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View Full Version : My epic YouTube debate over the Vietnam War



Wounded Ronin
27th May 09, 07:16 PM
For the past few days for shits and giggles I've been involved in a YouTube debate over the Vietnam War. This afternoon, it took a turn for the hilarious and I felt I ought to share it here.

From http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFtdjFoeNic&feature=email

It all started when "irishrebelalert" made the following comment:



go to vietnam, laos and cambodia, see the people, see how they are happy, see how despite the horror america inflicted on them they have no hatred or ill will for you.

maybe you americans should learn from this.


Initially wanting to not really get drawn into a YouTube debate, I decided to make what I thought was a pretty neutral and self-evident statement, posting as "Memiap":



I know a Vietnamese fellow who lives in the US right now because the North Vietnamese massacred his family. Real-life situations are more complex than the ridiculous morality play that people try to make them into after the fact.


I didn't expect to get a reply, but I did:



so how does that make it right what the united states did?

you invaded that country on a lie, and fucking bombed it cak to the stone age, as you did to laos and cambodia too.

the real life situation TODAY is that vietnam still has areas that are no go due to the chemicals you dropped there, the people are still casualties 40 years later. That my friend is the real life situation.


Since this guy was suggesting that I was somehow out of touch with "real life", I decided to point out what should have been the self-evident historical reality that any time there is a war more than likely there will be "bad things" done to varying extents by people from all sides:



Because it doesn't make any sense to attribute all the suffering that occured in the Vietnam war to only one side, i.e. the United States. It is downright laughable to imply that ever since the North Vietnamese took over everyone has been "happy"; it is a historical fact that many South Vietnamese were tortured in "re-education" camps, and my friend as a child watched NVA show up with rifles one day and massacre a building full of government functionaries in cold blood. The NVA weren't angels.


That seemed to *really* piss the guy off, and he posted the comment below which I think is what made this YouTube debate truly LOL-worthy. Apparently this man all along was referring to some alternate world Vietnam War occuring on Saturn instead of the one happening on Earth. Apparently there was no North and South Vietnam, but only Vietnam, which the US randomly attacked. But my favorite was point number three... (bolds mine)



1.The u.s had no right to be there and exacerbate the situation, you make it out to be a war between equal sides, it was not. The u.s were the clear illegal aggressors.
2.The people are happy, as far as living their everyday lives.They have moved on, they hold no ill will towards the nation that slaughtered them.
3.Why are you so defensive? The u.s comitted terrible crimes, why must you take away from the victims by opening youre mouth. Shut up and have some fucking humility will you


As it stands right at this moment, I refrained from making a sarcastic joke about defensiveness and statement number three, and simply posted the following:



See, now you're just repeating ideology, and not even historical fact. It is a historical fact that North Vietnam invaded South Vietnam and that they were two seperate nations with seperate governments. It is a historical fact that the North Vietnamese systematically tortured and killed many South Vietnamese. It is a historical fact that many South Vietnamese fled from Vietnam and that many ended up in UNHCR refugee camps. Nobody is being defensive in this conversation except for yourself.


Now I'm wondering whether this guy's statement number three was his last sort of defensive flare-up over his core beliefs about the world being threatened, or if he'll just keep going on like the Energizer bunny as long as I keep replying.

Aaranar
27th May 09, 07:21 PM
http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/listen_to_yourself.png

Phrost
27th May 09, 11:01 PM
They actually implemented that feature a year ago.

danno
28th May 09, 01:50 AM
they were actually better than 99% of youtube comment posters. a real diamond in the rough you found there.

3moose1
28th May 09, 02:34 AM
Yeah, i read that comic, and then posted a comment on youtube,

it had an "audio" feature, which read it back to you

i lol'd.

EuropIan
28th May 09, 02:56 AM
Vietnam has war scars. Sucks for vietnam.


And land mines suck, but Americans aren't to blame for that I think.


See, now you're just repeating ideology, and not even historical fact. It is a historical fact that North Vietnam invaded South Vietnam and that they were two seperate nations with seperate governments. It is a historical fact that the North Vietnamese systematically tortured and killed many South Vietnamese. It is a historical fact that many South Vietnamese fled from Vietnam and that many ended up in UNHCR refugee camps. Nobody is being defensi in this conversation except for yourself.
As far as I remember, America was pulled into the conflict partially by the french (waaaah le indochine! le help) and partially because of adherence to the truman doctrine. Unfortunately, the bay of tonkin incident does cast US involvement in a different, less favorable, light.
This, and the parallels to the irak war produces some hefty white guilt.

socratic
28th May 09, 06:08 AM
Vietnam is still a poor-as-hell shithole and the Communist government didn't exactly fuckin' help.

Anyony remember the cover to that Nirvana album with the Vietnamese monk immolating himself in protest? Yeah, they sure were happy with their government alright.

The problem with any nation with a totalitarian uprising is that until the new government collapses under its own weight, everyone who hated it loudly enough to get noticed is dead so all that's left are the nice puppets who don't say anything to get themselves executed.

Neildo
28th May 09, 07:09 AM
that was not nirvana dude

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d38/darksavior_1990/rage_against_the_machine_rage_again.jpg

Neildo
28th May 09, 07:11 AM
also:

http://paulturounetblog.files.wordpress.com/2007/12/eddie-adams_execution.jpg

socratic
28th May 09, 07:56 AM
Huh, I knew Rage used it but I have no idea where I got the idea of Nirvana using the pic. Oh well.

Out of curiosity, are there any former communist countries that aren't poor, corrupt, sometimes dangerous shitholes?

Neildo
28th May 09, 08:11 AM
northern china? it's poor and kinda corrupt but not really that dangerous.

socratic
28th May 09, 08:41 AM
northern china? it's poor and kinda corrupt but not really that dangerous.

China has no occupational health and safety, I swear to god they must lose millions of domestic tourists over cliffs and unfenced stairways (on mountain sides) daily.

Shawarma
28th May 09, 10:08 AM
Vietnam is still a poor-as-hell shithole and the Communist government didn't exactly fuckin' help.

Anyony remember the cover to that Nirvana album with the Vietnamese monk immolating himself in protest? Yeah, they sure were happy with their government alright.
Actually, I'm fairly sure that monk set himself on fire to protest the oppression of Buddhism by the capitalist Christian government lead by whatshisname, not to protest communism.

Craigypooh
28th May 09, 10:12 AM
Out of curiosity, are there any former communist countries that aren't poor, corrupt, sometimes dangerous shitholes?

East Germany

TM
28th May 09, 12:31 PM
To the best of my knowledge eastern Germany has not caught up with the western part economically.
As a Vietnam veteran I have to say that your comments were perfectly reasonable and thoughtfull Ronin. The other poster was kind of foaming at the mouth with broad generalizations. I still have no desire to go back.

Craigypooh
28th May 09, 12:37 PM
To the best of my knowledge eastern Germany has not caught up with the western part economically.

But you wouldn't describe it as a "poor, corrupt, sometimes dangerous shithole".

Spade: The Real Snake
28th May 09, 01:09 PM
I think this guy has the same response for an Iraq War argument.

Shawarma
28th May 09, 01:40 PM
Correction: What Ronin is facing IS his Iraq war argument with gooks inserted instead of towelheads.

HappyOldGuy
28th May 09, 02:17 PM
Correction: What Ronin is facing IS his Iraq war argument with gooks inserted instead of towelheads.

In the 80's it would have been the FSLN instead. Unless he was talking about nicaragua, in which case the guerillas would have been illegal thugs masquerading as resistance fighters.

elipson
28th May 09, 02:18 PM
Originally Posted by TM
To the best of my knowledge eastern Germany has not caught up with the western part economically.
The only reason it's not as shitty as it was is because the Soviet Union fell apart, Gerany re-unified, and the EU started pouring investment into the country.

So basically by embracing capitalism wholesale.

Spade: The Real Snake
28th May 09, 02:21 PM
In the 80's it would have been the FSLN instead. Unless he was talking about nicaragua, in which case the guerillas would have been illegal thugs masquerading as resistance fighters.

or he could have added medical students to the mix.

socratic
29th May 09, 09:33 AM
Actually, I'm fairly sure that monk set himself on fire to protest the oppression of Buddhism by the capitalist Christian government lead by whatshisname, not to protest communism.

Learn something every day.

Wounded Ronin
28th July 09, 07:01 PM
Holy crap, this guy has been posting again! I just got an email saying he responded to my comment. OMG, I don't really have time to do so, but on some level I feel tempted to continue to respond to him.

Anyway, here is his response to my last comment:



never defended the north, where have i said that????

the u.s invaded vietnam on a fabrication, that is historical evidence. I will forward it to you if you wish.


But his stuff that is funnier is presumably replying to other people because I didn't get emails about them: (bolds mine)



it doesnt matter how brutal the vietcong were or were not, they are thousands of miles from amerikkka. It had nothing to do with you.Neither did nicaragua,iran,panama,haiti,in donesia,chile,honduras, afghanistan twice,iraq 3 times or cuba but you invaded/bombed/interfered here too.




the vietnamese are buddhists, and as part of their beliefs they forgave you amerikkkans. You need to learn from their superior culture


If this guy didn't have a "track record" with ideological comments I would have otherwise assumed that that second statement is a joke. But I think he means it.

jvjim
28th July 09, 10:57 PM
also:

http://paulturounetblog.files.wordpress.com/2007/12/eddie-adams_execution.jpg Just so everyone knows the man being executed in this picture is known a Viet Cong officer and the executor is General Wen Nok Loan. It was taken shortly after the Tet Offensive and totally in purview of a general's powers during such an event.

socratic
29th July 09, 03:54 AM
Tell the motherfucker that those really nice, friendly Vietcong were really nice to the Hmong [they were allies of the capitalist forces, including the US, during Vietnam... It didn't go so well for them when we left.], so much so that the Hmong fled.

He doesn't really understand international politics at all, but that's okay, he's an idiot. And didn't Iran destroy the US embassy? That's an act of fucking war.

HappyOldGuy
29th July 09, 02:36 PM
I assume he's talking about Iran in '53. The Hmong+buddhism thing is pretty central to his idiocy tho, since him not understanding the fundamental fight between the francophone catholic minority and the buddhist majority means anything he says about vietnam should be treated like the babyburps it is.

Truculent Sheep
29th July 09, 03:20 PM
Similar levels of retardation can be found on the Guardian's Comment Is Free site whenever someone mentions Israel or the Palestinians.

Cullion
29th July 09, 04:03 PM
I think much of former soviet-bloc Eastern Europe is relatively safe, if not yet wealthy or uncorrupt. Going on holiday to places like Warsaw or Prague isn't really a dangerous proposition.

MaverickZ
29th July 09, 04:24 PM
Just so everyone knows the man being executed in this picture is known a Viet Cong officer and the executor is General Wen Nok Loan. It was taken shortly after the Tet Offensive and totally in purview of a general's powers during such an event.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nguy%E1%BB%85n_Ng%E1%BB%8Dc_Loan

Leon S Kennedy
30th July 09, 08:03 AM
This kind of reminds me of a former co-worker of mine who was talking to me about the Vietnam war because I told her about how my family fled Vietnam. She went off on some rant about how horrible that the US committed atrocities and destroyed Vietnam and for some reason she thought I was agreeing with her.

I then told her that my family fled not because of the US, but because the North Vietnamese were invading and then she went and told me that I got my history wrong and that somehow my family was brainwashed...

Lebell
30th July 09, 08:48 AM
proud supporter of the kommisar befehl.

lABylNdhoXE

Wounded Ronin
11th August 09, 10:44 PM
This kind of reminds me of a former co-worker of mine who was talking to me about the Vietnam war because I told her about how my family fled Vietnam. She went off on some rant about how horrible that the US committed atrocities and destroyed Vietnam and for some reason she thought I was agreeing with her.

I then told her that my family fled not because of the US, but because the North Vietnamese were invading and then she went and told me that I got my history wrong and that somehow my family was brainwashed...

That's pretty epic.