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Lebell
4th June 09, 02:19 PM
What the FUCK is Obama on?

today he spouted crap like: 'Europe should allow Turkey to enter the union.'

w00t??? and get 70 million muslims within our borders?
what the hell is he talking about? he spazzes about some thousands of mexicans yet we can take up 70 million turks?!
GTFO.

Obama: ' Muslims shouldnt be discriminated against and they should have more freedom to practise their faith how they see fit.'

yes what were we thinking?! i mean just look at the middle east, that shiny beacon of democracy and tolerance!
their flouricing healthcare systems! the lack of mass unemployment and the very advanced rights of minorities!


President Dhimmi also made sure to state that he has a deep respect for Islam.

I hope this prick gets hit by a car.
what a incredibly dumb asshole.
This idiocy will only give out the wrong signal to the extremists: we are scared of you, we will do whatever the hell you like just stop fighting us....pwease?

I'm deeply dissapointed with Obama and i rather would have had the hawks back in foreign affairs.

Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8082676.stm

Fearless Ukemi
4th June 09, 02:23 PM
Don't be talkin trash bout my prezdint

WarPhalange
4th June 09, 02:23 PM
Needs a source. Don't care if this is on every station right now, you still need a valid link.

HappyOldGuy
4th June 09, 02:34 PM
Lebell=racist. Ban plz.

Lebell
4th June 09, 02:50 PM
it was on dutch news when he was adressing the dudes in Cairo.
hang on ill find a link and edit it into this post.

here we go:http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8082676.stm

Lebell
4th June 09, 02:53 PM
Lebell=racist. Ban plz.

zomg racism?! where?

someone non caucasian cant be an idiot?

happyoldguy=racist!

Spade: The Real Snake
4th June 09, 03:01 PM
I thought you Euros *liked* him.

WarPhalange
4th June 09, 03:04 PM
Only the German ones, apparently. Those Germans have a long history of multiracial and multicultural tolerance and diversity, after all.

EuropIan
4th June 09, 03:06 PM
I thought you Euros *liked* him.
That's because europe is a huge monolithic entity.

Like America.

Spade: The Real Snake
4th June 09, 03:08 PM
Hey, any of you Euros ever run into this guy I know.....short little Italian cat named Guiseppe?
You know him. don't you Ian?

WarPhalange
4th June 09, 03:10 PM
That's because europe is a huge monolithic entity.

Like America.

Thanks, we do have large penises. How did you know?

Ajamil
4th June 09, 03:12 PM
Is Turkey considered part of Europe? Can an Asian country join the EU? It seems wrong for some reason.

Aphid Jones
4th June 09, 03:13 PM
Turkey is way more modernized than other Islamic countries. And NATO has been hangin with the Turks since right after WWII.

It's not out of the realm of reason.

WarPhalange
4th June 09, 03:14 PM
Looks like nobody likes the Armenians these days. Even SoaD split up, although "temporarily".

EuropIan
4th June 09, 03:20 PM
Thanks, we do have large penises. How did you know?
Look, we both have large penises.

friends?



Hey, any of you Euros ever run into this guy I know.....short little Italian cat named Guiseppe?
You know him. don't you Ian?
of course I do..

Europe is really just 5 different people who have lots of costumes.

kracker
4th June 09, 03:21 PM
Fuck em, they can admit their past mistakes and be considered a civilized country or they let their historical revisionist assclowns deny the Armenian Genocide up and down. Clearly they have made their choice and should hence continue to be a third world goat fucking nation.

Shawarma
4th June 09, 03:36 PM
See that row of orange boxes under your handle, kracker? You earned them.

Nobody gives a shit about dead Armenians. European politicians simply dig up their corpses to parade around because it's a nicer sounding excuse for not wanting Turkey to join the EU than "they're a bunch of niggers!" Things that happened close to a century ago are irrelevant today, in the world of international politics. Many Japanese still honour their veterans from the war in China where they bayoneted babies and raped women, but I don't hear you crying like a little faggotass about Japan being a nation of uncivilised heathens.

More proof of your ass-retardedness is that Turkey isn't even a 3rd world country by today's standards. It's not up to Northern European levels, but it is far too industrialised, democratic and well educated to be considered 3rd world. All Muslim countries aren't Afghanistan, ye great pillock.

Turkey should not be allowed to join the EU for purely economic reasons - They don't really have much to contribute to the union and with the high unemployment and poor wages in Turkey, there would be hordes of immigrants at Lebell's doorstep, many of them being actual uneducated goatfuckers from rural Turkey who would only put a strain on the social services on whereever they landed.

If Obama is so keen on having Turkey become part of a union, he can invite them to join the United States instead of making policy on behalf of his allies.

KO'd N DOA
4th June 09, 03:37 PM
Istabul should go back to Constantinople, then we might be onto something.

Obama is awesome. Islam will become the 51st state.

Cullion
4th June 09, 03:40 PM
Is Turkey considered part of Europe? Can an Asian country join the EU? It seems wrong for some reason.

That's debated inside Europe. Most people roughly think of Europe as encompassing the same geographic area a mediaeval person would call 'Christendom'. Turkey kind of moved in and out of that category.

The concerns Lebell expresses about a massive wave of Islamic immigration are pretty common. Countries within the EU have very open borders and residency/working rights between each other. My limited personal experience of turkish people in the UK is that they seem more western in outlook than migrants from islamic countries further south or east. They're more likely to drink alcohol or smoke and less likely to go completely apeshit if a turkish woman has a non-turkish/non-muslim boyfriend.

Turkey is also a pretty popular, and generally thought of as a safe and friendly, holiday destination by Brits.

There is apparently some kind of particular rivalry between turkish and black youth in London. No idea what it's about.

Zendetta
4th June 09, 03:46 PM
Islam will become the 51st state.

We call it Saudi-Israelia. Its nice if you like hot".


There is apparently some kind of particular rivalry between turkish and black youth in London. No idea what it's about.

Basic human instincts towards tribalism I suppose.

In California, its Black vs Mexican.

MaverickZ
4th June 09, 03:47 PM
Nobody gives a shit about dead Armenians.
:(

HappyOldGuy
4th June 09, 03:58 PM
If Obama is so keen on having Turkey become part of a union, he can invite them to join the United States instead of making policy on behalf of his allies.

In fairness, he didn't say anything really different than almost every European head of state says publicly.

Everyone says they should be able to join, because saying otherwise would be racist. It's just a question whether you want to set the standards at high, ridiculously high, or impossibly high.

Cullion
4th June 09, 04:02 PM
Everyone says they should be able to join, because saying otherwise would be racist.

I don't think you understand what EU membership actually involves.

bob
4th June 09, 04:05 PM
AIUI the Americans feel a debt to the Turks for hanging with them against the commies, with all the dirtiness that entailed. I remember a Greek Cypriot telling me about her childhood recently when the Turks were bombing them with American planes and arms. woot.

HappyOldGuy
4th June 09, 04:06 PM
I don't think you understand what EU membership actually involves.

I'm not sure what you mean. I have seen lots of opposition to Turkey joining the EU, but heads of state almost always phrase it in the form of, "Of course Turkey should join, once {impossible conditions 1, 2, and 3} are met." That was the only point I was making. And nothing Obama said was any different. He was having and eating his cake the same way all the EU heads of state do.

Lebell
4th June 09, 04:10 PM
my problems with turkey in the union isnt about (all) the turks, im sure most of them are okay enough people.

the problem is economic and religious.
if they'd get within the union, we are all fucked, vast amounts of uneducated tribalists will swarm all over the places fucking things up, and to be honest i feel, and many many europeans with me that we have had more then enough of our islamic fellow countrymen.

its not an ernrichment, we have no go areas full with satelite dishes, homegrown jihadists and we get islam religious crap shoved through our throats on a daily bases on tv.
there isnt a goddamn day i can switch on the tv and not see some veiled up bitch or bearded freak yapping on a talkshow about how we should respect islam more and be more tolerant.

i always say: you first.
where's the respect for christianity? judaism etc.

islam as a political force is the natural nemesis of a free and humane life where one can develop oneself into the person one wants to be.

any form of making apologies for them or saying that they really mean well etc. is crap.
the people are people, most just want to live life, but the islam itself wants to conquer.
read a fucking book, dont take my word on it.

btw i got the tv on right now and the rightwinged party of geert wilers (i call him mozart boy), the guy who made the fitna movie, is now probably the second biggest party in Lolland.
they just became the second party in the dutch elections for the europarlemantarees.

Cullion
4th June 09, 04:10 PM
Oh I see HoG, fair enough.

Lebell
4th June 09, 04:14 PM
I'm not sure what you mean. I have seen lots of opposition to Turkey joining the EU, but heads of state almost always phrase it in the form of, "Of course Turkey should join, once {impossible conditions 1, 2, and 3} are met." That was the only point I was making. And nothing Obama said was any different. He was having and eating his cake the same way all the EU heads of state do.

the main point of that part was that Obama needs to shut his goddamn mouth about who should join the union.


the biggest fuck up he made was his little bitch ass speech about respect for the islam yadda yadda yadda.
that is a sign of weakness in their eyes.

what idiots are advising Obama?!

HappyOldGuy
4th June 09, 04:24 PM
the main point of that part was that Obama needs to shut his goddamn mouth about who should join the union.


the biggest fuck up he made was his little bitch ass speech about respect for the islam yadda yadda yadda.
that is a sign of weakness in their eyes.

what idiots are advising Obama?!

Well, shooting em, bombing em, calling them barbarians, teaching em to breathe water, etc hasn't been working out so well. So maybe he figured, "hey, let's try something different for a change."

Really Lebell, you are one of my favorite trolls, but when you talk about politics you make me doubt the future of the species.

f4n4n
4th June 09, 04:27 PM
I have to admit that I am with Lebell on this one.
Germany has the largest amount of Turks outside of turkey and until the countries and the EU itself have found a way to successfully integrate those people, I am not going to think this is a good idea, not for them and no way for the EU.
I mean just look at the failed integration here in Germany, Berlin or Cologne, ghettos, social hot spots, kids who are not able to speak either German nor Turkish. No perspective in Germany or Turkey, not considered home in either of the countries.
It is almost 50 years since the first people came here and look, the problem is still not overcome. And I don't see it happening anytime soon.
I am not talking about other problems, that their religion causes. As lebell pointed out, there is the tendency to force believes and other things onto others and scream discrimination when it is not accepted.
Then there is the economical standpoint...
then we have the US rockets and army bases in Turkey which is the main reason why Ohholybama is for this but it is kind of against EU Rules.
Oh and then there is still the Cypris issue that needs to be solved.


I say there are currently way more reasons to not let them in than to do so.

The EU is more than just a name tag...

Shawarma
4th June 09, 04:29 PM
In fairness, he didn't say anything really different than almost every European head of state says publicly.

Everyone says they should be able to join, because saying otherwise would be racist. It's just a question whether you want to set the standards at high, ridiculously high, or impossibly high.
Incorrect. The idea of Turkey joining is not very popular.

Lebell
4th June 09, 04:34 PM
Well, shooting em, bombing em, calling them barbarians, teaching em to breathe water, etc hasn't been working out so well. So maybe he figured, "hey, let's try something different for a change."

wrong.
the things you just listed are half assed attempts.
yes they shoot at em, but only under the convention of geneve, yeah they bomb em but half assed god forbid for civilian casualties (name me one war without them btw).

The different approach would be this: bring justice, not political games. but with the justice also state that enough is enough and if the truce is broken its on for real.
the conflicts the allied forces are in can be won, its a stalemate because the allied countries chose to be humane towards their enemies.
which is stupid, any war is like a fight to the death, applying rules is retarded, you should do whatever it takes to win.


Really Lebell, you are one of my favorite trolls, but when you talk about politics you make me doubt the future of the species.

you are one of my favorite trolls too.
i am the future old guy.
look at me and mai toight body.
im the future and im right.

Lebell
4th June 09, 04:35 PM
you see the turks have been trying to ' join' us since the 16th century.
they came as far as vienna.

Shawarma
4th June 09, 04:35 PM
Lebell, the religion of the Turks is not really the issue. They're the least superinsane Muslims around, except for perhaps the Malay. Stupidity, unemployment and ghettofication is the problem. This is a problem already in many areas and would get ten times worse if you opened the floodgates to every Turk too stupid or lazy to get a decent job in Turkey.
Remember: You generally only leave your Vaterland if you can't make a living locally. Therefore, most of the Turks we get up here aren't exactly the top of the class. It's different with people like the Iranians - A lot of the real clever ones left Iran for political reasons, so you rarely hear of problems with them.

HappyOldGuy
4th June 09, 04:37 PM
you see the turks have been trying to ' join' us since the 16th century.
they came as far as vienna.

And gave you the croissant. Fucking ingrates.

f4n4n
4th June 09, 04:41 PM
Yes yes their religion is a problem, one amongst many.
I just think of how this woman, being a teacher came to class with a headscarf. She said it is her personal religious freedom, problem is, school in most states is free of religion (besides the optional religion classes) and there she was parading her believes all over. And then she said it would be discrimination to tell her to stop that act.
There are people in Germany who made an effort to integrate and their families as well, they worked hard and some of them made it. But it is a fact that female immigrants/their female kids have a way below average education and usually end up working minimum wage jobs if at all...

Lebell
4th June 09, 04:42 PM
Lebell, the religion of the Turks is not really the issue. They're the least superinsane Muslims around, except for perhaps the Malay. Stupidity, unemployment and ghettofication is the problem. This is a problem already in many areas and would get ten times worse if you opened the floodgates to every Turk too stupid or lazy to get a decent job in Turkey.
Remember: You generally only leave your Vaterland if you can't make a living locally. Therefore, most of the Turks we get up here aren't exactly the top of the class. It's different with people like the Iranians - A lot of the real clever ones left Iran for political reasons, so you rarely hear of problems with them.

i understand what you are saying but i add religion to the problem.

Islam in its teachings enables the poor to stay poor yet still feel superior to people who are not muslims.
Islam enables a mindset that can become very destructive.

Even Christians had the crusades inquisition etc while their teachings of jesus clearly state that is wrong.
Still they did it, now if you have a holy book that states its pretty much okay to wage war on infadels what you reckon will happen?

this is by far not just a social economic problem.

Shawarma
4th June 09, 04:43 PM
Why is a teacher with poor dress sense a problem?

Spade: The Real Snake
4th June 09, 04:44 PM
This reminds me of the M.A.S.H. episode with the Turk and Greek fighting

HappyOldGuy
4th June 09, 04:45 PM
Why is a teacher with poor dress sense a problem?

Because her religion prohibits her from going out in public naked, so every time she wears clothes she is inflicting her religious beliefs on others.

f4n4n
4th June 09, 04:45 PM
Told you, separation of church and state... can't teach kids and display your religion, it is stated in the "Grundgesetz" and she signed a fucking contract when she got the job, saying the same fucking thing, yet she did it and went to court with that nonsens.
And this is just one case... people asking for changes in biology and sexual education because of their religion. Shit adds up and leads to more shit.

Shawarma
4th June 09, 04:47 PM
I would agree with that if these people were not Turks, Lebell. Turks are Khemalists rather than Muslims and I have found them to be reasonable people, although reasonable people in need of severe assbeatings at times to quiet their huge annoying egos.

Your posts reek of OMG MUSLIMS AIIIIIIE and I disagree with your views on their holy book.

The Islamic religion will only become a major immigration problem if the more radical mullahs had the good sense to set up viable political parties and be able to bullshit Muslims into voting for them. That's a good 10% of the vote right there.

HappyOldGuy
4th June 09, 04:47 PM
So she should be forced to go naked?

You sure you want all that untended woodlands parading about in public?

Shawarma
4th June 09, 04:48 PM
Then I won't disagree, Anal. You sign a contract to not dress like a 1920ies housewife, you adhere to it.

Lebell
4th June 09, 04:50 PM
we had those idiots over here too.
wont shake hands with the opposite sex.

muslim men get violent against doctors at the hospital and demand female doctors for their wives.
there are already theaters with seperate seating areas, one for men, one for women and a local cityhall has sexdivided counters.

still people say they dont want to take over, i agree, most of them are too lazy for that, they want to push on us their ways and we can do all the work for them.

thanks to all the left winged idiots this has a pretty good chance of succes.

people who say: a headscarf is like wearing a christian cross.

why yes, if the cross is so retardedly big that you cant look around it, then i guess it is.

f4n4n
4th June 09, 04:51 PM
So she should be forced to go naked?

You sure you want all that untended woodlands parading about in public?
Quit your lame trolling idiot.
Head scarf =!= clothing!
Please run into upcoming traffic.

Lebell
4th June 09, 04:53 PM
I would agree with that if these people were not Turks, Lebell. Turks are Khemalists rather than Muslims and I have found them to be reasonable people, although reasonable people in need of severe assbeatings at times to quiet their huge annoying egos.

i already covered this, see above posts.
nuttshell: ofcourse most are reasonable people, its the mechanism behind it thats very risky and dangerous.




Your posts reek of OMG MUSLIMS AIIIIIIE and I disagree with your views on their holy book.

Thats okay, you are allowed to disagree with me.
im also glad i can critisise islam without being tracked down by the secret police and get my balls electrocuted.:-)


The Islamic religion will only become a major immigration problem if the more radical mullahs had the good sense to set up viable political parties and be able to bullshit Muslims into voting for them. That's a good 10% of the vote right there.

its happening dude.
so far unsuccesful but eventually in the near future this is what we will be facing.

Shawarma
4th June 09, 04:57 PM
I'm actually surprised the idea hasn't caught on more. I wonder why - Most likely because Muslims can't actually agree on anything regarding religion or culture.

KO'd N DOA
4th June 09, 04:57 PM
Turkish Delight!...mmmmm

The Spanish Queen solved the problem of immigration years ago. Most European countries have royalty with genetic ties to her... don't be so lazy, be who you really are.

Shawarma
4th June 09, 04:58 PM
By killing a shitload of Jews and taking their stuff, you mean?

HappyOldGuy
4th June 09, 05:03 PM
Head scarf =!= clothing!

What is it then, a herring?

You win the dumb olympics! Congrats!

f4n4n
4th June 09, 05:05 PM
It is a freaking accessory. Like my camera, I can go with out it, but it makes me look cool and hip. She can go without the head scarf, have no problem, same thing.
It is not like she is freezing in the classroom or anything like that.
Stop trolling!

HappyOldGuy
4th June 09, 05:14 PM
It is a freaking accessory. Like my camera, I can go with out it, but it makes me look cool and hip. She can go without the head scarf, have no problem, same thing.
It is not like she is freezing in the classroom or anything like that.
Stop trolling!

I'm not trolling. You're just an ignorant bigot.

Clothing is primarily about modesty standards for everyone. The issue is that her standards are different than yours. For her, forcing her to have her hair uncovered is the same as forcing someone else to wear a thong to class.

Lebell
4th June 09, 05:19 PM
thats nonsense old guy.

f4n4n
4th June 09, 05:21 PM
No, she is wearing that thing as part of her religion and she agreed, by taking up the job, to not display or advocate any religion. (Yet she is, admittedly so)
See, simple.
We have separation of church and state for a reason, she can't deal with that, she ain't fit to be a teacher, maybe not even for society if she does not agree on this fundamental statement.
It is this fucked up logic that I said brings problems. There are rules to be followed when you are a teacher and she thinks, because of her religion, she does not have to follow this rules. The rules of the society are no religion in schools and I agree with that. That does not make me a bigot. She can do what ever the hell she wants (within the law) in her free time but not during her work hours. Clean cut simple.

Spade: The Real Snake
4th June 09, 05:22 PM
You're just an ignorant bigot.

Did you not get the memo that everytime the word "bigot" is used, it is mandated to be encased in

HappyOldGuy
4th June 09, 05:26 PM
No, she is wearing that thing as part of her religion and she agreed, by taking up the job, to not display or advocate any religion. (Yet she is, admittedly so)
See, simple.
We have separation of church and state for a reason, she can't deal with that, she ain't fit to be a teacher, maybe not even for society if she does not agree on this fundamental statement.
It is this fucked up logic that I said brings problems. There are rules to be followed when you are a teacher and she thinks, because of her religion, she does not have to follow this rules. The rules of the society are no religion in schools and I agree with that. That does not make me a bigot. She can do what ever the hell she wants (within the law) in her free time but not during her work hours. Clean cut simple.
Did her contract specify that she could not have her hair covered?

No, it didn't.

So STFU. She is not advocating for her religion any more than a christian women is by not walking around in a thong.

Shawarma
4th June 09, 05:27 PM
If the contract said "no religious symbols", Anal is right.

HappyOldGuy
4th June 09, 05:28 PM
If the contract said "no religious symbols", Anal is right.
So almost every european woman before the last hundred years was a muslim?

Shawarma
4th June 09, 05:30 PM
Dude, I think headscarves are harmless, don't be a bitch towards me. I merely point out that if the contract clearly stated "secular school, no religious symbols", then Mrs. Muslim has no business whining.

HappyOldGuy
4th June 09, 05:32 PM
Dude, I think headscarves are harmless, don't be a bitch towards me. I merely point out that if the contract clearly stated "secular school, no religious symbols", then Mrs. Muslim has no business whining.
I don't agree that a headscarf is self evidently a religious symbol. For many really blatantly obvious reasons including the one I just mentioned.

Here is another comparable. Orthodox jewish girls often won't wear pants because of their modesty rules. Should they be required to to work in a german school?

Shawarma
4th June 09, 05:33 PM
Nobody wears headscarves anymore for anything but religious reasons Hog, don't be a bitch.

HappyOldGuy
4th June 09, 05:35 PM
Nobody wears headscarves anymore for anything but religious reasons Hog, don't be a bitch.
A) I'll make sure to tell madonna.
B) that still doesn't make them religious symbols.

Or this gal, obviously a closet muslim.

http://images.smh.com.au/2009/04/03/450550/queen_headscarf_gallery__600x400-420x0.jpg

Shawarma
4th June 09, 05:38 PM
Now you're just arguing for the sake of it.

HappyOldGuy
4th June 09, 05:39 PM
Now you're just arguing for the sake of it.

You mean because you can't answer the blatant facts?

Shawarma
4th June 09, 05:39 PM
Yeah, let's go with that.

Spade: The Real Snake
4th June 09, 05:41 PM
It is more the why then the what.
Generally, unless the woman is a cancer patient, the head scarf is used as an accessory and hair is visible, either bangs from the front, a ponytail from the back or used as a kerchief. Again, unless the woman is a cancer patient, most woman don't wear them everyday and many woman observe some manner of scarf etiquette and don't wear them indoors or while eating, much like a hat.

With a Hijab, all the "bountiful charms" are covered, no hair is visible and they are worn all day, inside or outside, in the presence of others.

HappyOldGuy
4th June 09, 05:44 PM
Restricting things based on the why is exactly the opposite of a seperation between church and state.

Religiously neutral is pretty much the basic fundamental requirement.

Spade: The Real Snake
4th June 09, 05:45 PM
Restricting things based on the why is exactly the opposite of a seperation between church and state.

See, I view it differently. Stating they SHOULD is the difference.

HappyOldGuy
4th June 09, 05:47 PM
See, I view it differently. Stating they SHOULD is the difference.
If I'm understanding you correctly, you are saying that a christian woman should be allowed to wear a headscarf and not a muslim woman. And that an orthodox jewish woman should be required to wear pants, and the mennonite gals should have to wear makeup and bright colors. Because their religion/culture says they can't do those things. Is that correct?

Oh, and 4n4l is a pussy.

Cullion
4th June 09, 05:51 PM
The idea that 'seperation of church and state' means 'all education has to be run by the state and all the employees and students are hereby forbidden freedom of religious expression' is exactly the sort of leap of fucktardery that means I find it hard to call the people who espouse it 'liberals'.

Spade: The Real Snake
4th June 09, 06:38 PM
If I'm understanding you correctly, you are saying that a christian woman should be allowed to wear a headscarf and not a muslim woman. And that an orthodox jewish woman should be required to wear pants, and the mennonite gals should have to wear makeup and bright colors. Because their religion/culture says they can't do those things. Is that correct?
Wow.
You sure read into alot.

The concept of someone wishing to change the framework of their contract due to religious belief, if I understand the situation correctly, and demanding the school recognize under threat of litigation is ridiculous.

When one aspect of a contract is change, all factors are option to renegotiation.

Personally, I don't give fuckall if she wears it or not IF she is a good teacher and not bringing her personal shit into the classroom.


Oh, and 4n4l is a pussy.
He's a German.

HappyOldGuy
4th June 09, 08:06 PM
Wow.
You sure read into alot.

The concept of someone wishing to change the framework of their contract due to religious belief, if I understand the situation correctly, and demanding the school recognize under threat of litigation is ridiculous.

When one aspect of a contract is change, all factors are option to renegotiation.

Personally, I don't give fuckall if she wears it or not IF she is a good teacher and not bringing her personal shit into the classroom.


He's a German.

You don't understand the situation. Her contract said absolutely nothing about wearing a headscarf. It said she could not openly display religious symbols.

Mind you, nuns teaching in german public schools had been wearing full habits forever, etc. It was a load of pure unadulterated bigotry.

After the initial load of crap got overruled by the German supreme court, then a number of states started passing specific laws banning the headscarves. They tried to make the laws only apply to muslims, but the german courts ruled that they had to apply to the nuns too.

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/wideangle/episodes/young-muslim-and-french/headscarf-headlines-around-the-world/germany/2619/

f4n4n
4th June 09, 08:13 PM
The idea that 'seperation of church and state' means 'all education has to be run by the state and all the employees and students are hereby forbidden freedom of religious expression' is exactly the sort of leap of fucktardery that means I find it hard to call the people who espouse it 'liberals'. You are getting it twisted and wrong. The thing is, if she wants to work in a public school, she has to deal with this, she knew it before and worked without the scarf before but decided to act against the rules. (I know the rules, my sister had to sign the same paperwork, she is a teacher and there in is stated what you are allowed and what not and though clothing is not exactly regulated, there are clauses regarding appropriate clothing and stuff you are not allowed, religion is among those things!)
I don't say she is not allowed to have any religion or is forbidden to express her religion in general but not when she is exercising her role as a teacher in a public school.
She wants to be a muslim teacher, fine with me, she can work at an approved school with a religious schedule, you can have that (sure you have to jump some hoops in order to get approved as a private school with a religious schedule, christian, muslim, hell even waldorf, if you know that shit, has to get approved to run shit other than the normal schedule).
And the kids are allowed to express and even practice their religion. Schools offer religion as an alternative to "ethics". But not during regular class.
You want to do that stuff, you can the thing is it bothers people as soon as you force it on to people, one way or another.

And MOG you are just a whiny bitch arguing for the sake of it.

HappyOldGuy
4th June 09, 08:16 PM
And MOG you are just a whiny bitch arguing for the sake of it.
No I'm not, you just keep telling yourself that because you know you have no answer. Because there is no fucking answer when nuns were allowed to wear full habits to work. So go fuck yourself pussy.

f4n4n
4th June 09, 08:26 PM
Read the shit, they are not allowed in public schools (or only during religion class) ... fuck head.
I am against all religion in schools besides the discussion you have during ethics when you talk about the general idea of the main religions. I think you should tell people there is such a thing but that is that everything else has no business in school, not matter if you are christian, muslim, jewish, hindu, buddhist ...

HappyOldGuy
4th June 09, 08:31 PM
Read the shit, they are not allowed in public schools (or only during religion class) ... fuck head.
I am against all religion in schools besides the discussion you have during ethics when you talk about the general idea of the main religions. I think you should tell people there is such a thing but that is that everything else has no business in school, not matter if you are christian, muslim, jewish, hindu, buddhist ...
Absolutely fucking wrong

http://www.hrw.org/en/node/80829/section/5

Nuns wear habits working as public school teachers. You have no fucking argument at all.

Not only that. Teachers who have tried to meet the law halfway by wearing berets and other sorts of caps that would be allowed by a non muslim, still get fired.

Harpy
4th June 09, 08:45 PM
Being a Muslim doesn't have anything to do with the woman being a teacher in a state school. Wearing a headscarf does not interfere with her ability to competently perform her job. From the school's point of view, as long as the cultural symbol/requirement meets certain requirements (eg. appropriately dressed for the environment) it should be fine.

I agree with HOG regarding the fact that scarves are NOT a religious 'symbol' at all. They are an item of clothing, whether worn around the neck or head (even waist) in various styles for reasons such as fashion, modesty, warmth, cultural reasons etc.

Are we really going to take all the beauty of diversity out of our state institutes (unless it is for health & safety reasons) just because a group of people seem to be fear mongering and attributing some sort of power over an article of clothing?

Muslim nun?

http://www.worldofstock.com/slides/PMO4413.jpg

f4n4n
4th June 09, 09:09 PM
Absolutely fucking wrong

http://www.hrw.org/en/node/80829/section/5

Nuns wear habits working as public school teachers. You have no fucking argument at all.

Not only that. Teachers who have tried to meet the law halfway by wearing berets and other sorts of caps that would be allowed by a non muslim, still get fired.
http://www.hrw.org/en/node/80829/section/5#_ftn118 ... says it simple out, the problem does not lay within the law but withing executing it. And just because I paint an apple orange and say it is an orange does not change the fact, just because on first glance it appears to be.
I agree that there should be no symbols at all, so does the court... The problem that SOME of the 16 states in Germany face is, there is a difference between having a law and enforcing it!

The other states have the christian believe in their constitution, like you have "in god we trust" on your money... and thus the ruling excludes the nuns since they are "protected" by law. The older law just overrules the newer since one is a law, the other is part of the constitution.
And then there are states that don't face the problem at all since they have no such law but have the issue covered by other rules.

HappyOldGuy
4th June 09, 09:23 PM
http://www.hrw.org/en/node/80829/section/5#_ftn118 ... says it simple out, the problem does not lay within the law but withing executing it. And just because I paint an apple orange and say it is an orange does not change the fact, just because on first glance it appears to be.
I agree that there should be no symbols at all, so does the court... The problem that SOME of the 16 states in Germany face is, there is a difference between having a law and enforcing it!

The other states have the christian believe in their constitution, like you have "in god we trust" on your money... and thus the ruling excludes the nuns since they are "protected" by law. The older law just overrules the newer since one is a law, the other is part of the constitution.
And then there are states that don't face the problem at all since they have no such law but have the issue covered by other rules.

I realize english isn't your first language, but what you linked to


The Administrative Court of Düsseldorf[118] judged in June 2007 in first instance that a trainee teacher who refused to remove her headscarf could not become a teacher in the state. In a decision that defies logic, the court held that while the exception clause of North Rhine-Westphalia cannot be a justification for Christian or Jewish clothes or symbols worn by teachers, the ban did not need to apply to nuns teaching in public schools in the state, since these were rare exceptions and therefore did not constitute a so-called 'deficit of execution' (Vollzugsdefizit) of the law.

Doesn't have any connection whatsoever to what you said. Also, you claimed that the law was justified because it represented the separation of church and state. Now you are saying that it is justified because Christianity is the official religion of Germany. Make up your mind. Both are bullshit, but they are bullshit for different reasons.




And Lily, on the bright side. If we get caught playing our Maria and the Captain games in german public schools, we're covered.

han090
4th June 09, 09:33 PM
Being a Muslim doesn't have anything to do with the woman being a teacher in a state school. Wearing a headscarf does not interfere with her ability to competently perform her job. From the school's point of view, as long as the cultural symbol/requirement meets certain requirements (eg. appropriately dressed for the environment) it should be fine.

I agree with HOG regarding the fact that scarves are NOT a religious 'symbol' at all. They are an item of clothing, whether worn around the neck or head (even waist) in various styles for reasons such as fashion, modesty, warmth, cultural reasons etc.

Are we really going to take all the beauty of diversity out of our state institutes (unless it is for health & safety reasons) just because a group of people seem to be fear mongering and attributing some sort of power over an article of clothing?I could wear a crucifix for fashion or cultural reasons.

This is not about an article of clothing. It about articles of clothing which are symbolic.

Certain schools in america ban "offensive" clothing (gang colours, hateful/sexual messages), not because of the power of the clothing itself, but because the the message.

Hell, several places have even tried to ban baggy pants (in everyday life http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-10-14-Baggy_N.htm)

I'm in favour of banning all religious symbols from school (except where relevant).

Absolutely fucking wrong

http://www.hrw.org/en/node/80829/section/5

Nuns wear habits working as public school teachers. You have no fucking argument at all.

Not only that. Teachers who have tried to meet the law halfway by wearing berets and other sorts of caps that would be allowed by a non muslim, still get fired.Fantastic, I quoted, and replied to like loads of your posts, only to find out that the laws about no religious symbols in schools are bullshit, because they exclude christians (and sometimes jews).Damn it all!

"It does not privilege Christianity, as such clothing and symbols are in line with the Bavarian constitution. Clothing and symbols of other religions which are not contrary to the goals and values of the constitution are also allowed.""

What complete tripe. This all leaves a horrible taste in my mouth. I can understand their feeling that headscarves represent the oppression of women, but to suggest the law doesn't privilege Christianity...

socratic
4th June 09, 10:10 PM
Is Turkey considered part of Europe? Can an Asian country join the EU? It seems wrong for some reason.

Turkey has been trying to get into the European Union for a long time. The Euros will never let them in because 'Asia', specifically 'Islamdom', starts with Turkey and as you go east just gets 'worse', if you're Eurotrash. That and Turkey is decreasingly secular in the face of an increasingly fundamentalist populace. That and it doesn't have the same economic clout as some of the other Euro nations.

The council currently trying to figure out how much of the Hadith is canonical (protip: NONE OF IT) is in Turkey. They're actually pretty progressive compared to others.


I have to admit that I am with Lebell on this one.
Germany has the largest amount of Turks outside of turkey and until the countries and the EU itself have found a way to successfully integrate those people, I am not going to think this is a good idea, not for them and no way for the EU.
I mean just look at the failed integration here in Germany, Berlin or Cologne, ghettos, social hot spots, kids who are not able to speak either German nor Turkish. No perspective in Germany or Turkey, not considered home in either of the countries.
It is almost 50 years since the first people came here and look, the problem is still not overcome. And I don't see it happening anytime soon.

Maybe you silly Deutchbags should have thought of that before you mass-imported foreigners to do all the menial labour your non-breeding population was too good to do. I seriously don't get why anyone is surprised when they mass-import outsiders WHO HAVE THEIR OWN LANGUAGE AND CULTURE and then go "Gee, why can't they just act like us?" This isn't hard, Eurofuckers.


Lebell, the religion of the Turks is not really the issue. They're the least superinsane Muslims around, except for perhaps the Malay.

Malaysia until very recently being the Saudi Arabia [lol terrorist training camps] of South Asia, a huge fundamentalist nation and not really a nice place at all... At least, if you aren't a Muslim Malay. You're right about the Turkish being relatively progressive though.



The thing most people don't realise with headscarves is that unless you're a fundamentalist you don't even wear the 'underscarf' [I forget the name] (which completely hides all your hair and makes it look like your face is poking out of a mountain of cloth). I've a Muslim convert teacher who occasionally wears the headscarf (lol, there's no part in the Quran that says you have to wear one) and when she does she doesn't go full kit and kaboodle, she just has a scarf tied around her head 1950s style. There's a real gamut of interpretations on what constitutes proper 'modesty', although it's a generally held rule that when entering a Mosque a woman must always cover their head. The Indonesians do the whole kit-and-caboodle (underscarf, scar, ceremonial sari, etc etc) when praying but probably not when living their day-to-day lives. And some of those headscarves are damn fashionable, man. Actually, even in fundamentalist nations such as Egypt, there's a pretty strong fashion industry and culture regarding various 'styles' of headscarf and 'modest clothing'.

elipson
5th June 09, 12:28 AM
I'm skipping ahead because I don't want to read 9 pages of this right now.

The EU is still dealing with the integration of several Eastern European states with all their bullshit and unemployment. Turkey is too big, too poor, and too different culturally to be part of the Union at the moment.

From a purely economic perspective its a bad time for the Turkey to join, and there is no way it will happen in the next 10 years. And I do think that Obama should refrain from commenting on this.

He knows the EU won't let Turkey in, so he is playing both sides. The Turks will be happy to hear him say that, and the European politicians realize he is just spouting empty political rhetoric so they won't take it too personally.

Virus
5th June 09, 02:57 AM
Originally Posted by Shawarma
The Islamic religion will only become a major immigration problem if the more radical mullahs had the good sense to set up viable political parties and be able to bullshit Muslims into voting for them. That's a good 10% of the vote right there.

Political parties aren't the only problem. What about blowing up a train or cafe? There are already Saudi financed mosques preaching hatred and distributing jihadist literature in Europe and other western countries. There are also Muslim schools where textbooks say that non-Muslims to go hell and Jews are evil.

Lebell
5th June 09, 03:28 AM
some general points about the European situation.

we can have a nice little semantics bitchfest about headscarfs and all, but its besides the point.
over here you have a choice in schooling: you can send your kid to a religious or to a public school, a public school is usually just as good as a religious one but there are obviously no prayers or bible/quran studies etc.

if there is a muslim woman who wants to teach with her headscarf on then she can find an islamic school.

instead she is seeking out the confrontation by insisting teaching on a public or sometimes even a christian school.
then you're just being a cunt.

Europe is a 'christian continent' ofcourse there is a lot of secularity nowadays, but most of our laws, social standards etc are inspired on christian and humanist values.
We got buddhists, jews, hindus and muslims living here, and thats fine.
but they should realise that they are minorities over here and if you are a minority you get some funding, you have the right to build your holy places and organise schooling for your kids as long as it meets educational standards.

now the buddhists, jews and hindus dont have any problems with this, only a part of the muslim minority keeps pushing and pshing trying to impose their own rules on the majority.

they ask for respect for islam, but thats not what they are actually saying, respect for islam should be translated as ' do what we say'.


as soon as minorities such as jews christians and kurds get a equal status in turkey and the middle east where they can build churches, pay the same amount of taxes and can live life without death threaths, we can talk about rights.

so far muslims in europe should seriously shut the fuck up, they as a minority have it way better then the religious minorities in their home countries.



Socratic, a little more info about your remark about mass imigration and being dumb about it.
its a lie.
in the 60ies Holland imported wrkers from spain italy yugoslavia turkey and north africa.

the deal was that they had contracts that allowed them to stay for some years and then get back.
instead they broke it and stuck around, and the fault of the dutch at the time was they didnt enforce the deal.

now we have huge amounts of chinese italians spanish and yugoslavians who cause no problems whatso-ever yet the jails are overpopulated with the guys from turkey and north africa.

the decendants of the italians etc can speak fluently dutch, yet lots of turkish and arabic kids walk around here with an accent like they just arrived from the mahgreb 4 months ago.

explain plz?

socratic
5th June 09, 07:40 AM
Your government, Lebell, by and large didn't care about exporting all the borrowed labour (which I find hard to believe, I bet there was at least some serious attempts to expel them) because a) they still needed the workers b) the workers had become citizens or c) you can pay illegals whatever the hell you want, and businesses tend to make a habit of squirreling away their very-useful-very-cheap illegals. There's probably way more reasons than this but these are from the top of my head.

Is it really so hard for you to understand that people with their own culture would wish to maintain that culture, especially in places that are foreign to them? I'd feel pretty pretty 'outsider'ish in a lot of those places too and I'm white. If you want to talk about prejudice, I'd be willing to bet that way less people have a problem with other Europeans coming in then they do Muslim Turks. Besides, the Chinese are a 'model minority' pretty much everywhere, and are as a stereotype considered industrious and successful. Even so I bet there's plenty of people in Holland who have a problem with any of these people being there. The Yugoslavians [ps: no such ethnicity] were probably fleeing communist rule, I hear that Tito guy wasn't very nice.

But in my example I was talking about Germany, not Holland, as Germany more or less did the same thing with largely Turks. And lots more of them.

This is the problem with any country that goes about systematically importing foreign labour- you can see this from Paris all the way to Japan. They bring in a bunch of foreigners, make little to no effort to naturalise them, probably exploit the shit out them, and then wonder why the stinky outsiders can't just be like all the other natives. People in these countries may have a very strong sense of identity linked with their old countries and ethnicities, so integration without any proper effort from both sides becomes increasingly difficult and you end up with pockets of 'ethnic' population and a bunch of natives saying "They don't want to be like us, send them away".

socratic
5th June 09, 07:43 AM
Lebell, does teaching in a public school mean you cannot wear a cross?

PS: I like your passively rascist "We're Christians, if they want to be different they just have to put up with us not treating them as they deserve" shtick. Also, "They're not nice so we're not going to be nice either" is a stupid excuse for perpetuating inequality.

Lebell
5th June 09, 08:01 AM
Lebell, does teaching in a public school mean you cannot wear a cross?

yes.


PS: I like your passively rascist "We're Christians, if they want to be different they just have to put up with us not treating them as they deserve" shtick. Also, "They're not nice so we're not going to be nice either" is a stupid excuse for perpetuating inequality.

its not passively and its not racist.
you're probably a lefty right?
you tend to make things needlesly complicated.

imagine it on a smaller scale, there's this clubhouse you and your friends built.
nice swimmingpool, sweet soundsystem, cocktail bar, nice girls dropping by.

Now some 30 years ago you needed a guy to paint the club and fix the toilets, the guy was poor and he was happy to have some cash coming in while he could hang out at the club.
The idea was to do the job and go back.
That guy is me, i walk into your club, start drinking for free eventhough i complain about the taste.
then i demand that there should be different music on the playlist since i find certain thigs annoying and upsetting.
finally i start hasseling the girls and i take a leak in your swimmingpool.

how would you respond?

isnt it normal to say ' hey, you obviously dont like it here, why dont you piss off?'

Lebell
5th June 09, 08:08 AM
some general points for you hippies out there:

WE the people never asked for them.
It was decided by the governments of that time.
Yet the normal people pay the bill: newcomers heavily rely on the welfare system, the welfare system has been paid by MY grandparents, not theirs.
If a newcomer starts working and contributing, fine by me, you contribute to the pot of money then you are entitled to use from it.

but thats not whats happening.
years ago i was on welfare for two months, i had to stand in line to fill in a form.
this newcomer dude is in front of me, he wanted to see if his two sons of 8 and 13 could have welfare.
When the guy at the counter said no he got angry and started yelling racism!
what the fuck?!

point is, the points and objections im making are logical, and people like socratic yelling racism dont help to a constructive solution.

the first step towards a solution is indentifying what the problem is.

the problem are muslim immigrants and dutch people who decended from muslim immigrants.

you cant solve the problem by sauing: oh yeah but YOU guys got them in your country in the first place! zomg racism!!!

tell it to the shopkeepers, tell it to the girls who get raped and sexual harrashed, tell it to the old people who are too affraid to leave their houses when the sun goes down and tell it to the homosexuals who after decades of relative peace suddenly get gaybashed again.

socratic
5th June 09, 08:24 AM
Your hypothetical is exactly what's wrong with you and your country.

Here's what actually happened, Lebell:

Your great-whatever and his buds built a clubhouse. It's alright. Now over the years they got old and died, and their kids grew up and rebuilt the clubhouse as it got continuously damaged by wear and tear and war and whatnot. Slowly but surely everyone stopped breeding quite as much as was needed, and suddenly the numbers of kids around to help rebuild began to drop. People realised this was getting to be a serious problem so they decided to get some outside help.

"Okay, Ahmed, you and your mates can come over and help rebuild, and we'll pay you a bit for it, but then you gotta leave, alright?" "Okay."

Ahmed and a few of his friend decided they liked the place. Some of them married locals and got the right to stay. Others got kicked out or left voluntarily. Others hid and stayed anyway. Now, they never really STOPPED rebuilding the clubhouse, like you or any of your mates. They're still doing it now.

You and your mates let Ahmed and his remaining friends, and their kids, into your club, but only on the condition that they a) act like you do b) dress like you do c) talk like you do d) believe what you believe e) agree with you. Now Ahmed and his friends have their own shtick going on- they've been believing what they believe, talking how they talk, dressing how they dress, for years, so they think it's more than a little unfair, and none of this was a problem when they first came over and started building the clubhouse, so they now begin to dislike how they're being treated. Maybe they've started to realise all you and your mates made a killing off having Ahmed come over, at Ahmed's expense.

Ahmed Jr, and some of his friends, who were either born here or came over, asks if he can play his music for once, and drink something he prefers, because frankly he was raised differently to you and he really just doesn't like some of your drinks and music. And let's be fair, your music is pretty fucking bad. You and your mates tell them to fuck off because clearly he's the unreasonable one for not thinking, looking and talking like you do.

socratic
5th June 09, 08:29 AM
some general points for you hippies out there:

WE the people never asked for them.
It was decided by the governments of that time.
Yet the normal people pay the bill: newcomers heavily rely on the welfare system, the welfare system has been paid by MY grandparents, not theirs.
If a newcomer starts working and contributing, fine by me, you contribute to the pot of money then you are entitled to use from it.

Except your grandparents did such a fucking shit job at it that your parents asked Ahmed to come over, and then you, not realising all the work Ahmed has put into keeping you alive, decide that really you own the place more than he does and he needs to fuck off.


but thats not whats happening.
years ago i was on welfare for two months, i had to stand in line to fill in a form.
this newcomer dude is in front of me, he wanted to see if his two sons of 8 and 13 could have welfare.
When the guy at the counter said no he got angry and started yelling racism!
what the fuck?!

Just today I spoke with a Dutch racist who thought all muslims were bad even though he hasn't met the majority of muslims and never will.


point is, the points and objections im making are logical, and people like socratic yelling racism dont help to a constructive solution.

Neither does abject bigotry, you idiot.


the first step towards a solution is indentifying what the problem is.

the problem are muslim immigrants and dutch people who decended from muslim immigrants.

"I'm not racist but I think all the brown people are evil". Really Lebell, are you sure you aren't a racist?


you cant solve the problem by sauing: oh yeah but YOU guys got them in your country in the first place! zomg racism!!!

And you can't solve the problem by scapegoating the brown people.


tell it to the shopkeepers, tell it to the girls who get raped and sexual harrashed, tell it to the old people who are too affraid to leave their houses when the sun goes down and tell it to the homosexuals who after decades of relative peace suddenly get gaybashed again.

So what you're saying is there was never crime in Holland before the Muslims came? Wow, that's stupid, wrong AND racist.

socratic
5th June 09, 08:34 AM
Lebell, you ever hear of multiculturalism?

Lebell
5th June 09, 08:38 AM
Your hypothetical is exactly what's wrong with you and your country.

Here's what actually happened, Lebell:
yesh please lecture me from Australia about what happened in the country i was born and raised in.
give it to me!


Your great-whatever and his buds built a clubhouse. It's alright. Now over the years they got old and died, and their kids grew up and rebuilt the clubhouse as it got continuously damaged by wear and tear and war and whatnot. Slowly but surely everyone stopped breeding quite as much as was needed, and suddenly the numbers of kids around to help rebuild began to drop. People realised this was getting to be a serious problem so they decided to get some outside help.

wrong.thats a myth.
the people got hired to do manual work because the dutch people were developping, many more people started to go to uni, and technological wise we were on the treshhold of going from an agraric society to a ' services society' .


"Okay, Ahmed, you and your mates can come over and help rebuild, and we'll pay you a bit for it, but then you gotta leave, alright?" "Okay."

Ahmed and a few of his friend decided they liked the place. Some of them married locals and got the right to stay. Others got kicked out or left voluntarily. Others hid and stayed anyway. Now, they never really STOPPED rebuilding the clubhouse, like you or any of your mates. They're still doing it now.


wrong again.
they didnt mix with locals, i wish they did.
their brides got flown in from their original countries.
they arent rebuilding shit.
they sit in their own coffeehouses , dont speak the language, depending on their kids to translate crap for them.
the kids grow up without any parental guidance, the old generation doesnt speak the language remember?
thats how shit started.





You and your mates let Ahmed and his remaining friends, and their kids, into your club, but only on the condition that they a) act like you do b) dress like you do c) talk like you do d) believe what you believe e) agree with you. Now Ahmed and his friends have their own shtick going on- they've been believing what they believe, talking how they talk, dressing how they dress, for years, so they think it's more than a little unfair, and none of this was a problem when they first came over and started building the clubhouse, so they now begin to dislike how they're being treated. Maybe they've started to realise all you and your mates made a killing off having Ahmed come over, at Ahmed's expense.

another myth.
ahmed and his friends came from a background which is almost alien to us.
wont let their wives leave the house, backwards ideas about womens rights, gay peoples rights and feeling superior to anyone not muslim.
the countries they're from are poor and crappy for a reason, their mentality.
now if someone moves into your nice clean and safe clubhouse wouldnt it be a good idea to teach them how to keep it clean safe and enjoyable or would you rather have them fuck up your clubhouse as they did with their own.


Ahmed Jr, and some of his friends, who were either born here or came over, asks if he can play his music for once, and drink something he prefers, because frankly he was raised differently to you and he really just doesn't like some of your drinks and music. And let's be fair, your music is pretty fucking bad. You and your mates tell them to fuck off because clearly he's the unreasonable one for not thinking, looking and talking like you do.

wow...that was stupid.
trust me you dont want to get in this discussion with me because it will go on and on and i unlike you know what im talking about.

question: are you yourself from a muslim family?
Lebanese or something?

Lebell
5th June 09, 08:39 AM
Lebell, you ever hear of multiculturalism?

heared about it, never actually seen it though.
its like atlantis i guess, i believe it when they find it.

Lebell
5th June 09, 08:43 AM
Except your grandparents did such a fucking shit job at it that your parents asked Ahmed to come over, and then you, not realising all the work Ahmed has put into keeping you alive, decide that really you own the place more than he does and he needs to fuck off.

us and they again?
very black and white.




Just today I spoke with a Dutch racist who thought all muslims were bad even though he hasn't met the majority of muslims and never will.

ZOMG!!! THREAD WIN!!!




Neither does abject bigotry, you idiot.
i agree and i find the bigotry displayed by a great deal of muslims towards people of different faiths or sexual preferences offensive.




"I'm not racist but I think all the brown people are evil". Really Lebell, are you sure you aren't a racist?
And you can't solve the problem by scapegoating the brown people.

Im not talking about ' brown people' im talking about muslims.
you got white muslims aswell over here.

fun fact, the PVV political party of Wilders gets a lot of votes from the black dutch community.




So what you're saying is there was never crime in Holland before the Muslims came? Wow, that's stupid, wrong AND racist.

ah come on, dont be that lame dude.

socratic
5th June 09, 08:46 AM
heared about it, never actually seen it though.
its like atlantis i guess, i believe it when they find it.

Don't worry you, you never will. You live in Europe, you're better than that shit.

To answer your question about my parentage? I'm white. Not that it actually matters.

"Waaaahhh the brown people aren't acting like I am! MAKE THEM GO AWAY!"

socratic
5th June 09, 08:51 AM
I'm pretty sure I could find one Muslim in Holland who isn't a criminal or who doesn't have criminal-tendencies as you seem to believe all Muslims do. I'm pretty sure I could find a lot of them. Maybe the problem isn't ALL the Muslims? Maybe your country wouldn't have a problem at all if you guys made an attempt to integrate the immigrant populace?

socratic
5th June 09, 08:56 AM
Let me put it this way: Your entire family gets working visas in Iran. You don't want to dress in 'modest' clothes and the women in your family refuse to wear a hijab. You break the laws and local customs as a result. You complain loudly about the lack of Dutch things around, how you have to do everything the backwards Iranian way, and how everything they do is all wrong and frankly offensive. You passively refuse to learn Arabic because all you do is hang around with other Hollanders anyway. The locals all learn to fear and hate you, because all white Hollanders are crazy assholes who refuse to respect the law or Iranian custom.

Should the Iranians be allowed to expell you? What if you're entire family has been living in Iran for 40 years?

Lebell
5th June 09, 09:26 AM
Let me put it this way: Your entire family gets working visas in Iran. You don't want to dress in 'modest' clothes and the women in your family refuse to wear a hijab. You break the laws and local customs as a result. You complain loudly about the lack of Dutch things around, how you have to do everything the backwards Iranian way, and how everything they do is all wrong and frankly offensive. You passively refuse to learn Arabic because all you do is hang around with other Hollanders anyway. The locals all learn to fear and hate you, because all white Hollanders are crazy assholes who refuse to respect the law or Iranian custom.

uhuh.


Should the Iranians be allowed to expell you? What if you're entire family has been living in Iran for 40 years?

Absolutely.
You see, as a mature person i take the conseqences of my choices, if i would find myself in that situation i'd leave, i clearly do not belong in that society.
I'd sure as hell wouldnt be sulking like a little kid and behave like a victim.

You know what you should do?
Spend some months in a middle eastern country and get to me about this subject.
im not talking about playing the tourist so everyone will be nice because of your wallet, im talking about living there, getting to know the people.


people in general cant be all bad.
and ofcourse not every single muslim over here has a criminal record.
my point is more that Islam and the cultures around it enables if not encourages people to behave like they do right now.

Any intelligent individual will leave Islam and the hadiths for what they are, but the social pressure is whole other thing.

You apply reason as a westener and assume thy think like this aswell.
and to get back to the OP: so did Obama, he thought he was doing a good thing, but instead gave of a signal: hai guiz, we're tired and about to roll over, cant we just be friends instead?

Lebell
5th June 09, 09:34 AM
Don't worry you, you never will. You live in Europe, you're better than that shit.

Why yes i am.
LOL!
no seriously though, i find the European way of life much more preferable, ofcourse we have bad things aswell, just not nearly half as bad as things are run in your average middle eastern country.
I feel strongly about being able to live your life and develloping to your fullest extend.
Wether you are male or female, black or white, jewish, christian or muslim, heterosexual or gay, etc.
I am convinced the average individual is happier in a society where he can express himself without too dire consequences and can live life in reasonable safe conditions.

I have a problem with anyone who threathens this way of life wether they would be commies, nazis, fundementalist christian,jewish or muslim.

its amazing to see how you cant get that and want to shove me in the racist corner.
i have family in australia but i wouldnt dream to lecture you on how things go up in australia, yet you feel the need to brand me as an idiot about the history and current social tensions in the country i live in every day.

socratic
5th June 09, 09:35 AM
See, Lebell, what you've failed to discern is that there is more than one kind of 'Islam'. In fact, there are many kinds of Islam, just like there are many kinds of Christianity or Judaism. You might say there are as many kinds of Islam as there are Islamics. You are continuously generalising dude, and it makes your arguments weak. I know a PHD student who is a Muslim, does that make her stupid? She was smart enough to apply for a PHD. Or doesn't she count as a real Muslim?

There has been and is relatively progressive Muslim societies and within fundamentalist societies moderate movements exist. Take Indonesia- there's strong pluralist AND fundamentalist movements and there's doctors and lawyers on both sides of the debate.

Lebell, what is 'The West'? In what way am I a westerner?

bobyclumsyninja
5th June 09, 09:54 AM
Islam in its teachings enables the poor to stay poor yet still feel superior to people who are not muslims.
Try reading some Christ, he was actually kinda sweet on the poor, and the humility bit. Islam isn't about you-rulez-for-no-moneyz.




Even Christians had the crusades inquisition etc while their teachings of jesus clearly state that is wrong.
Still they did it, now if you have a holy book that states its pretty much okay to wage war on infadels what you reckon will happen?
There's no war for god in the Bible? I beg to differ, yon Golliath. I'm not aware of too many christian denominations that omit the blood soaked murderous bits out of the bibles they carry. It's not just the Jesus files.

Everybody picks and chooses out of these old books. We don't use some of the punishments set out in the bible for good reason. Parts of that massive book aren't really wholesome.

The Armenian Genocide, Cyprus, and economics are valid sticking points. They are unlikely, in my opinion, to keep the Turks out of the EU for ever.

Obama mentioned the Turks, in my opinion, because so many western politicians would have other islamic nations adopt similar governemts, and be open to modernize, as policy. Rightly or wrongly, they're going to push for this, as a practical example of some middle ground, in the islam/government tug of war.

I tell you, I wish the US hadn't spent 8 years with nutbag pseudo-religious sociopaths running the country, in tandem with dangerous, and over eager military interests.

The bush approach, was no approach. They thought faith could erase the need to speak to differing opinions with respect, and some understanding of the frame of debate. They also thought faith could win a war of conquest, in terms of logistical realities. That and they intended to lay it all on the next admin. That's why they were keeping gov business on republican servers...no evidence, then just lie lie lie lie.

I approve of President Obama using his brain more fully, in communicating with opponents or allies, and approaching complex international issues. The era of the Chimp (GWB) is over, and maybe now America would like to act like a nation, and not a pissed off teenager in a spat with his/her therapist.

Lebell
5th June 09, 09:59 AM
See, Lebell, what you've failed to discern is that there is more than one kind of 'Islam'.


actually i was assuming that was common knowledge.




In fact, there are many kinds of Islam, just like there are many kinds of Christianity or Judaism. You might say there are as many kinds of Islam as there are Islamics. You are continuously generalising dude, and it makes your arguments weak.

Why no, they prove my point.
There are indeed several forms of Islam.
Besides the main streams such as Shi-ites(them being devided in two aswell) Sunnites and Wahabites, there's also Sufism and Alavites.
Boy is it fun to be a sufi or alivite in a muslim country! btw.

anyway, besides all the bickering the guys have amongst eachother they certainly close ranks when it comes to afghanistan or the palestinian drama.
thats the proof of why its dangerous.
their concept is that you should be righteous and honest and all those good things to your brothers.
Not perce to infadels.
You do know why there are so few people who denounce their islamic faith?
Coz its punishable by death.
Islam and sp. sharia is constructed in such a way it has a stranglehold on every aspect of daily life and it makes sure you cant leave.





I know a PHD student who is a Muslim, does that make her stupid? She was smart enough to apply for a PHD. Or doesn't she count as a real Muslim?

Why are you asking me?
Go to an Imam and ask him what a devout muslim should think about a woman who goes to a western university unaccompanied by a male relative associating with men.



There has been and is relatively progressive Muslim societies and within fundamentalist societies moderate movements exist. Take Indonesia- there's strong pluralist AND fundamentalist movements and there's doctors and lawyers on both sides of the debate.

Huh?!
Did you read your own post?
' there are relative progressive...' the mere fact you have to write it that apologetic already says a lot.
Also i like to have some names of those progresive societies and what makes them so relative progressive.


Lebell, what is 'The West'? In what way am I a westerner?again, you are barking up the wrong tree.
ask an imam what is al-gharb? could you tell me what is the concept of the house of islam and the house of war?

go on, email one, or three for all i care.
do you know about islam anyway?

you approach the islamic world with western eyes, i say, take the time to look at it through their eyes.
you might be in for a shock.

Spade: The Real Snake
5th June 09, 10:08 AM
You don't understand the situation. Her contract said absolutely nothing about wearing a headscarf. It said she could not openly display religious symbols.

Mind you, nuns teaching in german public schools had been wearing full habits forever, etc. It was a load of pure unadulterated bigotry.

After the initial load of crap got overruled by the German supreme court, then a number of states started passing specific laws banning the headscarves. They tried to make the laws only apply to muslims, but the german courts ruled that they had to apply to the nuns too.

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/wideangle/episodes/young-muslim-and-french/headscarf-headlines-around-the-world/germany/2619/

Presupposing we are no longer discussing the convention that the head scarf *isn't* a religious symbol, the school can instituted any dress code it likes.

However if we are going to agree the hijab head covering is done for religious purposes to shield the bountiful gifts AND the school is allowing Nuns to currently teach wearing their traditional head coverings, then yes, I fully agree with you.

Many modern day nuns in America, and I cannot speak for Germany, are no longer wearing traditional garments, so the concept of nuns teaching would only be relevant if they are still wearing the traditional habit.

Lebell
5th June 09, 10:09 AM
Try reading some Christ, he was actually kinda sweet on the poor, and the humility bit. Islam isn't about you-rulez-for-no-moneyz.



There's no war for god in the Bible? I beg to differ, yon Golliath. I'm not aware of too many christian denominations that omit the blood soaked murderous bits out of the bibles they carry. It's not just the Jesus files.

Everybody picks and chooses out of these old books. We don't use some of the punishments set out in the bible for good reason. Parts of that massive book aren't really wholesome.


you're right and wrong.
i'll choose my words carefully here, pay attention : the teachings of Jesus (not saying the whole bible) are fundamentally different then the Islam.

Read their book.
Where (in theology, not talking daily life since we're all rotten sinners)in the N.T. you get this image of mercy and a chance of salvation, look after the weak and poor, be humane etc.

now open a quran: beware who-ever is not a true believer!! fire awaits!!!! blaagh!!! and it goes on and on.

sure the o.t. has books like this aswell, but in the n.t. they give you something to work with, its explained how life works and what you should do to better yourself and make the world a better place etc.

quran basically says: we have the true religion! only one prophet!!! accept it or die and burn in hell!
besides the threaths of hellfire and the parts where christians and jews are ' criticised, there's nothing.
some plattitudes which obviously were already written down in the torah and bible.
the main focus point is: believe in our system or perish.
their whole religious mechanism is designed to dominate every aspect of life and be incompatible with any other form of religion or beliefs set.

please dont take my word for it, go read a quran or the hadiths or the sharia.
its all online.

f4n4n
5th June 09, 10:50 AM
@socratic
It is funny how you portrait people as racist and what not, just because we point out that there is a huge problem with a small group amongst a minority.
I have a problem with people who come here and demand others to change their ways, beyond compare, just because THEY feel that what they do is superior/the right thing to do. I have not a single problem with people as long as they try to make an effort and maybe meet in the middle (or close to it).
The thing is, nobody will bother anybody if you keep to your self and follow the given laws/regulations. And there is no problem for the majority among immigrants to do so, because the freedoms here are more than enough.
Yet there is this small group that has the desperate need to push into a space that used to be neutral and they also push into peoples private room. I don't tell people what to think but if somebody tells me that I have to believe and shoves it into my face, I will reject.
Example, my girl, her family is heavily influenced by christian believe (they have bibles and saint all over the place), I think it is bogus but I will not go there and tell them off. It is their house and though I have a rightful place there (since my girl asked me to be there) I am not going to tell her parents that christian believe is BS from my point of view. And even if asked, I will try to be as polite as possible and avoid telling them.
This is how it should be, but there is this small minority that we are talking about and they would go and point fingers at the bible and say "you are wrong, you have to put that away, I can't be here because you have that stuff laying around". I guess you see the difference. And you will agree with me on this one.
And this is the exact issue we are talking about. Nobody is complaining about people who try... The problem is some of those people who come to the countries of Europe think they don't have to try. And those are the ones that cause problems.

Virus
5th June 09, 11:20 AM
you're right and wrong.
i'll choose my words carefully here, pay attention : the teachings of Jesus (not saying the whole bible) are fundamentally different then the Islam.

Read their book.
Where (in theology, not talking daily life since we're all rotten sinners)in the N.T. you get this image of mercy and a chance of salvation, look after the weak and poor, be humane etc.

You can find a Jihadist Jesus in the NT if you want to. He promised hell (which isn't mentioned in the Old Testament) for people that don't believe as he does.

You can find peace and mercy in the Koran if you want to. One of the pillars of Islam is charity.



now open a quran: beware who-ever is not a true believer!! fire awaits!!!! blaagh!!! and it goes on and on.

Ditto for gentle Jesus.



sure the o.t. has books like this aswell, but in the n.t. they give you something to work with, its explained how life works and what you should do to better yourself and make the world a better place etc.


quran basically says: we have the true religion! only one prophet!!! accept it or die and burn in hell!

Ditto Christianity. Where do you think the Muslims got that idea from? All religions claim t3h r34l which is why they're all fucking stupid.



besides the threaths of hellfire and the parts where christians and jews are ' criticised, there's nothing.
some plattitudes which obviously were already written down in the torah and bible.
the main focus point is: believe in our system or perish.
their whole religious mechanism is designed to dominate every aspect of life and be incompatible with any other form of religion or beliefs set.

As I said Christianity is the same, it's just that Christianity has been removed from the public sphere and made extremely large concessions to enlightenment and science.

Of course, I'll grant that Islam poses a more immediate threat to the world than Christianity, it let's not get complacent, that nonsense needs to be outgrown too.

Lebell
5th June 09, 11:34 AM
virus, stfu will you?
its not about christianity now.

KO'd N DOA
5th June 09, 11:38 AM
But is Obama ...

the 13th Imam,
The Messiah,
The AntiChrist.

I think he offers so much to so many for them project their belief, that I think he would be an idiot to not see it.

But what about the non People of the Book. Should they be scared?

Lebell
5th June 09, 11:52 AM
i think everybody should be scared, like all of the time.

HappyOldGuy
5th June 09, 12:00 PM
So why is it that these German types can't even be liberals without putting on the jackboots.

Discuss.

Lebell
5th June 09, 12:01 PM
So why is it that these German types can't even be liberals without putting on the jackboots.

Discuss.

they make me feel sexy and when you march down the streets on them they make this click clack sound.
its pretty awesome.

Spade: The Real Snake
5th June 09, 12:03 PM
So why is it that these German types can't even be liberals without putting on the jackboots.

Discuss.
They are cloven-hooved.

Ajamil
5th June 09, 02:20 PM
Would I be allowed to not eat meat at a public school in Germany? Would this be a symbol of my religion? I know devotees who were forced by teachers in Russia to drink alcohol and had flesh shoved into their mouths, was this in the name of secularism?

HappyOldGuy
5th June 09, 02:30 PM
Would I be allowed to not eat meat at a public school in Germany? Would this be a symbol of my religion? I know devotees who were forced by teachers in Russia to drink alcohol and had flesh shoved into their mouths, was this in the name of secularism?

I don't think that would qualify as a symbol.

Shaving your head would probably be straight out.

If it was a muslim custom.

Spade: The Real Snake
5th June 09, 02:41 PM
I don't think that would qualify as a symbol.

Shaving your head would probably be straight out.

If it was a muslim custom.

What about them doily hats?

What is the stance on them?

Virus
5th June 09, 08:02 PM
its not about christianity now.

You brought it up, fagboat.

Lebell
6th June 09, 10:24 AM
zomg...did you call me a fagboat?!

anyway, Obama is an idiot and whoever disagrees is a fucking dhimmi.

PERIOD.

socratic
6th June 09, 10:59 AM
@socratic
It is funny how you portrait people as racist and what not, just because we point out that there is a huge problem with a small group amongst a minority.
I have a problem with people who come here and demand others to change their ways, beyond compare, just because THEY feel that what they do is superior/the right thing to do.

Do you listen to yourself? This is exactly what you want Turks and Muslims to do, and so does Lebell. You just don't think YOU should have to change to comfort THEM.


I have not a single problem with people as long as they try to make an effort and maybe meet in the middle (or close to it).

I thought you said you didn't want to force people to change?


The thing is, nobody will bother anybody if you keep to your self and follow the given laws/regulations. And there is no problem for the majority among immigrants to do so, because the freedoms here are more than enough.
Yet there is this small group that has the desperate need to push into a space that used to be neutral and they also push into peoples private room. I don't tell people what to think but if somebody tells me that I have to believe and shoves it into my face, I will reject.
Example, my girl, her family is heavily influenced by christian believe (they have bibles and saint all over the place), I think it is bogus but I will not go there and tell them off. It is their house and though I have a rightful place there (since my girl asked me to be there) I am not going to tell her parents that christian believe is BS from my point of view. And even if asked, I will try to be as polite as possible and avoid telling them.
This is how it should be, but there is this small minority that we are talking about and they would go and point fingers at the bible and say "you are wrong, you have to put that away, I can't be here because you have that stuff laying around". I guess you see the difference. And you will agree with me on this one.
And this is the exact issue we are talking about. Nobody is complaining about people who try... The problem is some of those people who come to the countries of Europe think they don't have to try. And those are the ones that cause problems.

I'm betting your girlfriend's family (are they Catholic? Lotta Germans are...) have crucifixes or somesuch. If we're expecting Muslims to meet us half way in public [since you've now contradicted yourself] then we should stop people having crucifixes and habits and whatnot in public too. Jews shouldn't be allowed to wear yamakuhs. You get what I'm getting at? "They should meet us half-way" means YOU HAVE TO MEET THEM HALF WAY. But you AREN'T willing to meet them half way, you want them to be more like you then the other way around, and even if you say right now you don't believe you're better than they are, you most certainly do, because you think they should be more like you and your nice Deutschbag ilk and less like Turkish Muslims.

Hey hey hey hey Lebell, here's a progressive Muslim society: FUCKING TURKEY. Indonesia ain't all bad either, considering they are STAUNCHLY pluralist at least at a legal level.


zomg...did you call me a fagboat?!

anyway, Obama is an idiot and whoever disagrees is a fucking dhimmi.

PERIOD.

All Europeans are fucking assholes and anyone who disagrees is secretly trying to help the Europeans retake the colonial nations.

PERIOD.

Lebell
6th June 09, 11:19 AM
Do you listen to yourself? This is exactly what you want Turks and Muslims to do, and so does Lebell. You just don't think YOU should have to change to comfort THEM.

LOL! Lefty!






Hey hey hey hey Lebell, here's a progressive Muslim society: FUCKING TURKEY. Indonesia ain't all bad either, considering they are STAUNCHLY pluralist at least at a legal level.

Really? Turkey modern and progressive?
and so is Indonesia?!
Are you from a different dimension or jut talking out of your ass?

please tell me you're trolling and you arent actually this naive and stupid.




All Europeans are fucking assholes and anyone who disagrees is secretly trying to help the Europeans retake the colonial nations.

PERIOD.

Why are we assholes?
The world would be better off with europeans in control, face it, we know whats best.

f4n4n
6th June 09, 12:08 PM
Do you listen to yourself? This is exactly what you want Turks and Muslims to do, and so does Lebell. You just don't think YOU should have to change to comfort THEM.
Orly? Well I guess the fact that we have turkish TV produced for them is not change to comfort them. The fact that you can have Islam class instead of Ethics or "religion" (which is christian) or jewish is not to comfort them. Dual citizenship is not to comfort them. Laws that allow close family members to move to Germany and get citizenship etc. faster is not to comfort them. Schools that teach classes in Turkish is not to comfort them. Yeah we totally do not meet half way.
You are a self righteous prick. Who talks from a supposed moral high ground.



I'm betting your girlfriend's family (are they Catholic? Lotta Germans are...) have crucifixes or somesuch. If we're expecting Muslims to meet us half way in public [since you've now contradicted yourself] then we should stop people having crucifixes and habits and whatnot in public too. Jews shouldn't be allowed to wear yamakuhs. You get what I'm getting at? "They should meet us half-way" means YOU HAVE TO MEET THEM HALF WAY. But you AREN'T willing to meet them half way, you want them to be more like you then the other way around, and even if you say right now you don't believe you're better than they are, you most certainly do, because you think they should be more like you and your nice Deutschbag ilk and less like Turkish Muslims.
No my girl friends family is Brazilian, not German and so is she. But yeah the family is cathlic. Like most of Brazilian families are. (I am in Brazil, since I am such a close minded racist prick, you know. And I expect them to do as I say / irony)
You miss the point, it is not about wearing the scarf(or any other symbol) in public, it is about wearing it while working for the state. *Faceplam*
Again you are an idiot!



Hey hey hey hey Lebell, here's a progressive Muslim society: FUCKING TURKEY. Indonesia ain't all bad either, considering they are STAUNCHLY pluralist at least at a legal level.
Oh wait, legally it is said that habits and scarfs are not allowed, the issue is that nobody enforced it that way but on a legal level... wait that would make your point invalid, sorry, carry on with your rant, I did not point out anything.



All Europeans are fucking assholes and anyone who disagrees is secretly trying to help the Europeans retake the colonial nations.

PERIOD.And now you finally said what you think. How does it feel to ride the moral high horse?

Yeah you intended this to be ironic? Yeah tell yourself that, makes you feel better, doesn't it?

Again, you see everything through your strange lens. But it is okay, you are entiteld to your opinion but then again I should scream blasphemy and start burning australian flags, we can't deal with irony or such things.

Lebell
6th June 09, 12:30 PM
dude...we should definately burn the australian flag!


i'll grow a beard and get back to you on this!

Cullion
6th June 09, 01:36 PM
Socratic, you're like a naive college radical version of Riddeck. Hush whilst the adults are talking.

Virus
6th June 09, 02:11 PM
03BW69dGH6k

moar; Salman discusses the phenomena known as "t3h r34l":

-2TaX01x9Mo

Lebell
6th June 09, 02:27 PM
jihadwatch.org you people.

Ajamil
6th June 09, 02:59 PM
The world would be better off with europeans in control, face it, we know whats best.

Not to derail, but isn't that what started WW1?

Lebell
6th June 09, 03:12 PM
so what?

Virus
6th June 09, 03:45 PM
I think Lubell started WW1.