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View Full Version : Man may get death penalty in firefighters' deaths



elipson
18th March 09, 08:21 PM
http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/03/18/california.fire.death.penalty/index.html

Now I find this really interesting.

Not that I have any interest in defending an arsonist that killed 11 people, but doesn't 1st degree require intent to kill? Did they make the case that he intended on killing people when he set the fires?

I can see them making the argument that he intended to start the fire, which resulted in the deaths, and therefore he intended on the deaths, but would this chain of intention warrant the death penalty?

I'm not sure if I'm for or against this.

SFGOON
18th March 09, 08:31 PM
He intended to set the fire, a criminal act, which resulted in the death of another. This is called "transfer of intent" like when some knothead fires at the rival gangsta' bitch and instead hits the first-grader.

It's still murder, though I doubt the death penalty will be upheld in superior court.

Harpy
18th March 09, 08:55 PM
Elipson - I would hope that they can build a case for life imprisonment, as SFGoon said, I doubt the death penalty would be upheld.

Of course the death penalty would be a good deterrent for more firebugs (over 100 people perished in Australia just last month due to fires, some of which were started by arsonists).

Ka-Bar
18th March 09, 10:32 PM
Felony murder rule, no?

Domite
18th March 09, 10:48 PM
Of course the death penalty would be a good deterrent for more firebugs .

What makes you think that the death penalty would deter arsonists?

Harpy
18th March 09, 11:18 PM
Logic.

I now realise how that statement fails. I guess I'd just like to see them incinerated, tit for tat type thing.

Aphid Jones
18th March 09, 11:28 PM
It will deter the brain cells of potential arsonists from behaving abnormally.

How?

Omnipresent neuro-karma genies.

TheLordHumungus
19th March 09, 01:10 AM
It still astounds me that California still has the death penalty. Don't wanna stereotype, but you'd think they'd have been first to abolish it. I mean, it's California!

Neildo
19th March 09, 01:40 AM
like i usually say, punishment should fit the crime. douse him in lighter fluid, and flick a match at the fucker.

mrm1775
19th March 09, 02:55 AM
In most jurisdictions, any murder of two or more persons is classified as first degree, so this counts. I doubt the death penalty will be seriously considered, though.

Never been a fan myself, but I won't feel sorry for him if it happens.

nihilist
19th March 09, 03:17 AM
The only way to teach people that murder is wrong is by calmly executing them.

Sun Wukong
19th March 09, 07:50 AM
I'm all for it. Fuck him. What he did was clearly in reckless disregard for human life. Fuck 'em. let him fry.

Fearless Ukemi
19th March 09, 11:07 AM
Whatever is cheaper. Probably death.

Shawarma
19th March 09, 11:21 AM
Not really. All the appeals and shit rack up the costs.

elipson
19th March 09, 11:50 AM
In the US system, life is cheaper than death.

GuiltySpark
19th March 09, 01:11 PM
What about taking the organs of death row inmates and using them for the sick?

nihilist
19th March 09, 01:19 PM
You mean like chicken soup?

HappyOldGuy
19th March 09, 01:28 PM
What about taking the organs of death row inmates and using them for the sick?

http://variety-sf.blogspot.com/2007/11/larry-niven-jigsaw-man-chilling.html

elipson
19th March 09, 04:46 PM
You mean like china?

Fixed.

Sun Wukong
19th March 09, 06:11 PM
Fixed.


God damn it, this is an internet myth created by Fa Lun Gong. None of this shit is actually happening and there is quite literally no evidence of any of it.

Sun Wukong
19th March 09, 06:14 PM
Other things they've said include that the "fact" that western medicine is a product of evil and only works to destroy your inner Chi wheel and that aliens are indeed trying to take over the earth using your computers and the internet.

HappyOldGuy
19th March 09, 06:35 PM
God damn it, this is an internet myth created by Fa Lun Gong. None of this shit is actually happening and there is quite literally no evidence of any of it.

What the fuck are you talking about. They've admitted it. And they still do it. There isn't even any debate about that fact. There is debate about the allegations about who, how, consent, etc, but China harvests organs from prisoners. Period.

Yes, Falun Gong are wingnuts, but they aren't even close to the only source for this.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4921116.stm
http://www.cnn.com/CNN/Programs/anderson.cooper.360/blog/2006/06/ailing-americans-seek-chinese-organs.html

elipson
19th March 09, 07:14 PM
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article745119.ece
http://www.wma.net/e/press/2006_4.htm
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/84754.php

I stand by my fix. :P

FriendlyFire
22nd March 09, 06:29 PM
China harvests organs from prisoners

That is a great idea! Why aren't we doing it yet...

Keith
22nd March 09, 06:40 PM
It still astounds me that California still has the death penalty. Don't wanna stereotype, but you'd think they'd have been first to abolish it. I mean, it's California!
We also changed our state constitution to explicitly outlawed gay marriage. Our governor is Republican. California is not the liberal utopia that Fox News wants you to think it is.

Sun Wukong
22nd March 09, 07:26 PM
What the fuck are you talking about. They've admitted it. And they still do it. There isn't even any debate about that fact. There is debate about the allegations about who, how, consent, etc, but China harvests organs from prisoners. Period.
l (http://www.cnn.com/CNN/Programs/anderson.cooper.360/blog/2006/06/ailing-americans-seek-chinese-organs.html)


Consent being the operable word here. Allowing people, including those condemned to death, to donate their organs after death is hardly a human rights abuse.

Of course, there are going to be abuses of the system, it is China we are talking about here. But killing people just to get their organs is an entirely different sack of hammers and that is exactly what the rumor portion of this is that I was referring to.

Modern China is a lot like the 1920's and 1930's U.S. Private corporations have hired thugs, money laundering and bribery are common place and criminals abuse the system from within. The PRC has many problems both cultural and political in nature, but the government does not make an official policy of the vast majority of crimes they are accused of.

However, this is not to say that there isn't tacit and indirect support from many of their governmental officials, but then again, George Wallace referred to African Americans as sub-human while still in office. You wouldn't see such a brazen statement of racism in China from a prominent official even if he did indeed share the sentiment.

Their cultural brand of conservative anti-progressive propaganda is usually cloaked in words cribbed from the little red bible.

The thing that really bothers me is that what westerners take for granted as cultural problems in their own countries, they have a tendency to project on other countries as matters their entire nation and society are guilty of without regard to cultural complications.

Do all Americans share responsibility and blame for the actions of Richard Nixon, LBJ, Woodrow Wilson, Harry Truman and GW Bush uniformly? Do we share the blame for the actions of hate mongers like Wallace and David Duke? No. Resolutely no. These are the unfortunate consequences of diversity meeting up with ignorance, but are by their nature are no means uniform in our entire culture.

Saying that China harvests organs from Prisoners is like saying that Americans harvest organs from innocent men, women and children.

What should be addressed here is not the practice of donating organs, but corruption within the ranks of government officials that allow abuses of policies to take place.

The real conflict here is with the notorious corruption within the PRC government both real and imagined. Some corruption is part of the nature of having only one recognized political party and other corruption is due to the nature of the Chinese political environment.

The PRC is less than a hundred years old. Our own nation was still engaging in completely barbarous and inequitable acts against it's own citizens for much longer than that.

This is not to say that the acts of corrupt members of PRC government are excusable, but let's not make the mistake of taking it out of context where these are indeed mostly the acts of criminals by their own government's laws.

The tedious line of division between government sanction and criminality is maintained by the malleable nature of law enforcement in China.

Whereas some laws are quite black and white, many others can be avoided entirely, and some laws are designed to be paradoxical in nature where some kinds of common everyday actions necessary to do business are automatically illegal thus forcing businesses to have closer relationships to local governing bodies; allowing the government to exercise greater control over what should be private industry.

elipson
22nd March 09, 07:49 PM
Consent being the operable word here. Allowing people, including those condemned to death, to donate their organs after death is hardly a human rights abuse.

Of course, there are going to be abuses of the system, it is China we are talking about here. But killing people just to get their organs is an entirely different sack of hammers and that is exactly what the rumor portion of this is that I was referring to.

Modern China is a lot like the 1920's and 1930's U.S. Private corporations have hired thugs, money laundering and bribery are common place and criminals abuse the system from within. The PRC has many problems both cultural and political in nature, but the government does not make an official policy of the vast majority of crimes they are accused of.

However, this is not to say that there isn't tacit and indirect support from many of their governmental officials, but then again, George Wallace referred to African Americans as sub-human while still in office. You wouldn't see such a brazen statement of racism in China from a prominent official even if he did indeed share the sentiment.

Their cultural brand of conservative anti-progressive propaganda is usually cloaked in words cribbed from the little red bible.

The thing that really bothers me is that what westerners take for granted as cultural problems in their own countries, they have a tendency to project on other countries as matters their entire nation and society are guilty of without regard to cultural complications.

Do all Americans share responsibility and blame for the actions of Richard Nixon, LBJ, Woodrow Wilson, Harry Truman and GW Bush uniformly? Do we share the blame for the actions of hate mongers like Wallace and David Duke? No. Resolutely no. These are the unfortunate consequences of diversity meeting up with ignorance, but are by their nature are no means uniform in our entire culture.

Saying that China harvests organs from Prisoners is like saying that Americans harvest organs from innocent men, women and children.

What should be addressed here is not the practice of donating organs, but corruption within the ranks of government officials that allow abuses of policies to take place.

The real conflict here is with the notorious corruption within the PRC government both real and imagined. Some corruption is part of the nature of having only one recognized political party and other corruption is due to the nature of the Chinese political environment.

The PRC is less than a hundred years old. Our own nation was still engaging in completely barbarous and inequitable acts against it's own citizens for much longer than that.

This is not to say that the acts of corrupt members of PRC government are excusable, but let's not make the mistake of taking it out of context where these are indeed mostly the acts of criminals by their own government's laws.

The tedious line of division between government sanction and criminality is maintained by the malleable nature of law enforcement in China.

Whereas some laws are quite black and white, many others can be avoided entirely, and some laws are designed to be paradoxical in nature where some kinds of common everyday actions necessary to do business are automatically illegal thus forcing businesses to have closer relationships to local governing bodies; allowing the government to exercise greater control over what should be private industry.


...so.......


involuntary harvesting of prisoner organs does/does not happen? Officially or illegaly?

HappyOldGuy
22nd March 09, 09:01 PM
You need to unwrap your lips from the PRC's dick SW. It doesn't matter whether they "consent" by signing some piece of paper or not. A guy in prison is too easily coerced or manipulated for the word to have a meaning.

No other country in the world allows this because every other country in the world recognizes that consent by a death row prisoner is a sick fucking joke.

China also openly admits to selling the organs, which is also illegal in almost every other country.

Sun Wukong
23rd March 09, 08:46 AM
So, you didn't read any of the negative shit I've ever said, and have said in that thread about the PRC? I do not like or admire the PRC government. It is however a sovereign nation whose government is well within it's rights to make it's own laws.

Allowing or encouraging or coercing a guy on death row to donate his organs postmortem is hardly goulish in comparison to many of it's other punishments. You can get the death penalty for selling pot in that country. That's a lot more fucked up if you ask me given their cultural appreciation for alcohol and tobacco.




It doesn't matter whether they "consent" by signing some piece of paper or not. A guy in prison is too easily coerced or manipulated for the word to have a meaning.

No other country in the world allows this because every other country in the world recognizes that consent by a death row prisoner is a sick fucking joke.

I hate to break it to you, but that just doesn't matter to me. It's not like they're killing people just to put them through a human chop shop; contrary to popular belief.

Let's back up for a minute shall we. As soon as I disagree with one of you homo's about what china has or hasn't done wrong I'm suddenly a commie, except all the times I criticize them.

It reminds me of a quotation: When I feed the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist.

Do me a favor, and wash the McCarthyism out of brain for a minute and stop drawing mental alliances between me and a government that I have no love for.



China also openly admits to selling the organs, which is also illegal in almost every other country.
I'm not extremely familiar so I'd have to take your word on it, but somehow I doubt it as China doesn't like to admit to much of anything controversial in nature.