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View Full Version : Cop left paralysed, assailant found 'not guilty of assault'



Harpy
20th March 09, 04:46 PM
Constable Matthew Butcher from Perth was left paralysed on his left side and in a wheelchair after trying to break up a fight between 3 men (the McLeod family - a father and his two sons) and another group in a local pub that had spilled out onto the street.

Even after admitting that he had 'flying headbutted' the Constable from behind, the assailant Barry McLeod was found not guilty of assaulting police.

The McLeod family said the police used excessive force. The snr. McLeod was tasered and later suffered a heart attack - his 3rd in three years to set the record straight.

http://www.news.com.au/perthnow/story/0,21598,25177866-948,00.html


This is just bloody disgusting to me. It is a common enough occurrence for police to be called to break up disturbances and fights. For the parties involved to have the nerve to say that the police used excessive force, when they were the ones who started the @%# fight, makes me want to find the McLeods and every single one of their living relatives and abort them. Discuss.

Shawarma
20th March 09, 04:49 PM
Think about it. If you were a judge, would YOU dare to sentence a guy that cripples people with flying fucking headbutts to prison? He must be the baddest motherfucker in Oz!

WarPhalange
20th March 09, 04:55 PM
It's the jury that decides the verdict, I was told.

Harpy
20th March 09, 05:00 PM
I bet kracker is pleased.

WarPhalange
20th March 09, 05:02 PM
Oh snap.

elipson
20th March 09, 05:10 PM
They should have let the fuckers just kill each other.

Kein Haar
20th March 09, 07:52 PM
At a bar...word.

mike321
20th March 09, 09:47 PM
I know this may not be popular, but just as I tend to give police the benefit of the doubt until I see evidence of bad behavior, I also give juries the benefit of the doubt. This sounds like it might be a bad verdict but I did not see any compelling evidence that the jury acted wrong. They saw the video, (was I reading correct that there was one) and saw the evidence. My sympathy to the officer and his family but jury duty isn't easy either. You are trying to evaluate evidence after the fact without being there. It is almost the polar opposite of the difficulty that police face.

Tanhalen21
20th March 09, 10:01 PM
Whatever, evens out the score between abusive cops and abusive civilians.

danno
20th March 09, 10:17 PM
in the last few weeks of my security gig, i really just wanted to let the fools kill each other. i stopped giving a damn about the welfare of drunken fools who can't control themselves. they'd attack each other or you, you'd pin one down and they start accusing you of excessive force on the spot. to me, they began to look more chimp than human.

not a good attitude to develop when your job is to look after people.

nihilist
21st March 09, 12:12 AM
Never get in the way of Highlanders when they are battling for supremacy.

Doritosaurus Chex
21st March 09, 12:22 AM
If the cop could convince them that they were on holy ground, then this whole thing would have easily been avoided.

nihilist
21st March 09, 12:47 AM
Oh, I don't know.


I think it's better to burn out, than fade away.

mrm1775
21st March 09, 12:55 AM
Whatever, evens out the score between abusive cops and abusive civilians.You seriously should be ashamed of yourself for making that statement.

Kein Haar
21st March 09, 07:52 AM
Never get in the way of Highlanders when they are battling for supremacy.

Thread should have ended on this.

diesel_tke
21st March 09, 08:50 AM
I would like to see more of the evidence. However, the Cop should be able to sue him an win in Civil court.

SFGOON
21st March 09, 09:28 AM
Yeah, he can take all his beef jerky for the rest of his life! And half his welfare checks, and maybe some of his Foster's too!

Tom Kagan
21st March 09, 10:28 AM
This is just bloody disgusting to me. It is a common enough occurrence for police to be called to break up disturbances and fights. For the parties involved to have the nerve to say that the police used excessive force, when they were the ones who started the @%# fight, makes me want to find the McLeods and every single one of their living relatives and abort them. Discuss.

The guy came to the aid of his father who was being tasered.

From another story on the same news site:


The bar manager of the Old Bailey Tavern in Joondalup, Lara Dushka, testified that she was grateful to the McLeods for protecting her when a group of drunk painters started a fight with two young men and refused to leave.

Footage from inside the Old Bailey shows that the McLeods were not involved in any fighting. They were described at the trial as ``peacemakers'' in the pub.

http://www.news.com.au/perthnow/story/0,21598,25221416-948,00.html

kracker
21st March 09, 02:18 PM
I bet kracker is pleased.

I am. This is a justifiable use of force. He tasered an old man who already had two heart attacks. The flying headbut may have saved the life of the old man if he decided to taser him again.

kanegs
21st March 09, 02:59 PM
So let me get this straight... If a cop kills an unarmed man we must assume he's innocent until proven guilty. But if a citizen is found innocent in court for assaulting a cop there's something wrong with the justice system?

Are you sure there isn't a double standard here?

SFGOON
21st March 09, 03:04 PM
Do you mean in a court of law, or a court of public opinion? They're two very different things with vastly different case law - rule of law vs. rule of mob and all that.

Tanhalen21
21st March 09, 04:03 PM
You seriously should be ashamed of yourself for making that statement.

I'm not. Just because someone gets paralyzed doesn't mean they didn't have it coming.

kanegs
21st March 09, 06:18 PM
Do you mean in a court of law, or a court of public opinion? They're two very different things with vastly different case law - rule of law vs. rule of mob and all that.
I'm talking about the court of law. The one with the judge and jury who decided the defendants were not guilty.
From:
http://www.news.com.au/perthnow/story/0,21598,25221344-5008620,00.html


REASONABLE FORCE

An unnecessary or excessive use of force by a police officer on a citizen is an unlawful assault. A citizen does not have to submit to such force, or stand by and do nothing while someone else is subjected to it.

It is for the state to prove that at the time of the alleged assault, the named police officer was performing a function of his office. To do this (in counts one and two), the state must prove beyond reasonable doubt that the officer was not at the time using unreasonable force towards Barry McLeod.

You must also consider whether Robert McLeod and Barry McLeod had an honest and reasonable, but mistaken belief that the police officer was not performing a function of his office at the time of the assault.
Sounds reasonable to me.

From: http://www.news.com.au/perthnow/story/0,,25221416-2761,00.html


Until last year, Bob McLeod was a police-registered security agent.

``If I was that kind of person the police would not have given me a licence to install security systems in people's houses and jewellery stores,'' he said.

``I've got friends who are policemen. I think they've got a really hard job to do. But to see your son being struck by a policeman, I was just stunned.

``Bob McLeod told the court he saw Sgt (Gary)-Blackwood punch his son before striking him with a baton.

``He (Sgt Blackwood) didn't try to put Barry under arrest. He didn't try to handcuff him or ask any questions. He just ran over with his baton extended.''

The McLeods were offered money by other media organisations to tell their story, but decided to speak to The Sunday Times for no payment.

``We need the money, but all we want is for people to understand what really happened,'' said Bob's wife, Margaret McLeod, who wasn't involved in the incident.

``This has been a nightmare. They were acquitted, but people are saying the McLeod name with disgust. We remortgaged the house (for the legal fees) and I've gone back to work.''

Mr McLeod can no longer work after his third heart attack, which occurred several minutes after he was shot with the Taser by Constable Butcher.

He was dead for 12 to 14 minutes on the road outside the Old Bailey while police performed CPR.
He was in an induced coma in the same hospital as Constable Butcher, who is now disabled.
It's a shame it happened like that, but just as cops don't go around shooting innocents for fun, not everyone who throws a punch at a cop is a criminal.

kracker
21st March 09, 06:25 PM
So let me get this straight... If a cop kills an unarmed man we must assume he's innocent until proven guilty. But if a citizen is found innocent in court for assaulting a cop there's something wrong with the justice system?

Are you sure there isn't a double standard here?

No double standard. Cop was holding a tazer which is a potentially deadly weapon, especially on an old guy with a weak heart.

WarPhalange
21st March 09, 06:59 PM
Wait, are you actually insinuating the cop should have asked "Hey old man, do you have a weak heart? Because I want to tazer you for wanting to rip your two sons apart."?

kanegs
21st March 09, 07:31 PM
Wait, are you actually insinuating the cop should have asked "Hey old man, do you have a weak heart? Because I want to tazer you for wanting to rip your two sons apart."?

I don't know what Kracker thinks, but please read the articles. The sons weren't fighting each other. The were defending the female manger of the pub they were at. The police decided to reward them for their gallantry by beating them with their batons. When their father objected--with his fists--they tazered him and stopped his heart for 12-14 minutes. This upset his son who headbutted the police officer to save his fathers life.

Well at least that's what the jury believed.

GuiltySpark
21st March 09, 07:44 PM
I am. This is a justifiable use of force. He tasered an old man who already had two heart attacks.
Because the cop knew ahead of time he had two heart attacks?

kracker
21st March 09, 08:17 PM
Because the cop knew ahead of time he had two heart attacks?

Of course not, however the sons did and knew their dad's life was in immediate danger. Their actions were hence justified. Also, using a taser on someone over 40 and who presents no danger to the officer's life is dumber than dog shit.

mike321
21st March 09, 08:34 PM
It's a shame it happened like that, but just as cops don't go around shooting innocents for fun, not everyone who throws a punch at a cop is a criminal.

QFT.

This guy won during his day in court arguing justifiable force against a cop! Even if I knew 100% that I was right I would be afraid to use this defense and not plea bargain. The disgust and loathing insinuated about this guy from people far away from the incident is similar to the disgust and loathing aimed at cops on a regular basis when they use force.

A similar situation is no-knock warrants served on the wrong house. Cops can get very badly hurt or killed in this situation and it is tragic but it does not change the justification of the occupant to use force.

Arguing the facts of the case is one thing, but denying that the use of force is never justified against law enforcement is ultimately anti-law enforcement.

My apologies if I am taking other people's posts to be completely against force in all cases if this is not your arguement.

mrm1775
21st March 09, 11:40 PM
I'm not. Just because someone gets paralyzed doesn't mean they didn't have it coming.Would you be willing to say that to his face?

That cop may have been perfectly justified, or he may have made a mistake. You weren't in that room and neither was I. To say that a guy who is now crippled "had it coming" in this situation is pretty fucking callous, even for a poster on this site.

Tanhalen21
22nd March 09, 01:31 AM
Would you be willing to say that to his face?

That cop may have been perfectly justified, or he may have made a mistake. You weren't in that room and neither was I. To say that a guy who is now crippled "had it coming" in this situation is pretty fucking callous, even for a poster on this site.

I didn't say that. I meant that you shouldn't assume that he didn't do something fucked up that warranted what happened to him. Karma's a bitch, and you can't just sympathize with somebody because something happened to them when you don't know whether or not they deserved it.

SFGOON
22nd March 09, 12:20 PM
You know, after reading this real thorough-like I'm not nearly as worried about the paralyzed officer as I am the precedent this creates, precedent which may lead certain knotheads to be more apt to attack Police regardless of whether or not their use of force is necessary. If anything, the judge should have thrown the book at this guy in such an absurd and over-the-top manner that an appeal and subsequent dismissal of charges was inevitable - nine months from now when Oz is once again engulfed in flames and public passions are elsewhere.

From the looks of things, the constable had a real problem with excessive force. While I don't think it's "karma" that did him in, he willingly chose to play the antagonistic asshole and when your number's up in that game, it's up.

Too bad, so sad. Discretion is the better part of valor, even when you know you can win a physical confrontation.

Just for the record, the taser is a very safe weapon. Though the marketing truthfully says "50,000 volts, folks!" what they don't say in the literature is "0.03 Amps, folks!" It hurts like a motherfucker but has the same jolt as a spark of static electricity. Except the taser does it 19 times per second which kinda throws you off. It's nothing more that a powerful and frightening distraction which might cause a large muscle or two to twitch. It won't stop your heart.

Doritosaurus Chex
22nd March 09, 12:41 PM
Goon: Just wondering, what do you think of "excited delirium" associated with taser deaths?

SFGOON
22nd March 09, 01:32 PM
Not enough data at the moment to say anything conclusively, and at first I tossed it aside as bullshit.

Then, I saw a police video of a guy dying from it. It was this naked, sweaty man on a cold New Jersey night wrestling with about six police officers for an ungodly ten minutes. (This was back in the day when there was ONE officer on a watch who carried a taser.)

So, the guy is on SOMETHING and just keeps fighting, with a measurable degree of success, against all this big guys. Finally, the taser man show up and zaps him. Down he goes, and all the big boys jump on him and cuff him up. They pick him up by the arms and legs and start carrying him to the car - and the guy just goes limp. One second, bitey fish out of water. Next, dead as a doorknob.

It kind of reminds me of John Henry - the guy just struggles so fucking hard that his metabolism can't keep up, and they sort of fizz out. They literally work themselves to death.

I know there's a lot of research ongoing regarding this, and there's some correlation to chronic stimulant abuse. I think exposure to the taser is incidental to the condition. Usually, the call to 911 is "Naked Man shouting in the street" and when the police show up, dude throws down like a grizzly with a pepper up his ass. They don't typically get shot because, well, they're totally naked and unarmed. I know they typically disrobe completely because they feel so hot, and are irritated by things light bright light and loud noise - like safety lights and sirens, for example.

So - yeah. Kind of a mystery and my worst nightmare rolled into one.

Kein Haar
22nd March 09, 06:05 PM
stfu n0bo

Cullion
22nd March 09, 07:25 PM
I know there's a lot of research ongoing regarding this, and there's some correlation to chronic stimulant abuse. I think exposure to the taser is incidental to the condition. Usually, the call to 911 is "Naked Man shouting in the street" and when the police show up, dude throws down like a grizzly with a pepper up his ass. They don't typically get shot because, well, they're totally naked and unarmed. I know they typically disrobe completely because they feel so hot, and are irritated by things light bright light and loud noise - like safety lights and sirens, for example.

So - yeah. Kind of a mystery and my worst nightmare rolled into one.

There have been other cases of death by taser, they didn't all sound like substance abuse was involved.

I don't think the 'not enough to stop your heart' statement sounds that practical.

The electrical systems controlling your heart are not so simple. People can have all kinds of undetected heart problems.
People have died from heart stoppage from being hit in just the right place at the right to with a cricket ball.

It seems reasonable to expect that there's going to be some percentage of people out there who die when tasered even without drugs being involved. You are after all giving them repeated shocks sufficient to make them lose control of their movements, that's going to be a frightening and panic inducing experience.

You don't have time to check their medical history before you pull the trigger.

kanegs
22nd March 09, 07:51 PM
The electrical systems controlling your heart are not so simple. People can have all kinds of undetected heart problems.
People have died from heart stoppage from being hit in just the right place at the right to with a cricket ball.

It seems reasonable to expect that there's going to be some percentage of people out there who die when tasered even without drugs being involved. You are after all giving them repeated shocks sufficient to make them lose control of their movements, that's going to be a frightening and panic inducing experience.
I think many of the people who died from being tasered might have died if they were beat into submission the old fashion way. The taser is a safer way to restrain people than the night stick. Just don't use it to get people off their cell phone or because they wouldn't shut up.

SFGOON
22nd March 09, 10:38 PM
stfu n0bo

If I put that quote in my sig line, will you stop saying that after every single post I make?


There have been other cases of death by taser, they didn't all sound like substance abuse was involved.

I don't think the 'not enough to stop your heart' statement sounds that practical.

The electrical systems controlling your heart are not so simple. People can have all kinds of undetected heart problems.
People have died from heart stoppage from being hit in just the right place at the right to with a cricket ball.

It seems reasonable to expect that there's going to be some percentage of people out there who die when tasered even without drugs being involved. You are after all giving them repeated shocks sufficient to make them lose control of their movements, that's going to be a frightening and panic inducing experience.

You don't have time to check their medical history before you pull the trigger.

Let me put it this way: using the taser is safer than kicking someone's ass. Peanuts are deadlier.

And: LOL cricket.

Neildo
22nd March 09, 11:02 PM
I know there's a lot of research ongoing regarding this, and there's some correlation to chronic stimulant abuse. I think exposure to the taser is incidental to the condition. Usually, the call to 911 is "Naked Man shouting in the street" and when the police show up, dude throws down like a grizzly with a pepper up his ass. They don't typically get shot because, well, they're totally naked and unarmed. I know they typically disrobe completely because they feel so hot, and are irritated by things light bright light and loud noise - like safety lights and sirens, for example.

So - yeah. Kind of a mystery and my worst nightmare rolled into one.

this looks like a job for...

DUNDUNDUN DUNNNNNN

the beanbag shotgun!

Harpy
22nd March 09, 11:08 PM
Faggots would still complain and what about the potential risk of a tear in the bag and a bean lodging itself in someone's nostril (fatality) or causing a heart attack?

nihilist
22nd March 09, 11:13 PM
Faggots would still complain and what about the potential risk of a tear in the bag and a bean lodging itself in someone's nostril (fatality) or causing a heart attack?


Is it fairly common practice for nuns to speak of "faggots" complaining of potential tears in the bag?

Harpy
22nd March 09, 11:26 PM
I speak of wood faggots. Your other interpretations are only the product of a possessed mind.

nihilist
22nd March 09, 11:56 PM
Yes, that's what I was speaking of. Those faggots who give you wood.

socratic
23rd March 09, 04:13 PM
So when did attacking a police officer not become a felony?

Harpy
23rd March 09, 04:58 PM
^ + Goon's post.

The sort of precedent this sets is only going to make things worse for LEO's who are doing their job.

GuiltySpark
23rd March 09, 09:18 PM
The two 'sons' seem to me like their pricks. I don't know, just a feeling I get, maybe laughing when they came out of the court room.

I'm inclined to support the police officers side of it since their doing their job but on the other hand, if the police WERE actually using excessive force on one of my family members would I do the same?
Yup.
Would many of you?
Yup.

Bar fights are vicious, especially if you have the type of assholes who would take a cheap shot at a cop when his back is turned. When I'm in situations like that I'll usually lean towards more force than less.

But what's excessive? I wasn't there. Cops aren't infallable, maybe they went overboard.
If I saw a cop punch my wife like the one hit that 15 year old in the other video I'd send the cop to the hospital and I'd be put in jail.

All depends on the situaion I guess. Flying headbutt? That seems a little fucked up, seems like something a scrapper or someone used to fighting and causing shit would do.

mike321
23rd March 09, 11:55 PM
^ + Goon's post.

The sort of precedent this sets is only going to make things worse for LEO's who are doing their job.

Unfortunate but unavoidable. They were charged and found "not guilty". Just becauee some idiot in the future might think it is open season now in a completely different situation does not justify locking men up who are not guilty. This in no way sets a legal precedent, it just means that the jury thought they were justified, and I have seen no evidence to doubt the jury in this thread.

Feryk
24th March 09, 02:46 PM
Goon,

Tasers do kill people. Example:

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2007/11/14/bc-taservideo.html

Taser video shows RCMP shocked immigrant within 25 seconds of their arrival
Last Updated: Thursday, November 15, 2007 | 9:52 AM PT
CBC News
An eyewitness's video recording of a man dying after being stunned with a Taser by police on Oct. 14 at Vancouver International Airport has been released to the public.


Robert Dziekanski is jolted by a shot from an RCMP Taser.
(Paul Pritchard)
The 10-minute video recording clearly shows four RCMP officers talking to Robert Dziekanski while he is standing with his back to a counter and with his arms lowered by his sides, but his hands are not visible.

About 25 seconds after police enter the secure area where he is, there is a loud crack that sounds like a Taser shot, followed by Dziekanski screaming and convulsing as he stumbles and falls to the floor.

Another loud crack can be heard as an officer appears to fire one more Taser shot into Dziekanski.

As the officers kneel on top of Dziekanski and handcuff him, he continues to scream and convulse on the floor.

One officer is heard to say, "Hit him again. Hit him again," and there is another loud cracking sound.

Police have said only two Taser shots were fired, but a witness said she heard up to four Taser shots.


Robert Dziekanski falls to the floor as an RCMP officer looks on.
(Paul Pritchard)
A minute and half after the first Taser shot was fired Dziekanski stops moaning and convulsing and becomes still and silent.

Shortly after, the officers appear to be checking his condition and one officer is heard to say, "code red."

The video ends shortly after.

Minutes later, ambulance attendants arrived but their efforts to revive Dziekanski were unsuccessful and he was declared dead.

RCMP spokesman Cpl. Dale Carr said no one can judge what happened to Dziekanski by just watching the video.

"It's just one piece of evidence, one person's view. There are many people that we have spoken to," RCMP spokesman Cpl. Dale Carr said at a press conference Wednesday afternoon.


Four RCMP officers subdue Robert Dziekanski after stunning him with a Taser on Oct. 14 at Vancouver airport.(Paul Pritchard)
"What I urge is that those watching the video, take note of that. Put what they've seen aside for the time being. And wait to hear the totality of the evidence at the time of the inquest," Carr said.

But retired superintendent Ron Foyle, a 33-year veteran of the Vancouver police who saw the video tape, said he didn't know "why it ever became a police incident."

"It didn't seem that he made any threatening gestures towards them," Foyle said.

Much of the video was shot through the glass walls that separate the international arrivals lounge from a secure area outside the Canada Customs exit.

The video was recorded in three segments. The first segment shows Dziekanski before police arrive.

He is clearly agitated, yelling in Polish, and appears to be sweating. He can be seen taking office chairs and putting them in front of the security doors. He then picks up a small table, which he holds, while a woman in the arrivals lounge calmly speaks to him in apparent effort to calm him down.


Before police arrived, Robert Dziekanski picked up a small table and put it in the doorway between the customs exit area and a public lounge.
(Paul Pritchard)
In the second segment, Dziekanski picks up a computer and throws it to the ground. Three airport personnel arrive and block the exit from the secure area, but Dziekanski retreats inside and does not threaten them.

Officers arrive in lounge
Then four RCMP officers arrive in the lounge. Someone can be heard mentioning the word Tasers.

Someone replies, "Yes," as the officers approach the security doors.

Police have said repeatedly that there were only three RCMP officers involved in the incident, but the video shows four men in RCMP uniforms.

People in the lounge can be heard clearly telling the police Dziekanski speaks no English, only Russian. His mother later said he only spoke Polish.

Police enter the secure area with no problems and can be seen with Dziekanski standing calmly talking with officers. They appear to direct him to stand against a wall, which he does.

As he is standing there, one of the officers shoots him with a Taser.

RCMP officers have also said police did not use pepper spray because of the large number of people at the airport at the time. But the video shows Dziekanski standing alone with the four officers in an otherwise empty area, which is separated from the public area by a thick glass wall.

Pritchard hired lawyer

Paul Pritchard, right, accompanied by his lawyer, Paul Pearson, at a recent press conference, said that he feels police are trying to manipulate the truth.
(CBC)
Paul Pritchard shot the video with his digital camera, but afterward he surrendered it to police for their investigation on a promise that they would return it within 48 hours.

The next day, police told Pritchard they would not be returning the recording as promised.

Carr previously stated investigators kept the video longer than they anticipated in order to protect the integrity of the police investigation while they interviewed witnesses.

Saying he feared a coverup by police, Pritchard then engaged a lawyer to start legal proceedings to reclaim the recording. Police returned the recording to him on Wednesday.

Dziekanski, 40, died on Oct. 14, hours after he arrived at Vancouver International Airport. He was on his way to Kamloops to live with his mother in the B.C. Interior.


Robert Dziekanski with his mother Zofia Cisowski in Poland, before she emigrated to Canada.

The Polish immigrant arrived from Europe the previous day around 4 p.m., but for some unknown reason he did not clear customs until after midnight.

Dziekanski's mother had already returned home to Kamloops after waiting for several hours at the airport. She claims airport officials offered her no help locating her son.

The RCMP's integrated homicide investigation team, the B.C. coroner's service, the Vancouver International Airport Authority and the Commission for Public Complaints Against the RCMP are each conducting their own investigations into the incident


Also, the voltage varies somewhat

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2008/12/04/taser-tests.html

Some tested Tasers fire stronger current than company says: CBC/Radio-Canada probeLast Updated: Thursday, December 4, 2008 | 9:58 PM ET Comments307Recommend147CBC News
Some Tasers deliver a higher level of electricity than the manufacturer promises, reveals a series of tests on 41 stun guns that was commissioned by CBC News and Radio-Canada.

Three of the X26 Tasers tested by U.S.-based lab National Technical Systems as part of a CBC/Radio-Canada investigation into the devices. (CBC)
The abnormal X26 model Tasers were manufactured before 2005, prompting some scientists to suggest police should stop using any older versions of the stun guns until they can be tested.

Of the 41 Tasers tested, four delivered significantly more current than Taser International says is possible. In some cases, the current was up to 50 per cent stronger than specified on the devices.

TASER INTERNATIONAL OFFICIAL STATEMENT:
"TASER International has reviewed the testing results from the National Technology Systems study various TASER X26 electronic control devices as provided by the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation. The results from the testing are generally consistent with the specifications provided by TASER International and which would be expected from such tests.

TASER acknowledges that there are four data that appear to be outliers — instances where current increased as resistance increased which would not be expected based on the laws of physics. TASER International intends to contact NTS to suggest that the tests be repeated to verify the results.

TASER International appreciates the continued interest in TASER technology, and sincerely hope that the CBC report will focus on the proven injury reductions law enforcement experience with this technology rather than using engineering minutiae to confuse the viewer and create a false sense of controversy over a test that confirms the output of TASER X26s are consistent, and well below acceptable safety thresholds."
The tests, conducted by the U.S.-based lab National Technical Systems, used X26 Tasers from seven police departments in that country. Each weapon was fired at least six times.

Arizona-based Taser International makes virtually all the stun guns being used by police forces. The technical term for a stun gun is conductive energy weapon, or CEW. They are intended to incapacitate people with an electric shock.

The RCMP says it has pulled a random sample of some of the forces' Tasers for testing based on the results of the CBC News/Radio-Canada investigation.

"Given that you have raised this issue with us, we are taking steps to take CEWs out of our inventory devices that have deployed across the country, we are gathering up samples from each of our divisions, every province and every territory and we will have them independently tested," RCMP Commissioner William Elliott told CBC News at a recent policing event.

A force communications official, Supt. Tim Cogan, informed CBC News late Thursday that preliminary test results showed the sample of Tasers operated within the manufacturer's specifications.

Cogan said the tests were conducted at an accredited, independent laboratory in Ottawa, but didn't provide details on how many Tasers were tested or which lab conducted the analysis. The RCMP is still awaiting final test results.

"The RCMP recognizes that any use of force, including the CEW, carries risks, both to the public and to the police," Cogan said in a letter to CBC News.

"We do not take the use of force lightly. Ongoing assessment of the tools provided to our members and of the policies that guide their use is essential to mitigate these risks."

Pierre Savard, a biomedical engineering professor at École Polytechnique de Montréal, designed the technical procedure for the CBC's testing based on Taser International’s specifications.

Savard told CBC News it is scientifically significant that about nine per cent of the Tasers fired in the tests delivered more current than they are supposed to do, especially since he believes no one is verifying the company’s claims.

"I think it's important because Taser is not subjected to international standards," Savard said.

"When you use a cellphone, well, cellphones have to respect a set of standards … for the electric magnetic field that it emits. The Taser, well, nobody knows except Taser International."

Savard said the cause of the increased current could be either due to faulty quality control during the stun guns' manufacturing or electrical components that deteriorate with age.

The findings are troubling, since police officers are trained to aim a Taser at the chest, said Savard, who studies heart rhythms and how they are affected by electrical stimulation.

"When you combine an increased current intensity with a dart that falls right over the heart for somebody who has cardiovascular disease or other conditions such as using drugs, for example, it can all add up to a fatal issue," Savard said.

Malfunctioning Tasers
One of 44 X26 Tasers provided for testing by seven police departments in the United States. (CBC)Police forces across North America assure people that Tasers are safe. The manufacturer, Taser International, has said its product has a higher safety margin than Tylenol.

Taser International said they couldn’t provide someone for an interview before the CBC published results from the tests.

However, Magne Nerheim, Taser's vice-president of research and development, sent a written response to the results, in which he called the four malfunctioning Tasers an anomaly — one that could be explained if the weapons are not spark tested on a regular basis.

Nerheim also suggested the testing be repeated to verify the results. He made no comment about the age of the Tasers and whether there could be an issue of reliability.

During the tests commissioned by CBC News and Radio-Canada, three of the weapons didn't fire, even with charged battery packs. Those were set aside and not counted in the final results.

But a Taser that doesn't deploy can potentially create a safety issue for a police officer, Savard said.

"When we are talking about Tasers that don’t function, I think it is dangerous for the policeman who would try to use the Taser and the individual response can be aggressive," he said.

The CBC showed the results to several electrical engineers as a peer review of the analysis. They agreed that at the very least, the Tasers made before 2005 should not be used again until they are tested and proved reliable.

Kein Haar
24th March 09, 02:50 PM
I will summarize Feryk's article:

Tasers are the shit.

Money in the bizank.

Kein Haar
24th March 09, 02:52 PM
Goon, Lily,

If you're talking about a precedent of officers being hamstrung in protecting people from themselves....don't be so quick to complain.

The more I'm encouraged to wait and specate regarding mutual fighting at a bar the more lulz I will get. Footage on the dashcam is always fun to review later without some do-gooder trying to stop it.

My lulz = your priority. Remember that.

Feryk
24th March 09, 03:25 PM
I will summarize Feryk's article:

Tasers are the shit.

Money in the bizank.


Allow me:

Tasers HAVE killed people. And not just ones hopped up on drugs.

Tasers have VARYING degrees of voltage, shitty quality control AND the company may have covered it up.

Kein Haar
24th March 09, 03:40 PM
I'll paraphrase Feryk again.

Tsers r teh sht.

Feryk
24th March 09, 05:39 PM
I'll paraphrase Feryk again.

Tsers r teh sht.

I'll paraphrase Kein Haar:

Tasers make my job easier.

Harpy
24th March 09, 05:56 PM
And why not Feryk? Are you really of the opinion that law breakers are going to fight fair and that police need to adhere to some code of honour?

To be honest, the way I see it is, a handful of accidental deaths linked to tazing are a small price to pay for the greater good.

Cullion
24th March 09, 06:28 PM
I think tasers are a step in the right direction. After reading Equipoise's explanation of why the police shot a man who refused to put a knife down, I'd like to see them with longer range so that guns didn't have to be used as a substitute in situations like that.

Harpy
24th March 09, 06:57 PM
The more I'm encouraged to wait and specate regarding mutual fighting at a bar the more lulz I will get. Footage on the dashcam is always fun to review later without some do-gooder trying to stop it.

My lulz = your priority. Remember that.

You know I admire you (even if you wouldn't let me be on your mutinous pirate gang).

mrm1775
25th March 09, 12:13 AM
I think tasers are a step in the right direction. After reading Equipoise's explanation of why the police shot a man who refused to put a knife down, I'd like to see them with longer range so that guns didn't have to be used as a substitute in situations like that.Ask and ye shall receive!
http://www.taser.com/products/law/Pages/XREP.aspx
My department's rangemaster has a real hard-on to get his hands on some of these things.

And Feryk: Yes, there are a few cases of people dying after being tasered. People also die from baton strikes, choke holds, and face punches. The few freak occurrences you refer to don't change the fact that the taser is usually a much less dangerous tool than the alternatives. Also keep in mind that every cop who carries a taser was tasered themselves as part of the qualification requirement. To my knowledge, there has yet to be a fatality during certification, which lends credence to the "excited delerium" argument.

Or would you prefer that this tool be taken away from law enforcement so that they have to shoot people more often?

Neildo
25th March 09, 04:43 AM
they use those on heroes bzap you're done bitch lol

Feryk
25th March 09, 11:30 AM
And why not Feryk? Are you really of the opinion that law breakers are going to fight fair and that police need to adhere to some code of honour?

To be honest, the way I see it is, a handful of accidental deaths linked to tazing are a small price to pay for the greater good.


Nope, criminals will do what they do, and first and foremost cops need to survive. Just sayin' that Tasers can, do and have killed people. In the case above, it was because the guy was Tasered repeatedly. Not once. The four cops involved are on trial for it right now. From the media coverage, it looks like they totally mishandled the situation, but a judge will decide that.

Also sayin' that the company that makes Tasers does a SHIT job of quality control. They are now scrambling to cover their asses. For years they have sold their guns as a non lethal deterrent. Something that cops could use to put people down that they otherwise would've had to shoot.

Now it looks like instead of 50K volts, some of the guns were up to 50% more voltage than that. Some have LESS. How'd you like to be the cop with a Taser that only puts out 25K volts? There are allegations that they knew that they had a problem with their circuit boards, and didn't address it.

None of this is about cops, or how they do their job in general. I think Tasers are a great tool, and frankly, would rather be Tasered than shot if that's what it came down to. However, there are issues with them, and they are in the news right now.

Kein Haar
25th March 09, 11:32 AM
To paraphrase Feryk:

No issues.

Perfect devices.

Feryk
25th March 09, 11:34 AM
Exactly.