
7th June 09, 07:58 AM
It's not difficult to get something past Officer Canophilia.

Cullion
7th June 09, 08:39 AM
It's degrees, though. The slaughterhouse can also be a place of torture, but the horror is veiled by the consensus on what's 'fair game'. (Cows are, cats aren't.)

Well, this is true. I don't think it's legal to sell dogs or cats for human consumption in the UK no matter how humanely you kill them.

What I meant was that if you killed a cow or lamb by locking it live in an oven so it burned to death whilst screaming and hammering to get out, you would also be subject to criminal prosecution here.

I wouldn't actually mind if people wanted to eat dogs here, but I'd want the killing to be swift, and most of the dogs life to be spent eating a reasonably natural diet, with plenty of space outside to roam in. They would probably taste better too.

Fearless Ukemi
7th June 09, 08:40 AM
It's not just cruelty to animals, this was somebody's pet. I'm sure the owner of this cat is very emotionally anguished at the moment.

Spade: The Real Snake
7th June 09, 11:20 AM
Everyone knows cats are Agents of Satan and Tools of the Devil.
She was doing The Lord's Work and needs to be Canonized.

Steve
7th June 09, 11:27 AM
Fuck you.

Spade: The Real Snake
7th June 09, 11:30 AM
Kneel before the stained-glass alter of St. Cheyenne of Cherries, heathen.

Shawarma
7th June 09, 11:35 AM
Stained with kitty blood, no doubt.

WarPhalange
7th June 09, 11:36 AM
It's certainly an odd phenomenom, this empathy we have for lower mammals. In many cases it seems more prominent than what we have for our fellow man, or at least more prominently displayed.

No, it's not odd at all. We associate lower animals with infants and children. That's why we care for puppies, kittens, etc. They basically remind us of baby humans. They look like them too, in some ways. Eyes don't grow after you're born. That's why babies look like they have huge eyes and it's the game with puppies and kittens. And them having the mental capacity of infants or small children just furthers the association.

This association itself is what is odd, though. It's entirely a social construct. We never used to care about pets like that, even 100 or so years ago.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat-burning

In my case at least, I do have more empathy for animals than "fellow" men. If my dog shits on the floor and I kick it, it has no idea what just happened. It can associate shitting on the floor with getting kicked in the gut, but it has no idea why or anything. It's like sticking your hand into a hole in the wall and being bitten. You don't know what the fuck just happened, but you're not going to do it again.

With a human, though, if I beat the shit out of one, they know why I'm doing it. Take little Ms. Bitch here. If I were to take a 2x4 to her head, she'd know the reason I'm doing it was because she was being cruel and sadistic (lol irony amirite?). While she's writhing in pain, she might even think about what she did, especially if I tell her why I'm doing it.

That's the entire difference in my mind. Hurting for the sake of hurting is bad. Hurting for punishment/revenge isn't as bad (I'd still be a dick for doing it, though). If they know why this is happening to them, it just feels like an actual punishment. Whereas hurting an animal that doesn't know why it's being hurt feels more like being sadistic.

Maybe it's just my mind that's messed up, though. Like, I don't get people who kill in revenge, especially some sort of car bomb or sniping. WTF, how is that revenge? If someone wrongs me, I want to get back at them and have them know that I'm doing it and why I'm doing it. Maiming is revenge. Killing a loved one is revenge (although that's too much for me). The entire point is having them know that I'm better than them.

Spade: The Real Snake
7th June 09, 11:37 AM
Stained with kitty blood, no doubt.
that is what he will be using for genuflection

HappyOldGuy
7th June 09, 11:49 AM
Horrifying.



It's degrees, though. The slaughterhouse can also be a place of torture, but the horror is veiled by the consensus on what's 'fair game'. (Cows are, cats aren't.)

Someday I am going to kill and eat Peter Singer.

Steve
7th June 09, 11:54 AM
It's certainly an odd phenomenom, this empathy we have for lower mammals. In many cases it seems more prominent than what we have for our fellow man, or at least more prominently displayed. It's part of what made the original Philip K Dick story behind Blade Runner so interesting, albeit in a different way to the film.

I think it is a bit about our identity and true innocence. You and I can believe that a human shouldn't deserve that but do we really know? Where as an animal, with no higher reasoning, is just unfortunately in the wrong place at the wrong time.

EuropIan
7th June 09, 12:07 PM
Does cat even taste good?

HappyOldGuy
7th June 09, 12:08 PM
Kitten is supposed to be barely edible, and cat not at all.

Puppy is supposed to be decent.

Steve
7th June 09, 12:08 PM
I would try it, as I would dog.

/Korean joke

EuropIan
7th June 09, 12:12 PM
I am sad to hear that cats are less enjoyable than dogs.


anyways bitch needs to have an ironic fate.

Such as becoming a reformed cat lady later in life, only to die all alone of old age...eaten by cats

Ajamil
7th June 09, 01:10 PM
It's certainly an odd phenomenom, this empathy we have for lower mammals. In many cases it seems more prominent than what we have for our fellow man, or at least more prominently displayed. It's part of what made the original Philip K Dick story behind Blade Runner so interesting, albeit in a different way to the film.
Aww, Poops beat me to it, bu I'd also add simplistic social understandings and lack of (or at least inferior) temporal understanding also allow us to ascribe to animals simple and thus noble intent. For instance.


i've never seen an inconsiderate pretentious self-centered and/or self-absorbed dog. cat maybe.

i don't think the phenomenon is odd. i just think humans are terrible people.

Cats think entirely of themselves - they are solitary animals and most of their social interaction involves "Get away from me." It's quite interesting the studies into why cats - not really domesticated - "put up" with so much human interaction.

Dogs, however, are primarily pack animals - they're fascists. If you're pack, you're loved; if you're not, you're a threat or a meal.

Edit: They've studied (http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2008/12/dogenvy/) and found dogs and other animals have a sense of "fairness."


The new study, published this week in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, is part of a growing body of research showing that many social animals, including dogs, wolves and marmosets, have emotions previously considered unique to humans.

Everyone knows cats are Agents of Satan and Tools of the Devil.
She was doing The Lord's Work and needs to be Canonized.

This was funny - and so very European of you. Cats are gods and we should all mourn by shaving our eyebrows.


Kitten is supposed to be barely edible, and cat not at all.

Puppy is supposed to be decent.

The Faces of Death guy said puppy was a sweet meat. Never heard from someone who's ever tasted cat - though I still think people should look into a market in the US, we've got enough of em just wandering around. (Not that it'd ever catch on, but it's fun to troll with.)

Edit of the 2: Cats "play" with their food for several reasons -

- they like to hit hard and back off, protecting delicate facial features
- batting at quick moving objects is instinctual ("it's the getting, not the having")
- if young, they're still learning to hunt
- the desire to hunt is incredible, and cats often do so with no evidence of hunger. They have been seen catching and killing prey, only to stop and pause as if confused as to what to do next, then wander away.

JohnnyCache
7th June 09, 01:51 PM
Seriously, while torturing small animals isn't a good thing, pets are about exactly as complex and sentient as the animals we eat every day for snacks.

Tanhalen21
7th June 09, 03:18 PM
Well, as usual, you dumb fucks have dissected this incident into a pile of worthless philosophical bullshit sprinkled with trite, self-important "look how original my thinking is because I disagree with the status quo" nonsense.

Any time a person puts an animal in an oven and cooks it alive, it is fucked up. Most people don't know exactly how livestock are slaughtered, and I'm sure it is gruesome and probably inhumane, but I'm also pretty sure that if the news was released that they were killed by being baked alive in an oven, most people would be horrified.

Except those who would put a cat in the oven while it was still alive.

bob
7th June 09, 04:19 PM
How many of you eat bacon or ham? Pigs are supposed to be way smarter and more emotionally complex than cats. I realise eating an animal is different to wanton cruelty towards it but I'm just interested.

HappyOldGuy
7th June 09, 04:24 PM
Any time a person puts an animal in an oven and cooks it alive, it is fucked up. Most people don't know exactly how livestock are slaughtered, and I'm sure it is gruesome and probably inhumane, but I'm also pretty sure that if the news was released that they were killed by being baked alive in an oven, most people would be horrified.

Lobster is often cooked alive.

Hell, I've eaten alive seafood.

I am a sociopath, but I'm a well behaved one.

Tanhalen21
7th June 09, 05:16 PM
Lobster is often cooked alive.

Hell, I've eaten alive seafood.

I am a sociopath, but I'm a well behaved one.
I think people have a hard time relating to invertebrates in general, but I personally think cooking a lobster alive is pretty cruel.

Also, there is strong evidence that lobsters don't feel pain due to their simple nervous system.

Kein Haar
8th June 09, 06:56 AM
Seriously, while torturing small animals isn't a good thing, pets are about exactly as complex and sentient as the animals we eat every day for snacks.

Intent.

Knowing so-and-so is culturally and subjectively attached to this particular species and representative...logical or not

Knowing the degree of empathy regarding said animal...logical or not

And intentionally bestowing a process upon the thing which, by human standards, would really be quite fucking miserable...

And doing it for the purpose of fucking with the human....

And certainly knowing that aversive stimuli exists in all animals....

That's what makes her a cunt.

Ajamil
8th June 09, 10:21 AM
Also, there is strong evidence that lobsters don't feel pain due to their simple nervous system.
Didn't that go to court in the US? I think the ruling was in line with what you wrote.

Couldn't find a court case, but I did find studies that disprove the lobsters =/= pain.

MSNBC (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29915025/)

Elwood and Appel gave small electric shocks to some of the crabs within their shells. When the researchers provided vacant shells, some crabs — but only the ones that had been shocked —left their old shells and entered the new ones, showing stress-related behaviors like grooming of the abdomen or rapping of the abdomen against the empty shell. Grooming, as for a person licking a burnt finger, "is a protective motor reaction and viewed as a sign of pain in vertebrates," the researchers wrote.
It has been thought that the behavior of crustaceans is mostly reflexive, but the fact that they showed signs of physical distress at the same time they changed a behavior — in this case, moving into another shell — suggest they feel pain as well, according to the researchers.

(http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-492557/Claws-concern-Scientists-suggest-prawns-lobsters-feel-pain-just-like-humans.html)
Daily Mail (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-492557/Claws-concern-Scientists-suggest-prawns-lobsters-feel-pain-just-like-humans.html)


Scientists at Queen's University in Belfast claim to have shown that prawns feel pain - and as prawns are basically just small lobsters, the inference is that their larger cousins do, too.
What Dr Robert Elwood and his colleagues did was ingenious.
They rubbed acetic acid, the key constituent of vinegar, on to a prawn's long antennae, and found that the animals reacted by vigorously rubbing and grooming the feelers for up to five minutes.
The implication being that the prawns were suffering, or at least irritated, and they were trying to wipe the stuff off.
This, says Dr Elwood, is "consistent with the interpretation of pain experience".

And a nice write-up on the "current standing" from Canada's Parliment (http://www.parl.gc.ca/37/2/parlbus/commbus/senate/Com-e/lega-e/witn-e/shelly-e.htm)





Do Invertebrates Feel Pain?

Invertebrates are classically defined as animals, which lack a’ backbone’ or dorsal nerve cord1, such as insects, crustacea (e.g. shrimp, lobster and crab), and molluscs (e.g. clams, snails, and squid). Traditionally, these animals have not been included in legislation concerning cruelty to animals2.
Pain is defined by the International Association for the Study of Pain (IASP) as “An unpleasant sensory and emotional experience associated with actual or potential tissue damage or described in terms of such damage”3. The subjective, emotional component of pain is considered its important aspect, not the activation of pain sensors (nociceptors) in the body. The IASP makes this clear “Activity induced in the nociceptive pathways by a noxious stimulus is not pain, which is always a psychological state, even though we may appreciate that pain most often has a proximate physical cause”3. In other words, the only animals capable of feeling pain are those that can feel fear, anxiety, distress and terror, similar to what humans feel when we receive noxious stimuli.
Almost all organisms, including bacteria, will attempt to escape from an aversive stimulus4. Because bacteria are not thought to be capable of feeling pain (e.g. they lack a nervous system), possessing an escape response to an aversive stimulus is not enough evidence to demonstrate that a species is capable of feeling pain. To infer that a non-human vertebrate (mammals, birds and reptiles) is in pain, researchers rely on the vocalizations and physiological responses (e.g. the release of stress hormones) that an animal produces when faced with an aversive stimulus2. Because these responses are similar to our own when we are in pain, researchers argue that, by analogy, animals showing these responses are also in pain2. This technique cannot be used with invertebrates. Invertebrate physiology is different from our own1. The invertebrates diverged from that of vertebrates hundreds of millions of years ago1.
Scientists have used three lines of reasoning to assess the likelihood that invertebrates are capable of feeling pain5.

The evolutionary function of pain
The neural capacity of invertebrates
The behaviour of invertebrates 1. The evolutionary function of pain.
In vertebrates pain is thought to be an important educational tool6. Vertebrates are relatively long-lived creatures and learning shapes much of their behaviour. Learning from pain (and pleasure) plays a vital role in the development of their behaviour6.
Almost all invertebrates are short-lived and their behaviour is thought to be largely genetically determined7. Therefore, there is less evolutionary pressure selecting for the evolution of pain in this group of animals6.

2. The neural capacity of invertebrates.
Except for the cephalopods, invertebrates have small nervous systems, consisting of many small brains (ganglia). Because of the small number of neurons and the distributed organization of their nervous systems, invertebrates are thought to have limited cognitive capacity6. High cognitive capacity is thought to be a prerequisite for the development of an emotional response6.

3. The behaviour of invertebrates
Invertebrates show few, if any, of the behaviours that we would recognize as evidence of emotion6. Many invertebrates are cannibalistic, and many eat their young when given the chance. Most have no social behaviour. Although they can respond vigorously to noxious stimuli, even this response is inconsistent. Insects, for example, will continue with normal activity even after severe injury. An insect walking with a crushed tarsus (lower leg) will continue applying it to the ground with undiminished force. Locusts will writhe when sprayed with DDT. However, they will also continue feeding while being eaten by a praying mantid6.

Cephalopods

Cephalopods are sometimes given special status by animal care committees (e.g. CCAC) because they have a large, vertebrate-like central nervous system, which is about the same size as that of a fish8. In the United Kingdom these animals have some legal protection, however in the United States they do not.
Although they have large brains, all the coleoid cephalopods (squid, octopus and cuttlefish) have short lifespans8. Most live less than one year. There is no parental care8. The absence of parental care suggests that most of their behaviour is genetically determined (i.e. they must be able to hunt, hide from predators, communicate etc. without instruction by others of their species). They are capable of learning, but their abilities are sometimes greater, sometimes less than that of fish8,9. Most are highly cannibalistic, even the schooling squid. We know nothing about their hormonal response to stress, and therefore we cannot determine whether they have a physiological response that resembles ours when confronted by aversive stimuli. We understand very little about their visual communication system and, therefore, we do not know whether they make any ‘pain-specific’ signals. Given our three criteria above, we have very little evidence that these animals feel pain. Nevertheless, it is possible that as we learn more about them, we may find evidence suggesting that they are capable of feeling pain.

Conclusions

Although it is impossible to know the subjective experience of another animal with certainty, the balance of the evidence suggests that most invertebrates do not feel pain. The evidence is most robust for insects, and, for these animals, the consensus is that they do not feel pain6.
References
1. Brusca R and Brusca G. 2002. The Invertebrates. 2nd edition. Sinauer.
2. Animal Behaviour Society, 2003. Anim. Behav. 65: 649-655
3. International Association for the Study of Pain. www.iasp-pain.org/terms-p.html (http://www.iasp-pain.org/terms-p.html)
4. Berg, H 1975. Nature. 254: 389-392
5. Sherwin, C 2001. Anim. Welfare. 10: S103-S118
6. Eisemann C et al. 1984. Experientia 40: 164-167
7. Drickamer L et al. 2001. Animal Behavior: Mechanisms, Ecology and Evolution. 5th edition. McGraw-Hill.
8. Hanlon R and Messenger J 1996. Cephalopod Behaviour, Cambridge Univ. Press.
9. Boal J et al. 2000. Behav. Processes. 52: 141-153

Zendetta
8th June 09, 12:30 PM
Someday I am going to kill and eat Peter Singer.

Can I have the liver? I want to make some Pate de Bourgoisie.


Does cat even taste good?

*insert cunnilingus joke*

EuropIan
8th June 09, 12:48 PM
Oh! you!

mrblackmagic
9th June 09, 12:36 PM
I'm not sold on the whole animal rights thing.

It's more about standards than anything. In western culture, dogs and cats are traditionally pets (their also pariah and scavengers so they probably taste like shit). As a result, people to tend to view them differently for that reason. Also, they can emote so they tend to get anthropomorphized than other creatures.

Funny story. When I was in elementary school, my parents hosted Japanese exchange students. They went to a seafood restaurant on one of their outings. As the story was related to me, the students were offered boiled crawfish in Japan crawfish are pets. However, they could not refuse a gift. So these kids are crying, but they're eating the crawfish anyway. I ate those things by the pound my whole life and thought nothing of it.

That being said. I'm not fit to say what is decent "human" behavior, but from a legal and social standpoint. Cheyenne destroyed somebody else's "property" in a very uncouth manner and she needs to get psychological treatment because her behavior has the potential to escalate.

Mas
9th June 09, 12:46 PM
I'm not sold on the whole animal rights thing.

It's more about standards than anything. In western culture, dogs and cats are traditionally pets (their also pariah and scavengers so they probably taste like shit). As a result, people to tend to view them differently for that reason. Also, they can emote so they tend to get anthropomorphized than other creatures.

Funny story. When I was in elementary school, my parents hosted Japanese exchange students. They went to a seafood restaurant on one of their outings. As the story was related to me, the students were offered boiled crawfish in Japan crawfish are pets. However, they could not refuse a gift. So these kids are crying, but they're eating the crawfish anyway. I ate those things by the pound my whole life and thought nothing of it.

That being said. I'm not fit to say what is decent "human" behavior, but from a legal and social standpoint. Cheyenne destroyed somebody else's "property" in a very uncouth manner and she needs to get psychological treatment because her behavior has the potential to escalate.
There is a difference between animal rights and animal welfare.

Animals, if they are going to be eaten, should always killed in the fastest and least painful way possible. They should also live in the least stressful, most comfortabe areas possible (that is both economically viable and sustainable). This even means that the smarter the animal the more comfortable the living until they are butchered (not using the word for any connotations). This has to happen from regulation and enforcement (gasp!)

There is a certain kind of respect that goes with good animal welfare.

Antifa
9th June 09, 01:04 PM
Intent.

Knowing so-and-so is culturally and subjectively attached to this particular species and representative...logical or not

Knowing the degree of empathy regarding said animal...logical or not

And intentionally bestowing a process upon the thing which, by human standards, would really be quite fucking miserable...

And doing it for the purpose of fucking with the human....

And certainly knowing that aversive stimuli exists in all animals....

That's what makes her a cunt.

Today...

Today is that day.

where I agree with KH.

Fearless Ukemi
9th June 09, 01:15 PM
I think people have a hard time relating to invertebrates in general, but I personally think cooking a lobster alive is pretty cruel.

Also, there is strong evidence that lobsters don't feel pain due to their simple nervous system.


Having cooked a few lobsters and crabs in my day, I can tell you they absolutely do feel pain. They scream and I you gotta close the lid fast because I have seen some literally jump out as soon as they touch the water. Not physically possible, but they do.

But they die quick, it isn't like we put them in cold water and let it heat up and gradually come to a boil.

Kein Haar
9th June 09, 01:18 PM
Today...

Today is that day.

where I agree with KH.

It's not that you disagree with me, it's that you disagree with objective reality.

Our opinions are probably pretty similar.

You just have a hard time accepting how things are.

Antifa
9th June 09, 01:19 PM
It's not that you disagree with me, it's that you disagree with objective reality.

Our opinions are probably pretty similar.

You just have a hard time accepting how things [I]are.[/[I]

Have and enjoy your moment.

Dont gloat or count coup

It's unbecoming.

Kein Haar
9th June 09, 01:22 PM
If whatever happened or, if so-and-so said that or that......I'd be coming too....

::losing steam:::

Antifa
9th June 09, 01:29 PM
If whatever happened or, if so-and-so said that or that......I'd be coming too....

::losing steam:::

missed a spot on your chin sweetie

http://www.splendicity.com/makeupminute/files/2009/01/kleenex.jpg

Adouglasmhor
9th June 09, 01:29 PM
Having cooked a few lobsters and crabs in my day, I can tell you they absolutely do feel pain. They scream and I you gotta close the lid fast because I have seen some literally jump out as soon as they touch the water. Not physically possible, but they do.

But they die quick, it isn't like we put them in cold water and let it heat up and gradually come to a boil.

They don't feel it or react if you do that.

HappyOldGuy
9th June 09, 01:31 PM
They don't feel it or react if you do that.

Or at least the lid is already on when they do, so the screams are muffled.

Adouglasmhor
9th June 09, 01:37 PM
possibly they deoxygenate at the same time as the water and die that way, I admit it's more often crabs than lobsters I cook, same with mussels plus you know that way the ones that do not open are tainted.

Tanhalen21
9th June 09, 01:37 PM
Having cooked a few lobsters and crabs in my day, I can tell you they absolutely do feel pain. They scream and I you gotta close the lid fast because I have seen some literally jump out as soon as they touch the water. Not physically possible, but they do.


I guess you haven't heard that that "scream" is not a scream but is the sound of steam escaping the shell, making a whistling sound.

Also, the violent reaction is most likely a simple reflex reaction to noxious stimuli. It doesn't mean they feel pain.

EuropIan
9th June 09, 02:07 PM
I thought they died almost instantly.

OZZ
9th June 09, 02:51 PM
I hope this bitch and her loser boyfriend die slow, horrible deaths.

WarPhalange
9th June 09, 02:55 PM
Boiled alive?

OZZ
9th June 09, 03:01 PM
That would be good..but I would want to beat on them and break some bones for a day or so first.

Fearless Ukemi
9th June 09, 03:02 PM
I guess you haven't heard that that "scream" is not a scream but is the sound of steam escaping the shell, making a whistling sound.

Sounds logical to me, I can accept that.


Also, the violent reaction is most likely a simple reflex reaction to noxious stimuli. It doesn't mean they feel pain.

So what would you call the stimulus if it isn't pain? I'm not sure I buy that.

Ajamil
10th June 09, 11:06 AM
Sounds logical to me, I can accept that.



So what would you call the stimulus if it isn't pain? I'm not sure I buy that.

Uhm, I just posted the recent studies on this. Sheesh.

Fearless Ukemi
10th June 09, 11:53 AM
Scientists at Queen's University in Belfast claim to have shown that prawns feel pain - and as prawns are basically just small lobsters, the inference is that their larger cousins do, too.
What Dr Robert Elwood and his colleagues did was ingenious.
They rubbed acetic acid, the key constituent of vinegar, on to a prawn's long antennae, and found that the animals reacted by vigorously rubbing and grooming the feelers for up to five minutes.
The implication being that the prawns were suffering, or at least irritated, and they were trying to wipe the stuff off.
This, says Dr Elwood, is "consistent with the interpretation of pain experience".

"The implication being that the prawns were suffering, or at least irritated"

"consistent with the interpretation of pain experience"

Sounds like a really cheesy way of saying pain. Suffering and pain aren't too distinct from each other.

When I said

So what would you call the stimulus if it isn't pain? I'm not sure I buy that.

I wanted to hear your take on it, not a regurgitation of what you already posted.

Ajamil
10th June 09, 01:55 PM
I see so little distinction between "reacting to aversive stimuli" and "pain" that I think trying to find the distinction is just another way of trying to make humans someting special and apart from the rest of life. It's justifying a double standard. We've been pushing back and expanding what we consider having the special sacredness of life since Jews were wondering if other races had souls and Colonials were equating Africans with work-horses.

Anything with life has the desire to continue that life. It's unfortunate but almost completely universal that life subsists on other lives. From there we each have to decide what our morality on the subject is.

Zendetta
10th June 09, 02:01 PM
Anything with life has the desire to continue that life. It's unfortunate but almost completely universal that life subsists on other lives. From there we each have to decide what our morality on the subject is.

How can it be "unfortunate" if its the only way it can be?

Are you sure you aren't just having a samskara-reaction to the Kali side of life?

Ajamil
10th June 09, 02:07 PM
Alright, let me change unfortunate to "I don't like it." I think we use those terms a little differently, but I'm pretty sure I know what you mean.

EuropIan
10th June 09, 02:24 PM
THIS. IS. NECESSARY.
THIS. IS. NECESSARY.
LIFE. FEEDS ON LIFE. FEEDS ON LIFE. FEEDS ON LIFE.

EuropIan
10th June 09, 02:25 PM
(but bitches burning cats are still cunts.)