PDA

View Full Version : The decline of Britain.



Pages : [1] 2

Cullion
8th March 09, 02:51 PM
I often bemoan the state of our country, and some people have expressed an interest either on the forum, or in private correspondance for me to explain in a bit more detail exactly what's going on here in the UK.

I've kicked the idea of making a dedicated 'what's happening to the UK and why?' thread for a while. Truculent Sheep made the good point that it would be too easy to turn such a post into a long-winded rant that meanders around bits of history etc.. which I would find very hard to have time to write, and most people wouldn't have time to read.

So I'm going to do it piecemeal using current news articles giving examples of our national troubles, and respond to as many questions as I can, and occasionally pause to summarize what I think's happening, why it started and where it might lead us.

Other people who find pertinent articles please feel free to post them in this thread too.

I'm going to start with an example of the warped thinking of some of our municipal social services departments.

A couple with young children kindly took in an 18-year old through a local social services scheme to help young adults emerging from the childcare system with no family to support them. He then went on to sexually assault their nine year old daughter and rape their 3 year old son.

A terribly sad and unfortunate affair you might think.

The 18 year old in question was known to the social work team to have committed several simillar offences in the past. Not only did they still think it would be OK to place him with a family containing 2 young children, but they kept his background of sex abuse secret from the couple who took him in in order to protect his 'human rights'.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/teenager-placed-with-family-raped-toddler-1636016.html

Robot Jesus
8th March 09, 03:03 PM
do you see a root cause for all of this?

Cullion
8th March 09, 03:05 PM
do you see a root cause for all of this?

You mean specifically for the kind of strange decision making seen by some of our social services departments ? Or the broader national decline I'm talking about ?

Robot Jesus
8th March 09, 03:18 PM
both

Cullion
8th March 09, 03:29 PM
The broader decline has complex causes I'd like to leave for now until I've shown more examples of our country's problems and tried to give more specific analysis of what's broken in each case.

In this specific case, the department in question have admitted culpability and are investigating exactly how this decision was reached.

Social services in this country suffer from a range of problems:-

i) High case loads per social worker.

ii) Patchy recruitment quality for social workers. I'm sure there are many fine social workers. I have also personally met several extremely lazy social workers with substance abuse issues.

iii) Crank left-wing political ideologies endemic. I'm not talking about liberal views like HoG's or SWK's. I'm talking about extreme political-correct variants of marxist thought that sees everything in circumstantially deterministic terms and reflexively sides with the apparent 'underdog'.

iv) In some cases the social workers are simply acting within broken legislative guidelines passed to them by our law makers (or in some cases EU directives).

elipson
8th March 09, 04:12 PM
I think the social worker thing might be more representative of the field than of the country. We have all those problems in Canada as well. The field seems to attract unstable people.

Liffguard
8th March 09, 04:38 PM
iii) Crank left-wing political ideologies endemic. I'm not talking about liberal views like HoG's or SWK's. I'm talking about extreme political-correct variants of marxist thought that sees everything in circumstantially deterministic terms and reflexively sides with the apparent 'underdog'.

This is just me thinking out loud rather than a fully-supported argument, but if I had to select one core reason for most of the country's current social problems then this would be pretty high on my list. It started off as a predominantly New Labour phenomenon but now it seems to be prevalent throughout the political scene; the basic idea that every problem is a result of large social injustices and never the result of personal choices. What this seems to lead to is a political class that believes it can legislate all problems out of existence and a general social climate where everyone thinks they're a victim.

HappyOldGuy
8th March 09, 04:56 PM
This is where it gets hard to tell things out of their context. In the US, I would mock such a claim mercilessly. Not because that kind of idiocy doesn't exist here. It does, especially on college campuses and schools in general. But it has been driven completely out of the mainstream. Nowadays for the most part it's something that people are accused of thinking rather than being something that they actually think.

But that is a specific historical change in the US, that may not translate that well.

Cullion
8th March 09, 04:56 PM
Yes Liffguard, that's one of the problems behind a lot of our country's troubles.

Is it time to look at a different problem, or do people want to look at our weird social services decisions in more depth ?

Cullion
8th March 09, 05:02 PM
This is where it gets hard to tell things out of their context. In the US, I would mock such a claim mercilessly. Not because that kind of idiocy doesn't exist here. It does, especially on college campuses and schools in general. But it has been driven completely out of the mainstream. Nowadays for the most part it's something that people are accused of thinking rather than being something that they actually think.

But that is a specific historical change in the US, that may not translate that well.

I do not know much about how social services work in the US. If you would like I can provide several more desperately sad examples of children get raped and/or murdered as a direct result of social services incompetence and/or warped victimology.

Can you envision a US municipal social services team placing an 18 year old who they knew to have comitted several sexual offences against children, with a family containing young children whilst keeping his past a secret from the parents?

It actually happened here. I'm just trying to explain how this came to be. My mind reels.

HappyOldGuy
8th March 09, 05:06 PM
I do not know much about how social services work in the US. If you would like I can provide several more desperately sad examples of children get raped and/or murdered as a direct result of social services incompetence and/or warped victimology.

Can you envision a US municipal social services team placing an 18 year old who they knew to have comitted several sexual offences against children, with a family containing young children whilst keeping his past a secret from the parents?

It actually happened here. I'm just trying to explain how this came to be. My mind reels.

Not knowingly. I can imagine (easily) a situation where such information was kept from the social service agency. Juvenile records are generally kept closed.

Cullion
8th March 09, 05:09 PM
Not knowingly. I can imagine (easily) a situation where such information was kept from the social service agency. Juvenile records are generally kept closed.

This touches on a different point, here, records of all kinds are shared widely between national and local government agencies.
The social workers in question knew of the young man's past and made a conscious choice to keep it secret whilst placing him in a household with young children.

HappyOldGuy
8th March 09, 05:11 PM
Obviously I'm not gonna defend that. I was just commenting on how hard it can be to judge the frequency of this kind of thing from the outside.

Cullion
8th March 09, 05:20 PM
It's hard for me to make a comparison with other countries too, because I don't follow them nearly as closely. However, I used this case to demonstrate that such things happen due to conscious decisions of public service professionals here, and therefore something is deeply wrong.

danno
8th March 09, 06:43 PM
I think the social worker thing might be more representative of the field than of the country. We have all those problems in Canada as well.

it happens in australia too.

what you described is a terrible thing cullion, but imho it's more an example of human stupidity than something that can help explain the "decline of britain".

Cullion
8th March 09, 06:53 PM
it happens in australia too.

what you described is a terrible thing cullion, but imho it's more an example of human stupidity than something that can help explain the "decline of britain".

Has that actually happened in Australia ? Social workers knowingly placing a young adult with a history of sexual abuse of children in a household with young children whilst keeping the background secret from the parents?

It's one example. Perhaps I should provide more.

A couple of 56 and 49 had their grandchildren forcibly removed their care because social services considered them to be too old. They were looking after the children whilst their mother (the couple's daughter) was recovering from heroin addiction.

They placed the children with a gay couple (not in itself a problem) and then told they would be barred from any further contact with the children at all unless they dropped any legal challenge to the adoption. There was no record of abuse by the grandparents of any kind.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/family/4365171/Social-services-remove-young-children-from-grandparents-and-arrange-adoption-by-gay-couple.html

danno
8th March 09, 07:08 PM
Has that actually happened in Australia ?

things have happened like that and it occasionally makes the news, causing outrage. if i get the time i'll try to look up some examples up for you.

but i've got no idea if your system has fallen a lot further down than ours, which i guess is possible.

Cullion
8th March 09, 07:15 PM
I can't tell how bad or good social services are in Australia. I'm only demonstrating how bad ours have become

Harpy
8th March 09, 07:18 PM
danno - do you recall the case where a woman in NSW had 3 babies who all died under 18 months old (not sure if Social Services ever found out the cause of death, reasons like Sudden Infant Death Syndrome, malnutrition were bandied about). When she had her 4th child and it died months later there was an uproar as to why the hospital system never picked up the pattern, why DOCS and Social Services hadn't flagged that woman as a concern, why the children were never removed from her care etc.

elipson
8th March 09, 07:34 PM
Canada has examples of young children dying from abuse suffered in foster homes. My roommate is going in for social work so I've heard MANY horror stories. They are extremely rare, but they do occur.

I think it is the result of large bureaucracies more than anything.

mrm1775
8th March 09, 07:57 PM
Wow. Just... wow.

Is there typically a great deal of outrage in the UK when this sort of thing happens, or is it largely ignored?

Cullion
8th March 09, 08:01 PM
It makes the national newspapers. Then it happens again.

Cullion
8th March 09, 08:02 PM
I'll try and give answers to any other questions people have about this, but tomorrow night I'm going to try to dig some stuff out on our education system.

Sophist
8th March 09, 09:05 PM
I'm not sure I'd describe any of this as "the decline of Britain". All it really says is that our social work services can attract some real nutjobs, and it's kind of an anecdotal-evidence look at that. (One of my buddies is a psychiatrist, so I pretty much agree with the premise, having heard his opinions...)

OTOH, I'd be willing to accept a good chunk of the stuff the Lib Dems are clamouring about in their "Freedom Bill" as evidence for the "decline".
http://freedom.libdems.org.uk/the-freedom-bill/

The bit I really like is the clinical removal of the right to public assembly:
http://freedom.libdems.org.uk/the-freedom-bill/9-the-right-to-public-assembly/
see
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2003/ukpga_20030038_en_5#pt4-l1g30

though, bailiffs being authorised to use "reasonable force" to enter your home and secure your goods is pretty good too.
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2007/ukpga_20070015_en_29#sch12
paragraphs 17-19

socratic
9th March 09, 06:27 AM
I don't understand the social services system at all. Out of all the bajillion cases I've heard of (on the news and interpersonally) only one person I know has ever been raised in a happy foster home. I don't understand how the system can fail so badly and why so many bad people sign up for children they know they can't help or manage or even withhold expressing their sadism upon.

Out of curiousity, Cullion, but wouldn't you say Tony Blair and Gordon Brown are on your side of the partisan sliding scale? I thought popular consesus was that Tony started his career as a 'young up and comer reformer' and turned out to be a conservative snake.

danno
9th March 09, 06:58 AM
danno - do you recall the case where a woman in NSW had 3 babies who all died under 18 months old (not sure if Social Services ever found out the cause of death, reasons like Sudden Infant Death Syndrome, malnutrition were bandied about). When she had her 4th child and it died months later there was an uproar as to why the hospital system never picked up the pattern, why DOCS and Social Services hadn't flagged that woman as a concern, why the children were never removed from her care etc.

yeah i think i remember that.

i could have looked up a number of other cases and talked about a few i have experienced personally, but i've decided not to since this thread is about the UK, not aus.

i'd like to hear some other points on why britain is falling apart, really.

billy sol hurok
9th March 09, 07:23 AM
'Ere now, what's all this then?


Pupils told to think like a suicide bomber (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/4701180/Pupils-told-to-think-like-a-suicide-bomber.html)

Children are being encouraged to imagine they are suicide bombers plotting the July 7 attacks as part of the Government's strategy to combat violent extremism.

The exercise is part of a teaching pack aimed at secondary school pupils that has been adopted by the Department for Children, Schools and Families. It requires children to prepare a presentation on the July 7 atrocity in which 52 innocent people died "from the perspective of the bombers".

They are asked to summarise the reasons why they thought the bombers wanted to carry out their attacks and even suggest some more.

Kein Haar
9th March 09, 09:19 AM
Not knowingly. I can imagine (easily) a situation where such information was kept from the social service agency. Juvenile records are generally kept closed.

This isn't a dick question, I'm genuinely asking out of curiousity...what are you basing this on? Do you work in a relevant field?

#1. Juvenile sex offenders still need to register.
#2. The communication (at least with our county) between police, courts, juvenile probation, DCFS, and the resident social service agency (handling juvenile victim interviews, emergency child placement, crisis intervention) is pretty fluid.

So...who would keep what from whom? The police sure as fuck wouldn't "keep it" from any of the mentioned. It may boil down to someone not asking, but nobody would "keep it" undisclosed for the sake of Johnny Pedo.

I still can NOT imagine a 17+ year old's relevant criminal history not being shared.

HappyOldGuy
9th March 09, 10:49 AM
This isn't a dick question, I'm genuinely asking out of curiousity...what are you basing this on? Do you work in a relevant field?

#1. Juvenile sex offenders still need to register.
#2. The communication (at least with our county) between police, courts, juvenile probation, DCFS, and the resident social service agency (handling juvenile victim interviews, emergency child placement, crisis intervention) is pretty fluid.

So...who would keep what from whom? The police sure as fuck wouldn't "keep it" from any of the mentioned. It may boil down to someone not asking, but nobody would "keep it" undisclosed for the sake of Johnny Pedo.

I still can NOT imagine a 17+ year old's relevant criminal history not being shared.
I worked in a juvenile work release program for guys getting out of CYA. We had spotty access to their records. When I worked with adults, we had pretty complete access.

Not sure about sex offenders, since they usually weren't eligible for pre release, but sex offender registration is different in every state.

WarPhalange
9th March 09, 12:36 PM
This is a case of incompetence, not policy or nationality. It's all across the board. Face it, people who are competent tend to go into the fields they enjoy. A smart person who likes history will likely go into history, same for computers, science, etc. Furthermore, there are even more smart people who would rather get a good job. Hence, you are left with not nearly as good a selection of people for the job of a social worker.

See, I used to think people sucked at science because science wasn't taught correctly at school. But I now realize it's a lot deeper than that. People simply aren't taught critical thinking skills. I didn't realize this until I got to college and actually had to think critically doing things like writing essays for English. It's a simple "I think X because Y, and it's not Z because W".

Yes, people do this all the time when they think "I'll take an umbrella because it might rain.", but it's like they are not capable of doing it on a deeper and more abstract level, such as "what will traumatize the kid more?"

This is surprising because I thought schooling in Britain was a lot better than here. So am I right in saying critical thinking isn't emphasized, or am I just plain wrong? I can't see how changing policy would prevent mistakes, only changing the way people think in general.

TM
9th March 09, 02:54 PM
I think the social worker thing might be more representative of the field than of the country. We have all those problems in Canada as well. The field seems to attract unstable people.

Social worker syndrome has been around for a long time.

HappyOldGuy
9th March 09, 03:01 PM
Social worker syndrome has been around for a long time.

Gee officer Krupke...

Zendetta
9th March 09, 03:09 PM
This is where it gets hard to tell things out of their context. In the US, I would mock such a claim mercilessly. Not because that kind of idiocy doesn't exist here. It does, especially on college campuses and schools in general. But it has been driven completely out of the mainstream. Nowadays for the most part it's something that people are accused of thinking rather than being something that they actually think.

Disagree. Consider the way San Francisco handles violent juvenile illegal immigrants - they should be deported with extreme prejudice, but SF Policy* is to offer them sanctuary, group homes, and help them resist Federal deportation attempts.

* admittedly, this policy is shifting due to some recent and dramatic fuck ups. But my point is that is has not been completely banished from the mainstream.

Cullion
9th March 09, 03:24 PM
I believe we are at a unique juncture of suckitude when social workers knowingly place convicted adult sex offenders with families containing pre-teens and keep their past secret from the parents. In a while I'll be back with some supporting documentation and a view of what's happening to our education system.

HappyOldGuy
9th March 09, 03:26 PM
Disagree. Consider the way San Francisco handles violent juvenile illegal immigrants - they should be deported with extreme prejudice, but SF Policy* is to offer them sanctuary, group homes, and help them resist Federal deportation attempts.

* admittedly, this policy is shifting due to some recent and dramatic fuck ups. But my point is that is has not been completely banished from the mainstream.
Except that the policy as implemented by the city council was never intended to shield juvenile felons. It was supposed to protect illegal immigrants as a broad class. It was just badly drafted and administered by a moron (see social worker disease).

Shawarma
9th March 09, 04:18 PM
I agree with whoever it was who said that Cullion uses anecdotes to support his viewpoint that the sky is falling. Makes you sound like somebody who gets outraged by what they read in the tabloids.

I've only been in Britain for about a year, and it doesn't look that bad to me. But maybe it used to be a glorious land of fairy tales, sparkling unicorns and cricket when Cullion was a kid, I dunno.

Cullion
9th March 09, 04:23 PM
I agree with whoever it was who said that Cullion uses anecdotes to support his viewpoint that the sky is falling.

That's because there isn't space or time to post every example, and in many cases the people who ought to be compiling verifiable statistics of some sort are the source of the problem.


Makes you sound like somebody who gets outraged by what they read in the tabloids.

That's because some of it is outrageous. Get it ?



I've only been in Britain for about a year, and it doesn't look that bad to me. But maybe it used to be a glorious land of fairy tales, sparkling unicorns and cricket when Cullion was a kid, I dunno.

That's odd, because almost everything you've had to say about the country up to now has been you moaning about what a shitty place with shitty people it was.

You really don't know much about the UK or how it's changed even in my lifetime.

Shawarma
9th March 09, 04:24 PM
Ahh, the old nationalist nerve. Gotta love pickin' at it.

Cullion
9th March 09, 04:28 PM
Ahh, the old nationalist nerve. Gotta love pickin' at it.

If you want to ask questions or debate something, go ahead, but this isn't a humour thread. If you just want to piss somebody off dive into CTC or something.

Harpy
9th March 09, 04:30 PM
I believe we are at a unique juncture of suckitude when social workers knowingly place convicted adult sex offenders with families containing pre-teens and keep their past secret from the parents. In a while I'll be back with some supporting documentation and a view of what's happening to our education system.

Not sure if it finally happened but the child killers of James Bulger were relocated to Australia and their identities kept secret. Keep your scum to yourselves!

Shawarma
9th March 09, 04:32 PM
Then I will ask: Why is Britain so much fucking shittier now than, say, 50 years ago? Because my mommy lived around London in the 40ies and she remembers it as being dirt poor and really fucking filthy due to all the coal being burnt.

Cullion
9th March 09, 04:37 PM
Then I will ask: Why is Britain so much fucking shittier now than, say, 50 years ago?

Because the things that made us proud of who we were are being dismantled.


Because my mommy lived around London in the 40ies and she remembers it as being dirt poor and really fucking filthy due to all the coal being burnt.

Yes, it was. This thread certainly isn't going to try and show that people were more materially comfortable in the big cities 50 years ago.

DAYoung
9th March 09, 04:43 PM
Because the things that made us proud of who we were are being dismantled.

The Falklands war didn't buck up your national spirit?

Cullion
9th March 09, 04:56 PM
The Falklands war didn't buck up your national spirit?

It got Margaret Thatcher re-elected and people were proud of the troops. People filled the dockyards waving flags when they came home.

I was 7 at the time. People in their 20s have no memory of it. We've lost more people in the middle east since then.

My brother in law fought in it. He doesn't talk about it much. His recollections can be summarized thus:-

i) Every now and then he would wake up to see one of his mates had died of the cold in the night. The first sign they were dead would usually be that a rat was crawling over them without them flinching.

ii) The falkland islands are small, remote, windswept and desolate.

iii) Saving Private Ryan was quite realistic.

That's all he has to say.

DAYoung
9th March 09, 06:13 PM
It got Margaret Thatcher re-elected and people were proud of the troops. People filled the dockyards waving flags when they came home.

I was 7 at the time. People in their 20s have no memory of it. We've lost more people in the middle east since then.

My brother in law fought in it. He doesn't talk about it much. His recollections can be summarized thus:-

i) Every now and then he would wake up to see one of his mates had died of the cold in the night. The first sign they were dead would usually be that a rat was crawling over them without them flinching.

ii) The falkland islands are small, remote, windswept and desolate.

iii) Saving Private Ryan was quite realistic.

That's all he has to say.

That makes me very sad.

Cullion
9th March 09, 06:48 PM
Since the end of the Second World War, 1968 was the only year in which a British serviceman was not killed on active service. I shall revist our foreign policy later.

Now, to our education system.

A common stereotype of the UK, is that our school system consists of two seperate, parallel streams. One for the rich, one for the poor.

i) The children of the wealthy attend boarding schools in castles and old manor houses or abbeys where they learn to speak with an upper class accent, receive an extremely rigorous academic education from brilliant but stern old eccentrics and are pushed physically in tough 'character building' sports like Rugby, Boxing and cross-country running, and somewhere in between learn the basics of how to appreciate fine wines and dress for dinner properly.

A bit like Hogwarts in the Harry Potter films, but with army cadet drill on Thursday afternoons and predatory dorm-room homosexuality.

ii) Everybody else attends Grange Hill*

* this
Tm9JayPA4jo

And leaves at 14 to take an apprenticeship in a local factory, sink into long-term unemployment or enlist in the armed forces to have their accent cleaned up a bit and made to do pushups until they're either respectable, or at least fitter than the police.

Like many stereotypes, there's a vague truthfullness to this.

But after World War II, the returning troops had had enough of this 'upstairs downstairs' shit, and wanted 'A Country Fit For Heroes'.

Serendipitously in 1944, the Education Act created 'Grammar Schools'. We'd had things called Grammar Schools for quite some time, which often existed as charities, but this act created state funded Grammar Schools across the country.

They were selective (you had to get above a certain grade on a test taken at 11 to get in), completely free of charge to the parents and aimed to provide as close an approximation of the education received at a famous old private school like Eton to any working class kid who could prove himself smart enough.

They had and still have many critics (largely on the grounds that it's unfair to change the course of a childs life with a single examination at the age of 11. Children who didn't pass went to 'Secondary Modern' schools were education was largely vocational in preparation for a working trade), but they were the greatest force for social mobility this country has ever seen.

The baby boom generation was the first generation to see statistically meaningful numbers of working and lower middle class children make it to university, and to join the upper middle class establishment which runs the country. A whole wave of working class armed forces officers, judges, doctors, architects, investment bankers and novelists were unleashed by the grammar system, starting in the 1950s.

So we listened to the people who said competitive exams weren't fair and closed most of them.

The new ideal was 'comprehensive' education, whereby children of all abilities studied together, 'no child left behind', and a new society where people wouldn't look down on each other due to educational or social class distinctions would arise.

The rich carried on sending their kids to Hogwarts.

I was educated at a Comprehensive school. The new inclusive society consisted of the physically strong brighter kids mocking the kids in the lower ability streams for their retardation, and the physically weak bright kids getting the snot beaten out of them, as is natural.

And gradually, they almost all morphed into Secondary Modern schools. Back to square one for the intelligent lower-middle and working classes.

Except to fix it, we decided to keep making the exams easier year after year so we could show that 'grades had improved again' and then demanding that universities essentially perform affirmitive action for kids educated in Comprehensive schools. Especially if they'd been to bad comprehensive schools in inner cities. Teaching unions and 'concerned parents' insisted that the roughest sports be toned down (or banned altogether), and we all learned to appreciate that Chemistry was more about the 'social impact' of Chemistry, rather than, like, atoms and stuff.

I'll stop at that point and field questions for a bit. I've said a lot there in a brief space which some people might want me to back up with primary sources, but rather than just vomit loads of links into a single post, I'll do it reactively.

Cullion
9th March 09, 07:57 PM
I'm not sure I'd describe any of this as "the decline of Britain". All it really says is that our social work services can attract some real nutjobs, and it's kind of an anecdotal-evidence look at that. (One of my buddies is a psychiatrist, so I pretty much agree with the premise, having heard his opinions...)

OTOH, I'd be willing to accept a good chunk of the stuff the Lib Dems are clamouring about in their "Freedom Bill" as evidence for the "decline".
http://freedom.libdems.org.uk/the-freedom-bill/

The bit I really like is the clinical removal of the right to public assembly:
http://freedom.libdems.org.uk/the-freedom-bill/9-the-right-to-public-assembly/
see
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2003/ukpga_20030038_en_5#pt4-l1g30

though, bailiffs being authorised to use "reasonable force" to enter your home and secure your goods is pretty good too.
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2007/ukpga_20070015_en_29#sch12
paragraphs 17-19

I've got lots of different areas to cover. I just started with some horror stories about what people with the power to confiscate your children get up to in the UK.
The things you raise are certainly important and I'll talk about later.

Cullion
9th March 09, 08:04 PM
I don't understand how the system can fail so badly and why so many bad people sign up for children they know they can't help or manage or even withhold expressing their sadism upon.

Partly it's because they get paid to foster. Partly it's because lots of people have delusions of saving the world, and then they find what they want to do actually involves effort and self-sacrifice that's not so much fun when they really get into it, and partly because child abusers are attracted to any line of work that gives them access to children that they can talk their way into.



Out of curiousity, Cullion, but wouldn't you say Tony Blair and Gordon Brown are on your side of the partisan sliding scale? I thought popular consesus was that Tony started his career as a 'young up and comer reformer' and turned out to be a conservative snake.

No, not even vaguely.

Tony Blair and Gordon Brown are 'conservative' to the extent that they wear suits in public and don't really understand or feel comfortable around working class people. In otherwords, they're a couple of died-in-the-wool champagne socialists mimicking the cultural mores of the establishment they've largely succeeded in sweeping from power to try and comfort the populace that nothing to drastic is happening.

Their nods towards 'free market economics', when they happen, are closer to the fascist or corporatist economic model than anything I believe in.

Dark Helmet
9th March 09, 08:58 PM
A bit like Hogwarts in the Harry Potter films, but with army cadet drill on Thursday afternoons and predatory dorm-room homosexuality.


Go....on!

elipson
9th March 09, 09:00 PM
Would, in your perspective, Britian be better off if the universal schools were held to a higher standard of academics and character, such as the rich boarding school you referred too?

Or would it be better off focusing the lower class on vocational and technical trades?

Just trying to grasp the nuances of what you think is best. I just finished a 6 page essay on Gramsci's prison notebooks, so this stuff is fresh in my mind.

socratic
9th March 09, 09:04 PM
Partly it's because they get paid to foster. Partly it's because lots of people have delusions of saving the world, and then they find what they want to do actually involves effort and self-sacrifice that's not so much fun when they really get into it, and partly because child abusers are attracted to any line of work that gives them access to children that they can talk their way into.

Yuck.



No, not even vaguely.

Tony Blair and Gordon Brown are 'conservative' to the extent that they wear suits in public and don't really understand or feel comfortable around working class people. In otherwords, they're a couple of died-in-the-wool champagne socialists mimicking the cultural mores of the establishment they've largely succeeded in sweeping from power to try and comfort the populace that nothing to drastic is happening.

Their nods towards 'free market economics', when they happen, are closer to the fascist or corporatist economic model than anything I believe in.

I said 'your side' of the bipartisan divide because by from what I understand you're a mild conservative, and conservatives are centre-right or plain ol' right. Fascists and corporationists tend to be rightists too, no? I thought you were making the point that leftists were pulling apart the socio-political system and I was trying to point out most of the recent fuckups are under the watchful gaze of rightists.

Virus
9th March 09, 10:40 PM
If anything is declining Britan it's the appeasement of radical Islam.

I havn't read the last few posts but how are you measuring "decline"?

Dark Helmet
9th March 09, 10:56 PM
.....that's according to 23% out 1200 youngsters in Britain were asked. So ,don't ask them if the holocaust really happened.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1160503/The-children-think-Auschwitz-brand-beer.html

HappyOldGuy
9th March 09, 11:20 PM
Here's a little something for gloomy gus Cullion.

http://server2.uploadit.org/files/cdesmarais-GW_Dead.JPG

billy sol hurok
10th March 09, 07:49 AM
If anything is declining Britan it's the appeasement of radical Islam.

Just another symptom.

Cullion
10th March 09, 05:19 PM
Would, in your perspective, Britian be better off if the universal schools were held to a higher standard of academics and character, such as the rich boarding school you referred too?

Or would it be better off focusing the lower class on vocational and technical trades?

I think we'd be better off if the highest academic standards were available to all, although for some people (and these might necessarily be dumber at all) trade training suits them better in their teens. I don't want people to be forced to learn a trade rather than study higher mathematics, philsophy or medicine just because their parents were construction workers etc..

Grammar schools made a decent job of this, and most of the greivances could I think be settled if it were possible for 'late developers' to transfer in later in their teens.

Cullion
10th March 09, 05:26 PM
I said 'your side' of the bipartisan divide because by from what I understand you're a mild conservative, and conservatives are centre-right or plain ol' right.

This is where I ought to explain that I don't subscribe to fitting political views on a simple left-right axis. I'm a libertarian (a moderate one by the standards of the US Libertarian party).

I am more 'right wing' about taxation and government spending than most people you would consider 'plain ol' right'. But I also favour drug decriminalisation, and am insinctively revolted by the kind of big-brother provisions being enacted into our laws and in the US (under the Patriot Act for example).

If you want to use a comfortable, more widely used term for my views, you could just as readily describe me as a 'low tax liberal' or 'classical liberal' as a 'conservative'.



Fascists and corporationists tend to be rightists too, no?

It depends if you divide politics up on that simple right-left axis which I dont' agree with. My political views are pretty much the polar opposite of fascism in almost all respects.


I thought you were making the point that leftists were pulling apart the socio-political system and I was trying to point out most of the recent fuckups are under the watchful gaze of rightists.

At the moment, I'm kind of skimming across different areas of our national life describing different problems without going very deep into blame. Rest assured when I start giving my view on what went wrong I will have plenty to blame the Conservative Party (particularly certain 20th century politicians) for.

The problems certainly got start way before 1997.

Cullion
10th March 09, 05:28 PM
I havn't read the last few posts but how are you measuring "decline"?

Across several axes. Academic rigour and attainment, economic productivity, military might, international influence, crime rates, civil rights and something more nebulous I'll call 'cultural self-confidence'.

Truculent Sheep
10th March 09, 05:56 PM
More fun & frolics:


Soldiers' parade turns ugly as Muslims protest
Tuesday, March 10, 2009
http://www.metro.co.uk/news/article.html?Soldiers_parade_turns_ugly_as_Muslims _protest&in_article_id=576455&in_page_id=34

A soldiers' homecoming parade had to be given a police escort after it was besieged by a small number of Muslim protesters – who were then turned on by the crowd.

The 200 troops – watched by thousands of cheering supporters on their return from Iraq – were subjected to shouts of 'Terrorists' and 'Anglian soldiers go to Hell'.

Many of the demonstrators also waved placards with slogans such as 'Baby Killers', 'Butchers of Basra' and 'Cowards, Killers, Extremists'.

Officers had to protect the group when supporters retaliated with shouts of 'Scum' and 'No surrender to the Taliban'. Two people were arrested.

The Muslim Council of Britain condemned the protest, saying it was 'clearly designed to create ill-feeling'.

Cullion
10th March 09, 06:06 PM
Not in this thread please.

DAYoung
10th March 09, 06:53 PM
I now think the 'war' thread should be confined to the 'war' thread.

Otherwise it screws up perfectly interesting conversations.

Cullion
10th March 09, 06:58 PM
I have no censorship powers here, and I wouldn't want to ban humour from the thread, the 'English Bank' thing was sort of relevant. But I do want to keep the signal-to-noise healthy so we're not all over the place on topics too much.

I'm not a very experienced essayist and I'm trying to cover a massive range of stuff as it is.

bob
11th March 09, 06:48 AM
The 'what's wrong with Britain' conversation seemed to be a bit of a national pastime from my time living there. It ranked right up there with complaining about the weather.

The answers that people proferred ranged from 'the death of the working class', 'the blacks', 'the pakis', 'the locals (ie. the original anglo-celtic inhabitants)' (I swear these three suggestions were given to me within a few days of each other by various inhabitants of a midlands town), 'Thatcherism', 'Neo-socialism', 'globalisation'.

I take it all with a grain of salt. To me it's more indicative of a British character trait than anything else; the distaff of their self deprecating humour and habit for rational introspection, with perhaps a lingering insecurity from the realisation that WW2 finally killed their no. 1 status amongst the heavy hitters of world politics.

To give one example. I remember reading an article in a Sunday paper bemoaning the lack of 'important' writers that Britain was producing. Not that Britain wasn't producing 'good' writers, but that America was the more 'important' literary nexus these days. What a load of crap. Britain still has some of the best writers in the world, and overall a far richer literary culture than America.

Virus
11th March 09, 07:11 AM
Cullion we need some graphs of these things in decline.

Kein Haar
11th March 09, 07:22 AM
'the blacks',

Afro-Carribbean-United Kingdomists you insensitive wanker!

danno
11th March 09, 07:31 AM
Cullion we need some graphs of these things in decline.

are you expecting a graph showing muslims on the rise while everything else plummets?

cullion, i hear that the UK is going to be hit harder by recession than any other industrialised nation.


The Bank of England has cut official interest rates six times since October from 5 per cent to an historic low of just 0.5 per cent.

But even that has not been enough to fix Britain's malfunctioning banking system, which continues to starve consumers and businesses of credit.

So for the first time in its 314-year history, the bank will increase the economy's money supply directly by creating new money out of thin air in a move known as "quantitative easing".

The bank's governor Mervyn King says the bank has never before needed to undertake such drastic measures.

"It's fair to say that in the bank's 300-year history we've not seen measures of this kind enacted on this scale," he said.

"But remember, we haven't either seen the scale of the problems to which we've had to respond. And since last October, I don't think the Bank of England has ever reacted so quickly and by so much."

The Bank of England will this week try to speed up the stalled economy by starting to pump 75 billion pounds into the system.

That represents 10 per cent of the annual output of the UK economy. They will do it by purchasing government and corporate bonds.

In ordinary times, so called quantitative easing would see spending career out of control.

But while the biggest roadblock on the economic horizon this time last year was inflation, the risk is now that prices will go into reverse.

Mr Buick says this will take months.

"It's not a remedy that's going to be rectified in five minutes like the flick of the fingers or a flash of a wand," he said.

"This is a really endemic, seriously sick economy. And it's going to take time to get it to rally round."

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/03/11/2513224.htm

Madgrenade
11th March 09, 07:33 AM
If we want to get a picture of REAL decline in Britian the we need look no further than this.
Speed limit on rural roads to be cut to 50mph


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1160338/Speed-limit-rural-roads-cut-50mph.html

The Government is considering cutting speed limits on most rural single-carriageway roads from 60mph to 50mph, it has emerged.

Currently the speed limit on almost all single carriageway roads outside of towns is set at 60mph, except for at accident blackspots
However, road safety minister Jim Fitzpatrick is said to have been struck by figures showing that these parts of the network were more prone to crashes.


This is a symptom of the grave pussification of our nation. As the population ages too many wrinklies have too much political power and drive much too slowly. If you don't want to crash, get off the road. Simple. Soon we will be crawling along at the EU crappy speed limits, as is already the case in some town centres. Cars are getting better, so we should be driving faster, not slower.


We used to sail the seven seas, taking over your nations. Now were afraid to put our foot down. If that's not decline I don't know what is.

danno
11th March 09, 07:36 AM
The 'what's wrong with Britain' conversation seemed to be a bit of a national pastime from my time living there. It ranked right up there with complaining about the weather.

The answers that people proferred ranged from 'the death of the working class', 'the blacks', 'the pakis', 'the locals (ie. the original anglo-celtic inhabitants)' (I swear these three suggestions were given to me within a few days of each other by various inhabitants of a midlands town), 'Thatcherism', 'Neo-socialism', 'globalisation'.

I take it all with a grain of salt. To me it's more indicative of a British character trait than anything else; the distaff of their self deprecating humour and habit for rational introspection, with perhaps a lingering insecurity from the realisation that WW2 finally killed their no. 1 status amongst the heavy hitters of world politics.

To give one example. I remember reading an article in a Sunday paper bemoaning the lack of 'important' writers that Britain was producing. Not that Britain wasn't producing 'good' writers, but that America was the more 'important' literary nexus these days. What a load of crap. Britain still has some of the best writers in the world, and overall a far richer literary culture than America.

in terms of what cullion is complaining about, how would you say australia compared to the UK?

Madgrenade
11th March 09, 07:55 AM
I know that there are roads in Australia where you can drive as fast as you damn well please.

danno
11th March 09, 08:13 AM
until recently yes, but not any more. and they were pretty rare anyways.

http://www.drive.com.au/Editorial/ArticleDetail.aspx?articleID=21429

Madgrenade
11th March 09, 08:37 AM
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! I guess the whole world is in decline.

Virus
11th March 09, 10:25 AM
Hey HOG have you been playing Empire: Total War?

HappyOldGuy
11th March 09, 10:56 AM
Hey HOG have you been playing Empire: Total War?

http://www.sociocide.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52225

Cullion
11th March 09, 02:08 PM
I take it all with a grain of salt. To me it's more indicative of a British character trait than anything else; the distaff of their self deprecating humour and habit for rational introspection, with perhaps a lingering insecurity from the realisation that WW2 finally killed their no. 1 status amongst the heavy hitters of world politics.

To give one example. I remember reading an article in a Sunday paper bemoaning the lack of 'important' writers that Britain was producing. Not that Britain wasn't producing 'good' writers, but that America was the more 'important' literary nexus these days. What a load of crap. Britain still has some of the best writers in the world, and overall a far richer literary culture than America.

The problem is, this is true. But.. it's not that things aren't changing for the worse.

Being self-aware of what you've just highlighted has become a kind of air-brake on getting something done about the real problems.

Cullion
11th March 09, 02:11 PM
cullion, i hear that the UK is going to be hit harder by recession than any other industrialised nation.


Yes we likely will, for 2 reasons:-

i) We're much deeper in debt on a per-head basis than most other developed economies (this isn't just about govt. spending. It's true on a personal level too. Our houses are more overvalued relative to average salaries than American or Australian houses for example).

ii) Our economy has been much more heavily reliant on financial services than much of the rest of Europe and the English speaking world to generate revenue.

bob
11th March 09, 02:18 PM
Yes we likely will, for 2 reasons:-

i) We're much deeper in debt on a per-head basis than most other developed economies (this isn't just about govt. spending. It's true on a personal level too. Our houses are more overvalued relative to average salaries than American or Australian houses for example).

ii) Our economy has been much more heavily reliant on financial services than much of the rest of Europe and the English speaking world to generate revenue.

i) Although averages can be somewhat misleading, I think you'll find that Australian house prices are greater as a % of income than UK and US.

http://www.dailyreckoning.com.au/australian-house-prices-are-severely-and-seriously-unaffordable/2009/01/27/

Cullion
11th March 09, 02:22 PM
i) Although averages can be somewhat misleading, I think you'll find that Australian house prices are greater as a % of income than UK and US.

http://www.dailyreckoning.com.au/australian-house-prices-are-severely-and-seriously-unaffordable/2009/01/27/

The ratio quoted does not represent the peak of our market, or some of the other markets mentioned. In Ireland the peak was a ratio of almost 10 for example. (Ireland and Spain had more overvalued houses, but less consumer debt, and much less reliance on their financial services sectors).

Our house prices are well on the way down and will keep going until they hit a ratio around 3, just like yours are likely to.

bob
11th March 09, 02:29 PM
in terms of what cullion is complaining about, how would you say australia compared to the UK?

I haven't seen anything happening in the UK that I haven't seen happening in Australia. And we complain about them to. We have tabloid rants and shake our heads and say 'what's the world coming to' and 'kids these days'.

What we don't tend to say is that x is indicative of the decline of Australia. Maybe that's pure history and geography - while Britain ruled the world, we were just a cess pit to send the scum to, as British power declined Australia became a wealthy independent nation, we are next to a vibrant, growing Asia while Britain is right next to old Europe.

Cullion
11th March 09, 02:32 PM
It is of course relative. If I was from most African countries, I would be delighted to find myself in the UK.

Cullion
11th March 09, 02:35 PM
I haven't seen anything happening in the UK that I haven't seen happening in Australia.

Out of curiosity, how many surveillance cameras per head are there in Australia?

Also what would the likely official reaction be to saying this as the speaker at a political organisation's dinner :-

'If we represented black disabled lesbians, we'd probably be given a grant'

bob
11th March 09, 02:41 PM
Out of curiosity, how many surveillance cameras per head are there in Australia?

Also what would the likely official reaction be to saying this as the speaker at a political organisation's dinner :-

'If we represented black disabled lesbians, we'd probably be given a grant'
i) Wouldn't have the foggiest but we have about a 100* more fixed and mobile speed cameras and random breath test units.

ii) Depends on the speaker, depends on the party. Mainstream politicians have said a lot more inflammatory statemenents and gotten away with it. There is generally a certain amount of tolerance for someone who is at least willing to speak their mind.

edit: actually scratch that. The official reaction would be a standard disassociation and reprimand.

danno
11th March 09, 04:59 PM
I haven't seen anything happening in the UK that I haven't seen happening in Australia. And we complain about them to. We have tabloid rants and shake our heads and say 'what's the world coming to' and 'kids these days'.

What we don't tend to say is that x is indicative of the decline of Australia. Maybe that's pure history and geography - while Britain ruled the world, we were just a cess pit to send the scum to, as British power declined Australia became a wealthy independent nation, we are next to a vibrant, growing Asia while Britain is right next to old Europe.

that's what i was thinking.

danno
11th March 09, 05:01 PM
Also what would the likely official reaction be to saying this as the speaker at a political organisation's dinner :-

'If we represented black disabled lesbians, we'd probably be given a grant'

have you heard of pauline hanson and the One Nation party at all?

ICY
11th March 09, 05:04 PM
Really, everything went to shit after India was granted independence. Give up hope, there's no turning back now.

Cullion
11th March 09, 05:04 PM
have you heard of pauline hanson and the One Nation party at all?

Yes, she was a chip-shop owner who became the head of the Australian equivalent of the BNP. I do not know what sanctions she faced from your 'establishment'. I do want to learn stuff as well as just talk. Tell me about it.

Cullion
11th March 09, 05:08 PM
that's what i was thinking.

You both have a good point, but as I say, I'm talking about a decline in the sense of it being mostly relative.

The UK was once as powerful as the US is today, despite having a relatively tiny population. Part of this is about me fumbling around trying to explain (from a grassroots, day to day view) what the transition from being a 'great power' to being 'meh, that island in North Western Europe with bad weather' feels like. But part of it is about trying to document and explain the causes of some problems we have which I feel are unique.

Maybe, just maybe, right at the end, after lots of reading other people's critiques and questions I'll offer a few suggestions as to how we brits can turn it around.

Really, my point here isn't to say 'we have it worse than all of you and I'm not listening to arguments to the counter'. My point is 'the UK really has become a worse place to live in the memory of my lifetime and I can prove it, let's discuss why'.

DAYoung
11th March 09, 05:15 PM
This is fascinating, and I will get back to you.

Thanks, Cullion.

ICY
11th March 09, 05:20 PM
The UK was once as powerful as the US is today

More powerful, IMO.

As for "the decline", I think it's happening everywhere in the English speaking world (plus western Europe).

bob
11th March 09, 05:21 PM
If you want my honest opinion (and frankly you don't have a choice) Britain suffers from an inferiority complex to the US. So often, the comparison comes back to 'but the US...'.

Now that in itself is not particularly unusual. Most of the world struggles in some way with the concept of the US being the one dominant superpower. Some people fly planes into buildings, some people take potshots at inbred rednecks in Arkansas.

Australians tend to be relatively accepting of it, possibly because we've never had any kind of semblance of world power. We've grown up as a nation reliant on a 'powerful protector' and we fairly happily switched over to the Yanks after the fall of Singapore. We console ourselves that Americans aren't bad sorts really and the average Aussie could go over there and become a Hollywood A-lister or run a media empire if we really had a mind to.

It's different for Brits though. It's like having your little brother who you always beat the crap out of growing up to be 6'6" and a self made millionaire to boot.

I'm not saying your criticisms aren't valid, just that they may be somewhat coloured (it's ok, we may not rely on your navy anymore but at least we still use your spelling).

Cullion
11th March 09, 05:30 PM
If you want my honest opinion (and frankly you don't have a choice) Britain suffers from an inferiority complex to the US. So often, the comparison comes back to 'but the US...'.

Yes, absolutely. I'm personally very pro-American.





It's different for Brits though. It's like having your little brother who you always beat the crap out of growing up to be 6'6" and a self made millionaire to boot.

I'm not saying your criticisms aren't valid, just that they may be somewhat coloured (it's ok, we may not rely on your navy anymore but at least we still use your spelling).

I agree with the picture you've painted, but I really do think we've fallen to a level that once it's all been laid out you'll be surprised at and it's more than just the shock of the change in relative prestige now our empire is ended.

Please, if you can, answer my questions about how the establishment might react to the sample comment I gave and how much surveillance you're under.

bob
11th March 09, 05:36 PM
I did.

Cullion
11th March 09, 05:48 PM
I'm sorry bornsceptic, I wasn't keeping up.

In the UK, the phrase I gave, in the circumstances I describe led to the local police force taking out adverts in a regional paper asking for witnesses to step forward, because the chief constable of the force in question thought he might have political capital in chasing up a 'diversity' heretic.

The man arrested was called Robin Paige, and he was arrested.

It's all available on Google.

Does this happen in Australia yet?

bob
11th March 09, 06:02 PM
Are you sure it's Robin Paige? All I get on him is a mystery writer.

Was he tried, if so on what charge?

Zendetta
11th March 09, 06:35 PM
Except that the policy as implemented by the city council was never intended to shield juvenile felons. It was supposed to protect illegal immigrants as a broad class. It was just badly drafted and administered by a moron (see social worker disease).

I really see this as an endemic problem associated with Political Correctness, not simply the work of isolated morons.

Another example can be found in the juicy critique of Berkeley High's "Small Schools" program in today's edition of the East Bay Express.

danno
11th March 09, 06:46 PM
Yes, she was a chip-shop owner who became the head of the Australian equivalent of the BNP. I do not know what sanctions she faced from your 'establishment'. I do want to learn stuff as well as just talk. Tell me about it.

she said some pretty horrible things, basically the opposite of the example you gave. at one point, her party had 1/4 of the state vote in queensland. her is her maiden speech from 1996:


Immigration and multiculturalism are issues that this government is trying to address, but for far too long ordinary Australians have been kept out of any debate by the major parties. I and most Australians want our immigration policy radically reviewed and that of multiculturalism abolished. I believe we are in danger of being swamped by Asians. Between 1984 and 1995, 40 per cent of all migrants coming into this country were of Asian origin. They have their own culture and religion, form ghettos and do not assimilate. Of course, I will be called racist but, if I can invite whom I want into my home, then I should have the right to have a say in who comes into my country. A truly multicultural country can never be strong or united. The world is full of failed and tragic examples, ranging from Ireland to Bosnia to Africa and, closer to home, Papua New Guinea. America and Great Britain are currently paying the price. Arthur Calwell was a great Australian and Labor leader, and it is a pity that there are not men of his stature sitting on the opposition benches today. Arthur Calwell said: Japan, India, Burma, Ceylon and every new African nation are fiercely anti-white and anti one another. Do we want or need any of these people here? I am one red-blooded Australian who says no and who speaks for 90% of Australians. I have no hesitation in echoing the words of Arthur Calwell.

john howard, prime minister of the time, "refused to censure Hanson or speak critically about her, acknowledging that her views were shared by many Australians, commenting that he saw the expression of such views as evidence that the 'pall of political correctness' had been lifted in Australia."

she ended up being convicted of electoral fraud, then dishonestly obtaining property. she spent some short time in gaol, then her convictions were eventually overturned.

she is now running as an independant in QLD.

i got the quotes from wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pauline_Hanson

OZZ
11th March 09, 06:59 PM
I think the social worker thing might be more representative of the field than of the country. We have all those problems in Canada as well. The field seems to attract unstable people.

'Damaged goods' as it were.
The University I work at has one of the best MA programs for Social Work in the country and let me tell you it attracts some messed up people.
Usually they are one end of the scale or the other - well-intentioned and naive from priveleged backgrounds - or products of the system themselves with an axe to grind.
That's why I didn't get in to it - I would have an axe to grind.

That's a pretty scary story you told, Cullion. You try to help someone and look what it gets you..what the hell is the world coming to?

Edit: sorry I am a bit behind on the discussion here, but that story at the beginning of the thread really shocked me..

HappyOldGuy
11th March 09, 07:37 PM
Another example can be found in the juicy critique of Berkeley High's "Small Schools" program in today's edition of the East Bay Express.

http://www.eastbayexpress.com/news/separate_and_unequal_at_berkeley_s_small_schools/Content?oid=941265

What the hell does that have to do with political correctness? It was an attempt to remedy a real problem that had to be addressed. It may not be working. If it isn't working, then they will have to try something different.

Zendetta
11th March 09, 09:29 PM
What the hell does that have to do with political correctness?

For Real?

You may have another name for it, I dunno.

A major impetus for these programs was an attempt to close the achievement gap between different ethnic groups.

I'm more concerned with the effort gap.

HappyOldGuy
11th March 09, 11:19 PM
For Real?

You may have another name for it, I dunno.

A major impetus for these programs was an attempt to close the achievement gap between different ethnic groups.

I'm more concerned with the effort gap.
The school was spending more on the white and asian kids. So they tried something that has worked in other places and it isn't working out as well as they had hoped.

Tha fact that they read zinn bothers me a little though.

MEGA JESUS-SAMA
11th March 09, 11:46 PM
I read Zinn too. You got a problem?

DAYoung
12th March 09, 06:07 AM
Cullion, I've some comments and questions for you.

1. Modern philosophy of history began with Giambattista Vico. Along with some other impressive insights, Vico believed civilisations were cyclical (he posited three ages). Instead of being linear or disconnected, he saw distinct stages, each with their own common characteristics.

Leaving the detail - divine, heroic, human ages, Providence - aside, do you think all societies are subject to laws of growth and degeneration, or other cyclical laws?

2. If so, can these be understood naturalistically, e.g. organic growth and decay, subject to principles of entropy? (Not actually organisms, but like them.)

3. And if so, can this decline be reversed, and how? What structures and forces are necessary to stop or reverse the tendency of living systems to decline?

4. If 3. is possible, what might Britain be aiming for? To return to Vico (and more precisely, to Herder), does Britain have her own unique, distinctive kinds of flourishing, or do all healthy societies exhibit the same generic traits? Practically speaking, can Britain be Athens or Weimar, or even Victorian? Or must it achieve some novel, unrecorded health and wealth?

All very meta-historical, I realise. But it might be suggestive.

Zendetta
12th March 09, 10:31 AM
The school was spending more on the white and asian kids.

Yeah, but not because they were asianwhite. Those students got more resources because those students achieved more.


So they tried something that has worked in other places and it isn't working out as well as they had hoped.

I gotta admit, I like the concept of smaller classes and better paid teachers, but this "everyone gets a trophy" mindset is boolsheet. I think its not working because of a bad case of Berkeleyitis.


Tha fact that they read zinn bothers me a little though.

Thank you, Jesus. I was beginning to fear this was a "fish don't see the water" kind of thing, and I was going to suggest you look at their reading list if you still couldn't smell the stench of political correctness.

HappyOldGuy
12th March 09, 10:37 AM
I read Zinn too. You got a problem?

Not for you, but some of these kids might actually achieve something someday.

Cullion
12th March 09, 06:22 PM
Are you sure it's Robin Paige? All I get on him is a mystery writer.

Was he tried, if so on what charge?

I'm sorry, I typo'd his name. It's Robin Page.

He was eventually awarded compensation. Thank God.

My point is civil rights and political freedoms have degenerated to a point that very senior police officers, after careful discussion with their peers, now think it's OK to spend public money advertising in newspapers for witnesses to come forward to convict a man who basically told a very mildly UN-PC joke.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1575619/Robin-Page-compensated-over-race-arrest.html

Now, I understand that many of you might think 'well thats ok then, justice was done in the end'. My concern is that it got this far, when it would've been unthinkable a generation ago.

danno
12th March 09, 06:36 PM
a generation ago, yes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Australia_policy

danno
12th March 09, 06:43 PM
it's not that i don't think you have a point somewhere. i'm getting a much better understanding of your perspective.

Cullion
12th March 09, 06:59 PM
Hopefully it will get clearer as we go along. I'm not very practiced at writing pithy essays. It helps when people ask questions.

I'm kind of betting on the fact that I won't be able to make things clear if I try to write too much at once, but the people who are interested will dig the rest out by curiosity and the natural urge to debate.

Quikfeet509
12th March 09, 07:44 PM
This thread makes me sad.



I had fantasized about moving to Australia when I'm done with school to avoid paying back 250K in student loans but now I can't because Whitey will hate my wife because she is a Ching Chong.

Sigh.

Cullion
12th March 09, 07:47 PM
You should probably still think about it. It's not like other countries don't have racism. I'd expect that most of the white australians posting here think of 'whitey' in the article as a bit of a fucking 'tard.

Quikfeet509
12th March 09, 08:29 PM
You should probably still think about it. It's not like other countries don't have racism. I'd expect that most of the white australians posting here think of 'whitey' in the article as a bit of a fucking 'tard.


That's the funny thing. Since our "knowing" tends to be limited to our own personal context, it is hard as hell to realistically compare things like racism based off of what you read on teh internets.


When I was in China, one of our translators was curious about gun ownership in the US. She thought that Amerikans were all like rambo, owning large weapon caches and wearing sweatbands and stuff. So she asked our group of three if Amerika was like that and we replied "of course not". Then she asked how many of us owned guns and 2 of us said we did.

"How is that not like the Rambo?"

"Sweatbands."


She looked confused.

Virus
13th March 09, 12:12 AM
If you want to return to the days on the British Empire just start invading shit, set up proxy governments and sometimes it pays to have some terrorist nutcases on side just in case you need a little dirty work done.

bob
13th March 09, 01:34 AM
This thread makes me sad.



I had fantasized about moving to Australia when I'm done with school to avoid paying back 250K in student loans but now I can't because Whitey will hate my wife because she is a Ching Chong.

Sigh.

Asians are so ubiquitous in Australia these days that you'll find very little if anything in the way of racism in any moderately urbanised part. Especially if she's hot.

It's ragheads we're trying to keep out these days.

Quikfeet509
13th March 09, 05:08 PM
Asians are so ubiquitous in Australia these days that you'll find very little if anything in the way of racism in any moderately urbanised part. Especially if she's hot.

Yes she is.




It's ragheads we're trying to keep out these days.


Sold. Where do I sign?

socratic
13th March 09, 05:21 PM
Asians are so ubiquitous in Australia these days that you'll find very little if anything in the way of racism in any moderately urbanised part. Especially if she's hot.

It's ragheads we're trying to keep out these days.

Who are also ubiquitous. Every time I catch a bus there's at least 5 (out of about 10 or 15 people) SE Asian Muslims. Lots of Muslims at the Unis, too.

danno
14th March 09, 08:13 AM
Asians are so ubiquitous in Australia these days that you'll find very little if anything in the way of racism in any moderately urbanised part.

i actually think that depends on the kind of people you socialise with.

i was was chatting to some sydney friends who were helping me move house the other day, when i found out that every one of them liked pauline hanson.

i remember her going on about asians, asians, asians in the 90's. after 9/11 it's been muslims, muslims, muslims.

danno
14th March 09, 08:15 AM
This thread makes me sad.



I had fantasized about moving to Australia when I'm done with school to avoid paying back 250K in student loans but now I can't because Whitey will hate my wife because she is a Ching Chong.

Sigh.

as cullion said, you'll probably find the same thing anywhere you go. at the end of the day, aus is one of the best places to live in the planet.

socratic
14th March 09, 08:24 AM
i actually think that depends on the kind of people you socialise with.

i was was chatting to some sydney friends who were helping me move house the other day, when i found out that every one of them liked pauline hanson.

i remember her going on about asians, asians, asians in the 90's. after 9/11 it's been muslims, muslims, muslims.

Pauline's worried about the Asian Muslims. It's the double-whammy, diluting our angloretardation, son.

TM
15th March 09, 11:42 AM
If you want to return to the days on the British Empire just start invading shit, set up proxy governments and sometimes it pays to have some terrorist nutcases on side just in case you need a little dirty work done.

Blink, blink. didn't they already do that? multiple times?

socratic
15th March 09, 10:10 PM
Blink, blink. didn't they already do that? multiple times?

Not as much as you guys did. And it backfired worse on you guys.

WarPhalange
15th March 09, 11:59 PM
Only because our leaders are incompetent.

new2bjj
17th March 09, 10:00 AM
Cullion, maybe you feel a little like this guy?-

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-506219/The-testament-Flashmans-creator-How-Britain-destroyed-itself.html

I've read some of his books, which, while funny, are hugely racist and ridiculous. Basically, the world was a better place when England went around taking every other countries reesources for a pittance and keeping "order", whatever that is.

Shawarma
17th March 09, 02:07 PM
Summary of above article: "Get off mah lawn, damn kids!"

Rantings of an ornery ancient dude complaining that things were just BETTER in the old days. A bit like how Cullion comes across to me in this thread.

And you kinda miss the point of Flashman - Flash Harry, degenerate upper class dickhead, womaniser, racist fop, tells the story from his assholific point of view and he doesn't try to whitewash what the Brits did in the 19th century.

RIP, Fraser.

Quikfeet509
17th March 09, 03:03 PM
Cullion, maybe you feel a little like this guy?-

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-506219/The-testament-Flashmans-creator-How-Britain-destroyed-itself.html

I've read some of his books, which, while funny, are hugely racist and ridiculous. Basically, the world was a better place when England went around taking every other countries reesources for a pittance and keeping "order", whatever that is.


Are going to argue that Third World countries are better off now then when they were colonies?


That would be sweet.

HappyOldGuy
17th March 09, 03:08 PM
Are going to argue that Third World countries are better off now then when they were colonies?


That would be sweet.

Really? (http://www.yale.edu/gsp/colonial/belgian_congo/index.html)

bob
17th March 09, 03:22 PM
Cullion, maybe you feel a little like this guy?-

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-506219/The-testament-Flashmans-creator-How-Britain-destroyed-itself.html

I've read some of his books, which, while funny, are hugely racist and ridiculous. Basically, the world was a better place when England went around taking every other countries reesources for a pittance and keeping "order", whatever that is.

Y'know I didn't really get much out of that article until I went back and read your comment again. Shawarma's right, you really do miss the point of Flashman.

new2bjj
17th March 09, 09:21 PM
Well, I thought that Flashman was funny, and to a point I thought he was satirizing the whole Rule Britannia thing ,but Fraser had written a few articles that have said basically, things were just grand when England was in charge.

Sure they were. For England at least.

new2bjj
17th March 09, 09:25 PM
Are going to argue that Third World countries are better off now then when they were colonies?


That would be sweet.

Honestly, Do you think the Indians, Pakistani's and Chinese are going around saying "Oh, we miss the British! It was great here when they kept things in order!"? I doubt it.

The English need to get over themselves and concentrate on doing music and James Bond Movies. As I recall, they used to make some nice clothes and cool, though hard to maintain sports cars. Hell, I had a Triumph Spitfire myself. Good times...

bob
18th March 09, 03:55 AM
Well, we'll see how sanguine Americans are about the present and future when their era of empire ends.

Truculent Sheep
18th March 09, 08:20 AM
Really? (http://www.yale.edu/gsp/colonial/belgian_congo/index.html)

Comparing every African colony to the Belgian Congo is very much like comparing General Butt Naked to every other African statesman or stateswoman.

Post-Colonial literature has a much better grasp on the subject and its complexities. Read Things Fall Apart or A Harlot's Tale before you start barking up polarised trees.

In a sense, Flashman and Fraser's personal writings fit into that tradition too - the former emphasising the downside and the latter emphasising the upside of Empire, which is how Fraser expresses both sides of the same coin, and his real views on the matter, without it getting messy.

Shawarma
18th March 09, 09:10 AM
Honestly, Do you think the Indians, Pakistani's and Chinese are going around saying "Oh, we miss the British! It was great here when they kept things in order!"? I doubt it.

The English need to get over themselves and concentrate on doing music and James Bond Movies. As I recall, they used to make some nice clothes and cool, though hard to maintain sports cars. Hell, I had a Triumph Spitfire myself. Good times...
I've spoken to a couple Indian expats about the British Raj. They were against it.
No idea if this is common for Indians in India too, though.

HappyOldGuy
18th March 09, 11:57 AM
Comparing every African colony to the Belgian Congo is very much like comparing General Butt Naked to every other African statesman or stateswoman.

Except that is exactly what the colonial apologists do pointing to places like rwanda and ignoring the entire continents of asia and south amierica.

new2bjj
18th March 09, 02:06 PM
Except that is exactly what the colonial apologists do pointing to places like rwanda and ignoring the entire continents of asia and south amierica.

Well said.

Truculent Sheep
18th March 09, 02:10 PM
Except that is exactly what the colonial apologists do pointing to places like rwanda and ignoring the entire continents of asia and south amierica.

Which ones? Cite them. It can also be argued that the developing world owes a lot of its growth, or the foundations at least, to colonialism.

HappyOldGuy
18th March 09, 02:14 PM
Which ones? Cite them. It can also be argued that the developing world owes a lot of its growth, or the foundations at least, to colonialism.
Err Franco1981? Or at least that's whe way idiots on the internet usually make the case he seemed to want to make.

ICY
18th March 09, 03:01 PM
Except that is exactly what the colonial apologists do pointing to places like rwanda and ignoring the entire continents of asia and south amierica.

South America is mostly still a shithole and has been independent longer than anywhere else. However, I blame that mainly on the Spanish and Portuguese being Catholic pieces of shit.

Seriously, though...Africa. Fuck Asia, Asia shouldn't enter into discussions of colonialism considering that the only true colonies in Asia are still cesspools now that they're independent.

Furthermore, look at Russia's former colonies in Asia...they actually WISH they were still part of Russia.

Freedom to do stupid shit is not greater than order. Freedom from foreign rule is worth exactly what is done with it. Africa isn't worth shit.

HappyOldGuy
18th March 09, 03:05 PM
South America is mostly still a shithole and has been independent longer than anywhere else. However, I blame that mainly on the Spanish and Portuguese being Catholic pieces of shit.

Seriously, though...Africa. Fuck Asia, Asia shouldn't enter into discussions of colonialism considering that the only true colonies in Asia are still cesspools now that they're independent.

Furthermore, look at Russia's former colonies in Asia...they actually WISH they were still part of Russia.

Freedom to do stupid shit is not greater than order. Freedom from foreign rule is worth exactly what is done with it. Africa isn't worth shit.

Yeah, fuck singapore, fuck india, fuck vietnam, they have nothing to do with this argument.

(onaccounta they completely debunk it)

Zendetta
18th March 09, 03:10 PM
Except that is exactly what the colonial apologists do pointing to places like rwanda and ignoring the entire continents of asia and south amierica.

Good stuff. So what is your take on South Africa?

HappyOldGuy
18th March 09, 03:11 PM
Good stuff. So what is your take on South Africa?
It has alot of problems, but it may surprise alot of folks to know that overall the economy has improved post apartheid. Also, I think that colonialism is something different than minority rule.

The improvement didn't surprise me, but I was pretty surprised when I went and looked at the numbers at how little white flight there has been.

Zendetta
18th March 09, 03:21 PM
Truth and Reconciliation FTW.

Don't you think some of that economic success could have resulted from dropped sanctions and/or an improved tourism industry, however?

HappyOldGuy
18th March 09, 03:30 PM
Truth and Reconciliation FTW.

Don't you think some of that economic success could have resulted from dropped sanctions and/or an improved tourism industry, however?
Sanctions helped for sure. I'm not sure about tourism.

(it's not like I'm an expert on the subject, it's just something I looked into out of curiousity)

Zendetta
18th March 09, 03:34 PM
tourism is very big in South Africa. I'd wager that plenty of folks didn't want to go their under aparthied rule.

bob
18th March 09, 04:18 PM
My conversations with Sth Africans about their country often go something along the lines of:

Them: 'Argle bargle ... country's gone to shit ... crime ... poverty ...'
Me: 'Is it possible you're just now seeing problems that were always there before?'
Them: blank look

Also, HOG, Singapore is not really a fair example considering there was basically nothing there except a grass hut and a rowboat before the British purpose-built a city state.

Dark Helmet
18th March 09, 04:18 PM
South America is mostly still a shithole and has been independent longer than anywhere else. However, I blame that mainly on the Spanish and Portuguese being Catholic pieces of shit.

So, those people are poor because they're religious or because they're Catholic? Can you blame Iceland's economic collapse on those people being Lutherans?????



Furthermore, look at Russia's former colonies in Asia...they actually WISH they were still part of Russia.

There's no fucking way The Ukraine, Armenia, Azerbaijian or any of the Baltic states would ever have the thought cross their minds to return to Russian control. And Moldova would probably be better off joining Romania.

Quikfeet509
18th March 09, 05:28 PM
Err Franco1981? Or at least that's whe way idiots on the internet usually make the case he seemed to want to make.


You assume much, kinda like how idiots on the internets do when they want to make some PC hippie nonsense comment.

HappyOldGuy
18th March 09, 07:37 PM
You assume much, kinda like how idiots on the internets do when they want to make some PC hippie nonsense comment.

Prove me wrong. It's pretty easy. All you need to do is present a reasonable argument that former colonial possesions were better off over all as colonies than they are today without cherry picking.

Not gonna hold my breath tho.

Cullion
18th March 09, 07:51 PM
Prove me wrong. It's pretty easy. All you need to do is present a reasonable argument that former colonial possesions were better off over all as colonies than they are today without cherry picking.

Not gonna hold my breath tho.

Actually, the evidence is on balance against you on every economic measure except 'racial equality'. Whatever that's supposed to be.

I don't have to defend my culture on this score. We had anti-slavery patrols and indian members of parliament when your folks were still wondering whether Joseph Smith had made up his insane story about scriptures from another planet and going to war over whether slavery was wrong.

Quikfeet509
18th March 09, 08:24 PM
Prove me wrong. It's pretty easy. All you need to do is present a reasonable argument that former colonial possesions were better off over all as colonies than they are today without cherry picking.

Not gonna hold my breath tho.



Hey smart guy, I wasn't making an argument. I was saying at this point, the thread would become much more exciting if we tackled that fun topic.



If you want to actually argue with me, you could say that it is my responsibility to provide free care to people in countries that were former colonies or some crap like that.

Then it would be game on. Right now, your argument about a non-argument is major bore.

Cullion
18th March 09, 08:26 PM
Actually, that was HoG's point. Because his white guilt levels are absurd.

new2bjj
18th March 09, 09:29 PM
Asian postmaster takes immigration stand by banning customers who can't speak English

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1162957/Asian-postmaster-takes-immigration-stand-banning-customers-speak-English.html?ITO=1490

Mr Kumarasiri, who taught his two young daughters every word of the National Anthem and is encouraging them to join the RAF when they grow up, introduced a controversial new regime at his post office counter.

If his customers can't be bothered to learn English, he tells them, they must go away and learn it before he serves them.

His bold stand against non-integration has sent a shudder of political correctness down whatever spine the post office has these days, and infuriated some local do-gooders who accused him of inciting division among the community.

But even a few minutes spent with the 40-year-old Liberal Democrat councillor is about all it takes to establish that his motives are pure - and that he's driven only by a passion for the country he loves so much.
'Nobody stands up for anything in Britain any more,' he said.

'It's the best country in the world as far as I'm concerned, but the great country I once called Great Britain has changed a lot since I came here. All I'm doing is telling people that if they want to live in Britain, be British.

'Don't boo our soldiers when they come home from Iraq. Don't live your life without embracing our culture. Don't stay here without making any effort to learn the language. And if you don't want to be British, go home.'

-------------

I like this guy. I know allot of Americans who would be much happier in France.

I'm sure a lot Americans would be happy if you were in France.

Of course, all the French wouldn't be happy, but hey, maybe you can teach them how to speak Amurican.

new2bjj
18th March 09, 09:33 PM
Actually, that was HoG's point. Because his white guilt levels are absurd.

Cullion, you have missed one salient point- The USA is a former colony. I don't think anyone here misses English rule. Though we do have a few fruity drama and English professors that seem to miss royalty, but what are you gonna do?

HappyOldGuy
18th March 09, 09:33 PM
Actually, the evidence is on balance against you on every economic measure except 'racial equality'. Whatever that's supposed to be.

I don't have to defend my culture on this score. We had anti-slavery patrols and indian members of parliament when your folks were still wondering whether Joseph Smith had made up his insane story about scriptures from another planet and going to war over whether slavery was wrong.
err, according to exactly what economic measure was india better in 1946 than it is today?

I do believe you lost track of the thread old chap.

Also, I only feel white guilt towards hot south asian chicks. I seek absolution.

DAYoung
18th March 09, 10:25 PM
Why More Equal Societies Almost Always Do Better

http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/books/non-fiction/article5859108.ece

Truculent Sheep
19th March 09, 09:30 AM
Err Franco1981? Or at least that's whe way idiots on the internet usually make the case he seemed to want to make.

The fact remains that your view of Colonialism is slanted - no one here is arguing that we (the UK) retake Nigeria. My point is, rather, that all those Nigerians going forth into the world and making something of themselves are the results, in part, of the mixed bag 'o consequences that Colonialism left behind.

And don't give me the 'We're An Ex-Colony Too!' nonsense. It smacks ever so slightly of chippy self-indulgence. The American Revolution had its roots in the English political conflicts of the 17th Century and the Enlightenment and should be seen in that context rather than the decolonisation struggles of the post-WW2 era.

Cullion is of course right here: you confuse self-flagellation for personal virtue. A Mozambiquan kid who's dirt poor, meanwhile, really doesn't give a flying fuck about whether it's the Portugese, the government or the Chinese that's not helping him out of the shit.

new2bjj
19th March 09, 09:42 AM
How is it nonsense? We wanted you out. EVERYONE wanted you out, except some lackies who would topple without you. You guys were no better than people that do home invasions, except you wrapped yourselves in a flag and beat people over the head with your King James Bible. Ugh.

Truculent Sheep
19th March 09, 10:03 AM
How is it nonsense? We wanted you out. EVERYONE wanted you out, except some lackies who would topple without you. You guys were no better than people that do home invasions, except you wrapped yourselves in a flag and beat people over the head with your King James Bible. Ugh.

Oh dear, someone took their High School history lessons a little too seriously... Firstly, the American War of Indepedence could in fact be considered the first American Civil War as the colonists were pretty split over the matter. (New York, for example, was Tory.) More to the point, since at that point there wasn't much difference between 'Americans' and 'British', using the term 'we' is a bit silly.

Also, everyone who was an anglophone Protestant used the King James bible back then. Again, you're missing the point, that the American War of Indepedence was the product of factors irrelevant to discussions about Colonialism in the present context.

HappyOldGuy
19th March 09, 10:43 AM
The fact remains that your view of Colonialism is slanted - no one here is arguing that we (the UK) retake Nigeria. My point is, rather, that all those Nigerians going forth into the world and making something of themselves are the results, in part, of the mixed bag 'o consequences that Colonialism left behind.

Cullion is of course right here: you confuse self-flagellation for personal virtue. A Mozambiquan kid who's dirt poor, meanwhile, really doesn't give a flying fuck about whether it's the Portugese, the government or the Chinese that's not helping him out of the shit.
You don't have the slightest idea what my views of colonialism are, and Cullion is trolling.

Now excuse me, I'm feeling wracked by self guilt.

Or possibly it's the fish I had last night.

new2bjj
19th March 09, 10:52 AM
Oh dear, someone took their High School history lessons a little too seriously... Firstly, the American War of Indepedence could in fact be considered the first American Civil War as the colonists were pretty split over the matter. (New York, for example, was Tory.) More to the point, since at that point there wasn't much difference between 'Americans' and 'British', using the term 'we' is a bit silly.

Also, everyone who was an anglophone Protestant used the King James bible back then. Again, you're missing the point, that the American War of Indepedence was the product of factors irrelevant to discussions about Colonialism in the present context.

I am well aware that people were split on loyalty to the king or starting a new republic. I just don't see much evidence of us in the US saying "Hey, come on back, we didn't know what to do without you". Actual, most people were probably too busy scoraging for food to care one way or another.

And, you may recall, that there were Indians/Native Americans, and you sure the hell can't say they are better off, excluding the casinos they have gotten for an exceptionally tiny minority of their survivors.

What you need to do is go get a fancy haircut, a cheap synthesizer and sing for your supper, like back in the 80's. That's about the bast chance of returning to your former glory, really.

Quikfeet509
19th March 09, 10:58 AM
Actually one could argue that Native Americans that assimilated to Amerikan culture are much better off than the ones that continue to live on the reservations with an incredibly high poverty level.


But right now, I'm more focused on the merits of liberal versus conservative intraoperative fluid management to get drawn into this BS.

new2bjj
19th March 09, 11:48 AM
Jesus, and you may be going into a field where it might invole the care and well being of actual living humans. That's frightening.

So, the ones that "assimilated" are better off then ones that live n "reservations", after they were all but wiped out and their off life destroyed. Well, you're probably right.

Zendetta
19th March 09, 11:55 AM
He's not totally wrong though. THe Cherokee already had a well developed society, and they consolidated and made peace with the Anglo settlers. This resulted in a period of time when they had their own land and economy, and were quite successful. (they also owned many slaves).

And, uh, then the Trail of Tears happened...

Quikfeet509
19th March 09, 12:22 PM
Jesus, and you may be going into a field where it might invole the care and well being of actual living humans. That's frightening.

BLAH BLAH BLAH.

I actually have donated time to work in free clinics. How about you?




So, the ones that "assimilated" are better off then ones that live n "reservations", after they were all but wiped out and their off life destroyed. Well, you're probably right.


Life sucked for 99% of all people up until about 50 years ago, a fact that apologists seem to always ignore. Throughout history, after being raped and pillaged it is usually in the best interest of the victimized group to integrate with the dominant culture if they are given the opportunity.

It isn't fair, it isn't nice, but it is true.

bob
19th March 09, 02:26 PM
ExWfh6sGyso

HappyOldGuy
19th March 09, 02:28 PM
Of course about 50 years later the romans burned Jerusalem to the ground, and 50 years after that they wiped Judea off the face of the earth forever. But hey...plumbing!

bob
19th March 09, 02:35 PM
They should have been more grateful and not revolted against their betters.

bob
19th March 09, 02:38 PM
Anyway, my point was actually going to be that Britain was a Roman colony (to it's ultimate benefit), a Saxon conquest, a Norman conquest etc.

If they'd only let the Nazis in then Cullion would be writing this thread about the glories of the 1000 year Reich.

Liffguard
19th March 09, 03:06 PM
If they'd only let the Nazis in then Cullion would be writing this thread about the glories of the 1000 year Reich.

If we'd let the Nazis in then there's a very good chance we'd actually be Soviets. As a result of being dominated by a centralised, socialist dictatorship from Moscow, Scotland's government expenditure would actually be lower.

Truculent Sheep
19th March 09, 05:00 PM
II just don't see much evidence of us in the US saying "Hey, come on back, we didn't know what to do without you".

Where did I say this? That wasn't my point and you know it.


Actual, most people were probably too busy scoraging for food to care one way or another.

Well, that certainly expanded the boundaries of US historical research.


And, you may recall, that there were Indians/Native Americans, and you sure the hell can't say they are better off, excluding the casinos they have gotten for an exceptionally tiny minority of their survivors.

You mean the Natives who got all but wiped out by the US Government? Who the British authorities tried to protect from predatory colonists before the war?


What you need to do is go get a fancy haircut, a cheap synthesizer and sing for your supper, like back in the 80's. That's about the bast chance of returning to your former glory, really.

You leave Trent Reznor out of this.

Truculent Sheep
19th March 09, 05:03 PM
You don't have the slightest idea what my views of colonialism are,

Other than they're crap and ill-informed?


and Cullion is trolling.

Speak for yourself.


Now excuse me, I'm feeling wracked by self guilt.

Or possibly it's the fish I had last night.

Hopefully it's Listeria.

new2bjj
19th March 09, 08:48 PM
BLAH BLAH BLAH.

I actually have donated time to work in free clinics. How about you?





Life sucked for 99% of all people up until about 50 years ago, a fact that apologists seem to always ignore. Throughout history, after being raped and pillaged it is usually in the best interest of the victimized group to integrate with the dominant culture if they are given the opportunity.

It isn't fair, it isn't nice, but it is true.

Well, when England gets raped and pillaged, they'll be able to do it with a stiff upper lip, right?

new2bjj
19th March 09, 09:05 PM
When I think of England's most recent successes I was thinking more like this-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5c0NeG-8ZI

Cullion
19th March 09, 09:11 PM
Lol. That video is not available in the UK. ho ho ho.

Cullion
19th March 09, 09:15 PM
Well, when England gets raped and pillaged, they'll be able to do it with a stiff upper lip, right?

The stiff upper lip is almost totally dead. It's being just about kept alive but it's in no way a characteristic of the normal average brit now.

DAYoung
19th March 09, 09:18 PM
Cullion, I'd still like your comments on this (http://www.sociocide.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1396704&postcount=104) post.

Cullion
19th March 09, 09:44 PM
Cullion, I've some comments and questions for you.

1. Modern philosophy of history began with Giambattista Vico. Along with some other impressive insights, Vico believed civilisations were cyclical (he posited three ages). Instead of being linear or disconnected, he saw distinct stages, each with their own common characteristics.

Leaving the detail - divine, heroic, human ages, Providence - aside, do you think all societies are subject to laws of growth and degeneration, or other cyclical laws?

I am not familliar with Vico's work, but I have a hunch that civilisations do indeed experience cycles. I also (intuitively, rather than academically) think some civilsations have a better tolerance to cohere through those cycles than others.

Chinese culture, for example, is one that I think has somehow got a greater ability to maintain cohesion than Western European civilisations that rise and fall.

I also believe (no anti-semitic trolling going on here) that Jewish culture seems well-set for the 'long haul'.



2. If so, can these be understood naturalistically, e.g. organic growth and decay, subject to principles of entropy? (Not actually organisms, but like them.)

Yes, very much so. Again, I'm speaking intuitively rather than being able to produce something that would hold up to peer review.



3. And if so, can this decline be reversed, and how? What structures and forces are necessary to stop or reverse the tendency of living systems to decline?

Well, by examining Chinese and Jewish culture, I notice some differences to Western European culture that may be relevant.

i) A degree of linguistic continuity. I cannot completely put my finger on it, but I have a hunch that the ideas of your predecessors 3000-years hence being more readily accessible to people today helps anchor a culture. Even if they strongly disagree with the mores of those people, simply being able to share them and talk about them, rather than being almost totally ignorant of them, sort of acts as a break on these cultural decay processes. At a guess.

ii) Both Chinese, and to a huge extend, Jewish culture have had to learned to survive in prolonged diaspora. Note: Not empire as conquerers, but diaspora.

They've learned how to be 'themselves' without the priviledge of being 'in charge'.
This seems like an essential skill for long term survival of a cultural meme to me. Nobody can be top dog all the time, not for many hundreds of years anyway. A healthy diaspora that knows how to 'get along' when somebody else is strutting the roost seems to be a key ingredient in both keeping hold of your cultural treasures and forming a fertile ground for a resurgence when times are more in your favour.



4. If 3. is possible, what might Britain be aiming for? To return to Vico (and more precisely, to Herder), does Britain have her own unique, distinctive kinds of flourishing, or do all healthy societies exhibit the same generic traits? Practically speaking, can Britain be Athens or Weimar, or even Victorian? Or must it achieve some novel, unrecorded health and wealth?

This is the big question. I believe it can, and I believe we've already achieved some unique greatnesses which in our current decline we barely seem worthy of.

We not only voluntarily and democractically renounced slavery, but we committed our free-born citizens to military service to stamp it out in others.

We gave the world the King James Bible, Shakespeare and, of course, Rugby.

British people (some of them working abroad) built the first electronic computer, stood alone for several years against the might of Nazi Germany, invented the Jet Engine, the Television, the Telephone, the World-Wide Web, Penicillin and many of the first organ transplants.

We have so much more to offer, should the right people and ideas get back into the hot seat, and we want to remember that 'British' doesn't just refer to a small group of Islands off of north-western Europe. Whether you like it or not, I genuinely consider the Australians, Canadians and New Zealanders here British, and likewise for all the other commonwealth nations.

We no longer want, nor need, to carry some kind of racist 'white man's burden'. Being British is a cultural ideal that can (and often is) carried just as firmly and well by a black man from the Caribbean as it is by a white man from New Zealand.

I'd rather we had a very liberal free trade and travel agreement with the commonwealth than with the EU in it's current form. More varied, fun and less bureaucratic.



All very meta-historical, I realise. But it might be suggestive.

No, I'm absolutely with you on this. I'd like to carry on fleshing it out with your help and acute questioning when you have time to post.

Truculent Sheep
20th March 09, 07:30 AM
Chinese culture, for example, is one that I think has somehow got a greater ability to maintain cohesion than Western European civilisations that rise and fall.

I also believe (no anti-semitic trolling going on here) that Jewish culture seems well-set for the 'long haul'.

The Chinese and the Jews have much in common - they bring wealth and opportunity to their host countries and in return both occasionally get raped, murdered and burnt out. No good deed goes unpunished.


We no longer want, nor need, to carry some kind of racist 'white man's burden'. Being British is a cultural ideal that can (and often is) carried just as firmly and well by a black man from the Caribbean as it is by a white man from New Zealand.

You're suggesting, therefore, a transformation of 'Britishness' into a cultural ideal, like that of American or Roman citizenship. My only question is how the hell you're going to convince the apathetic, self-absorbed and cowardly people of the UK to see it like this. (Since that will be the necessary first step - no point convincing other countries if you can't do it yourself.)


I'd rather we had a very liberal free trade and travel agreement with the commonwealth than with the EU in it's current form. More varied, fun and less bureaucratic.

But again, how are you going to convince the prevailing political culture of this country to attempt this?

Truculent Sheep
20th March 09, 07:32 AM
Well, when England gets raped and pillaged, they'll be able to do it with a stiff upper lip, right?

Limeys... Bad Teeth... Benny Hill... The Spice Girls... Must keep up cliches. Must keep up cliches. Otherwise may have to think. The Horror. The Horror.

HappyOldGuy
20th March 09, 10:34 AM
You'll be happy to know my tummy is feeling better. Lamb for dinner last night.

new2bjj
20th March 09, 10:47 AM
Limeys... Bad Teeth... Benny Hill... The Spice Girls... Must keep up cliches. Must keep up cliches. Otherwise may have to think. The Horror. The Horror.

Hell, in all those movies made in England, you guys seem to keep a pretty stoic expression when getting sodomized- you know "prick up your ears" etc. Hell, I thought the whole stoic thing was a good adaptation to the troubles over there. Now, you're telling me you don't even have that?

Well, at least you have Sascha Baron Cohen to come over and look down on our great unwashed, not that we don't deserve sometimes....

TM
20th March 09, 12:43 PM
Actually, the evidence is on balance against you on every economic measure except 'racial equality'. Whatever that's supposed to be.

I don't have to defend my culture on this score. We had anti-slavery patrols and indian members of parliament when your folks were still wondering whether Joseph Smith had made up his insane story about scriptures from another planet and going to war over whether slavery was wrong.

I could write books about both of those topics, buy it wouldn't contribute to this one so.......another time.

Kein Haar
20th March 09, 02:09 PM
As squirrely as NOB is, he's got a point.

HappyOldGuy
20th March 09, 02:11 PM
As squirrely as NOB is, he's got a point.

When it's cold out he has two.

Otherwise, notsomuch.

new2bjj
20th March 09, 04:55 PM
Yes, the American's who would be happy are the hippies who should be in France in the first place.

I am going to find your favorite magazine and put poop mustaches on all of the guys you twaddle your tweedle to.

Then I am going to call your mother and pretend I am your flatmate and complain that you are using literature for TP again. During the conversation I will stop for a second and say "Just a minute, your son is asking me if I want a BJ now or right before bed"

Then I will find and document UV light evidence that you find wool sweaters erotic.

Is this what your ex wife did to you? I know you're not that creative.

When I here little wannabe's like Nun talk, I think of a quote by Alan Moore, author of "Watchmen"-

"I had to look at The Fountainhead. I have to say I found Ayn Rand's philosophy laughable. It was a "white supremacist dreams of the master race," burnt in an early-20th century form. Her ideas didn't really appeal to me, but they seemed to be the kind of ideas that people would espouse, people who might secretly believe themselves to be part of the elite, and not part of the excluded majority. "

Cullion
20th March 09, 05:15 PM
err, according to exactly what economic measure was india better in 1946 than it is today?

Trains running on time.

Yes, I went there. But only because you forced me to.



I do believe you lost track of the thread old chap.

Also, I only feel white guilt towards hot south asian chicks. I seek absolution.

I have such stories to share with you if we ever get to sup ale together.

DAYoung
20th March 09, 05:20 PM
Thanks for your thoughtful reply to my history speculations.

I will get back to you.

Cullion
20th March 09, 05:22 PM
Cullion, you have missed one salient point- The USA is a former colony. I don't think anyone here misses English rule. Though we do have a few fruity drama and English professors that seem to miss royalty, but what are you gonna do?

The US has won the right not to be British by defeating us in warfare. Do with it what you will. I like much of what your culture has produced. I know it's far past the ability of any polemicist to bring you back into the Commonwealth fold. Hopefully we'll carry on getting on well enough to make travel between our countries easy, nad we'll still help each other out how we can when a serious fight pops up its head.

Zendetta
20th March 09, 05:29 PM
The US has won the right not to be British by defeating us in warfare.

USA! USA! USA!

uh, with a little Viva La France too......

new2bjj
20th March 09, 05:30 PM
If I am a 'little wannabe' then you are a gigantic fraud. You talk so much out of your ass I'll bet your mouth has been relegated to pooping duty.

And as far as being part of the elite, I just got my membership card last month. It is good for 5 years.
You're drivers license? A Visa card? Good luck!

new2bjj
20th March 09, 05:33 PM
The US has won the right not to be British by defeating us in warfare. Do with it what you will. I like much of what your culture has produced. I know it's far past the ability of any polemicist to bring you back into the Commonwealth fold. Hopefully we'll carry on getting on well enough to make travel between our countries easy, nad we'll still help each other out how we can when a serious fight pops up its head.

As much as I enjoy tormenting you limeys, you are one of the few countries that speaks English, and that is cause for celebration! What makes me even happier is upsetting little objectivists like Nun. Carry on!

Cullion
20th March 09, 05:37 PM
The Chinese and the Jews have much in common - they bring wealth and opportunity to their host countries and in return both occasionally get raped, murdered and burnt out. No good deed goes unpunished.

They also both seem to have endured those horrors in a way which the I think the meme of 'Britishness' can learn from. I believe it's worth surviving because we've done some good things which shouldn't just stand alone, but I'd like the best of the culture that produced those things to be identified and remembered.

My descendants 1 or 3 generations hence may well not live in the British Isles, but I'd like them to carry the valuables with them. I won't be there.



You're suggesting, therefore, a transformation of 'Britishness' into a cultural ideal, like that of American or Roman citizenship. My only question is how the hell you're going to convince the apathetic, self-absorbed and cowardly people of the UK to see it like this. (Since that will be the necessary first step - no point convincing other countries if you can't do it yourself.)

I'm not sure if I can, but thankfully they aren't all like that.



But again, how are you going to convince the prevailing political culture of this country to attempt this?

I don't think I can rely on our political culture for anything any more.

I do posts like this in part because I think there are people outside it who might just prick their ears up and feel, at least a bit, motivated to carry on without needing some crappy end-of-cycle bureacracy to do it for them.

I still have romantic ideas about the remnant here, and the sharp anti-authoritarian diaspora from places like Australia we see here on Sociocide.
They can't understand why I'm bothering. I'm quite sure it all seems a bit archaic and absurd at first.

But I know how many of them still volunteer for combat duty in our army. That basically trumps all the chit-chat.

I think you're one of such people at heart. Annoying, isn't it?

Zendetta
20th March 09, 05:38 PM
NOB, isn't an Objectivist. He just posts a lot of silly shit I object to.

Cullion
20th March 09, 05:55 PM
Nob is actually a highly intelligent man who likes to mess around and tease because he's still turning over his religious upbringing in the back of his mind.

Zendetta
20th March 09, 05:58 PM
I can forgive everything, even the Britney obsession, except for his stoopid ass parody threads that he posts ten times per day.

His poetry is exquisite, however.

Cullion
20th March 09, 06:12 PM
Exquisite poetry excuses all. He's part of the secret senate. He just chooses to stand back and tease.

He's still one of us, whether he likes it or not.

Truculent Sheep
20th March 09, 07:18 PM
I think you're one of such people at heart. Annoying, isn't it?

Not really. I just feel that there's a point where dedication turns into masochism. I do of course admit to the sin of scorn, but then again, there is only so much you can do for some people.

Truculent Sheep
20th March 09, 07:19 PM
As much as I enjoy tormenting you limeys, you are one of the few countries that speaks English

Are you hoping we'll give you free lessons? OK, just remember it's spelt 'grey' and we walk on the 'pavement'. There - you're learning already.

new2bjj
20th March 09, 07:25 PM
To that I shall quote Prince Charles-

Britain's Prince Charles has criticized the poor standards of English grammar in the United Kingdom. The prince - who was speaking at the Georgian Group awards in London's The Ritz hotel Wednesday - insisted people need to concentrate on using apostrophes properly and constructing sentences correctly.

He said: "It seems to me that you need to remind people every now and then that you can't communicate to people in a language unless you know the grammar and the syntax and, indeed, the punctuation."

Meanwhile, the prince also said Muslim communities have "enriched Britain in every sense" as he attended The Mosaic Talent Awards, a ceremony paying tribute to talented British Muslims, with Jordan's Princess Badiya bint El Hassan in London last night.

He said: "I was fascinated to hear the views of the imam of the Leeds Makkah Mosque (in the north of England) on how, through a wide range of initiatives including Mosaic, Britain seeks to integrate rather than isolate its minority communities and offers real freedom of choice and of expression."

"I have to say that it is this acceptance - indeed, this welcome - of diversity which makes me rather proud to be British."

Truculent Sheep
20th March 09, 07:36 PM
Quoting Prince Charles in this case is like bringing a bottle of Blue Nun to a wine tasting evening - technically speaking, it's sort of relevant but ultimately pointless.

HappyOldGuy
20th March 09, 08:00 PM
That reminds me.

Cullion, you seem to have a decent amount of emotional attachment to the current monarch. Does it end after this generation?

The attachment, not the monarchy.

danno
20th March 09, 09:23 PM
stiff upper lip and all that.

iu13UrF3UDU

Odacon
21st March 09, 02:12 PM
Here's what I think, and by think, I mean lazily slapped together:

Yob6FejcU1g
Q8oEaYnm9Fk
lJWf4Ri5a-Y

Cullion
22nd March 09, 03:50 PM
That reminds me.

Cullion, you seem to have a decent amount of emotional attachment to the current monarch. Does it end after this generation?

The attachment, not the monarchy.

That doesn't have a simple answer for me.

On the one hand, I'm not a Republican.

On the other, can I see any logical absurdity or even political danger in hereditary roles like that of the Queen? Yes.

It has to be strictly kept ceremonial and act as a kind of cultural glue to be valuable, otherwise it's a form of hereditary dictatorship.

For a range of odd reasons, I find our current elected government to be a far greater wasteful burden on my finances and threat to my civil liberties than the ceremonial, hereditary 'tribal leader' that the Queen represents.

I also find that the better members of the younger generation of the Royal family are more in touch and deserving of the respect of ordinary British people than, say, younger members of our political class.

Try to picture Chelsea Clinton or Euan Blair serving in uniform in a place like Afghanistan. That's the kind of weird cultural disconnect I'm talking about.

bob
22nd March 09, 03:59 PM
Hey Cullion, I watched a Ricky Gervais stand-up DVD last night and was left with the conclusion that political incorrectness was alive and well in Britain. You should try it, it'll make you feel better.

bob
22nd March 09, 04:09 PM
-cwPWqfzulc&feature=related

Start at about 1.55

DAYoung
22nd March 09, 04:35 PM
"We're sorry. This video is no longer available."

omg cencorsheep r sux0r drakonien legislashun

FITE DA POWERZ DAT BE!!!!

bob
23rd March 09, 05:45 AM
Huh? Works for me. I think the Melbourne battlements of the Great Australian Firewall (otherwise known as Rudd's GAF) must be higher than ours.

Truculent Sheep
23rd March 09, 08:09 AM
"We're sorry. This video is no longer available."

omg cencorsheep r sux0r drakonien legislashun

FITE DA POWERZ DAT BE!!!!

Now just why would the Oz government want to censor the web?

_ipvdBnU8F8

Cullion
23rd March 09, 02:28 PM
That was beautiful. Can the Australian posters see it without using a proxy ?

Cullion
23rd March 09, 02:30 PM
How about this site?

www.wikileaks.org

There's info about sites banned in Australia on there.

Robot Jesus
24th March 09, 02:08 PM
What have the Tories been up to? The only parties I have any familiarity with are Labour and the BNP.

Truculent Sheep
24th March 09, 03:52 PM
BNP watchers need only go HERE (http://eppingforestbnp.blogspot.com/) to see what the darling fascist shitbags are up to these days.

BTW, Rudd looks like the sort of Geography teacher who has bits of rolled up paper thrown at him in class when his back's turned.

Cullion
24th March 09, 05:23 PM
What have the Tories been up to?

Rebranding themselves as ecologically caring non-racist people who understand how hard life is for poor people but have adapted/spun their free market ideology into something liberal sounding that champions ordinary people against bureacracy, draconian surveillance and wasteful spending.

I don't know how it will work out in practice. It's worth a try. I'm a pretty cynical guy.

HappyOldGuy
24th March 09, 08:22 PM
Rebranding themselves as ecologically caring non-racist people who understand how hard life is for poor people but have adapted/spun their free market ideology into something liberal sounding that champions ordinary people against bureacracy, draconian surveillance and wasteful spending.

I don't know how it will work out in practice. It's worth a try. I'm a pretty cynical guy.

Isn't that basically thatcher v2.0, or does it just look that way from here?

DAYoung
24th March 09, 08:29 PM
I think the ecological stuff is new. Tories and the landed gentry = vision of national bucolic charm, threatened by progressives? (I can't confirm this.)

Cullion
16th May 09, 02:53 PM
Isn't that basically thatcher v2.0, or does it just look that way from here?

It's much less strident than Thatcher's vision. Aside from the ecological stuff, the vision was broadly the same, but the need was more pressing to the man in the street because general strikes were sweeping the country and trash was piling up uncollected in huge piles.

The presentation isn't anywhere near as combative.

Cullion
16th May 09, 02:56 PM
I think the ecological stuff is new. Tories and the landed gentry = vision of national bucolic charm, threatened by progressives? (I can't confirm this.)

I think that's a previous generation's Toryism. You can't win an election appealing to that any more, because that past is a foreign country to so many.

It's more to do with appealing to taxi drivers, self employed construction workers and white collar private sector workers that they're going to take a stand against wasteful public spending and suffocating bureaucracy whilst making quieter noises about 'family values' and 'supporting our armed forces' and 'standing up to the EU' to appease their traditional core voters and party activists who may defect to something like UKIP or, horrors, the BNP.

They're largely defining themselves in terms of what they're against, which is all they need to do to win the next election with Labour so desperately unpopular.

The Labour party under Gordon Brown has never had such poor poll results as they are presently receiving since polling records began. The whole reputation of British Democracy is currently reeling from revelations about MPs abuse of the parliamentary expenses system, which takes the stridency out of all the party leaderships' campaigning because they're currently competing to appear humble whilst skirting around admitting that any of their members committed a crime.

DAYoung
16th May 09, 05:13 PM
I think that's a previous generation's Toryism. You can't win an election appealing to that any more, because that past is a foreign country to so many.

It's more to do with appealing to taxi drivers, self employed construction workers and white collar private sector workers that they're going to take a stand against wasteful public spending and suffocating bureaucracy whilst making quieter noises about 'family values' and 'supporting our armed forces' and 'standing up to the EU' to appease their traditional core voters and party activists who may defect to something like UKIP or, horrors, the BNP.

They're largely defining themselves in terms of what they're against, which is all they need to do to win the next election with Labour so desperately unpopular.

The Labour party under Gordon Brown has never had such poor poll results as they are presently receiving since polling records began. The whole reputation of British Democracy is currently reeling from revelations about MPs abuse of the parliamentary expenses system, which takes the stridency out of all the party leaderships' campaigning because they're currently competing to appear humble whilst skirting around admitting that any of their members committed a crime.

Sounds familiar.

Cullion
16th May 09, 05:23 PM
Yeah, it's pretty how much how the Tories handed over to Labour.

Disenchantment with corruption in the ruling party, a younger, more handsome and less tainted leader of the challengers. Really very fine distinctions in actual political programme. You really have to be quite a current affairs/politics nerd to spot the concrete differences.

The difference of nuance is that this time the challengers are promising (in vague terms) to deal with 'wasteful spending' rather than 'under investment'.

That's how history rhymes without repeating for me, anyway. Were you thinking of a different similarity? Something familiar in Australian politics?

There are not as yet any clear differences in proposed public spending figures or departmental budgets. That might be unfair of me to expect, as they're going to have to see how fucked the public finances are when they win before they can plan that responsibly.

Some, but few, clear initiatives explaining which laws allowing draconian abuse of surveillance powers and 'anti terrorism' legislation will actually be repealed.

DAYoung
16th May 09, 05:31 PM
Disenchantment with corruption in the ruling party, a younger, more handsome and less tainted leader of the challengers. Really very fine distinctions in actual political programme. You really have to be quite a current affairs/politics nerd to spot the concrete differences.

Tell me what you think of this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Rudd#Political_views).

Cullion
16th May 09, 05:38 PM
It sounds like the same man wrote his soundbites that wrote Blair's.

In practice we had a substantial expansion in state employment and bureaucratic regulation, whilst certain industries (usually the ones with nice offices in central London that basically speculate rather than produce) were entertained at cocktail parties and given favourable tax treatment whilst the rest of the country was allowed to mistake a credit-fuelled consumer spending spree for real economic growth, ending of course in disaster.

I regard the 'third way' as a form of soft fascism, in the strictly economic sense.

Is that how things are running down under ?

As far as I'm aware you aren't enduring the kind of restrictions on long-honoured civil liberties that we are, at least. But then I know less about Australian politics than you seem to know about British.

DAYoung
16th May 09, 07:00 PM
It sounds like the same man wrote his soundbites that wrote Blair's.

In practice we had a substantial expansion in state employment and bureaucratic regulation, whilst certain industries (usually the ones with nice offices in central London that basically speculate rather than produce) were entertained at cocktail parties and given favourable tax treatment whilst the rest of the country was allowed to mistake a credit-fuelled consumer spending spree for real economic growth, ending of course in disaster.

I regard the 'third way' as a form of soft fascism, in the strictly economic sense.

Is that how things are running down under ?

As far as I'm aware you aren't enduring the kind of restrictions on long-honoured civil liberties that we are, at least. But then I know less about Australian politics than you seem to know about British.

The attempts to restrict the internet are disturbing. And Australia has a long history of censorship.

But we've yet to enter the UK's hyper-surveillance zone.

Having said this, certain sectors are invasively monitored: anyone on the dole, for example, is right in the Panopticon.

HappyOldGuy
16th May 09, 07:09 PM
You guys like to mock our whole anal retentiveness about our bill of rights, but if it weren't for our fourth amendment, we would be setting new high marks for surveillance. I think we naturally have stronger fascist tendencies, but we have better protections against ourselves.

Even though I'm sure my politics mostly align with new labor, there is something to be said for cleaning out any party that has been in power for too long. it's one of the reasons I wish the pubs would get back to their small government, cut spending roots and dump the religion crap. because that is exactly what you want in a housecleaning crew.

DAYoung
16th May 09, 07:12 PM
we naturally have stronger stupid tendencies, but we have better protections against reason

That's certainly how it looks from the outside.

HappyOldGuy
16th May 09, 07:17 PM
That's certainly how it looks from the outside.

It's so cute when the barbarian provinces have opinions.

Cullion
16th May 09, 07:24 PM
You guys like to mock our whole anal retentiveness about our bill of rights

Well, I certainly never have. To be honest, I've often taken the weird position for a brit of pointing out that your constitution has been twisted and abused by creative interpretation to weaken its protections on this board, to American posters.


but if it weren't for our fourth amendment, we would be setting new high marks for surveillance. I think we naturally have stronger fascist tendencies, but we have better protections against ourselves.

They only last as long as that document isn't allowed to be creatively interpreted by people with agendas who don't respect the original intent. I hate to say it, but if the people charged with upholding it don't respect its intent then it's 'just a piece of paper'.

We have written rights in the UK too, ancient ones, it's just that they've been creatively interpreted and slathered over with with new statutes for centuries, and most people don't even know what they are any more. There's never been a party stand for election with 'p.s. we're going to repeal sections of Magna Carta, the bill of rights and habeus corpus in our next term, m'kay', in their manifesto.. it just kind of.. happened. With hardly any news coverage. Sophist raised some excellent points about specific civil liberties in the UK early in this thread which I didn't address properly yet.

The same thing will happen and is happening to your constitution too. The Patriot Acts and various other pieces of creative jurisprudence are evidence of this.


Even though I'm sure my politics mostly align with new labor, there is something to be said for cleaning out any party that has been in power for too long. it's one of the reasons I wish the pubs would get back to their small government, cut spending roots and dump the religion crap. because that is exactly what you want in a housecleaning crew.

If you found yourself in the UK with the right to vote, you would find yourself with a range of options. Remember that our whole political spectrum is to the left of yours in many ways, and we have 3 'mainstream' parties rather than 2.

We don't have a religious right of any note here, and all our current mainstream parties are way to the left of much of the Republican Party. None of them are proposing to dismantle our health service. None of them plan to bring the death penalty back. There is no serious mainstream debate about restricting abortion to early-stage abortion for rape victims and mothers whose lives are put at risk by the pregnancy, for example. Whether or not creationism is taught next to evolution in science classes isn't ever discussed here. The concept is kind of absurd and hard for most Europeans to even grasp.

I wouldn't expect you to vote Conservative (you'd probably have problems with the toned down but still present economic Thatcherism and as an American you'd probably find the support for the monarchy and various other undemocratic British institutions plain weird), but the Liberal party might appeal to you more as an economically left-ish anti-war, pro-civil liberties party.

It's been decades since they controlled parliament, but they're still there. Their power base tended to come from the rural non-union farmers, fishermen and lower-middle classes (plus a few liberty-minded members of the upper class) rather than the urban and northern unionised miners, dockers and factory workers who founded Labour (but have now mostly lost control of it), and their strong civil liberties stances (including long standing support for decriminalisation of pot) might be closer to your views than the Labour party.

DAYoung
16th May 09, 07:25 PM
It's so cute when the barbarian provinces have opinions.

Leave Canada alone.

DAYoung
16th May 09, 07:41 PM
Cullion, as an aside, do you think there's a relationship between ethnic pride and national pride?

For example, does the decline of Britain coincide with the decline of Anglo-Saxon dominance?

(And this might not be actual declining dominance - just the feeling of it slipping away.)

Cullion
16th May 09, 07:56 PM
Cullion, as an aside, do you think there's a relationship between ethnic pride and national pride?

For example, does the decline of Britain coincide with the decline of Anglo-Saxon dominance?

(And this might not be actual declining dominance - just the feeling of it slipping away.)

That's the connection that the BNP (i.e. our Pauleen Hansen mob, but with much nastier pasts they're doing their damndest to keep hidden) keep trying to make in people's minds.

Whilst I think our immigration policy is a bit screwed up (on economic grounds, not the balance of skin tones), I don't buy that connection.

The decline is in my view one which is traceable almost entirely to the actions of white politicians from relatively priviledged backgrounds. The Roman empire didn't fall because they allowed Asians and Africans to become citizens, it declined because the ruling elite became absurdly decadent and acted in a wildly irresponsible manner with the state finances and the military in order to try and buy popularity when they could no longer earn respect.

The Ancient Egyptians were actually rescued from a simillar fate by black Kushite neighbours who'd adopted many of their religious and cultural ideals and then invaded to liberate Egypt from Hyksos usurpers who they saw had a stranglehold on their old friends.

So it is with us.

Cullion
16th May 09, 08:01 PM
I'll simplify the race argument further:-

http://www.operations.mod.uk/images/bibp02_tn.jpg

>> * 1 million

http://michaelgreenwell.files.wordpress.com/2007/08/young_tony_blair.jpg

Cullion
16th May 09, 08:06 PM
However, is the reverse true? Is British dominance slipping away underminding 'anglo saxon' pride?

No, cranky left-wing teaching unions, educationalists and public broadcasters fiddling with the history syllabus and other forms of politically correct indoctrination are. These people obviously haven't thought much what might happen if the poor deracinated fuckers had their first lesson on the history of their people come from crypto-Nazis like the BNP.

I think they were thinking it would be ok because they'd just ban it.

Zendetta
16th May 09, 09:33 PM
The decline is in my view one which is traceable almost entirely to the actions of white politicians from relatively priviledged backgrounds. The Roman empire didn't fall because they allowed Asians and Africans to become citizens, it declined because the ruling elite became absurdly decadent and acted in a wildly irresponsible manner with the state finances and the military in order to try and buy popularity when they could no longer earn respect.

Oh My! I'm sure glad nothing like that could ever happen here in the States!


The Ancient Egyptians

Do you remember when you told Poop Loops that the Future would be like Ancient Egypt with Speeder Bikes and Nazi Uniforms?

Cullion
17th May 09, 04:26 AM
I can't remember that one, but it sounds like something I might say. What was the context?

Toby Christensen
18th May 09, 03:37 AM
The solution to people who rape people, or who mistreat children in such a way:

Neuter them. Completely. Bar them from contact with vulnerable people. Make sure their DNA is on a registry.

If by chance they are wanting to store their gametes or be put in suspended animation or breed, disallow this completely.

....

Hang on...

Do I hear the blood dripping from a collective heart? Pray it goes and cleans itself up!

Cullion
18th May 09, 07:09 AM
I'm not sure which post you're replying to here Toby.

Toby Christensen
18th May 09, 08:37 AM
Sorry, wrong part of thread.

Harpy
24th June 09, 02:12 AM
I can't believe this 15 year old boy was allowed to go to school while his teacher was not warned of the fact that he had previously sexually assaulted a cleaner. The teacher (32) was raped by the boy in 2004 and has sued the Westminster City School for their negligence.

The report says the boy is serving a life sentence (WTH?). What type of school allows a student who has sexually assaulted someone to even go to school, let alone do so without supervision or a management plan?

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/world/829257/teacher-raped-at-school-by-student

Cullion
6th July 09, 08:37 AM
I'm not sure where they would have put him otherwise. There's basically no credible system of punishment for kids his age. If not at school, he would have roamed the streets.

I don't for one minute believe he's actually serving a life sentence. That rarely means 'life' for adults in the UK, and it sure as hell won't for somebody convicted as a minor.

Harpy
6th July 09, 05:08 PM
Cullion - I'm not saying that such offenders shouldn't be in public institutions, just that there should have been a management plan (hence disclosure of the facts) for all school staff to use as a guideline, supervision, support from social workers etc.

Cullion
6th July 09, 07:01 PM
Yes, that's what the poor teacher was expecting. The problem is, what would the management plan be ?

If he's a sexually violent and physically strong teenage boy then basically to allow him to mix with unarmed females all day requires him to have somebody chaperoning him who's able to restrain him. This kid doesn't sound like he worries about the consequences of what he's doing enough for 'you behave now, you're being watched' to work.

They'd have to assign him at least one physically strong prison guard figure to follow him around all day ready to restrain him when he decides to get his freak on.

The school should have warned all the teachers about him, certainly. At least if forewarned she could've avoided being alone in a room with him and kept some kind of alarm on her.

Harpy
6th July 09, 07:17 PM
I agree. The school principal is absolutely responsible for what happened, knowingly accepting a student onto the premises without training or warning his staff is absolute failure on his part to do his job.

*************

When I did my teacher training there was a 17 year old student that used to find very difficult to read and at times his behaviour and reactions were disturbing. I felt I couldn't 'reach him' and at times felt confronted but didn't understand the sequence of events that led to him displaying those behaviours. Later I was told by my Master teacher that the student has Asperger's but didn't want anyone to know.

What the hell?! Once I found out I was able to do my research, come up with a plan with my Master teacher, find out how to engage him, communicate with him and I got excellent results out of the kid. Not once did I mention his learning challenges to him or anyone else.

Another time I was preparing a lesson one lunch time alone in a class room and two guys threw another male student into the class and locked the door from the outside. The stupid kid tried to make advances, I climbed out the window as at that point I knew I couldn't kick the shit out of him without failing my training.

So some things you can prepare for and some things you can't I guess.

Artful Dentures
7th July 09, 09:23 AM
I have watched a few episodes of Jamie Oliver where he tries to fix the UK's school lunch program.

Cullion your problems abound in your countries shitty shitty diet.

Seriously though diet is a big issue in behavior everywhere especiall in fast food modern society

The stuff we feed out kids is POISON

Cullion
7th July 09, 01:25 PM
I have watched a few episodes of Jamie Oliver where he tries to fix the UK's school lunch program.

Cullion your problems abound in your countries shitty shitty diet.

Seriously though diet is a big issue in behavior everywhere especiall in fast food modern society

The stuff we feed out kids is POISON

It depends where you live as to how bad it is. My children don't attend any kind of fancy private school and the food is still 'real', but that's a moderately affluent rural area.

I don't know how Canadian and British public school diets compare. I know that French school kids tend to eat much, much better than Brits or Americans.

Another factor would be that the British have only started to relearn how to really cook properly in the last generation, whereas the French never lost the tradition, so I'd guess a higher percentage of British kids (even the ones who live in areas where the school food is decent quality) are going home to synthetic stuff out of packets served with fries than French kids are.

Harpy
8th June 10, 07:21 PM
http://news.ninemsn.com.au/world/1066770/boy-left-in-fire-while-family-dogs-were-rescued

A young boy was left sleeping in a burning house while his 45 year old grandmother rescued the family dogs (4 greyhounds) instead. The boy was rescued by firefighters and is fine.

Cullion
8th June 10, 07:28 PM
I read about it. In large part, I consider it a freak outrider that could happen anywhere. There are plenty of things I would criticise about what Britain has become, but I want to try and avoid simply complaining about things which are the same elsewhere.

Harpy
8th June 10, 07:31 PM
Like Indiana?

Cullion
8th June 10, 07:34 PM
Well, the whole idea of somebody self-absorbed ,and eccentric about their pets, enough to protect them over their own grandchild is kind of shocking, but I doubt if it's an especially British problem. The story just doesn't resonate as an indication of a uniquely British indicator of social malaise. It's too much of a 'one off'.

Harpy
8th June 10, 07:40 PM
The 45 year old grandmother?

Cullion
8th June 10, 07:41 PM
45-year old Grandmothers aren't uncommon in other Anglophone countries either.

danno
8th June 10, 07:55 PM
it's an anecdote, not a statistically significant phenomenon that only occurs in england.

Robot Jesus
12th June 10, 10:32 AM
It depends where you live as to how bad it is. My children don't attend any kind of fancy private school and the food is still 'real', but that's a moderately affluent rural area.

I don't know how Canadian and British public school diets compare. I know that French school kids tend to eat much, much better than Brits or Americans.

Another factor would be that the British have only started to relearn how to really cook properly in the last generation, whereas the French never lost the tradition, so I'd guess a higher percentage of British kids (even the ones who live in areas where the school food is decent quality) are going home to synthetic stuff out of packets served with fries than French kids are.


I remember once they served steak and lobster at my high-school, I was certain they where trying to poison us.

Cullion
16th June 10, 03:55 PM
You mean it was really bad, or you just weren't used to food like that at school ?