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View Full Version : Krazee Maniacs Go Krazee, Shoot Everyone



Zendetta
11th March 09, 06:07 PM
As you must know, I'm pretty pro-gun. To be more precise, I believe in Individual Soveriegnty, and that certainly includes the right to own the tools that deliver the deadly force required for self protection.

But I'll also be the first to admit that guns can be very, very dangerous.

Dateline Alabama: Michael Maclendon, employed by the local sausage plant, just shot the shit out of a bunch of people. I'm sure we all know people who are "sausage crazy" but I'm sure you'll agree this is excessive.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29623587/

Now, on one hand, this happened in a small southern town, so we cannot fall back on that old chestnut of "if some gun owners had been around".

Then again, he had trained to be a cop and was briefly employed by the PD, which takes some of the starch out of the arguemnt that the agents of the state should have a monopoly on deadly force.

But wait! There's more!

Zendetta
11th March 09, 06:12 PM
Dateline Krautsland: The Frankish equivalent to the Columbine Kids. A Chronic underacheiver managed to achieve a rather high body count after stealing his father's unsecured pistol.

THey say he played a lot of CounterStrike and most of his victims were women or girls, so I think I've got him psychologically profiled.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29630925/

Phrost
11th March 09, 06:12 PM
You know Dick Holder is just salivating for the "right" gun crime to take place so he can push through his statist agenda.

Zendetta
11th March 09, 06:13 PM
Oh, for sure. If Columbine happened now, it'd be time to bury the SKS in the backyard.

HappyOldGuy
11th March 09, 06:21 PM
Article says he used an assault rifle.

I'd start digging.

Sun Wukong
11th March 09, 07:02 PM
You know Dick Holder is just salivating for the "right" gun crime to take place so he can push through his statist agenda.


... is there seriously a politician with the name "Dick Holder" ? Because, the humor value in a name like that is astoundingly high.

Zendetta
11th March 09, 07:09 PM
He's referring to the new AG, Eric Holder.

EuropIan
11th March 09, 07:11 PM
Thank you for being so balanced on this issue, Zen.

WarPhalange
11th March 09, 10:47 PM
Sad. I don't care about the gun issues in this case. These people were disturbed and I'm sad that nobody around them noticed or at least cared enough to do something about it. That would have stopped them from shooting anybody before they could even get a gun.

The German kid, though, geez. Shooting only girls and women makes it kind of obvious just how big of a loser he was.

MrBadGuy
11th March 09, 11:01 PM
See, that's why if I ever go crazy, I'm going to go on a stabbing spree and not ruin guns for everyone else.

The Twitcher
11th March 09, 11:32 PM
See, that's why if I ever go crazy, I'm going to go on a stabbing spree and not ruin guns for everyone else.

That's nice of you. I thought a machete would be better, but I see that some dumb bitch in NYC is trying to ban those.

mrm1775
12th March 09, 12:08 AM
See, that's why if I ever go crazy, I'm going to go on a stabbing spree and not ruin guns for everyone else.They happen. (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2008287389_apasskoreastabbingspree.html)

jubei33
12th March 09, 03:21 AM
we had one of those last June (http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/asiapcf/06/08/japan.stabbing.spree/index.html) in Japan too.


TOKYO, Japan (CNN) -- A man ran over a group of people with his truck and then stabbed 18, killing at least 7, in a video game district of downtown Tokyo Sunday afternoon, according to a Tokyo fire official.

The dead included five men -- three aged 19, 47 and 74 -- and a woman, according to a Tokyo metropolitan police officer. The gender of the seventh person was not immediately known. Eleven others were wounded, police said, with two critically injured.

"The suspect told police that he came to Akihabara to kill people," Jiro Akaogi, a spokesman for the Tokyo Metropolitan Police Department, told The Associated Press.

"He said he was tired of life. He said he was sick of everything," Akaogi added.

Authorities said the man drove a rented truck into a crowd, jumped from the vehicle and then began stabbing the people he had knocked down, AP reported.

Japanese media reported that the suspect told investigators he was 25 years old.
advertisement

Nearly 20 ambulances rushed to the scene, with television footage showing rescue workers tending to victims in the street.

The Akihabara district, where the attack took place, specializes in electronic gadgets and video games and is popular with people interested in comic books and distinctive fashion.

I read an article a while back that some guy tried to connect pats and present crime sprees to the level of lead in the environment. I'm going to go look that up and post it, interesting article.

Zendetta
12th March 09, 11:49 AM
See, that's why if I ever go crazy, I'm going to go on a stabbing spree and not ruin guns for everyone else.

Its certainly been done. There were killing sprees before guns, that's for sure.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Running_amok

Shawarma
12th March 09, 02:01 PM
Funny you should mention that. Back in the 50ies, my dad lived in Malaysia, working as a wog-slapper, coolie slavemaster and thief of natural resources for a major company. He once sat on a jury that sentenced an amokrunner to death. Guy had been a normal, everyday guy, no harm to anyone, then suddenly went apeshit crazy one day and took out his long pent-up frustrations on his village with a blade.
I THINK my dad used to say that it was because keeping face in Malay society is so important many people showed zero outward emotion, which resulted in the occasional total psychotic breakdown. Or I may be confusing that story with something else...

MrBadGuy
12th March 09, 10:56 PM
Jesus Christ guys, I was joking. I'm not going to go amokrunning.



Yet.

WarPhalange
12th March 09, 11:08 PM
Running is for losers. Get a bike.

Stick
13th March 09, 12:12 AM
Yeah, apparently one of the possible motives being kicked around by investigators in Alabama is that the guy lost his job.

Recession not only equals increased crime but increased crazy crime.

Phrost
13th March 09, 07:25 AM
See, that's why if I ever go crazy, I'm going to go on a stabbing spree and not ruin guns for everyone else.

I think I'd figure out a way to go on a killing spree with mayonnaise or ranch dressing. Talk about shit that needs to be banned...

EuropIan
13th March 09, 07:47 AM
I think I'd figure out a way to go on a killing spree with mayonnaise or ranch dressing. Talk about shit that needs to be banned...
You open a restaurant (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHyzf2X-BH4)

kracker
13th March 09, 08:22 AM
Guns are dangerous, here's another unprovoked violent shooting. http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapi..._grand_va.html

EuropIan
13th March 09, 08:30 AM
Guns are dangerous, here's another unprovoked violent shooting. http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapi..._grand_va.html
Let me fix that link for you (http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/index.ssf/2009/03/shooting_of_grand_valley_state.html)


I will say that "amok-style" shootings happen in the US more often because taking the law into one's own hands is a more accepted norm than other palces.


This is good and bad.

Cullion
13th March 09, 04:30 PM
In the UK when a crazy person wants to go on a spree they have to use an illegal firearm. Luckily these are only available to criminals.

Cullion
13th March 09, 04:34 PM
Let me fix that link for you (http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/index.ssf/2009/03/shooting_of_grand_valley_state.html)


I will say that "amok-style" shootings happen in the US more often because taking the law into one's own hands is a more accepted norm than other palces.


This is good and bad.

I don't know about that. There are other societies with a sort of individualist 'frontiersman' component to their national psyche with much lower murder rates.

I agree with Michael Moore when he pointed at a slightly paranoid strain in the American psyche. I just think he missed a beat and turned it into an anti-gun argument when he looked at the other societies that allow gun ownership yet didn't have anything like the murder rate.

It's almost like he started out wanting to show that firearms ownership was bad, found that it was fine in a lot of places and that there was something in American public life, or media which was making people a bit more paranoid and aggressive and then just kind of ignored it to try to prop up his original argument.

HappyOldGuy
13th March 09, 04:38 PM
I don't know about that. There are other societies with a sort of individualist 'frontiersman' component to their national psyche with much lower murder rates.

I agree with Michael Moore when he pointed at a slightly paranoid strain in the American psyche. I just think he missed a beat and turned it into an anti-gun argument when he looked at the other societies that allow gun ownership yet didn't have anything like the murder rate.

It's almost like he started out wanting to show that firearms ownership was bad, found that it was fine in a lot of places and that there was something in American public life, or media which was making people a bit more paranoid and aggressive and then just kind of ignored it to try to prop up his original argument.
Sometimes I think I saw a different movie than other people. It seems to me like he started with the assumption that there was something wrong with the american psyche, and our fascination with guns was an effect rather than a cause, and made a that his case.

Anyhow, he was wrong about the psyche part, but that's another argument.

Spade: The Real Snake
13th March 09, 04:38 PM
I think I'd figure out a way to go on a killing spree with mayonnaise or ranch dressing. Talk about shit that needs to be banned...

Perhaps the safest of all medicines (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1982_Chicago_Tylenol_murders)?

Cullion
13th March 09, 04:52 PM
Sometimes I think I saw a different movie than other people. It seems to me like he started with the assumption that there was something wrong with the american psyche, and our fascination with guns was an effect rather than a cause, and made a that his case.

I'm thinking of the parts where he compares murder rates in other countries, notes that some of them allow widespread gun ownership and the part where compares attitudes and perceptions of ordinary people walking around in Windsor and Detroit (cuz it's easy for people from each place to visit the other).

Marylin Manson of all people impressed me in that movie. Maybe he's wrong too, but his analysis of how the modern American mass media seems to titillate the customers by inculcating fear seemed spot on to me.



Anyhow, he was wrong about the psyche part, but that's another argument.

I don't know the answer, I've never crossed the Atlantic, but it just seems like he found something and then backed away from it because he started out meaning to say gun control was needed, and decided to push his genuine finding aside to press on with what he wanted to prove to begin with. More of an internal inconsistency than me claiming to know how America and Americans really are.

As I've said before, the only Americans I've got to know in person are much, much more like you than the heartland gun-collecting demographic we're talking about. College students and people who work in software and live in the big cities on the coasts etc..

HappyOldGuy
13th March 09, 04:56 PM
What he backed away from consciously or subconsciously is that it really is all about race and class, but mostly race. That raises more questions than it answers, but it's not a conversation someone like Moore is going to touch.

Cullion
13th March 09, 05:03 PM
Oh you mean those FBI stats that reputedly show that murder rates in rural mostly white towns are in line with Europe whereas the homicide stats from black ghettos skew the homicide stats for the whole US massively ?

I don't know if this is true, but it's commonly referenced on white seperatist/supremacist websites.

ICY
13th March 09, 05:06 PM
As far as Moore's arguement goes, he liked using Canada as an example...except that Canadian gun ownership is less than 1/4 per capita than American gun ownership.

Also, Zendetta, your SKS is probably safe...you can still buy those here in Canada without much problem.

Zendetta
13th March 09, 05:09 PM
What he backed away from consciously or subconsciously is that it really is all about race and class, but mostly race. That raises more questions than it answers, but it's not a conversation someone like Moore is going to touch.

Which is too bad, because you can't make sense of american violence while ducking that drive-by, full-auto AK fussilade.

Quikfeet509
13th March 09, 05:26 PM
Perhaps the safest of all medicines (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1982_Chicago_Tylenol_murders)?


Tylenol is hardly a safe medicine.


It just happens to be OTC.





As for gun-banning fearmongering, I wish I had opened a chain of gun stores. The markups have to be amazing versus several years ago, especially on ammo.

HappyOldGuy
13th March 09, 05:27 PM
Oh you mean those FBI stats that reputedly show that murder rates in rural mostly white towns are in line with Europe whereas the homicide stats from black ghettos skew the homicide stats for the whole US massively ?

I don't know if this is true, but it's commonly referenced on white seperatist/supremacist websites.
That's me!

But obviously, that's why he isn't going near it.

Of course one of the many really hard questions that raises is, is that just obscuring the fact that every country has a "segment" that produces most of it's violence, and ours is just more color coded.

Zendetta
13th March 09, 05:47 PM
iirc, Moore waddles close to that point, but then goes into Troll Mode and shifts the discussion to "lol, racism".

Cullion
14th March 09, 04:12 PM
Alright, let's finish the fatman's work for him.

I have a couple of good friends who live in the San Francisco area, but I've never really asked them about crime. I know they both can afford to live in upscale neighbourhoods and send their kids to private schools, so they probably don't encounter it much. I have one good friend who's lived in Washington DC and now New York, but his circumstances are simillar.

Neither HoG nor Zendetta seem to have a racist bone in them, but you both acknowledge what Moore was shying away from and you both have personal experience living in big american cities which I assume have 'ghettoes' of some kind.

Give me the real picture. You both have different political outlooks and strike me as honest, so I think I'll be able to pick out some unbiased truth from the bits you both agree on.

Let's follow this and see where it goes.

HappyOldGuy
14th March 09, 05:07 PM
I don't think Zen and I actually disagree on all that much, I just give him shit for his Heinleinian tendencies. To the extent there's a difference, it's probably just the level of compassion fatigue/frustration/etc. It also might be the differences in experience. I've lived/worked in some of the worst shitholes in San Francisco (Shotwell St, Turk and Taylor) but they were multiracially fucked up. I think zens experience in Oakland was probably more "black and white."

As far as causes, my experience (when I worked with folks getting out of prison) really made me think that it does all start with the family. It's a cliche, and it's not 100% of the story, but the people I worked with almost never came from stable families. Unfortunately, a combination of racism, economics, and bad social welfare policies raised multiple generations of inner city kids without fathers. And they live in communities that just aren't attached to the mainstream culture. You've got kids in west oakland who never go east of market street. It's incredibly tough for folks outside to reach in. The change really has to come from within. It's totally not fair, "hey, we fucked up your community, now go fix it." But it is the only way it's going to happen. The best we can do as outsiders is to try and support the folks inside who are doing things that work.

anyways, some random musings.

EuropIan
14th March 09, 05:26 PM
^School shooting kids are predominantly white

HappyOldGuy
14th March 09, 05:31 PM
^School shooting kids are predominantly white
In terms of overall murders, you can pretty easily lose them in the noise.

Also, they seem pretty internaitonal.

Cullion
14th March 09, 05:34 PM
^School shooting kids are predominantly white

HoG's got this covered. Statistically insignificant.

EuropIan
14th March 09, 06:48 PM
I thought we were specifically talking about armed killing sprees and not violent armed crime in general?

Cullion
14th March 09, 06:52 PM
I thought we were specifically talking about armed killing sprees and not violent armed crime in general?

Yeah, it kind of got derailed into talking about gun control, because subconsciously everbody can see that these white-kid school slayings are just project MkUltra operations to give a justification to deprive the white man of firearms so that we can all be rounded up and used as food for the Illuminati.

What are you looking at ? don't pretend you weren't thinking it.

EuropIan
14th March 09, 06:57 PM
I'll grant you that.

well it is true that this is the natural progression of guns and politics threads

shooting -> control? -> Crime! -> causes? -> racism!? -> THE MAN

Cullion
14th March 09, 08:00 PM
If I try to step back and analyse the original subject more clearly I'd start by saying that guns were more available in the past, but kids go homicidally nuts now in a way that they didn't apparently used to. What's with that ?

Shawarma
14th March 09, 08:08 PM
I think Columbine has a lot to do with it. Harris and Klebold really did start a revolution like they wanted to.

Cullion
14th March 09, 08:09 PM
Good point. Maybe they were right?

Shawarma
14th March 09, 08:14 PM
About what? I wasn't aware they had an agenda other than ending their horrible go-nowhere lives and taking down all the fucks who'd made their lives hell at school with them.

I've actually been thinking about school shootings lately - Say you get picked on in school, you go apeshit, shoot all your bullies and then yourself. You wake up in hell with all your bullies standing around you and will now get your ass kicked till ragnarok by the same people you wanted to escape from in life.

A sadistically amusing thought, IMO.

mrm1775
14th March 09, 08:48 PM
I think Columbine has a lot to do with it. Harris and Klebold really did start a revolution like they wanted to.I think you're on the right track here. The news media really milks these particular crimes for all they're worth. I think it is just an extreme form of attention seeking behavior.

Cullion
14th March 09, 08:51 PM
So, why did it start happening and what's the cure ?

Wounded Ronin
14th March 09, 09:26 PM
Make fistfights socially acceptable again.

HappyOldGuy
14th March 09, 11:05 PM
The thing is, it's not like it took a rocket scientist to come up with the idea.. I knew people back in high school who thought abut it. They had guns. They even brought guns to school to scare the bullies with. But there was no way in a million years they were ever going to act on it. They were missing a serious miswire that (at least one of) the columbine kids had.

Cullion
15th March 09, 07:03 AM
Are there any historical accounts of this kind of thing happening before, say, 1980 ?

EuropIan
15th March 09, 07:07 AM
in America?

Because: Charles Whitman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Whitman)

Cullion
15th March 09, 07:08 AM
Well, anywhere I supposed. I'm thinking specifically about school kids though.

EuropIan
15th March 09, 07:10 AM
Charles Whitman and the 'Running Amok' phenomena

Oh yeah, that's totally a band now.

Kein Haar
15th March 09, 07:37 AM
This is a different dynamic than Chuck Whitman.

He went down blasting at cops.

None of these tools can take direct confrontation. They kill themselves well before that could ever happen.

EuropIan
15th March 09, 07:48 AM
The colombine kids also shot at the cops..

Kein Haar
15th March 09, 07:52 AM
You're splitting hairs.

I'm talking about exit strategies.

If Chuck ran out of ammo, I bet he would have done a final bayonet charge.

The suicides of today's pussies are basically analogues to hitting reset on a video game. Ok, I'm done...scared now. k thnx bye

EuropIan
15th March 09, 08:09 AM
So you're saying todays youth lack true grit? Because I can follow that

However, in the case of colombine, if their suicide was premeditated then I wouldn't compare it to a video game reset button, but rather a griefing session.

Shawarma
15th March 09, 09:09 AM
You know this situation: You and your friends have gone to the pool, but the water looks really, really cold. You stand around bitching at each other for a while until somebody mans up and jumps in. Then you all jump in like lemmings.

I think Klebold and Harris were the first guys to jump in the pool. After Columbine and the massive media exposure of the motives of the two killers, hundreds of nerdy, ostracised losers all across the US thought "Hey, maybe those dudes were right. I don't have to spend every day getting picked on by jocks and laughed at by girls only to graduate and be an office slave for until I die. I can go out like a motherfucking berserker, finding ultimate satisfaction in ending all those who caused me pain."

And the rest is history.

I agree, media exposure is the main reason. If the coverage of Columbine had amounted to "earlier today, two kids shot about 30 people in a high school somewhere, killing 12. And now, sport", school shootings would never have become trendy, IMO.

And just to make the thread nerdier: http://www.columbinegame.com/
For those interested in playing Columbine as a JRPG. It's actually good, depicts the despair of Klebold and Harris well and seems pretty well researched.

Wounded Ronin
15th March 09, 10:32 AM
You know this situation: You and your friends have gone to the pool, but the water looks really, really cold. You stand around bitching at each other for a while until somebody mans up and jumps in. Then you all jump in like lemmings.

I think Klebold and Harris were the first guys to jump in the pool. After Columbine and the massive media exposure of the motives of the two killers, hundreds of nerdy, ostracised losers all across the US thought "Hey, maybe those dudes were right. I don't have to spend every day getting picked on by jocks and laughed at by girls only to graduate and be an office slave for until I die. I can go out like a motherfucking berserker, finding ultimate satisfaction in ending all those who caused me pain."

And the rest is history.

I agree, media exposure is the main reason. If the coverage of Columbine had amounted to "earlier today, two kids shot about 30 people in a high school somewhere, killing 12. And now, sport", school shootings would never have become trendy, IMO.

And just to make the thread nerdier: http://www.columbinegame.com/
For those interested in playing Columbine as a JRPG. It's actually good, depicts the despair of Klebold and Harris well and seems pretty well researched.

Oh yeah, I played the Columbine game through when it came out. It's is extremely entertaining and I'd recommend it to everyone.

TM
15th March 09, 11:47 AM
Yeah, it kind of got derailed into talking about gun control, because subconsciously everbody can see that these white-kid school slayings are just project MkUltra operations to give a justification to deprive the white man of firearms so that we can all be rounded up and used as food for the Illuminati.

What are you looking at ? don't pretend you weren't thinking it.,

Chapman, Tulloch and Parker neatly fit in to that idea.

Cullion
15th March 09, 11:49 AM
what?

HappyOldGuy
15th March 09, 12:00 PM
Oh yeah, I played the Columbine game through when it came out. It's is extremely entertaining and I'd recommend it to everyone.

Plus having it in your effects will help people make sense of everything afterwards.

Zendetta
16th March 09, 01:06 PM
I'm too pushed for time to do justice to this topic right now; this'll be quick.


As far as causes, my experience (when I worked with folks getting out of prison) really made me think that it does all start with the family. It's a cliche, and it's not 100% of the story, but the people I worked with almost never came from stable families. Unfortunately, a combination of racism, economics, and bad social welfare policies raised multiple generations of inner city kids without fathers. And they live in communities that just aren't attached to the mainstream culture. You've got kids in west oakland who never go east of market street. It's incredibly tough for folks outside to reach in. The change really has to come from within. It's totally not fair, "hey, we fucked up your community, now go fix it." But it is the only way it's going to happen.

I agree with a lot of this, especially the assessment of fatherless children getting knocked up and shooting each other. Also share the somewhat sad assessment that change must come from within - I'm pretty sure that Forty Acres and a Mule ain't coming.


The best we can do as outsiders is to try and support the folks inside who are doing things that work.

I disagree somewhat with this. Seeing ourselves as powerless outsiders means we are seeing them as separate, rather than seeing us all as apart of a bigger society.

We do need to support those who are doing the building. We also need to firmly sanction those who are tearing it all down, without falling into the trap of being a politically correct apologist for barbarism.

I think the best thing we can do is to stand up for and represent the principles and values we believe in without apology, double standard, or "white guilt".

Zendetta
16th March 09, 01:10 PM
PS - never read Heinlein!

Kein Haar
17th March 09, 09:40 AM
Why not?

Zendetta
17th March 09, 10:44 AM
LOL. "Read" pronounced "red", not "read" pronounced "reed".

I mean to say "I have never read Heinlein", as opposed to "For the Love of God, please think of the Children and don't read that hack Heinlein!"

Kein Haar
17th March 09, 10:46 AM
That exchange could have been in Reader's Digest.

HappyOldGuy
17th March 09, 11:15 AM
I mean to say "I have never read Heinlein", as opposed to "For the Love of God, please think of the Children and don't read that hack Heinlein!"

This was actually the subject of dinner conversation between me and a teacher friend recently.

She was of the opinion that Heinlein warped kids minds, despite having been a huge fan herself.

My feeling was that the big H was a mentally strengthening exercise for the people who would read it, and then start to question and debate his arguments. His stuff is a good mental workout for a middle school/high school kid. Yes, tragically some defectives wouldn't get to that point and it could serve as a gateway drug for Ayn Rand books, but I figure they were gonna join some wacky cult or another anyways.

Wounded Ronin
17th March 09, 08:07 PM
Hein-lowned!

Sun Wukong
17th March 09, 08:20 PM
Breaking News! NRA Outraged!

f8XcVc_0ykU

mrm1775
18th March 09, 12:53 AM
Breaking News! NRA Outraged!

f8XcVc_0ykUYou know, its exactly because of ridiculous caricatures like this that gun owners get so much shit from ignorant douchebags on the left.