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View Full Version : Liberty bans Democrats. BYU gives both the boot.



Aaranar
22nd May 09, 08:33 PM
Conservative University Founded by Jerry Falwell Bans College Democrats Club

RICHMOND, Va. -- Liberty University has ordered its fledgling College Democrats club to shut down, saying the group stands against the conservative Christian school's moral principles.

Club president Brian Diaz said he was shocked to be notified by e-mail last week that the club was being banned by the private university in Lynchburg founded by the late Rev. Jerry Falwell. The university first recognized it in the fall.

"We were shocked, as well, that (the club) even got accepted. It was huge, and we were glad that Liberty did that," Diaz said in a telephone interview from Orlando, Fla.

The club is barred from using Liberty's name, advertising events and holding meetings on campus. Violators could be reprimanded and face expulsion for repeated offenses.

Vice president of student affairs Mark Hine said in the e-mail sent to Diaz on May 15 that the Democratic party violates the school's principles by supporting abortion, socialism and the "'LGBT' agenda," referring to lesbians, gays, bisexuals and transgender people. The e-mail said that even though the campus group "may not support the more radical planks of the Democratic Party, the Democratic Party is still the parent organization of the club on campus."

Mathew Staver, the dean of Liberty's law school who also is overseeing a review of university policies, said the decision stemmed from a new policy governing student groups. No other groups have been affected, including the campus Republican organization, he said.

Chancellor Jerry Falwell Jr. said the club's previous recognition by the school was "an oversight by an administrator" who didn't thoroughly consult school policy.

He said he likes the group's members and knows they mean well, but that the university has received "lots of complaints from parents and donors" about the club's existence.

"They're great Christian kids. I hope they'll find a Democratic organization that is pro-life and pro-family so they can become endorsed," he said in a telephone interview.

The 30 members of the Democratic club, which was started in October, canvassed neighborhoods to promote Barack Obama's presidential run and called voters from phone banks. Diaz said it's natural to wonder if the group was somehow being penalized for those activities.

Staver denied that Liberty was targeting the Democrats. The university won't prevent the group's members from interacting on campus, he said, but they can't hold meetings as the Liberty University College Democrats.

In a conference call with reporters, club adviser and 2004 Liberty graduate Maria Childress said she was unsuccessful so far in arranging a meeting to plead her case with the chancellor.

She said the Republican Party and its platform is "preached on every avenue" to a captive campus audience. During last fall's presidential campaign, she said, GOP viewpoints were expressed in the absence of any Democratic perspective.

In a statement released by the Democratic National Committee, DNC chairman and Virginia Gov. Timothy M. Kaine said, "I urge the leadership of Liberty University to reverse this attack on the liberty of its students and allow the College Democrats to have the same rights on campus as their counterparts, the College Republicans."

John Whitehead, president of the Rutherford Institute, which advocates for Christian rights, including free speech, says private colleges have a right to limit such groups, but curbing the marketplace of ideas isn't necessarily healthy.

At another religious campus, officials on Tuesday dissolved the student-run College Republicans and College Democrats. A spokesman at Brigham Young University-Idaho, run by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, said the move was aimed at making sure the university's political-neutrality policy was being followed.

Source : http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/05/22/conservative-university-founded-jerry-falwell-bans-college-democrats-club/?test=latestnews


Kudos from Bill O at 10, I'm sure.

Cullion
22nd May 09, 08:43 PM
It's a moot point I suppose. Why would a liberal want to go to a college founded to promulgate the ideals of somebody like Jerry Falwell? for lulz ?

Aphid Jones
22nd May 09, 09:12 PM
"They're great Christian kids. I hope they'll find a Democratic organization that is pro-life and pro-family
I wonder what Hee-Haw thinks "pro-family" means.

Ka-Bar
22nd May 09, 10:11 PM
It's a moot point I suppose. Why would a liberal want to go to a college founded to promulgate the ideals of somebody like Jerry Falwell? for lulz ?

Epic trolling.

socratic
22nd May 09, 10:17 PM
"Pro-family" means "not LGBT". I love political buzzwords. They're not anti equality, they're pro-family. They're not anti-abortion, they're pro-life.

Seriously, who the fuck isn't pro family? What, there's a gay guy on the street corner with a picket sign shouting "FUCK NUCLEAR FAMILY UNITS"? Bullshit.

Robot Jesus
23rd May 09, 12:21 AM
I think the whole "support the troops" meme gives a good framework. challenge what it means, have GLDT pro family groups start up, food banks and the sutch. then the meme ends its meaning.

Phrost
23rd May 09, 08:39 AM
I have no goddamn idea why the Religious Right supports the Republican party in ideology. Logically you'd think Christians would lean more towards the big government, socialistic Democrats instead of a party that (knock on Goldwater's coffin) is supposed to be about limited government and doing shit for yourself.

Cullion
23rd May 09, 08:48 AM
I have no goddamn idea why the Religious Right supports the Republican party in ideology. Logically you'd think Christians would lean more towards the big government, socialistic Democrats instead of a party that (knock on Goldwater's coffin) is supposed to be about limited government and doing shit for yourself.

It depends entirely on whether you interpret biblical injuctions to be charitable to mean with other people's money. That's why there are a lot of Christian Libertarians, including Ron Paul. They're the ones who understand it to mean they're supposed to be charitable with their own money and effort.

He used to treat broke people at massive discounts, or sometimes for free, even after finishing work at a church run charity hospital. He never looked around and thought 'what we need here is a government programme'.

Phrost
23rd May 09, 08:51 AM
Render undo Caesar what is Caesar's and unto God what is God's.

Cullion
23rd May 09, 08:53 AM
Render undo Caesar what is Caesar's and unto God what is God's.

Interpret that as you will. It doesn't stop lots of Libertarians being Christians, for the reason I've just explained to you.

If you try and derive an approach to political economy from Christian principles, you can take it pretty much any way you want as long as you still see Christ as the saviour and try to obey some vaguely plausible interpretation of the 10 commandments. It's just like there are Christians who don't think Marijuana is forbidden by God, or who don't think that polygamy is wrong, whilst others would be vehemently opposed to both.

If you want to see inside the mind of an extremely religious protestant who is a Libertarian, read the free 'biblical economics' stuff on Dr. Gary North's website.
I'm sure you'll find it as weird as I do that somebody arrives at an economic conclusion by interpreting some millenia-old myths from the near-eastern desert, but it will explain to you where these Christian Libertarians are coming from.

Weird metaphysical views aside, he's a very educated guy (his Ph.D isn't some bullshit bible-college or correspondance course Ph.D) and a good writer.

Phrost
23rd May 09, 09:10 AM
Oh I know. I'm just saying that the logical choice for evangelicals would be the party of bigger government so that they can impose their religious agenda more completely.

If we could just get the Dems to take the Christians and the Republicans to take the Gays and Minorities, all would be right in the universe.

Cullion
23rd May 09, 09:16 AM
It would be a lot easier if it was 'theocratic stalinists' vs 'freedom lovers' for sure.

Spade: The Real Snake
23rd May 09, 10:14 AM
It's a moot point I suppose. Why would a liberal want to go to a college founded to promulgate the ideals of somebody like Jerry Falwell? for lulz ?

Because that is what Mommy and Daddy will pay for.

Cullion
23rd May 09, 10:19 AM
Yeah, I keep forgetting how different your school system can be.

Although if you'd rather go to some crazy bible college which was founded to espouse views you're totally opposed to, rather than take a loan or work to pay for your education because it's just so much easier to live off mommy & daddy, I gotta confess I'm not that sympathetic.

Spade: The Real Snake
23rd May 09, 10:41 AM
Yeah, I keep forgetting how different your school system can be.
This shit wouldn't fly at a State University, only a privately funded college, where the Admin can require you to sign agreeing to certain rules and regulations. I had a couple of friends who went to BYU and hotdammit, those fuckers are strict.



Although if you'd rather go to some crazy bible college which was founded to espouse views you're totally opposed to, rather than take a loan or work to pay for your education because it's just so much easier to live off mommy & daddy, I gotta confess I'm not that sympathetic.
Work to pay for your own education requires a commitment and sacrifice in the now. Student loans require a commitment and sacrifice in the future. Agreeing to go where your parents will pay for it requires neither.

The difference in this case is the University itself told them to shut down, which is really distasteful. They should have just let them operate with their couple of dozen members, but it is better then attacking them at every turn, which is usually what happens when student political club has views considered "unpopular".

They are just all going to get together at a Denny's or Perkins or Coco's once a week for a "study group", anyhow.

Cullion
23rd May 09, 03:44 PM
Work to pay for your own education requires a commitment and sacrifice in the now. Student loans require a commitment and sacrifice in the future. Agreeing to go where your parents will pay for it requires neither.

That's why I have less sympathy.



The difference in this case is the University itself told them to shut down, which is really distasteful.

I agree.



They should have just let them operate with their couple of dozen members, but it is better then attacking them at every turn, which is usually what happens when student political club has views considered "unpopular".

They are just all going to get together at a Denny's or Perkins or Coco's once a week for a "study group", anyhow.

They might as well have expelled them. Fundie nut sets up a private university to expound his own opinions, fundie gets to do aforesaid. Surely degrees from such a place are worthless in the job market beyond religious-right political organisations and evangelical protestant ministry?

Fearless Ukemi
23rd May 09, 04:04 PM
I have no goddamn idea why the Religious Right supports the Republican party in ideology. Logically you'd think Christians would lean more towards the big government, socialistic Democrats instead of a party that (knock on Goldwater's coffin) is supposed to be about limited government and doing shit for yourself.


My father is a religious catholic. I asked him recently why he doesn't vote republican and he said because he wants our government to be "democratic socialism" and that he does not appreciate their hipocrisy. That was the last thing I expected to hear from him.

Spade: The Real Snake
23rd May 09, 04:10 PM
That's why I have less sympathy.
hey, college ain't cheap.
I had to go to State Uni because I couldn't afford the tuition and my family owns a business, which put their "income" for many grants and scholarships, out of reach.
And I wasn't about to take on a couple of hundred thousand smackers in loans.


They might as well have expelled them. Fundie nut sets up a private university to expound his own opinions, fundie gets to do aforesaid. Surely degrees from such a place are worthless in the job market beyond religious-right political organisations and evangelical protestant ministry?

Contacts. There are some big money donors ready to employ these grads in the workplace, figuring they will get a loyal, honest employee who, will in turn, donate money back to the school on their own or at their employer's behest.

Shit like this happens with Fraternities and Private Liberal Arts colleges, as well.

Ka-Bar
23rd May 09, 06:30 PM
hey, college ain't cheap.
I had to go to State Uni because I couldn't afford the tuition and my family owns a business, which put their "income" for many grants and scholarships, out of reach.
And I wasn't about to take on a couple of hundred thousand smackers in loans.



Contacts. There are some big money donors ready to employ these grads in the workplace, figuring they will get a loyal, honest employee who, will in turn, donate money back to the school on their own or at their employer's behest.

Shit like this happens with Fraternities and Private Liberal Arts colleges, as well.

See all the Regent University grads employed by the Bush administration.

WarPhalange
24th May 09, 11:35 AM
hey, college ain't cheap.
I had to go to State Uni because I couldn't afford the tuition and my family owns a business, which put their "income" for many grants and scholarships, out of reach.
And I wasn't about to take on a couple of hundred thousand smackers in loans.

There are plenty of good state universities. Pretty much all of the UC's are considered decent, and the University of Washington is just frickin' amazing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Washington#Rankings

Shawarma
24th May 09, 12:22 PM
How much do college fees in the US differ from school to school?

Spade: The Real Snake
24th May 09, 12:27 PM
How much do college fees in the US differ from school to school?

I was in line to go to Occidental and play soccer (without any scholarship save some books, offset on dorm and board) and the tuition, at that time as around $15K a semester. I hurt my knee and was told I could still walk-on, no other *help*.
I went to a state university in Arizona where I paid about a grand or so for in-state tuition per semester.

elipson
24th May 09, 12:51 PM
Jebus I forgot how bad you guys have it down there. My degree from one of the top schools in Canada only put me in the hole 40k acquired over 6 years. Stupid Canadian Socialism...

Adakar
24th May 09, 02:30 PM
Jebus I forgot how bad you guys have it down there. My degree from one of the top schools in Canada only put me in the hole 40k acquired over 6 years. Stupid Canadian Socialism...

UBC?

I ended up with about 20k owed after getting my degree from UofT.

WarPhalange
24th May 09, 03:23 PM
2 years community college + 3 years University of Washington = ~$26k in the hole. I paid for CC with scholarships and it was about $2400/year + books. UW is about $7500/year + books and the entirety of my loan. Reason why it's >$23k is because I also bought my books through loans and had to have something extra just to live off of. Hell, even I deserve a treat every now and then. My last purchase was a set of noise canceling headphones for $150. Before that, I can't remember what I bought that wasn't food, directly for school, or Walmart clothes.

MIT or Harvard? Like $40k/year.

Cullion
24th May 09, 04:13 PM
Jebus I forgot how bad you guys have it down there. My degree from one of the top schools in Canada only put me in the hole 40k acquired over 6 years. Stupid Canadian Socialism...

Until the early 90s Brits used to pay no tuition at all and receive a government grant to live on during term time. It was extremely unusual to hear of people being in any kind of debt on leaving university until the mid-late 90s.

Even after those reforms, I didn't pay any tuition and for my postgrad work received a government grant to live on because the subject I was studying was thought to be 'important for the economy'. I had about 2 grand in student debt with the interest rate set below the rate of inflation.

AIUI one of the reasons Oxford and Cambridge are still relatively popular with Americans is that they are cheaper than studying at Harvard or MIT, in addition to the 'international study' experience.

elipson
24th May 09, 04:34 PM
I'm actually not a big fan of free education. Affordable yes, but free is silly.

Ya UBC. I'm actually more in the hole because I only took 4 classes a semester instead of 5, so that I could work while going to school. If I had done the whole thing in 4 years I'd probably have less debt, but i dont think that was realistic, seeing how I maxed out my loans every year and still had to work. Taking 5 classes and still working 2 jobs would have been insane.

I've heard UofT is great.

Cullion
24th May 09, 04:58 PM
I'm actually not a big fan of free education. Affordable yes, but free is silly.

When the UK ran it that way, it was because the number of people going to university was something like 5% of the population, whittled down to that percentage by rigorous academic selection. Now the governmental goal is to have about 50% of the population go through higher education, with the quid pro quo that they're going to increasingly have to fund it themselves.

Sun Wukong
24th May 09, 09:14 PM
It's a moot point I suppose. Why would a liberal want to go to a college founded to promulgate the ideals of somebody like Jerry Falwell? for lulz ?


Because their parents forced them to go by holding the purse strings.

WarPhalange
24th May 09, 09:17 PM
And the kids were too chicken shit to go out on their own.

Antifa
24th May 09, 10:11 PM
And the kids were too chicken shit to go out on their own.

There is a difference in student aid for people who parents are poor and people whose parents are asshats.

It's not like you were in the mood to wait till you were 24 to START college.

WarPhalange
24th May 09, 10:26 PM
What.

I know plenty of people who go anyway. It's called student loans. The Military. Hell, I think even the Peace Corps provides college benefits. It's not easy, that's for sure. But going to a shitty college that only sets you up for a shitty life is not exactly the best option.

Especially since there still are scholarships that are based on merit, not just need.

But I guess what college you go to really matters as well. Science and engineering is great in that you can get high up just by doing good work. Business and shit like that? All connections. Nuts to that, I say.

Which just confuses me even more as to why these people would want to have any association with the brainwashed fools going to that school.

Antifa
24th May 09, 11:21 PM
What.

I know plenty of people who go anyway. It's called student loans. The Military. Hell, I think even the Peace Corps provides college benefits. It's not easy, that's for sure. But going to a shitty college that only sets you up for a shitty life is not exactly the best option.

.

Stafford loans and Pell grants are based on needs. So if your folks got money and dont want to spend it on your college, it also precludes you from the 2 most common sources of college $$$.

The GI benifits are a matching grant.

The peace corps pays off your loans AFTER you graduate. Same same teach for america.

Merit based scholarships are rare and often granted by the institution not by foundations.

Not everybody wants to be an engineer and society needs people of all professions.

Also, if you want to look at why the cost of school continues to go up, look at the proliferation of highly paid administrators. That is something that totally needs to be examined as a trend in our educational system.

HappyOldGuy
24th May 09, 11:42 PM
Also, if you want to look at why the cost of school continues to go up, look at the proliferation of highly paid administrators. That is something that totally needs to be examined as a trend in our educational system.

That smells like an extremely pat PC answer. But there is no question that costs have exploded out of all proportion.

When I went to school, I paid less than 2K a year total for everything school related at a UC. Today, that's about 10K. I was actually able to completely support myself through college without help from home or government. It involved renting peoples couches and mooching off of girlfriends, but it was doable. I don't think it is today.

Antifa
25th May 09, 08:59 AM
That smells like an extremely pat PC answer. But there is no question that costs have exploded out of all proportion.
.

okay....

lets test this then.

Pick 2 private universities at random. or as many as you like within reason

You will go and find 4 facts:

1) total cost for a years undergraduate courses, full load: tutition + room + board + fees
2) Proffessor's base salaries --- Full, associate and assistant.

I will go and find the pay of their adminstration.

These must be private schools because thats the only place I know how to do the lookups.

We will both report and the group will evaulate the data.

Vic_Viper
25th May 09, 09:29 AM
I'm actually not a big fan of free education. Affordable yes, but free is silly.

Ya UBC. I'm actually more in the hole because I only took 4 classes a semester instead of 5, so that I could work while going to school. If I had done the whole thing in 4 years I'd probably have less debt, but i dont think that was realistic, seeing how I maxed out my loans every year and still had to work. Taking 5 classes and still working 2 jobs would have been insane.

I've heard UofT is great.

Replying on this account as I didn't realize I replied on my bro's account earlier. Ya I liked it there. I even ended up switching majors after 2 years so I was there a lot longer than I should have been. Sounds like you lived on campus? Being a Toronto native I was able to have the luxury of staying at home which definitely makes it a lot cheaper.

Dagon Akujin
25th May 09, 11:08 AM
Liberty: Where you have the freedom to think exactly the way we want you to.

HappyOldGuy
25th May 09, 12:30 PM
okay....

lets test this then.

Pick 2 private universities at random. or as many as you like within reason

You will go and find 4 facts:

1) total cost for a years undergraduate courses, full load: tutition + room + board + fees
2) Proffessor's base salaries --- Full, associate and assistant.

I will go and find the pay of their adminstration.

These must be private schools because thats the only place I know how to do the lookups.

We will both report and the group will evaulate the data.

Err, your claim was, "why the cost of school continues to go up."

If we want to look at that, then we need a time series of total budgets+administrators salaries.

Antifa
25th May 09, 01:02 PM
Err, your claim was, "why the cost of school continues to go up."

If we want to look at that, then we need a time series of total budgets+administrators salaries.

I can only go back 3 years.

I've watched the trend informally for a long time, but I can only pull budgets for the last 3 years.

Do you still wish to examine the issue as best we can or not?

HappyOldGuy
25th May 09, 01:24 PM
Do you still wish to examine the issue as best we can or not?

Not really. I know that administrators salaries have gone through the ceiling, driven by the general increase in executive compensation in the private sector. But I also know that the salaries of the chancellor and vice chancellors at my alma mater have only (roughly) doubled, while tuition and fees have gone up 5x.

Antifa
25th May 09, 01:25 PM
Not really. I know that administrators salaries have gone through the ceiling, driven by the general increase in executive compensation in the private sector. But I also know that the salaries of the chancellor and vice chancellors at my alma mater have only (roughly) doubled, while tuition and fees have gone up 5x.

over what time period. whats your alma mata?

HappyOldGuy
25th May 09, 01:27 PM
over what time period. whats your alma mata?

UC Santa Barbara, class of 90.

Antifa
25th May 09, 01:29 PM
UC Santa Barbara, class of 90.

I dont know how to look up state schools....


however please also note that there has been an over all increase in the number of administrators...

jkdbuck76
27th May 09, 11:05 AM
They might as well have expelled them. Fundie nut sets up a private university to expound his own opinions, fundie gets to do aforesaid. Surely degrees from such a place are worthless in the job market beyond religious-right political organisations and evangelical protestant ministry?

I'm on a pulpit committee right now to hire a new pastor.
I will not hire a Liberty U grad. Period.

One of the major principles of the baptist faith (besides eating way too much fried food) is the separation of church and state. I tend to be more fundamental in my beliefs, however I have never liked nor trusted the Religious Right.

And Falwell's infomercials always made me sick.

Why is there so much stupid?

Ajamil
27th May 09, 01:34 PM
Science caused all the stupid. The keep digging for truth and have to shovel all the stupid out of the way, but without a proper disposal plan, it just floats around and pollutes up the atmosphere.

jkdbuck76
28th May 09, 06:41 AM
Help cut down Global Stupid. I mean, if the Stupids would work (as crash test dummies) I would agree to their continued life on earth.