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JohnnyCache
17th April 09, 02:58 PM
Ok

this came up in a thread a while a go and it's a divergence that interests me

There is an argument being put forth that "most" or "many" of the guns being used in border violence are purchased by illegals from US gun stores.

This doesn't seem plausible to me. I would think you'd be better off getting bulk weapons somewhere else if you were a mexican drug lord.

Epsilon alluded to having done some "research" on it.

What do people think and are there hard numbers either way?

Also, what do people on here think about finding ways to limit straw purchases in general? What's the best way to do so/appropriate penalty for those caught?

HappyOldGuy
17th April 09, 03:10 PM
A big chunk of the guns are actually coming from the US. That is for sure, and really can't be argued against. There are traces from Mexico, and siezures here, as well as statistics looking at gun sales on the border that all confirm that a substantial trade is happening. Is it the biggest chunk? That we can't say from anything I've looked at.

But that by itself doesn't necessarily suggest that "gun control" is the best answer to the problem. What pisses me off about this is that a real problem is getting swallowed up in the second most absurdist washington echo chamber (#1 belonging to the abortion debate).

Zendetta
17th April 09, 03:13 PM
I think the criticism of Mexico as a "failed state" is accurate. I was watching a TV show about the Sinaloa Cartel and now I am sufficiently fear-mongered.

They arn't getting the full auto guns from US gun stores, thats for sure.

JohnnyCache
17th April 09, 03:14 PM
you think the abortion debate is important?

I thought it was just a tool for moving threads off topic.

Shawarma
17th April 09, 03:14 PM
With regards to #1, a substantial amount of the dead fetuses in Mexico are imported from the US as well. Or at least they were, back in the day.

I am totally unqualified to comment on this subject, but I gotta admit that the "American guns in Mexico" sounds a fishy to me as well - I mean, Columbia is just to the south. Couldn't they get the gangsters there sell them some cheap AKs instead of relying on expensive US imports? And in a country as corrupt as Mexico, I doubt the Russian mafia would have much trouble landing shipments of AKs either.

Scrapper
17th April 09, 03:18 PM
I believe (http://www.google.com/search?q=Guns+used+in+mexican+crime&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a) that 17% of the guns found in Mexican crime scenes were bought or stolen in the US.

Keep in mind, some of the largest gun makers in the worl are headquartered in Brazil and Argentina.

Zendetta
17th April 09, 03:21 PM
Douches like Eric Holder have suggested that prohibiting assault rifles might help (Obama is wisely choosing to NOT say this).

Let me just say that even discussing taking away Americans' Rights to make up for Mexico's eroding society fills me with rage and disgust. Especially when the real answer is "End the War on Drugs".

Also: you been doin' some fine work lately, JC.

HappyOldGuy
17th April 09, 03:22 PM
you think the abortion debate is important?

I thought it was just a tool for moving threads off topic.

No, I think it is an absurd partisan echo chamber where noone is interested in solving anything. So I get pissed when real issues (like stem cells) get caught up in it.

Same here.

And zen brings up an interesting question. Back when I was a young pup and liked to play with guns, it was before the CA ban. (make your dinosaur jokes). Back then, you could trivially go to any gun show and pick up an Uzi on one table, conversion instructions on the second, and a new pin or whetever other parts were needed at the third, and have your full auto a half hour in the garage later. Obviously california isn't like that anymore (and IIRC Uzi's weren't that easy, but you get the point). How about Texas etc. How hard are conversion kits to come by?

Robot Jesus
17th April 09, 03:26 PM
you think the abortion debate is important?

I thought it was just a tool for moving threads off topic.


I think what he meant is that both the gun control debate and the abortion debate are places rational argument goes to die; to that end the abortion debate is worse.

elipson
17th April 09, 03:52 PM
I think the criticism of Mexico as a "failed state" is accurate. I was watching a TV show about the Sinaloa Cartel and now I am sufficiently fear-mongered.

They arn't getting the full auto guns from US gun stores, thats for sure.

I have a lot of friends in different parts of Mexico. They think the failed state idea is funny. Mexico has ALWAYS been violent, and most of the drug violence is centered around actors in the game. A bigger problem for everyday mexicans is kidnapping, not that the violence isn't also a big problem.

Pretty much every expert I've read agrees that most of the weapons are coming from the US, and these are people who have no benefit from being wrong on this. But I will skip the "appeal to authority" argument cuz its crappy.

The US is the biggest market for Mexican goods and the biggest destination for Mexican populations movements. This creates a HUGE infrastructure serving to connect the two countries. This is why I don't for a second believe that most of the guns are coming from Brazil, Venzuala, or former soviet countries. The infrastructure isn't there. With the US/Mexico relationship, you have the transportation infrastructure, the communications, and the personnel on the ground of both sides of the border that can allow this too happen. Logistically its a no-brainer. Getting guns from the US is simpler than getting them from anywhere else, they get smuggled as part of legitmate cross border traffic, and are arranged by associates on each side of the border. I'll try to find some info on Mexican trade numbers to emphasise the point.

Add to this the one way nature of US border enforcement efforts, with the emphasis on keeping mexicans out, instead of keeping guns in (although this is changing with the increased pressure of the drug war). Now take a very.... accepted gun culture where there are lots of gun shops and gun shows, combines this with HUGE profit margins for the drug trade (estimated $10 billion) and its not difficult to imagine the potential for corruption among gun dealers in Border States. Offer enough money and the notso law-abiding gun dealers will eventually cave to the pressure of lots of money. This is likely a minority of gun dealers, but considering how many there are this could still be a large number. Just look at all the illegal weapons used in domestic crimes. Obviously they are not impossible to acquire.

For what its worth, most experts think the FULLY auto guns and military grade weapons are being obtained either through theft of military stores (mostly mexican, but also some from American bases). Some of the heaviest hitters in the Cartels are former Mexican Special forces, so obviously they use their connections to get things done. There also IS a market in bringing in large stores of big guns from other countries, but the difficulty in this, and the potential loss of getting your entire shipment of illegal arms siezed, means its a bigger gamble and therefore more rare.

Part of me thinks the fuss about fully auto weapons is the media playing things up. I doubt they would take the time to explain the difference between fully auto AK's and semi-auto AK's. In either case, semi auto assualt rifles are better weapons of war than hunting rifles, shotguns, and hand guns. If I'm wrong on this idea, please feel free to correct me.

The FBI has a gun trace program that the Mexicans use to find out if guns came from the US. I will see if I can find some good sources for it.

I'll avoid the anti-gun debate if possible. Making the argument that the guns ARE coming from the US is more important at the moment then trying to revoke the second amendment.

elipson
17th April 09, 04:36 PM
And just so its out there, the drug problem in Mexico is a systemic problem, and is NOT only because of the gun trade. More important than the gun trade in continuing the conflict are:

Employment. young men have no real alternative to joining the cartels
Corruption. Which hampers real law enforcement from making gains.
Poor pay for police, which leads to corruption.
and a stubborn refusal to seriously pursue addiction treatment in the US, instead focusing on Law enforcement.

The guns just make the fighting more brutal and allow cartels to engage in a fair fight with the police.

Zendetta
17th April 09, 04:43 PM
I have a lot of friends in different parts of Mexico. They think the failed state idea is funny. Mexico has ALWAYS been violent, and most of the drug violence is centered around actors in the game. A bigger problem for everyday mexicans is kidnapping, not that the violence isn't also a big problem.

Good post.

Is this a "fish can't see the water" type of thing? Because your friends seem to be accidentally implying that Mexico has never not been a "failed state".

The reason I think the description has validity is that the government and police are clearly incapable of reeling in the Cartels, due in part to the fact that the police and government are corrupt as all hell and are either unwilling or unable to protect those cops and politcos who dare to take a stand.

Agreed on the Kidnapping issue, I've heard the same thing.

elipson
17th April 09, 06:23 PM
Is this a "fish can't see the water" type of thing? Because your friends seem to be accidentally implying that Mexico has never not been a "failed state".


Its a good question but it really comes down to how you define a Failed State. The narco violence isn't threatening the democratic process in Mexico. Canada and the US has gang violence that hasn't been stopped thus far. I don't think narco violence can be enough to justify calling it that.

My one friend has never known anyone directly involved in narco violence, but has had several friends kidnapped for money. And he grew up in Mexico city.

It's a question up for debate, but when I think of failed states I think of Somalia, Afghanistan, and most of Colombia. The drug war is confined to certain areas of the country and the cartels have no interest in competing with the government for actual control of the country.

Zendetta
17th April 09, 06:34 PM
Its a good question but it really comes down to how you define a Failed State. The narco violence isn't threatening the democratic process in Mexico.

I'm not sure I'd agree, its just limited to certain areas. It seems pretty apparent, based on allegations of police and judicial corruption, that narco violence has indeed eroded civil society in various provincial areas.

Re. kidnapping: I was going to guess "Mexico City".

MrGalt
17th April 09, 06:46 PM
What's the ultimate question here? The absolute point-source origin of the guns or their immediate origin prior to being imported into Mexico? If all we're saying is that they're "American" guns, as in they are the product of American companies and/or factories, that's really easy to resolve.

As for illegals buying them in gunstores, yeah, I have to go with JohnnyCache in saying that's bullshit. I want to see one of those gun stores.

elipson
17th April 09, 07:19 PM
What's the ultimate question here? The absolute point-source origin of the guns or their immediate origin prior to being imported into Mexico? If all we're saying is that they're "American" guns, as in they are the product of American companies and/or factories, that's really easy to resolve.

As for illegals buying them in gunstores, yeah, I have to go with JohnnyCache in saying that's bullshit. I want to see one of those gun stores.

I'm reharvesting this from an earlier thread on assualt weapons.


http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/txw/press_releases/2008/Garza_SAguns_plea.pdf

http://www.usdoj.gov/opa/pr/2008/January/08_opa_080.html




Agents have noted an “iron river of guns” with thousands of weapons per week crossing the border into Mexico from the United States. Approximately 40 percent of those weapons are linked to drug trafficking organizations.


http://www.usdoj.gov/oig/reports/ATF/e0707/results.htm
LOOONG report



According to federal and local law enforcement intelligence, members of the cartels and gangs get guns from the same sources that law-abiding citizens do – FFLs, flea markets, and gun shows – either by buying the guns themselves or through the use of straw purchasers.
....
While some cases are still pending, the McAllen Field Office’s operations at the gun shows have so far resulted in the arrests of 3 undocumented Mexican nationals after they purchased 3,000 rounds of ammunition and 14 firearms that ATF agents believed they planned to smuggle into Mexico. A Mexican national with U.S. resident-alien status also was arrested after coordinating straw purchases of 10 high-priced firearms.


http://mexico.usembassy.gov/eng/eataglance_illicit_firearms.pdf




ATF has traced more than 62,000 firearms seized in Mexico since 1996 using eTrace.
...
In August 2008, ATF Tucson arrested three members of the Arellano-Felix organization for attempting to purchase $194,000 worth of machine guns and grenades.



To be fair though, these sources are all taken from HIGHLY left-wing and liberal organizations.

The US department of Justice and the ATF.

Zendetta
17th April 09, 07:52 PM
This just occurred to me: a very very popular weapon with the Cartel Soldiers are hand grenades - they call them penas (for "pineapples"). There was a big shootout with police in whatever state Acapulco is in a day or so ago, and they found a stash of penas.

Mexicans are NOT buying hand grenades in US gun stores.

Some bullshit is definitely afoot.

Phrost
17th April 09, 08:00 PM
The problem here is politically poisoned semantics.

There are concrete definitions of various classes of firearms, but the disingenuous like to fudge the fuck out of them.

A "semi automatic" firearm is technically also an "automatic" in that it is not a revolver or single shot. But the weasels like to state "automatic weapon" to imply they're "Fully Automatic".

If the argument is that Mexico is getting a lot of its handguns from the US, I'd probably agree that it's likely and wouldn't do too much pushing back. But arguing that the drug cartels are getting a hold of full auto machine guns from the US is just fucking asinine.

HappyOldGuy
17th April 09, 08:09 PM
By the way, they specifically seem to like the FN 5.7mm handguns. Cop killer hype aside, I have to confess if i was interested in a handgun, that's one I would check out, but it would be very interesting to look at how many of those are being sold in the border areas versus the rest of the country.

Neildo
17th April 09, 08:19 PM
People in Vancouver trade weed for guns. Just last year they found a backpack full of pistols somebody had dropped off in a ditch near the border. they all came from a washington state gun show.

edit: was looking for the article, found something else where the cops say "guns go north, drugs go south."

http://www2.canada.com/theprovince/news/story.html?id=bd461419-9087-4ca5-972c-4406840b617f&k=46439

Wounded Ronin
17th April 09, 09:04 PM
Well I'd rather have guns instead of weed any day.

Dark Helmet
17th April 09, 10:12 PM
A 60 minutes report last Sunday about gun sales at trade shows. Guns can be bought right from parking lots without much questions asked.

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=4937731n

Can't imbed

The Twitcher
17th April 09, 10:38 PM
I bet a lot of them did come from the US, but not from gun stores. Most likely uncle sam. Here's a good idea, stop giving them M16s!

Shawarma
18th April 09, 03:35 AM
Why would the American government arm the people responsible for flooding its streets with weed and cocaine? Don't really see the benefit here.

Neildo
18th April 09, 03:50 AM
the american gevernment doesn't really like it's citizens, i think.

mrm1775
18th April 09, 05:13 AM
Why would the American government arm the people responsible for flooding its streets with weed and cocaine? Don't really see the benefit here.
It doesn't. Twitcher is always that stupid.

As far as the numbers go, what I have been able to gather is that the %90 figure comes from the guns that are actually sent back to the US for tracing. This would stand to reason, since they are only sent for tracing when they think that the weapon came from here in the first place. I don't have a good source to reference right now, but it would make sense as no self-respecting thug would use a semi-automatic weapon when fully automatic versions are freely available. The commonly held belief that these weapons are easily converted is a myth.

This number works for left-leaning politicians because they want an excuse for tighter gun control. It also works for the Mexican government because it lets them shift the blame from themselves, as the primary arms suppliers to the cartels seem to be their own rampantly corrupt police and military forces. Its easier to just blame the US for your problems nowadays.

The fact is, criminals will get guns from any source available to them, and in Mexico, they will get them just as easily regardless of the original origin. Certainly there are many weapons purchased or stolen in the US that make their way south and more should be done to end this illegal traffic, but the notion that placing more restrictions on legal firearms sales in the US will have any effect on crime in Mexico is absurd.

Scrapper
18th April 09, 08:10 AM
17% of the guns are American. That leaves another 83% from somewhere else. Since other countries don't have our extensive records and tracing infrastructure, only the US guns are ever identified.

As far as infrastructure goes, which do you suppose is harder: Buying a gun in the US, and smuggling back to Mexico, or buying a gun in Brazil and carrying it into mexico?

Offhand, does anyone know how many AK's, clones, and variants are floating around unaccounted for?

I'm not saying that American guns aren't part of the problem, but lets go after something salient here. Tighten the border, and decriminalize some drugs. Use the money you saved on the drug war to fund addiction assistance here in the US.

Lets go after supply and demand at the same time.

Cullion
18th April 09, 08:14 AM
Never going to happen. In fact, you're going to get the reverse.

Sun Wukong
18th April 09, 08:25 AM
A big chunk of the guns are actually coming from the US. That is for sure, and really can't be argued against. There are traces from Mexico, and siezures here, as well as statistics looking at gun sales on the border that all confirm that a substantial trade is happening. Is it the biggest chunk? That we can't say from anything I've looked at.

But that by itself doesn't necessarily suggest that "gun control" is the best answer to the problem. What pisses me off about this is that a real problem is getting swallowed up in the second most absurdist washington echo chamber (#1 belonging to the abortion debate).


I'm not sure, I think it's definitely one of the longest term echo chambers, but not necessarily the most absurd or even second most. The attempts at constitutional bans on gay marriage are a little more absurd in my opinion.

Not to mention the fucking intelligent design initiatives...

Sun Wukong
18th April 09, 08:30 AM
As for the question put forward by the OP: I do not think that those guys are legally buying those guns by majority unless they are somehow getting around presenting ID at gun shows by making proxy purchases: at any rate, that still wouldn't be legal.

Now, I could totally believe they were purchasing the weapons through proxy american citizens who don't have restrictions against them purchasing weapons; ie, citizens with clean records.

Sun Wukong
18th April 09, 08:34 AM
If the argument is that Mexico is getting a lot of its handguns from the US, I'd probably agree that it's likely and wouldn't do too much pushing back. But arguing that the drug cartels are getting a hold of full auto machine guns from the US is just fucking asinine.

Yeah, fully automatic weapons in the hands of regular jerk offs in the US is just plain crazy talk.

B7oG2VDQrgY

Cullion
18th April 09, 08:36 AM
i don't get it. she wasn't mexican.

Sun Wukong
18th April 09, 08:43 AM
i don't get it. she wasn't mexican.




If the argument is that Mexico is getting a lot of its handguns from the US, I'd probably agree that it's likely and wouldn't do too much pushing back. But arguing that the drug cartels are getting a hold of full auto machine guns from the US is just fucking asinine.

Do you get it now?

Sun Wukong
18th April 09, 08:44 AM
that is a darling old woman though.

Kein Haar
18th April 09, 08:51 AM
No, it is asinine.

Even with that nifty tax stamp, AnnaTrocity can not go out and purchase a newly manufactured full-auto anything. We are confined to existing (read: "used") stuff....and even then we have to drop many, many thousands of dollars on a single shitty specimen.

That doesn't lend itself to a high volume of illicit movement.

I do call bullshit.

Sun Wukong
18th April 09, 08:56 AM
I wouldn't posit they're getting all of their stuff from the US, but I can certainly believe they are getting some of it from here.

Most likely, they are buying most of it through central and south american black markets.

Kein Haar
18th April 09, 08:58 AM
The simpler and cheaper explanation is that they are monkeying with the triggers and sears on semi-auto guns.

The properties of a machine gun aren't magical, they are mechanical.

Cullion
18th April 09, 10:02 AM
Do you get it now?

no not really, she didn't look like the type to sell her machine gun to a mexican drug dealer.

Cullion
18th April 09, 10:04 AM
another option might to ask why is this even being debated in the US. if mexicans can't be trusted to deal drugs in an orderly and responsible fashion, like middle class white hippies, then perhaps you should just seal the border and let them gun each other down until it goes quiet, and then just make texas bigger.

this certainly sounds like an absurd college boy's argument about why guns should be banned in a completely different country in order to persuade an impressionable liberal first year chick that she should let him throw his dude-yoghurt all over her pert, bouncing titties. capiche?

part of the problem is that Obama is a world statesman.

that's a sort of code for 'over-educated middle-class brat with no practical skills looking for a cause by weeping from the heart over everything that happens everywhere'

don't be like obama

Cullion
18th April 09, 10:07 AM
i'd like chris to give references and sources for his crackpot theory that violent drug dealers might be acquiring their weapons illegally.

theotherserge
18th April 09, 10:17 AM
The simpler and cheaper explanation is that they are monkeying with the triggers and sears on semi-auto guns.

The properties of a machine gun aren't magical, they are mechanical.

I was gona ask/say myself. Especially the older models that are in circulation can be easy to modify no? As long as they aren't French, eh?

Scrapper
18th April 09, 10:36 AM
Never going to happen. In fact, you're going to get the reverse.


I know.

Ajamil
18th April 09, 01:38 PM
Ja know, if we made gun ownership easier and cheaper in the Us, then we could buy all the guns made here and not have to worry about there being any left for the Mexicans. And a nice new town slogan could be, "Nogales - everyone who lives here is packing heat. Everyone."

Cullion
18th April 09, 01:40 PM
obama isn't worried about mexicans causing trouble in the US, because that would be racist. what he's worried about is that mexicans who take guns back to mexico might shoot each other up, and that would be your selfish fucking fault for not changing your gun laws to protect countries on your border from their own irresponsible citizens. not a word of a lie. not a word of a lie.

Sun Wukong
18th April 09, 01:55 PM
i'd like chris to give references and sources for his crackpot theory that violent drug dealers might be acquiring their weapons illegally.


Clearly this is an attempt at dry British humour. See, I spelled HUMOR with an extra "u" to placate you.

Cullion
18th April 09, 01:57 PM
I don't know why you think of it as an 'extra' u. You're supposed to pronounce it, you know.

Sun Wukong
18th April 09, 02:01 PM
In addition to the original tea party, we also held a patriotic grammar jamboree and spelling bee wherein we decided to make a few alterations to the language. We also gave credit for the invention of the chip to the French. We have made it our mission to mildly slight you pommie bastards at every turn without actually doing anything meaningful with the exception of that whole Colonial Rebellion / American Revolution.

Phrost
18th April 09, 02:08 PM
Yeah, fully automatic weapons in the hands of regular jerk offs in the US is just plain crazy talk.

B7oG2VDQrgY

You have no fucking idea what you're talking about. Why don't you do some research into how much shit you have to go through to purchase a fully auto firearm, let alone the cost.

The idea that civilians in the US are spending months having the ATF crawl up their asses for each purchase, just to turn around and sell them to people in a country with access to much cheaper, non-regulated firearms, is galactically fucking stupid.

elipson
18th April 09, 02:24 PM
another option might to ask why is this even being debated in the US. if mexicans can't be trusted to deal drugs in an orderly and responsible fashion, like middle class white hippies, then perhaps you should just seal the border and let them gun each other down until it goes quiet, and then just make texas bigger.

this certainly sounds like an absurd college boy's argument about why guns should be banned in a completely different country in order to persuade an impressionable liberal first year chick that she should let him throw his dude-yoghurt all over her pert, bouncing titties. capiche?



And the fact that America can't seem to control its firearms industry so that its not used in an illegal way? Strawmen purchase guns illegaly (Americas fault for not preventing this) then make their way past the US border services (Americas fault) and you want to say that America is blameless?

There is a lot of blame to go around in this issue, and while America certainly doesn't deserve all of it, it does deserve SOME of it for not being able to ensure its citizens follow ITS laws.

If the US were able to better enforce their OWN LAWS on gun purchases and border control there wouldnt be as many guns going south.

Cullion
18th April 09, 03:17 PM
Yeah, America is pretty much blameless here. Where did you get the idea that the illegal guns are mostly being purchased in the US? Think of all the other, far more anarchic and corrupt countries in Latin America and the Caribbean.

Besides, this is nothing to do with enforcing America's existing laws better. This is all just a sophomoric trojan horse to impose new gun laws on US citizens that's palatable to Obama's liberal voter base.

elipson
18th April 09, 03:42 PM
Bullshit dude!

Gee Cullion, what do you think is easier? Taking a few hours to drive across one of the hundreds of US/MEX border crossings to meet up with a mexican national you know living in the states and arranging for him to sell you a gun which you can then drive/walk back across the US/MEX border. Or, arranging a trade with someone in a different south American nation and arranging for them to send you a gun through a small number of VERY obvious smuggling routes, such as a few large ports or a relatively small number of southern border crossings?

Think of the Mexican ex-pat population in the States. Compare that to how many mexicans migrate to other South American countries. This trade is arranged through personal contacts. Family members and friends who got into the US. This MASSIVE mexican diaspora doesn't exist in Brazil or other South American countries in the same level of magnitude it exists in the US.

You really think it is easier to arrange a multi-country, long distance exchange of money and weapons than it is to DRIVE OR WALK across the border for a day and meet up with a friend/family/business acquaintence and buy a gun from him for a few hundred bucks?

You are assuming that self-interested businessmen are choosing the more expensive, more difficult, and more risky method for purchasing firearms. You are also ignoring the fact that there are practically no barriers to entry into the market for gun runners. They don't need high profile business contacts in shipping industries to bring things in through the ports. They don't need to arrange transportation for the weapons of up to thousands of miles. All they have to do is find a seller north of border through someone they know and be able to drive across the border. Which seems easier?

I'll say it again: This gun trade happens on the back of legitimate trade and migration movements.


I'll drive the point home even further.
http://stat.wto.org/CountryProfile/WSDBCountryPFView.aspx?Language=E&Country=MX



Exports, in billions
By main destination
1. United States 82.2
2. European Union (27) 5.3
3. Canada 2.4
4. Colombia 1.1
5. Bolivarian Rep. of Venezuela 0.9

Imports
By main origin
1. United States 49.8
2. European Union (27) 12.0
3. China 10.5
4. Japan 5.8
5. Korea, Republic of 4.5


Do you not see the MASSIVE difference in traffic between US/MEX and ANYONE/MEX?

elipson
18th April 09, 03:46 PM
Besides, this is nothing to do with enforcing America's existing laws better. This is all just a sophomoric trojan horse to impose new gun laws on US citizens that's palatable to Obama's liberal voter base.

This is a fairly stupid idea considering the agencies responsible for enforcing those laws are the ones saying they need better enforcement. Obviously those agencies just LOVE admitting they aren't doing their jobs very well.

HappyOldGuy
18th April 09, 03:51 PM
Do you not see the MASSIVE difference in traffic between US/MEX and ANYONE/MEX?

I suspect it's also a proximity thing. The gang wars are mostly for control over border crossings with the US. So why traverse a big long skinny country to try and make black market contacts when a dozen open gun superstores are an easy drive away.

It is illegal to buy guns for resale to another person (unless you have a license) and also for foreign resale. So the traffic is black letter illegal under US laws already. And I'm sure there are plenty of groovy conspiracy charges they can use too. So although Phrost will probably go all militia over the increased surveillance, I think there are solutions that don't actually involve increased restrictions.

taijiamn
18th April 09, 04:16 PM
...
If the US were able to better enforce their OWN LAWS on gun purchases and border control there wouldnt be as many guns going south.
What about the Mexican side of border control? You don't hear much about that. If it's our responsibility to catch drugs coming in, shouldn't it be their responsibility to police guns going to them? Why are all of the border problems laid at the feet of US customs?

Edit. I also saw Thursday ,when Obama when to Mexico City, a Mexican official lay the blame for everything on the US. "If there wasn't a demand for drugs int the US, they wouldn't need guns from the US to wage war on the police so they can make drugs."

elipson
18th April 09, 04:21 PM
Mexico has for a long time admitted that they need better enforcement. Not just at the border but better law enforcement in general. The difference is that Mexico admits and has been trying to fix the problem.

And judging by how much narcotics gets caught by Mexican authorities (a lot) I think its fair to say that its not JUST the responsibility of US border agents.

It's not a zero sum game. There is lots of critisism to go around. The point isn't to fix blame on any single entity or nation, but to make sure that everyone involved is recognized as being involved and that all parties are making efforts to better the situation.

Cullion
18th April 09, 05:21 PM
Bullshit dude!



I guess you missed the point earlier about the proportions of weapons being used begin from the US. And I guess that the fact that this has become a news item because of higher level spin is beyond you too.

Never mind. I'll be proved right, as usual.

HappyOldGuy
18th April 09, 05:47 PM
Never mind. I'll be proved right, as usual.

Unlikely. You're already a little wrong on the facts and a lot wrong on the politics.

The facts are that there absolutely is a significant flood of illegal US weapons into Mexico. There is no question abotu whether, it's only a question of how much.

As far as the politics go, very little about this is coming out of the Obama administration. They are very much trying not to talk about gun control. The know that they have serious problems to deal with and a pigfight with the NRA is exactly what they don't want. If Holder is still attorney general during a second Obama term, then you might see some movement. The people talking most about this are the mexican government, usually in response to criticism about illegal aliens coming north.

Scrapper
18th April 09, 06:01 PM
Am I all alone here? 17% is a chunk, to be sure. But c'mon...where are the other 83% coming from? Why is the US the problem? If we were less anal about tracing our guns, than nobody would know where they came from at all and we wouldn't be dealing with this issue.

Nobody is doing shit about the other 83% of the guns. It's a smokescreen and a spin game. America is responsible for Mexico's inability to handle their own organized crime?

HappyOldGuy
18th April 09, 06:06 PM
The other 83% are untraced because it isn't relevant to solving a case or doing intel on the gangs. Alot of them are old revolvers. Some of the military stuff is for sure coming from China. But most of the new stuff that is hitting the streets in the hands of the drug gangs is mostly US origins according to both US and mexican law enforcement.

elipson
18th April 09, 06:14 PM
Proved right about what? The fact that there is spin? I think everyone pretty much agreed with that.

Or proved right in your theory that long distance, high stakes, multi-nation arms trading is more likely than widespread individual purchases across a porous and highly utilized border?

Are you actually listening to yourself old man?


Fully autmoatic and military grade weapons are NOT coming from the US. We have been over that. However there IS a flood of non-fully automatic weapons coming over the border, and these weapons ARE contributing heavily to the violence.

The media IS playing this situation in a screwed up light. Military grade weapons are likely a minority of weapons being used and siezed, however when they are siezed they grab headlines more than they deserve. Add to this the ignorance between the difference of a fully automatic AK and a non-fully automatic AK bought in the states, and what you get is that anytime there is a siezure of weapons that are fully automatic they get lumped in with non-fully automatic weapons from the US and the media mixes it all together to get "fully automatic weapons from the US".

You've got a huge mix of different news stories morphing into a single story.You've got a relatively small percentage of military grade weapons that make huge headlines, then you've got non-military grade weapons coming from the US that are WAY more numerous and more common in the narco violence, and they all get bunched into a story about US weapons in mexican drug war. Obviously the media likes to lump the military grade weapons into this story, it makes for more sensational news. But that doesn't mean you can marginalize all the other weapons that are involved in this.

Cullion
18th April 09, 06:46 PM
You guys are fucking morons. You're only even raised this here because 'Obama's' spin team decided to create this news item so that the chattering classes would have something to debate where people relying totally on mainstream respectable news coverage would be inexorably pushed towards an 'its our fault again, let's change our own gun laws to absolve ourselves of anglo-guilt' position.

This is how a comitted gun-controller 'trying to keep a low key' manipulates public opinion.

Why do you let other people decide what the topic of debate should be so readily ?

It's absurd. Why can't you see it ?

elipson
18th April 09, 07:45 PM
You fucking moron. This has been a problem for YEARS. It's only recently that anyone started to notice due to the ever increasing death toll and the fact that its starting to spill over into the US.

The fact that you think this is something that has only been brought up recently proves how TOTALLY ignorant you are about this subject.

Phrost
18th April 09, 09:35 PM
There are already laws on the books that aren't enforced.

Why aren't people getting pissed about this, instead of looking for an excuse to chip away at an essential human right?

Oh wait, you don't give a shit about Mexico. It's because you're fucking pussies who are afraid of guns while believing that Government will always be there to keep you safe. This is just another justification to further your cause of centralizing power in the hands of the Government.

Fucking sheep.

HappyOldGuy
19th April 09, 01:22 AM
There are already laws on the books that aren't enforced.

Why aren't people getting pissed about this, instead of looking for an excuse to chip away at an essential human right?

Oh wait, you don't give a shit about Mexico. It's because you're fucking pussies who are afraid of guns while believing that Government will always be there to keep you safe. This is just another justification to further your cause of centralizing power in the hands of the Government.

Fucking sheep.

Who exactly are you talking too?

Cullion
19th April 09, 03:37 AM
You fucking moron. This has been a problem for YEARS. It's only recently that anyone started to notice due to the ever increasing death toll and the fact that its starting to spill over into the US.

The fact that you think this is something that has only been brought up recently proves how TOTALLY ignorant you are about this subject.

It has only been brought up recently. You never gave it a moment's thought before this month. Don't lie.

DAYoung
19th April 09, 03:47 AM
essential human right

What do you mean when you say 'essential human right (http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/rights/)'?

I'm curious to see how it fits into your libertarianism.

(Perhaps this needs another thread.)

Cullion
19th April 09, 03:52 AM
He's talking about the set of negative rights encapsulated in English Common Law and the American bill of rights.

DAYoung
19th April 09, 04:01 AM
He's talking about the set of negative rights encapsulated in English Common Law and the American bill of rights.

I'd like to see what Phrost has to say.

I'm interested in the relationship between libertarianism and rights (particularly in light of the communitarian critique).

Cullion
19th April 09, 04:05 AM
Phrost won't know. He'll come out with some Heinlein quote that supports fascism without realising it.

DAYoung
19th April 09, 04:10 AM
The fascists had great uniforms.

Phrost needs to step up in the wardrobe department.

Truculent Sheep
19th April 09, 04:40 AM
There's a hefty contradiction in wanting to control the flow of guns whilst still not being able to control the flow of drugs.

Plus, you're all missing another important point: this all points to the corruption of Mexican society spreading over the border and into the US as some in the FBI and local law enforcement have feared for a while. Oh look - Prohibition has failed miserably again - WHAT A SURPRISE.

elipson
19th April 09, 05:04 AM
It has only been brought up recently. You never gave it a moment's thought before this month. Don't lie.

I think you are confusing me with you. I've been following Calderons drug war since he started it in 2006. You're the one who recently formed his expert opinion based on the sound bites he heard on the local news media.

Cullion
19th April 09, 05:44 AM
What sound bites? What 'local news media' are you refering to?

Can't you see that this issue is being raised as a form of opinion management ?

Kein Haar
19th April 09, 07:43 AM
Indeed, it's social engineering.

Everything that is happening now represents degress of that which has always been happening.

Irrespective of why GW didn't bring the topic up, the fact is he did not. Oh, and in doing so he remained consistent with basically leaving gun owners alone.

New President, new pet topic. Oh, and it happens to mesh with his agenda of enacting his vision of gun control.

This isn't even really debatable. It's factual happenstance and it happens everywhere with everyone. The leader creates the spirit of the organization and determines priorities.

It's all true. Srsly.

Cullion is simply the messenger here.

Cullion
19th April 09, 08:43 AM
I just don't understand why people refuse to see what their third-eye is trying to show them. This doesn't require great intellect to notice, just that one trusts one's right-brain's high-level pattern-matching capability. I think too much schoolin' can bludgeon it out of people. Most of what happens in a modern classroom is obedience training rather than true education.

I'm willing to bet that deep down Ellipson can just feel that I'm right, but his obedience training has erected a defence mechanism of irrelevant detail.

Just trust me man. People like Obama are more scared of their own populace than they are of some remote Islamic group in a third world country. That's the real reason they want to take your guns away.

Phrost
19th April 09, 10:34 AM
What do you mean when you say 'essential human right (http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/rights/)'?

I'm curious to see how it fits into your libertarianism.

(Perhaps this needs another thread.)

"Life and Liberty" are empty words without the ability for the individual to actually preserve them. I do not belong to a State, I am my own property.

HappyOldGuy
19th April 09, 11:31 AM
Irrespective of why GW didn't bring the topic up, the fact is he did not. Oh, and in doing so he remained consistent with basically leaving gun owners alone.

New President, new pet topic. Oh, and it happens to mesh with his agenda of enacting his vision of gun control.


Did you actually bother to see which administration originated the 90% figure before tossing your opinion?

Cullion
19th April 09, 11:46 AM
You're obsessing over small details. It doesn't matter which party brought it up, the elites of both sides want gun control, it's just that the republicans generally have to be furtive about it because of the views of their grass roots.

HappyOldGuy
19th April 09, 11:52 AM
I obsess over facts. It's a character flaw.

Cullion
19th April 09, 12:01 PM
Facts are important, certainly, but cultural engineering in the mass media is more often about drawing attention to facts or topics of debate which favour a certain viewpoint rather than outright falsification (although that happens too).

It's just as important to step back and think 'why is this particular subject suddenly a topic of public debate' as it is to examine the content of the debate.

If you sit-back with your eyes half-closed after taking in stuff from lots and lots of different media sources, and just sort of let your subconscious 'beautiful mind' it's way through all the information, you can often jump straight to what's really happening and then use your normal left-brain functions to backfill the detail to come up with a proof. It's how I analyse macroeconomics, make social predictions and tell when people are lying or trolling, and it's also how I come up with a lot of my best recipes.

You really need to learn to trust your instincts.

elipson
19th April 09, 12:47 PM
This has been going on FOR YEARS.

I know this is hard for your arrogant british sensibility to accept Cullion, but just because you didn't know about something before this month doesn't mean that it didn't exist before this.

The only thing that has changed about this situation is that suddenly the media is actually talking about it. That doesn't mean they just created it though and it doesn't mean there weren't a lot of people discussing this problem before it became Obamas pet project.

My inner eye is telling me that Cullion does know jack shit about the situation but his superiority complex wont let him admit it.

Cullion
19th April 09, 12:54 PM
The only thing that has changed about this situation is that suddenly the media is actually talking about it.

Now you're getting it.



That doesn't mean they just created it though and it doesn't mean there weren't a lot of people discussing this problem before it became Obamas pet project.

Read, very slowly and carefully what I've posted again.

HappyOldGuy
19th April 09, 01:08 PM
Who's pet project? (http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2008-08-11-mexico-guns_N.htm)

Again. Noone is denying that this issue is being used to sharpen partisan political axes.

In fact, some really bright boy might have even said,


What pisses me off about this is that a real problem is getting swallowed up in the second most absurdist washington echo chamber

But you grossly misunderstand the role of the gun control debate in Washington. Like the abortion debate. both sides want the issue more than the solution. Workable solutions are hard and don't mesh nicely into anyones ideology. Whereas the issue is very useful to the republicans to secure their base. The dems are stuck between a rock and a hard place since a vocal sliver of their base demands action, whereas the moderate DLC wing of the party knows that it is political suicide, whatever their personal feelings on the subject.

elipson
19th April 09, 01:36 PM
The situation is very frustrating because it inevitably gets mixed up with the gun control issue.

While I personally think gun control could be one avenue for addressing this problem, its not the ONLY one. As phrost pointed out, and to which i totally agree, there are lots of laws that get under-enforced. Addressing this issue should in theory satisfy both sides of the political spectrum, but it gets all fucked up in the "dur dur dur guns are bad!", "dur dur dur don't take my guns!" debate.

It IS possible to talk about enforcing gun laws without fighting the 2nd amendment battle.

JohnnyCache
19th April 09, 02:08 PM
Elip, I like that you tried to bring some hard fact to the case, but given that I KNOW the DOJ misrepresents things like the danger of marijuana and the distribution of LSD to their own service, I have to remain a little skeptical.

Also, I know, for a fact, that if you want a gun in mexico, you can get one from columbia or brazil or hati or even cuba. I know, as certainly as it is possible to know something, that there is a material chain from south america (where the cartel's drugs are produced, remember? That's not in your I/E figures) to the US. You can fly a couple hours over the gulf almost as easy as you can run the US border.

Also, for real, I am friends with a professional machinest. He made an AK47 from scratch in about a day once on a bet that arose from a gun control debate. Then, for shits and giggles, he made one that shot 12 guage shot gun shells. (IE the Saiga)

The AK47 can be made out of scrap metal, by almost any mongoloid with a lathe and a working example.

Cullion
19th April 09, 02:27 PM
The situation is very frustrating because it inevitably gets mixed up with the gun control issue.

While I personally think gun control could be one avenue for addressing this problem, its not the ONLY one. As phrost pointed out, and to which i totally agree, there are lots of laws that get under-enforced. Addressing this issue should in theory satisfy both sides of the political spectrum, but it gets all fucked up in the "dur dur dur guns are bad!", "dur dur dur don't take my guns!" debate.

It IS possible to talk about enforcing gun laws without fighting the 2nd amendment battle.

Yes I know, my point is that the issue isn't being brought into the public's attention to have that reasoned debate.

elipson
19th April 09, 02:39 PM
Point taken about the DOJ.

My main point isn't that the US is the only source of guns going into to Mexico, but that it is one of the major sources, it is a problem, and does deserve attention.

And that's pretty cool about the AK.

Cullion nothing in American politics takes the form of a reasoned debate. If its not sensationalized, then its marginalized and ignored like this problem was for many years.

Kein Haar
19th April 09, 02:48 PM
My main point isn't that the US is the only source of guns going into to Mexico, but that it is one of the major sources, it is a problem, and does deserve attention.

No it isn't, no it doesn't.

Cullion
19th April 09, 02:52 PM
Yes, and issues are often brought into the public eye in order to try and manufacture consensus.

It's not just the content of a debate that needs to be examined, but the reasons for a topic being debated in the first place. Simply lying about facts is a crude and short-term influencing technique. Choosing which facts to present is more common and harder for people to see through rationally.

The most common technique, yet the hardest thing of all for most people to deal with is that which topic they have chosen to discuss in the first place is often being influenced.

Once you've led people to this point (and split them into sports teams) they can often be manipulated via their team rivalries to take positions they might otherwise have considered absurd. Over the decades, this effect is cumulative.

Zendetta
21st April 09, 04:44 PM
As usual, I heartily agree with the Drunken Limey.

My reaction to lib dems and Mexican politicos on this issue is such that I have to concentrate to keep from screaming "Fine then, lets just close the goddam border!!!"

Anyone who seriously suggests restricting Americans' Constitutional Rights because Mexico can't manage civil society seriously deserves a kick in the nuts.

Kein Haar
21st April 09, 04:52 PM
It's funny.

There are still more homicides in the U.S.

Looks like Obama concedes that nobody gives a shit about who is dying.

"Let's try Mexicans then...."

HappyOldGuy
21st April 09, 05:50 PM
As usual, I heartily agree with the Drunken Limey.

My reaction to lib dems and Mexican politicos on this issue is such that I have to concentrate to keep from screaming "Fine then, lets just close the goddam border!!!"

Anyone who seriously suggests restricting Americans' Constitutional Rights because Mexico can't manage civil society seriously deserves a kick in the nuts.

Yeah, cause those are the only two options.

Cullion
21st April 09, 06:16 PM
I resent the 'drunken' bit. I was stone cold sober when I wrote those posts.

Zendetta
21st April 09, 06:16 PM
Hey, I don't want it to go that way. I think the border fence is a ridiculous, "Gated Community" kind of response.

Its just that the gun-grabbing do-gooders don't even register how poisonous the "restrict american gun rights to shore up dysfunctional mexico" idea is, and it makes me fucking furious.

Cynthia Tucker, who is not usually an idiot, referred to Obama's not suggesting reinstatment of the "assault weapons" ban as "cowardice" in her column yesterday.

She doesn't have nuts to kick, but if she did, I would.

Also, big lulz at the Mexi Government: "You need to keep Yankee Guns outta Mexico! (and we have absolutely no intention of keeping illegal Immigrants out of the USA)"

The Sheep was right when he said that this was Mexican social corruption creeping over the border and infecting the US. I reckon it will get worse.

Zendetta
21st April 09, 06:18 PM
I resent the 'drunken' bit. I was stone cold sober when I wrote those posts.

Well, maybe that was why it was so bitter. You were still correct; I won't hold sobriety against you.

Also, kudos on your Ozymandias Technique.

Cullion
21st April 09, 06:27 PM
You don't need to worry about Mexican social corruption, you already have it, as do we. Responsible working Mexicans who have enough of a living in Mexico to not feel the need to flee over the border for anonymous undocumented work probably spend as much time worrying about the social corruption you export to them.

They are after all Catholics with a vastly greater sense of loyalty to kith and kin than the average modern American.

You need to start mass education campaigns on propaganda techniques from at least Bernays onwards, localise judicial and executive power and then start toppling crooks one by one.

elipson
21st April 09, 06:28 PM
The Sheep was right when he said that this was Mexican social corruption creeping over the border and infecting the US. I reckon it will get worse.

Way to blame the rest of the world you arrogant jackass. This is the kind of shit that makes americans so hated everywhere else.

It's YOUR demand that is funding the drug war and its your damned guns doing the killing. The fact that there are more killings in the US just proves how fucked up your country is.

Mexico has a right to be pissed off at the US.

HappyOldGuy
21st April 09, 06:32 PM
Err, mexico is about 4x worse than the US.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita

Zendetta
21st April 09, 06:50 PM
Way to blame the rest of the world you arrogant jackass. This is the kind of shit that makes americans so hated everywhere else.

It's YOUR demand that is funding the drug war and its your damned guns doing the killing. The fact that there are more killings in the US just proves how fucked up your country is.

KaNucker, Please. Quit hating me for my Freedoms. I already stated that the answer to this is to end the drug war. I also agree with Cullion's assertion that american social corruption is impacting mexico (and everywhere else...)

BUT...

Scrapper's stats are that only 17% of the gun violence in mexico is due to American firearms. We certainly aren't providing the fucking hand grenades that are a common toy in a Mexican gangster's arsenal.

MY demand is for marijuana, which california does best. But when the Mexican Mafia sets up shop in our National Forests, which happens lots, they do it on a scale and in a way that really fucks the local ecosystem up. A lot of the violence in Mendocino County is due to Mexican Gangs from LA coming up and ripping people off.

And finally, to dust off an old chestnut: "our guns" aren't killing anyone. Mexican Gangsters are.

OH SNAP.


Mexico has a right to be pissed off at the US.

They are just miffed over the "Texas" thing.

Seriously, they need to get their house in order, and you know it. So get off my ass, Hombre.

Zendetta
21st April 09, 06:51 PM
Err, mexico is about 4x worse than the US.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita

Clearly America's fault.

MrGalt
21st April 09, 08:48 PM
Way to blame the rest of the world you arrogant jackass. This is the kind of shit that makes americans so hated everywhere else.

It's YOUR demand that is funding the drug war and its your damned guns doing the killing. The fact that there are more killings in the US just proves how fucked up your country is.

Mexico has a right to be pissed off at the US.

Lolwut.

If someone points out that Mexican criminals are killing Mexicans in Mexico, that's "blaming" them? Isn't it just being observant on the most basic possible level? Why don't the criminals in question get full credit as human beings with a free will of their own? This seems paternalistic to me. Only Big Daddy White Boss has the free time to worry about what his Little Brown Brothers are doing this intensely.

The drug demand COULD go unmet. The guns COULD go unpurchased, regardless of their source. Those aren't the choices that are being made.

Phrost
22nd April 09, 07:27 PM
Oh hay guise, what's this?


The 5,114 figure is simply wrong. What Newell said quite clearly (http://www.atf.gov/press/speech/2009/032409_newell-testimony.htm) is that the number of guns submitted to ATF in those two years was 11,055: "3,312 in FY 2007 [and] 7,743 in FY 2008." Newell also testified, as other ATF officials have done, that 90 percent of the guns traced were determined to have come from the U.S. So based on Newell's testimony, the Fox reporters should have used a figure of 9,950 guns from U.S. sources. That figures out to just over 34 percent of guns recovered, assuming that the 29,000 figure supplied by Mexico's attorney general is correct.

Even that number is too low. At our request, an ATF spokesman gave us more detailed figures for how many guns had been submitted and traced during those two years. Of the guns seized in Mexico and given to ATF for tracing, the agency actually found 95 percent came from U.S. sources in fiscal 2007 and 93 percent in fiscal 2008. That comes to a total of 10,347 guns from U.S. sources for those two years, or 36 percent of what Mexican authorities say they recovered.

http://www.factcheck.org/politics/counting_mexicos_guns.html

Oh hai.

BTW, the source has strong ties to your side of the fence, hippie assholes.

HappyOldGuy
22nd April 09, 07:41 PM
Well, everyone knows the facts have a left wing bias.

Phrost
22nd April 09, 07:51 PM
Yeah, too bad the left prefers to use feelings and ideals in their arguments instead.

EuropIan
23rd April 09, 06:00 AM
Yeah, too bad the left prefers to use feelings and ideals in their arguments instead.
YOU ARE WRONG BECAUSE YOU HATE KITTENS!

Zendetta
23rd April 09, 11:40 AM
Well, everyone knows the facts have a left wing bias.

Bam!


Yeah, too bad the left prefers to use feelings and ideals in their arguments instead.

BAM!!!