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View Full Version : Same Sex Catholic Marriages. A historical perspective.



Antifa
25th April 09, 03:14 PM
Seen @ http://www.colfaxrecord.com/detail/91429.html

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When Same-Sex Marriage Was a Christian Rite
By ThosPayne
SS. Sergius & Bacchus - 7th cent.

A Kiev art museum contains a curious icon from St. Catherine's Monastery on Mt. Sinai in Israel. It shows two robed Christian saints. Between them is a traditional Roman ‘pronubus’ (a best man), overseeing a wedding. The pronubus is Christ. The married couple are both men.

Is the icon suggesting that a gay "wedding" is being sanctified by Christ himself? The idea seems shocking. But the full answer comes from other early Christian sources about the two men featured in the icon, St. Sergius and St. Bacchus, two Roman soldiers who were Christian martyrs. These two officers in the Roman army incurred the anger of Emperor Maximian when they were exposed as ‘secret Christians’ by refusing to enter a pagan temple. Both were sent to Syria circa 303 CE where Bacchus is thought to have died while being flogged. Sergius survived torture but was later beheaded. Legend says that Bacchus appeared to the dying Sergius as an angel, telling him to be brave because they would soon be reunited in heaven.

While the pairing of saints, particularly in the early Christian church, was not unusual, the association of these two men was regarded as particularly intimate. Severus, the Patriarch of Antioch (AD 512 - 518) explained that, "we should not separate in speech they [Sergius and Bacchus] who were joined in life". This is not a case of simple "adelphopoiia." In the definitive 10th century account of their lives, St. Sergius is openly celebrated as the "sweet companion and lover" of St. Bacchus. Sergius and Bacchus's close relationship has led many modern scholars to believe they were lovers. But the most compelling evidence for this view is that the oldest text of their martyrology, written in New Testament Greek describes them as "erastai,” or "lovers". In other words, they were a male homosexual couple. Their orientation and relationship was not only acknowledged, but it was fully accepted and celebrated by the early Christian church, which was far more tolerant than it is today.

Contrary to myth, Christianity's concept of marriage has not been set in stone since the days of Christ, but has constantly evolved as a concept and ritual.

Prof. John Boswell, the late Chairman of Yale University’s history department, discovered that in addition to heterosexual marriage ceremonies in ancient Christian church liturgical documents, there were also ceremonies called the "Office of Same-Sex Union" (10th and 11th century), and the "Order for Uniting Two Men" (11th and 12th century).

These church rites had all the symbols of a heterosexual marriage: the whole community gathered in a church, a blessing of the couple before the altar was conducted with their right hands joined, holy vows were exchanged, a priest officiatied in the taking of the Eucharist and a wedding feast for the guests was celebrated afterwards. These elements all appear in contemporary illustrations of the holy union of the Byzantine Warrior-Emperor, Basil the First (867-886 CE) and his companion John.

Such same gender Christian sanctified unions also took place in Ireland in the late 12thand/ early 13th century, as the chronicler Gerald of Wales (‘Geraldus Cambrensis’) recorded.

Same-sex unions in pre-modern Europe list in great detail some same gender ceremonies found in ancient church liturgical documents. One Greek 13th century rite, "Order for Solemn Same-Sex Union", invoked St. Serge and St. Bacchus, and called on God to "vouchsafe unto these, Thy servants [N and N], the grace to love one another and to abide without hate and not be the cause of scandal all the days of their lives, with the help of the Holy Mother of God, and all Thy saints". The ceremony concludes: "And they shall kiss the Holy Gospel and each other, and it shall be concluded".

Another 14th century Serbian Slavonic "Office of the Same Sex Union", uniting two men or two women, had the couple lay their right hands on the Gospel while having a crucifix placed in their left hands. After kissing the Gospel, the couple were then required to kiss each other, after which the priest, having raised up the Eucharist, would give them both communion.

Records of Christian same sex unions have been discovered in such diverse archives as those in the Vatican, in St. Petersburg, in Paris, in Istanbul and in the Sinai, covering a thousand-years from the 8th to the 18th century.

The Dominican missionary and Prior, Jacques Goar (1601-1653), includes such ceremonies in a printed collection of Greek Orthodox prayer books, “Euchologion Sive Rituale Graecorum Complectens Ritus Et Ordines Divinae Liturgiae” (Paris, 1667).

While homosexuality was technically illegal from late Roman times, homophobic writings didn’t appear in Western Europe until the late 14th century. Even then, church-consecrated same sex unions continued to take place.

At St. John Lateran in Rome (traditionally the Pope's parish church) in 1578, as many as thirteen same-gender couples were joined during a high Mass and with the cooperation of the Vatican clergy, "taking communion together, using the same nuptial Scripture, after which they slept and ate together" according to a contemporary report. Another woman to woman union is recorded in Dalmatia in the 18th century.

Prof. Boswell's academic study is so well researched and documented that it poses fundamental questions for both modern church leaders and heterosexual Christians about their own modern attitudes towards homosexuality.

For the Church to ignore the evidence in its own archives would be cowardly and deceptive. The evidence convincingly shows that what the modern church claims has always been its unchanging attitude towards homosexuality is, in fact, nothing of the sort.

It proves that for the last two millennia, in parish churches and cathedrals throughout Christendom, from Ireland to Istanbul and even in the heart of Rome itself, homosexual relationships were accepted as valid expressions of a God-given love and committment to another person, a love that could be celebrated, honored and blessed, through the Eucharist in the name of, and in the presence of, Jesus Christ.



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Discussion?

jubei33
25th April 09, 03:46 PM
when's your wedding? Is sociocide allowed to come? :)

welcome back

WarPhalange
25th April 09, 03:47 PM
BAHAHAHAHA!

This only affects Catholics, though, as other Christians want nothing to do with any sort of organized church or saints. Still, very much hilarious.

WarPhalange
25th April 09, 04:08 PM
Even same-sex birth control?

Cullion
25th April 09, 04:16 PM
This only affects Catholics, though, as other Christians want nothing to do with any sort of organized church or saints.

Um, what ?

Cullion
25th April 09, 04:17 PM
All I will say is this, if they allow same sex stuff

They don't any more.


they should also allow birth control.

They do. Withdrawal method & rhythm method. Just no rubber or chemicals. I think anal would be an acceptable method of birth control too.

Kiko
25th April 09, 04:21 PM
Steve, can I move this to CTC?

Robot Jesus
25th April 09, 04:34 PM
Um, what ?


The religious right in north America take a very smug view of the catholic church; how backwards and midevil it is, with its latin, and its saints.

they are a modern progressive religious movement, why else would they have electric guitars?

HappyOldGuy
25th April 09, 04:42 PM
I think anal would be an acceptable method of birth control too.

IIRC you can play with the anal or the oral, but you need to "finish" in the approved manner.

No escaping your spin on the papal roulette wheel,

Aphid Jones
25th April 09, 04:49 PM
BAHAHAHAHA!

This only affects Catholics, though, as other Christians want nothing to do with any sort of organized church or saints. Still, very much hilarious.
Greek, Armenian and Coptic all have Saints too.

Cullion
25th April 09, 04:51 PM
And Anglicans.

Cullion
25th April 09, 04:53 PM
IIRC you can play with the anal or the oral, but you need to "finish" in the approved manner.

No escaping your spin on the papal roulette wheel,

Withdrawal is allowed as long as you don't spill it though, right ?

EuropIan
25th April 09, 04:54 PM
Withdrawal is allowed as long as you don't spill it though, right ?
Yeah that's what Onan was smoted (?) for.

Aphid Jones
25th April 09, 04:55 PM
I find this interesting. While I don't doubt it happened, I do think that the article makes it sound more frequent. Monks (many of which became saints) were sometimes joined in such ceremonies not for sexual/romantic union, but to solidify a bond through which they would endure long periods of isolated hermitage.

HappyOldGuy
25th April 09, 04:55 PM
I think this girl is a nun in her day job, you should ask her

fuQHT7nmYHU

WarPhalange
25th April 09, 06:08 PM
Greek, Armenian and Coptic all have Saints too.
Nobody cares about those people.

Aphid Jones
25th April 09, 06:32 PM
Nobody cares about those people.

I DO.

Kiko
25th April 09, 06:58 PM
The saints do.

Ka-Bar
25th April 09, 07:57 PM
Yeah that's what Onan was smoted (?) for.

Wasn't he struck down for refusing to impregnate his brother's widow? Not for "spilling his seed?" And how do you withdraw without spilling it?

Blue Balls?

Cullion
25th April 09, 08:24 PM
In the passage he did have sex with his brother's widow, but he withdrew.

Ka-Bar
25th April 09, 08:32 PM
But wasn't Onan refusing to continue his brother's seed the sin that displeased God, not the fact that he withdrew?

And how is the withdrawal method and the rhythm method any less of a sin than contraception?

Not trying to be an ass here, just genuinely curious.

Cullion
25th April 09, 08:43 PM
But wasn't Onan refusing to continue his brother's seed the sin that displeased God, not the fact that he withdrew?

He withdrew because he didn't want to have children by his brother's widow for whatever reason. In both Talmudic and Christian tradition this was interpreted in variations along two overlapping lines: 'sex is supposed to be for procreation, not just for entertainment' and 'semen is precious and not to be wasted, i.e. do not spill your seed'.



And how is the withdrawal method and the rhythm method any less of a sin than contraception?

If you withdraw before you ejaculate you're honouring your wife with your body without 'wasting seed'. The rhythm method also doesn't 'spill seed', although you are still knowingly having sex purely for pleasure. Catholic tradition isn't quite as puritanical as people see it from the outside, it's full of loopholes and precedents established over centuries to make some compromises with human nature.

It seems wildly illogical to a non-believer because it's attempting to use logic to create acceptable compromises around premises which are based on myth and religious faith.

Dagon Akujin
25th April 09, 09:13 PM
This might just shake things up more than The Davinchi Code and Ted Haggard together.

Ka-Bar
25th April 09, 10:43 PM
If you withdraw before you ejaculate you're honouring your wife with your body without 'wasting seed'.

Does anyone honestly have sex without ejaculating? I mean, even Sting has to get some release after 6 or 7 hours.

And what's the Church's view on wet dreams? I personally enjoy them an awful lot. I'd be disappointed to know if it was considered spilling seed.

WarPhalange
25th April 09, 11:04 PM
Does anyone honestly have sex without ejaculating? I mean, even Sting has to get some release after 6 or 7 hours.

"I don't have ED! I just... uhh... withdraw early to honor my wife with my body... yeah, that's it!"

TheMightyMcClaw
26th April 09, 01:10 AM
But wasn't Onan refusing to continue his brother's seed the sin that displeased God, not the fact that he withdrew?

And how is the withdrawal method and the rhythm method any less of a sin than contraception?

Not trying to be an ass here, just genuinely curious.

Yes. In the case of a widow, it was the duty of the deceased's younger brother to become the new husband and father children. Onan didn't want to do this, and pulled out, for which God struck him down.
This same law is mentioned in one of the new testament gospels, in a scene where Jesus is debating with a group of Sadducees. The Sadducees ask, regarding the kingdom of heaven, if a man dies and his younger brother becomes the new husband, and then that men dies and the next in line becomes the husband, etc. until the lass has had her not-too-small share of men, then who will be her husband after the resurrection.
So basically, it was part of biblical marriage law. And Onan broke it, so God killed him, getting to the core message of Don't Do Things God Doesn't Want You to Do.
That aside: gay saint marriage, awesome.

Cullion
26th April 09, 04:03 AM
Does anyone honestly have sex without ejaculating? I mean, even Sting has to get some release after 6 or 7 hours.

Coitus Saxonicus.



And what's the Church's view on wet dreams? I personally enjoy them an awful lot. I'd be disappointed to know if it was considered spilling seed.

Wet dreams are involuntary, so the Church makes no attempt to proscribe them.

Kiko
26th April 09, 05:45 AM
*sigh* The Church only advocates 'natural' sex and methods of contraception. Which mostly means unless there is total understanding and cooperation, there's more little ones to fill the pews, schools, etc. It's possible, just not alot of fun if you don't want babies. If you do, that's a whole other story.