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TheLordHumungus
8th June 09, 09:14 PM
I consider being a separate entity an important attribute in a human.

What do you consider more important?

Ajamil
10th June 09, 11:23 AM
Is a tapeworm a separate entity?

TheLordHumungus
10th June 09, 02:30 PM
When its attached to me?

No, I reserve the right to abort it.

Cullion
10th June 09, 04:52 PM
And people have had oh so much luck defining when life begins in the womb?

I know it starts before the birth, that's why I'm going with 3rd trimester kickers as my dividing line.

Kein Haar
10th June 09, 05:25 PM
So that means I can kill your wang?

FickleFingerOfFate
10th June 09, 06:53 PM
So that means I can kill your wang?



What did his computer do to you?


http://home.wxs.nl/~janvdv/images/Wang240.JPG

Harpy
10th June 09, 07:02 PM
I know it starts before the birth, that's why I'm going with 3rd trimester kickers as my dividing line.

Are you serious? I'm pro-choice but I think anything above 14 weeks (other than a medical or life threatening condition) starts becoming a moral dilemma for the individual as well as pointing towards a certain lack of responsibility and a careless attitude towards their power over terminating the pregnancy.

Just because abortion is legal in some places doesn't mean we still shouldn't provide counselling as well as other options to couples/individuals who are seeking to go through with it.

HappyOldGuy
10th June 09, 08:37 PM
Cullion wants a hard line where he can say absolutely no. Nothing wrong with that. Some people need a firm rudder. Others are more comfortable with drift.

14 weeks is awfully early tho. Barring special risks, I don't think they will usually do amnio before 16.

Antifa
10th June 09, 08:44 PM
What did his computer do to you?


http://home.wxs.nl/~janvdv/images/Wang240.JPG

Give me slow internetz

Harpy
10th June 09, 08:44 PM
That's just me personally HOG, I don't think its 'bad' or 'wrong' to do it later, just that the individual hopefully has thought things through.

I think I'd know within 3-4 months of conceiving whether I wanted to go through the pregnancy or not HOG. Don't you think that's quite a bit of time for people to make their mind up?

Antifa
10th June 09, 08:47 PM
That's just me personally HOG, I don't think its 'bad' or 'wrong' to do it later, just that the individual hopefully has thought things through.

I think I'd know within 3-4 months of conceiving whether I wanted to go through the pregnancy or not HOG. Don't you think that's quite a bit of time for people to make their mind up?

For some people but far from all...

Some people dont know until 3 to 4 months that they even are pregnant.

Like when Norplant fails.

or Deppo fails...

then you got a body full of hormones, no period anyway, a fetus stewing in endorphine soup followed by people second-guessing you.

Harpy
10th June 09, 08:52 PM
That's why I'm pro-choice Antifa.

Just saying that if I knew personally, I'd make a decision within the 4 month mark. Then again, I am at a life stage where things are pretty well in place for me to make an informed decision. This won't be the case for a lot of women so I'm not here to make the choice for someone else.

Antifa
10th June 09, 09:00 PM
That's why I'm pro-choice Antifa.

Just saying that if I knew personally, I'd make a decision within the 4 month mark. Then again, I am at a life stage where things are pretty well in place for me to make an informed decision. This won't be the case for a lot of women so I'm not here to make the choice for someone else.

You also live in a place that understands what preventative medicine is

Harpy
10th June 09, 09:12 PM
However, the availability of alcohol in said place sometimes cancels out the preventative methods.

Antifa
10th June 09, 09:18 PM
However, the availability of alcohol in said place sometimes cancels out the preventative methods.

No I meant in general.

Easy access to contraception is one thing.

Easy access to pregnancy testing is another.

Easy access to pre-natal care is yet another...

I notice places with socialized medicine try to keep you from getting sick in general rather than profiting off your suffering like we do here in the states.

Did you know that in most places in the US free pregnancy tests are only availible from "clinics" that are run by fundementalists and feed you propaganda while you wait.

Sometimes, when they think you would abort, they tell you that you are not pregnant when you are, so that you wait another month for another missed period so that you are past the deadline in your state.

I've caught them doing this. I go to these places armed with a dyke and a warm jar of pregnant womans urine. The girl then uses her urine-jar instead of her own urine. She goes in the back for counseling and says "Do you really think I'm going to have that freak's child?" and then her test comes back negative... just like that.

Harpy
10th June 09, 09:27 PM
Are you serious? That blows.

I like my medicine without the agenda thank you very much. I forget sometimes how things can be in certain parts of the US.

TheLordHumungus
10th June 09, 11:51 PM
Much of the US.

Harpy
11th June 09, 02:01 AM
Specifically with regard to abortion? Or are we talking other medically and ethically controversial issues?

TheLordHumungus
11th June 09, 02:09 AM
A and B.

Harpy
11th June 09, 02:12 AM
Please start a new thread. I'd like to explore the topic.

HappyOldGuy
11th June 09, 10:16 AM
That's just me personally HOG, I don't think its 'bad' or 'wrong' to do it later, just that the individual hopefully has thought things through.

I think I'd know within 3-4 months of conceiving whether I wanted to go through the pregnancy or not HOG. Don't you think that's quite a bit of time for people to make their mind up?
I'm just pointing out that it typically takes up to 18 weeks to get the results of basic genetic screening tests back. So, No, I guess?

TheLordHumungus
11th June 09, 10:32 AM
Please start a new thread. I'd like to explore the topic.

On what specifically? America's screwed up healthcare system? Or how fundies push their agenda in harmful ways?

Cullion
11th June 09, 01:18 PM
Are you serious? I'm pro-choice but I think anything above 14 weeks (other than a medical or life threatening condition) starts becoming a moral dilemma for the individual as well as pointing towards a certain lack of responsibility and a careless attitude towards their power over terminating the pregnancy.

Just because abortion is legal in some places doesn't mean we still shouldn't provide counselling as well as other options to couples/individuals who are seeking to go through with it.

I'm not talking about a viable foetus in the 3rd trimester being a moral dilema. I consider it to be homicide.

Fearless Ukemi
11th June 09, 01:21 PM
So does the law in every instance of the death to a fetus except when a doctor performs an abortion. This has puzzled me for while.

There is a documented case of a woman being charged with attempted murder for purposefully giving herself alcohol poisoning in an attempt to kill her fetus. I'll see if I can dig that up today.

Fearless Ukemi
11th June 09, 01:27 PM
She was charged and found not guilty. Ok, so no hypocrisy.

TheLordHumungus
12th June 09, 12:04 AM
So does the law in every instance of the death to a fetus except when a doctor performs an abortion. This has puzzled me for while.

There is a documented case of a woman being charged with attempted murder for purposefully giving herself alcohol poisoning in an attempt to kill her fetus. I'll see if I can dig that up today.

Yeah, when I cut somebody open they call it assault with a deadly weapon. But when a doctor does it, it's called surgery.

Hypocrites.

socratic
12th June 09, 07:49 AM
So does the law in every instance of the death to a fetus except when a doctor performs an abortion. This has puzzled me for while.

There is a documented case of a woman being charged with attempted murder for purposefully giving herself alcohol poisoning in an attempt to kill her fetus. I'll see if I can dig that up today.

You know, the constitution says born equal, not concieved equal. The unborn are constitutionally fair game.

Ajamil
12th June 09, 11:07 AM
Did you know that in most places in the US free pregnancy tests are only availible from "clinics" that are run by fundementalists and feed you propaganda while you wait.
I'd like to know your source on this. I can't imagine it's that hard to get to a planned parenthood. There were plenty in AZ, and while I only know of one in PA, I'm pretty sure I could name a few clinics to get this testing in the area that aren't fundie run.

TheLordHumungus
12th June 09, 11:33 AM
I'd like to know your source on this. I can't imagine it's that hard to get to a planned parenthood. There were plenty in AZ, and while I only know of one in PA, I'm pretty sure I could name a few clinics to get this testing in the area that aren't fundie run.

In the deep south or midwest?

Cullion
12th June 09, 01:57 PM
Yeah, when I cut somebody open they call it assault with a deadly weapon. But when a doctor does it, it's called surgery.

Hypocrites.

The difference is, when you cut somebody open you're trying to kill them. When a doctor does it they're trying to heal the person.

Except when they're doing it to a third trimester foetus during an abortion. Then they're trying to kill it.

You do understand this, right?

Antifa
12th June 09, 06:14 PM
I'd like to know your source on this. I can't imagine it's that hard to get to a planned parenthood. There were plenty in AZ, and while I only know of one in PA, I'm pretty sure I could name a few clinics to get this testing in the area that aren't fundie run.

Open the phone book.

Abortion Alternatives is listed ahead of Abortion Services.

You can get free testing in lots of places. However fundies set up these fake clinics across the street from major college campus, and across the street from some Abortion Clinics.

These places typically have billboard all over town that read something like this:

Pregnant? Scared?
There is help!
Free Pregnancy Testing.

The fool quite a few people.

Sun Wukong
12th June 09, 09:01 PM
Open the phone book.

Abortion Alternatives is listed ahead of Abortion Services.

You can get free testing in lots of places. However fundies set up these fake clinics across the street from major college campus, and across the street from some Abortion Clinics.

These places typically have billboard all over town that read something like this:

Pregnant? Scared?
There is help!
Free Pregnancy Testing.

The fool quite a few people.

I have seen this shit personally. identically as described two blocks from the girl's dorms, right across the street from campus.

HappyOldGuy
13th June 09, 12:00 AM
Hell, I have family who work at those things.

Cullion
13th June 09, 02:56 PM
lol, you almost make it sound like some kind of evil conspiracy.

Ajamil
13th June 09, 02:58 PM
Open the phone book.

Abortion Alternatives is listed ahead of Abortion Services.

You can get free testing in lots of places. However fundies set up these fake clinics across the street from major college campus, and across the street from some Abortion Clinics.

These places typically have billboard all over town that read something like this:

Pregnant? Scared?
There is help!
Free Pregnancy Testing.

The fool quite a few people.

I would expect AA to be above AS, or was that not a jab? Also, according to them, these places are helping, so except for the whole "not telling people they're pregnant" I wouldn't have a problem with this.


In the deep south or midwest?

Either, I just was looking to see if you had numbers, because while I don't I didn't think it was that hard to find such places (granted I have very little reason to find one).

EuropIan
14th June 09, 06:55 AM
PBS: Are Some Anti-Abortion Attacks Domestic Terrorism? (http://www.pbs.org/now/shows/524/index.html)

Cullion
14th June 09, 07:05 AM
Oh wait, I see the dialectic that 'they' are attempting to synthesize here.

EuropIan
14th June 09, 07:37 AM
I find it better than to trying to twist the narative by claiming convenience as the primary motor for late term abortions.

Cullion
14th June 09, 07:43 AM
I find it better than to trying to twist the narative by claiming convenience as the primary motor for late term abortions.

Depends what your definition of 'convenience' is. If you mean 'abortions of viable foetuses where it's not necessary to save the mother's life' that's already been demonstrated as quite common.

EuropIan
14th June 09, 08:08 AM
Depends what your definition of 'convenience' is. If you mean 'abortions of viable foetuses where it's not necessary to save the mother's life' that's already been demonstrated as quite common.
You are reading way too much into the word "viable"

Cullion
14th June 09, 08:16 AM
You are reading way too much into the word "viable"

I don't know why you think that.

EuropIan
14th June 09, 08:18 AM
A brain dead fetus is "viable"

Cullion
14th June 09, 08:28 AM
I'm not talking about cases where a brain dead foetus has been aborted.

EuropIan
14th June 09, 09:26 AM
I know, you're talking about when evil Dr. Malcious V. EvilStein willfully murders cute wittle baby Cutesy S. Snuzzinkins-chan.

Cullion
14th June 09, 09:29 AM
I'm talking about things that really happened Ian. Not some fantasy pastiche. Don't be so flippant about the death of a child. Is that Liberalism?

Antifa
14th June 09, 09:30 AM
Don't be so flippant about the death of a child. Is that Liberalism?

No. Thats Sociocide

EuropIan
14th June 09, 09:33 AM
I'm talking about things that really happened Ian. Not some fantasy pastiche. Don't be so flippant about the death of a child. Is that Liberalism?
Oh you mean like directly from the horse's mouth? (http://www.aheartbreakingchoice.com/kansasdelays.html)

EuropIan
14th June 09, 09:37 AM
The thing is, Cullion. Is that you are arguing against something that is truly horrible and saying it's wrong because it's horrible isn't really an argument.
when it happens , sure, many of these babies could have been conceived, there wouldn't really be anything after that. No celebration of life, no baby showers, perhaps a small photo journal chronicaling the last hours of something truly tragic. And while that's beautifull(,man). It isn't really necesary.

Cullion
14th June 09, 09:43 AM
Yes Ian, like this:-

http://www.operationrescue.org/noblog/whistleblowers-tell-abortion-horror-stories/

Do we have trade horror stories before you understand that many third trimester abortions are being performed on foetuses who wouldn't die within hours or days of being born?

Cullion
14th June 09, 09:45 AM
The thing is, Cullion. Is that you are arguing against something that is truly horrible and saying it's wrong because it's horrible isn't really an argument.

If you accept that a child is alive at a certain stage of foetal development and could enjoy life if not aborted, I don't understand how you could condone it's killing when it's not done to save another human life.

I can carry on posting horror stories to show you that this actually happens. Is that what you would like me to do in order to convince you it happens?

Or is it the case that you accept that it happens, but that you're okay with it for some reason I don't understand?

EuropIan
14th June 09, 10:07 AM
If you accept that a child is alive at a certain stage of foetal development and could enjoy life if not aborted, I don't understand how you could condone it's killing when it's not done to save another human life.

you want to keep doomed babies, so they could experience the outside world. However brief.

That's beautifull, man. I can admire that.
/no sarcasm)



I can carry on posting horror stories to show you that this actually happens. Is that what you would like me to do in order to convince you it happens?

The horror stories you did post was 1 case where the baby could have survived(briefly, the baby had Trisomy 22) and 1 case that was truly traumatizing but nothing about why it happenend. So yeah, more please.


Or is it the case that you accept that it happens, but that you're okay with it for some reason I don't understand?
well it's hard to see it any other way, when you have already defined that most late term abortions are simply cruel murder because you said so. I refuse to accept that. I accept that it can happen, though.

But that doesn't mean we should throw out the baby with the bath water.

So, yeah, you can accuse me of hedging my bets.

Cullion
14th June 09, 10:16 AM
you want to keep doomed babies, so they could experience the outside world. However brief.

That's beautifull, man. I can admire that.
/no sarcasm)

You seem to keep missing something here. They aren't all doomed. The 'medical necessity' criteria is fulfilled in many cases where the baby could survive to adulthood and live a fulfilling life, all it takes in many states that allow third term abortion is for 2 doctors to say that they think the mother would suffer permanent psychological damage. That's a bullshit reason for killing a child.



The horror stories you did post was 1 case where the baby could have survived(briefly, the baby had Trisomy 22) and 1 case that was truly traumatizing but nothing about why it happenend.#

The second case was a healthy baby that was the product of a rape. However distressing for the mother, I don't believe having a rapist as a father entitles your mother to kill you to expunge her own psychological revulsion.


So yeah, more please.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gianna_Jessen



I accept that it can happen, though.

Do you agree that Doctors shouldn't be allowed to perform third term abortions of babies that could survive to adulthood, conscious, when it's not necessary to save the mother's life?

According to a leak to Fox news from a source working in the Kansas healthcare system, every 3rd trimester abortion that was performed in Kansas in 1998 was signed off with the medical reason of 'irreperable psychological harm to mother'.

By all means refuse to believe that, I can't proove it further. I can, and already have, demonstrated that third trimester abortions of children which could survive to adulthood are being performed.



But that doesn't mean we should throw out the baby with the bath water.

Through this entire debate, I have very carefully and explicitly detailed the circumstances in which I think abortion should not be allowed.

Kiko
14th June 09, 11:07 AM
So the only way to determine being pregnant is to go to a clinic or doctor? Perhaps it's only in the really affluent areas where anyone can purchase a home pregnancy kit at, I dunno.. Walmart or CVS or.. um.. a grocery store? You tell me.

Having been pregnant, I also have to wonder just how convenient it is to remain so for one moment past the time of deciding you don't want to be. That obviously doesn't really include cases where the woman finds out she has cancer, or similar cases where pregnancy/delivery/motherhood would really be life-threatening.

I suppose I am pro-life at heart, but pro-choice as well. It's got to be up to each woman and her conscience - if she wants to kill her baby, she'll have to live with it for the rest of her life. I would hope the decision is made early and not repeatedly. It's also tragic that those who do abort aren't always counseled on the hormonal/emotional stress they'll deal with even after the procedure.

Just my two cents, I'm certainly in the minority here with a few of you. I don't want to argue, everyone's already chosen sides on this, haven't they?

TheLordHumungus
14th June 09, 11:38 AM
The difference is, when you cut somebody open you're trying to kill them. When a doctor does it they're trying to heal the person.

Except when they're doing it to a third trimester foetus during an abortion. Then they're trying to kill it.

You do understand this, right?

So as long as I have good intentions, I can cut ppl open and perform surgery on them? I thought the whole thing was about being licensed.

Also, until you present your irrefutable evidence to the contrary, I remain sure that doctors perform late term abortions for the purpose a person's health and well being.

And using the word "kill" in regards to a fetus presupposes that it is alive. We do not agree on that.

TheLordHumungus
14th June 09, 11:54 AM
Cullion, a quick question. When you say you have proven that children who could have lived satisfying lives to adulthood are being aborted only for the convenience of the mother, to which sources are you referring? The Gianna Jessen article on wiki is the only one you posted so far that is in any way verifiable. I like horror stories as much as the next guy, but claiming a tale is non-fiction requires evidence.

Cullion
14th June 09, 12:47 PM
Cullion, a quick question. When you say you have proven that children who could have lived satisfying lives to adulthood are being aborted only for the convenience of the mother, to which sources are you referring? The Gianna Jessen article on wiki is the only one you posted so far that is in any way verifiable. I like horror stories as much as the next guy, but claiming a tale is non-fiction requires evidence.

I've posted 3 first hand accounts now. Sure, only one had a name on it, but then most of your tales of abortions don't have names either. How many do you need?

Cullion
14th June 09, 12:51 PM
So as long as I have good intentions, I can cut ppl open and perform surgery on them? I thought the whole thing was about being licensed.

What's your point here, exactly?



Also, until you present your irrefutable evidence to the contrary, I remain sure that doctors perform late term abortions for the purpose a person's health and well being.

Late term abortions for 'wellbeing and health' don't cut it for me, because I'm talking about what I consider to be homicide. A woman's psychological wellbeing would never justify what I consider to be murder.



And using the word "kill" in regards to a fetus presupposes that it is alive. We do not agree on that.

Fair enough. I can't use logic to convince you of that.

Do you have children of your own by the way?

MaverickZ
14th June 09, 03:15 PM
Just my two cents, I'm certainly in the minority here with a few of you.
You mean a woman?

HappyOldGuy
14th June 09, 04:21 PM
I've posted 3 first hand accounts now. Sure, only one had a name on it, but then most of your tales of abortions don't have names either. How many do you need?

Let's look at your 3. The first is a baby who was going to effectively be born dead. I'm pretty sure that was acceptable even by your criteria. The second was a case of rape. I kindof agree with you that it's not okay to abort that late for that reason, but it sure as fuck doesn't qualify as convenience. The third case had a severe birth defect. CP is tricky, it can be anywhere from mild physical disability to totally vegetative. Again, it's not an acceptable reason for a third trimester abortion by my standards, but again it's not on the same planet as convenience.

So lets get back to having this discussion like grownups and accept that third trimester abortions are almost always tragic, messy, and morally difficult and dump this bullshit stereotype about moms squash games.

Cullion
14th June 09, 04:30 PM
Let's look at your 3.
I'm pretty sure that was acceptable even by your criteria. The second was a case of rape. I kindof agree with you that it's not okay to abort that late for that reason, but it sure as fuck doesn't qualify as convenience.

It doesn't matter, does it? We aren't playing around with language here, we're talking about whether homicide is justified or not.

Let me re-state this really bluntly:-

Between what I consider to be the life of a child (i.e. a third trimester kicking, smiling foetus that has a good chance of surviving to adulthood) and a woman's emotional distress, I will always want the law to protect that human life, over the adult's piece of mind, horrible though it may be for her. I hope she gets all the other support possible. But I do not want what I consider a child to be killed because it is a reminder that something terrible has happened.


The third case had a severe birth defect. CP is tricky, it can be anywhere from mild physical disability to totally vegetative. Again, it's not an acceptable reason for a third trimester abortion by my standards, but again it's not on the same planet as convenience.

The CP was caused by the abortion attempt.



So lets get back to having this discussion like grownups and accept that third trimester abortions are almost always tragic, messy, and morally difficult and dump this bullshit stereotype about moms squash games.

There are no bullshit stereotypes going on here.

I've just demonstrated that what many of the people here really didn't believe happened, happens. If you agree with me, that it should have been illegal, and that Dr. Tiller was one of the those doctors who performed such abortions then I have no further axe to grind.

There are many more accounts available like the ones I have produced. The idea that third trimester abortions are only legally performed for physical medical necessities is simply, provable untrue. Case closed.

Any further argument along the lines of 'yeah but what about cases that aren't like that' will be strawmen.

Kiko
14th June 09, 05:32 PM
You mean a woman?

That too, but I meant those who don't condone all abortions any time for any reason.

TheLordHumungus
14th June 09, 07:36 PM
I've posted 3 first hand accounts now. Sure, only one had a name on it, but then most of your tales of abortions don't have names either. How many do you need?

You've posted 3 accounts, yes. However I have no reason to believe that 2 of them weren't entirely fictional. At least the one can be looked into further, which I'm doing.

The only fact you've presented is the reason listed for many late term abortions being "for the mental health of the mother". This is the exact reason used in cases where the child would die upon being born or shortly thereafter. Of the legal reasons for late term abortions "baby will die moments after birth" isn't an option, IIRC. Now I can't tell you how many of the procedures performed "for the mental health of the mother" involved a child incapable of surviving outside of the womb. I can find stories on the internets, but without verification they're meaningless.

So far you haven't been able to provide me with more than one possibly true story from the 70's. I'm not saying your belief is provably wrong, I'm just saying without real evidence both of our opinions are subject to our own anecdotal evidence and experiences. This makes it hard to debate with any real hope of winning the other side over.

TheLordHumungus
14th June 09, 07:46 PM
What's your point here, exactly?

You made it sound as though the only difference between me and a doctor cutting into somebody was intent to heal. I was merely pointing out that even were I hell bent on helping you, the law and society at large wouldn't like me performing surgeries without being trained and licensed.

But yeah, to stay on topic.


Late term abortions for 'wellbeing and health' don't cut it for me, because I'm talking about what I consider to be homicide. A woman's psychological wellbeing would never justify what I consider to be murder.

Nothing I can do to change your opinion on that. Comes down to when we consider a fetus alive. And as you've been honest enough to admit that your concept is as arbitrary as I admit mine to be, we kind of stall out here.


Fair enough. I can't use logic to convince you of that.

Do you have children of your own by the way?

That I have a large hand in raising? Yes, two of them.

That I am the father of? None.

MaverickZ
14th June 09, 10:16 PM
That too, but I meant those who don't condone all abortions any time for any reason.
I'm just amazed by how much of this debate is conducted by men.

Harpy
14th June 09, 10:38 PM
Mav - I tried that argument as a joke in another 'Abortion' thread (eg. this is a male conspiracy to control the bodies of women). It didn't fly and someone brought up the p0rn industry.

TheLordHumungus
14th June 09, 11:27 PM
Mav - I tried that argument as a joke in another 'Abortion' thread (eg. this is a male conspiracy to control the bodies of women). It didn't fly and someone brought up the p0rn industry.

Just because it was a joke that didn't fly doesn't mean it isn't 100% true.

MaverickZ
15th June 09, 10:53 AM
Mav - I tried that argument as a joke in another 'Abortion' thread (eg. this is a male conspiracy to control the bodies of women). It didn't fly and someone brought up the p0rn industry.
Bringing up porn is probably as effective a thread killer as Godwin's Law.

Cullion
15th June 09, 01:11 PM
Nothing I can do to change your opinion on that. Comes down to when we consider a fetus alive. And as you've been honest enough to admit that your concept is as arbitrary as I admit mine to be, we kind of stall out here.

That I have a large hand in raising? Yes, two of them.

That I am the father of? None.

My perspective was much, much closer to yours before I had the experience of feeling my unborn children kicking and moving in reaction to my voice in their mother's belly. Of course, I can't assume it effects everybody else the same way.

Cullion
15th June 09, 01:12 PM
I'm just amazed by how much of this debate is conducted by men.


Well, this site only has a small female membership. There are plenty of pro and anti abortion blogs, sites and real world activism being conducted by women.

MaverickZ
15th June 09, 02:46 PM
Well, this site only has a small female membership. There are plenty of pro and anti abortion blogs, sites and real world activism being conducted by women.
Currently, there are 8 male and 1 female supreme court justices. If Sotomayor gets nominated, there will be 7 male and 2 female justices.

74 out of 438 members of the House of Reps are women.
16 out of 100 members of the Senate are women.

If I was more educated on and vested in the subject I would come up with a more coherent point. But right now, all I'm noting is that in my observation the majority of discussion is done by men. And that doesn't seem right to me. Joss Whedon would be so proud of me.

TheLordHumungus
15th June 09, 03:51 PM
My perspective was much, much closer to yours before I had the experience of feeling my unborn children kicking and moving in reaction to my voice in their mother's belly. Of course, I can't assume it effects everybody else the same way.

As I've never had that experience, I couldn't say. I've of course felt fetuses kick, but never one I was responsible for fertilizing.

Shawarma
15th June 09, 05:08 PM
Bet each fetus knocked you the fuck out, girly-man.

Zendetta
15th June 09, 05:15 PM
My dad tells me he knew I'd be into karate when he got into bed, snuggled up next to my pregnant mom, and i gave him a kick in the gut.

don't get complacent, old Man! /Oedipus

Shawarma
15th June 09, 05:18 PM
I have a similar story. When I was four, I KTFOed my mother with a plastic ankylosaurus.

It was at that point my mother became very, very pro late-term abortion.

Zendetta
15th June 09, 05:33 PM
I know what dinosaur that is - nature basically designed it to be a giant club.

Good choice of blunt objects.

TheLordHumungus
15th June 09, 10:22 PM
Bet each fetus knocked you the fuck out, girly-man.

That would explain why I'm all about it being legal to abort those uppity little shits.


I have a similar story. When I was four, I KTFOed my mother with a plastic ankylosaurus.

It was at that point my mother became very, very pro late-term abortion.

The fact that it took her that long is evidence to me she had patience worthy of canonization.