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Sirc
15th April 09, 08:56 PM
Protesting is antiquated. They are yelling and nobody is listening. Anybody who is at this protest, this is all that they're going to do to address this issue. They don't really want to do anything, but they want something done. Doing something like this is convenient, sociable and something that'll make them feel good about themselves that they actually did something.

This is bullshit and everyone should get teabagged for participating.

MEGA JESUS-SAMA
15th April 09, 09:33 PM
I love protesters. BUT anybody who actually listens to that "free speech zone" bullshit is missing the damn point. The entire point of a protest is to be loud and as disruptive to what you're protesting as possible. Stop being pussies and take to the streets!

I would also like to see fewer protests that involve walking around with signs and more than involve blowing up dams and shit. Take some fucking initiative.

Sirc
15th April 09, 09:36 PM
I love protesters. BUT anybody who actually listens to that "free speech zone" bullshit is missing the damn point. The entire point of a protest is to be loud and as disruptive to what you're protesting as possible. Stop being pussies and take to the streets!

I would also like to see fewer protests that involve walking around with signs and more than involve blowing up dams and shit. Take some fucking initiative.

Americans don't go to protests to protest. They go to protests like it's a concert. It's just a social event to have fun and feel good.

Robot Jesus
15th April 09, 09:38 PM
"black mans got a lot of problems, but he knows how to throw a brick.
white people go to shcool, where they teach you how to be thick."




please dont kill me Asia
































in other new; I forget where i herd this, but the teabaging may be a top down thing and be a fake grassroots organization. Is this bullshit? or is my post?

Phrost
15th April 09, 10:20 PM
Naa, it's a grassroots thing still, but some have tried either co-opting it, or feeding it.

boondock lee
15th April 09, 10:29 PM
Jon Stewart just pwned the whole Tea party protests and the fact that Fox News has a boner over the whole thing. Seriously, FNC is all over this like this is the upcoming coup of the Obama administration.

SFGOON
15th April 09, 10:33 PM
Nothing says revolutionary outrage like a bunch of fat soccer dads holding signs in the local park with their fifth graders.

Sometimes the world just goes in a certain direction, and your kids aren't cute enough to change people's minds. But at least you get to bitch about it on the news for a few seconds. And you get to have a BBQ in the park because, you know, family values and - oh fuck it.

Ka-Bar
15th April 09, 10:44 PM
Where were these yahoos when Bush was spending $12 billion a month in Iraq?

Or are they okay with pissing away billions when it's for something they deem patriotic?

Somewhere Glen Beck is massaging his prostate with hot tea bags, jerking off to the the Fox News coverage and cleaning his mess up with the Washington Times.

Sirc
15th April 09, 10:48 PM
Where were these yahoos when Bush was spending $12 billion a month in Iraq?

Or are they okay with pissing away billions when it's for something they deem patriotic?

Somewhere Glen Beck is massaging his prostate with hot tea bags, jerking off to the the Fox News coverage and cleaning his mess up with the Washington Times.

12 billion/month =/= 700 billion.

Robot Jesus
15th April 09, 10:59 PM
a month, how long have you been there?

Dark Helmet
15th April 09, 10:59 PM
Where were these yahoos when Bush was spending $12 billion a month in Iraq?

Or are they okay with pissing away billions when it's for something they deem patriotic?

Somewhere Glen Beck is massaging his prostate with hot tea bags, jerking off to the the Fox News coverage and cleaning his mess up with the Washington Times.
Pretty much what I was going to ask.

Also: Where the fuck were these people when the national debt of the US went from 7 or so trillion under Clinton to 12 under Bush?

Ka-Bar
15th April 09, 11:35 PM
12 billion/month =/= 700 billion.

Er, if you do it every month for 5 years, it does.

And we've been in Iraq for...

...wait for it...

Sirc
16th April 09, 12:18 AM
Obama will have spent more than Bush in 4 months what Bush spent in 4 years. Amazing.

theotherserge
16th April 09, 12:25 AM
Also: Where the fuck were these people when the national debt of the US went from 7 or so trillion under Clinton to 12 under Bush?

like, noone listens/cares until they lose their houses that they couldn't've afforded in the first place.

Now I'm supposed to care that we're 3 trillion more in debt? Like that is some kind of measure of competence? WTF is a trillion!?!? seriously. Good luck America.

Dagon Akujin
16th April 09, 12:35 AM
Fuck these right-wing nutsuckers. These things would be a great idea if it wasn't for them. But no. They have to turn these into "Oh, Obama is a Communist!" They turned it into "Liberals are ruining our Xtian Cuntry!"

Fuck them and fuck these stupid tea-bag parties. Making this The People v Obama makes this whole thing stupid because many of these people thought it was great when BushCo was pissing away their money. Fuck, Dittoheads still think Bush should be on Mt. Rushmore.

Fuck that. "Impeach Obama" posters? "Obama is a Muslim" signs? Fuck, you don't get it. "Abortion is Murder" placards? Go fuck yourself with your Bible, bitch.

http://www.sociocide.com/images/09-tax-day-tea-party/PICT0169.JPG

^^^^^These idiots don't get it. It's apparently okay to torture people, spend trillions frivolously, and trample civil rights if you say praise jesus loud enough while you do it. Most of these people were NOT PISSED OFF until they lost, and these rallies are serving simply as a way of proving that Republicans are a bunch of whiney baby faggots.

http://www.sociocide.com/images/09-tax-day-tea-party/PICT0233.JPG


^^^^^^^^^^^^^ You are a bunch of faggots.

These things should have started a few years ago. Then I'd be able to take them seriously and not think they were just bunch of bitches. But instead, they are just pushing more partisan bitchassness, cockmongering, and dickgobbling. Unfortunately, that's the trifecta that Conservatives have been scoring in this country for far too many years.

theotherserge
16th April 09, 12:48 AM
So after 8 years of liberals bitching, we get the inverse of right-wingers bitching for the next 4or8; dependingon wether we totally bankrupt or not. Don't tell me this "change" is working out as planned. Or that it's any different from the Soros/Daily Kos fringe.

We need to weed out the dumbass-extremists on both sides, maybe via waterboarding.

Ka-Bar
16th April 09, 12:56 AM
Obama will have spent more than Bush in 4 months what Bush spent in 4 years. Amazing.

Yeah, and we might actually have something to show for it. Like bridges that don't collapse and shit.

theotherserge
16th April 09, 01:00 AM
Alot of money for a "might"

Also, please see discussions re: Bridge/Dam/Tunnel/Disaster/etc projects run under ANY administration.

TheMightyMcClaw
16th April 09, 01:05 AM
For as much the phrase "whiny liberal" is a cliche, conservatives once again demonstrate that they can throw a tantrum with the best of them.
Except maybe for Libertarians who will complain regardless of who or what government is.
/unfounded stereotypes and generalizations

theotherserge
16th April 09, 01:21 AM
It does retort the "conservatives value the office of the President" thingy.

I'm all for the Tea Party demonstrations, remember that dissent is also Patriotic. It is way too much money to throw around and people are getting fixated on the left vs right issue when the heart of the matter is that my son and the people of his generation will be stuck with this mess.

Hedley LaMarr
16th April 09, 01:24 AM
These protests would have been a lot better without the "Obama is Muslim/Hitler/Muslim Hitler" thing. Seriously, that undermines the rest of the protest.

The secessionists in Texas aren't helping anything either.

There was also the use of children in the tea party protests. I drove by one in Fort Atkinson, WI where 10 year olds were holding up signs ranging from "Quit stealing from my future" to "obama's a muslim." Wish I had my camera with me. I've seen plenty of liberal protests in Madison, and kids may be there, but they don't hold up racist signs. The liberals may get extreme, but they don't get racist. The whole "quit stealing my future thing" has truth to it, but is the racist stuff really necessary?

JohnnyCache
16th April 09, 04:02 AM
When comparing the expenditures of the administrations, don't forget that bush fucked up the economy.

I mean, if I break a fucking window on my last day at work, it's not fair to call my replace "the guy who costs the company all that window money" because he's the one that has to replace it.

Also, the war budget and the . .. ah...budget budget were kept seperate for purposes of credit and propaganda, so bush basically charged the war to the next administration, and under-reported his own spending, while visibly hemorrhaging money like like a South Park aids patient.

Bitching out the obama admin for spending is like bitching out the guy who cleans up the tilt-a-whirl for puking.

The right also proposes ZERO solutions. Their way is so fucking out of touch, people with actual brains look at their economic proposal and almost literally say, "I don't know, I hope this is a joke, because if it isn't, we basically have speds in the senate"

It's time to abandon conservatism.

Shawarma
16th April 09, 04:04 AM
Abandon Republicanism, not conservatism, rather.

nihilist
16th April 09, 04:09 AM
There hasn't been a real Republican president since Nixon.

Shawarma
16th April 09, 04:11 AM
Swindling and anti-semitism being important tenets of the Republican party, of course.

EuropIan
16th April 09, 04:13 AM
double entendre density is very thick.

WOinq_IeCyY

socratic
16th April 09, 05:13 AM
Swindling and anti-semitism being important tenets of the Republican party, of course.

I wouldn't call it 'anti-semitism' so much as 'hating on anyone or anything that isn't a fatass rich white dude'.

Sirc
16th April 09, 07:20 AM
Yeah, and we might actually have something to show for it. Like bridges that don't collapse and shit.

HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAH!

I am mocking you.

Sirc
16th April 09, 07:31 AM
I think the true culprit here is Protesting in general.

NOBODY actually wants to do any real protesting. Protesting is meant to get shit done. What exactly is getting done here? Let me tell you the ways!

1. Jackasses get to make allegories to some historical thing that actually mattered, and have the balls to think it's of the same importance.

2. People feel better about themselves, because they went out an "supported" each other.

3. Nothing.

Seriously if all of these assholes just focused their energy and their time into something that would actually matter, like, oh, I don't know, CONTACTING THEIR CONGRESSMAN BY PROTESTING SOMEWHERE WHERE IT MATTERS INSTEAD OF JUST YELLING IN THE AIR HOPING THAT IT'LL CARRY THEIR STUPID VOICES ALL THE WAY TO THE CAPITOL.

God, I can't believe I have to share the same quality air with these people.

Ajamil
16th April 09, 09:41 AM
When comparing the expenditures of the administrations, don't forget that bush fucked up the economy.

Are you taking into account the Clinton era's determination to get everyone into a home whether they could afford it or not? Not saying Bush didn't have quite a lot to do with it, but these problems have been brewing for quite some time.

Spade: The Real Snake
16th April 09, 09:59 AM
Yeah, and we might actually have something to show for it. Like bridges that don't collapse and shit.

You are joking, aren't you?

HappyOldGuy
16th April 09, 11:06 AM
Are you taking into account the Clinton era's determination to get everyone into a home whether they could afford it or not? Not saying Bush didn't have quite a lot to do with it, but these problems have been brewing for quite some time.

This is a fucking FOX myth that has been debunked to hell and back.

First off the CRA was passed in the Carter administration.

Secondly, any number of analyses have shown that it was not a major factor in the collapse. I've posted links and discussions several times. Search function CRA+happyoldguy noob.

On the main topic. Why can't anyone who is quoting Ayn Rand actually spell?

Or shower?

nihilist
16th April 09, 11:16 AM
or pronounce the name.

Dagon Akujin
16th April 09, 11:30 AM
Signs from protests:


"Hope Obama Fails"

"Barrak Hussien Obama: Communist"

"Democrats and Obama are theives"

"Impeach Obama"

"Democrats replaced the white sheets with a welfare check to hold the minorities down" <------held, of course, by an old, fat white dude.

"Palin 2012"

http://d.yimg.com/a/p/afp/20090416/capt.photo_1239828714442-4-0.jpg
^^^^^Signs that blame the economic downturn solely on Obama.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3447/3315178706_e59a804a7f.jpg
^^^^^^ More "It's all the Liberal's fault 'cause us Conservatives should have won!"

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3613/3314180063_1cd7b066ce.jpg
^^^^^"It's all the Democrat's fault!"


http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3452/3318645197_614dd7f562.jpg
^^^^^^^And this is why I won't take these things seriously. Should read: "Our Politicians Are All Very Bad Men>"


http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3596/3313790621_3bab59808f.jpg
"Environmentalism is Communism"? Shouldn't that sign just read "Destroy the World God Gave You, Fags!"



http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3548/3314075113_ddce058685.jpg
^^^^^White people.


http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3644/3289290840_0a1a758989.jpg
^^^^^^^^More white people.


http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3547/3288473241_8e51559534.jpg
It's not okay to mock the office of the president. It's only okay for white children to mock black presidents. See? It's different.


http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3316/3314832850_8cfbba3786.jpg
^^^^^"Tea Bag Liberals and Democrats! POOP!!!" ????












I haven't seen this many angry white dudes in one place since the KKK rallied. Ooops! I shouldn't have pointed out the obvious.

Spade: The Real Snake
16th April 09, 11:34 AM
So there is a whole bunch of spoiled feelings over people protesting the President.....now?

jkdbuck76
16th April 09, 11:40 AM
We need to weed out the dumbass-extremists on both sides, maybe via waterboarding.

No. Waterboarding won't kill them.

Sirc
16th April 09, 11:42 AM
Signs from protests:
I haven't seen this many angry white dudes in one place since the KKK rallied. Ooops! I shouldn't have pointed out the obvious.

You were doing OK until this point. Now you just sound like a jackass and a racist.

But really, I think this country needs a good old fashioned invasion.

Dagon Akujin
16th April 09, 12:08 PM
So there is a whole bunch of spoiled feelings over people protesting the President.....now?

Don't get me wrong. I think this could be a great idea if it wasn't simply masking a bunch of partisan bitchiness. These protests need to lose the "It's all because of the liberals" or they won't accomplish anything. They should be "Our government sucks", not "One half of our country sucks (but especially black people, mexicans, democrats, and non-Christians)."

Spade: The Real Snake
16th April 09, 12:12 PM
Don't get me wrong. I think this could be a great idea if it wasn't simply masking a bunch of partisan bitchiness. These protests need to lose the "It's all because of the liberals" or they won't accomplish anything. They should be "Our government sucks", not "One half of our country sucks (but especially black people, mexicans, democrats, and non-Christians)."

Compare and contrast to previous protests, please.

elipson
16th April 09, 12:19 PM
Of all the things wrong with the world right now, rich white americans getting taxed is pretty low on my give-a-fuck list.

HappyOldGuy
16th April 09, 12:32 PM
Of all the things wrong with the world right now, rich white americans getting taxed is pretty low on my give-a-fuck list.

The 'white' bit was kinda kneejerk retarded, but other than that this^^^.

The ultimate punchline for the whole teabag protest movement is that there was probably not a single protester there who is going to get their taxes raised other than the FOX news talking head douches.

Spade: The Real Snake
16th April 09, 12:40 PM
Then how come Obama didn't set the stage properly for his proposed tax rates, claim no deductions or charitable gifts and, in a show of good faith for his plan, make it so he would pay roughly his 40% income tax rate?

JohnnyCache
16th April 09, 12:40 PM
Abandon Republicanism, not conservatism, rather.

No. Abandon CONSERVATISM.

Gonna post a little textwall here. Before you guys get your panties in a bunch, I love you guys, and I'm talking about "the people on TV" here so don't feel like I'm responding with direct personal criticism

Conservatism is stupid.

The idea that the status quo is a value, that spending money is intrinsically "bad," that government can't work, that centralization should be avoided based on a value, not on the merits of the efficiency of centralization...

You don't see the circularity and hypocrisy in sending people to govern that don't believe in government?

Conservatism in america has about five basic bullet points I can identify

Supply side economics - DISASTROUSLY stupid. That's why we can only get through 8 years of conservatism at a time

Military jingoism - seriously, fuck this. We have a GIGANTIC, TOPHEAVY military. A powerful military is a good symbolic and practical asset, but our military is TOO large and our military complex too expensive - the stated reason for this the possibility of another two-front world war, but the system we've produced is so topheavy it can barely fight two police actions in two neighboring small countries. It's clearly designed to create an economic niche for profiteers at the expense of our military effectiveness, our common soldier, and our taxpayers, and cries of coward and traitor are levied against anyone who tries to examine or reform the situation.

Social jingoism - the war on drugs? The border fence? Are you serious?

Social regression - Gays? Abortion? Why the fuck is congress wasting time on any of this shit.

An ostensible preference for capitalism - Cons support capitalism until it's time to collect a corn or tobacco subsidy, drive on an interstate highway, send their kids to a public school, take a tax break for a church or charity, or serve in the military. As a matter of fact, Cons support free markets basically . . . only when they perceive poor people to be getting something. The same people that DO see social value in wrecking people's lives for drug violations and forcing pregnancy on single mothers see NO cost benefit in providing a basal standard of living for the country and no cost benefit to diverting even a tiny portion of their precious military budget to something like african aids relief - something with far more potential to bite us in the ass than any given country in the world.

Isolationism/protectionism - policies that, historically, almost always lead to backwardness, ignorance, international embarrassment, and economic downturns.


Yes, I'm sure YOU'RE all libertarians - the philosophy beloved of 20-30 year old internet users, engineers, etc, and you're currently using your typing stylus to bang out an essay about how one or more of the above points disagrees with "real internet randian objectvist neitchian conservatism" but seriously libertarian and objectivist philosophy are as deeply flawed or more so then pure communism or Utopian anarchism. (Hint: There's no more reason to use one, pure system of government then there is to eat one specific food your whole life.)

How is the "CONSERVATIVE BUT NOT GOP" movement, specifically, also broken and out of touch?

Let's start with TEABAGGING

You're going to call back to a movement based on protesting taxation without representation to protest the first clearly mandated election in years? Of an administration that ran on a platform of intelligent tax and lifestyle cost relief for the middle class? And is actively demonstrating allegiance to that stated platform?

Also, the people who re-elected the administration who passed the patriot act, the people who wiped their ass with civil liberties and buttfucked the constitution harder than anyone since McCarthy have the balls to compare Obama to Hitler? Again, ARE YOU SERIOUS?

Let's move on to SUPPLY SIDE

The idea of trickle down is ludicrous to begin with - the idea that some guy gold plating his faucets generates all this economic activity by hiring a goldsmith and a plumber and shit. If not bullshit in principle, it has ALWAYS been so in practicality - the cost exemptions for the rich have always sheltered them in excessive of their re-investment, and allowed them to continue to bind immense fortunes. That's not a bad thing in and of itself - just as moderate supply side policy isn't a bad thing, but to justify AS and IN PLACE OF real mobility, support and relief structures for the middle and lower classes is intellectually insulting and patently untenable.

Regressive politicos have taken one tenet of a field and made policy based around it that doesn't work, because the lawmakers and their constituency are simply not wrapping their heads all the way around the concept, they're just stopping at the soundbite level. Basically, the supply side nightmare as applied in america is a situation where a city guy told a country guy "gas makes my car go" so the country guy decided if he gave his horse gas to drink, it would make the horse fast like a car. Obama is the guy going, "hey, maybe we should put some water on this flaming fucking horse? Maybe pump its stomach? Before it dies?"

Supply side is arguably a tenable method of market manipulation, but logically, why is it invoked as relief? Why is there a need to trickle stimulus down? The notion that the most logical and efficient way to financially relieve someone when the options are A) Give them relief or B) give someone else relief is B...that's . . . that's just dumb.

Let's move on to ECONOMIC IGNORANCE EN RE THE CRISIS

The current rightist response to the economic crisis involves a federal spending freeze. That's basically the worst possible idea. I was not at all kidding when I said credible economists looking at the con position literally ask if it's a joke.

The blame your neighbor jingoism - the "Where's my bailout" bullshit - reveals a deep ignorance of the practices that produced this crisis and an ignorance of the value modifier of lending vis a vis economic capitalization - something you'd think avowed free market capitalists would understand, but seriously, these people listen to Sean Hannity - what the fuck do they understand?

This is also the party of "fair taxation" and "pork reform" - a platform of squeeling outrage that "welfare moms" and "pet projects" are eatin' up all our precious tax dollars - of course, any sensible demographic model instantly reveals that the rank-and-file red stater draws more benefit, on average, from graduated tax and subsidy spending then the average blue-stater. And a huge chunk of that tax money goes to the war on drugs, and the . . . well, the war on peace, both of which conservatives support. (yes, once again, I'm aware that YOU THE READER are an internet randian and you'd totally legalize drugs and then win the war with galt-engine powered lasers...hint...if massive sci-fi handwaving is required to make your philosophy seal and hold water, it might be dumb)

Not to mention the misunderstanding of the cost of benefits - the understanding that the reason we are rapidly falling behind our canadian and european competition is that their "socialized" support systems work so much better than ours that our capitalist system can't match their output anymore, even with the massive initial advantages we held in the early industrial revolution...of course, that's complicated to explain and "George bush gimmie three hunnert dollars a my own fuckin' money back on tax day" makes much more fucking sense to the goldfish brain of bovine america.


Finally, social ignorance - ignoring the fundamental hypocrisy of wasting legislative time on items not requiring any federal mandate, the fact that people who are supposedly the lassiez faire party spend seemingly half to three quarters of their time attempting to legislate morality and behavior that doesn't suit them while ignoring deep and exploitative fiscal excesses that benefit them is so deeply illogical and hypocritical you have to be willingly self delusional to support it.

The conservative movement has degenerated into a soundbite culture of ignorant, do nothing complainers with unsupportable and incomprehensible philosophical underpinnings. They have a willful disregard for fact and truth, they are intellectually disgusting, auto-hypnotized, deeply hypocritical, and led by the most vapid people on earth - I refer, of course, to hyperbolic AM radio hosts. (who, by the way, are the fountainheads of this sort of reverse Arthur C. Clarke argument...IE "If the layperson doesn't understand it, it's magic, and that means the person saying it is a witch you can ignore"...see valid economic policy, intelligent drug policy, global climate change, realistic energy policy, sensible environmental law)

If you find yourself saying "Hey, I call myself a conservative, but I don't believe in that stuff"

Has it occurred to you it's time to stop voting for, supporting, and aligning yourself with these people?

I notice a lot of people on here are what I call an Atari conservative (as in they went so far off the right of the screen they popped up on the left) - the guy who is so conservative he's a liberal? Like "I'm for legalizing drugs but because I don't believe in government not because I like drugs" is the classic example.

Why don't you stop aligning yourself with the position that doesn't get you where you want to go, and start aligning yourself with the people that share your goals?

If enough of you do this, you have a chance of modifying the points of disagreement between yourselves and the left. (Ie gun control, where I deeply diverge with the average dem)

I can teach libs to love guns faster then I can teach cons to think, it seems.

edit: holy shit there were a lot of spelling errors in that.

JohnnyCache
16th April 09, 12:42 PM
Then how come Obama didn't set the stage properly for his proposed tax rates, claim no deductions or charitable gifts and, in a show of good faith for his plan, make it so he would pay roughly his 40% income tax rate?

obama just paid 800k on 2mil income

what else you got?

HappyOldGuy
16th April 09, 12:43 PM
Then how come Obama didn't set the stage properly for his proposed tax rates, claim no deductions or charitable gifts and, in a show of good faith for his plan, make it so he would pay roughly his 40% income tax rate?

I'm not sure what you are asking. Obama is comfortably north of the win/lose cutoff for his tax plan?

Spade: The Real Snake
16th April 09, 12:43 PM
obama just paid 800k on 2mil income

what else you got?

No, what else he got.

Under his plan, he would have needed to pay an addition 100K+.

Spade: The Real Snake
16th April 09, 12:43 PM
Anyone else here have an extra 100K+ lying around I could borrow?

HappyOldGuy
16th April 09, 12:47 PM
No, what else he got.

Under his plan, he would have needed to pay an addition 100K+.

And he will when his plan is enacted. You're not making any sense.

theotherserge
16th April 09, 12:50 PM
Don't get me wrong. I think this could be a great idea if it wasn't simply masking a bunch of partisan bitchiness. These protests need to lose the "It's all because of the liberals" or they won't accomplish anything. They should be "Our government sucks", not "One half of our country sucks (but especially black people, mexicans, democrats, and non-Christians)."
Snake is right, contrasted with the past 8 years, you're coming off like one of the righetous-assed Republicans that had full sway of Congress+White House. Instead of cherry-picking Maoist or PLO or Village Idiot etc characterizations, we have your posts above.

Nice going, and your point a what? 50% of the electoate pays no taxes, trillions of $ are being jacked into a bucket that my children and their children will pay for, but I can't complain because I'm white and therefore=the minority of idiots who go after Obama on character issues?

Zendetta
16th April 09, 12:54 PM
I can teach libs to love guns faster then I can teach cons to think, it seems.

You are the Wind beneath my Wings.

Spade: The Real Snake
16th April 09, 01:01 PM
And he will when his plan is enacted. You're not making any sense.

At least Bill Clinton claimed to empathize with the little man and state he felt our pain.

Obama is acting as if he is detracted from the entire situation and stated "he wasn't aware" of the Tea Parties.

Fine, he is unaware of the dissatisfaction of numerous people he claims to represent, however don't do the same bullshit hypocrisy you are castigating other for doing.

If you honestly don't think the top wage earners are paying enough and YOU are a top wage earner, then pay more by choice.

If you wish to have the rich pay more taxes, reduce/remove the charitable donations deductions, lead by example.

Show publicly that you are going to pay, without deductions, a flat 40% of your income and all the money you gave to charity is out of the goodness of you heart.

40% of $2.7million is over $1million. It isn't going to affect the governments budget in the least, it wouldn't have hurt his wallet, however he would have earned my respect for the symbolic gesture.

$100K is a yearly salary for some.
Two, three or four years worth for others.

Yes there would have been some crowing, "He can afford it" but more would see it my way.

elipson
16th April 09, 01:01 PM
I can teach libs to love guns faster then I can teach cons to think, it seems.
New sig.


The 'white' bit was kinda kneejerk retarded

Just going with what I saw in the pics. Didn't notice much colour in the crowd.

HappyOldGuy
16th April 09, 01:19 PM
If you honestly don't think the top wage earners are paying enough and YOU are a top wage earner, then pay more by choice.

If you wish to have the rich pay more taxes, reduce/remove the charitable donations deductions, lead by example.

Charity and taxes have fuck all to do with eachother. You are confusing two completely different things. Let me clarify a few concepts.

1) In a capitalist system. Wealth creates income which creates wealth. Therefore, without external intervention, the rich will alwaystend to get richer over time. Progressive taxation is the least damaging way to control this tendency. If you don't tax the wealthy more, then they keep getting wealthier.

2) Since reagan, the american tax system overall is almost perfectly flat. Clinton pushed back a little, but not much, then Bush turned it up to 11. High wage earners pay more income taxes, but less in payroll, use, property, sales, etc taxes. They are also more likely to receive more of their income in the form of capital gains which is taxed at a lower rate than the salary of a guy working at mcdonalds.

3) The results have been obvious since the Reagan revolution. The rich have gotten richer. We have by far the greatest wealth inequality in the industrialized world. And it gets worse every year. Trickle down fails. Real incomes for the bottom 40% of americans have been essentially flat since the late 70's.

HappyOldGuy
16th April 09, 01:19 PM
Just going with what I saw in the pics. Didn't notice much colour in the crowd.

You saw rich?

theotherserge
16th April 09, 01:28 PM
I saw "stupid"

I think there's a greater income inequity in Russia, actually. The grass is always greener?

HappyOldGuy
16th April 09, 01:38 PM
I saw "stupid"

I think there's a greater income inequity in Russia, actually. The grass is always greener?

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/eco_gin_ind-economy-gini-index

They are close, but we are a hair worse.

JohnnyCache
16th April 09, 01:39 PM
oh, I forgot to rant about "going galt"

This is going to sound like chuck norris facts about me for a second, but meh.

OK, I was literally raised by militant right wingers who live an off the grid survivalist lifestyle. Imagine if Sarah Conner and R. Lee Ermy had a kid.

If it fires bullets, I can shoot it. If it has wheels, I can drive it. I can reload ammo, make things like gunpowder and asprin from scratch, I can knapp glass, I can scuba dive, I can fly and sail. I hunt and fish. I have experience in mineral and aquifer exploitation geology, timber logging, practical electronics, construction, broadcast, all weather survival. I can walk through the rockies on a spring day with a gunny sack, and when I get home, it will be full of edible produce. I machine and weld. I fabricate rube-golberg one-off tools and equipment as part of my job on a routine basis. I grew up on a working farm and ranch. I was a boy scout. I can make fire with sticks. I roll my eyes at Les Stroud and Bear Grylls.

I am physically robust, mentally suited to solitude and autonomy.

TLDR: I'm one rant short of being the hero in a heinlien novel. The only people on earth better suited to dropping out and going off grid are fictional characters and guys who just got out of SERE school.

And I THINK GOING GALT IS STUPID

so good luck glen beck.

Sirc
16th April 09, 01:43 PM
Of all the things wrong with the world right now, rich white americans getting taxed is pretty low on my give-a-fuck list.

Way to miss the point.

JohnnyCache
16th April 09, 01:52 PM
No, what else he got.

Under his plan, he would have needed to pay an addition 100K+.
So you're basically saying he should have just paid taxes under tax law that hasn't been passed yet? There's...not even a mechanism for that.

His adherence to current tax law is somehow proof of the invalidity of his ideas? What point are you making? You're saying no one can legislate tax law until they pay under the system they're advocating before passing it? Is this even a real argument?

I also don't see what you're getting out about charitable giving. We do incentive charitable giving, yes. That's not a bad thing. Yes, if you're very clever and making certain exact thresholds of money, you can save yourself some tax money via donations. So? The law is designed that way. That's what it's supposed to do. That's WHY it was passed. This is an exact example of what I'm talking about: Here is a case where motivated self interest is being used to help people and cons whine about it.

elipson
16th April 09, 01:59 PM
I roll my eyes at Les Stroud and Bear Grylls.

I want my varrot back.

theotherserge
16th April 09, 02:01 PM
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/eco_gin_ind-economy-gini-index

They are close, but we are a hair worse.

I'm diasppointed, SAMBO should be owning these days!

Spade: The Real Snake
16th April 09, 02:04 PM
Charity and taxes have fuck all to do with eachother. You are confusing two completely different things. Let me clarify a few concepts.
No, they do.
Charitable donations are able to be percentage deducted in itemized from income.

To remove or reduce this is taking away a financial incentive for people with a greater percentage of income to give some of that away. It doesn't remove the feelgood aspect, however it takes the carrot off the stick.


1) In a capitalist system. Wealth creates income which creates wealth. Therefore, without external intervention, the rich will alwaystend to get richer over time. Progressive taxation is the least damaging way to control this tendency. If you don't tax the wealthy more, then they keep getting wealthier.

2) Since reagan, the american tax system overall is almost perfectly flat. Clinton pushed back a little, but not much, then Bush turned it up to 11. High wage earners pay more income taxes, but less in payroll, use, property, sales, etc taxes. They are also more likely to receive more of their income in the form of capital gains which is taxed at a lower rate than the salary of a guy working at mcdonalds.

3) The results have been obvious since the Reagan revolution. The rich have gotten richer. We have by far the greatest wealth inequality in the industrialized world. And it gets worse every year. Trickle down fails. Real incomes for the bottom 40% of americans have been essentially flat since the late 70's.

This has fuckall to do with Obama demonstrating he himself believes in his plan and just paying, right now, the rate he so strongly believes in. Remove medical deductions, remove childcare deductions, remove mortgage interest, remove charitable donations, remove state insurance registration, remove cost for filing income tax returns, remove any schedule C bullshit deductions he can cobble together.

Straight 40% on his $2.7 Million.

And an audit to figure out why his income halved in one year, robbing the federal goverment of all the luscious tax money it could have had.

Spade: The Real Snake
16th April 09, 02:10 PM
So you're basically saying he should have just paid taxes under tax law that hasn't been passed yet? There's...not even a mechanism for that.
Sure there is.
Claim NO deductions.


His adherence to current tax law is somehow proof of the invalidity of his ideas? What point are you making? You're saying no one can legislate tax law until they pay under the system they're advocating before passing it? Is this even a real argument?
Unlike several in his cabinet, including the Treasury Secretary, he did file his taxes.




I also don't see what you're getting out about charitable giving. We do incentive charitable giving, yes. That's not a bad thing. Yes, if you're very clever and making certain exact thresholds of money, you can save yourself some tax money via donations. So? The law is designed that way. That's what it's supposed to do. That's WHY it was passed. This is an exact example of what I'm talking about: Here is a case where motivated self interest is being used to help people and cons whine about it.
I agree, charitable donations and the tax deductions which come along with them are a great thing.

Too bad he wants to reduce the allowable amount.

HappyOldGuy
16th April 09, 02:12 PM
Sure there is.
Claim NO deductions.


I am not a tax lawyer, but I have a strong suspicion that would be fraud.

JohnnyCache
16th April 09, 02:15 PM
and since we're splitting 100k hairs here. . . they filed at 2.65 mil and paid 850k in federal and 77 k in state taxes. A flat 40% would have been 1,006,000 or so. They gave 172k to charity.

And it seems fair to mention that's bloat income from his book sales.

JohnnyCache
16th April 09, 02:20 PM
Dude, snake, what is your goddamn point? Are you trying to express the idea that Obama is advocating some sort of 40% flat tax? I do not get this weird point you're trying to make that he should just donate money to the government to show he really believes his own tax plan. I do not understand why you are wasting time thinking or talking about that.

You are engaging in some STRONG circle talk.

Epsilon: Seriously, they both suck. Les Stroud INFINITELY more, but even Bear stages things and does dumb "extreme" things (like drinking his own piss while he's still sweating and deliberately working during high sun in the desert) to make the show more grueling then educatory.

theotherserge
16th April 09, 02:41 PM
I like Bear's outfits better.

Spade: The Real Snake
16th April 09, 02:59 PM
I am not a tax lawyer, but I have a strong suspicion that would be fraud.

Then claim standard and not itemized deductions.


and since we're splitting 100k hairs here. . . they filed at 2.65 mil and paid 850k in federal and 77 k in state taxes. A flat 40% would have been 1,006,000 or so. They gave 172k to charity.

I realize that. However he is wishing to reduce the allowance in charitable donations and wishes to raise the tax rate for his income bracket to 40%.

Is this too much of a symbolic gesture to voluntarily not claim the 172K in charity?

Think of all the good works this additional $100K would do in the government's coffers.



Dude, snake, what is your goddamn point? Are you trying to express the idea that Obama is advocating some sort of 40% flat tax? I do not get this weird point you're trying to make that he should just donate money to the government to show he really believes his own tax plan. I do not understand why you are wasting time thinking or talking about that.

You are engaging in some STRONG circle talk.

I am not engaging in "Stong Circle Talk" I am expecting this man to lead by example and demonstrate he isn't out of touch with the people, as opposed to claiming he is "unaware" of mass gatherings across the country.

I read that under his tax plan, he would have paid a fair amount more in taxes.
Fine.
I also read he donates $170K+ to charities while running for office, no doubt for goodwill.
Fine.
I also read how he is wishing to reduce the allowable amount of charitable donations.
Fine.

I am of the opinion if he want the rest of us to follow suit, he should set the tone. Pay the maximum amount as we all need to make sacrifices, right?

HOG states he potentially can't claim any deductions?

Fine, don't itemize for maximum deductions, take the standard deductions and increase the amount you are paying.

My suggestion migh seem illogical to you but it doesn't negate it.

theotherserge
16th April 09, 03:08 PM
People need a certain amount of hypocricy out of their leaders. Perhaps it makes them more comfortable having high-ranking admins who have underreported their own taxes, juked the system and played two-face when necessary.

See: Sarah Palin on "family issues", Hillary Clinton who almost won the Primary, 19% approval rating for the idiots "they the people" voted into Congress, the inept California legislature, et. al. for further details...

JohnnyCache
16th April 09, 03:24 PM
Snake, your suggestion is . .. pointless. You're arguing that the standard to reform taxes should be that you pay that tax rate when it's not the law of the land. I guess that would be a very saintly personal gesture, but it's a pointless non-argument. You're bringing this non-argument back up to somehow impune sensible arguments for the Obama budget, and taking up space and time that could go to sensible arguemnts against it - for an appeal to emotion that flys in the face of logic, sense, or need and is not and never has been a practical item on the table. You've done this over many posts, so it's too late to retcon and say you were making some sort of offhand quip. Keeping that in mind, how is your line of "logic" not obfuscatory cross/circle talk?

Also, the reduction (of 7 cents on the dollar taxed, from 35 to 28) is simply the nullification of a bonus wealthy private individuals receive. It's part of a broad initiative to simplify taxation, and intended to be offset by reforms to the way large foundations give to charity, as well.

I'll be curious to see it's net real effect weighed against the changes in structure to, say, the PELL grant program alone.

It's a controversial policy and point of probable concession, but it isn't a huge point of hypocrisy or inconsistency, nor a reason to consider the budget as a whole flawed.

elipson
16th April 09, 03:37 PM
Oh come on, whats with the Stroud hate? You just don't like Canadians isn't it?

Grylls does INCREDIBLY stupid shit. Like showing ppl how to make an impromptu torch out of burlap sacks so he can go exploring an abandoned mine shaft. That's a whole other kind of stupid. But its still fun to watch.

Spade: The Real Snake
16th April 09, 04:05 PM
Snake, your suggestion is . .. pointless. You're arguing that the standard to reform taxes should be that you pay that tax rate when it's not the law of the land. I guess that would be a very saintly personal gesture, but it's a pointless non-argument. You're bringing this non-argument back up to somehow impune sensible arguments for the Obama budget, and taking up space and time that could go to sensible arguemnts against it - for an appeal to emotion that flys in the face of logic, sense, or need and is not and never has been a practical item on the table. You've done this over many posts, so it's too late to retcon and say you were making some sort of offhand quip. Keeping that in mind, how is your line of "logic" not obfuscatory cross/circle talk?

Also, the reduction (of 7 cents on the dollar taxed, from 35 to 28) is simply the nullification of a bonus wealthy private individuals receive. It's part of a broad initiative to simplify taxation, and intended to be offset by reforms to the way large foundations give to charity, as well.

I'll be curious to see it's net real effect weighed against the changes in structure to, say, the PELL grant program alone.

It's a controversial policy and point of probable concession, but it isn't a huge point of hypocrisy or inconsistency, nor a reason to consider the budget as a whole flawed.

Indeed.
Why should we expect him to lead by example when everyone else can do the heavylifting.

JohnnyCache
16th April 09, 04:20 PM
Again, he's taxing himself - to give you and me more money - and you're accusing him of pawning the heavy lifting off on us, and implying he's some kind of hypocrite, simply because he didn't preemptively pay that tax in the very year he proposed it...that's vacuous.

Spade: The Real Snake
16th April 09, 07:09 PM
Again, he's taxing himself - to give you and me more money - and you're accusing him of pawning the heavy lifting off on us, and implying he's some kind of hypocrite, simply because he didn't preemptively pay that tax in the very year he proposed it...that's vacuous.

He isn't giving me more money.

And it isn't vacuous.

He could have rendered the entire Tea Party Movement as ineffectual and impotent with two simple gestures:

1) Acknowledge he knew they existed. His refusal to acknowledge them was childish and immature.

2) Counter with a preemptive strike by stating he understood their purpose, he understood their intent, he understood the outrage by the taxpayers and as a symbolic gesture he was willing to pay a greater share.

Now, what manner of argument could have been thrown together by that?

Wounded Ronin
16th April 09, 07:23 PM
No. Abandon CONSERVATISM.

Gonna post a little textwall here. Before you guys get your panties in a bunch, I love you guys, and I'm talking about "the people on TV" here so don't feel like I'm responding with direct personal criticism

Conservatism is stupid.

The idea that the status quo is a value, that spending money is intrinsically "bad," that government can't work, that centralization should be avoided based on a value, not on the merits of the efficiency of centralization...

You don't see the circularity and hypocrisy in sending people to govern that don't believe in government?

Conservatism in america has about five basic bullet points I can identify

Supply side economics - DISASTROUSLY stupid. That's why we can only get through 8 years of conservatism at a time

Military jingoism - seriously, fuck this. We have a GIGANTIC, TOPHEAVY military. A powerful military is a good symbolic and practical asset, but our military is TOO large and our military complex too expensive - the stated reason for this the possibility of another two-front world war, but the system we've produced is so topheavy it can barely fight two police actions in two neighboring small countries. It's clearly designed to create an economic niche for profiteers at the expense of our military effectiveness, our common soldier, and our taxpayers, and cries of coward and traitor are levied against anyone who tries to examine or reform the situation.

Social jingoism - the war on drugs? The border fence? Are you serious?

Social regression - Gays? Abortion? Why the fuck is congress wasting time on any of this shit.

An ostensible preference for capitalism - Cons support capitalism until it's time to collect a corn or tobacco subsidy, drive on an interstate highway, send their kids to a public school, take a tax break for a church or charity, or serve in the military. As a matter of fact, Cons support free markets basically . . . only when they perceive poor people to be getting something. The same people that DO see social value in wrecking people's lives for drug violations and forcing pregnancy on single mothers see NO cost benefit in providing a basal standard of living for the country and no cost benefit to diverting even a tiny portion of their precious military budget to something like african aids relief - something with far more potential to bite us in the ass than any given country in the world.

Isolationism/protectionism - policies that, historically, almost always lead to backwardness, ignorance, international embarrassment, and economic downturns.


Yes, I'm sure YOU'RE all libertarians - the philosophy beloved of 20-30 year old internet users, engineers, etc, and you're currently using your typing stylus to bang out an essay about how one or more of the above points disagrees with "real internet randian objectvist neitchian conservatism" but seriously libertarian and objectivist philosophy are as deeply flawed or more so then pure communism or Utopian anarchism. (Hint: There's no more reason to use one, pure system of government then there is to eat one specific food your whole life.)

How is the "CONSERVATIVE BUT NOT GOP" movement, specifically, also broken and out of touch?

Let's start with TEABAGGING

You're going to call back to a movement based on protesting taxation without representation to protest the first clearly mandated election in years? Of an administration that ran on a platform of intelligent tax and lifestyle cost relief for the middle class? And is actively demonstrating allegiance to that stated platform?

Also, the people who re-elected the administration who passed the patriot act, the people who wiped their ass with civil liberties and buttfucked the constitution harder than anyone since McCarthy have the balls to compare Obama to Hitler? Again, ARE YOU SERIOUS?

Let's move on to SUPPLY SIDE

The idea of trickle down is ludicrous to begin with - the idea that some guy gold plating his faucets generates all this economic activity by hiring a goldsmith and a plumber and shit. If not bullshit in principle, it has ALWAYS been so in practicality - the cost exemptions for the rich have always sheltered them in excessive of their re-investment, and allowed them to continue to bind immense fortunes. That's not a bad thing in and of itself - just as moderate supply side policy isn't a bad thing, but to justify AS and IN PLACE OF real mobility, support and relief structures for the middle and lower classes is intellectually insulting and patently untenable.

Regressive politicos have taken one tenet of a field and made policy based around it that doesn't work, because the lawmakers and their constituency are simply not wrapping their heads all the way around the concept, they're just stopping at the soundbite level. Basically, the supply side nightmare as applied in america is a situation where a city guy told a country guy "gas makes my car go" so the country guy decided if he gave his horse gas to drink, it would make the horse fast like a car. Obama is the guy going, "hey, maybe we should put some water on this flaming fucking horse? Maybe pump its stomach? Before it dies?"

Supply side is arguably a tenable method of market manipulation, but logically, why is it invoked as relief? Why is there a need to trickle stimulus down? The notion that the most logical and efficient way to financially relieve someone when the options are A) Give them relief or B) give someone else relief is B...that's . . . that's just dumb.

Let's move on to ECONOMIC IGNORANCE EN RE THE CRISIS

The current rightist response to the economic crisis involves a federal spending freeze. That's basically the worst possible idea. I was not at all kidding when I said credible economists looking at the con position literally ask if it's a joke.

The blame your neighbor jingoism - the "Where's my bailout" bullshit - reveals a deep ignorance of the practices that produced this crisis and an ignorance of the value modifier of lending vis a vis economic capitalization - something you'd think avowed free market capitalists would understand, but seriously, these people listen to Sean Hannity - what the fuck do they understand?

This is also the party of "fair taxation" and "pork reform" - a platform of squeeling outrage that "welfare moms" and "pet projects" are eatin' up all our precious tax dollars - of course, any sensible demographic model instantly reveals that the rank-and-file red stater draws more benefit, on average, from graduated tax and subsidy spending then the average blue-stater. And a huge chunk of that tax money goes to the war on drugs, and the . . . well, the war on peace, both of which conservatives support. (yes, once again, I'm aware that YOU THE READER are an internet randian and you'd totally legalize drugs and then win the war with galt-engine powered lasers...hint...if massive sci-fi handwaving is required to make your philosophy seal and hold water, it might be dumb)

Not to mention the misunderstanding of the cost of benefits - the understanding that the reason we are rapidly falling behind our canadian and european competition is that their "socialized" support systems work so much better than ours that our capitalist system can't match their output anymore, even with the massive initial advantages we held in the early industrial revolution...of course, that's complicated to explain and "George bush gimmie three hunnert dollars a my own fuckin' money back on tax day" makes much more fucking sense to the goldfish brain of bovine america.


Finally, social ignorance - ignoring the fundamental hypocrisy of wasting legislative time on items not requiring any federal mandate, the fact that people who are supposedly the lassiez faire party spend seemingly half to three quarters of their time attempting to legislate morality and behavior that doesn't suit them while ignoring deep and exploitative fiscal excesses that benefit them is so deeply illogical and hypocritical you have to be willingly self delusional to support it.

The conservative movement has degenerated into a soundbite culture of ignorant, do nothing complainers with unsupportable and incomprehensible philosophical underpinnings. They have a willful disregard for fact and truth, they are intellectually disgusting, auto-hypnotized, deeply hypocritical, and led by the most vapid people on earth - I refer, of course, to hyperbolic AM radio hosts. (who, by the way, are the fountainheads of this sort of reverse Arthur C. Clarke argument...IE "If the layperson doesn't understand it, it's magic, and that means the person saying it is a witch you can ignore"...see valid economic policy, intelligent drug policy, global climate change, realistic energy policy, sensible environmental law)

If you find yourself saying "Hey, I call myself a conservative, but I don't believe in that stuff"

Has it occurred to you it's time to stop voting for, supporting, and aligning yourself with these people?

I notice a lot of people on here are what I call an Atari conservative (as in they went so far off the right of the screen they popped up on the left) - the guy who is so conservative he's a liberal? Like "I'm for legalizing drugs but because I don't believe in government not because I like drugs" is the classic example.

Why don't you stop aligning yourself with the position that doesn't get you where you want to go, and start aligning yourself with the people that share your goals?

If enough of you do this, you have a chance of modifying the points of disagreement between yourselves and the left. (Ie gun control, where I deeply diverge with the average dem)

I can teach libs to love guns faster then I can teach cons to think, it seems.

edit: holy shit there were a lot of spelling errors in that.


Holy shit, thread won. Goddamn, I want to see a newspaper editorial like this. Last night when I was in the health club locker room and Fox News was on the table it struck me that the stuff that was being said on that channel was totally devoid of anything except for ideological posturing.

Dagon Akujin
16th April 09, 07:31 PM
And an audit to figure out why his income halved in one year, robbing the federal goverment of all the luscious tax money it could have had.

You are still looking for boogie-men in your closet. Obama made more cash from his book sales in '07 than in '08. (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/apr/16/obamas-income-decreased-in-2008/) Duh.


The reason I'm blinded by piss upset about this is because I think protesting the government, and especially it's need to fuck money out the window, is a fucking grand idea. I'd just wish it wasn't tied to so many dickweeds, idiots, talking-heads, hypocrits, fat white guys, Plumber Joes, hockey moms, and "conservatives". Seriously, Palin 2012?

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2277/2235605544_cb83ffbd83.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2298/2235605620_a570ce61a0.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2339/2235605860_248b48ab50.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2184/2234816631_a53cfe404e.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2107/2235605698_b2c8efcd79.jpg


Shouldn't we all be projectile vomiting vinagar over our government's ability to smile and do shit-all?

theotherserge
16th April 09, 08:24 PM
^well yes, but you've given us massive postings that spit out your contempt for the usual suspects. What does that change?

I voted against every Cali-state bond measure last cycle cause even an idiot like me could see we're in over our heads. Every single measure passed! $300+billion. We've been place 50th in the nation for credit-rating, our assembly sucks but since they're Democrat they get voted back in even with abysmal approval ratings and internal scandals.
They totally suck and there is fuck'all I can do about it. Construction is down 49% and good, had working people I know are fucked. Meanwhile, our bloated state goes for work furloughs instead of downsizing!

How is this relevant? Nationwide, were enacting basically the same $-disaster by throwing money at our problems. It's not even our money, it's mostly the Chinese. Remember Red China you human rights idiots? 50-70 million dead under Mao, give or take (nice to have that much slop in a death toll) Want to bitch about WalMarts outsourcing to China? Have a gander at how much the US govt has outpaced Sam Walton.

Yeah, complain about stupid-whitey...

Sirc
16th April 09, 08:55 PM
Shit, whats the cliffs on all this noise?

JohnnyCache
16th April 09, 10:59 PM
He isn't giving me more money.

And it isn't vacuous.

He could have rendered the entire Tea Party Movement as ineffectual and impotent with two simple gestures:

1) Acknowledge he knew they existed. His refusal to acknowledge them was childish and immature.

2) Counter with a preemptive strike by stating he understood their purpose, he understood their intent, he understood the outrage by the taxpayers and as a symbolic gesture he was willing to pay a greater share.

Now, what manner of argument could have been thrown together by that?
You're running a quarter mil household? I thought you were in the military.

As for rendering the teabagging movement ineffectual and impotent, all he has to do to make that happen is . . . nothing. There's no need to attempt to appease them and no point in doing so because it can't be done. Obama's critics CREATED this whole "Messiah Obama" line of reasoning precisely because you need to move the bar the way Lucy moves her football to have any hope of making him look bad.

You're fussing because someone who thinks your movement is stupid pretty much said so. You're not entitled to infinite patience and diplomacy from someone you openly undermine and deplore. Why on earth should he not minimize you completely? No one teabagging has any interest in bipartisanship or co-operation, why bother blithering niceties at them?

Finally, you know what? Source that quote as first hand from the whitehouse. from a non conservative news outlet. Like say an ABC news transcript. Or maybe first hand from the white house press secretary.

HappyOldGuy
16th April 09, 11:15 PM
It's not like the teabaggers are even anything like a movement. It's just a collection of people with radically different agendas who only agree that they don't like Obama.

It's like the WTO protesters without the skill at street drama.

If they were all being played by MSNBC,

theotherserge
17th April 09, 12:19 AM
Shit, whats the cliffs on all this noise?
We're fucked. No one cares. See you eight years+$3,000,000,000 later.

HappyOldGuy
17th April 09, 12:25 AM
We're fucked. No one cares. See you eight years+$3,000,000,000 later.
Alternately. Economics is like religion. Everyone has an opinion, and they are absolutely sure it's the best one, but the only way to actually know the truth is to die.

theotherserge
17th April 09, 12:46 AM
^I'll take that for a dollar!

I really like Obama, I voted for him and not in a "stuffwhitepeoplelike" kind of way. I don't blame him for this shit-pile. However, I don't like alot of the old cronies he's working with.

I don't see the light at the end if the tunnel on this one, I've basically gone grey market-side jobs for cash-cause there isn't any work out there. If rich people don't have money to spend/incentive to spend it, peeps like me don't have a job.

The thing I hate the most is two experts in economics/whatever can give their opinion, both sound 100% certain of their diametrically opposed views. I have a few friends/clients worth millions, they're holding back on everything.

Perhaps Snake's narrow "confidence" move isn't so far off, who wants to stick out their neck in such a situation? We look to leadership for inspiration, in part....

Ahhh fuck it.

Shawarma
17th April 09, 03:19 AM
The tea party movement is not important and can be safely ignored. Which Obama does.

Any questions?

JohnnyCache
17th April 09, 03:56 AM
The tea party movement is not important and can be safely ignored. Which Obama does.

Any questions?

OH I forgot to mention the guy with the "I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore" sign

That is, of course, the immortal slogan from Network, the slogan shouted from the rooftops by a man who "just ran out of bullshit" one day.

Network is about the vapidity of media, the interconnection of industry and media, and the intersection of politics and media, and the concept of reality TV - the deliberate instigation of news and the blending of news and fiction.

It is, in general, roundly critical of these ideas. It came out in about 1977.

The concept of putting the slogan from Network on the sign that Fox News and Glenn Beck told you to make ... it's infuriating. To paraphrase david cross, it's not a little wrong, like saying penultimate when you mean ultimate, it's exactly fucking backwards. It means he's either never seen his source material or managed to watch it for 2+ hours without detecting any hint of satire or irony.

Spade: The Real Snake
17th April 09, 08:01 AM
You're running a quarter mil household? I thought you were in the military.
No, I am not nor ever was in the military.
For all intents I am self-employed in a family business which does quite well.

Now, this doesn't mean I get to keep all the money, we have a dozen employees and high overhead, however it is a C-Corp and taxed as such.


As for rendering the teabagging movement ineffectual and impotent, all he has to do to make that happen is . . . nothing. There's no need to attempt to appease them and no point in doing so because it can't be done. Obama's critics CREATED this whole "Messiah Obama" line of reasoning precisely because you need to move the bar the way Lucy moves her football to have any hope of making him look bad.

You're fussing because someone who thinks your movement is stupid pretty much said so. You're not entitled to infinite patience and diplomacy from someone you openly undermine and deplore. Why on earth should he not minimize you completely? No one teabagging has any interest in bipartisanship or co-operation, why bother blithering niceties at them?

It was his supporters who created the Messiah complex. His critic pointed out he had very little experience as compared to McCain.

By stating he is "unaware" of mass demonstrations by numerous people across the country, he demonstrates he is either ignorant, contemptuous or ambivalent.

It would have been a brilliant counterstrategy.


Finally, you know what? Source that quote as first hand from the whitehouse. from a non conservative news outlet. Like say an ABC news transcript. Or maybe first hand from the white house press secretary.

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/julia-seymour/2009/04/15/abc-reports-obama-unaware-tea-parties


"The White House says the president is unaware of the tea parties and will hold his own event today," ABC's Dan Harris said on "Good Morning America" on April 15.



You are still looking for boogie-men in your closet. Obama made more cash from his book sales in '07 than in '08. (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/apr/16/obamas-income-decreased-in-2008/) Duh.

No shit.
I was being sarcastic.
However do you think YOU would escape the IRS scrutiny if your income halved like that? A full Two Million Dollars?

I was warned by my accountant that I had too much in charitable donations and would be flagged for an audit, so "let's just shave it down a bit"

Shawarma
17th April 09, 08:14 AM
Why do people make any kind of deal out of Obama claiming to be "unaware?" Of course he's aware, he just doesn't feel especially threatened by these tiny protests and can thus afford to completely ignore them and downplay their importance.

Spade: The Real Snake
17th April 09, 08:26 AM
Why do people make any kind of deal out of Obama claiming to be "unaware?" Of course he's aware, he just doesn't feel especially threatened by these tiny protests and can thus afford to completely ignore them and downplay their importance.

I found it disingenuous because he and his staff made such a big deal out of two known right-wing talk show host's comments.

They were quick to respond to Limbaugh and Hannity, two guys with known agendas but not to mass demonstrations across the country.

Why not ignore their axe-grinding and acknowledge the average American? Why the other way around?

Shawarma
17th April 09, 08:30 AM
Firstly, these protests are tiny. Secondly, they're astroturfastic. Still don't see why he needs to address those specific protests.

Spade: The Real Snake
17th April 09, 08:33 AM
So they are beneath him in your opinion?

theotherserge
17th April 09, 09:58 AM
The tea party movement is not important and can be safely ignored. Which Obama does.

Any questions?

so I am right:


We're fucked. No one cares. See you eight years+$3,000,000,000 later.

HappyOldGuy
17th April 09, 10:41 AM
Naah. It's not that bleak. I strongly suspect that Obama is actually doing (mostly) the right thing for the economy. It's just that at this point the ride is out of our control, so we just have to hope for change.

Also, JohnnyCache is on a fucking roll. Network forfucksake!

EuropIan
17th April 09, 10:51 AM
OH I forgot to mention the guy with the "I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore" sign

That is, of course, the immortal slogan from Network, the slogan shouted from the rooftops by a man who "just ran out of bullshit" one day.

Network is about the vapidity of media, the interconnection of industry and media, and the intersection of politics and media, and the concept of reality TV - the deliberate instigation of news and the blending of news and fiction.

It is, in general, roundly critical of these ideas. It came out in about 1977.

The concept of putting the slogan from Network on the sign that Fox News and Glenn Beck told you to make ... it's infuriating. To paraphrase david cross, it's not a little wrong, like saying penultimate when you mean ultimate, it's exactly fucking backwards. It means he's either never seen his source material or managed to watch it for 2+ hours without detecting any hint of satire or irony.
Keith Olberman acted out that exact scene last year and it was dumb back then (the on thing I got out of it was I was interged enough to search for the movie).

Shawarma
17th April 09, 11:20 AM
Naah. It's not that bleak. I strongly suspect that Obama is actually doing (mostly) the right thing for the economy. It's just that at this point the ride is out of our control, so we just have to hope for change.

Also, JohnnyCache is on a fucking roll. Network forfucksake!
Well, I gotta admit that the devious conservative slash liberal media has succeeded in getting ME fucking confused. I have no idea whether all this throwing money at banks and auto dealers and stuff is having the desired effect.

theotherserge
17th April 09, 11:40 AM
Naah. It's not that bleak. I strongly suspect that Obama is actually doing (mostly) the right thing for the economy. It's just that at this point the ride is out of our control, so we just have to hope for change.

Also, JohnnyCache is on a fucking roll. Network forfucksake!

I hope that hope is sufficent. It's a graveyard out here and watching us head in the over-leveraged models of Japan and Califonia worries me to no end.

I'm lucky I have hand skills; I've corralled with a group of people so that, if it gets any worse, we'll star bartering.

HappyOldGuy
17th April 09, 11:51 AM
Are you in residential or commercial? The folks I know i commercial are still working (some) but having to travel ridiculous distances. I hear residential is fucked though.

theotherserge
17th April 09, 12:02 PM
Yeah, residential. Commercial projects are still under contract so as long as their financing holds, they could tough it out.

Did you know that I'm also a plumber? Neither did I! It's at the point where I don't give a shit, as long as it pays. I'm considering getting into Solar, as that will probably be the only growth cycle in the industry, but that will largely depend on Government (read our) money which brings me back to my original concern.

JohnnyCache
17th April 09, 02:04 PM
No, I am not nor ever was in the military.
For all intents I am self-employed in a family business which does quite well.

Now, this doesn't mean I get to keep all the money, we have a dozen employees and high overhead, however it is a C-Corp and taxed as such.



It was his supporters who created the Messiah complex. His critic pointed out he had very little experience as compared to McCain.

By stating he is "unaware" of mass demonstrations by numerous people across the country, he demonstrates he is either ignorant, contemptuous or ambivalent.

It would have been a brilliant counterstrategy.



http://newsbusters.org/blogs/julia-seymour/2009/04/15/abc-reports-obama-unaware-tea-parties




No shit.
I was being sarcastic.
However do you think YOU would escape the IRS scrutiny if your income halved like that? A full Two Million Dollars?

I was warned by my accountant that I had too much in charitable donations and would be flagged for an audit, so "let's just shave it down a bit"

1)Newsbusters.org is a conservative blog
2)I said sourced from the white house, not Dan Harris.

In what way did he "avoid scrutiny" - his taxes are literally front page news. He has the most scrutinized tax return on the planet.

Are you saying that Obama should have had his obviously meticulously vetted and widely published tax return audited at tax payer expense because your accountant said there was an increase in risk for you, personally, if you did or didn't take a certain step with your taxes? Maybe it could be paid for with the extra tax money you think he should randomly pay to meet your personal expectations, and everything would balance out.

Are you even trying to make sense?

As for your counterstrategy, get it through your head - Obama does not care about one percent of the country who are too butthurt over the election to even think for themselves about the cost/value of his policy. There is no way to reason with them in a timely manner. His job is running the country, not deprogramming AM radio cultists.

theotherserge
17th April 09, 03:56 PM
I'm thinking about the cost/value. I'm living it. I want to hang onto my house, it is hard enough these days to manage that. I'm supposed to help bail out:

•home buyers who never intended to pay for their homes
•Wall Street millionaires
•illegal aliens continued education/health-care/jailing
•Auto companies that haven't had their shit together since 1967
•Nancy Pelosi's Social/Lobbyist driven agenda
•The billions that are being spent and they can't even account for it all?
•If I ran construction crews the way they ran this dog&pony show, I'd be deep in lawsuits.

Shut up and bend over?

theotherserge
17th April 09, 03:59 PM
Also, we took the $7,500 new home buyer incentive loan that we qualified for. It's not a bad deal, we re-pay annually out of our tax returns.

The whole lump went to our property taxes. This shell game makes no sense sometimes...

Robot Jesus
17th April 09, 04:03 PM
•If I ran construction crews the way they ran this dog&pony show, I'd be deep in lawsuits.


If you ran it there way your legal team would take care of it.

HappyOldGuy
17th April 09, 04:04 PM
If you ran it there way your legal team would take care of it.

Especially the part where your legal team gets to write the laws :cool:.

theotherserge
17th April 09, 04:12 PM
Especially the part where your legal team gets to write the laws :cool:.
^thank you! Jesus, the only time people pretend to like construction is on "This Old House/Piece of Shit"

JohnnyCache
19th April 09, 12:53 PM
I'm thinking about the cost/value. I'm living it. I want to hang onto my house, it is hard enough these days to manage that. I'm supposed to help bail out:

•home buyers who never intended to pay for their homes
•Wall Street millionaires
•illegal aliens continued education/health-care/jailing
•Auto companies that haven't had their shit together since 1967
•Nancy Pelosi's Social/Lobbyist driven agenda
•The billions that are being spent and they can't even account for it all?
•If I ran construction crews the way they ran this dog&pony show, I'd be deep in lawsuits.

Shut up and bend over?

The top two are largely fictive constructs, the 3rd one is dubious at best (since those people work cheaply, they save employers almost as much payroll tax and wage as they would pay in income tax, so their net cost to the economy is uncertain, not to mention proposed measure to exclude them are not free)

the last three are argumentative constructions

that leaves the auto companies, which have basically been humbled - IIRC Ford's not even taking any money, and the others are being financed and restructered, not gifted with free money to keep operating as they have been.

Finally, the current (140 day old) administration is working very hard and fast to alliviate those inherited situations, as far as I can tell, in a logical and economically smart way.

also, found this online and it made me lol

http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m51/mcpreacher/teapartydouches.jpg

Ajamil
19th April 09, 04:57 PM
I wonder how many seeing that would actually get the joke.

Edit: Those protestors are a danger to the community!! They've blocked that "NO Turn on red" sign, and that minivan has now clearly turned, whilst the light was RED!! Arrest them!

theotherserge
19th April 09, 05:03 PM
JohnnyCache, you missed the part where I work in construction and live in Californa? You want to tell me more about my "fictive constructions"?

Robot Jesus
19th April 09, 05:18 PM
ad hominem

theotherserge
19th April 09, 05:58 PM
ad hominem
I figured it was more of "Argument from Authority"

However, I have seen the bulk of these changes over the past 20 years and I don't like where it's gotten us. I'm also worried about the Fed thowing around gigantic sums if money in a Nationalized version of the defecit-disaster that California is.

Robot Jesus
19th April 09, 07:46 PM
I blame the direct democracy in california for its doomed status.

theotherserge
19th April 09, 07:55 PM
I blame the direct democracy in california for its doomed status.
^there could not be a better example in the world of this level of Fail. Except the "Moonlight Sonata" I just heard played on a banjo, WTF!?!

Harpy
19th April 09, 08:35 PM
You are a man of many surprises serge.

theotherserge
19th April 09, 08:44 PM
You are a man of many surprises serge.
You're not a banjo player bychance? In between Hayden and Scribian they give me this fracking light-hearted fluff, right between the cheeks!

Harpy
19th April 09, 08:47 PM
I think you mean 'Haydn'. You have to listen to Solal...to die for.

Not a banjo player.

theotherserge
19th April 09, 09:03 PM
Yeah^hard to type on this iPen0r!

Solal is a little to upbeat for my Teutonic core...

Harpy
19th April 09, 09:06 PM
Okay, so Scarlatti maybe?