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View Full Version : To the anti-isreal crowd: Come on, admit some great things isreal has.



AAAhmed46
12th April 09, 12:02 AM
I tend to be more pro-palistine as you guys have noticed form my posts,but i can't deny some things that the pro-palistinian crew tends not to talk about.


Fact is, internally, isreal is a pretty decent country. Good government, based on jewish law, the structure is something thier neighbors should emulate,and palistinian isreali's with the right to vote.

The threat of them out breeding jews s fading as long as their standard of living improves, the more affuluent arabs are having less kids. Now if their kept poor, well then yes, they may keep having many kids.

Now, i hope they don't take away their right to vote in the future, considering the chances of a two state solution are pretty much never going to happen. But if the Isreali palistinians maintain their rights, certainly one can only respect such eqaulity. I seriously hope isrealis keep it's voting racially and religiously selective

Thats not to say i agree with the actions of the IDF, and the isreali government really really irks me often, but i must freely admit that internally they really arn't that horrible.

Aphid Jones
12th April 09, 12:07 AM
By anti-is real crowd, do you mean the wapanese?

AAAhmed46
12th April 09, 12:09 AM
By anti-is real crowd, do you mean the wapanese?

YEah i should change the title. I mean guys who totally say isreal is an apartied state. The wall certainly is shitty, but if it was an apartied state, they arab isrealis would be more screwed.

AAAhmed46
12th April 09, 12:10 AM
Fixed the title. More accuarate.

Aphid Jones
12th April 09, 12:12 AM
Israel DOES have some rather unappealing genetic discrimination in its marriage law.

AAAhmed46
12th April 09, 12:19 AM
Really?

Robot Jesus
12th April 09, 12:25 AM
in the words of an isreli tank commander i used to work with "all we are doing is createing more ememies"



that is all

AAAhmed46
12th April 09, 12:27 AM
Of all the reading im doing...how the hell did i miss this?

WarPhalange
12th April 09, 12:29 AM
My friend is marrying a Jewish guy. They want to move to Israel (she's been learning Hebrew and stuff). But she can't become a citizen because she isn't Jewish. If something like that happened in the US or Europe, heads would roll.

But, my main beef with Israel is that you can't criticize Israel. Of course, as usual, it's a minority of fanatics that we can thank for that, but as soon as you say something bad about Israel, you get accused of being anti-Semitic. If I say "Liberia sucks", Al Sharpton isn't fucking me in the ass while calling me a racist.

Look, remember a few weeks/months ago when Israel was bombing UN aid trucks "on accident"? It got some flack from the media, but it seemed like people were just too uncomfortable to talk about it. I mean Jesus (lol), they have Muslims in their government, so shut the hell up about racism. It's clear that I don't like the country, not the people. It's very reasonable to not like an idea but like people following the idea, or vice versa. The two aren't fused together.

Steve
12th April 09, 12:49 AM
I didn't realize that there were anti-Israel or anti-Palestine crowds on this board. :/

HappyOldGuy
12th April 09, 01:08 AM
Israel is the best place for an arab to live in the middle east.

But it's still much less good than being a jew and living there.

theotherserge
12th April 09, 01:38 AM
I didn't realize that there were anti-Israel or anti-Palestine crowds on this board. :/
A 4,000 year old rock/dirt-clod fight. *sigh*

mrm1775
12th April 09, 04:26 AM
I've always considered that conflict to be one in which there really isn't a clear good guy. Israel has a right to preserve its existence, and the Palestinians have legitimate grievances. Both sides are guilty of exacerbating the conflict by being far too reactionary in their dealings with one another. The heart of the problem is an unwillingness to compromise and a mutual lack of good old human empathy.

It also bothers me that any criticism of Israel renders one vulnerable to attack from both the left and right. No lobbying group should have that much power.

Cullion
12th April 09, 04:26 AM
Israel used to give arabs who accepted it's right to exist and became citizens the right to vote, but I think that's changing because the country now seems to be under the control of right-wing nutbars of exactly the kind Einstein warned about.

Truculent Sheep
12th April 09, 05:46 AM
Israel used to give arabs who accepted it's right to exist and became citizens the right to vote, but I think that's changing because the country now seems to be under the control of right-wing nutbars of exactly the kind Einstein warned about.

Are you referring to that horrible shit Avigdor Lieberman and his nutters? I doubt they'll get too much sway, but there is a need for Israeli Arabs and their supporters to fight for rights they are entitled to under that nation's constitution. Of course, the fact is they at least have such theoretical rights unlike Arabs in Gaza or the West Bank, for example. It cuts both ways, more complex than you think, etc. etc. etc.

Cullion
12th April 09, 05:58 AM
Lieberman is pretty extreme, but even more mainstream people like Sharon and Netanyahu bother me.

The long-term tension seems to be that in order for Israel to be run just like any other western democracy, with simillarly unbiased immigration laws, the likelihood is that the country would quickly be majority muslim, and no longer be a 'Jewish homeland'.

But without doing this Israel is always going to be open to accusations of being the middle eastern South Africa.

My concern is that Likud, and some people to the right of it, would like to solve this problem with ethnic cleansing.

Truculent Sheep
12th April 09, 08:18 AM
Lieberman is pretty extreme, but even more mainstream people like Sharon and Netanyahu bother me.

But remember it is often centre-right governments that make the most overtures for peace.


But without doing this Israel is always going to be open to accusations of being the middle eastern South Africa.

Which would be an unjust accusation, or at least an over-simplistic one. Israel's main problem as one Israeli writer put it is that it has no interest in the PR game nor much skill in it, unlike the Palestinians. That and the fact that they have a Millwall FC 'No one likes us/We don't care' mentality gives the latent anti-semites and soft racists plenty of ammo.


[My concern is that Likud, and some people to the right of it, would like to solve this problem with ethnic cleansing.

Likud won't - they're self-interested cynics but not out-and-out bastards. They are playing with fire in forming a coalition with some really horrible people though, but I doubt there will be ethnic cleansing. What's needed in Israel right now is for the Arabs and the Ethiopian jews to start standing up for their rights - they have plenty of natural allies in their country, so it would be a good start.

Artful Dentures
12th April 09, 09:09 AM
I just watched Zohan,

Best commentary ever.

Palestinian terrorist as he is knocked off a balcony by Zohan.

"The issues aren't so black and white!!"

Artful Dentures
12th April 09, 09:16 AM
I also hate the use of the word Apartied to describe Israel.

Not because it's negative or doesn't have some relevance but because it has enough differences from the South African situation that it's a mis-label and causes people to focus on the wrong things.

My issue has always been that the idea of Zionism is antithetical to the ideas of a modern western state.

Trying to merge these two ideas is what causes most of the problems.

Shawarma
12th April 09, 10:27 AM
My friend is marrying a Jewish guy. They want to move to Israel (she's been learning Hebrew and stuff). But she can't become a citizen because she isn't Jewish. If something like that happened in the US or Europe, heads would roll.

But, my main beef with Israel is that you can't criticize Israel. Of course, as usual, it's a minority of fanatics that we can thank for that, but as soon as you say something bad about Israel, you get accused of being anti-Semitic. If I say "Liberia sucks", Al Sharpton isn't fucking me in the ass while calling me a racist.

Look, remember a few weeks/months ago when Israel was bombing UN aid trucks "on accident"? It got some flack from the media, but it seemed like people were just too uncomfortable to talk about it. I mean Jesus (lol), they have Muslims in their government, so shut the hell up about racism. It's clear that I don't like the country, not the people. It's very reasonable to not like an idea but like people following the idea, or vice versa. The two aren't fused together.
Agree with all of this. Also, a real faggot assumption is that just because you criticise the Israelis or Pals, you're automatically on the side of their opponents. The Israelis are unapologetic about dropping white phos and cluster bombs on civilian areas and the Palestinean don't care who they hurt with their mortar attacks and occasional suicide bombings. Why the FUCK should I support the cause of either of these disgusting people?

Cullion
12th April 09, 10:41 AM
As far as I can see it, Israel when founded was trying to be like a western liberal state in the sense that English speaking and other 'western' countries were in the 1940s.

Israel's laws on nationality and immigration simply haven't changed in the way that ours have, because there is a real and serious potential for the country to rapidly cease to be a 'Jewish homeland' if that were allowed.

Most of Europe, until perhaps very recently, didn't have to worry about such an outcome by having relatively liberal immigration and nationalisation laws.

I don't think Zionism has to be antithetical to the idea of a modern western state. People like Einstein had pretty clear ideas on it, and gave very firm warnings about what Israel could become if people too aggressive and hardline in their outlook came to power.

I don't usually think of it in terms of picking sides because I don't have any jewish or arab ancestry that I know of, but as long as Israel remains a democracy and non-Jews are allowed to vote and hold public office, I still think of it as a country that we should be prepared to help out if it got into military trouble.

I reserve the right to call 'foul' when an Israeli govt. uses it's military to do inhumane things, as seems to have happened recently in Gaza, and I've met and listened to speaches by jewish people who agree with me.

Artful Dentures
12th April 09, 11:19 AM
As far as I can see it, Israel when founded was trying to be like a western liberal state in the sense that English speaking and other 'western' countries were in the 1940s.

Israel's laws on nationality and immigration simply haven't changed in the way that ours have, because there is a real and serious potential for the country to rapidly cease to be a 'Jewish homeland' if that were allowed.

Most of Europe, until perhaps very recently, didn't have to worry about such an outcome by having relatively liberal immigration and nationalisation laws.

I don't think Zionism has to be antithetical to the idea of a modern western state. People like Einstein had pretty clear ideas on it, and gave very firm warnings about what Israel could become if people too aggressive and hardline in their outlook came to power.

I don't usually think of it in terms of picking sides because I don't have any jewish or arab ancestry that I know of, but as long as Israel remains a democracy and non-Jews are allowed to vote and hold public office, I still think of it as a country that we should be prepared to help out if it got into military trouble.

I reserve the right to call 'foul' when an Israeli govt. uses it's military to do inhumane things, as seems to have happened recently in Gaza, and I've met and listened to speaches by jewish people who agree with me.


let me put it to you this way.

Is there a chance that an Israeli Muslim Arab will ever be Prime Minister of Israel?

realistically no, not at all.

America works as a Modern western democracy in every sense because even though its far fetched at this time. It is with in the realm of possibility that an American Muslim can be become president.

If parts of your citizens feel that certain levels of access are cut off from them then there is something wrong.


Defining Israel as a Jewish homeland and as a Jewish state cause this issue.

I am not sure on how to fix it but it definitely is a root issue.

Cullion
12th April 09, 11:52 AM
America is only one Western democracy. It has (or at least had in its founding) relatively rigorous seperation of religion and state, and no hereditary ruling class (unless you count 'white people' in general during the slavery era and in the conquest of native american land).

But think of the European monarchies that have widespread voting suffrage and no laws against people of any race holding high political office.

Will a muslim arab ever be King in Denmark, Sweden or the UK? (although our current royal family do have a small amount of islamic moorish ancestry from the the nobility of Seville, IIRC)

No, but they could be prime minister, or an army General. Do they receive exactly the same legal protections and benefits from public services as 'indigenous' Danes, Brits etc..? Yes they do.

(I'm aware that loyal non-Jews can rise pretty high in Israel too. I know that there are some pretty high ranking Druze military officers for example, and it's simply because Druze have proven themselves loyal Israeli citizens).

Is the UK still to a large extent identifiably an 'ethnic homeland' ? I think so, much as some self-hating brits on the left would for some reason like to end that or racial fascists in the BNP would like to claim that we're facing the Gates of Vienna all over again.

The difference for Israel is that it would be extremely hard for it to make it's laws as liberal as ours have become without the majority of it's population becoming non-jewish very quickly.

If I were to face a situation where there was a serious risk within a few years of England becoming majority muslim and parliament coming under control of something like Hesbollah, I'd be voting for somebody offering a peaceble plan for nipping it in the bud.

So I don't think Israelis necessarily need to apologise for everything that favours Jews in their laws. I just think that there have been occasions, usually when a very hardline right-wing govt. has been in power in Israel, when the IDF has been ordered to do stuff to civilians that's a bit 'beyond the pale'.

I've read reports of loyal and highly trained IDF service people who feel the same way.

MrBadGuy
12th April 09, 07:06 PM
I thought this thread would have hawt pictures of israel chicks.

Now I'm disappointed and my penis is cold.

Cullion
12th April 09, 07:31 PM
http://janghuman.files.wordpress.com/2007/12/golda_meir.jpg

Is that better?

mrm1775
12th April 09, 08:16 PM
I thought this thread would have hawt pictures of israel chicks.

Now I'm disappointed and my penis is cold.
If you insist:
http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/3377/13852137881192da47fb.jpg
http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/3998/1385215420b77052e711o.jpg
http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/6008/244portmannatalie091906.jpg
http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/7712/b05.jpg

EuropIan
12th April 09, 08:28 PM
http://www.fmft.net/Israeli%20girls%20M16%20M4%20Carbine.JPG

MrBadGuy
12th April 09, 09:15 PM
We're getting there, gentlemen. We're getting there.

Dark Helmet
12th April 09, 10:55 PM
http://janghuman.files.wordpress.com/2007/12/golda_meir.jpg

Is that better?
My cock just shriveled-up and fell off my body like a dry branch from a potted plant. It's sitting there. I know look like a ken doll.

WarPhalange
12th April 09, 11:04 PM
let me put it to you this way.

Is there a chance that an Israeli Muslim Arab will ever be Prime Minister of Israel?


There are Muslims in the Israeli government. It will only take time before a Muslim Arab will be PM. Last year a woman and a black man were neck and neck to becoming POTUS (let's get real for a second, McCain never stood a chance). When women and blacks first started taking positions in government, would anybody have said "A woman/black person will be President some day."? No. It was just as unthinkable.

But it happened. It wasn't easy, but essentially people became more and more comfortable working with women and non-whites. After a while, it wasn't shocking to have a co-worker that was female or black. And even later, it was normal to have one as a boss. Same thing will happen in Israel eventually, if everything were to stay "the same", as in, no revolution or real wars going on. If conflict between Israel and its neighbors flares up again, the people will again look at Muslims suspiciously. But if things die down or stay at this kind of "cold war" we have going on (still conflict and casualties, but no REAL war), people will be more and more comfortable with/around Muslims. Sure, there will be die hards who will want to keep the country pure and junk, but like in the US, they will be in time largely ignored. The People (TM) never want conflict. It's usually the rulers or some other minority in power that forces it on everyone else. You won't see war spiral out of control like in Total Annihilation. WW2 wasn't even close to that. How many people wanted war? It was the rulers that thrusted it upon everyone.

So, given time, the people will finally just let it go. You'll get Israeli hippies and they will keep influencing further generations, because hey, it's a lot more fun to be a happy, peace loving hippy than it is to walk around angry at the world all the time.

Virus
13th April 09, 05:21 AM
My cock just shriveled-up and fell off my body like a dry branch from a potted plant. It's sitting there. I know look like a ken doll.

You'll be married to something like that one day.

HappyOldGuy
13th April 09, 10:37 AM
You'll be married to something like that one day.

Your cock will also shrivel up like a dry branch one day.


The cause and effect is a little fuzzy tho.

AAAhmed46
14th April 09, 09:47 PM
What bothers me is no one gives the whole details of every argument. such as january, it was reported as if hamas just randomly lobbed misstles, without any reason.

Or that isreal is an apartied state affording no rights to arabs within.

Zendetta
14th April 09, 10:46 PM
beyond the pale

racist!!!

socratic
14th April 09, 10:47 PM
I have no problem with Israel in itself; more with the inability of anyone to be vaguely objective about the issues.

1. Yeah, the Israelis stole people's homes. They're still doing it.
2. Yeah, Israel's military just loves to shit all over civilians with high-tech weapons. "Don't worry, if you all hide the women and children in this house, you'll be safe.... Hey, Zohan! BOMB THE SHIT OUT OF THAT HOUSE!!!"
3. Yeah, Hamas are a bunch of dicks who just love to try to kill innocents.
4. Yeah, the Palestinians voted in a terrorist organisation [notably a terrorist organisation that is seen to 'take no shit' and who runs schools and hospitals)
5. Israel is run by a bloodthirsty rightist government at odds with an increasing number of its people. Not cool.
6. Palestine is run by terrorists who seem damn keen about getting their nation wiped off the map. Also not cool.

WarPhalange
15th April 09, 01:03 AM
Yeah, I'll agree with that. But there's a bit more to it. Israel pissed off a lot of people already living there when it was formed. Those people had to be displaced. Clearly, there will be animosity towards the people that come in to live in New Israel.

Those people, though, just want a home of their own. They don't see it as kicking someone out, but that someone was already kicked out, and they need a place to live, so they might as well.

So the moral of the story is that Israel never started this shit, nor did the surrounding countries. It was the people who decided to form New Israel after WW2. During WW2, Muslims helped Jews hide from the Nazis. This hatred business is a distraction. Why does anybody really give a fuck about a rock? Iran and Co. have nothing to gain by obliterating Israel. It's just a way to get people to stop thinking about how shitty their country and leaders are.

If I were Riddeck, I'd start with conspiracy bullshit about causing conflict intentionally by creating Israel, so that later on when violence breaks out, you can do "peace keeping" missions and since countries will be damaged and need money quick, prices of oil would go down. Or something. Hey, the CIA tried to have a puppet leader in Iran for a reason, right?

socratic
15th April 09, 03:24 AM
Yeah, I'll agree with that. But there's a bit more to it. Israel pissed off a lot of people already living there when it was formed. Those people had to be displaced. Clearly, there will be animosity towards the people that come in to live in New Israel.

Those people, though, just want a home of their own. They don't see it as kicking someone out, but that someone was already kicked out, and they need a place to live, so they might as well.

So the moral of the story is that Israel never started this shit, nor did the surrounding countries. It was the people who decided to form New Israel after WW2. During WW2, Muslims helped Jews hide from the Nazis. This hatred business is a distraction. Why does anybody really give a fuck about a rock? Iran and Co. have nothing to gain by obliterating Israel. It's just a way to get people to stop thinking about how shitty their country and leaders are.

If I were Riddeck, I'd start with conspiracy bullshit about causing conflict intentionally by creating Israel, so that later on when violence breaks out, you can do "peace keeping" missions and since countries will be damaged and need money quick, prices of oil would go down. Or something. Hey, the CIA tried to have a puppet leader in Iran for a reason, right?

Israel was formed under political pressure from Zionist terrorist groups. Basically they bullied (bombed) the British into handing over the British Mandate of Palestine, and that's when the mass migration occurred and the displacement of the locals by force. That said, every time the Israeli army goes on a military campaign they demolish/blow up the pesky civilian homes in the area and declare it Israeli territory. Hasn't there been an active displacement of Palestinians pretty much ever since the country was formed?

I remember speaking to a girl I went to highschool with, whose family was hired as part of the embassy for Jordan. They get a pretty heavy influx of Palestinians apparently, and some are from recent displacements, according to her.

As for the CIA puppet leader- that [I]was to maintain US economic interests in the region, wasn't it? Too bad his ass got overthrown. I'm not entirely certain what the relationship between the US and Jordan or any of the other 'not a raging shithole' ME countries is, though.

Virus
15th April 09, 07:30 AM
I don't know about Israel, but Judaism is a little less stupid than Christianity and Islam (only slightly) for the following reasons:

They don't believe god tortures the dead.

They don't believe god has kids and kills them in order to convince himself to forgive people.

They don't want to convert the rest the world to Judaism.

HappyOldGuy
15th April 09, 10:54 AM
Israel was formed under political pressure from Zionist terrorist groups. Basically they bullied (bombed) the British into handing over the British Mandate of Palestine, and that's when the mass migration occurred and the displacement of the locals by force. That said, every time the Israeli army goes on a military campaign they demolish/blow up the pesky civilian homes in the area and declare it Israeli territory. Hasn't there been an active displacement of Palestinians pretty much ever since the country was formed?

I remember speaking to a girl I went to highschool with, whose family was hired as part of the embassy for Jordan. They get a pretty heavy influx of Palestinians apparently, and some are from recent displacements, according to her.

As for the CIA puppet leader- that [I]was to maintain US economic interests in the region, wasn't it? Too bad his ass got overthrown. I'm not entirely certain what the relationship between the US and Jordan or any of the other 'not a raging shithole' ME countries is, though.

Utilitarian ethics suggest that you shoot your teachers, then yourself.

AAAhmed46
19th April 09, 07:24 PM
I don't know about Israel, but Judaism is a little less stupid than Christianity and Islam (only slightly) for the following reasons:

They don't believe god tortures the dead.

They don't believe god has kids and kills them in order to convince himself to forgive people.

They don't want to convert the rest the world to Judaism.


There was a time that jews were active in evangelical work, i doubt as active as christians of today, but there was some evangelical work done.

Of coarse today it really isn't something thats common to judaism.

Cullion
19th April 09, 07:30 PM
Virus, have you ever read the Talmud?

Virus
20th April 09, 07:52 AM
Virus, have you ever read the Talmud?

Nah. I'm waiting for the movie to come out.

Ajamil
20th April 09, 11:14 AM
They made a mini-series version of the Mahabharata. It used to stop the country of India when it came on. You should check it out and ignore the early Bollywood effects.

Kein Haar
20th April 09, 12:01 PM
I think Israel tried to import MJS to make electronic gadgets.