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Shawarma
1st April 09, 07:36 AM
From: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/afghanistan/5080797/Hamid-Karzai-signs-law-legalising-rape-in-marriage.html

Hamid Karzai signs law 'legalising rape in marriage'

President Hamid Karzai has signed a law the UN says legalises rape in marriage and prevents women from leaving the house without permission.

By Ben Farmer in Kabul

The law, which has not been publicly released, is believed to state women can only seek work, education or doctor's appointments with their husband's permission.

Only fathers and grandfathers are granted custody of children under the law, according to the United Nations Development Fund for Women.

Mr Karzai has been accused of electioneering at the expense of women's rights by signing the law to appeal to crucial Shia swing voters in this year's presidential poll.

While the Afghan constitution guarantees equal rights for women, it also allows the Shia community, thought to represent 10 per cent of the population, the right to settle family law cases according to Shia law.

The Shiite Personal Status Law contains provisions on marriage, divorce, inheritance, rights of movement and bankruptcy.

The bill passed both houses of the Afghan parliament, but was so contentious that the United Nations and women's rights campaigners have so far been unable to see a copy of the approved bill.

Shinkai Zahine Karokhail, a female MP, said the law had been rushed through with little debate.

She told the Guardian newspaper: "They wanted to pass it almost like a secret negotiation, "There were lots of things that we wanted to change, but they didn't want to discuss it because Karzai wants to please the Shia before the election."

The Afghan justice ministry confirmed the law had been signed, but said it would not be published until technical difficulties had been overcome.

A spokesman for President Hamid Karzai would not comment.



Holy fuck, this is bad. So why did we have to go in and liberate Afghanistan again if caveman laws are what the people actually seem to WANT?

EuropIan
1st April 09, 07:47 AM
You see, rape only happens in the decadent west because it's an actual CRIME in the west.


This is totally fucktarded btw.

Virus
1st April 09, 08:47 AM
Islam is a horrible affliction on the world, and the ones that suffer most are Muslim women.

nMvahriNMDQ

Kein Haar
1st April 09, 09:22 AM
Some moozlum chick just called us the other day. It was one of the better one-sided ass-whoopings I've seen in a couple years. A shiner, big ol' red finger impressions on her cheeck, bruised arms...

Apparently, by muslim law he considered them divorced...so he wanted her outta the house (physically, literally, like right now...leave) with their two small kids.
This was so he could move his girflriend in.

She was an imported wife with no job or friends and two little girls in tow. How nice.

He also threatened her and THEIR kids with "burning"...(not sure if he meant fire or acid).

It was awesome.

EuropIan
1st April 09, 09:27 AM
Did you show him the features of the backseat of your car?

Kein Haar
1st April 09, 09:28 AM
No, he left before we got there.

EuropIan
1st April 09, 09:29 AM
Well I guess he was a complete coward then.

Kein Haar
1st April 09, 09:31 AM
Might I add, most spousal abuse is either kind of mutual, or at the very least very emotional and impulse driven....and alcohol doesn't help either.

This was a guy with a plan. We took all his threats with the utmost seriousness.

mrblackmagic
1st April 09, 09:34 AM
Sufism isn't that bad, neither is Nation of Islam, or 5 percenters. Oh wait, those are the heretical groups.

Seriously, why does everyone here give a shit what those weird motherfuckers do literally on the other side of the world?

Kein Haar
1st April 09, 09:35 AM
Because said motherfuckers sometimes move over here with their same assumptions about appropriate behavior.

mrblackmagic
1st April 09, 09:39 AM
And then you get to vent your disagreements. It's still a win-win situation.

Kein Haar
1st April 09, 09:50 AM
Well...true.

But...

Virus
1st April 09, 11:12 AM
Seriously, why does everyone here give a shit what those weird motherfuckers do literally on the other side of the world?

Human rights.

boondock lee
1st April 09, 11:57 AM
Has anyone seen the actual article with Hamid Karzai's picture?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/multimedia/archive/01375/HamidKarzai_1375402c.jpg

Notice the strong douche look that Karzai has on his face. It screams " Yeah wife rape is legal. Hear it, accept it and love it bitches".

I mean fuck, from that pic, you can tell he is not fucking around with wife rape bullshit.

Fearless Ukemi
1st April 09, 12:26 PM
Some moozlum chick just called us the other day. It was one of the better one-sided ass-whoopings I've seen in a couple years. A shiner, big ol' red finger impressions on her cheeck, bruised arms...

Apparently, by muslim law he considered them divorced...so he wanted her outta the house (physically, literally, like right now...leave) with their two small kids.
This was so he could move his girflriend in.

She was an imported wife with no job or friends and two little girls in tow. How nice.

He also threatened her and THEIR kids with "burning"...(not sure if he meant fire or acid).

It was awesome.


Did you arrest him?

--EDIT--


No, he left before we got there.


Fuck!

Zendetta
1st April 09, 12:58 PM
Because said motherfuckers sometimes move over here with their same assumptions about appropriate behavior.

I'm sure if you showed respect for their culture and apoligized for being a racist imperialist they will let go of all that backwards mideival stuff.


And then you get to vent your disagreements.

No you don't. Not without having to dodge allegations of racism.

mrblackmagic
1st April 09, 02:20 PM
Human rights.
Que ahora?



No you don't. Not without having to dodge allegations of racism.
You're right. It should be up to the law, which the guy broke.

Odacon
1st April 09, 04:09 PM
God will they just nuke the fucking backward fuckers already?

EuropIan
1st April 09, 04:21 PM
God will they just nuke the fucking backward fuckers already?
So nuclear apocolypse then?

Odacon
1st April 09, 04:37 PM
So nuclear apocolypse then?

Well I cant think of anything good that came out of Afghanistan, apart from wife sanctioned rape and heroin production.

EuropIan
1st April 09, 04:40 PM
I thought you talking about backwards fuckers in general.

But yeah, Afghanistan sucks.

Cullion
1st April 09, 04:50 PM
Wife rape was legal in the UK and most other western countries until well into the 20th century. I think most of you faggots are suffering from 'young, inexperienced liberal university programmed nerd-rage', or to put it in terms you faggots understand 'cultural insensitivity'.

EuropIan
1st April 09, 04:55 PM
No this is more akin to that goofy girl caught wearing last year's fashion.

SO 20th CENTURY OMG!

HappyOldGuy
1st April 09, 04:55 PM
Wife rape was legal in the UK and most other western countries until well into the 20th century. I think most of you faggots are suffering from 'young, inexperienced liberal university programmed nerd-rage', or to put it in terms you faggots understand 'cultural insensitivity'.

Is this the part where I mention all the other things that were legal in western countries well into the 20th century?

bob
1st April 09, 04:57 PM
When the Afghans can come up with humane and just limits on spousal abuse like the 'rule of thumb' (ie. you are able to beat your wife with a stick no thicker than your thumb) then they can consider themselves part of civilization.

Cullion
1st April 09, 04:58 PM
Is this the part where I mention all the other things that were legal in western countries well into the 20th century?

Yes it should be. Because that's my point when facing down 'young ignorant liberal globalist nerd rage'.

EuropIan
1st April 09, 05:04 PM
who are you specifically refering to?

Cullion
1st April 09, 05:07 PM
Everybody else on this dumb thread. Including you, sadly. We'll make up one day.

HappyOldGuy
1st April 09, 05:08 PM
Yes it should be. Because that's my point when facing down 'young ignorant liberal globalist nerd rage'.

I used to work with a guy who's previous job was to administer shock treatments to gay teenagers in order to cure their homosexuality. Yay western elightenment!

EuropIan
1st April 09, 05:12 PM
Everybody else on this dumb thread. Including you, sadly. We'll make up one day.
My comeback was great and you know it, you culturally insensitive faggot.

Cullion
1st April 09, 05:14 PM
I'd like to buy HOG's friend a drink. Homosexuality was illegal in the Isle of Man (a small tax haven just of the English coast in the Irish Sea) until 1992.

I'm asbolutely not shitting you here, but until then, the punishment was birching. i.e. being beaten with a stick.

http://www.corpun.com/7440.jpg

I know this sounds insane, but it's real.

And also, beautiful. I hear there are still gay men who miss the good old days when they could get their ass whipped by a man in uniform for free just by taking a short ferry ride and doing something naughty in a public toilet.

HappyOldGuy
1st April 09, 05:15 PM
My comeback was great and you know it, you culturally insensitive faggot.
Get in the chair quietly son. Don't make me get out the rubber hose.


Homosexuality was illegal in the Isle of Man (a small tax haven just of the English coast in the Irish Sea) until 1992.
Cullion, it still technically is in some states in the US. It is unenforceable today thanks to a supreme court ruling in the ancient dark ages of 2003.

The guy was exactly the kind of petty authoritarian sadist you would expect to do that job well.

Fearless Ukemi
1st April 09, 05:27 PM
I used to work with a guy who's previous job was to administer shock treatments to gay teenagers in order to cure their homosexuality. Yay western elightenment!


Wait, so they aren't hiring anymore?

elipson
1st April 09, 05:34 PM
And also, beautiful. I hear there are still gay men who miss the good old days when they could get their ass whipped by a man in uniform for free just by taking a short ferry ride and doing something naughty in a public toilet.

Sounds like someone is re-living the good ole days in his mind.

EuropIan
1st April 09, 05:41 PM
Get in the chair quietly son. Don't make me get out the rubber hose.



Denmark was one of the first countries to allow same-sex civil unions.

I wasn't even born when the domestic abuse laws were implemented.

Given that context my outrage is understandable.

I also pointed out that backwards fuckerz are everywhere.

Afghanistan is still a sucky country to live in.

HappyOldGuy
1st April 09, 05:46 PM
Denmark was one of the first countries to allow same-sex civil unions.

I wasn't even born when the domestic abuse laws were implemented.

Given that context my outrage is understandable.

I also pointed out that backwards fuckerz are everywhere.

Afghanistan is still a sucky country to live in.

I think you're reading too much into my comment.

I just like beating people with hoses.

Cullion
1st April 09, 05:48 PM
Cullion, it still technically is in some states in the US. It is unenforceable today thanks to a supreme court ruling in the ancient dark ages of 2003.

I'm not talking about some faggy 'don't ask don't tell' arrangement, I'm talking about 'faggots will be beaten with a stick by a man in uniform' as recently as the 90's.



The guy was exactly the kind of butch alpha male you would expect thousands of fags to secretly dream about meeting.

Fixed.

ICY
1st April 09, 05:49 PM
A) Wife rape doesn't exist.

B) Fuck Islam, but especially, fuck Aghanistan.

C) Who cares about Aghanistan.

EuropIan
1st April 09, 05:54 PM
I think you're reading too much into my comment.

I just like beating people with hoses.

As long as it is sorta consentual

HappyOldGuy
1st April 09, 05:55 PM
As long as it is sorta consentual

Interesting. I'll have to try that some time.

EuropIan
1st April 09, 06:02 PM
Interesting. I'll have to try that some time.
They have this bullshit concept called "safewords", though..


Fuckin pussies.

Virus
1st April 09, 08:16 PM
I guess the West had better sit back and watch human rights be abused and refuse to condemn the theocratic states which green-light it. We wouldn't want to be hypocrites.

Sun Wukong
1st April 09, 08:25 PM
So, since when did virus start dripping with all the anti-Islam sentiment?

I don't like religion in general, so my question is, why stop at singling out the Muslims?

I think the Muslim community certainly has serious problems, but their problems weren't really caused by their religion; rather it is a product of their worst small minded, xenophobic leaders and some truly screwed up demagogues.

HappyOldGuy
1st April 09, 09:26 PM
I guess the West had better sit back and watch human rights be abused and refuse to condemn the theocratic states which green-light it. We wouldn't want to be hypocrites.

It would be good to stand up for what is right.
It would be good not to be hypocrites.

Virus
1st April 09, 10:24 PM
So, since when did virus start dripping with all the anti-Islam sentiment?

I've been dripping for some time now. Been a lot of drippage.



I don't like religion in general, so my question is, why stop at singling out the Muslims?

Yes, all religions are irrational but in the here-and-now they are not all equal in terms of the harm their adherents inflict on others. When it comes to investing effort to make other people's lives miserable, Muslims seem to be at the forefront.



I think the Muslim community certainly has serious problems, but their problems weren't really caused by their religion; rather it is a product of their worst small minded, xenophobic leaders and some truly screwed up demagogues.

Yeah, Islamic small minded leaders and Islamic screwed up demagogues and Islamic people who take them seriously. Regardless of what "t3h r34l" Islam is or isn't, there are millions of people who literally believe you will be allowed into paradise if you be a dick to people. The problem with the mullahs and immams is not that they aren't familiar enough with their magic books.

Harpy
1st April 09, 11:12 PM
So what can we do from wherever we live to protest/speak out against the law that's just been passed?

Do we urge our local ministers, state ministers etc. to continue to support Australian troops over there and make any aid given tied to influencing the policies/laws of the country?

ICY
1st April 09, 11:18 PM
I think the Muslim community certainly has serious problems, but their problems weren't really caused by their religion; rather it is a product of their worst small minded, xenophobic leaders and some truly screwed up demagogues.

Yes...except that they seem to rule almost every Muslim country, at almost every time throughout history that Islam has existed.

HappyOldGuy
1st April 09, 11:23 PM
history
File this under words you're not allowed to use anymore.

At least not until you understand that Islamic cultures were more advanced than western ones for most of it's history.

EuropIan
1st April 09, 11:33 PM
File this under words you're not allowed to use anymore.

At least not until you understand that Islamic cultures were more advanced than western ones for most of it's history.
The operative word here is 'were'

Then something happened.

Harpy
1st April 09, 11:37 PM
At least not until you understand that Islamic cultures were more advanced than western ones for most of it's history.

HOG, just out of interest, can you explain what you mean by 'culture' here?

HappyOldGuy
1st April 09, 11:37 PM
The operative word here is 'were'

Then something happened.
I think victim of their own success. They were fat and happy (and corrupt as fuck) on top at precisely the wrong time in history to be complacent.

Edit: they=ottomans for clarity.

EuropIan
1st April 09, 11:40 PM
I think victim of their own success. They were fat and happy (and corrupt as fuck) on top at precisely the wrong time in history to be complacent.
You dodged the white guilt bullet there but I have another sniper on the grassy knoll.

HappyOldGuy
1st April 09, 11:43 PM
You dodged the white guilt bullet there but I have another sniper on the grassy knoll.
I'm interested. Take the shot. I'm not opposed to the notion that there was something deeper going on, but I do think that there was alot of not noticing the slow rot underneath the glided throne going on. I think of it as the curse of the Byzantines.

ICY
1st April 09, 11:44 PM
File this under words you're not allowed to use anymore.

At least not until you understand that Islamic cultures were more advanced than western ones for most of it's history.

Remind me at what point I said that Christianity, or Western Civilization in general, was any better up until a couple hundred years ago?

Christianity is shit. Islam, same shit, different pile.

Any society that's highly influenced by religion (or any sort of less than scientific horseshit, see Fascism or Communism) is going to be fucked. Yes, Islamic societies were, for a few hundred years, more civilized, but that is relative to total barbarity and only because they inherited the cultural advancements of the Eastern Roman Empire and were at the crossroads of the world.

That doesn't mean that, in relation to a truly advanced society, no Islamic society has ever advanced beyond barbarism.

EuropIan
1st April 09, 11:51 PM
I'm interested. Take the shot. I'm not opposed to the notion that there was something deeper going on, but I do think that there was alot of not noticing the slow rot underneath the glided throne going on. I think of it as the curse of the Byzantines.

You know I'm going to blame the British and ,by extension, the white man. But mostly I was jerkin your chain.

I think it's foolish to solely attribute the fall muslim culture on external factors. Being opulent can make you dumb, there is no doubt about that.

Conversely, I also think that having a major schism so early in a religion's history has lead to some very dumb stuff.

mrm1775
2nd April 09, 03:03 AM
Been there. Seen it. Got shot at a little. Afghanistan is a backwards place by its very nature, and it will continue to be backwards for a long time to come. However, it is gradually becoming less backwards than it was under the Taliban. The point of the conflict over there isn't to bring them overnight into the glorious light of Western civilization (*sarcasm*), but to stabilize the country enough to keep the local brand of jackassery from being everyone else's problem.

Most of the Afghans want to enter the modern world. In order to do this, they will gradually have to put aside the baser parts of their culture that continue to hold them back. It is going to take a few generations for all that idiocy to wither away. Right now the best we can do is help keep them from becoming a completely failed state and tell them when they are acting like jackasses.

EuropIan
2nd April 09, 03:11 AM
They also have landmines all over the place

Lebell
2nd April 09, 06:51 AM
Arent we a bunch of pussy bleeding hearts?

A couple of thoughts from uncle Lebell...

First of all, i love it how on this thread i see this banner saying: 'meet sexy maroccan girls for marriage!'
Rape included?
One wonders.

Second: has anyone of you guys actually seen an average afghan woman?
Not exactly a bunch of lookers.
I think even with the law the rape will be kept down to a minimum.

Besides, we musnt approach it from a superior Western point of view, let's try to put ourselves in their shoes.

I can imagine im a opiumfarmer....my name's Ahmed, ive been working long days on the field for my shitty warlord boss while he's getting it on with 10 year old boys.

I worked all day, i get home and there's no food on the table and i dont see my wife anywhere, turns out the lazy bitch is in the bathroom shaving her upperlip.
Hm..kinda looks sexy..a bare upperlip...


And there you have it.

Man i should do Ethnotology, im good at this!

Kein Haar
2nd April 09, 06:56 AM
Yes, Lebell.

Click my sig, #19

HappyOldGuy
2nd April 09, 10:42 AM
Second: has anyone of you guys actually seen an average afghan woman?
Not exactly a bunch of lookers.
I think even with the law the rape will be kept down to a minimum.


Fremont has a big expat community.

They clean up nice.

I'm imperialist in my jeans.

Lebell
2nd April 09, 10:46 AM
What the hell is Fremont?
Sounds kinda french...

I used to have Nepali servants up in India, they were like little gnomes running around the house.

I felt a bit like that guy from the chocolate factory.
They wouldnt let me paint them green though, appearantly they have some sort of right on human dignity.

kracker
2nd April 09, 11:02 AM
Believe it or not, I actually got called a racist by the prof and a couple of my classmates for saying that I feel sorry for Muslim women in my social psychology class. It's "Islamophobic" of me to say that Muslim women are oppressed even though IT'S THE MOTHERFUCKING TRUTH! How is it racist to care about my fellow human beings?! Seriously what the fuck is wrong with people?

Doritosaurus Chex
2nd April 09, 11:59 AM
Life imitates Sociocide for kracker.

KhorneliusPraxx
2nd April 09, 12:34 PM
[quote=ModernAmericanLiberal]Leave the Muslims alone...you have no right to question their cultural quirks, now christianity...there is the true evil in the world, with their turn the other cheek and what not.[quote]

HappyOldGuy
2nd April 09, 12:36 PM
Believe it or not, I actually got called a racist by the prof and a couple of my classmates for saying that I feel sorry for Muslim women in my social psychology class. It's "Islamophobic" of me to say that Muslim women are oppressed even though IT'S THE MOTHERFUCKING TRUTH! How is it racist to care about my fellow human beings?! Seriously what the fuck is wrong with people?
They know that muslim is a big umbrella that often doesn't look anything like your expectations?

Say Saudi or Afghani and they probably won't laugh at you so much.

Cullion
2nd April 09, 01:22 PM
It depends on social class too. Saudi princesses go to university and serve as government ministers.

Cullion
2nd April 09, 01:31 PM
You know I'm going to blame the British and ,by extension, the white man. But mostly I was jerkin your chain.

Stop trying to claim our glory, Dane. You don't get a 'we had a huge empire once' badge just by being white.

I'm not ashamed of our role in civilising their territory.

This is Palestine when we ruled it:-
http://fai.cyberia.net.lb/Photo/Petit/0025ka00001p.jpg

This is a palestinian family now
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_lHn1p7q95Qs/SYxd_cWPERI/AAAAAAAAFkM/ElHbK-e62wo/s400/UNRWA-RJ-WADI+DLEIL-12+%28Historical%29+Dheisha+Refugee+camp,+Bethlehe m,+West+bank+1949.jpg

Maybe they need us back.

Lebell
2nd April 09, 03:29 PM
ehr...i just realised something.

how can it be rape if its with your own wife?!

rw4th
2nd April 09, 03:45 PM
ehr...i just realised something.

how can it be rape if its with your own wife?!

She says no, you force her to do it anyways ... was this actually a serious question?

Lebell
2nd April 09, 04:12 PM
She says no, you force her to do it anyways ... was this actually a serious question?

why would she say no?
you're married.
unless she has her period or something.

i never heared of a case in which a wife is raped by her husband, thats like a contradiction in terminology.

Feryk
2nd April 09, 04:23 PM
why would she say no?
you're married.
unless she has her period or something.

i never heared of a case in which a wife is raped by her husband, thats like a contradiction in terminology.

Never get married, Lebell. You are out of your depth.

EuropIan
2nd April 09, 04:30 PM
I'm not ashamed of our role in civilising their territory.
st+bank+1949.jpg[/img]

Maybe they need us back.

I'm blaming you guys for leaving.




Stop trying to claim our glory, Dane. You don't get a 'we had a huge empire once' badge just by being white.


We didn't have a huge empire, but we owned you once.

http://www.bredalsparken.dk/%7Esoren-kretzschmer/danmark1035.jpg

Lebell
2nd April 09, 04:32 PM
Never get married, Lebell. You are out of your depth.

seriously dude...are you honestly saying that a married woman can sue her husband for raping her?!

thats fucking crazy!!!

Feryk
2nd April 09, 04:37 PM
Yes. That is what I'm saying.

And the whole 'why would she deny you when you are married' thing is a joke, right?

Lebell
2nd April 09, 04:44 PM
ehr...sure..a joke...

why would a wife be allowed to eny you sex?
you're married, you have needs, she just has to get over herself and close her eyes.

what if the guy goes like: well, i might be married to you but i wont fix the roof or paint the walls or put the garbage out.

whats the friggin point of being married?
marriage is sometimes about sacrifice.

Doritosaurus Chex
2nd April 09, 04:46 PM
Wow. I thought Lebell was setting up the "There's No More Sex Once You're Married" jokes.

Kein Haar
2nd April 09, 05:01 PM
Do Afghan women go ass-to-mouth?

Quikfeet509
2nd April 09, 06:23 PM
When did they actually make it a crime to rape your wife in the USA? In the 70's or something?

Cullion
2nd April 09, 06:41 PM
I'm blaming you guys for leaving.

Alright. I can agree with that. We've been experiencing a temporary loss of political backbone, and we will get back to you once it's resolved.



We didn't have a huge empire, but we owned you once.

http://www.bredalsparken.dk/%7Esoren-kretzschmer/danmark1035.jpg

The part of you that did that was the best of you, and they became part of us, leaving the skraelings behind. lol.

(Actually, the part of us that is better connected with the Danish people is a couple of hundred years more recent, in the North of England, rather than the Norman or Saxon territories you highlight. We knew it as the Danelaw)

Cullion
2nd April 09, 06:45 PM
Do Afghan women go ass-to-mouth?

Not with people outside the clan, as far as I can tell. But why would you want to put your mouth on their asses without a lot of vaccination shots?

As far as I can tell, the westerners in Afghanistan are currently being serviced by imported chinese farm girls when on RnR back in Kabul, which is of course swell.

Cullion
2nd April 09, 06:49 PM
She says no, you force her to do it anyways ... was this actually a serious question?

His question was about the traditional Christian marriage contract. You promise to screw her when she wants, she promises to screw you when you want. You promise to always pony up the childcare costs, she promises to get dinner on the table. I say 'he' and 'she' without any Irony, because that was the deal when 'marriage' was invented. Simple.

Of course, some people want something different these days, and it's noble, but it's so equal and free, why sign a contract at all? as for some ceremony in church.. what's the point?

Of course, that's not marriage in any recognisable sense. Just have girlfriends or boyfriends and be equitable about the finances for offspring which are provably carrying your genetic template, when one of you decides to move on. Or not, if you're on welfare. That's how it's supposed to work, right ?

Any questions ?

Harpy
2nd April 09, 06:53 PM
whats the friggin point of being married?
marriage is sometimes about sacrifice.

Are you being stupid?

Cullion
2nd April 09, 06:55 PM
No, he has a very harsh, but real point.

HappyOldGuy
2nd April 09, 07:06 PM
No, he has a very harsh, but real point.
So you think that Lebell is a first century christian?

Also, there is no support at all for the notion that a husband can use violence to assert his "rights."

Cullion
2nd April 09, 07:15 PM
I think Lebell is raping the liberal consensus with sweet, sweet trolling.

My question to you, HOG, is do you think anybody can use violence to assert their contractual rights, or do you think it's ok for a court to ignore any contract that one party wants to violate because they 'don't feel like it right now' and said court should say 'ok, well we can't enforce that because the only recourse we really have is to order proxies to use violence'.

Power grows from the barrel of a gun. As you well know.

Please, resolve this reductionist but true argument for me.

Zendetta
2nd April 09, 07:27 PM
I think Lebell is raping the liberal consensus with sweet, sweet trolling.

I gotta say... I admire his talent. The man is an artiste.

He's ten times the Troll that Cracky could ever hope to be.

HappyOldGuy
2nd April 09, 08:15 PM
I think Lebell is raping the liberal consensus with sweet, sweet trolling.

My question to you, HOG, is do you think anybody can use violence to assert their contractual rights, or do you think it's ok for a court to ignore any contract that one party wants to violate because they 'don't feel like it right now' and said court should say 'ok, well we can't enforce that because the only recourse we really have is to order proxies to use violence'.

Power grows from the barrel of a gun. As you well know.

Please, resolve this reductionist but true argument for me.

Any number of levels.

First of all, the biblical passage on which your entire argument rests is not presenting a contractual agreement.


A wife does not have authority over her own body, but her husband does. In the same way, a husband doesn't have authority over his own body, but his wife does. Do not withhold yourselves from each other unless you agree to do so just for a set time, in order to devote yourselves to prayer. Then you should come together again so that Satan does not tempt you through your lack of self-control. But I say this as a concession, not as a command.

It was only your countries moronic reductionist protestantism that insisted on a literal reading of that passage while ignoring the context that Saint Paul expected the imminent end of the world and didn't want anyone getting married. But preferred it to their sin. It also ignores the command in Collosians that husbands never treat their wives harshly.

Secondly, no court accepts rape as a penalty for the most serious of crimes.

Thirdly no individual can ever use violence to assert their own contractual rights or for any unlawful reason. There is a reason we give a monopoly on violence to the state. To allow people to seek their own justice invites escalating cycles of retaliation that destroy the fabric of society and lead to civil war.

Theres three. deal with those and we'll keep going.

rw4th
2nd April 09, 10:00 PM
I think Lebell is raping the liberal consensus with sweet, sweet trolling.

Yeah, I am figuring as much.

ICY
2nd April 09, 11:17 PM
why would she say no?
you're married.
unless she has her period or something.


I don't see why that would be a valid excuse.


why would you want to put your mouth on their asses without a lot of vaccination shots?


Because it's awesome?


Also, there is no support at all for the notion that a husband can use violence to assert his "rights."

That depends on what you consider violence.


I gotta say... I admire his talent. The man is an artiste.

He's ten times the Troll that Cracky could ever hope to be.

...

EuropIan
3rd April 09, 01:21 AM
I think it's important to note how marriage has been redefined over the ages.

Think about how in the past the man would chose a wife without her having a say about it.

besides, wasn't the punishment for rape in some cultures that you had to marry the woman you raped?

Whattayagonna do? marry her again?

tl;dr secular humanism isn't that bad.

EuropIan
3rd April 09, 01:36 AM
The part of you that did that was the best of you, and they became part of us, leaving the skraelings behind. lol.

(Actually, the part of us that is better connected with the Danish people is a couple of hundred years more recent, in the North of England, rather than the Norman or Saxon territories you highlight. We knew it as the Danelaw)
The Danalagen was where all Knut's fanboys lived, it is also the part of us we left in you because you refused to let go when we decided to leave you (878).

Mind you the rest was still ours since we were supposed to protect it

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/64/England_after_886.jpg/531px-England_after_886.jpg

Please also note that we intentionaly didn't touch Wales

Kein Haar
3rd April 09, 03:14 AM
Not with people outside the clan, as far as I can tell. But why would you want to put your mouth on their asses without a lot of vaccination shots?

As far as I can tell, the westerners in Afghanistan are currently being serviced by imported chinese farm girls when on RnR back in Kabul, which is of course swell.

No no NO!

After my wiener goes in her butt, she finishes me off with fellatio.

danno
3rd April 09, 04:55 AM
I guess the West had better sit back and watch human rights be abused and refuse to condemn the theocratic states which green-light it. We wouldn't want to be hypocrites.

australia says NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

E4GU-Eh9JyU

7Ee5RMexNGM

Lebell
3rd April 09, 05:50 AM
You guys are brainwashed.

Look, let me explain it to you and keep an open mind, okay?

When you marry a person you are promising to be a team, you are supposed to be commited to that person for the rest of your or your partners life.
The constitution of marriage is develloped to try to ensure the offspring is taken care off by both parents.

So a married couple buys a house, starts a household, children usually come.
So it's important that a marriage is healthy, right?
Men are usually more technical and practical and not so good with feelings and nursering, so a marriage usually ends up with the mum staying home looking after the kids when they're really young and the man works and does jobs around the house.

A man has needs, and in order for the marriage to stay healthy he should be able to have sex whenever he wants.
Unless for obvious reasons such as period or when he has unnatural preferences in the bed.

As long as a man performs his duties he is entitled to his rights.
The problem lies with women.
Once you marry them they let go, they were baggy clothes, grow an ass half the size of the european subcontinent and they take up classes such as ' self expression painting in action' or ' douchebag taught yoga' .
They bitch about everything and all they put first are the kids.
Then for some reason they feel like they have the right to denie the man his right to sex?
Those kind of women use it as powerplay, as a weapon, and thats true violence.

You are married, nobody forced you, get over it.

any man who disagrees is just brainwashed by the 21st century feminine jihad.

Kein Haar
3rd April 09, 07:13 AM
You are married, nobody forced you...

O rly?

Lebell
3rd April 09, 07:48 AM
O rly?

I meant in the West.

In aghanistan and many other cultures thats their way of doing things.
It has it positive sides too.
Poor families can profit when they let their daughters have a marriage with richer older guys.
Yeah, for us it seems weird, but what if you're shitpoor?

In a way it works for them.
Women should learn to be less childish and stop that disneycrap about one true love and romance etc.
It's not the way the real world works.

Quikfeet509
3rd April 09, 07:49 AM
Once you marry them they let go, they were baggy clothes, grow an ass half the size of the european subcontinent and they take up classes such as ' self expression painting in action' or ' douchebag taught yoga' .

Check.



Then for some reason they feel like they have the right to denie the man his right to sex?



Most important question is why you would want to hit it with a fat slob? If they aren't willing to stay in shape, then you have the right to throw em in the gutter and go find another.

That's what Jesus would do.


On the other hand, Allah would find a 6 year old girl and Buddah likes the fat love.

ICY
3rd April 09, 08:24 AM
Unless for obvious reasons such as period or when he has unnatural preferences in the bed.

Having her period is not a reason, and there's no such thing as unnatural preferences.


Women should learn to be less childish and stop that disneycrap about one true love and romance etc.
It's not the way the real world works.

It can.

Virus
3rd April 09, 09:20 AM
You guys are brainwashed.

Look, let me explain it to you and keep an open mind, okay?

When you marry a person you are promising to be a team, you are supposed to be commited to that person for the rest of your or your partners life.
The constitution of marriage is develloped to try to ensure the offspring is taken care off by both parents.

So a married couple buys a house, starts a household, children usually come.
So it's important that a marriage is healthy, right?
Men are usually more technical and practical and not so good with feelings and nursering, so a marriage usually ends up with the mum staying home looking after the kids when they're really young and the man works and does jobs around the house.

A man has needs, and in order for the marriage to stay healthy he should be able to have sex whenever he wants.
Unless for obvious reasons such as period or when he has unnatural preferences in the bed.

As long as a man performs his duties he is entitled to his rights.
The problem lies with women.
Once you marry them they let go, they were baggy clothes, grow an ass half the size of the european subcontinent and they take up classes such as ' self expression painting in action' or ' douchebag taught yoga' .
They bitch about everything and all they put first are the kids.
Then for some reason they feel like they have the right to denie the man his right to sex?
Those kind of women use it as powerplay, as a weapon, and thats true violence.

You are married, nobody forced you, get over it.

any man who disagrees is just brainwashed by the 21st century feminine jihad.

I prefer cracky's trolling.

rw4th
3rd April 09, 09:43 AM
Most important question is why you would want to hit it with a fat slob? If they aren't willing to stay in shape, then you have the right to throw em in the gutter and go find another.

She can either stay in shape and be a pornstar in the bedroom or be replace by one. Yup, I'm down wit dat, sign me up for that religion.

KhorneliusPraxx
3rd April 09, 09:59 AM
I'm with Lebell.

HappyOldGuy
3rd April 09, 10:19 AM
I'm with Lebell.

So you're the one who's not giving it up enough for him?

KhorneliusPraxx
3rd April 09, 10:26 AM
Wait...I mean...oh, I see what you did there...

GuiltySpark
3rd April 09, 11:41 AM
If you think rape is bad in Afghanistan it's legal for a man to kill his wife for (alledgedly) cheating on him.

You can guess how much that law gets abused.

You haven't been embarassed of the human race until you see a 9 year old girl with her face melted because some monster threw acid on her face for not wearing burka.

The hardcore islamic nutjobs are fucking monsters and should be put to the sword.

Odacon
3rd April 09, 03:34 PM
I know in christianity the priests hockey young boys out of it but at least it's severely condemned and sometimes punished, in islam all the horribly shit they do seems to be touted as righteous.

AAAhmed46
3rd April 09, 09:23 PM
Saw interview with one of the woman who voted for it.

She said that she had no idea what was actually in the bill.

Infact alot of people who voted for it didn't.

It's like i said long long ago on this board: The taliban started out as a movement against warlords, then it became a hand of pashtu nationalism.

Now, what we have now is the same thing happening under a different government. THis time with shia.


Now, what are they going to do now that it's passed?



And the thing about afganistan is that it's utterly hilarious and confusing. Every tribe has it's own little quirk, every tribe is pissed off at another tribe, every tribe has it's beef or problems.

AAAhmed46
3rd April 09, 09:33 PM
I know in christianity the priests hockey young boys out of it but at least it's severely condemned and sometimes punished, in islam all the horribly shit they do seems to be touted as righteous.

Islam is not nearly as monolithic as catholism or politically united like evangelican christianity.

So who is touting it as rightious? THe dirty looking wahabi in the corner or the head of majour organizations?

But all of the most prestigious and well known islamic organizations condemn terrorism. Just google search it.

If any of you call "taqiya' remember, it's a shia concept, most organizations that apologize for terrorism are sunni, but the haters rarely mention that don't they?

EuropIan
4th April 09, 04:52 AM
I get mad because there are enough people of the 'right mind' that this dark ages shit can pass as a law.

Lebell
4th April 09, 06:27 AM
you guys are being insensitive.
it's their country they can vote for whatever the fuck they like.
perhaps in your eyes its retarded, but hey...you dont have to live under those rules, right?

for all im concerned they pass bills that enables rape of domesticated animals on every full moon.


more power to em.

EuropIan
4th April 09, 07:51 AM
I know that moral judgements are effectively meaningless, Lebell

Lebell
4th April 09, 08:06 AM
this thread is making me sick.
i actually had to EXPLAIN how you cant technically rape your wife.
if people don't get that they fail at life.
NEVER let a woman get the better of you.

They're heartless soulless creatures.

The ancient cultures were right.

Cullion
4th April 09, 09:04 AM
I know that moral judgements are effectively meaningless, Lebell

Lebell isn't talking about moral relativism. He's saying they're right.

Lebell
4th April 09, 09:13 AM
Lebell isn't talking about moral relativism. He's saying they're right.

yup.

look you p.c. left wing bastards...try to get through your thick skulls: man,woman, MARRIED.
Man provides food, woman provides regularly based sex.
Woman does not feel like sex but husband has rights, woman stops nagging, gets over herself and takes it for those 5 minutes, the rest of the 24 hours in a fucking day are hers again.

no big deal.

EuropIan
4th April 09, 09:13 AM
Too bad muslim divorce laws suck.

Cullion
4th April 09, 09:30 AM
Any number of levels.

First of all, the biblical passage on which your entire argument rests is not presenting a contractual agreement.

My argument doesn't rest on a biblical passage, it rests on ordinary common sense.




It was only your countries moronic reductionist protestantism that insisted on a literal reading of that passage while ignoring the context that Saint Paul expected the imminent end of the world and didn't want anyone getting married. But preferred it to their sin. It also ignores the command in Collosians that husbands never treat their wives harshly.

Stop trying to intellectualise your way around this. It doesn't rely on the Bible for it's validity.



Secondly, no court accepts rape as a penalty for the most serious of crimes.

So what ? They do accept murder. I'm not trying to argue that you should be allowed to kill your wife without at least having a council meeting with the wise men of the town first.



Thirdly no individual can ever use violence to assert their own contractual rights or for any unlawful reason.

Moot point, this isn't an unlawful reason.



There is a reason we give a monopoly on violence to the state.

Er.. where do you live again?

There is not yet a monopoly in licit violence for the state in the US, and long may it be so. We almost have a complete one in the UK. Replicate it, and you will replicate our mistakes.



To allow people to seek their own justice invites escalating cycles of retaliation that destroy the fabric of society and lead to civil war.

That's an absurd point that makes a false distinction between 'government employees' and 'people'.

Also, women secretly like being ordered around. Why would you deny them that with your marxist inspired quasi-homosexual outlook on life?

Lebell
4th April 09, 09:51 AM
Also, women secretly like being ordered around. Why would you deny them that with your marxist inspired quasi-homosexual outlook on life?

Harsh...look, he's just a bit older and his testosteron drops, its only natural, cut him some slack.

Cullion
4th April 09, 10:04 AM
Too bad muslim divorce laws suck.

What is it you don't like about muslim divorce laws?

rw4th
4th April 09, 11:07 AM
This guy had it right


http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m298/rw4th/01.gif

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m298/rw4th/02.gif

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m298/rw4th/03.gif

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m298/rw4th/04.gif

HappyOldGuy
4th April 09, 11:14 AM
I love it that you guys think that married men want to have sex with their wives. If you allow marital rape, men are gonna be the victims.

EuropIan
4th April 09, 11:17 AM
What is it you don't like about muslim divorce laws?
How there are different criteria for being able to file for divorce between genders.

rw4th
4th April 09, 11:23 AM
How there are different criteria for being able to file for divorce between genders.

My TV is not allowed to make decisions, why should women?

Cullion
4th April 09, 11:25 AM
Why is that such a crime? What makes you think that men and women should live by the same rules?

Ajamil
4th April 09, 11:41 AM
I'll try a naturalist stab with: since both genders are necessary for the continuation of the species, it would seem wise to have equal care for...

Actually scratch that, because if I was arguing for successful gene transmission, than keeping the baby machine safely locked away in the house and not letting her say no to sex would probably be a better way to go.

Cullion
4th April 09, 11:53 AM
So we're agreed. Welcome Arjuna. Our team isn't currently a popular one, but mark my words, it's a lot more fun here, and we are going to win.

Ajamil
4th April 09, 12:51 PM
Damn my Devil's Advocate tendencies, you've turned me Muslim!

qxDJMn-534Y

Actually, not done yet on this side, because while the biological tendencies (man protect, fight - woman prepare food, nuture) can in some ways be seen as universal, exactly how they play are cultural. The traits picked by each gender (a dominant/submissive partner, a strong/weak, smart/stupid, physical matters/doesn't matter) are determined in a slightly circular way, yes? The biology sets up some sort of social behavior, which encourages and discourages through natural selection certain traits - the evolution of the prefences can in rough way sbe traced by the cultural ideals. These are not entirely biological processes anymore, so shouldn't be based solely on baby-making. There's long term (since humans can think in long terms) consequences, overcrowding, etc.

For example, since men and semen are cheap and plentiful, wouldn't it make more sense for the woman to be able to choose among many - in effect to be super sluts and let the best man's semen win? (Please say yes, wimmenz, please oh please!)

Well not really, because - again due to cultural gender roles and a bit of biology - women seem to look more for a male who will stay and care for and raise children for permanent couplings.

Cullion
4th April 09, 05:07 PM
I don't know why you're intellectualising this so much. You're a man. You know what's right.

danno
4th April 09, 05:21 PM
pzOBlPKZjxE

Harpy
4th April 09, 06:34 PM
Also, women secretly like being ordered around. Why would you deny them that with your marxist inspired quasi-homosexual outlook on life?

I've only met one guy in my life that dared order me around. I get both angry and flustered whenever it happens. He's also extremely protective but doesn't allow me to be weak as he says that when he's not around that at least he knows I can look after myself. I have a very tense friendship with him but trust him with my life.

So in conclusion, I don't agree with you Cullion.

Robot Jesus
4th April 09, 06:57 PM
you have just been brainwashed by the femnazi werewolf women of the SS

HappyOldGuy
4th April 09, 07:00 PM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/92/Shewolf.jpg

Harpy
4th April 09, 07:40 PM
Oh come on guys! I am not a feminazi, its one thing to be guided by males (that's okay) but another to be ordered around. Unless it is a matter of a threat to me or I'm at MA training, I won't take orders from anyone, regardless of gender.

Back to the 'wife rape' thing. I think between two people in a marriage there is a power balance and sex is one thing that is negotiated in this. Whatever works for both is good in my books. To make 'rape' a crime or to 'legalise' it in marriage is not a good idea.

HappyOldGuy
4th April 09, 07:54 PM
Would you at least wear the boots?

Harpy
4th April 09, 08:03 PM
I prefer the dark uniform at the left of the picture, with the garrison cap:

http://www.army.cz/acr/stejnokroje/32/3205.jpg

May all rapist husbands burn in hell.

Robot Jesus
4th April 09, 08:03 PM
Oh come on guys! I am not a feminazi, its one thing to be guided by males (that's okay) but another to be ordered around. Unless it is a matter of a threat to me or I'm at MA training, I won't take orders from anyone, regardless of gender.

Back to the 'wife rape' thing. I think between two people in a marriage there is a power balance and sex is one thing that is negotiated in this. Whatever works for both is good in my books. To make 'rape' a crime or to 'legalise' it in marriage is not a good idea.


I never said you where a femnazi, i only said you had been brainwashed by the femnazi werewolf women of the SS. two different things entierly

Cullion
5th April 09, 08:04 AM
I've only met one guy in my life that dared order me around. I get both angry and flustered whenever it happens. He's also extremely protective but doesn't allow me to be weak as he says that when he's not around that at least he knows I can look after myself. I have a very tense friendship with him but trust him with my life.

So in conclusion, I don't agree with you Cullion.

Oh but you do. You clearly love this man dearly.

Lebell
5th April 09, 08:12 AM
The thing is, ordering women around is for relationship-noobs.

Women have weak points: maternal feelings, guilt trips and chronic insecurity about how they look and if men find them attractive.

Once you can play those buttons you'll notice a powershift in your relationship.

I discuss this into greather lenght in my book thats being published soon: 'Psychological pimphand: how to keep your bitch in check.'

danno
5th April 09, 08:21 AM
well, i'm just not interested in women.

what do you take me for, some kind of lesbo-man?

Harpy
5th April 09, 07:44 PM
Oh but you do. You clearly love this man dearly.

I do. However to be married to such a man would be insufferable.

So Cullion, do you order your wife around regularly?

GuiltySpark
5th April 09, 08:06 PM
Taking it out of context. In this case it's not a matter of ordering someone around.
Women are property. Men own women. They've been sold in the market.
It's common to beat the living fuck out of them.
We had a medic who had to take a man (who beat his wife unconscious) and explain to him which hole to put it in. He was beating his wife because she wouldn't give him a son, she wouldn't get pregnant. The dumb fuck grew up 'practicing' fucking guys in the ass and couldn't figure out why his wife wasn't getting pregnant.

Some of the comments here contain the same level of stupid.

Harpy
5th April 09, 08:13 PM
^^ Thanks for bringing it back to the epic backwardness of how women really are treated in Afghanistan. I think most of us can't even comprehend not having any personal power, the fact that there are no public support groups, the unbreaking cycle of abuse, control, dominance against women and the oppression of living in a community where seeking help would probably only get you returned to your 'owner'.

We're 'lucky' that we can make jokes about it as we'll never know that sort of existence.

danno
5th April 09, 08:38 PM
Taking it out of context. In this case it's not a matter of ordering someone around.
Women are property. Men own women. They've been sold in the market.
It's common to beat the living fuck out of them.
We had a medic who had to take a man (who beat his wife unconscious) and explain to him which hole to put it in. He was beating his wife because she wouldn't give him a son, she wouldn't get pregnant. The dumb fuck grew up 'practicing' fucking guys in the ass and couldn't figure out why his wife wasn't getting pregnant.

Some of the comments here contain the same level of stupid.

i thought sex with other men was supposed to be evil?

GuiltySpark
5th April 09, 09:56 PM
i thought sex with other men was supposed to be evil?

It's widely accepted & how they've always done things. The Taliban were against homosexuality and child abuse (sexual) punishing it with, naturally, death. When the Taliban were in power it just went underground, now that friendly ISAF is there we look at each other and say, are they allowed to do that? Mean while they prace around and bugger little boys.

Ajamil
5th April 09, 10:09 PM
you guys are being insensitive.
it's their country they can vote for whatever the fuck they like.
perhaps in your eyes its retarded, but hey...you dont have to live under those rules, right?

for all im concerned they pass bills that enables rape of domesticated animals on every full moon.


more power to em.

It kind of comes back to this, and sorry for bringing up old posts, but I saw this and wanted to comment.

I have no problem with a government passing any law it wants. Other than economic and miltary force, there are no rules for nations.

However, when a government requires almost nothing from its citizens (like a govt. that makes all its money selling oil - so can fund itself no matter what happens to the people actually living in the nation), AND does NOT ALLOW people to leave, or choose whether to be governed by those rules - that's when I get a little mad.

Also, going by this logic, who can condemn one nation for attacking another, for whatever reason they wish? Unless we attack your nation, why are you getting involved? (Enter Godwin's law and "When they came for the gypsies...")

socratic
5th April 09, 10:13 PM
It's almost like they need some kind of document, some kind of paper or something that says what the rights of men and women are. Shit, we could all use one of those. So I guess we'll get everyone together in some kind of united gathering of like, nations, think about it for awhile and write one. What should we call it? I dunno, it's kinda like, universal, since everyone should follow its guidelines, and it is our declaration of human rights.

Uh....

"The Club of Civilizations Everybody Has Rights As They Are Humans Document"? Naw, doesn't have that ring to it... Damn....

Ajamil
5th April 09, 10:48 PM
It's almost like they need some kind of document, some kind of paper or something that says what the rights of men and women are. Shit, we could all use one of those. So I guess we'll get everyone together in some kind of united gathering of like, nations, think about it for awhile and write one. What should we call it? I dunno, it's kinda like, universal, since everyone should follow its guidelines, and it is our declaration of human rights.

Uh....

"The Club of Civilizations Everybody Has Rights As They Are Humans Document"? Naw, doesn't have that ring to it... Damn....

As I said, unless you back up this paper with economic sanctions or miltary operations against violators, what force does it have?

How often are the UN accused of going "C'mon u guiz! Srsly!!"

socratic
5th April 09, 10:57 PM
As I said, unless you back up this paper with economic sanctions or miltary operations against violators, what force does it have?

How often are the UN accused of going "C'mon u guiz! Srsly!!"

I didn't mean the UN wasn't shit, I meant the Declaration of Human Rights was awesome.

Damn, trying to get all moksha up in my samsara, eh?

Ajamil
5th April 09, 11:31 PM
I didn't mean the UN wasn't shit, I meant the Declaration of Human Rights was awesome.
Indeed so, and similarly, I love whoever pressured Jefferson to change our inalienable rights from sacred to self-evident in the drafts of the Dec. of Ind.


Damn, trying to get all moksha up in my samsara, eh?

Your FREE to ROLL however you wish, prabhu.

Lebell
6th April 09, 05:27 AM
I have no problem with a government passing any law it wants. Other than economic and miltary force, there are no rules for nations.

Even if you had a problem with it, what you gonna do? :-O



However, when a government requires almost nothing from its citizens (like a govt. that makes all its money selling oil - so can fund itself no matter what happens to the people actually living in the nation), AND does NOT ALLOW people to leave, or choose whether to be governed by those rules - that's when I get a little mad.

Why should they leave?
Where to?
To my country so they can shit it up like they did back home?
Fuck em.
Instead of running be a fucking man and topple your government or be killed in the proces.



Also, going by this logic, who can condemn one nation for attacking another, for whatever reason they wish? Unless we attack your nation, why are you getting involved? (Enter Godwin's law and "When they came for the gypsies...")

Thats already what is happening in the world.
The russians wtfpawned chechnya, China owned Tibet etc nobody is really bitching about it.
Unless your own nation or a strategic ally is attacked the bigger stronger nations can do whatever the fuck they like.

danno
6th April 09, 07:44 AM
It's widely accepted & how they've always done things. The Taliban were against homosexuality and child abuse (sexual) punishing it with, naturally, death. When the Taliban were in power it just went underground, now that friendly ISAF is there we look at each other and say, are they allowed to do that? Mean while they prace around and bugger little boys.

interesting stuff. as far as the koran goes, seems like it really depends on what you want to think it says (as with most interpretation of any religious text, i believe).


Homosexuality Laws in Modern Islamic Countries

Same-sex intercourse carries the death penalty in five officially Muslim nations: Saudi Arabia, Iran, Mauritania, Sudan, and Yemen. [3] It formerly carried the death penalty in Afghanistan under the Taliban, and in Iraq under a 2001 decree by Saddam Hussein. The legal situation in the United Arab Emirates is unclear. In many Muslim nations, such as Bahrain, Qatar, Algeria or the Maldives, homosexuality is punished with jail time, fines or corporal punishment. In some Muslim-majority nations, such as Turkey, Jordan, Egypt, or Mali, same-sex intercourse is not forbidden by law. However, in Egypt gays have been the victims of laws against "morality".

In Saudi Arabia, the maximium punishment for homosexuality is public execution, but the government will use other punishments, i.e. fines, jail time and whipping as alternatives, unless it feels that homosexuals are challenging state authority by engaging in a gay rights movement. [4] Iran is perhaps the nation to execute the largest number of its citizens for homosexuality. Since its Islamic revolution in Iran, the Iranian government has executed more than 4000 people charged with homosexual acts. In Afghanistan after the fall of the Taliban homosexuality went from a capital crime to one that it punished with fines and prison sentence, and a similar situation seems to have occurred in Iraq.

Most international human rights organizations, such as Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International, condemn laws that make homosexual relations between consenting adults a crime. Since 1994 the United Nations Human Rights Committee has also ruled that such laws violated the right to privacy guaranteed in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the International Covent on Civil and Political Rights. However (except for nations such as Turkey that were required to change their laws to be eligible to join the European Union) most Muslim nations insist that such laws are neccesary to preserve Islamic morality and virtue. Of the nations with a majority of Muslim, only Lebanon has an internal effort to legalize homosexuality. However, some Muslims have expressed criticism of the legal sanctions used against homosexuality.

Reasons given by Muslims condemning the executions include: the fact that some legal schools (e.g. Hanafi) regard it as unjustified; the argument that the death penalty is not specified for it in the Qur'an; the idea that the punishment is unduly harsh; and opposition to the idea that the state's laws should be based on religion. The introduction of the AIDS pandemic in the Muslim world has also promoted more discussion about the legal status of homosexuality as the legal sanctions against homosexuality have made it difficult to intiaite any educational programs directed at high risks groups.

While executions and other criminal sanctions curtail any public gay rights movement, it is impractical to give criminal sanctions to all homosexuals living in a Muslim country, and it is common knowledge (to foreigners visiting a Muslim country) that some young Muslim men will experiment with homosexual relations as an outlet to sexual desires that cannot be met in a society where the sexes are often kept segregated. These discreet and casual homosexual relations allow men to engage in premartial sex with a low risk of facing the social or legal sanctions that would occur if they involved in adultery or fornication with a woman that might result in a pregnancy. Most of these men do not consider themsleves to be gay or bisexual.

A related problem to full enforcement of the laws against homosexuality is that while the sexes are often segregated, men are encouraged to developed close friendships with other men, and women are encouraged to develop close friendships with other women. Also, the Islamic law requires a certain number of male and female witnesses to the homosexual act to testify in court. Islam does place a strong value on the right to privacy in the home and thus homosexual relations that occur in private are theoretically outside the bounds of the law, although that is more theory then reality.
Liberal Islamic Stances on Homosexuality

Some self-described liberal Muslims accept and consider homosexuality as natural, regarding these verses as either obsolete in the context of modern society, or point out that the Qu'ran speaks out against homosexual lust, and is silent on homosexual love. However, this position remains highly controversial even amongst liberal movements within Islam, and is considered completely beyond the pale by mainstream Islam [5].

http://www.religionfacts.com/homosexuality/islam.htm

Cullion
6th April 09, 02:18 PM
I do. However to be married to such a man would be insufferable.

So Cullion, do you order your wife around regularly?

There's a subtle line. To a point, I can tell when she wants me to, and I do. There's a line I can sense where I back off. She tries the same with me. It's a battle of wills where as we get older we instinctively sense where the boundaries are before we piss each other off too much.

To quote: 'I knew you were the man I'd marry because you were the first one able to call me on my bullshit, but without ever making me feel denigrated. Every other man in the past was way past either side of the line. Pussy or Tyrant'

Ajamil
6th April 09, 02:51 PM
Even if you had a problem with it, what you gonna do? :-O Me personally? Why I bitch about it on the internet. Are you saying this isn't an effective way to change the world?

I think and try to nail down my own morality and judgements, and then I act on them. It's small and useless, but with everyone doing this, it adds up. Would I be wrong in likening this to Chaos Theory?


Why should they leave?
Where to?
To my country so they can shit it up like they did back home?
Fuck em.
Instead of running be a fucking man and topple your government or be killed in the proces.
I said - or at least meant - the right to leave. Could is different than should. And even then you're right - just because they can leave their country doesn't mean they can enter yours unless you let them. So if a person can leave their country but has nowhere to go to, they're still screwed.


Thats already what is happening in the world.
The russians wtfpawned chechnya, China owned Tibet etc nobody is really bitching about it.
Unless your own nation or a strategic ally is attacked the bigger stronger nations can do whatever the fuck they like.

And they always could. Are we just realizing how nation dynamics work? I was planning on saying something about limited resources and the hopeful eventuality of nations realizing cooperation would benefit all, but I don't agree with that actually. Competition between nations is vital for growth, just like competition between species is vital for evolution (well, not really, but then you end up uselessly defenseless like the birds of paradise with feather displays for mating so elaborate it makes it hard to fly).


Homosexuality Laws in Modern Islamic Countries
That is VERY interesting.

GuiltySpark
6th April 09, 03:36 PM
Why should they leave?
Where to?
To my country so they can shit it up like they did back home?
Fuck em.


The more we help them sort their shit out for themselves the less you will see them trying to escape into your country and my country.
Want less refugees in your hometown? Help them fix their own and give them reasont o stay.



Instead of running be a fucking man and topple your government or be killed in the proces.


What if 50 years ago the allies said this to your country?
"Be a fucking man, you want them out get them out yourselves"





interesting stuff. as far as the koran goes, seems like it really depends on what you want to think it says (as with most interpretation of any religious text, i believe).


If you're a village elder chances are you're the only person in your village that can read. As a village chief even if you couldn't read you could pick up a sears catalogue, tell everyone it's the Koran and make up whatever rules you want.

All religious texts can be widely interrupted to mean whatever the reader wants but in Afghanistan because of the level of education the 'laws of the Koran' are really whatever the fuck the village elder says to a much more frighting degree.

Two of my favorite "koran passages"
-The oldest son no great than 16 in age in each family must go to X compound every Thursday for 'religious training'
-Canadian and American soldiers do not have families. They are created in test tubes. When they die they don't leave behind a wife or kids so it's okay to kill them.

Among the uneducated, whatever the Koran says doesn't really matter
-

Cullion
6th April 09, 05:38 PM
I've gotta say GS, that's one of the dumbest posts I've seen from you, and I mean that with warmth, because I'm used to better.

'We have to re-engineer their culture, because when it fails and produces refugees, we have no choice but to obey some international agreement we didn't get a vote on, and pay welfare for anybody who crosses our borders'

This is a stupid thing to believe. Deeply stupid.

GuiltySpark
6th April 09, 08:43 PM
Here is the thing Cullion, I firmly believe we need to fix Afghanistan. Fix what people have been fucking up for a long time. (including us in the 70's 80's and 90's)
If there is one thing we in the west are good at teaching places like Afghanistan and Africa is our welfare system.
Be lazy and whine about it and we'll give it to you to shut you up and make you happy.
Their happy to take whatever handouts from whomever. This makes it dangerous because it leaves them open to whomever waltzes in. As we've seen in 9/11 it makes for a good mounting base for terrorist attacks.

The way to fix it IMO is to establish a strong economy with a professional and non corrupt police force and military. Part of establishing a professional police/military force is ethics. That is, soldiers who DON'T go into peoples houses and take shit from people or police who don't put up illegal roadblocks to force people using the road to pay them.

The better, stronger, more secure, safer, attractive a country is (for it's popuation) then the less people will want to leave.
In Bosnia/Croatia etc.. the government made it next to impossible to leave because there was nothign thre. People wanted the fuck out of war torn balklands. The government knew that there wouldnt be enough people left to keep the economy going. Now that the country is back onthe mend people aren't as horny to leave.

See where I'm coming from?

Lebell
7th April 09, 04:26 AM
The more we help them sort their shit out for themselves the less you will see them trying to escape into your country and my country.
Want less refugees in your hometown? Help them fix their own and give them reasont o stay.

Thats what i used to think.
Im more cynical, in my world view people are too goddamn lazy to do just that.
They will keep coming for an easy buck instead of doing some actual devellopmentwork in their own countries.



What if 50 years ago the allies said this to your country?
"Be a fucking man, you want them out get them out yourselves"


Fair enough.
You do realise that the allies consisted of: 1USSR who was fighting for their own survival, 2 UK, fighting for their own survival 3 USA fighting japanese for own defensive and jumped in halfway (at best) in europe to prevent communism from spreading any further (own survival).





If you're a village elder chances are you're the only person in your village that can read. As a village chief even if you couldn't read you could pick up a sears catalogue, tell everyone it's the Koran and make up whatever rules you want.

So there are people in charge with an enormous advantage over the rest and they'll give it up jut like that?
People won't because they're assholes, how many schools build by the isaf get torched on a monthly bases?




All religious texts can be widely interrupted to mean whatever the reader wants but in Afghanistan because of the level of education the 'laws of the Koran' are really whatever the fuck the village elder says to a much more frighting degree.

Two of my favorite "koran passages"
-The oldest son no great than 16 in age in each family must go to X compound every Thursday for 'religious training'
-Canadian and American soldiers do not have families. They are created in test tubes. When they die they don't leave behind a wife or kids so it's okay to kill them.

Among the uneducated, whatever the Koran says doesn't really matter
-

Same point as i sated above, the dumb assholes use the Islam as a control device, they are not interested in building up their country, just maintaining their own powerbase.
Same goes for that snake Karzai.

It's like putting a disfunctional trailer trash family in a penthouse and thinking: there, now they have a proper house they'll go and behave like civilised people.

they wont, they just shit up the penthouse and bring the neighbourhood down.

ask any social worker, its virtually impossible to re-educate a whole family, so they focus on the young, the old ones are beyond salvation, how the hell would you translate this to re-educating / causing a mindshift to a whole (religious) society?!

Kein Haar
7th April 09, 07:24 AM
Now Cullion, aren't you for credible colonialism?

Ajamil
7th April 09, 10:22 AM
Thats what i used to think.
Im more cynical, in my world view people are too goddamn lazy to do just that.
They will keep coming for an easy buck instead of doing some actual devellopmentwork in their own countries.
You sound like Rush Limbaugh - and unfortunately it's one of the areas in which I agree with both of you (ironic, considering my social position) - nothing for free was ever valued.


It's like putting a disfunctional trailer trash family in a penthouse and thinking: there, now they have a proper house they'll go and behave like civilised people.

they wont, they just shit up the penthouse and bring the neighbourhood down.
Vedic thought puts huge emphasis on association. Instead of putting the trailer trash in the penthouse, let them come to the gatherings and parties of the people you want them to be like. If they see that all those around them are one way, they will try to change to fit in.

The problem is that the people who are different have to see the other lifestyle as preferrable - with the religious slant, most Islamic nations do NOT have this view.....Well, I can't say that for sure, but does the general idea of what I'm saying make sense?


ask any social worker, its virtually impossible to re-educate a whole family, so they focus on the young, the old ones are beyond salvation, how the hell would you translate this to re-educating / causing a mindshift to a whole (religious) society?!

Be a sneaky bastard, engineer a MASSIVE conspiracy to set up a new caliph, and train this person to interpret the Koran as you want it understood?

ICY
7th April 09, 10:39 AM
What if 50 years ago the allies said this to your country?
"Be a fucking man, you want them out get them out yourselves"

Then they'd probably have said "Get who out?" because 50 years ago, it was 1959.

GuiltySpark
7th April 09, 11:11 AM
Thats what i used to think.
Im more cynical, in my world view people are too goddamn lazy to do just that.
They will keep coming for an easy buck instead of doing some actual devellopmentwork in their own countries.

Yea, I'm torn between wanting to help them and saying you're fucking lazy piss off.
We're not helping though, we're making things worse by throwing money and unwarranted praise around.




Fair enough.
You do realise that the allies consisted of: 1USSR who was fighting for their own survival, 2 UK, fighting for their own survival 3 USA fighting japanese for own defensive and jumped in halfway (at best) in europe to prevent communism from spreading any further (own survival).

Yup. World powers don't give a fuck for anyone but themselves. The only time people joined the fight was survial except maybe Canada who joined out of a feeling of duty/loyalty to the UK.




So there are people in charge with an enormous advantage over the rest and they'll give it up jut like that?
People won't because they're assholes, how many schools build by the isaf get torched on a monthly bases?


You're right they won't give it up easily. One way to take that power away from them though is to educate them and give them the power of choice.



Same point as i sated above, the dumb assholes use the Islam as a control device, they are not interested in building up their country, just maintaining their own powerbase.
So get rid of Islam huh?
I hear ya ;)

ICY
7th April 09, 11:34 AM
Do you really think the mission will be complete when (not if) we leave in 2011?

GuiltySpark
7th April 09, 12:24 PM
No way.

Unfucking Afghanistan is going to take more than 7 years. Maybe 30 years?

Only the Canadians are pulling out in 2011, the US is putting more troops on the ground (which is what is needed since security is a major selling point).

Besides I have a feeling that when the Canadian government suggests we're ceasing combat operations it doesn't mean all Canadian soldiers will return home. I think it means we won't have a formed battle group of Infantry Artillery Armored Engineers etc.. doing typical patroling and such, rather we will have all those elements acting as instructors and teachers.
Where a platoon of 40 Canadains may have patrolled an area those 40 will be broken up into groups of 10 and attached to 100 Afghan army where we act as teachers and shit.

So (I think, could be wrong) it's a game of semantics. We're not doing combat operations persay but 'supporting' which really means combat operations with less people.
We need to stop treating the army and police like children and praising them like they found the cure for cancer when they tie their shoes right.

Tough love.
http://www.mywarvideo.com/play.php?vid=132
what a jacking.


And the Americans are currently making a super-base the size of a small city, their going to be there a while.

Lebell
7th April 09, 01:12 PM
You're right they won't give it up easily. One way to take that power away from them though is to educate them and give them the power of choice.

Education and propaganda.
Over here in Lolland and in the rest of western europe we as indigeonous people get told via media and politicans that we should learn more about islamis culture. (LOL islamic culture!)
I say: fuck off, they need to learn about US.not the other way around.
They have more to gain if they truely understand how we live.
In short this is the image of westeners amonst the average islamic hillbilly: all white women are whores, we have no honesty, we lack every basic hygiene etc etc.
If you would show them documentaries mad especially for those guys about life, history and culture in the west then you have a realistic (but still small) change they change their mind.
The biggest things missing in their cultures is nuance and relativating.

For example there are still places in Egypt where they celebrate the capture of king Louis during a crusade in the 13th century.

In Damascus people still tell the stories about sultan Baibars and Zenghi.

Also take into consideration that in Islam there are two houses: The house of Islam, and the house of war.
House of islam: muslims, the righteous people.
House of war: people who are jews christians (people of the book) and heathens (pretty much everybody else) so basically they're people who arent muslim (yet).

The source of the current fanatics can be traced back to a fundamentalist writer who got executed by the Egyptian government in i believe it was 1966.
He was the direct inspiration for people like Bin Laden.
His name was Waqf if i remember correctly.

He despised everything about the west and urged muslims not to use the salaam aleikum greeting as the greeting of peace should be kept amongst muslims, not quffars.

He was also a source for the brotherhood of muslims.

Ajamil
7th April 09, 02:03 PM
Education and propaganda.
Over here in Lolland and in the rest of western europe we as indigeonous people get told via media and politicans that we should learn more about islamis culture. (LOL islamic culture!)
I say: fuck off, they need to learn about US.not the other way around.
There certainly should be an exchange of understanding, so if they won't reciprocate (you've already made the first gesture of goodwill) then I agree.


all white women are whoresAnecdotal support: My mother in Turkey was at some Air Force event, and her arranged "date" for the night was a nice local man. He simply had to be corrected - firmly - when he started telling people that he was going to sleep with her that night because "she was American, and they do that."

Cullion
7th April 09, 02:03 PM
Here is the thing Cullion, I firmly believe we need to fix Afghanistan. Fix what people have been fucking up for a long time. (including us in the 70's 80's and 90's)

By 'us', you mean the Soviets?



If there is one thing we in the west are good at teaching places like Afghanistan and Africa is our welfare system.
Be lazy and whine about it and we'll give it to you to shut you up and make you happy.

That's what scares me. Only an extremely advanced economy can shoulder the burden of welfare systems like ours, and look at the problems it's causing us. Afghanistan? Forget about it.



Their happy to take whatever handouts from whomever. This makes it dangerous because it leaves them open to whomever waltzes in. As we've seen in 9/11 it makes for a good mounting base for terrorist attacks.

Um.. dude, that was mostly 'allied' dictatorships like Saudi Arabia, and European 'Liberal' basket cases like the UK.



The way to fix it IMO is to establish a strong economy with a professional and non corrupt police force and military. Part of establishing a professional police/military force is ethics. That is, soldiers who DON'T go into peoples houses and take shit from people or police who don't put up illegal roadblocks to force people using the road to pay them.

The better, stronger, more secure, safer, attractive a country is (for it's popuation) then the less people will want to leave.

Another way to make people not want to leave is to make it clear to them they will be turned back at the border if they try to sneak into anywhere else, and the few who get through will not be getting any free shit at the expense of the taxpayers there.



In Bosnia/Croatia etc.. the government made it next to impossible to leave because there was nothign thre. People wanted the fuck out of war torn balklands. The government knew that there wouldnt be enough people left to keep the economy going. Now that the country is back onthe mend people aren't as horny to leave.

See where I'm coming from?

Yes, and for the reasons above I still think you're wrong.

AAAhmed46
7th April 09, 08:14 PM
Education and propaganda.
Over here in Lolland and in the rest of western europe we as indigeonous people get told via media and politicans that we should learn more about islamis culture. (LOL islamic culture!)
I say: fuck off, they need to learn about US.not the other way around.
They have more to gain if they truely understand how we live.
In short this is the image of westeners amonst the average islamic hillbilly: all white women are whores, we have no honesty, we lack every basic hygiene etc etc.
If you would show them documentaries mad especially for those guys about life, history and culture in the west then you have a realistic (but still small) change they change their mind.
The biggest things missing in their cultures is nuance and relativating.

For example there are still places in Egypt where they celebrate the capture of king Louis during a crusade in the 13th century.

In Damascus people still tell the stories about sultan Baibars and Zenghi.

Also take into consideration that in Islam there are two houses: The house of Islam, and the house of war.
House of islam: muslims, the righteous people.
House of war: people who are jews christians (people of the book) and heathens (pretty much everybody else) so basically they're people who arent muslim (yet).

The source of the current fanatics can be traced back to a fundamentalist writer who got executed by the Egyptian government in i believe it was 1966.
He was the direct inspiration for people like Bin Laden.
His name was Waqf if i remember correctly.

He despised everything about the west and urged muslims not to use the salaam aleikum greeting as the greeting of peace should be kept amongst muslims, not quffars.

He was also a source for the brotherhood of muslims.


Yep, they have a screwed up view of the west.

IN an interview with the dude who made 'supersize me' he talks about how he met a morrocan family, living in a one bedroom shack, their one luxury was sattilite t.v. Guess what the one american channel was? FOX news.

Reza Aslan in a debates(surprisingly friendly) with Irshad manji, said that when he was in Iran, a man took him to the side and asked "are you from america?" When Reza said "yes" the man asked a question: "How is it like living in a theocracy"

So, yes, many are totally unaware of how life is like in the west. But the question is...where and who? Urban centers have more variation in their opinions. But yes, there is gross, gross misinformation about the west.

Remember John Walker Lindh? An article in GQ talked about how he tried to get everyone to pray five times a day and join him in prayers when he was in yemen, but most of his co students didn't give a damn.


Dar al Islam(the house of islam)

And dar al harb(The abode of war)

Is a concept that has sneaked into islamic orthodoxy, but cannot still be considered a mainstream concept. For instance, whether or not the people of the book(jews, christians, later on zorosters were considered people of the book) are considered believers or not is something that is under debate.

The egyption Sayyid Qutb's writings greatly influenced bin laden and his ilk, but also remember, Qutb was actually considered a reformer at his time. Oh his reforms were very anti-western, but still a reformer. Then he was thrown in prison.


But at the same time, Mohammed Asad and other 'pro-intellectaul' islamic movements took root. it seemed asad's views were slowing down in the nineties, but now....im seeing his name mentioned once again with great respect.

There is more hope then you realize among us towel headed folk.

AAAhmed46
7th April 09, 08:39 PM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/92/Shewolf.jpg

HAs anyone actually seen that movie?

AAAhmed46
7th April 09, 08:49 PM
Taking it out of context. In this case it's not a matter of ordering someone around.
Women are property. Men own women. They've been sold in the market.
It's common to beat the living fuck out of them.
We had a medic who had to take a man (who beat his wife unconscious) and explain to him which hole to put it in. He was beating his wife because she wouldn't give him a son, she wouldn't get pregnant. The dumb fuck grew up 'practicing' fucking guys in the ass and couldn't figure out why his wife wasn't getting pregnant.

Some of the comments here contain the same level of stupid.

Ah, arabs and gay sex, wait...are you in afganistan or Iraq?

You'd think they would question the existence of another hole.

AAAhmed46
7th April 09, 08:50 PM
The thing is, ordering women around is for relationship-noobs.

Women have weak points: maternal feelings, guilt trips and chronic insecurity about how they look and if men find them attractive.

Once you can play those buttons you'll notice a powershift in your relationship.

I discuss this into greather lenght in my book thats being published soon: 'Psychological pimphand: how to keep your bitch in check.'

Tell me more!!!!

HappyOldGuy
7th April 09, 10:02 PM
HAs anyone actually seen that movie?

Yes. Don't.

AAAhmed46
7th April 09, 10:08 PM
Too late.

ICY
8th April 09, 12:21 AM
Besides I have a feeling that when the Canadian government suggests we're ceasing combat operations it doesn't mean all Canadian soldiers will return home.

[email protected] idea. That would be a wonderful way for Harper to lose the following election.

Feryk
8th April 09, 02:21 PM
HAs anyone actually seen that movie?

Yes. Although when I saw it, it was titled 'Ilsa: Queen of the Nazi Love Camp'. Didn't end up being what I thought it would. And it was bad, if I recall.

According the IMDB, there was also a sequel: 'Ilsa: Harem Keeper of the Oil Sheiks'

ICY
8th April 09, 03:01 PM
That actress was also in this movie:

http://www.impawards.com/1975/posters/black_gestapo.jpg

Lebell
10th April 09, 09:06 AM
Yep, they have a screwed up view of the west.

IN an interview with the dude who made 'supersize me' he talks about how he met a morrocan family, living in a one bedroom shack, their one luxury was sattilite t.v. Guess what the one american channel was? FOX news.

American tv weirds me out.
Every 6 or 7 minutes there's commercial breaks, things keep flashing in your screen when you try to watch a program.
As a european i consider myself to be in between, not American,not nearby eastern.
I can relate and understand to both sides.







Dar al Islam(the house of islam)

And dar al harb(The abode of war)

Is a concept that has sneaked into islamic orthodoxy, but cannot still be considered a mainstream concept. For instance, whether or not the people of the book(jews, christians, later on zorosters were considered people of the book) are considered believers or not is something that is under debate.


You'll have to forgive me for raping your language.
Those were the terms i was looking for.


The egyption Sayyid Qutb's writings greatly influenced bin laden and his ilk, but also remember, Qutb was actually considered a reformer at his time. Oh his reforms were very anti-western, but still a reformer. Then he was thrown in prison.

That was the name i was looking for!
How the hell did i came up with Waqf?!
Im learning basic arabic and starting to mix up words.
Oh well, at least i got the alphabet in good order.
I think the guy who came up with arabic writing was a sadist, letters keep changing, not fair!

By the way, you don't happen to know a youtubechannel where they air childrensprograms in arabic? (masr)
THat way i could learn prnounciation and wrting it better.




There is more hope then you realize among us towel headed folk.

Why? Are you infadels finally acknowledge Jesus as your true Lord and Saviour?
:-p

AAAhmed46
10th April 09, 09:00 PM
American tv weirds me out.
Every 6 or 7 minutes there's commercial breaks, things keep flashing in your screen when you try to watch a program.
As a european i consider myself to be in between, not American,not nearby eastern.
I can relate and understand to both sides.
Reza Aslan had a similarly funny moment as well in iran.

Fact is, they see pat robertson, and they freak out.







You'll have to forgive me for raping your language.
Those were the terms i was looking for.

NOt my language. Im pakistani.



That was the name i was looking for!
How the hell did i came up with Waqf?!
Im learning basic arabic and starting to mix up words.
Oh well, at least i got the alphabet in good order.
I think the guy who came up with arabic writing was a sadist, letters keep changing, not fair!

By the way, you don't happen to know a youtubechannel where they air childrensprograms in arabic? (masr)
THat way i could learn prnounciation and wrting it better.

I don't know of such a youtube channel, but if you find it, send it to me, id love to learn arabic myself.




Why? Are you infadels finally acknowledge Jesus as your true Lord and Saviour?
:-p

When he comes again :)

GuiltySpark
10th April 09, 11:41 PM
NOt my language. Im pakistani.


How do you feel about the Taliban connection between Afghanistan-Pakistan?
The Taliban safe havens in Pakistan,many of the Taliban insurgents caught in Afghanistan being Pakistan nationals. The large amounts of IED Components in Afghanistan with "Made In Pakistan" stamped on them.

Not trying to point fingers or be disrespectful ( I enjoy your posts) but I'm curious how a Canadian-Pakistan citizen living in Canada views the stuff going on.

Does the Pakistani community around you generally condem whats going on, do they think big fucking deal or disbelieve in the connection?

ISAF (Read USA) is putting a lot of pressure on the Pakistan government and military to chase Taliban in the border region but I can see why Pakistan wouldn't really give a shit about it. Their up in the mountains pretty much keeping to themselves, not really threatening the more populated areas of Pakistan, why should they bother with the Taliban.

AAAhmed46
10th April 09, 11:54 PM
Ive talked to two pathans about it, one guy who lived there, another who didn't.

Both agreed alot of it is "tribe wars' But both also acknowledge the religious undertone. The guy who lived there said that innocent muslims are deemed apostates because the villiage sheikh said so, and guess what? People die. He had a very negative view of them. Talked of how they made life hard.



THe other guy also had a negative view, but seemed to deem it more as tribal islamic law then taliban per say, downplayed the afganistan connection. He did acknowledge that they have a powerful desire to return pakistan to the middle ages with thier view of islam.
Thats literally what he said. This man has a long beard and wears a turban.

Whenever i try to talk about this, to get information from a native pakistani standpoint, people are not comfortable talking about it. Im surprised.

Ive met enough who more or less view them as bad.but i have met many who totally deny it, saying their just stupid village rednecks and nothing more, or even some who think it's 'america looking for a connection so they can bomb pakistan' some even say they(the Extremist tribes) are 'misunderstood'
Yes, some stupid opinions, along with rational ones.

Regardless, they all seem to agree that the ethnic aspect to this is not talked about in western media(for good reason, would take a great deal of explaining)
There is also a consensus that the govenment really isn't really interested in fighting terrorism. Oh they don't want a global calphate, thats for sure. Pakistani politicians care first and foremost for their wallets and purses. India was blessed enought to have politicians honest enough to atleast make the country better, or maybe a strong india was better for them. Pakistan has never had the luck to gain such politicians. Dirty to the core. In every way. This is Pakistani democracy.

Want to see extremism rise? Have a democratic pakistan. Even a shitty guy like musharaf, who also cared to line his pockets atleast gave the country stability and a growing economy.

EDIT: ANd when i say democracy in pakistan is good for extremists, im not talking about them getting elected, if that were true, then Bhutto would not have been elected. Not her or many others. Rather im saying politicians take advantage of the riff raff.

Many blame Zardari. I do, i told people on this forum that supporting Bhutto is a mistake, that pakistan was not ready for a democracy. Like it or not, as shitty and corrupt as musharaf was, he kept these fuckers down.

Pakistani, maybe in a few years can be a democracy, but right now, structurally it won't hold.

AAAhmed46
10th April 09, 11:56 PM
Forgot to add:

My conclusion?

Honestly, i can't tell you what pakistani's think because they all have a different take on it. Pakistani politics is it's own monster and it confuses the fuck out of me.

AAAhmed46
11th April 09, 12:03 AM
Eh...sorry about my wierd stream of consiousness post. But the topic got me ranting.

Lebell
11th April 09, 12:34 PM
Urdu is the major language in Pakistan right?

I lived near the Pakistani border and in anarea where there were relatively a lot of ' Khans' . ;-)
Families from Kashmir etc.

I can tell you from first and that Indian officials are corrupt as hell too.
One time we were caught for driving a motorcycle without a license, the cop walked with me to a store so i could change my 500 Rp bill into smaller bills so i could bribe him for 200 Rp.
Tea money.

It's pretty good as long as you're the guy with the money.
If you're poor you're at the mercy of the little hitlers who are supposed to be policemen protecting all citizens.

I remember an incident where my assistent's brother got into a fight with a policeman's kid.
The policeman arrested his brother and 3 cops gave him the beating of a lifetime in a holding cell.

AAAhmed46
11th April 09, 10:38 PM
Urdu is the major language in Pakistan right?

I lived near the Pakistani border and in anarea where there were relatively a lot of ' Khans' . ;-)
Families from Kashmir etc.

I can tell you from first and that Indian officials are corrupt as hell too.
One time we were caught for driving a motorcycle without a license, the cop walked with me to a store so i could change my 500 Rp bill into smaller bills so i could bribe him for 200 Rp.
Tea money.

It's pretty good as long as you're the guy with the money.
If you're poor you're at the mercy of the little hitlers who are supposed to be policemen protecting all citizens.

I remember an incident where my assistent's brother got into a fight with a policeman's kid.
The policeman arrested his brother and 3 cops gave him the beating of a lifetime in a holding cell.

.....this description matches everything i have seen and heard. When i visited pakistan.


Yep Urdu is the major language.


So india is the same still huh? well atleast he economy is going good.

Lebell
16th April 09, 09:57 AM
as far as im concerned everybody in india is fucking crazy.

AAAhmed46
19th April 09, 07:46 PM
Why the india hate?

Shawarma
20th April 09, 07:30 AM
Indians killed General Custer. You can't trust the motherfuckers.

Lebell
20th April 09, 03:23 PM
i dont hate india, but its a very tiresome country to live in.
even the simplest things take ages to do.

f4n4n
20th April 09, 03:45 PM
Hey it just took !2! weeks to get a chair in our room here in SP... that is taking your time.

Lebell
21st April 09, 06:44 AM
oh thats the same speed as in india.

like indian ten minutes.
if someone there says, ill be there in 10 minutes you can easily take a shower, take a nap, go to the store, redecorate the living room and paint your house before they'll be there.

Ajamil
21st April 09, 08:02 AM
Indians do seem to run on a different idea of time. I suppose when your Bible says everything is repeated in cycles trillions of years long, being punctual just isn't worth the hassle.

socratic
21st April 09, 08:39 AM
Fun fact! URDU IS HINDI. THEY'RE THE SAME GODDAMN LANGUAGE. THE ONLY DIFFERENCE IS URDU IS WRITTEN IN ARABIC.

mrm1775
21st April 09, 10:39 PM
Indians do seem to run on a different idea of time. I suppose when your Bible says everything is repeated in cycles trillions of years long, being punctual just isn't worth the hassle.
Seems to be that way throughout that part of the world. Iraqis are notorious for it. The word "soon" generally means "at some future, unspecified time, when I get around to it." "Yesterday" could mean a week ago.

Similar attitude with numbers. "A hundred" usually means any number over twenty. Different strokes...

f4n4n
21st April 09, 11:36 PM
Yeah I have some serious trouble with this kind of attitude(since I am the punctual correct German). When somebody here says 1 pm don't count on it being before 3 pm, if at all and if they say anything like 'we will do this and that' and set a date more than one day from now you can be almost certain that it won't happen.

Lebell
23rd April 09, 06:48 AM
Fun fact! URDU IS HINDI. THEY'RE THE SAME GODDAMN LANGUAGE. THE ONLY DIFFERENCE IS URDU IS WRITTEN IN ARABIC.

Ehr...are you a 100% sure on that?
it doesnt differ that much but as far as they told me it's different.
i guess it's like dutch-german.

some 40-50% of the words are the same but grammar is significantly different.

F4n4n,

what would you say as in dutch-german? 40% of the words are the same right?

f4n4n
23rd April 09, 10:42 AM
Well depends, if you talk spelling, they are quite close (I can read it with a little thinking), if you talk pronunciation it depends which dialects you compare, there are some that are close and there are some where I would consider them two unrelated languages.
But I guess 40% is quite accurate.

Phrost
29th November 09, 03:39 PM
http://allecto.wordpress.com/2008/10/15/objects-in-space-black-masculinity-through-the-paradigm-of-whitemale-lust/

This thread was linked in the comments section of the blog.

Somehow they got the impression that we hate women.

Shawarma
29th November 09, 03:46 PM
Hate women? Us? Just because we have an active pro-beating your wife thread? Perish the thought!

Cullion
29th November 09, 04:01 PM
Lebell beats them because he loves them too much.

Lebell
29th November 09, 04:13 PM
my bet is someone took on the name of Brenda and ratted sociocide out...

*cough*

how veerd...

Lebell
29th November 09, 04:24 PM
god that brenda sure sounds like a saucy little slut...

Harpy
29th November 09, 05:02 PM
Somehow they got the impression that we hate women.

I don't seem to hear anyone refuting it.

Lebell
29th November 09, 05:23 PM
i love you lily, god bless your vagina.

littleoldme
29th November 09, 05:34 PM
I think it's great that so many non-Afghani men are so concerned about the plight of Afghan women

If you are really concerned you may with to support RAWA, a feminist project working with raped and and abused Afghani women and children

Their website is down today but the US website is up and running here

http://www.rawa.us/index.htm

HappyOldGuy
29th November 09, 06:06 PM
I don't seem to hear anyone refuting it.

I do in fact hate my grandmother on my fathers side and my high school biology teacher.

Lebell
29th November 09, 06:08 PM
I think it's great that so many non-Afghani men are so concerned about the plight of Afghan women

If you are really concerned you may with to support RAWA, a feminist project working with raped and and abused Afghani women and children

Their website is down today but the US website is up and running here

http://www.rawa.us/index.htm

yeah i think we should round up our uhm..less succesfull men and send em over there to show afghani women what REAL men are like.
sorta intercultural dialogue with sexorgans.

socratic
29th November 09, 06:21 PM
Ehr...are you a 100% sure on that?
it doesnt differ that much but as far as they told me it's different.
i guess it's like dutch-german.

some 40-50% of the words are the same but grammar is significantly different.

F4n4n,

what would you say as in dutch-german? 40% of the words are the same right?What one of my teachers told me in my "Language in Asia" class. Could be wrong though I guess. The real difference I'm told is their 'source' language for loanwords. It's Arabic in Urdu and I think Sanskrit for Hindi. Urdu is also the language of Bollywood, but Hindi speakers seem to have no trouble with it.

socratic
29th November 09, 06:36 PM
I was studying a video of an Afghani girl who was an exchange-student in Japan for a year or two. She was an orphan. She had a very happy existence in Japan judging by the footage and spoke highly of her time there.

It makes me sad to think she's either heavily censored, dead or some other horrible and likely fate now that she's back in the Old Country.

Sun Wukong
29th November 09, 07:13 PM
ZXLINh1EGcA

Feryk
30th November 09, 04:10 PM
I was studying a video of an Afghani girl who was an exchange-student in Japan for a year or two. She was an orphan. She had a very happy existence in Japan judging by the footage and spoke highly of her time there.

It makes me sad to think she's either heavily censored, dead or some other horrible and likely fate now that she's back in the Old Country.

Probably forced to marry, and spitting out children, while ducking her husband's rage. Oh, and not reading. Especially that.

Harpy
30th November 09, 04:19 PM
A Lebanese friend of mine told me about her high school friend. A 16 year old Afghani girl who was taken 'back home' to marry a 52 year old friend of her father's. This was to remove the shame from her family name due to her older sister running off with an Australian boy.

Feryk
30th November 09, 04:26 PM
Older sister got the last laugh on that one.

socratic
3rd December 09, 05:17 AM
Probably forced to marry, and spitting out children, while ducking her husband's rage. Oh, and not reading. Especially that.
She could speak near fluently and read Kanji. Such academic prowess, two whole years of cultural immersion and skill-learning, gone because she had the misfortune of being born in Afghanistan. :( :( :( :(

Her host-mother in Japan was an aging widow with no children who came to relish the company and saw the Afghani girl (an orphan) as her own child. :( :( :( :( :(

The last thing she said was how living in Japan had taught her the preciousness of peace and the value of modern technology she had never had access to like lightbulbs. :( :( :(

I'd show you the video but the Japanese Broadcasting Agency (Nihonhousoukyoukai or NHK for short) doesn't seem to upload its videos to youtube apparently.

Lebell
3rd December 09, 05:29 AM
meh i dont feel sorry for her.
those arab chicks get moustaches as soon as they hit 30.
and whats that high pitch sound they make with their tongues? ' ululululululululululu' or something.

i can imagine me being married with a arab chick:' lebell, when will you buy me new furniture?'
'woman, im not made outta money these are just fine! off to the kitchen wench!'
' o rlly? lulululululululululuululul'
'ah geesh...stop it..'
' lulululululululululululululululu'
*2 hours later*
'lulululululululululul...'
' allright allright !!!we'll go to the goddamn ikea! get ur coat!'

socratic
3rd December 09, 05:45 AM
Hahaha, you haven't realised what the application of the 'ululululu' is. Take a close look at how they're tongues are moving when they ullulate and then imagine their lips are wrapped around a penis. Knowing you, you'll probably imagine your own lips wrapped around a penis (probably yours) but try for a second to just imagine how awesome arab chicks clearly are at head.

Lebell
3rd December 09, 06:44 AM
i dont care, a blowjob wont last forever so shuving your dick in their mouths will only temporarely shut them up.
long term solutions plz.

no seriously, when i was younger i dated a filthy rich lebanese chick.
oh god she whined so much, didt like to be alone etc.
too much cultural differences.
and also she was worshipping the cameljocky and i worship the undead jew.
just doesnt mix.

Feryk
3rd December 09, 07:00 PM
She could speak near fluently and read Kanji. Such academic prowess, two whole years of cultural immersion and skill-learning, gone because she had the misfortune of being born in Afghanistan. :( :( :( :(

Her host-mother in Japan was an aging widow with no children who came to relish the company and saw the Afghani girl (an orphan) as her own child. :( :( :( :( :(

The last thing she said was how living in Japan had taught her the preciousness of peace and the value of modern technology she had never had access to like lightbulbs. :( :( :(

I'd show you the video but the Japanese Broadcasting Agency (Nihonhousoukyoukai or NHK for short) doesn't seem to upload its videos to youtube apparently.

I knew a girl who was 2nd generation Afghani. Her parents were under strong cultural pressure to send her 'home' to marry. She had a university degree, was extremely intelligent, and not interested at all.

She married a guy she knew in university. He was Indian, and had an arranged marriage that he was running from too. The wedding was a tension filled affair, but in the end, both immediate families shut their holes and went to the wedding. She's had a couple of kids since then - and I think has been mostly happy.

Her family has been all but excommunicated from the local Afghani population, though.

socratic
3rd December 09, 07:18 PM
You don't need friends who want you to send your daughter back to Rape McExplosion town to marry some fucked-in-the-head family friend.

I've heard miaikekkon (arranged marriages) still happen sometimes in Japan or even say the American-Japanese community.

Edit: I bet this chick was super hot, right?

AAAhmed46
4th December 09, 03:04 AM
I knew a girl who was 2nd generation Afghani. Her parents were under strong cultural pressure to send her 'home' to marry. She had a university degree, was extremely intelligent, and not interested at all.

She married a guy she knew in university. He was Indian, and had an arranged marriage that he was running from too. The wedding was a tension filled affair, but in the end, both immediate families shut their holes and went to the wedding. She's had a couple of kids since then - and I think has been mostly happy.

Her family has been all but excommunicated from the local Afghani population, though.

All too common. Which is funny because Bilal, one of Mohammad's closest companions married out of his race as well, and the prophet's last sermon was on racism.

My own parents, while wouldn't exactly go balistic, want me to marry a pakistnai girl. Honestly, i doubt id have anything in common with most pakistani girls. Unless they watch anime and do martial arts.

While there isn't dating due to pre-marital sex, marriage should be very free, woman have the ability to turn down suitors. My mom turned down two before settling with my father. Chaperoned meetings help decide whether or not they'll go through with it. If they don't like eachother, they simply look for another man/woman.



I've heard miaikekkon (arranged marriages) still happen sometimes in Japan or even say the American-Japanese community.

Heard something similar. Had no actual soarces to back it up though.

Anyone find any?

TheMightyMcClaw
4th December 09, 11:17 PM
Here's a question for you all to ponder:
Has Islam, in it's most barbaric and oppressive forms (ie, not the Muslim feminists who were handing out fliers on U of M's campus) simply not evolved in the past 1000 years, or has it actually devolved into an even more barbaric, oppressive system?

danno
4th December 09, 11:45 PM
well, i was just reading the other day about how creationism is on the rise in islam, even though evolution is compatible with the koran. basically a few people have decided it's the way to go and the idea is spreading very quickly.

Ajamil
5th December 09, 12:50 AM
You imply a standard path and progression, but aside from that Islam certainly has changed. I think I understand what you mean by devolve, and I would say no. It hasn't gone backwards, but it has adapted to modern pressures by redeveloping a violent extension.

socratic
5th December 09, 02:46 AM
Here's a question for you all to ponder:
Has Islam, in it's most barbaric and oppressive forms (ie, not the Muslim feminists who were handing out fliers on U of M's campus) simply not evolved in the past 1000 years, or has it actually devolved into an even more barbaric, oppressive system?De-evolved. Wahhabism started in the 1800s and big intellectual figures in the "What the fuck!?" levels of extreme Islam tend to be either in the late 1800s or throughout the 1900s. Level heads prevail(ed) elsewhere/elsewhen and probably even in the (now) more barbarous places.

Current crazy Iran was like the 1960s, wasn't it?

Ahmed could tell you more but I'm pretty sure there were several guys who literally took a look around (Al-Qutb and Khomeini for example) and said "You guys are getting too progressive. REGRESSION TIME! WE HAVE T3H R34L!"

Lebell
5th December 09, 06:16 AM
Islam isnt reacting to modern pressions, its creating them.
If you look at Islam from a theological point of view it even makes less sense then xtian theology, now you have guys like Luxenberger who make a verry good case in proving that whole parts of the qu'ran are poorly translated n.t. texts and the theology doesnt hold up.

everyone with some islamic studies background knows (but usually avoids the subject like the plague) that allah does not mean god.
look up the word for god and look up allah.
two diferent things, theologically seen allah is likely to be a name derived from a local meccan pagan god, and the name for God has been incorrectly translated.

the same thing goes for the infamous devils verses, the text was supposedly given to muhammad via gabriel, then turns out to be given by the shaitan, a second revelation follows, a correction if you like.

the problem is: the devils verses came through so the prophet was under influence from the devil at some point.
who says its not the case with more verses?

eventhough most muslims dont like the idea and start screaming blasphemy, its known amongst scolars that the qu'ran has been tinkered with at least as much as the bible, if not more.

in modern times we get all these pesky new technologies we can use to examine old texts and these things are being discovered.
due to its flawed construction islam either has to reform or sticks to its old routine and adoptig a hostile attitude towards science etc.

it also has to do with the history of the arab nations and the tight social structures they're from.
you dont admit to mistakes, and you're used to follow the rest of your family, village, nation etc.
don't question the rules.

Cullion
5th December 09, 08:21 AM
You don't need friends who want you to send your daughter back to Rape McExplosion town to marry some fucked-in-the-head family friend.

No, the entire population of Rape McExplosion town should be given free housing and a welfare check to live right next to you. So you can teach them about liberal democracy.

Ajamil
5th December 09, 11:55 AM
Islam isnt reacting to modern pressions, its creating them.
You don't think it's both? Do you think it's possible for a group to exist within the world community and affect them without being affected themselves?

If you look at Islam from a theological point of view it even makes less sense then xtian theology, now you have guys like Luxenberger who make a verry good case in proving that whole parts of the qu'ran are poorly translated n.t. texts and the theology doesnt hold up.
How does internal theological consistency matter when talking about whether or not Islam has been progressive, regressive, or stagnant in terms of violence and conservative ideals?

Shawarma
5th December 09, 12:06 PM
Lebell: I have heard the claim that the Muslim god was named Allah simply because there happened to already be a God with that name around already before. Is it true, however, that modern Arab Christians also refer to their deity as Allah? (al-ilah)

Lebell
5th December 09, 12:26 PM
You don't think it's both? Do you think it's possible for a group to exist within the world community and affect them without being affected themselves?

Good point, it goes two ways imo.
but the important part is the inability of a lot of Islamic communities to deal with the social changes.
This far there hasnt been a significant modernation like xtianity went through.
a big difference is that the xtans had the catholic church to agitate against, whereas the islamic dogmatism seems to be intwined with social pressure and honour and all that.




How does internal theological consistency matter when talking about whether or not Islam has been progressive, regressive, or stagnant in terms of violence and conservative ideals?

see the above.
the official point of view in most denominations within islam agree one should take the ' advice' or guidelines (sura means depiction) in the quran literally.
so its a never ending loop: the qurasn is the ultimate word of God, but science advances and things are being discovered that contradict certain pieces within the quran (go read bout Luxenberger a german lebanese dude, articles on the internet) but everyone is trained to not question the holy book.

i believe most muslims understand that some things within hadith and sharia are rubbish and not in line with what their prophets overall message was, but dare not say it up loud cos of the enormous peer pressure within islam.
which is more about arabic traditional culture then it has to do with the theology of islam.
this is me speaking as an outsider.
im curious what someone like ahmed has to say about that.

Lebell
5th December 09, 12:30 PM
Lebell: I have heard the claim that the Muslim god was named Allah simply because there happened to already be a God with that name around already before. Is it true, however, that modern Arab Christians also refer to their deity as Allah? (al-ilah)

yeah things evolve.
i mean salaam aleikhum used to be a xtian greeting, but the muslims incorparated it.
if im not mistaken Jesus told the Emmaus travellers to greet a person with ' peace be upon you ' when you enter his house.

i dont care how they call him right now, im more interested in what hints they are for the islamic theological devellopment.

one of the funniest things imo is the cleansing.
the prophet wasnt al mr nice guy n shit so theologically they had an issue.
how to solve this, how to explain this?
well they came up with a version where Muhammad stops being a human and becomes sort off divine, a ' cleansing' by God himself.
Not unlike the spiritus sanctum with Jesus.
and problem is solved.

meataxe
6th December 09, 11:11 PM
Here's a question for you all to ponder:
Has Islam, in it's most barbaric and oppressive forms (ie, not the Muslim feminists who were handing out fliers on U of M's campus) simply not evolved in the past 1000 years, or has it actually devolved into an even more barbaric, oppressive system?

One stat I heard was that Islam is the same approximate age now as Christianity was during the Inquisition.

Hardly enough data to pull a solid conclusion from, but it gives some perspective.

AAAhmed46
7th December 09, 03:07 PM
Hahaha, you haven't realised what the application of the 'ululululu' is. Take a close look at how they're tongues are moving when they ullulate and then imagine their lips are wrapped around a penis. Knowing you, you'll probably imagine your own lips wrapped around a penis (probably yours) but try for a second to just imagine how awesome arab chicks clearly are at head.

Great to know im not alone in this thought...

Honestly though, it's mostly Iraqi chicks that do that.

AAAhmed46
7th December 09, 03:11 PM
well, i was just reading the other day about how creationism is on the rise in islam, even though evolution is compatible with the koran. basically a few people have decided it's the way to go and the idea is spreading very quickly.

Yes and know. The quran is different from the bible in the fact it's not a text that is composed historically or like a book of history. It's pretty vague in terms of time, place, even historical figures. It deliberately takes the approach of literature, the story of adam and eve is not matter of fact but filled with theme and allegory. If it was meant to be taken literally why is it told like literature, a parable? But now there is a surge of hardcore conservatism, much like evangelical Christianity. Hence the rise in creationism.

Hell if im not mistaken; many parts of the bible are like this as well!

AAAhmed46
7th December 09, 03:15 PM
Here's a question for you all to ponder:
Has Islam, in it's most barbaric and oppressive forms (ie, not the Muslim feminists who were handing out fliers on U of M's campus) simply not evolved in the past 1000 years, or has it actually devolved into an even more barbaric, oppressive system?

Both. Literally both. In some ways muslims do pre-islamic costoms and beliefs such as what they have on woman(not the covering....exactly) In some ways they just don't want to change.

AAAhmed46
7th December 09, 03:20 PM
Good point, it goes two ways imo.
but the important part is the inability of a lot of Islamic communities to deal with the social changes.
This far there hasnt been a significant modernation like xtianity went through.
a big difference is that the xtans had the catholic church to agitate against, whereas the islamic dogmatism seems to be intwined with social pressure and honour and all that.
Actually more so agree to an extent.




see the above.
the official point of view in most denominations within islam agree one should take the ' advice' or guidelines (sura means depiction) in the quran literally.
so its a never ending loop: the qurasn is the ultimate word of God, but science advances and things are being discovered that contradict certain pieces within the quran (go read bout Luxenberger a german lebanese dude, articles on the internet) but everyone is trained to not question the holy book.
Yes and No. I find the modern salafi's try to get the best of both worlds. There is an awarness of the allegorical nature of the quran. But almost always will also support taking it literally when it supports their view; namely what the scholars they follow want to believe. Salafs tend to be more literalist but even they have to acknowledge the fact that the quran avoids anchoring it self into literal language and history unless addressing specific situations in the prophets time, and even THEN it goes on to be vague) and so they will concede deeper analysis; though they won't admit their doing that.


i believe most muslims understand that some things within hadith and sharia are rubbish and not in line with what their prophets overall message was, but dare not say it up loud cos of the enormous peer pressure within islam.
Agree. Very much so.



which is more about arabic traditional culture then it has to do with the theology of islam.
this is me speaking as an outsider.
im curious what someone like ahmed has to say about that.

Your totally right. This is how i feel about it. Though there are stuff i think that very simply, are truly in islam that contridict western values. But not the way the BNP and wilders say.

AAAhmed46
7th December 09, 03:35 PM
Islam isnt reacting to modern pressions, its creating them.
If you look at Islam from a theological point of view it even makes less sense then xtian theology, now you have guys like Luxenberger who make a verry good case in proving that whole parts of the qu'ran are poorly translated n.t. texts and the theology doesnt hold up.

I admit there is so much clearly added in afterward, such as conditions put on the dhimmi are all works of scholars and people, even the so called "umar'' writings on dtreatment of dhimmi have no hard archeological support.


everyone with some islamic studies background knows (but usually avoids the subject like the plague) that allah does not mean god.
look up the word for god and look up allah.
two diferent things, theologically seen allah is likely to be a name derived from a local meccan pagan god, and the name for God has been incorrectly translated.
You probably know more arabic then me by now. But the god in the quran clearly is one god, not many. The quran goes on and on about that. Remember, im sure you know this, but the quran is formative of modern arabic. Thus if christian arabs call god Allah, may just be quranic influence on arabic today. Remember; mohammed would not have started such an uproar if he wasn't very radical; though ive heard even right win salafs say that idol worship came later on with arabs, they traditionally had been monothiestic. Seems consistent with mohammeds claims.

However, what do you think of this?

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Sources/Allah/moongod.html

Not totally objective since it's muslim run, but well referenced and argued with good soarces.





yeah things evolve.
i mean salaam aleikhum used to be a xtian greeting, but the muslims incorparated it.
if im not mistaken Jesus told the Emmaus travellers to greet a person with ' peace be upon you ' when you enter his house.
No secret. Mohammad honored Christianity, his whole gripe was (where we will disagree) alterations in christian text and thus theology. Things like this were never meant to be new. Even salaat(prayer) the prostration is mentioned in the bible; and jews do it too(albiet differently)


i dont care how they call him right now, im more interested in what hints they are for the islamic theological devellopment.
Context for a word usually decides it. Al-Ahad "the one'' is one of the 99 names of allah. Al-lah. The word "god'' man..loaded in a pagan culture.


one of the funniest things imo is the cleansing.
the prophet wasnt al mr nice guy n shit so theologically they had an issue.
how to solve this, how to explain this?
well they came up with a version where Muhammad stops being a human and becomes sort off divine, a ' cleansing' by God himself.
Not unlike the spiritus sanctum with Jesus.
and problem is solved.

I think muslims read too far into that personally, taking him into the devine. When the quran really doesn't do that. It talks about the ascention, but even then more as a journey of information then actually "jesusing'' the prophet. He came back with salaat and blah blah you know what i mean.




the same thing goes for the infamous devils verses, the text was supposedly given to muhammad via gabriel, then turns out to be given by the shaitan, a second revelation follows, a correction if you like.

the problem is: the devils verses came through so the prophet was under influence from the devil at some point.
who says its not the case with more verses?
The hadith that cites this is very weak. If sahih bukhari and muslim can be greatly questioned, then those hadith can strongly can be questioned; since even by modern standards they would not stand up. Also seems inconsistent with everything else about the seerah.

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Polemics/sverses.html

From what i know about Muir, or read about him even his works. He really did not like mohammed, he was a missionary(yet even he refutes many of the claims the hates bring up) but i think he was being as honest a scholar then many, i think he sincerely was looking for the truth.




eventhough most muslims dont like the idea and start screaming blasphemy, its known amongst scolars that the qu'ran has been tinkered with at least as much as the bible, if not more.
Think you've been going to answering-islam a bit huh? Fairly dogmatic site, not exactly 'scientific'.
I tihnk your talking more Hadith. The quran was written down 20 years after mohammeds death, and there were still hafiz and companions alive when it was. There are two copies of the uthmanic qurans still around. The changes are minimal, a word or two only because it was written without the dots(you know what im talking about). Add the dots in, and then it's a bit different, but the context barely changes. Contextually it was always consistent. The reason for even this change was because when those few who were literate would write surahs down, it was in different dialects of arabic with different alphabets. Who knows if these are even spoken today? But if it was to be a book, they needed it to be in a single codified written language.

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/Mss/

Unfortunately, Muslims are raised to believe that the quran is unchanged EXACTLY as they look at it. Not realizing what it really meant in terms of arabic. The changes are highly insignificant. Certainly no burning or destruction of entire volumes/sections; save for misspelling, errors made. The whole book would then be discarded. I remember Shabir Ally discussing this with two men coming in with the exact same question when confronted by a christian missionary using the same argument. He explained it very well.

To sum it up, it's like this: During the prophets time those who wrote down surahs did so in one of 4(or was it five? I don't remember) versions of arabic. They basically united it into one version of arabic and presto, we have the uthmanic qurans that are cannon for today. The different methods of recitations are due to how the dots are put in and how they were passed down. My mother recites one way, my father another. Very very small differences in how they recite however.


in modern times we get all these pesky new technologies we can use to examine old texts and these things are being discovered.
due to its flawed construction islam either has to reform or sticks to its old routine and adoptig a hostile attitude towards science etc.
Very christian routine to my friend.


it also has to do with the history of the arab nations and the tight social structures they're from.
you dont admit to mistakes, and you're used to follow the rest of your family, village, nation etc.
don't question the rules.

I think you should give the social control by the arab state more credit in the sad state of islam then the religion it self.

Lebell
7th December 09, 04:37 PM
Sorry but im keeping my reaction a bit short as my comp keeps crashing, i was on 2 third of a complex reply post with quotes arguments etc and it fucking crashed!
lol!
oh well.
ill give you the speed version:





later on with arabs, they traditionally had been monothiestic. Seems consistent with mohammeds claims.

However, what do you think of this?

According to some sources, what was the job of muhammads father?
:-)






No secret. Mohammad honored Christianity, his whole gripe was (where we will disagree) alterations in christian text and thus theology. Things like this were never meant to be new. Even salaat(prayer) the prostration is mentioned in the bible; and jews do it too(albiet differently)

no, islam is different from xtianity and jewdom.
it's like this: i go to the louvre, paris, and with a marker in my hand i walk up to the mona lisa, draw some glasses and a fake moustache on her and say: ' what? c'mon, its way better like this you guiz!'




Think you've been going to answering-islam a bit huh? Fairly dogmatic site, not exactly 'scientific'.


I had to google to find out what you meant.
i have not been reading there.




I tihnk your talking more Hadith. The quran was written down 20 years after mohammeds death, and there were still hafiz and companions alive when it was. There are two copies of the uthmanic qurans still around. The changes are minimal, a word or two only because it was written without the dots(you know what im talking about). Add the dots in, and then it's a bit different, but the context barely changes. Contextually it was always consistent.

No,without the sound marks it could mean different things and the dots are crucial.
a sheep and a whore are a dot different.:-p








To sum it up, it's like this: During the prophets time those who wrote down surahs did so in one of 4(or was it five? I don't remember) versions of arabic. They basically united it into one version of arabic and presto, we have the uthmanic qurans that are cannon for today.

i dont want to be a dick but do they actually understand arabic?



Very christian routine to my friend.
no, independant thought routine.
dont drag me into this ' boohoohoo those arrogant xtians are always bashing islam' thingy, im not even considered xtian by them.



I think you should give the social control by the arab state more credit in the sad state of islam then the religion it self.

Thats a difficult question.
i think the arab dictatorships keep the extremists at bay.
maybe it should get interesting when the son of mubarak loses control over egypt and the muslim brotherhood takes control.
lets see how that will work out for them.

Lebell
7th December 09, 04:46 PM
ok like for example:

whore-treaty
(left to right western style)

عا هرة- عاهدة

damnit i dont know how to properly apply the goddamned fonts yet.
anyway, my point is its bout root letters: in this case ain-ha-ra (for whore) and ain-ha-dal

ra and dal can look similar depending on handwriting etc.
its not my best example but i forgot the others ive seen, if i remember some ill post better more striking examples.

AAAhmed46
7th December 09, 05:03 PM
According to some sources, what was the job of muhammads father?
:-)


Yep, building da idol! But apparently if they can be trusted, scholars say that his grand father was monotheistic. Mohammed butted heads with his uncles.






no, islam is different from xtianity and jewdom.
it's like this: i go to the louvre, paris, and with a marker in my hand i walk up to the mona lisa, draw some glasses and a fake moustache on her and say: ' what? c'mon, its way better like this you guiz!'
Hate to come off as a dick but...... it wasn't the mono-lisa. They already minced it up. If anything he tweaked it with photoshop to how it should have been.






I had to google to find out what you meant.
i have not been reading there.
Ah good. Atleast you went straight for the soarces.





No,without the sound marks it could mean different things and the dots are crucial.
a sheep and a whore are a dot different.:-p
....yes but for the last 1350 years there 4 methods of recitation have remained. They were never destroyed. Hence why qurans have the dots when you buy one. And why they arn't so different. It's not like the uthmanic manuscript did away with the other versions, it was just cannon.









i dont want to be a dick but do they actually understand arabic?
My father does. not my mom. Shabir ally showed some of the differences, and how minor they are.




no, independant thought routine.
dont drag me into this ' boohoohoo those arrogant xtians are always bashing islam' thingy, im not even considered xtian by them.
No im not getting into that, but it WAS brought up by Muir, just pointing that out.





Thats a difficult question.
i think the arab dictatorships keep the extremists at bay.
maybe it should get interesting when the son of mubarak loses control over egypt and the muslim brotherhood takes control.
lets see how that will work out for them.
They took hold because the extremists do things the government wont like schooling and food, social support that the government should be supporting.

And the governments keep them out of power, but do fuck all to really get rid of them, when they could.

But *GASP* That would mean they can't have the monopoly of wealth and power they always wanted, a tax based social support and social services means......

AAAhmed46
7th December 09, 05:04 PM
Check out the weblinks i put out though, they go way more into depth.

Lebell
7th December 09, 05:09 PM
ok il check them out, but they prob make my comp crash.

well the mona lisa was a bit too difficult i guess, lemme give you another parabel.

being a muslim is like dating this really huge fat bitch who could totally beat you up.
you knowthat if you dump her she will go totally psycho on you.
some of your friends who arent dating a fat huge psycho bitch are making fun of you cos of it.
but you have to step up, after all it is your girlfriend whether you like it or not.
but sometimes...just sometimes...when you're amongst friends you trust, and you've had a couple of beers you look a friend in the eye and admit: yeah..she IS a total fat ugly bitch!

;-)

AAAhmed46
7th December 09, 05:16 PM
Wow, read my won soarce, apparently more dots in the uthmanic texts then i realized.

It is now over forty years since I first came across information about the papyrus known as PERF 558, a bilingual Greek and Arabic document from Ihnas (known in Greek as Herakleopolis) in Upper Egypt. I wondered then at the general failure to recognise the central importance of the document, and over the years my wonder has grown.

PERF 558 is just one of a crucial group of twenty-two papyri from Egypt, written mainly in Greek but with the odd one in Greek and Arabic, and dating from the period A.H. 22-57, that found their way in the nineteenth century into the Erzherzog Rainer Papyrus Collection in Vienna.* Their authenticity has never been challenged, nor can I see any valid basis for such a challenge. The wealth of circumstantial detail that they contain is such that they can only come from the period indicated. The minutiae that we find in them would simply have not been available to anyone writing at any later stage of history.†

The whole group has had the attention of some papyrologists, notably Adolf Grohmann, and of some of those interested in the early Muslim administration of Egypt,[1] but real attention seems to have stopped there. I suspect that some of the problem lies with the fact that Caetani does not appear to have been aware of PERF 558 when he compiled volume 4 of the Annali, though he did know of others in the group.[2] It is probably as a result of this that PERF 558 is only occasionally mentioned in more general historical writings by Western scholars, and then only in passing, for example in footnotes by Crone and Cook in Hagarism[3] and by Hoyland in Seeing Islam As Others Saw It.[4] References in Muslim sources are even rarer.[5] Yet, as I hope this brief paper will show, it should be well known to all those interested in early Islam.

The first serious examination of PERF 558 is to be found in the Corpus Papyrorum Archiducis Rainer, III I, pt. 2,[6] published in Vienna in 1923-24, edited by Adolf Grohmann. However, it was another work by Grohmann published in 1932 that made the document more accessible. This was his Aperçu de papyrologie arabe, published in Cairo.[7] It was through the Aperçu that I first made my acquaintance with PERF 558. Grohmann 's transcriptions and translations of both the Greek and the Arabic versions are a model of their kind, though one might question a couple of his readings. The facsimile plate, however, is hardly legible. Later plates were better,[8] but the most legible depiction of the original Arabic text is a tracing by Beatrice Gruendler in The Development of the Arabic Scripts,[9] to which I would refer those who wish to get an idea of how the original looks. The subject of the texts of the papyrus is mundane. It is simply the acknowledgement of the requisition of sixty-five sheep from Herakleopolis by the forces led by `Abd-Allah b. Jabir,** to be set off against the year's taxes. It has been suggested that the Greek version was written first, but this is by no means certain. The Greek occupies lines 1-3 and half of line 5 (5a) on the recto, and there is also a line on the verso. The Arabic occupies line 4, half of line 5 (5b) and lines 6-8 on the recto. The Arabic is not a direct translation of the Greek, but the core of the contents is the same in both versions. The Greek version refers to the Arab invaders as magaritai (i.e., muhajirun).[10] Despite its age PERF 558 is relatively easy to read. There are two reasons for this: it is written in a clear cursive hand; and it contains a fair sprinkling of dots.*** As will be seen, there are dotted forms of six letters [jim, kha', dhal, za', shin and nun, all of which are also to be found without dots]; there are some long vowels [a, i, and u are all to be found, though a is more frequently omitted]; and there are some examples of alif maqsurah.

In the following transliteration a line underneath a letter has been used to indicate that the letter has no dot in the original. The transliteration also uses the following non-standard signs, to allow all letters to be represented by a single character and to avoid using diacritics that might fuse with the underlining:


Q = tha'$ = shinG = ghayn

H = ha' S = sad h = ha'

C = kha't = ta' O = ta' marbutah. ‡

d = dhalE = `aynA is used to transliterate alif.

[ ] surround an addition.

[4]BSMALLhALRHMNALRHYMhdAMAACdEBDALh

[5b]ABNJ[A]BRW-ASH[A]B-hMNALJZR MNAhN[A]SACdNA

[6]MNCLYFO TDRQABNABWQYRALASGRW-MN

CLYFOAStFRABNABWQYRALAKBRCMSYN$AO

[7]MNALJZRW-XMSE$RO $AOACRYAJZRhAASH[A]B

SFNHWKT[A]'BhWQQLA[`]hFY

[8]$hRJM[A]DYAL-AWLYMN SNOAQNTYNW-E$RYNW-KTBABNHDYDW

In the name of the Merciful, Compassionate God. These are the animals for slaughtering that `Abd-Allah ibn Jabir and his companions took from Ihnas:§ we took from the representatives of Theodor[akios],á the elder son of Abu Qir, and from the representative of [Chr ]istofor[ os ],á the younger son of Abu Qir, fifty sheep from the animals for slaughter and fifteen other sheep, which were butchered for the men on his ships,∞ his cavalry and his infantry in the month Jumada I of the year Twenty-Two. The scribe was Ibn Hadid.§§

Though the main contents of the document cannot be described as vital, except to the sheep and the expeditionary force, the Arabic version contains two features that are of outstanding significance. The first is the script that is used; the second is that the date is given as the year A.H. 22.

The year 22 is the first Islamic year for which any dated documents written in Arabic survive, and there are only two of those: P Berol 15002,[11] which is unfortunately fragmentary, and PERF 558, the first complete Arabic document of the Muslim era.

The orthographic features¥ of PERF 558 set out above would be of great interest at any time during the first century, but the earlier the date the more important they become. Further, the way that they are used in PERF 558 indicates that they are hardly likely to be a new development. Gruendler sums up the position succinctly: "the first cursive influence must therefore be expected several decades earlier."[12] The fact that they can be traced back to A.H. 22 and earlier means that the traditional view that these orthographic features date from the period when al-Hajjaj ibn Yusuf was governor of Iraq (694-714)¤ cannot be correct. This traditional view is neatly set out for us in Hitti, History of the Arabs, p. 219:

He [al-Hajjaj] contributed to the development of diacritical marks in Arabic orthography to distinguish such similarly written letters as ba', ta', and tha', dal and dhal, and to the adaptation from Syriac of vowel signs, damma (u), fatha (a) and kasra (i), inserted above and below the consonants. In this orthographic reform he was prompted by the desire to prevent errors in the recitation of the sacred text, of which he evidently prepared a critical revision.

On the evidence of PERF 558 and other papyri, much of the above paragraph is misleading and must be discarded. The use of signs for short vowels appears to have been new, but this cannot have been the case with the other features, which must have been available to the earliest scribes of the Qur'an (whether they were used or not).

A possible explanation may be that less cursive styles than that exhibited in PERF 558 were used for the writing of the Qur'an, and that dotting did not feature in these; but the most that al-Hajjaj could have insisted on was the revival and regular use of earlier features.

This combination of date and script would be remarkable enough in itself, but the papyrus has yet another nugget of priceless information. The Greek version has its own Byzantine date[13] in line 5a of the recto of the papyrus. This has the form: "30 Pharmouthi of the indiction year 1". Such dates are commonly found in Greek papyri, and indeed there are half a dozen other documents in the Erzherzog Rainer Papyrus group that have indiction dates for the period A.D. 642-43.[14] The only problem is that the indiction cycle is a relatively short one of fifteen years, and thus great care is needed in working out the appropriate date in the Christian era. Grohmann worked out "30 Pharmouthi of the indiction year 1" to be 25th April, 643 A.D.

The date fits with two of the most commonly available conversion tables: those of Caetani[15] and of Freeman-Grenville.¥¥ They make the last day of Jumada I equate with 26th April, 643 A.D. Given the virtual inevitability of imprecisions of dating at the period, the fit is remarkably good.¤¤

AAAhmed46
7th December 09, 05:17 PM
* The reference codes for these papyri come from the Catalogue of the Erzherzog Rainer Papyrus Collection put together by J. von Karabacek and others inl Vienna in 1894. The papyri, numbered 552-573 in the catalogue, now form part of the collections of the Österreichische Nationalbibliothek.

† I know of no one who has suggested that the papyri might have some later origin or suggested that carbon dating or other scientific tests be applied. For my part I am confident that scientific tests would confirm the age of the papyri.

** Abd-Allah ibn Jabir is known only from the papyri. He is referred to in PERF 555, 556, 558, 559 and 561. See Caetani, Annali, 4, A.H. 21, para. 99; Caetani and Gabrieli, Onomasticon Arabicum, 2, entry 11436.

*** There are sixteen ordinary dotted letters. In addition, in line 7 the alif of ASH[A]B is preceded by a dot. There is a similar instance in an inscription dated A.H. 80. (See Gruendler, op. cit., pp. 32 and 18.) Both examples may indicate hamzah. Hamzah may also lurk in the cluster WKT[A]'Bh in line 7, which has a spike that might be considered to be either a ya' or the bearer of a hamzah. The odds are slightly in favour of a bearer, as one might expect a similar spike in the next cluster WQQLA[ ' ]h if a ya' were intended. This possible indication of hamzah must remain uncertain.

‡ Of the ta' marbutah of later times there is of course no sign; final ha' is employed where necessary.

§ Literally "This is what `Abd-Allah ibn Jabir and his companions took from lhnas from the animals for slaughtering."

á The translation gives the name forms recoverable from the Greek version, which may be translated as:

Recto

1. In the name of God. [From the] Amir `Abd-Allah to you Christophor[os and] Theodor[akios], pagarchs of Herakle[opolis],

2. I have taken from you for the purpose of feeding the Saracens who are with me in Herakle[opolis] 65 sheep (sixty-

3. five and no more); and I have had the present document written to make this clear .

5a Written by me, Ionnes, no[tary] and off[icial], 30th day of the month of Pharmouthi of the ind[iction year] 1.

Verso

1. Document about sheep given to the muhajirun (Greek magaritai) and other [new] arrivals, towards the payment of the taxes of the Ind[iction year] 1.

∞ Literally "which the men on his ships. . . had butchered."

§§ The name lbn Hadid is followed by a further waw, the import of which is not clear, though there are parallels in the Safaitic inscriptions.

¥ The orthographic features can be seen in other early papyri, including P Berol 15002, but they are at their clearest in P558.

¤ Al-Hajjaj ibn Yusuf (c. A.D. 661-714) is usually credited with the improvement of the script used for writing the Qur'an (See, for example, Nöldeke, Geschichte des Qorans, 3, pp. 260 ff). It may be that the basis of this was just one facet of his general quest for stability in all areas of life, but he seems to have pursued the matter with his usual vigour. He wanted the new text to supersede any other, and he seems to have succeeded. In a handful of readings it appears to be his preference rather than that of the `Uthmanic recension that has prevailed (see lbn Abi Da'ud, Kitab al-Masahif, ed. A.Jeffery, pp. 117-118)).

¥¥ Freeman-Grenville, Tables, leaves itto the reader to work this out, and so I may be wrong.

¤¤ Whilst such tables as those produced by Caetani and Freeman-Grenville and others may have a spurious certainty (and this is perhaps even more so with recent versions on CD-ROM), it would appear that they are not likely to be far out.

Endnotes

[1] See, for example, Kosei Morimoto, "Taxation in Egypt under the Arab Conquest," Orient (Tokyo) 15 (1979), pp. 71-99, and The Fiscal Administration of Egypt in the Early Islamic Period (Kyoto, 1981), though the emphasis is on other documents. One might have expected something useful in Frazer's revision of Butler's Arab Conquest of Egypt (A.J. Butler, The Arab Conquest of Egypt, 2nd edition revised by P.M. Frazer, Oxford, 1978); but though Frazer's introductory notes have a reasonably good section on the papyrological evidence (pp. lxxvi-lxxxiii), PERF 558 is not dealt with.

[2] Published in 1911. Caetani was aware of PERF 555, 556, 559 and 561.

[3] P. Crone and M. Cook, Hagarism (Cambridge, 1977), p.157.

[4] R. Hoyland, Seeing Islam As Others Saw It, Studies in Late Antiquity and Early Islam, 13 (Princeton, 1997), p. 688.

[5] The two that I have seen are in works still under consideration for publication.

[6] Corpus Papyrorum Archiducis Raineri III, Series Arabica I, Pt. 2, XXI-XXVI (Vienna, 1923-24).

[7] A. Grohmann, "Aperçu de papyrologie arabe", Études de papyrologie, I, Société Royale Égyptienne de papyrologie (Cairo, 1932), pp.41-43 and plate IX.

[8] See N. Abbott, The Rise of the North Arabic Script (Chicago, 1939), plate IV; A. Grohmann, From the World of Arabic Papyri (Cairo, 1952), pp. 113-115 and plate 11. Idem, Arabische Chronologie. Arabische Papyruskunde, 91 no.1 and plate 11.1. Handbuch der Orientalistik, Abt. l, Erg. Bd. II, 1 (Leiden/ Köln, 1966).

[9] B. Gruendler, The Development of the Arabic Scripts, Harvard Semitic series, no.43 (Harvard, 1993).

[10] The fullest discussions of the Greek term, of which there are variant spellings, are to be found in P. Crone and M. Cook, Hagarism, passim.

[11] This papyrus is now housed in the Staatsbibliothek in Berlin.

[12] The Development of the Arabic Scripts, p. 135.

[13] For detailed information on Byzantine chronology and in particular on the indiction cycles, see V. Grumel, La chronologie byzantine (Paris, 1958). I am grateful to Dr James Howard-Johnston of Corpus Christi College, Oxford, for drawing my attention to this invaluable work.

[14] PERF 553 (January-February, 642), 564 (19th July, 642), 555 (26th December, 642), 554 (25th February, 643), 559 (1st June, 643), 561 (29th November, 643).

[15] Caetani, Annali, 4, 674.

AAAhmed46
7th December 09, 05:20 PM
ok il check them out, but they prob make my comp crash.

well the mona lisa was a bit too difficult i guess, lemme give you another parabel.

being a muslim is like dating this really huge fat bitch who could totally beat you up.
you knowthat if you dump her she will go totally psycho on you.
some of your friends who arent dating a fat huge psycho bitch are making fun of you cos of it.
but you have to step up, after all it is your girlfriend whether you like it or not.
but sometimes...just sometimes...when you're amongst friends you trust, and you've had a couple of beers you look a friend in the eye and admit: yeah..she IS a total fat ugly bitch!

;-)


I must laugh at your blasphemy!
Though i think she's a sexy woman who can beat me up.



Anywhoo, apparently there are a whole bunch of manuscripts from what i read in that website that are all dated to the first Hijra(not to be mistaken with the man/woman in india ;)

Problem with reading all that shit is it makes my head hurt. It's so BORING.

Lebell
7th December 09, 05:23 PM
ok ive read through them.
i fail to see any point.
it's just the walls of texts and illogical reasoning im used to.

somewhere they sorta say:' yes well, it is written without the sounds like kasra dhamma etc so one could give a loser meaning to the word, but in many cases this is not true.'

that seems to me like its not correct, i think they are aiming at the argument that within the context of the phrase it should be easy to recogise which word in what form they mean.

Someone like Luxenberger pretty much rips that theory a second asshole.

It also entirely misses the point: the vast majority of 'scientific minded' muslims does not even want to consider that the texts did NOT come directly from God, and the point of many peope is that muhammad himself just made a mix of old religions and made his own version.
but you cant say that because it insults islam etc.
basically following their own logic you're stuck, you cant question, you just follow.


another lose example of islamic science: this one day im watching a show bout the dome of the rock and stuff, beautiful building, interesting history (build by byzantiums/inspired by byzantiums ) and this ' scientist' is talking about stuff, all very interesting.
then at the end of the program he suddenly says:'....just like we know that exactly above jerusalem the sky is thinner and its easier to ascend into space/heaven, western science knows this but they keep it a secret, its a conspiracy!!'

i was sitting there with my mouth open, this was aired by the national islamic tvstation funded by the government.

AAAhmed46
7th December 09, 05:33 PM
somewhere they sorta say:' yes well, it is written without the sounds like kasra dhamma etc so one could give a loser meaning to the word, but in many cases this is not true.'

that seems to me like its not correct, i think they are aiming at the argument that within the context of the phrase it should be easy to recogise which word in what form they mean.

Someone like Luxenberger pretty much rips that theory a second asshole.
There are pages upon pages though, they have an entire section dedicated to it. Check it all out.



It also entirely misses the point: the vast majority of 'scientific minded' muslims does not even want to consider that the texts did NOT come directly from God, and the point of many peope is that muhammad himself just made a mix of old religions and made his own version.
but you cant say that because it insults islam etc.
basically following their own logic you're stuck, you cant question, you just follow.
Yes, they are stupid not to see that. But it's their parents faults for perpetuating it in that manner, as well as the mosque it self for not correcting and educating that belief. They do nothing but let them think every photocopied version of the quran is exactly like the one the prophet had. I honestly do not think the quran is 'changed', but not in the way that you typical mahmood thinks so. Ive been well aware for years the 4(or is it 5?) methods of recitation and writing of the quran. Though putting them side by side, meh, seems similar enough to me.
Muslims also fail to see that islam was never meant to be truly in rivalray with other religions. Even the quran is explecit on that. The versus so often brought by haters to say the quran is anti-semetic is basically the same chastisement jesus and even the old testament brings up about the Jews. It was meant to compliment previous scriptures.


another lose example of islamic science: this one day im watching a show bout the dome of the rock and stuff, beautiful building, interesting history (build by byzantiums/inspired by byzantiums ) and this ' scientist' is talking about stuff, all very interesting.
then at the end of the program he suddenly says:'....just like we know that exactly above jerusalem the sky is thinner and its easier to ascend into space/heaven, western science knows this but they keep it a secret, its a conspiracy!!'

i was sitting there with my mouth open, this was aired by the national islamic tvstation funded by the government.

Welcome to salafi thinking.

But you know, i remember seeing wild conspiracy theories on CTS(christian television station) about the builderburg group and the freemasons. And then almost after that is pat robertson coming on with the 700 club.

It's like they have free reign to say the most retarded shit on religious channels.

Lebell
7th December 09, 05:34 PM
I must laugh at your blasphemy!
Though i think she's a sexy woman who can beat me up.

You'll sober up soon enough.
enjoy your fat woman in the meantime! :-p




Anywhoo, apparently there are a whole bunch of manuscripts from what i read in that website that are all dated to the first Hijra(not to be mistaken with the man/woman in india ;)

Problem with reading all that shit is it makes my head hurt. It's so BORING.

yeah, the interesting thing i noticedwas the mention of a dot preceding the alif.
perhaps it was used as what now is the hamza.
who knows?

there was a second interesting idea: the ha was used as an ending n stuff, and there was no ta'marbuta yet (if i understand this correctly ofcourse)

now every n00b at arabic knows ta'marbuta or aat (alif ,ba) is usedto indicate female sing and plural.
ta marbuta changes into a ta sometimes, i wonder how they did thast before the implemention of the ta'marbuta?

ill ask my dude tomorrow.

AAAhmed46
7th December 09, 05:35 PM
And this is why i hate reading all that. Basically went over my head.

Tell me what it's trying to say.

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/Mss/hijazi.html

Lebell
7th December 09, 05:41 PM
There are pages upon pages though, they have an entire section dedicated to it. Check it all out.

are you insane??
NO way dude!



Muslims also fail to see that islam was never meant to be truly in rivalray with other religions. Even the quran is explecit on that. The versus so often brought by haters to say the quran is anti-semetic is basically the same chastisement jesus and even the old testament brings up about the Jews. It was meant to compliment previous scriptures.



Thats how YOU see it.
Or a muslim.

A xtian believes Jesus was the son of God who saved mankind etc and Jesus also warned that false prophets would come after he'd been gone.
How should a xtian feel about Islam?

Another step back, how would a jew feel about Xtianity?
Some wacko says he's the messiah, and next thing you know you got yourself a worldreligion!
All matter of perception.






Welcome to salafi thinking.

But you know, i remember seeing wild conspiracy theories on CTS(christian television station) about the builderburg group and the freemasons. And then almost after that is pat robertson coming on with the 700 club.

It's like they have free reign to say the most retarded shit on religious channels.

true, friggin idiots everywhere.
LOL!
i gotta tell this, there's this xtian tv channel here with retarded shows.
so this one time, years ago they visited schools n shit, teaching kids xtian lessons.
i feel you should leave kids out of religion and let them make up their own minds.
anyway, so the show has all these presents for the kids.
kids really excited n shit.
then they take them to another classroom and discuss virginity.
wtf these kids are 10...
in the meantime some nazi trashed all the presents in the other room.
(so you know, broken presents=lost virignity b4 marriage) and let the kids come in.
oh the crying...

lmao!

AAAhmed46
7th December 09, 06:01 PM
are you insane??
NO way dude!

I don't blame you. honestly i don't. Im just going over it myself just skimming.

Basically what you read was one page on many many, the cover the dots thing, then go into a whole bunch of other previous manuscripts, then have a huge fucking page on the seven methods of recitation(wow i learned something, it isn't 4 or 5 but 7) and then compare how they say things to eachother and blah blah blah blah blah. Then connect it, then go into manuscripts older then the uthmanic(Scraps though) then compare them........

It's loooooong and tedious.

Not just all together. Even the individual pages. Looong as hell.

EDIT: My point is for all it's faults, it's well researched by good sources, excellent arguments, particularly when the bring out first hijra manuscripts. From what ive skimmed. Because i honestly do not have the patience to read one page of that much less all of it.





Thats how YOU see it.
Or a muslim.

A xtian believes Jesus was the son of God who saved mankind etc and Jesus also warned that false prophets would come after he'd been gone.
How should a xtian feel about Islam?

Another step back, how would a jew feel about Xtianity?
Some wacko says he's the messiah, and next thing you know you got yourself a worldreligion!
All matter of perception.
It really is. I think Muslims over the course of history added so much excess baggage to their religion they fucked it up.







true, friggin idiots everywhere.
LOL!
i gotta tell this, there's this xtian tv channel here with retarded shows.
so this one time, years ago they visited schools n shit, teaching kids xtian lessons.
i feel you should leave kids out of religion and let them make up their own minds.
anyway, so the show has all these presents for the kids.
kids really excited n shit.
then they take them to another classroom and discuss virginity.
wtf these kids are 10...
in the meantime some nazi trashed all the presents in the other room.
(so you know, broken presents=lost virignity b4 marriage) and let the kids come in.
oh the crying...

lmao!

So one of them broke the presents? What the hell?

I didn't even know what sex was until i was 13(yes that long)

Holy crap....

Lebell
8th December 09, 05:03 AM
So one of them broke the presents? What the hell?

I didn't even know what sex was until i was 13(yes that long)

Holy crap....

oh yes you should have seen it...
it caused a lot of protest and stuff.
nowadays they are really modern, but only since the last 8 years or so.
the old guard were scary old dudes presenting talkshows bout how the lord jesus came into peoples lives and stuff.

and they used to have this guy named Peter who was extremely annying, he'd go on the streets as a streetperformer and give people questions/problems and guess what?
jesus was always the solution!
even at age 12 i facepalmed at that...

i hink there's some footage floating around on youtube but im almost sure it isnt translated/subtitled so you would miss out on the stoopitfest.

AAAhmed46
8th December 09, 10:34 AM
Yes well muslims are a bit behind the more modern ones, where stuck with the street reporter dude mentality.

Dudes like Shabir Ally arn't so bad, nor even your tarek fatahs are great, though Fatah would piss off the mainstream guys and kisses too much right wing ass.

But the rest? Stuck in the dark ages.

AAAhmed46
8th December 09, 12:19 PM
You'll sober up soon enough.
enjoy your fat woman in the meantime! :-p

She may be large and angry. But when she takes time to lose weight she's oh so sweet.
And behind all that anger is a woman who helped me through hard times and fought off people of ill intent for me.

Gotta be loyal to my woman! No matter how fat she can get at times(ill get her on a program again) or how angry she can be(anger and passion go hand in hand)

Lebell
8th December 09, 12:56 PM
Lebell and Ahmed need their own religious talk show.

im up for it if you can find any sponsors.
but i insist ahmed gets stripsearched before every show.