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View Full Version : Censored photos reveal sexual abuse at Abu Ghraib



Steve
30th May 09, 12:28 AM
This is a bit perplexing. Why would you photograph something like this and then hand it over to your commanding officer? Sure, rape in prisons and whatnot is an old hat but in this modern age is it still a tactic that is employed? Well, now that I think about it, I supposed I shouldn't be that surprised...

Curious to hear from any military folks on the posibility of what is claimed in this article.

Abu Ghraib abuse photos 'show rape'
Photographs of alleged prisoner abuse which Barack Obama is attempting to censor include images of apparent rape and sexual abuse, it has emerged.


At least one picture shows an American soldier apparently raping a female prisoner while another is said to show a male translator raping a male detainee.

Further photographs are said to depict sexual assaults on prisoners with objects including a truncheon, wire and a phosphorescent tube.

Another apparently shows a female prisoner having her clothing forcibly removed to expose her breasts.

Detail of the content emerged from Major General Antonio Taguba, the former army officer who conducted an inquiry into the Abu Ghraib jail in Iraq.

Allegations of rape and abuse were included in his 2004 report but the fact there were photographs was never revealed. He has now confirmed their existence in an interview with the Daily Telegraph.

The graphic nature of some of the images may explain the US President’s attempts to block the release of an estimated 2,000 photographs from prisons in Iraq and Afghanistan despite an earlier promise to allow them to be published.

Maj Gen Taguba, who retired in January 2007, said he supported the President’s decision, adding: “These pictures show torture, abuse, rape and every indecency.

“I am not sure what purpose their release would serve other than a legal one and the consequence would be to imperil our troops, the only protectors of our foreign policy, when we most need them, and British troops who are trying to build security in Afghanistan.

“The mere description of these pictures is horrendous enough, take my word for it.”

In April, Mr Obama’s administration said the photographs would be released and it would be “pointless to appeal” against a court judgment in favour of the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU).

But after lobbying from senior military figures, Mr Obama changed his mind saying they could put the safety of troops at risk.

Earlier this month, he said: “The most direct consequence of releasing them, I believe, would be to inflame anti-American public opinion and to put our troops in greater danger.”

It was thought the images were similar to those leaked five years ago, which showed naked and bloody prisoners being intimidated by dogs, dragged around on a leash, piled into a human pyramid and hooded and attached to wires.

Mr Obama seemed to reinforce that view by adding: “I want to emphasise that these photos that were requested in this case are not particularly sensational, especially when compared to the painful images that we remember from Abu Ghraib.”

The latest photographs relate to 400 cases of alleged abuse between 2001 and 2005 in Abu Ghraib and six other prisons. Mr Obama said the individuals involved had been “identified, and appropriate actions” taken.

Maj Gen Taguba’s internal inquiry into the abuse at Abu Ghraib, included sworn statements by 13 detainees, which, he said in the report, he found “credible based on the clarity of their statements and supporting evidence provided by other witnesses.”

Among the graphic statements, which were later released under US freedom of information laws, is that of Kasim Mehaddi Hilas in which he says: “I saw [name of a translator] ******* a kid, his age would be about 15 to 18 years. The kid was hurting very bad and they covered all the doors with sheets. Then when I heard screaming I climbed the door because on top it wasn’t covered and I saw [name] who was wearing the military uniform, putting his **** in the little kid’s ***…. and the female soldier was taking pictures.”

The translator was an American Egyptian who is now the subject of a civil court case in the US.

Three detainees, including the alleged victim, refer to the use of a phosphorescent tube in the sexual abuse and another to the use of wire, while the victim also refers to part of a policeman’s “stick” all of which were apparently photographed.

-------------------------------

Link. (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/5395830/Abu-Ghraib-abuse-photos-show-rape.html)

Ug.

Dagon Akujin
30th May 09, 01:00 AM
These have been known about for years. Yet still, Repubs tell me all the time that it wasn't torture there. I say "So, if I raped your kid and then broke some light-bulbs up your ass, that'd just be a normal day for you?"

Much of Taguba's original report was very scarcely covered in the news because it was insanely shocking what our troops were actually willing to commit there. Come on though, as if the pictures of our troops forcing Muslim men to give other men blowjobs wasn't enough.

Yiktin Voxbane
30th May 09, 01:42 AM
Pics or GTFO !

Sun Wukong
30th May 09, 05:25 AM
This kind of continued disgrace on our country is something that disgusts me very deep down in my gut.

Cullion
30th May 09, 09:02 AM
I think the most controversial thing in Taguba's report wasn't the revelation that low-ranking troops in a hostile environment went nuts and started abusing the local civilians (can happen with any country's troops when they're under enough pressure for a prolonged period, as far as I can tell), it's the suggestion that some part of the chain of command, possibly stretching up as far as Rumsfeld tacitly sanctioned these abuses as interrogation techniques.

I expect the fallout will be some token prosectutions of the publicly indentifiable enlisted personnel who actually committed the abuses, maybe a junior officer or two for 'failing to properly supervise'. There will be solemn proclamations about a 'few bad apples', and all will be right with the world.

I doubt we'll ever see the headline 'when you bible belt fucking morons were whooping about 'mission accomplished' as if you'd just completed a level on a video game, the people you'd just re-elected ordered your sons and daughters to rape the shit out of teenage prisoners. for god.'

Lebell
30th May 09, 09:04 AM
zomg...people get raped in pris0n?!
who would have known!

somebody should do something asap!
yes we can!

think of the inmates!

Cullion
30th May 09, 09:07 AM
zomg...people get raped in pris0n?!


Well, not usually by the guards, with other guards laughing and taking pictures.

Maybe in Holland.

Lebell
30th May 09, 10:33 AM
oh cullion...i think that when you are being raped you care little about wether its a guard or an inmate.

bobyclumsyninja
30th May 09, 10:36 AM
This story is sickening. Greatest country in the world, no doubt. As long as you live in it, and aren't it's victims.

mrblackmagic
30th May 09, 10:47 AM
Republican: "Pics or it didn't happen."

HappyOldGuy
30th May 09, 11:22 AM
I expect the fallout will be some token prosectutions of the publicly indentifiable enlisted personnel who actually committed the abuses, maybe a junior officer or two for 'failing to properly supervise'. There will be solemn proclamations about a 'few bad apples', and all will be right with the world.


http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,170603,00.html


Well, not usually by the guards, with other guards laughing and taking pictures.


I used to be that innocent *sniff*

Lebell
30th May 09, 11:56 AM
This story is sickening. Greatest country in the world, no doubt. As long as you live in it, and aren't it's victims.

we dont know if it is the greatest, remember the rapist was technically speaking egyptian.
ghehe!!

Cullion
30th May 09, 11:59 AM
I used to be that innocent *sniff*

I wasn't talking about your little weekend S&M roleplaying club, De Sade.

fes_fsa
30th May 09, 12:15 PM
oh cullion...i think that when you are being raped you care little about wether its a guard or an inmate.
ummm... guards are supposed to actually GUARD the prisoners. as in keep them safe and let them do their time. not just keep them locked up.

it's an abuse of position and a violation of trust.

Lebell
30th May 09, 12:16 PM
im sure guards have needs too.
and nagging wives at home.

fes_fsa
30th May 09, 12:19 PM
it doesn't matter what they NEED.

they have to do their JOB.

raping prisoners is not part of it.

Lebell
30th May 09, 12:20 PM
the world is bigger then just amurikah you know...

fes_fsa
30th May 09, 12:23 PM
where the hell is that coming from?

Lebell... you shouldn't be posting in Ground Zero.

if you're not posting a troll, you bait people into derailing the thread so that they can debate what YOU want them to debate.

this is the SERIOUS folder and you don't take it serious at all.

it's very disrespectful to the originator of this thread and to Sociocide.

Lebell
30th May 09, 12:25 PM
hm...i like it when you post like that...
pm me what you are wearing ok?

Steve
30th May 09, 12:33 PM
It's okay, fes. Lebell obviously has some experience in this matter.

fes_fsa
30th May 09, 12:35 PM
yeah. at the laundromat, i told him to guard my clothes.

when i came back, it was as if everything had been starched.

Cullion
30th May 09, 01:47 PM
Take it as a compliment.

Antifa
30th May 09, 01:53 PM
I find a few things interesting about all this:

1) General Anthony Taguba basically suicided his career writting that report. Not that there was much to destroy. His posting as brigader general was as the head of the Army's Day Care command. Yup... the kindergarden king of America's armed forces.

2) General Janis Karpinski, who was the MP brigade commander in charge of the whole prison system in Iraq got her career ended as a result of this. However, they were looking for a reason to get rid of her anyway. She had requested steps be taken to cut down on the number of rapes of female Soldiers by male Soldiers in country. Her suggestions included having lights placed along the walkways going to and from showers and having male and female shower facilites placed further apart.

She clashed with the theater commander over this. The Abu-Garrib fallout was the get back she got for opening her mouth on the rape epidemic.

3) The interogations that all this torture were order by private military contractors who were and are outside of the law, Personel from CAIC and L-3/Titan Systems have not been fired or prosecuted. The Titan Systems employee was not even made to leave country but simply transfered to another prison inside Iraq.

Thus, enlisted personel took the fall for "work" they were directed to do.

4) Sgt Graner, pictured in the following photo, worked as a prison guard at the maximum security facility housing Pennsylvainia's Death row. Think he never did anything bad while on duty in America? Does torture have place in the normal policing, justice and corrections functions of the American state?

http://www.craphound.com/images/abu9.jpg

5) The actual taking of the photographs was also likely part of the intelligence gathering function of the prison. The pictures constitute good blackmail material in an Islamic society and thus the prisoners continue to be victimized by being forced to give information and be snitches for fear the photos would be released in their communites.

6) Next photo. All of these men were involved. None of them were prosecuted. Who are they? Dont tell me you dont have duty records to show who was on-site.

http://www.legitgov.org/graphics_used/white_chair_at_abu_ghraib_051404.jpg


7) The "we wont release the photos because it might endanger the troops" line is hogwash. It would endanger the contractors and politicians much more than the troops who are already in danger.

What they are really saying is that such a release would further undermine support for the war at home and abroad. When the whole war was built on lies, a further revelation might undermine the troops willingness to take a dive for contractors who are getting rich on torture and profiteering.

8) At what point to we admit the torture is part of normal America in war (http://www.counterpunch.org/valentine.html) and peace (http://www.truthinjustice.org/jon-burge.htm)? Is a nation democratic if it finds itself incapable of policing without torture and going to war without massive war crimes?

Lebell
30th May 09, 01:57 PM
question, how do you blackmail someone with photos of him wearing a bag over his head?

couldnt he just say: thats not me. ?

Cullion
30th May 09, 01:57 PM
Antifa, do you feel that this torture was policy coming from the Bush cabinet ?

I have a hunch and have seen hints that it was so, but it's not something I can prove.

Do you ever read Karen Kwiatowski's blog about the takeover of key Pentagon intelligence and policy departments by inexperienced but ideologically zealous neoconservative placemen?

Cullion
30th May 09, 01:58 PM
question, how do you blackmail someone with photos of him wearing a bag over his head?

couldnt he just say: thats not me. ?

Those wouldn't be the photos they used. They'd use the ones where he, or she, is giving a blowjob or find a frame where their scream looks like a smile when they're being raped.

Antifa
30th May 09, 01:59 PM
question, how do you blackmail someone with photos of him wearing a bag over his head?

couldnt he just say: thats not me. ?

There are non-bag photos

Antifa
30th May 09, 02:03 PM
Antifa, do you feel that this torture was policy coming from the Bush cabinet ?

I have a hunch and have seen hints that it was so, but it's not something I can prove.


Yes and no.

Torture has been used in every one of America's overseas adventures since the second world war.

We train Latin American Soldiers in it's use at School of the Americas. It has been used in every conflict in which we have been offically or unoffically involved.

That being said, I think the Bush cabinet has it as officall policy, which is somewhat different. Because now the arguements are essentially about "normallizing" things which have always happened.




Do you ever read Karen Kwiatowski's blog about the takeover of key Pentagon intelligence and policy departments by inexperienced but ideologically zealous neoconservative placemen?

Briefly.

Lebell
30th May 09, 02:15 PM
Those wouldn't be the photos they used. They'd use the ones where he, or she, is giving a blowjob or find a frame where their scream looks like a smile when they're being raped.

you scare me now....how do you know these things?

Antifa
30th May 09, 02:17 PM
you scare me now....how do you know these things?

Common Sense. Availible for $2.95 at K-Mart

Lebell
30th May 09, 02:19 PM
call me naive but i couldnt come up with sick shit like that.
im a good person, i have good thoughts.

Antifa
30th May 09, 02:20 PM
call me naive but i couldnt come up with sick shit like that.
im a good person, i have good thoughts.

I'm a multiple torture survivor, I know how these people work.

Cullion
30th May 09, 02:21 PM
You were tortured in jail ?

Steve
30th May 09, 02:22 PM
call me naive but i couldnt come up with sick shit like that.
im a good person, i have good thoughts.

Sure, just not common sense.

Cullion
30th May 09, 02:22 PM
you scare me now....how do you know these things?

Because, as you say, the hooded photos are no use for blackmail. If I had somebody sexually violated for torture and blackmail reasons, those are the kinds of photos I would use.

Antifa
30th May 09, 02:26 PM
You were tortured in jail ?

Several times before I was 18. Twice in my 20s. Once in an ambulance by policemen and then again in the emergency room afterwords.

Almost everybody that is a comrade of mine has been through something similar at some point.

Cullion
30th May 09, 02:35 PM
Well, I can see why you're a revolutionary anarchist then.

Were they doing this for demented shits and giggles, or was there something specific?

Antifa
30th May 09, 02:36 PM
Well, I can see why you're a revolutionary anarchist then.

Were they doing this for demented shits and giggles, or was there something specific?

Twice for information. the rest for shits and giggles.

Steve
30th May 09, 02:47 PM
Were you raped? Just trying to keep on topic.

Antifa
30th May 09, 03:00 PM
Were you raped? Just trying to keep on topic.

No. But I was badly fucked up.

There is a spot on my head where my hair wont grow back and I have some residual damage to my right elbow from one incident. I also got three ribs cracked from the kicking but those healed. That was when I was in my 20s.

The things that happened when I was kid were actually somewhat worse. One incident I think I came pretty close to being killed. 1 nurse saved my ass. I was in the hospital in custody after the first 2 beatings (I was pistol whipped in an alley and then dragged to the street on my face by my feet and then beaten in the ambulance on the way to the hospital while being questions. One EMT participated) and they would hold my mouth and punch me in the stomach while the nurses were out of the room.

The Doctor refused to treat me because I was a minor and they didnt know my name. the police said my name was important because I was a ward of the state and so they didnt need to know shit. They said this to the doctor in a threatening manner 2 inches from his face. Later a nurse got my families phone number quietly while she was changing the bandages on my head. The offical cause of the wounds on my head (both sides) was that I slipped.

Likely I would have been killed to cover it up had she not called my family.

I also got into a fight in juvenille hall that nite which resulted in another beating from the guards and a trip to the hole for the remainder of my stay.

Good times.

Lebell
30th May 09, 03:01 PM
I'm a multiple torture survivor, I know how these people work.

you were tortured in an american cel?

wtf...what kinda stuff did they do to you, if you'ere okay talking about it that is.

Antifa
30th May 09, 03:04 PM
you were tortured in an american cel?

wtf...what kinda stuff did they do to you, if you'ere okay talking about it that is.

I was tortured once when I was 14, once when I was 16 and once when I was 17. Once when I was 20 and once when I was 22.

Also I was beaten in public a couple of times as a teenager and not arrested.

Dont act suprised. this shit is normal.

Lebell
30th May 09, 03:28 PM
im not american, you do realise that right?
how were you tortured?

Japuma
30th May 09, 03:28 PM
I was tortured once when I was 14, once when I was 16 and once when I was 17. Once when I was 20 and once when I was 22.

Also I was beaten in public a couple of times as a teenager and not arrested.

Dont act suprised. this shit is normal.

Now what was the other side of this story? What were you doing to provoke them?

Antifa
30th May 09, 03:40 PM
Now what was the other side of this story? What were you doing to provoke them?

I was wondering when some appologist motherfucker would speak up.

When one is handcuffed and in custody, and is defenseless, and is in fact a child, how does one "provoke" systematic beatings?

Case one: Refusing to answer questions as is my fucking right under the constitution.

Case two: running from the police.

Case three: Same as case one.

Cases four and five: participation in totally non-violent demonstrations.

You got something else to say motherfucker? Or are you going to wisely choose to shut your fucking pie-hole?

HappyOldGuy
30th May 09, 03:51 PM
In my experience on both sides of the criminal justice system, I have seen petty sadists who like to bounce people off of cars of smack them down for the smallest reason. They are sometimes hard to tell from the careful consciencious types who are charged with enforcing a system that uses violent coercion by design to control anti-social types, drunks, and the mentally ill.

I have never seen any sort of coordinated system to abuse political dissidents.

I have absolutely never seen anything like the level of violence used in abu graib. I know it does happen, but it's incredibly rare.

I am not saying anything about anifas experience. He may very well have hit the jackpot more than once.

Antifa
30th May 09, 04:16 PM
In my experience on both sides of the criminal justice system, I have seen petty sadists who like to bounce people off of cars of smack them down for the smallest reason. They are sometimes hard to tell from the careful consciencious types who are charged with enforcing a system that uses violent coercion by design to control anti-social types, drunks, and the mentally ill.

I have never seen any sort of coordinated system to abuse political dissidents.

I have absolutely never seen anything like the level of violence used in abu graib. I know it does happen, but it's incredibly rare.

I am not saying anything about anifas experience. He may very well have hit the jackpot more than once.

I'd like to go a little further actually. I dont feel like I've hit the jackpot. It might be that where I grew up ahd more violent police than other places. But I've been to jail more than a dozen times for various protest activities and sometimes they are decent, other times.... Brutal as fuck.

I'm having a hard time talking about this, to be honest I'm feeling a little triggered and I've been pacing around the room and chain smoking. I'm gonna go on with it because I feel like its important. The reason why it is important for me to talk about it is that I hope that decent people will come to understand how the world actually is and not shut their eyes, be silent and or make excuses.

Before my father took up his "writing" career, he was a lazy self-employed CPA. His brother, my uncle was a police captain. Most of his clients were cops. I grew up around them bragging to my father about what they did to this or that person. I remember walkin in to visit Pops one day when a county park policeman (the county had 3 departments: Sheriffs, Copunty Cops and County Park Cops, triple the bribe money) was bragging to my dad about how he and his partner had caught some guy at nite in a park assfucking a great dane. "So we kicked his ass and held him down and had the dog fuck him see how he likes it"...

Okay hold the phone. Lets get this straight, you caught a guy fucking a dog, and to "teach" him that dog fucking is bad, you had a dog fuck him? Then you brag about it to your accountant and its all normal? What fuckin planet are these people from? Really?

Whe my father passed away we were all at his house eating in between veiwings. I'm sitting around a table with my step brother and my male 1st cousins and my female 1st cousins husbands (Matty, Jimmy, Jimmy, Jonny, Jimmy and George) and my uncle (Jimmy) is telling his son (also a cop named Jimmy) who was holding his son (named Jimmy) on his lap:

"Now when you get them in the cell son, just kick them till they shit themselves, dont use the plunger, when you do the preasure groups all upset"

Everybody looks at me with a "dont say a fuckin word, we just burried your father we can toss you in the hole right after him"

But again, head check. Your are at your brothers funeral. This is a time to make rape jokes in front of both your mother and your grandson? Hello?

Needless to say I have spoken with these people since.

I grew up in a very tight knit immigrant community. All of my relatives had lived there since comming over from Europe 3 generations ago. Because of the beatings my uncle had passed out to the parents friends of mine I was not allowed in quite a few households.

The abuse, in my view is systemic and smiled upon in polite society.

So far as politics goes

Naerly Every person I person I've worked with politically has been abused in jail to some degree at least once.

Your right HOG that there is not an ORGANIZED campaign to pass activists out some beatdowns. But, since pigs have power and people got none, if you have unpopular veiws you can pretty much expect to get the shit kicked out of you in jail... thats just how it goes.

Anyway... more soon.. I need a short break

Lebell
30th May 09, 04:17 PM
Antifa, just how exactly were you tortured?
a beating or with devices or sadistic techniques etc?

Antifa
30th May 09, 04:21 PM
Antifa, just how exactly were you tortured?
a beating or with devices or sadistic techniques etc?

The first time I was hung by my handcuffs from a peg on the wall with my feet just barely touching the ground while the cops took turns punching me in the gut and screaming "who were you with motherfucker"

mostly beatings. once they held my eyes open and pepper gassed me in them in between beatings.

Cullion
30th May 09, 04:26 PM
I grew up in a very tight knit immigrant community. All of my relatives had lived there since comming over from Europe 3 generations ago.

Irish American?

Antifa
30th May 09, 04:29 PM
Irish American?

My bullshido rule is that I dont give to much identifying information so that I can be google and tracked by fascists.

More importantly they would likely find my dear darling ma first and thats something that actually scares me.

Just like I've left out place names from the stories for a reason.

So I wanna sort of guide you away from those kinds of questions

But no, not Irish.

Cullion
30th May 09, 04:30 PM
fair enough.

Did you ever attempt to report these abusers to higher-ranks who may not be party to the same practices?

Antifa
30th May 09, 04:56 PM
fair enough.

Did you ever attempt to report these abusers to higher-ranks who may not be party to the same practices?

Hell No! Less painful to just go killself. These fucks will go after your family for that shit. You'd be arrested on the spot for filing a false police report and then they'd go rape your mother.

When I was 18, I was out with some friends, younger teenagers who had been drinking. I was on probation so I decided to get away from them. I went home.

There was this kid, who we called John Sage, who looked and dressed kinda like michael jackson in his "bad" phase. Sage was stumbling wasted.

The kids were on a side street that was curvy, cobblestoned, one way and single lane with a 10 mph speed limit. A 1980s jeep wrangler took the turn at about 25 mph and caught Sage in the face with one of its big rectangular side mirrors. broke his hip and turned his rather good looking face into a moonscape. the driver was a drunk off duty cop.

The police arrived at my 1 room apartment the next morning to try and get me to admit to purchasing alcohol for minors. I had a full beard at 18 and could so they needed to cover for their brother officer by making this as bad as possible.

Sage's mother sued. She was a nurses aid but did not have sufficient insurance to cover the medical bills. The cops would just pull her over on the way to work every day and break her headlight or tail light or take her liscense plate off her car and write her a ticket until she couldnt drive to work anymore. She lost everything.

This is how pigs operate. They always protect their own no matter what.

Japuma
30th May 09, 05:10 PM
I was wondering when some appologist motherfucker would speak up.

When one is handcuffed and in custody, and is defenseless, and is in fact a child, how does one "provoke" systematic beatings?

Case one: Refusing to answer questions as is my fucking right under the constitution.

Case two: running from the police.

Case three: Same as case one.

Cases four and five: participation in totally non-violent demonstrations.

You got something else to say motherfucker? Or are you going to wisely choose to shut your fucking pie-hole?

Calm your overly paranoid, delusional ass down.
Case 1.... why were you being questioned?
Case 2... Yeah, you should catch a beating for that shit.
Case 3... see above.
Case 4 and 5. Like these dumb motherfuckers?:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSBC5sjBcCA&feature=related

Point being, something brought on the altercation. I don't know what it was or why you got your beating, but there is always another side to the story. Most cops aren't evil and they don't look to go out of the way to "oppress" fuckwits like you. BTW... you aren't as important as you think you are.

Antifa
30th May 09, 05:28 PM
Calm your overly paranoid, delusional ass down. .

Not paraniod. Not delusional. Totally calmly thinking about throat fucking you to death with my boot.



Case 1.... why were you being questioned? .

Doesnt matter. Right to remain silent. Period.



Case 2... Yeah, you should catch a beating for that shit. .

Or maybe you should run so you dont catch a beating



Case 3... see above..

You know what. Fuck you. Your the reason for firing squads.



Case 4 and 5. Like these dumb motherfuckers?:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSBC5sjBcCA&feature=related


Point being, something brought on the altercation. I don't know what it was or why you got your beating, but there is always another side to the story. Most cops aren't evil and they don't look to go out of the way to "oppress" fuckwits like you. BTW... you aren't as important as you think you are.

Too pissed off to even answer this stupid bullshit. Had you said that to my face you stupid little bitch the EMTs would be trying to figure out how to unstitch your servered manhood from your fucking mouth.

Shawarma
30th May 09, 05:38 PM
Even if Antifa had eaten the babies of the entire police force it still wouldn't give the cops the right to beat his ass during interrogations or hand out unnecesary beatdowns during arrest unless he was actively fighting them.

PS: Antifa pretty much IS my uncle. He's done all of this, although he's been been luckier about not catching police beatdowns.

fes_fsa
30th May 09, 05:40 PM
i don't think japuma's calling you a liar or saying you deserved it.

it's just that the type of police that you've dealt with make up such a small percentage of cops that when someone DOES come out and say "i got my ass kicked by cops", the first reaction is disbelief. for people who've never experienced something like that, they need a "reason" to explain away why a trusted authority figure would do something like that.

that being said... i'm really sorry that happened to you as a kid, Antifa. there are some people that deserve a beating... but not people who exercise their rights non-violently.

Shawarma
30th May 09, 05:44 PM
No, I think "lol, enjoy your beatdown, hippie" is exactly Japuma's point.

fes_fsa
30th May 09, 05:46 PM
maybe that's how you read it, but to me, it didn't come across as deliberate assholism.

Antifa
30th May 09, 05:50 PM
i don't think japuma's calling you a liar or saying you deserved it.

it's just that the type of police that you've dealt with make up such a small percentage of cops that when someone DOES come out and say "i got my ass kicked by cops", the first reaction is disbelief. for people who've never experienced something like that, they need a "reason" to explain away why a trusted authority figure would do something like that.

that being said... i'm really sorry that happened to you as a kid, Antifa. there are some people that deserve a beating... but not people who exercise their rights non-violently.

The price of all that is that protest more me sometimes no longer goes down non-violently.

I dont complain about taking a beating or a couple of hits when I'm fighting the police. Fair is Far and war is war.

So, to be clear, I only list things as torture if I was already in custody and not comabtive in any way

That being said I should also be clear that I'm not that kind of hippy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yf_IIyIp36A

Antifa
30th May 09, 05:52 PM
maybe that's how you read it, but to me, it didn't come across as deliberate assholism.


came across as typical assholism pig=appoligist bullshit to me.

Which is easy from behind a keyboard.

like the jerks who drove through my little hippy town yesterday throwing stuff and shouting insults...

All I had to say was "always from a moving car"

fes_fsa
30th May 09, 05:56 PM
don't get me wrong, Antifa. he posed his questions like an insensitive prick.

but i don't think it's deliberate. most people need the shit explained, because they can't believe it happens in America.

Antifa
30th May 09, 06:06 PM
don't get me wrong, Antifa. he posed his questions like an insensitive prick.

but i don't think it's deliberate. most people need the shit explained, because they can't believe it happens in America.

No, the fucker said I deserved it,


Case 2... Yeah, you should catch a beating for that shit.

You see thats the thing about torture, it dehumanizes you.... can make you into not such a nice person.

And around not so nice people some punk bitch motherfuckers need to watch what they say. Got that Japuma?

fes_fsa
30th May 09, 06:14 PM
you said that in case two, you ran from the cops.

it's pretty common knowledge that if you run from the cops, they beat you down.

you were a kid when it happened, so you probably didn't know any better and you definitely didn't deserve it.

but generally speaking, if you run from the cops you should expect an ass whooping.

Antifa
30th May 09, 06:18 PM
you said that in case two, you ran from the cops.

it's pretty common knowledge that if you run from the cops, they beat you down.

you were a kid when it happened, so you probably didn't know any better and you definitely didn't deserve it.

but generally speaking, if you run from the cops you should expect an ass whooping.

running from the cops is a misdemeanor called evading the police. When you commit a crime, you go to court, and you are punished by a judge.

In a society of laws, judges are the ones empowered to punish. Not policemen.

So what you are saying is, its pretty much common knowledge that the police have taken upon themselves a power reserved for judges and are expected to punish people in violation of the law they have sworn to uphold.

That all being said, yes its comon knowldge that you catch a beatdown for running, but to be its comon knowledge that you catch a beatdown for standing still, so why not run?

Kein Haar
30th May 09, 06:30 PM
I was tortured once when I was 14, once when I was 16 and once when I was 17. Once when I was 20 and once when I was 22.

Also I was beaten in public a couple of times as a teenager and not arrested.

Dont act suprised. this shit is normal.

Why, your ranks should be swelling then. No need for revolution, just referendum. Christ.

Howevever, shennanigans and histrionics is the simpler explanation, frankly.

Antifa
30th May 09, 06:36 PM
Why, your ranks should be swelling then. No need for revolution, just referendum. Christ.

Howevever, shennanigans and histrionics is the simpler explanation, frankly.

fuck you too pig.

oh wait....

fuck you too skinhead pig.

fes_fsa
30th May 09, 06:37 PM
it's part of a cop's job to subdue a criminal and bring them into custody.

this sometimes entails using force.


...but to be its comon knowledge that you catch a beatdown for standing still, so why not run?

because MOST cops wouldn't lay a finger on you, apart from cuffing you, if you just stand still and do what they tell you. however, MOST cops WILL use force if you run.

Kein Haar
30th May 09, 06:49 PM
fuck you too pig.

oh wait....

fuck you too skinhead pig.

I didn't call you a liar. Just someone who slipped Occam a mickey.

Tortured a bunch of times, then saying it's work-a-day happenstance.

Meanwhile everyone else is all like..."Uh...really? Oh. I guess I'm on borrowed time then!"

That's all.

Now how about that referendum. Bring out all the torture victims to really shake things up. It'll be a land slide. No need to recruit any more latchkey kids....to...do....whatever it is...you...uh...do.

Cullion
30th May 09, 07:10 PM
I've been arrested 3 times and never got even close to tortured. They were actually pretty professional and polite with me, and one of those times I was being a complete, complete asshole. I am talking about the rural UK though.

Antifa
30th May 09, 07:30 PM
it's part of a cop's job to subdue a criminal and bring them into custody.

this sometimes entails using force.



because MOST cops wouldn't lay a finger on you, apart from cuffing you, if you just stand still and do what they tell you. however, MOST cops WILL use force if you run.

Didnt catch the beatdown in the course of running and struggling.

Caught the beatdown after cuffed. and on the way to the station, and at the station.

Antifa
30th May 09, 07:40 PM
I didn't call you a liar. Just someone who slipped Occam a mickey.

Tortured a bunch of times, then saying it's work-a-day happenstance.

Meanwhile everyone else is all like..."Uh...really? Oh. I guess I'm on borrowed time then!"

That's all.

Now how about that referendum. Bring out all the torture victims to really shake things up. It'll be a land slide. No need to recruit any more latchkey kids....to...do....whatever it is...you...uh...do.


Actually most of the "latchkey kids" come from homes that are just fine. Most of them are motivated to extend the ideals about social justice they learned from their folks.

A few of them come from families that I would call horrific. But no more so than any other social grouping.

And I'd like to see you chickshit pig motherfucker do whatever it is I do at the odds I do it at.

I mean you fucks never bring it on even numbers, you always wait till you got more. Never work alone, always have supieror firepower, pull so much overtime you make bank, and then whine like little kids when you cant have more.

We've never not been outnumbered and outgunned and we've brought it pretty goddamn good a number of times.

You all blast off the rubber bullets and conc grenades like everyday is the fourth of july then cry when you get a cut on your hand. It's like a major tragedy and newsworth everytime one of you fucks eats a flying brick.

All that training and gear and backup... But face it, if you had to be on my side of the fence you would be to chickenhearted to set foot in the fucking street much less bring it.

Because inside you are all a bunch of fucking cowards and thats why you need to feel like your little penises are big by dropping whoopass on people after you got them back to station,

Antifa
30th May 09, 08:06 PM
Why, your ranks should be swelling then. No need for revolution, just referendum. Christ.

Howevever, shennanigans and histrionics is the simpler explanation, frankly.

actually you know what piggybitch I decided to go play on youtube and see how much fun I could have. Found some stream of conciousness goodness from around the country and I really didnt have to look hard

Reporter Arrested in NJ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcN2YqQ8YhM

more chickenshit cop crap

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_tVUJnCCMk

seattle cops beat up a 15 year old girl

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VHP6wAceqI

NYPD vs a handicapped man

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0rDGbhtFLY

a little seattle riot porn

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ze5rnVYlpxw

I can do this all day piggybitch...

Japuma
30th May 09, 08:26 PM
I most def. would ask you the same shit to your face, because you believe what you believe and I what I believe and we can discuss it like people. If you wanna crack off at me for asking a logical question then get fucked. I wasn't trying to be an asshole until you fired off like a fucking crack addict whore whose last stash got stolen. You act like a fuckin spoiled child who think the whole world revolves around them. I'm sorry you got your ass beat, but there is ALWAYS an other side of the story.

Antifa
30th May 09, 08:38 PM
I most def. would ask you the same shit to your face, because you believe what you believe and I what I believe and we can discuss it like people. If you wanna crack off at me for asking a logic question then get fucked. I wasn't trying to be an asshole until you fired off like a fucking crack addict whore whose last stash got stolen. You act like a fuckin spoiled child who think the whole world revolves around them. I'm sorry you got your ass beat, but there is ALWAYS an other side of the story.

Wow. just Wow...

I could start by telling you that crack addicts dont have "stashes"... Crackheads dont plan for the future.

Anyway you full body pie-hole, I'll respond, then I'm going to the fucking bar.

So you said yadda yadda I believe yadda yadda you believe.

Motherfucker, you believe. I know because I was there and you were... where were you in 1986? Shitting your diapers?

So quit crying because somebody said that all police are not worthy of unconditional belief respect and handjobs....

Yadda yadda two sides of the story yadda yadda. Look you little jackboot licking appoligist bitch, there is no justification, at any time, ever for attacking restrained defenseless people.

So, If you believe otherwise, please tell the class what justification exist for attacking restrained defenseless people?

Because they wont answer your questions? Awesome... you fail at civics.

Shawarma
30th May 09, 08:42 PM
Puma, you were acting like a fucking asshole. Don't act offended when people snap at you for doing so. Unless, of course, calling people fuckwits is reasoned debate in your neighbourhood.

Steve
30th May 09, 09:04 PM
Puma, you were acting like a fucking asshole. Don't act offended when people snap at you for doing so. Unless, of course, calling people fuckwits is reasoned debate in your neighbourhood.

LOL, pot meet kettle.

Shawarma
30th May 09, 09:08 PM
Quiet, Jewboy.

Antifa
30th May 09, 09:11 PM
my last tought for the nite...

Can we go back to the topic of AbuGarib please?

thanks

Steve
30th May 09, 09:34 PM
Quiet, Jewboy.

*snort*

My flat nose is trying to laugh at you.

HappyOldGuy
30th May 09, 09:44 PM
Antifa, I understand you wanting to change the subject, but it would be interesting to talk about it with you some time. I'm very curious about the where and such.

GuiltySpark
31st May 09, 12:12 AM
Resistance to interrogation course. 2 months of getting pissed on slapped in the face, punched kicked and mind fucked AND you get paid for it. Who wouldn't want that :)



Terrorists are assholes. If the ROEs at the time allow it I would have no reservations about shooting one in the back unarmed while they are running away. (If they surrender that's a different story)

Torturing them in prison like that? That's fucked up and weak.
Their not going to get any good info AND the damage it does to the war effort on a national lelev is just incredable.

US Military fucked up.
US soldiers dishonoured themselves.

It's like a kid shitting in the sandbox. When it happens you stop everything clear everyone out, clean up the shit and punish the kid/s who did it.

Kein Haar
31st May 09, 12:25 AM
Actually most of the "latchkey kids" come from homes that are just fine. Most of them are motivated to extend the ideals about social justice they learned from their folks.

A few of them come from families that I would call horrific. But no more so than any other social grouping.

And I'd like to see you chickshit pig motherfucker do whatever it is I do at the odds I do it at.

I mean you fucks never bring it on even numbers, you always wait till you got more. Never work alone, always have supieror firepower, pull so much overtime you make bank, and then whine like little kids when you cant have more.

We've never not been outnumbered and outgunned and we've brought it pretty goddamn good a number of times.

You all blast off the rubber bullets and conc grenades like everyday is the fourth of july then cry when you get a cut on your hand. It's like a major tragedy and newsworth everytime one of you fucks eats a flying brick.

All that training and gear and backup... But face it, if you had to be on my side of the fence you would be to chickenhearted to set foot in the fucking street much less bring it.

Because inside you are all a bunch of fucking cowards and thats why you need to feel like your little penises are big by dropping whoopass on people after you got them back to station,

Funny...you're the guys who know the police operate with restraint despite all the objective advantages you list. In fact, you 100% count on it. That's why you can act like destructive little drama-queens at those droll urban hootenannies, against superior physical firepower, and then hit the internet shortly thereafter....and then plan the next one, in which you know you'll come out fine.

Jeez, how does that happen?

Based on whatever the hell else you're saying here, my cowardly self would absoloutely tell you the following on "the street", even without back up.

"Sir, I'm going to call you an ambulance....just to check you out, ok? You're not making a lot of sense right now, and let's just rule out a head injury or bad mix of medications, ok? Yeah, they'll be here shortly...why don't you have a seat."

And I would honestly hope you'd get the help you need.

http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/ambulatory+schizophrenia

AAAhmed46
31st May 09, 01:18 AM
I've been arrested 3 times and never got even close to tortured. They were actually pretty professional and polite with me, and one of those times I was being a complete, complete asshole. I am talking about the rural UK though.

While i hope canadian police act along the same lines as british, it may be a cultural difference.

Almost every "COPS SUXXXX" story i read is from the states.

Ajamil
31st May 09, 01:19 AM
....and then plan the next one, in which you know you'll come out fine.

Not to make this any more heated, but are you blatantly saying that everything he's been posting and getting worked up over is a lie because you want him more pissed or because you actually believe it?

Kein Haar
31st May 09, 01:24 AM
I"m saying he's deluded for being shocked and offended at the prospect that others may doubt the frequency and degree of that which he calls personal instances of torture.

Furthermore, he says torture is systemic.

Ok, I'm listening. Define common.

Especially since I'm supposed to be the one doing it and in a position to see it.

One would think I'd have caught a glimpse by now.

I suppose he doesn't believe ME when I say I've never seen it, have never done it, and agree that it's abominable.

Have I heard about it? Sure....on the news like everyone else.

Agendas get in the way of reality. Antifa is clearly agendacized.

GuiltySpark
31st May 09, 01:27 AM
PTSD

AAAhmed46
31st May 09, 02:19 AM
I love my country.

I hope we never change.

Were totally awesome.

Lebell
31st May 09, 04:15 AM
in the end of the day i believe there are roughly two type of policedudes.
1 type joins because they really want to make society a better safer place.

no2 does it because of status and machismo.

my experiences with the police is that the no1 group vastly outnumbers the no2 group.

Fearless Ukemi
31st May 09, 08:40 AM
I wanted to be a cop briefly just for the "company car" I could drive without having to obey the traffic laws and to confiscate weed from teenagers. Does that fall under number 1 or number 2?

I matured a little bit and decided not to pursue it because those are obviously not good reasons to become a cop. I also don't have a thick enough skin for the job either because I get pissed off pretty easily.

bobyclumsyninja
31st May 09, 08:41 AM
It's terrifying to have predatory exchanged with those who are supposed to protect you. What happened in that prison, in Iraq, and others like it, will haunt this country for ever. There is no erasing the shame of those events.

Most of those people have(or had) nothing to do with terrorism, or even armed struggle. So many innocents were swept up, and jailed, as has been admitted by many soldiers, that 'we' as a nation, were certainly torturing innocents, by the tens or hundreds of thousands. This was all done under the US flag. The whole time, pundits on American TV are pounding the populace with how grateful the people there will be, for our 'help' in protecting...well...I guess their oil ministry.

Wrong place wrong time should never equal a glow rod up your ass.

Dogs in your face, simulated drowning, forced prolonged standing/positioning, beating, forced nakedness, it's all monstrous.

That DICK Cheney is on the news, and still being taken seriously, and not in a tiny cell, is obscene. Everyone's so terrified of him, he gets to do what he wants, up-to and including running the country immediately following the 9-11 attacks.

The pass that the prior administration gets, involves calling what is obviously torture, enhanced interrogation. Everyone knows what it is. That it's up for debate, whether or not the term is deserved, is the biggest pass anyone could give anybody.

How should American troops/civilians be treated, in the parts of the world that are hostile to 'us'? How far do they have to look, for justification to do all of those bestial things, to american soldiers/civilians? or their own?

Those abuses set the stage, for a new round of horrors.

Sun Wukong
31st May 09, 08:54 AM
People are in general a mixed bag of angels and monsters. We cannot see clearly what kind of person is before us behind a badge or otherwise until they have demonstrated their propensities for right or wrong in every scenario.

The thing that I think scares people the most about police, is the ease that their power can be abused. I mean, who hasn't had a cop treat them with contempt once or twice? It makes us forget about all the police that treated us fairly and professionally because it simply stands out to us in a much more impacting way.

Similarly, for every shit sucking criminal dickwad, rapist, junkie or vile personality police have to deal with, they must also carry the cross of revulsion at their fellow man propensity to disappoint.

I don't doubt that some cops work over people in hand-cuffs who are almost completely defenseless; I can with some measure of suspicion say that it's seems more common than the average citizen expects because some police even do it on camera from time to time even when they know cameras are recording.

As well, I don't doubt that the common man is generally far more fucked up than sheltered lives would tend to believe.

This is not apologetics, but I feel that the real culprit of Antifa's experience wasn't the police but rather generally shitty and worthless people conveniently wielding a badge.

An unknown person with the ability to inflict harm must be viewed with a level of suspicion upon meeting, which is not to say, this is how it should be, but rather an observation of the unfortunate nature of human beings.

bobyclumsyninja
31st May 09, 09:03 AM
In reference to the thread, we irradiated their entire nation. Depleted Uranium, in our armor piercing shells, will be giving them higher cancer rates for EVER. Wasn't the fear of irradiating our soil the reason for 'defensively' pummeling an unrelated nation into disease, and chaos?

White phosphorous in Falujah, blackwater mercs, letting the national museum be looted (I wept). We destroyed their culture, their history (bigger than the post colonial assignment of Iraq), and degregated their women, children, old and infirm, and especially their young males.

The Taliban rocketed some irreplaceable treasures, to world condemnation. The people in the US still are oblivious to the obvious paralell with what was lost in the national museum. As an art historian, I can't put into words, what it meant for that to happen.


AG was one, in a long line of horrific acts of 'evil' that occured...and sadly will now continue. When the pics break...the international criminal court, is going to get some support from around the world, like we haven't yet seen.

It's time for all war criminals to be tried, and not allowed to retire in wealth and privilage (we let a lot of them do that here, it seems).

War for profit IS the NWO, not an international court. Get Cheney, Bush, Gonzales, and others in there, for some propper treatment, otherwise, we all share in this, whether we want to or not.

Cullion
31st May 09, 09:19 AM
No senior western politicians is ever going to face the International court. It just won't happen.

Lebell
31st May 09, 10:42 AM
No senior western politicians is ever going to face the International court. It just won't happen.

yeah the problem is one could trial our ' heroes' like Winston Churchill(groce negliagance), Bomber Harris ( crimes against humanity,carpet bombing of civilian areas) Dutch politicans and generals in charge of the dutch army during the indonesian independance war ( mass executions of civilians) Kissinger, Bush sr and junior etc etc.

one mans hero is another mans terrorist.

Adouglasmhor
31st May 09, 10:59 AM
I've been arrested 3 times and never got even close to tortured. They were actually pretty professional and polite with me, and one of those times I was being a complete, complete asshole. I am talking about the rural UK though.

Never been tortured in mainland UK, been beaten in the ranks on demos a couple of times in London. Had some no violent summary justice from the local beat cops when i was a teen (they rounded a load of us up and took us out to the countryside at night so we had a couple of hours walk back).
I washowever pretty badly beaten for nothing by some UDR irregulars in Belfast in the late 80s called a Fenian Bastard, spat on, hooded, stamped on, dragged by my hair, knelt on and bounced on till I wet myself , thrown out the back of an armoured land rover with my wrists and ankles tied with cable ties, constantly punched and kneed . Their sergeant was showing off to a new greenfinch (female searcher) on their patrol.

Fuck knows how many people this prick and his arselickking crew had done this to in the past . In this case their luck had more than run out.

After a what turned out to be under an hour but felt like over two to me they took me to the anti terrorist holding and processing unit at Castlerea - where the desk sergeant recognised me and asked what had happened. UDR tosspot started to speak and RUC bloke says no I'm talking to big Dougie. bit off a career stopper for him beating up an Army Royal Signals operator, but how many times had the sad bastard got away with it in the past? How many people turned to joining parmilitary groups in the province because fuckwits like him felt the need to bolster their egos with abusing power and fucking about when they should have been doing their job. That's how all the shit started in the first place in my oppinion. The greenfinch was in tears and shaking, best bit of cockblocking I have ever done in my life.

I wanted an inquiry and a full court martial for all involved but they were allowed to resign and nothing official ever went down about it. It went down well where I was doing OPs that "The Scottish lad got a terrible beating from the Brits and he was doing nothing".

Adouglasmhor
31st May 09, 11:07 AM
yeah the problem is one could trial our ' heroes' like Winston Churchill(groce negliagance), Bomber Harris ( crimes against humanity,carpet bombing of civilian areas) Dutch politicans and generals in charge of the dutch army during the indonesian independance war ( mass executions of civilians) Kissinger, Bush sr and junior etc etc.

one mans hero is another mans terrorist.

I love the Verzetsmuseum (Dutch Resistance Museum) in the Damm, I admire they parallel the anti Nazi resistance in the Netherlands with the anti Japanese resistance in Indonesia and the Indonesian Independence campaign after the war. Anyone going to Amsterdam should see it. There was black guy from the Netherlands active for nearly 4 years in the resistance before he got caught and murdered, how hard is that.

Ajamil
31st May 09, 11:09 AM
letting the national museum be looted (I wept).

First I've heard of this - US armed forces looted a museum?

Adouglasmhor
31st May 09, 11:19 AM
PTSD

That's when your partner says you wake up in the night screaming and shouting fire control orders and you know nothing about it and wonder why you are tired and jumpy, done that, counseling worked for me.

bobyclumsyninja
31st May 09, 11:32 AM
yeah the problem is one could trial our ' heroes' like Winston Churchill(groce negliagance), Bomber Harris ( crimes against humanity,carpet bombing of civilian areas) Dutch politicans and generals in charge of the dutch army during the indonesian independance war ( mass executions of civilians) Kissinger, Bush sr and junior etc etc.

one mans hero is another mans terrorist.
Dresden was a disgrace, but came during many mass bombings. Mass killings in indonesia were blacked out in the western press, too much...but yes, that most def. qualifies. So do chem weapons in Falujah...and mass torture for political gain. It's not so whack, the idea of trying them in front of the world.

The us refuses to take part, because there are people who easily qualify, who are being sheltered here. That doesn't mean it's not appropriate, just that it's being avoided.

Take for instance, contractor immunity in iraq, it wasn't that some of the mercenaries didn't deserve prosecution, it's just that they had immunity through official channels.

We have a professional army for good reason. Bush and co. outsourced it to the unaccountable, and perverted the national security apparatus, to suit their immediate political needs. Untold people died and suffered, and our national image is on par with Putin's russia. That's what Obama is building from, a shot image, and no global confidence in consistent statesmanship.

Milosevic was tried rightly, and there are many others. (Dead Churchill not being a good example of who to get, there are more than enough living domestic monsters to choose to apologize for)

Lebell
31st May 09, 11:42 AM
my main point is that the whole idea of some international tribunal is laughable as long as certain people from certain factions are not allowed to file complaints and others are.

the int. tribunal we have now is nothing more then a tool so the powers that be can grab some other country by the balls.

same goes for the UN.
there are rules, but they dont apply equally for everyone.
rules are there only to enforce on the factions you want to enforce them on, its a tool in the game.
nothing to do with justice.

Antifa
31st May 09, 01:21 PM
Antifa, I understand you wanting to change the subject, but it would be interesting to talk about it with you some time. I'm very curious about the where and such.

I'm okay with that.

PM.

Antifa
31st May 09, 01:36 PM
my main point is that the whole idea of some international tribunal is laughable as long as certain people from certain factions are not allowed to file complaints and others are.

the int. tribunal we have now is nothing more then a tool so the powers that be can grab some other country by the balls.

same goes for the UN.
there are rules, but they dont apply equally for everyone.
rules are there only to enforce on the factions you want to enforce them on, its a tool in the game.
nothing to do with justice.

Wow. First time I've said this Lebell but you hit the nail on the head.

We all know that you cant take an American to court in the Hague right?

Cullion
31st May 09, 01:40 PM
No reason you should be able to. Americans shouldn't be bound by laws they didn't vote on. Rumsfeld and Bush have both violated American laws, so they should be tried under those.

Antifa
31st May 09, 01:48 PM
I suppose he doesn't believe ME when I say I've never seen it, have never done it, and agree that it's abominable.
.

Well... I want to believe that statement. I'll take it at face value.

That being said, would you be willing to admit that it does happen, and that cops who (a) dont do it and (b) think its abominable also dont OFTEN speak up about it?

Kein Haar
31st May 09, 02:03 PM
Sometimes cops from Chicago and Cook County roll through MY town (and/or live there) and treat ME like shit if I happen to stop them...so I can't imagine the contempt they express to a citizen. Then again, I don't have a complete grasp on the citizens they deal with. Mazes of piss-soaked projects and that which sounds like hummingbirds buzzing over your head.....when it's really someone taking pot-shots at the flashing lights from the high rises.

I can see that stress manifesting in brutality. I can also see a really warped personality being drawn to a multi-year guerilla war like that.

I also have no reason to doubt duly convicted police offenders. Likewise, I have no reason to doubt the duly exonerated...unless I'm personally involved and simply know otherwise.

But I...don't...see it. And I'm regular old night-time patrol. If tempers are to be lost, that's when it'd happen.

Shawarma
31st May 09, 02:59 PM
No reason you should be able to. Americans shouldn't be bound by laws they didn't vote on. Rumsfeld and Bush have both violated American laws, so they should be tried under those.
IIRC, it's in the US constitution that the US should adhere to international treaties it agrees to, which includes the Geneva convention. Hence American war criminals should indeed be tried by an international court of law.

Antifa
31st May 09, 03:00 PM
IIRC, it's in the US constitution that the US should adhere to international treaties it agrees to, which includes the Geneva convention. Hence American war criminals should indeed be tried by an international court of law.

Right, but the court in the Hague is also established by a treaty which the US did not sign. Wonder why?

2 words: first one is "Henry"

bobyclumsyninja
31st May 09, 03:12 PM
First I've heard of this - US armed forces looted a museum?

What is beyond question, is that when US forces demolished the infrastructure of Iraq...the oil ministry was apparently the most important thing to protect...and the museum, and any other number of buildings weren't important at all.

The art of the ancient world, is often our best link to it's history. To lose work on that scale, is a tragedy of literally historic proportions.

It gets buried in the horrible news of everything else the 'coalition' did to that country. Over there, millions of lives are shattered, and history unwound. Over here, armored cars were running over photocopies of the french flag, and congress was eating freedom fries.

Sometimes the US really does act like the infant, on the world stage, that it is, in terms of age.

Shawarma
31st May 09, 03:23 PM
The museum was looted by Iraqis. Not really the fault of the US, IMO. They had more pressing business to attend to than all that fag culture stuff.

TheLordHumungus
31st May 09, 06:52 PM
No reason you should be able to. Americans shouldn't be bound by laws they didn't vote on. Rumsfeld and Bush have both violated American laws, so they should be tried under those.

Shouldn't it be part of some larger social contract? If I'm bound by the laws of my country despite the fact that I didn't vote on them, why should said country be exempt from international laws because it wasn't personally satisfied with them?

Ajamil
31st May 09, 07:20 PM
Because you live on US soil, and thus under its laws and protections. There is no world government that countries live under...unless I suppose the genomic realities of human characteristics.

TheLordHumungus
31st May 09, 10:10 PM
it's just that the type of police that you've dealt with make up such a small percentage of cops

Where are you getting your numbers from? I hear ppl say this all the time and you've repeated it a couple times here. Is there something you have supporting this assertion?

TheLordHumungus
31st May 09, 10:14 PM
Because you live on US soil, and thus under its laws and protections. There is no world government that countries live under...unless I suppose the genomic realities of human characteristics.

I'd say the UN and World Courts have as valid a claim over the nations of the world as the US government does over me.

HappyOldGuy
31st May 09, 10:18 PM
I'd say the UN and World Courts have as valid a claim over the nations of the world as the US government does over me.

About 2/3 or the countries in the world are dictatorships. Yay international majority rule.

socratic
31st May 09, 10:26 PM
I'd say the UN and World Courts have as valid a claim over the nations of the world as the US government does over me.

You are confusing 'should be' with 'is'. The UN as a political organisation is fundamentally weak because membership (into the Security Council, at least) is hard to come by and those in the council have power over all those who aren't. The UN's a giant stalemate of vetoes and frustrated agendas.

Both your government and mine is right now abusing human rights. Notably the Declaration of Human Rights was pretty much the first thing the UN ever did, and I guess in many ways it is its magnum opus. Since neither my country nor yours has actually had any ramifications for defying it and the subsequent covenant, it goes to show just how weak the UN really is.

TheLordHumungus
31st May 09, 10:48 PM
You are confusing 'should be' with 'is'. The UN as a political organisation is fundamentally weak because membership (into the Security Council, at least) is hard to come by and those in the council have power over all those who aren't. The UN's a giant stalemate of vetoes and frustrated agendas.

Both your government and mine is right now abusing human rights. Notably the Declaration of Human Rights was pretty much the first thing the UN ever did, and I guess in many ways it is its magnum opus. Since neither my country nor yours has actually had any ramifications for defying it and the subsequent covenant, it goes to show just how weak the UN really is.

Agreed. I was only speaking of them having as valid a claim, not the ability to enforce said claim.

TheLordHumungus
31st May 09, 10:49 PM
About 2/3 or the countries in the world are dictatorships. Yay international majority rule.

What do we count as? Oligarchy, plutocracy, other?

HappyOldGuy
31st May 09, 10:53 PM
What do we count as? Oligarchy, plutocracy, other?

We are a collective, 350,000,000 strong, dedicated to fucking up your world.

TheLordHumungus
1st June 09, 12:24 AM
We are a collective, 350,000,000 strong, dedicated to fucking up your world.

Killing is our business.....and business is good?

fes_fsa
1st June 09, 09:25 AM
indeed.