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Sirc
13th April 09, 03:06 AM
There's a pizza parlor near me called "Pizza Fusion" which touts about how they use nothing but "organic" ingredients and are very "green." Their delivery car is a prius.

This is something that has bothered me a whole bunch recently. I grew up living on a ranch/farm and have always been under the understanding that organic farming is just as detrimental to the environment as intensive farming, and in most cases, even more harmful. It takes a LOT more space to grow the same amount of crops on a organic farm than a regular intensive farm. For example, on our 40 acre farm, we used about 4 acres of it to grow sweet peas. It's a pretty high-maintenance crop and an organic farm would need about 10-12 acres of land to sufficiently grow the same amount we would.

Sure they're not using man made pesticides, but the amount we used was not harmful. I was 10 working on the farm spraying the crops, and I have never had any health problem stemming from it. The area around our farm (we still own it) is still healthy and hasn't suffered from the last 25 years of farming we've done. However, the organic farmers around our farm use an immense amount of their "organic pesticides" to prevent creatures from eating their crops. It's not even worth it to become 'organic' just to get the label as it's so harmful. My grandparents are actually pretty upset right now because the nearby organic farmer's "organic pesticides" are: 1. Not working. 2. Making the soil non-usable and it's seeping into our property. I don't work on the farm anymore so I'm not all caught up on the newest farming bullshit. But, the amount of effort and work and waste that is put into organic farming just doesn't seem to be worth it. Why do people think it is? Is this new "feel good" way of things really worth killing off usable soil and hurting the environment?

Robot Jesus
13th April 09, 03:35 AM
in my experience organic produce sometimes tastes better, but I'm not shure how much of that is placebo effect.

secondly; so now your a farmer/computer tech/martial artist/shaman?

your EXP penalty must be epic.

Craigypooh
13th April 09, 03:35 AM
It's because of news articles like this:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4740609.stm

and this
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/organic-farming-could-feed-africa-968641.html

and not enough like this:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/theroyalfamily/1947287/Prince-Philip-questions-benefits-of-organic-farms.html

Sirc
13th April 09, 03:46 AM
in my experience organic produce sometimes tastes better, but I'm not shure how much of that is placebo effect.

secondly; so now your a farmer/computer tech/martial artist/shaman?

your EXP penalty must be epic.

Oh, don't get me wrong. I only have an inkling of how farming works. I only worked on the farm from when I was ~8 until about ~12. The only think I even remotely know how to do is raise chickens. Otherwise I was just cheap labor. I have a basic idea on how plants grow but it has nothing to do with farming so much as I just paid attention in biology class.

The grandparents on my mother's side own the farm. My grandfather on my dad's side was the "shaman."

The better taste is definitely a placebo affect, because generally "organic" foods aren't grown properly, as i understand it, and actually have a loss of nutrition from being saturated with "natural pesticides" and being crowded.

Cullion
13th April 09, 04:49 AM
I am highly skeptical of much the environmental movement has to say.

I sometimes find 'organic' fruits and vegetables have a stronger flavour, but not massively.

Where I notice a big difference is in meat and fish. Livestock raised on its natural diet with freedom to move always tastes much better to me.

jubei33
13th April 09, 05:08 AM
what is an "organic pesticide"? Some kind of solution of capsaicin?

There was this guy one of artsy friends was always touting as 'just like a chemist' and 'knows all the herbal supplements, tell you anything about them' kind of guy. So, I finally got to meet this 'chemist' twit and he turns out to be this homeopathy guy giving this line about how normal medicine is the real poison. He and I exchanged some not so nice words. Later on, He got shut down for selling mercury and lead laced tinctures.

Truculent Sheep
13th April 09, 05:56 AM
The main force driving organic farming is the same-old-same-old of conspicuous consumption, which is to say, how the well-off and pretentious make themselves stand out from other people.

Since the peasants can now all afford cheap, mass-produced food, the bien pensants adopt organic partly as a way of saying 'hey! We can afford this and you can't!', but also as a means of expressing social superiority. ('We're ethical consumers! Damn you and your cheap frozen vegetables! You earth-rapists!')

Never forget how rich and often aristocratic the environmental/organic movement really is. It's all about power and keeping people down.

Cullion
13th April 09, 06:34 AM
It's true. The worst people for twatting on about saving the planet are trustafarians looking for something to talk about at parties. Zac Goldsmith, David Rothschild, Al Gore etc.

EuropIan
13th April 09, 06:41 AM
The meat is still of better quality.

As Cullion pointed out.


As for status and stuff.


I guess it's the equivalent to bottled water bullshit.

I still say "fair trade" products are the bigger villains here.

Robot Jesus
13th April 09, 06:43 AM
what is an "organic pesticide"? Some kind of solution of capsaicin?

There was this guy one of artsy friends was always touting as 'just like a chemist' and 'knows all the herbal supplements, tell you anything about them' kind of guy. So, I finally got to meet this 'chemist' twit and he turns out to be this homeopathy guy giving this line about how normal medicine is the real poison. He and I exchanged some not so nice words. Later on, He got shut down for selling mercury and lead laced tinctures.
the one i know of is sulfer

basicly they speread simpler poisons around. the ons that are not tailor made to not kill things we likw.

Quikfeet509
13th April 09, 08:54 AM
How do pesticides / fungacides work? Does this mechanism affect humans as well?

Quikfeet509
13th April 09, 08:57 AM
I still say "fair trade" products are the bigger villains here.



How exactly?

EuropIan
13th April 09, 09:05 AM
in smugness factor vs. actual effect.

Cullion
13th April 09, 09:26 AM
How do pesticides / fungacides work? Does this mechanism affect humans as well?

They don't all work the same way, but some can be harmful to humans or other wildlife.

However, for produce to be labelled 'organic' in some countries it has extreme restrictions on what lab-produced chemicals or drugs can be used, where potentially more dangerous substances can be used because they're 'natural'.

Enviro-hippies sometimes forget that deadly nightshade and rattlesnake poison are 'natural'.

For example, some of the tastiest English-raised beef I've ever had comes from a local farm where the cows are all grass-fed Charolais allowed to roam free rather than kept in pens. However, they can't call them 'organic' because they give them antibiotics when they're sick.

Artful Dentures
13th April 09, 10:32 AM
I started shopping for meat by accident at an organic butcher

the quality in flavor of the meat products to grovery market products is night and day.

It's at the point where I don't want to eat meat from anywhere else as it's always a big disappointment.

However I overheard a conversation there once when someone asked if they are Organic and they said no, because they get their stuff from one farmer and he doesn't belong to any organic organization because they're a scam.

Like Cullion his animals, are all free ranged and naturally fed (grass instead of hormone laced grain.)

Here's another thing

The meat costs more

BUT....

It's not injected with water or die to make it look plumber
So the huge double chicken breat I buy for $10 can feed 4 peopl ewhere as the chicken breast at the Grocery store for $3 can only feed one.

So it is in fact cheaper to buy the better quality stuff.

AND

way better

(Goes out and cleans BBQ)

Sirc
13th April 09, 11:11 AM
The thing about "free range" and "organic" meat is that in order to be able to put that on your products you just have to allow the animals to be out of their stables every once in a while and when they get sick, you let them die and can't pump them full of steroids.

Which is fine and dandy.

But is the reason it costs so much. They can afford to lose livestock and they can justify charging that much money for the meat. I also think it's attributed to your locations.

Living in the heart of the valley, my meat is fresh. The beef in the supermarket probably came from a farm that is within 20 miles of that market. I hardly taste any difference between the "organic" meat vs "normal" meat. Granted the nearest "organic" meat farm is a good 100ish miles away, I believe. I still can't take a real stand on organic meat.

Dark Helmet
13th April 09, 11:22 AM
in smugness factor vs. actual effect.
Is this your opinion or is it based on an article you read?

Because I gots to say that the African family smiling at me from that photo above my favorite brand of "fair trade" coffee look happy.

jkdbuck76
13th April 09, 11:34 AM
Here's the fun part: my wife is allergic to food preservatives (and all other petro chemicals).

5 years ago, she switched to organic and "all-natural" foods. Until that happened, she barfed and shat herself to near death every night. But back then, it was hard to find organic food in Shitsinnati, Ohio. Fast forward to today, now organic and all natural food is everywhere. It is big business.

Why? Because they were able to tag it to the Green movement. Somehow, by eating organic food and wearing hemp underwear, we are doing such a huge fucking favor to Planet Earth or some kind of shit like that.

We give a rat's ass less about the environment. We just want her to not be so sick.

Cullion
13th April 09, 11:36 AM
The thing about "free range" and "organic" meat is that in order to be able to put that on your products you just have to allow the animals to be out of their stables every once in a while and when they get sick, you let them die and can't pump them full of steroids.

Which is fine and dandy.

But is the reason it costs so much. They can afford to lose livestock and they can justify charging that much money for the meat. I also think it's attributed to your locations.

Living in the heart of the valley, my meat is fresh. The beef in the supermarket probably came from a farm that is within 20 miles of that market. I hardly taste any difference between the "organic" meat vs "normal" meat. Granted the nearest "organic" meat farm is a good 100ish miles away, I believe. I still can't take a real stand on organic meat.

Hmm, that's sort of my point.

The free-range cornfed chicken isn't necessarily 'organic' if the farmers use antibiotics etc..

I can tell the difference between 'factory farmed' and 'cornfed freerange',
but not between 'cornfed freerange' and 'fully organic'.

I find about the same distinction with other meats.

I should note that in the EU, even 'factory farms' are banned from using a lot of the steroids and other drugs that are used in the US.

HappyOldGuy
13th April 09, 11:42 AM
Plenty of silliness occurs under the label of organic, but don't get all smug with the hippy bashing quite yet. So far your best evidence presented is some petulant british royal is agin it.

That is not actually what we mean when we say peer review.

Especially Sirc needs to STFU and do some research on cancer clusters in his bucolic central valley.

Personally I don't care as much about most vegetables, but for animal products it is absolutely essential. The amount of antibiotics released into the environment by feedlot practices is unsustainable. And in the US, that means buying "organic" because none of theother labels is legally enforceable.

Artful Dentures
13th April 09, 11:55 AM
The thing about "free range" and "organic" meat is that in order to be able to put that on your products you just have to allow the animals to be out of their stables every once in a while and when they get sick, you let them die and can't pump them full of steroids.

Which is fine and dandy.

But is the reason it costs so much. They can afford to lose livestock and they can justify charging that much money for the meat. I also think it's attributed to your locations.

Living in the heart of the valley, my meat is fresh. The beef in the supermarket probably came from a farm that is within 20 miles of that market. I hardly taste any difference between the "organic" meat vs "normal" meat. Granted the nearest "organic" meat farm is a good 100ish miles away, I believe. I still can't take a real stand on organic meat.

To me it's not a matter of freshness in fact good meat is hung for a bit.

But the difference in taste between grain fed and grass fed beef is HUGE.

Also the growing time for force fed grain cattle is reduced and their pumped up with hormones.

As far as cost goes I notcied this when I bou my first $18 t-bone steaks

They we huge, and unlike the grocery store steaks when I BBQ'd them they didn't shrink

One steak fed 2 people so realy it breaks down to $9 per steak per person and was only $2-3 more than grocery store.

And again

I am lucky the organic butcher is literally right next to my kids Dojo. So it's easy to get

And don't even get me started on the Berkshire pork ribs.

Night and day.

EuropIan
13th April 09, 12:08 PM
Is this your opinion or is it based on an article you read.

Because I gots to say that the African family smiling at me from that photo above my favorite brand of "fair trade" coffee look happy.
You can't read Danish, can you?

But for the most part, yeah fair trade is a pretty cool idea. It is a shame that it is more about pr than actual 'fair trade'

Sirc
13th April 09, 03:26 PM
To me it's not a matter of freshness in fact good meat is hung for a bit.

But the difference in taste between grain fed and grass fed beef is HUGE.

Also the growing time for force fed grain cattle is reduced and their pumped up with hormones.

As far as cost goes I notcied this when I bou my first $18 t-bone steaks

They we huge, and unlike the grocery store steaks when I BBQ'd them they didn't shrink

One steak fed 2 people so realy it breaks down to $9 per steak per person and was only $2-3 more than grocery store.

And again

I am lucky the organic butcher is literally right next to my kids Dojo. So it's easy to get

And don't even get me started on the Berkshire pork ribs.

Night and day.

On the west coast, the idea of a butcher or deli is ludacris. I only know of one butcher and one delicatessen within 50 miles of myself that are a true butcher and deli.


Plenty of silliness occurs under the label of organic, but don't get all smug with the hippy bashing quite yet. So far your best evidence presented is some petulant british royal is agin it.

That is not actually what we mean when we say peer review.

Especially Sirc needs to STFU and do some research on cancer clusters in his bucolic central valley.

Personally I don't care as much about most vegetables, but for animal products it is absolutely essential. The amount of antibiotics released into the environment by feedlot practices is unsustainable. And in the US, that means buying "organic" because none of theother labels is legally enforceable.

I have no problem with "organic meat products" as they are labeled. As "organic meat" products that are labeled as such generally just mean that the animals are grass fed and let to roam free. I see farms like this when I take trips out and about California. But there are freerange cattle and stock that are within 30 miles of me that can't be labeled "organic" because even though they are free range and only brought in during the evenings, they are given antibiotics or occasionally fed grain when there is a drought running through the central valley. Which blows for those farmers.

My focus was more on vegetable products as they are more readily sold to the public than meats. It also kind of hints at the whole "feel good" policy, as most people who feel the need to "go green" have some odd correlation between eating vegetables, saying no to meat and saving the environment.

Sirc
13th April 09, 03:57 PM
Another point that "organic" folk like to parade around with is the whole pesticides thing. As far as I know, regular pesticide residue rarely ever gets to the levels of harmful. Even being hundreds of times exceeding the level of regulation, wouldn't make it harmful.

"Organic Pesticides" are just as harmful as "non-organic pesticides" just due to the sheer volume needed to do the same thing. The most common "organic pesticide" is a pesticidal soap. It's potassium salts and fat. It leaves "no residue" on vegetables, but it is fucking horrible for animals. It makes them irritated and moody. Enough of it will actually poison them, despite the claims of being "non-toxic" you do have to use a LOT of it to get the job done. The problem with it is that once it dries, it doesn't work anymore. So you can't use it in areas where the temperatures are higher than 85* for long periods of time (30-60 minutes). Where the hell are you going to find a real farm that isn't in areas where it's hot. The central valley in california, feeds 1/2 of America and temperatures during spring-fall rang from 85-110*. There's no way they could use that "organic pesticide" effectively, they would constantly have to respray the crops all day long on a 30 minute rotation just to use it.

I know there are a few different kinds of "organic pesticides" but they all suffer from the same kind of drawbacks, most of them leading back to that they require an absurd amount of maintenance and babysitting to work properly. But even then, a lot of "organic farms" still use normal pesticides.

http://www.openmarket.org/2009/03/30...safety-review/

Zendetta
13th April 09, 04:02 PM
Sweet Zombie Jesus is there a lot of idiocy in this thread. Only HOG seems to have an inkling.

Everybody other than HOG, read Pollan's the Omnivore's Dilemna before you say anything else.

Cullion
13th April 09, 04:32 PM
Plenty of silliness occurs under the label of organic, but don't get all smug with the hippy bashing quite yet. So far your best evidence presented is some petulant british royal is agin it.

In the same sample size, his own son is massively in favour of it. I have great affection for their ceremonial role, but, um, I'm not a 'tard. Just saying.



Personally I don't care as much about most vegetables, but for animal products it is absolutely essential. The amount of antibiotics released into the environment by feedlot practices is unsustainable. And in the US, that means buying "organic" because none of theother labels is legally enforceable.

I think this might be a difference between the EU and the US. I see 'organic' as much less important than 'free range and natural fed' for reasons of flavour and human health, but that's because even the factory farmers are forbidden from using some of the stuff you use in the US.

I've actually read semi-serious discussion amongst British physiologists saying that Americans aren't taller and more heavily built than Brits (on average) due to difference in the protein content of their diets or the ethnic composition of your country, because because of the steroid content of your diet.

HappyOldGuy
13th April 09, 05:33 PM
Nobody got my peer review joke <pout>.

Artful Dentures
13th April 09, 05:43 PM
Another point that "organic" folk like to parade around with is the whole pesticides thing. As far as I know, regular pesticide residue rarely ever gets to the levels of harmful. Even being hundreds of times exceeding the level of regulation, wouldn't make it harmful.

"Organic Pesticides" are just as harmful as "non-organic pesticides" just due to the sheer volume needed to do the same thing. The most common "organic pesticide" is a pesticidal soap. It's potassium salts and fat. It leaves "no residue" on vegetables, but it is fucking horrible for animals. It makes them irritated and moody. Enough of it will actually poison them, despite the claims of being "non-toxic" you do have to use a LOT of it to get the job done. The problem with it is that once it dries, it doesn't work anymore. So you can't use it in areas where the temperatures are higher than 85* for long periods of time (30-60 minutes). Where the hell are you going to find a real farm that isn't in areas where it's hot. The central valley in california, feeds 1/2 of America and temperatures during spring-fall rang from 85-110*. There's no way they could use that "organic pesticide" effectively, they would constantly have to respray the crops all day long on a 30 minute rotation just to use it.

I know there are a few different kinds of "organic pesticides" but they all suffer from the same kind of drawbacks, most of them leading back to that they require an absurd amount of maintenance and babysitting to work properly. But even then, a lot of "organic farms" still use normal pesticides.

http://www.openmarket.org/2009/03/30...safety-review/

I am not really knowledgeable enough to comment on pesticides.


To me the issue is taste and quality.

All I know is the framers market fruits and vegatables is so much more superior in taste from smaller local farms than the stuff I can get in a super market.

Pesticides and preservatives are the issue I think.

Then there's also fertilizer, nitrogen and methodology of irrigation and crop rotation.

Again I can't compare the two or comment on large scale industrial farming and smaller farming and their use of chemicals vs labour.

But again as far as quality goes.

Organic Butcher and Farmers market all summer long.

Cullion
13th April 09, 05:45 PM
Nobody got my peer review joke <pout>.

I sometimes, occasionally, make jokes that aren't funny, so it's bound to happen to you.

Artful Dentures
13th April 09, 05:57 PM
here's where I get my meat

http://www.thevillagebutcher.ca/about-us.php

Let explain how good it is. You can get a sub in there. I get the turkey sub

This is NOT subway turkey. This is freshly smoked turkey. It tastes like the best Thanks giving turgey on a fresh baguette with havarti chesse and a dijon and mayonnaise spread lettuce and tomato.

It is once again significantly better than sub way or any other sandwich.

And it's maybe only $2 more expensive than subway.

The problem with this place is it ruins things like subway for me.

I think as a society we genuinely don't knwo what good quality food is anymore.

Cullion
13th April 09, 06:17 PM
I gave Keinhaar a toned-down version of this lecture:-

Yeah, you do. North America has vast tracts of pristine and fertile land which were relatively recently settled by people who just wanted to have their own farm. You have a thriving counter-culture.

I think your artisan, whole-food and 'organic/free-range/natural fed' market is probably massive. It just doesn't get much TV time and accidental 'walk in' discovery is harder because your consumer commerce is more based on drive-in access to big chains than 'walk-in' as regulation has ensured in Europe.

The Internet will beat all of this soon, once you get a handle on to what a degree corrupt legislation has favoured the mass-production players.

Sirc
13th April 09, 06:27 PM
I am not really knowledgeable enough to comment on pesticides.


To me the issue is taste and quality.

All I know is the framers market fruits and vegatables is so much more superior in taste from smaller local farms than the stuff I can get in a super market.

Pesticides and preservatives are the issue I think.

Then there's also fertilizer, nitrogen and methodology of irrigation and crop rotation.

Again I can't compare the two or comment on large scale industrial farming and smaller farming and their use of chemicals vs labour.

But again as far as quality goes.

Organic Butcher and Farmers market all summer long.

I always support the Farmer's Market first and foremost. It put my family through life in my younger years and was my family's only source of income before my parents got their current jobs. :smile:


Sweet Zombie Jesus is there a lot of idiocy in this thread. Only HOG seems to have an inkling.

Everybody other than HOG, read Pollan's the Omnivore's Dilemna before you say anything else.

Shut the fuck up. You live in the heart of the problem. A bunch of dufus' who read a bunch of bullshit some guy who's never done any actual farming or have any idea what farming is like, and think they know what the fuck is going on.


In the same sample size, his own son is massively in favour of it. I have great affection for their ceremonial role, but, um, I'm not a 'tard. Just saying.



I think this might be a difference between the EU and the US. I see 'organic' as much less important than 'free range and natural fed' for reasons of flavour and human health, but that's because even the factory farmers are forbidden from using some of the stuff you use in the US.

I've actually read semi-serious discussion amongst British physiologists saying that Americans aren't taller and more heavily built than Brits (on average) due to difference in the protein content of their diets or the ethnic composition of your country, because because of the steroid content of your diet.

That's probably true. We got a lot of our produce and food when I was younger from the neighboring farmers. There is a lot of bartering with farmers who live near each other. To the north was a cattle farmer, to the west was a wheat farmer an to the east was a fruit farmer and we farmed vegetables. We all pretty much had everything covered. Compared to my cousins and friends who are also hmong, I am enormous, but most likely due to the steroids in the cattle I ate.

I also think the word "organic" is just a catch-all for dumbfucks who need to feel good about what they buy. Kind of like "wushu".

Zendetta
13th April 09, 08:42 PM
I always support the Farmer's Market first and foremost.

That's where this conversation should begin and end.


Shut the fuck up. You live in the heart of the problem. A bunch of dufus' who read a bunch of bullshit some guy who's never done any actual farming or have any idea what farming is like, and think they know what the fuck is going on.

Sigh. Don't let the location fool you. I'm from the pesticide-heavy, cotton farming south. And I've worked on an organic farm.

Now, you are certainly right that my area is full of Smug. No doubt.

Thing is, you have a vague inkling that "organic" is baloney. And you are right. The problem is that you are utterly, embarassingly ignorant of how it is baloney. Pollan's book lays it bare.

Also, get bent, you scrawny faggot.


I also think the word "organic" is just a catch-all for dumbfucks who need to feel good about what they buy. Kind of like "wushu".

There is a very, very smug "lifestyle" to it all. In fact, your sorry provincial ass doesn't know the half of it.

Sirc
13th April 09, 08:49 PM
Now, you are certainly right that my area is full of Smug. No doubt.

Thing is, you have a vague inkling that "organic" is baloney. And you are right. The problem is that you are utterly, embarassingly ignorant of how it is baloney. Pollan's book lays it bare.


that's what this thread is for, asshole. If you KNOW then say something. Dropping the fact that you read a book so some other asshole on here will jerk you off is just masturbatory. So knock it off and actually contribute. If I wanted to go and read a book, I'd go and read a fucking book. But no, this is a forum where we converse. Converse, dickcheese.



Also, get bent, you scrawny faggot.


If you weren't riding the tard sled down the left side of the bell curve, you'd know to watch your fucking whore mouth.



There is a very, very smug "lifestyle" to it all. In fact, your sorry provincial ass doesn't know the half of it.

See above.

WarPhalange
13th April 09, 08:54 PM
I am highly skeptical of much the environmental movement has to say.

I sometimes find 'organic' fruits and vegetables have a stronger flavour, but not massively.

Where I notice a big difference is in meat and fish. Livestock raised on its natural diet with freedom to move always tastes much better to me.

Don't get me started on that. The amount of hormones and anti-biotics we pump into our cows and pigs is just disgusting. I can't stand the food in the US. I need to buy ham at local deli's and shit because I can't stomach anything from a package.

Ajamil
13th April 09, 09:53 PM
As a veggie, I'd like to applaud all of you for your meat-eating choices. If more people would be conscientious of their food choices (hell, even down to what tastes better), I think it'd be much easier to upkeep a higher ethical standard for livestock - better food, better living arrangements, better care.

As for the all-around "organic" label, I think the people that are seriously into these things - at least for the vegetables - aren't talking about it so much as just going out and starting a garden. Maybe it was more of a Southwestern thing, but walking through my neighborhood had me pass at least two community gardens and around a dozen homes with food gardens.

Meat, understandably, is harder to do-it-yourself. Still, with such pioneering minds as those here, we've already seen many ways.

SFGOON
13th April 09, 09:55 PM
Sarcastro does not care about the environment.


If you weren't riding the tard sled down the left side of the bell curve, you'd know to watch your fucking whore mouth.

Sig-ed for brilliance.

Sun Wukong
13th April 09, 09:57 PM
having grown up, you know, on a farm (every summer since birth to college age), I can definitely agree that organic farming is bullshit.

Sun Wukong
13th April 09, 10:02 PM
in my experience organic produce sometimes tastes better, but I'm not shure how much of that is placebo effect.




Well, you are probably right on that count. Commercial farms often don't tend to crops as carefully as they could and quality control only accounts for removing rotten/tainted veggies.

Better irrigation, better soil, better growing conditions can be found on smaller commercial farms where the land is carefully managed to produce optimal crops.

you wouldn't want to make wine from the grapes we tried to grow, but you'd be hard pressed find a better tomato at the grocery store.

Sirc
13th April 09, 11:45 PM
Don't get me started on that. The amount of hormones and anti-biotics we pump into our cows and pigs is just disgusting. I can't stand the food in the US. I need to buy ham at local deli's and shit because I can't stomach anything from a package.

Support your local farmer's market. Are you still in Livermore? They have a huge farmer's market there.

Tyrsmann
14th April 09, 12:22 AM
I fucking love the farmer's market here in Polk Country. Also the free range bacon, ham, and pork I can get there is absolutely delicious. But the "organic corn" is rather atrocious compared to the stuff that most farmers sell around here during the summer.

jubei33
14th April 09, 10:01 AM
Another point that "organic" folk like to parade around with is the whole pesticides thing. As far as I know, regular pesticide residue rarely ever gets to the levels of harmful. Even being hundreds of times exceeding the level of regulation, wouldn't make it harmful.

"Organic Pesticides" are just as harmful as "non-organic pesticides" just due to the sheer volume needed to do the same thing. http://www.openmarket.org/2009/03/30...safety-review/

I'd appreciate you to quantify this: which pesticides? What levels? What kind of harm? Who says this? by what research? Your link is out of date/broken.

jvjim
14th April 09, 10:23 AM
I'd just like to be able to afford any sort of vegetables that weren't frozen/in a can. Christ, would some fucking zucchini or collards be awesome right now. So my point is, if you can afford fancy store bought organic, tear free veggies, go fuck yourself you bourgeois, limped dick, cock-nosed motherfucker.

EuropIan
14th April 09, 10:27 AM
Aren't you supposed to be swimming in ocra, Jim?

jvjim
14th April 09, 10:33 AM
I only eat ocra fried, so it doesn't count as a vegetable. FUCK, now I want ocra, thanks Ian. My great grandpappy was a kosher butcher for some reason (he wasn't Jewish, so I've never figured it out) and my grandmother would tell stories about how he'd hang cows up near their back porch and hack at them. That sounded awesome. But she'd also tell me that during the Depression they'd have to make one chicken last like a month between 8 people. My point is: thank you Jesus for cheap meat and fuck you atheist asshats for trying to screw with my super-immune systemed bovine food sources.

EuropIan
14th April 09, 10:39 AM
I only eat ocra fried
YES!

so it doesn't count as a vegetable.
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
(it should still be cheaper than dirt)

Also do you know how much I have to pay for ocra here?


My biggest grievance with some packaged industrialized meat is the "marinade au natural"
Which is basically pumping it full of water to inflate profits.

Yes water.

Zendetta
14th April 09, 12:05 PM
that's what this thread is for, asshole.

Really? From all appearances, this thread is for you to vent your annoyance at the annoying bitches who brag about how their yoga mats are made out of recycled free range tofu. I get it.

I'm tempted to tell you to stuff a tampon in it and shut the fuck up, but I actually think you prefer a "Heavy Flow" Thread.


If you KNOW then say something. Dropping the fact that you read a book so some other asshole on here will jerk you off is just masturbatory. So knock it off and actually contribute. If I wanted to go and read a book, I'd go and read a fucking book. But no, this is a forum where we converse.

Between training and snowboarding I was too pressed for time this weekend to play grab-ass with you on the internet (until now, and frankly I'm not all that inclined).


If you weren't riding the tard sled down the left side of the bell curve, you'd know to watch your fucking whore mouth.

Now, that is a beautiful burn, but the painful thing is that you are the masturbating retard in this scenario. For example, you ranted about how "pesticides maybe aren't that bad", but nowhere in this shortbus circle jerk of a thread that you've ejaculated onto the net is any mention of fertilizer.

So one thing you need to know about chemical based agriculture is that the reliance on chemical fertilizer leads to a cycle of soil depleted of nutrients. This means that the same acreage will demand more fertilizer next year to get the same ammount of produce. This creates a nasty cascade of environmental and financial effects.

Done right, organic farming can actually build healthier, more productive soil.

Another thing Pollan's book lays out is the wide-ranging effects of government subsidizing things like corn - and you really can't make sense of agriculture in America without understanding that dynamic. I believe you have some libertarian inklings, so this should be interesting to you on several levels.


Converse, dickcheese.

The health problems you face are probably more from the AIDS than all that non-organic dickcheese you've been consuming. At least wipe your mouth once in a while.


Now, if you want to seriously have a conversation around this, I'm game. But I can't take you seriously on this topic while you are talking shit.

HappyOldGuy
14th April 09, 12:15 PM
If you want an example of organic silliness, it's that the real destroyers aren't your lettuce and sprouts that you buy, they are the hyper industrialized commodity crops like soy, corn, and potatoes.

That can still be sold in "organic" processed foods as long as they hit the factory to be processed down to their constituent molecules first.

For me, I'm picky about animal products. For non animal products, my concerns are simple>local>organic.

Shawarma
14th April 09, 12:27 PM
Ian, I worked at a butchers for a while. He had a big vat to dump meat in too and a syringe to inject the meat with water to up the weight. Waterpumping is done on non-industrial meat too.

Sirc
14th April 09, 01:01 PM
Broke it agan?

Sirc
14th April 09, 01:01 PM
I broke sociocide.

Sirc
14th April 09, 01:03 PM
Oops. I broke sociocide.

Sirc
14th April 09, 01:06 PM
The same people who believe Organic farming "could work if...." are the same people who think "socialism could work if...."

Always getting fucked by that "if"

Zendetta
14th April 09, 01:20 PM
Dude, Organic Farming is working. If anything, its been a victim of its own success, which is why you are irritated by the trendiness of it all.

Its like you are judging MMA/Jujutsu based on your aversion to TapOut wearing douchebags.

Cullion
14th April 09, 01:28 PM
I worked as a fishmonger for a while when I was 20 before going back to college.

The fins have to be trimmed off farmed fish like salmon because deformities and even extra fins are relatively common.

EuropIan
14th April 09, 01:41 PM
The same people who believe Organic farming "could work if...." are the same people who think "socialism could work if...."

Always getting fucked by that "if"
"when"

Sirc
14th April 09, 01:43 PM
Dude, Organic Farming is working. If anything, its been a victim of its own success, which is why you are irritated by the trendiness of it all.

Its like you are judging MMA/Jujutsu based on your aversion to TapOut wearing douchebags.

Organic farming is like the Prius.

It makes you feel good on the outside, because of the package you received. But if you look at it, in the long run it makes even more of a carbon footprint and fucks up the environment more than a Hummer H2.

Zendetta
14th April 09, 01:57 PM
Even if you are trying to make a serious point, you are painting with too wide a brush.

We both know your Subaru is epic poetry etched into plastic and steel.

Your position in this thread is like saying Rice Burners Suck because of all the douchey popped collar asian dudes who put a foot-high spoiler on their beater Civic to make up for their phallic shortcomings.

In other words, you are trolling. Which is fine, but don't bullshit me about "having a conversation" if that's how you're gonna roll.

Sirc
14th April 09, 02:18 PM
Even if you are trying to make a serious point, you are painting with too wide a brush.

We both know your Subaru is epic poetry etched into plastic and steel.

Your position in this thread is like saying Rice Burners Suck because of all the douchey popped collar asian dudes who put a foot-high spoiler on their beater Civic to make up for their phallic shortcomings.

In other words, you are trolling. Which is fine, but don't bullshit me about "having a conversation" if that's how you're gonna roll.

That's my point though. A bunch of assholes running around thinking "THIS IS IT!" when it's not. People really really really really believe THIS IS GONNA WORK! THIS IS HOW IT SHOULD BE!

Some people go as far as to take a cock in the ass because their lifestyle requires it. Some people spend thousands and thousands of dollars on their car to make what they think is a "race car." Some people are willing to fuck the planet because they think that is how it's done.

I don't know why people think I love my Impreza THAT much. It's really not that impressive to me. It's gimmicky and novel and fun to drive, but it's not THAT great.

Zendetta
14th April 09, 03:01 PM
That's my point though.

And like I said, I get that. Living as I do in the Smug Capitol of the Solar System, I have to deal with more of that "my tampons/dog food/organic cotton thong underwear/etc has zero carbon footprint!" shite than you know.

You are right that the term "organic" can be pretty meaningless, functioning mainly as a lifestyle signifier. But the reality is that organic methods can make a big ecological and financial difference. The runoff from pesticides and the soil depleting effects of over-reliance on chemical fertilizer actually is a big deal.

Even more to the point, organic produce frequently taste much better than conventionally grown stuff. I'm a hedonist first, and environmentalist second.


I don't know why people think I love my Impreza THAT much. It's really not that impressive to me. It's gimmicky and novel and fun to drive, but it's not THAT great.

If you want to know, the reason I think they are the shit is because my main snowboarding compadre has one and we take it up to Tahoe regularly. I've seen that car perform miracles in inclement conditions that stymied everything else on the road.

Now, if you just want to bag on the PriusYogaTofu people who are the TapOut wearing douchebags of the sustainable scene, be my guest. If you want to understand what is up with American Agriculture, I humbly suggest you read The Omnivore's Dilemna.

Its a good read. The most interesting part to me is when the author spends some time on a very profitable, very sustainable beef and chicken farm, where the conservative christian libertarian owner is very, very conscious of the health of the grass and the soil, which he recognizes as the foundation of the ecosystem his farm rests upon and runs on.

In other words, there is more to this situation than "lol, yuppies".

Sirc
14th April 09, 03:34 PM
And like I said, I get that. Living as I do in the Smug Capitol of the Solar System, I have to deal with more of that "my tampons/dog food/organic cotton thong underwear/etc has zero carbon footprint!" shite than you know.

You are right that the term "organic" can be pretty meaningless, functioning mainly as a lifestyle signifier. But the reality is that organic methods can make a big ecological and financial difference. The runoff from pesticides and the soil depleting effects of over-reliance on chemical fertilizer actually is a big deal.

Even more to the point, organic produce frequently taste much better than conventionally grown stuff. I'm a hedonist first, and environmentalist second.


Have you ever farmed? Ever? Ever? Have you ever been on an organic farm?

My answer to both is yes. You know that large scale organic farms are more detrimental to the environment than large scale traditional farms, right?



If you want to know, the reason I think they are the shit is because my main snowboarding compadre has one and we take it up to Tahoe regularly. I've seen that car perform miracles in inclement conditions that stymied everything else on the road.

They CAN be. But must be set up that way. I love my impreza, but from an engineering standpoint, it's "alright." Except for the STi 6 speed which is an ungodly piece of engineering.



Now, if you just want to bag on the PriusYogaTofu people who are the TapOut wearing douchebags of the sustainable scene, be my guest. If you want to understand what is up with American Agriculture, I humbly suggest you read The Omnivore's Dilemna.

Its a good read. The most interesting part to me is when the author spends some time on a very profitable, very sustainable beef and chicken farm, where the conservative christian libertarian owner is very, very conscious of the health of the grass and the soil, which he recognizes as the foundation of the ecosystem his farm rests upon and runs on.

In other words, there is more to this situation than "lol, yuppies".

Ok.

HappyOldGuy
14th April 09, 03:41 PM
Have you ever farmed? Ever? Ever? Have you ever been on an organic farm?

My answer to both is yes. You know that large scale organic farms are more detrimental to the environment than large scale traditional farms, right?

He already answered that question.

and bullshit.

Dagon Akujin
14th April 09, 03:47 PM
Nobody has yet mentioned this yet:


MILK

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/138/335296892_d27441f4a9.jpg

Organic milk tastes a whole lot better and it lasts a month longer. A FUCKING MONTH LONGER. It lasts 3 times longer than the other milks in the super-market, and it tastes better in my coffee and cereal.


http://www.organicvalley.coop/img/products/ca_pastures_beauty.jpg

^^^^^^^^^This stuff is fucking awesome, so there has to be a little something to the organic milk "bullshit".

Sirc
14th April 09, 03:53 PM
He already answered that question.

and bullshit.

It's not. Organic farming was meant to be done on a small scale. potassium salts in the large quantities they use for pesticidal soap is NOT GOOD FOR THE EARTH. You are literally SALTING THE EARTH. Which has in the past shown to not be good.

Large scale organic farming is fucking terrible for the environment. They aren't regulated nearly as much as traditional farming because they're riding the "green" wave. Whatever drug you're taking that makes you think they're not gonna fucking stretch the limits of what they're allowed to do, please give me some. I would love to be able to believe that somehow they aren't assholes like traditional industrial farms.

The idea that just because they're organic farmers makes them "nicer" is bullshit. Like the great philsopher/writer Dr. Dre once said, "Get money, fuck bitches." They're in it for the game just as much as anybody else is.

HappyOldGuy
14th April 09, 03:53 PM
The length of time thing is because it is Ultra Pasteurized. Not organic.

HappyOldGuy
14th April 09, 03:54 PM
It's not. Organic farming was meant to be done on a small scale. potassium salts in the large quantities they use for pesticidal soap is NOT GOOD FOR THE EARTH. You are literally SALTING THE EARTH. Which has in the past shown to not be good.

Large scale organic farming is fucking terrible for the environment. They aren't regulated nearly as much as traditional farming because they're riding the "green" wave. Whatever drug you're taking that makes you think they're not gonna fucking stretch the limits of what they're allowed to do, please give me some. I would love to be able to believe that somehow they aren't assholes like traditional industrial farms.

The idea that just because they're organic farmers makes them "nicer" is bullshit. Like the great philsopher/writer Dr. Dre once said, "Get money, fuck bitches." They're in it for the game just as much as anybody else is.

Peer review comparisons or STFU. Saying that X is bad so that proves it's worse than Y is meaningless drivel.

Zendetta
14th April 09, 03:57 PM
Have you ever farmed? Ever? Ever? Have you ever been on an organic farm?

<facepalm>

You need to read my posts more carefully.

Several family members back east are involved in farming various things, including pigs, chickens, cotton, soybeans, as well as plenty of small-time gardening.

I personally have worked on two different organic farms in two different states. One used a CSA model, the other sold to distributers.


You know that large scale organic farms are more detrimental to the environment than large scale traditional farms, right?

You know that the term "organic" underwent a major, legal shift when corporate agribusiness got into the game... right? No, you didn't know that.

If you really believe that organic farming is more detrimental, feel free to build your case. So far you are doing the equivalent of a Wing Chun guy mocking MMA because of the tattoos and bad music.


I love my impreza, but from an engineering standpoint, it's "alright." Except for the STi 6 speed which is an ungodly piece of engineering.

For the money, my sense is that its outstanding. Is there anything else in that price range that offers comparable performance?

Edit:

Organic farming was meant to be done on a small scale.

This is true.


They aren't regulated nearly as much as traditional farming because they're riding the "green" wave.

But this is complete and utter hogwashed horseshit. Up to this point you've been trolling, and now that you are pinned down you are pulling bullshit out of your ass. Shut the fuck up, Sirc.

If you have strong feelings on this topic, get educated.

Sirc
14th April 09, 04:13 PM
Peer review comparisons or STFU. Saying that X is bad so that proves it's worse than Y is meaningless drivel.

There hasn't been any real research done. I don't have the laboratories or the resources to do it. All i have are the assholes near my grandparent's farm who are dickcheeses sending their caustic cancerous "natural pesticides" into the earth and making it uninhabitable.



<facepalm>

You need to read my posts more carefully.

Several family members back east are involved in farming various things, including pigs, chickens, cotton, soybeans, as well as plenty of small-time gardening.

I personally have worked on two different organic farms in two different states. One used a CSA model, the other sold to distributers.



You know that the term "organic" underwent a major, legal shift when corporate agribusiness got into the game... right? No, you didn't know that.

If you really believe that organic farming is more detrimental, feel free to build your case. So far you are doing the equivalent of a Wing Chun guy mocking MMA because of the tattoos and bad music.


Why do you feel that it's "OK" just because it's new? This was the same thought about pesticides in the past. I'm sure that with more and more regulations and actual scrutinizing of organic farming techniques, it'll be less harmful to everyone.



For the money, my sense is that its outstanding. Is there anything else in that price range that offers comparable performance?


Performance in what though? A 2004 Mustang Cobra will have the same straight line and tarmac performance stock for stock as a 2004 WRX. For about the same price.




Edit:


This is true.



But this is complete and utter hogwashed horseshit. Up to this point you've been trolling, and now that you are pinned down you are pulling bullshit out of your ass. Shut the fuck up, Sirc.

If you have strong feelings on this topic, get educated.

Pinned down? To what? Your mom? Only very recently have they become regulated. Before it was "Oh you don't use pesticides? Here have a sticker!"

For example, what about the "organic" farmers who sell their sick cows to "traditional" farmers at crackwhore prices, so they can inject them with antibiotics so they can buy them back? You can drive semi-trucks through the holes in the regulations for "organic farming." Traditional farmers are held down tighter than a chance encounter a thai schoolgirl has with your dad.

jubei33
14th April 09, 04:42 PM
dickcheeses sending their caustic cancerous "natural pesticides" into the earth and making it uninhabitable.
Where is your toxicology on this mysterious cancerous soap?
CITE YOUR FUCKING SOURCES OR GO WAX YOUR CAR

ditto for the points asked earlier

Sirc
14th April 09, 05:15 PM
Where is your toxicology on this mysterious cancerous soap?
CITE YOUR FUCKING SOURCES OR GO WAX YOUR CAR

ditto for the points asked earlier

I didn't mean cancerous literally. I meant cancerous in that the residual salts and potassium deposits that come from the crops being blasted by this shit is washing off to the surrounding farms and being cancerous to their productivity. Not cancerous as in tumors in your dick or something.

My bad.

Calm the fuck down.

Artful Dentures
14th April 09, 06:01 PM
This thread makes me hungry every time I read it

Once the weather stops being shitty here you're all invited to my place for a BBQ featuring organic free ranged grass fed meat

T-Bone steaks

Berkshire Pork Ribs

Grilled chicken

My patented Smashed potatoes

Super amazing Balsamic vinaigrette salad

And home made bumble berry and apple pie. Topped with high Fat (yes High Fat) ice cream

Shawarma
14th April 09, 07:00 PM
Even if you are trying to make a serious point, you are painting with too wide a brush.

We both know your Subaru is epic poetry etched into plastic and steel.

Your position in this thread is like saying Rice Burners Suck because of all the douchey popped collar asian dudes who put a foot-high spoiler on their beater Civic to make up for their phallic shortcomings.

In other words, you are trolling. Which is fine, but don't bullshit me about "having a conversation" if that's how you're gonna roll.
How dare you argue with SirC, he's so totally awesome and is an expert on everything and hence has an incredibly qualified opinion on every single topic of conversation known to man, especially this one. He's like Einstein, Mahatma Gandhi and Jesus all rolled into one tiny body.

Cullion
14th April 09, 07:12 PM
Actually Jesus, Einstein and Ghandi rolled into one would be a tiny brown guy with out of control hair and a bushy beard. Like one of those pencil-trolls.

Shawarma
14th April 09, 07:19 PM
Just because I can't sleep and am bored, I'll provide my uneducated opinion on this topic.

I don't buy organic personally. I believe a lot of it's a marketing scheme and that the beneficial effect it will have on my health is entirely negligible. I am also remarkably unconcerned about the wellbeing of animals raised for slaughter and personally can't tell the difference in taste between freerange and caged eggs and pork. I don't recognise your descriptions of snooty hippies thinking they're better than you for buying organic.

The people I know who buy organic do so for the sake of their health and haven't to my knowledge ever flaunted the fact that they do. You must live around some really petty people.

I DO disagree with people buying the product of a specific company because it somehow doesn't exploit 3rd world children as badly as its competitors. This is just because I find this kind of dogooderism misplaced and because I hate 3rd world children.

Zendetta
14th April 09, 07:45 PM
There hasn't been any real research done.

Too bad, because in the absence of actual facts regarding the subject, you are fertilizing this entire thread with the bullshit pouring out of your ass.


Why do you feel that it's "OK" just because it's new?

You are too smart to be that stupid, Sirc. Its chemical based agriculture that is new. "Organic" (minus the trendiness) has been the way people farmed since time immemorial.

The Green Revolution cranked productivity thru the roof, with an attendant surge in population. We are now starting to see just how unsustainable those gains were.


Only very recently have they become regulated.

California has certifying Organic Farming since 1973 and regulating it since 1979.

"Very recently" is very relative. How old are you again?


Let's stick to your strengths:


Performance in what though? A 2004 Mustang Cobra will have the same straight line and tarmac performance stock for stock as a 2004 WRX. For about the same price.

I thought "snow trip to Tahoe" would have been a clue to the context - sorry for not clarifying. Cornering, accelerating uphill, maintaining traction in shitty conditions, Rally shit.

Sirc
14th April 09, 07:56 PM
Oh.

Celica GT-4.

Zendetta
14th April 09, 08:04 PM
Rally shit


Celica GT-4.

Hmmmm. Good to know. Looks cool, but won't take a rack. You think it will turn in snow like the Impreza?

Sirc
14th April 09, 08:08 PM
Hmmmm. Good to know. Looks cool, but won't take a rack. You think it will turn in snow like the Impreza?

The impreza doesn't really "turn" in the snow so much as it pushes around and glides everywhere.

The Celica actually has front, center and rear limited slip differentials so it's actually better in the snow than the impreza. They should make racks for the Celica, I've seen them.

Zendetta
14th April 09, 08:11 PM
They make racks for Porsches, you just have to drill holes in the roof.

Sirc
14th April 09, 08:25 PM
True true.

Ok anyway, I'll give that there isn't really any real research and my major gripes are mostly yuppy related. However, there is real concern for actual harm caused to the environment by bitchass "organic farmers."

k?

Zendetta
14th April 09, 08:33 PM
I can dig that.

As corporate agribusiness has gotten into the bigbucks organic game, there have been problems. One of the bigger scandals was pushing thru legislation that allowed the use of human feces as fertilizer - which some heretics cite as a reason that e. coli is showing up in vegetables. Pretty icky.

And I fully understand the Yuppy Hate.

Local/Seasonal > "organic"
Local Farmer's Market > Whole Foods
Subaru Uber Alles.

You've probably seen this:
Av0VsTxJd78

HappyOldGuy
14th April 09, 09:04 PM
Yuppies drool.

ouppies rule.

socratic
14th April 09, 10:19 PM
I'm a bit late to the party buuuuuuut...

Where I come from, 'organic' means 'not totally shit'. Hit up the farmers market which is mostly comprised of organic products anyways and you'll get delicious, not-particularly-expensive, organic, ubernutritional food. There's just no fuckin' reason to buy anything else if you can afford to comfortably do otherwise. That's like saying "I prefer to drink low-fat milk" when really you're so thin and exercise so much the extra fat is gonna be good for you. Organic = better product. End of story.

Now, back to cars...

EuropIan
15th April 09, 04:35 AM
True true.

Ok anyway, I'll give that there isn't really any real research and my major gripes are mostly yuppy related. However, there is real concern for actual harm caused to the environment by bitchass "organic farmers."

k?

http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/258/5080/261

And look, hey, it even somewhat supports your position.

Lazy fuck.



This report compares some of the the pros/cons of both

http://ecommons.library.cornell.edu/bitstream/1813/2101/1/pimentel_report_05-1.pdf

Yeah, you're lazy.
The report doesn't favor either..except that attrazine sucks cuz it makes frogs go gay.

Sirc
15th April 09, 06:46 AM
Nothing totally conclusive. I hate scientists who are too much of a pussy bitch to actually state an opinion.

EuropIan
15th April 09, 07:07 AM
I hate scientists who are too much of a pussy bitch to actually state an opinion.


You could have use the first paper to question the relavence of organic pesticides since they're both equally carciogenic.


The second one just outlines the differences and similarities between the diferent methods under different criteria (economics, soil health, productivity, ampunt of work needed for it to be successfull) you could have accentuated some criteria over others and made your point.

But no, you're too lazy..

So since you're too lazy and just wanted to rant against elitist douchebags who enjoy the smell of their own farts too much by being a elitist douchebag who enjoys the smell of his own farts too much, you pretty much ended up convincing no one.

Congratulations.

HappyOldGuy
15th April 09, 11:13 AM
This report compares some of the the pros/cons of both

http://ecommons.library.cornell.edu/bitstream/1813/2101/1/pimentel_report_05-1.pdf

Yeah, you're lazy.
The report doesn't favor either..except that attrazine sucks cuz it makes frogs go gay.

Dude, did you read that whole thing? Sirc hasn't been raped that hard since his first sadie hawkins dance. Both organic methods produced similar yields to the conventional, left the soils ridiculously richer, used less petroleum, and produced less toxins.

The article argues for a middle ground of adopting organic techniques into conventional production, but in the real world practices comparisons, conventional farming got smoked.

EuropIan
15th April 09, 11:25 AM
Dude, did you read that whole thing? Sirc hasn't been raped that hard since his first sadie hawkins dance. Both organic methods produced similar yields to the conventional, left the soils ridiculously richer, used less petroleum, and produced less toxins.

The article argues for a middle ground of adopting organic techniques into conventional production, but in the real world practices comparisons, conventional farming got smoked.
the one thing conventional farming had over organic farming was more profitable and less suseptable to dry seasons/drought/other bad sudden changes.

These criteria could be considered important.

My main point is that Sirc didn't want to spend 15 minutes googling to make an argument because he was too busy foaming at the mouth.

Sirc
15th April 09, 12:43 PM
Dude, did you read that whole thing? Sirc hasn't been raped that hard since his first sadie hawkins dance. Both organic methods produced similar yields to the conventional, left the soils ridiculously richer, used less petroleum, and produced less toxins.

The article argues for a middle ground of adopting organic techniques into conventional production, but in the real world practices comparisons, conventional farming got smoked.

Oh ok. Yes, this shows that EVERY organic farm knows exactly what they're doing. Right.

Zendetta
15th April 09, 12:50 PM
Be nice to Sirc, he just OD'd on pretentious Yuppies. It could happen to anyone, anytime.

(but much more likely in California)

EuropIan
15th April 09, 12:55 PM
Then he should have stuck to the prius and how it is a piece of shit because of the people who use them.