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fes_fsa
7th February 09, 01:18 AM
Eighteen and pregnant, Sycloria Williams went to an abortion clinic outside Miami and paid $1,200 for Dr. Pierre Jean-Jacque Renelique to terminate her 23-week pregnancy.

Three days later, she sat in a reclining chair, medicated to dilate her cervix and otherwise get her ready for the procedure.

Only Renelique didn't arrive in time. According to Williams and the Florida Department of Health, she went into labor and delivered a live baby girl.

What Williams and the Health Department say happened next has shocked people on both sides of the abortion debate: One of the clinic's owners, who has no medical license, cut the infant's umbilical cord. Williams says the woman placed the baby in a plastic biohazard bag and threw it out.

Police recovered the decomposing remains in a cardboard box a week later after getting anonymous tips.

"I don't care what your politics are, what your morals are, this should not be happening in our community," said Tom Pennekamp, a Miami attorney representing Williams in her lawsuit against Renelique (ren-uh-LEEK') and the clinic owners.

The state Board of Medicine is to hear Renelique's case in Tampa on Friday and determine whether to strip his license. The state attorney's homicide division is investigating, though no charges have been filed. Terry Chavez, a spokeswoman with the Miami-Dade County State Attorney's Office, said this week that prosecutors were nearing a decision....

SHOCK: Baby Born Alive at Abortion Clinic -- then Killed... (http://www.buffalonews.com/260/story/570428.html)

LAWSUIT FILED... (http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2009/jan/09013009.html)

it makes you wonder... how many abortions are done after the set date and then doctors like this just change the date on the paperwork so they can get paid.

Steve
7th February 09, 01:41 AM
Wait, I don't understand. Wouldn't the doctor have just done the exact same thing just minus the labor part? I'm being serious.

Now if you are saying Williams changed her mind after a live baby was born, that is another story.

Aphid Jones
7th February 09, 01:45 AM
First: Horrible.

Second: This will be used by anti-abortion protesters for the next two billion years.

fes_fsa
7th February 09, 01:45 AM
i think that minus the labor part, they suck the fetus out with a vacuum so it doesn't become "personal", just another medical procedure.

the fact that the baby was actually born and alive sparks a whole new debate on what constitutes a person and how far doctors can take these abortion procedures (at the expense of medical jurisprudence?).

HappyOldGuy
7th February 09, 01:57 AM
the fact that the baby was actually born and alive sparks a whole new debate on what constitutes a person and how far doctors can take these abortion procedures (at the expense of medical jurisprudence?).
There isn't much room for debate on this one. 24 weeks isn't even legal most places unless the mothers life is in danger.

However I support abortion through the 54th post natal trimester.

WarPhalange
7th February 09, 03:19 AM
I support ULTRANATAL abortions.

Craigypooh
7th February 09, 04:35 AM
Why is the doctor being sued? Seems a bit harsh to sue the doctor for something someone else did when he wasn't in the room. Is he being sued for poor time keeping?

fes_fsa
7th February 09, 05:43 AM
There isn't much room for debate on this one. 24 weeks isn't even legal most places unless the mothers life is in danger.

However I support abortion through the 54th post natal trimester.

but the point is that it is legal in some and this is an example of a clinic taking advantage of that for profit.

these guys are murderers. the girl entered this world naturally and alive and at that point, they should've called paramedics instead of chucking her into a bag.

fes_fsa
7th February 09, 05:44 AM
Why is the doctor being sued? Seems a bit harsh to sue the doctor for something someone else did when he wasn't in the room. Is he being sued for poor time keeping?

he's the on duty physician, he has to bear some responsibility for the medical goings on. at least malpractice or gross negligence.

Cullion
7th February 09, 05:46 AM
The woman who throw the baby away in a biohazard bag comitted murder, case closed.

MEGA JESUS-SAMA
7th February 09, 05:51 AM
That baby was about three months and some change premature. Was it even alive when it came out? Shit.

Cullion
7th February 09, 06:00 AM
3 months premature babies survive all the time. At 23 weeks old it's fully formed, it's heart is beating and it kicks.

fes_fsa
7th February 09, 06:06 AM
The woman who throw the baby away in a biohazard bag comitted murder, case closed.

from the 2nd link in the OP


Anonymous callers notified police at least three times about the live birth and murder, and when police executed a search warrant on July 22, 2006, they found medical records but couldnít locate the babyís remains. Six days later, another anonymous caller told police the babyís body had been hidden on the roof. Police responded but didnít find the babyís body on the roof. After another anonymous tip police got another search warrant and found the decomposing baby in a cardboard box in a closet at the clinic. DNA linked the babyís remains to Williams.


this was covered up by the staff. from the doctor who didn't put anything about it in the medical records, to the nurses and pharmacy technicians who went into that closet, saw the dead baby in a box and went about their business.

whoever did it or knew about it and let it happen needs to go to prison.

fes_fsa
7th February 09, 06:08 AM
That baby was about three months and some change premature. Was it even alive when it came out? Shit.

the autopsy revealed that there was air in the baby's lungs. that means it was alive and breathing.

sochin101
7th February 09, 08:58 AM
Yeah. That's murder.
Shit, it wasn't even humanely done.
An act of unthinking, callous barbarism.

Kiko
7th February 09, 09:06 AM
Very very wrong.

Question.... If you know you don't want to have the baby, why do you wait 23 weeks?

Cullion
7th February 09, 09:20 AM
She might not have known she was pregnant for some of that time, and then dithered about the decision making. I don't believe abortions that late term are right.

Steve
7th February 09, 09:24 AM
Stupidity.

Truculent Sheep
7th February 09, 09:36 AM
She might not have known she was pregnant for some of that time, and then dithered about the decision making. I don't believe abortions that late term are right.

The lack of proper counselling for women in these situations is a scandal in itself.

Kiko
7th February 09, 09:37 AM
I'd go with Steve. That's what, around 5 months? How unaware can women be that they don't know by, oh, I dunno, missing a few periods, gaining weight all over, etc?

I just don't buy that contraception is that hard to obtain or use that it's easier to just go get dilated and vacuumed out. Irresponsibility annoys me.

Cullion
7th February 09, 09:42 AM
We wouldn't have to have so many of these difficult conversations if teenage girls were taught to take it in the pooper.

Steve
7th February 09, 09:51 AM
Yes, and we wouldn't have teh islams all over us if we just weren't westerns.

sochin101
7th February 09, 09:57 AM
Very very wrong.

Question.... If you know you don't want to have the baby, why do you wait 23 weeks?
Probably as leverage over t3h dad... if she knew who he was.
Then, it doesn't work out...

sochin101
7th February 09, 09:58 AM
^ I sound judgemental.
I am.
I doubt the moral fibre and intelligence of the 'mother'.

sochin101
7th February 09, 10:00 AM
http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/02/06/florida.abortion/


MIAMI, Florida (CNN) -- A doctor's license was revoked Friday in the case of a teenager who planned to have an abortion but instead gave birth to a baby she says was killed when clinic staffers put it into a plastic bag and threw it in the trash.

Cullion
7th February 09, 10:04 AM
Yes, and we wouldn't have teh islams all over us if we just weren't westerns.

I don't see the connection. Are you suggesting anal is a defence against terrorism?

HappyOldGuy
7th February 09, 11:56 AM
but the point is that it is legal in some and this is an example of a clinic taking advantage of that for profit.

these guys are murderers. the girl entered this world naturally and alive and at that point, they should've called paramedics instead of chucking her into a bag.

I don't think it actually is legal anywhere in the US. It definetely isn't in Florida. Even if the procedure had gone off flawlessly, the doctor would still have been breaking the law.

fes_fsa
7th February 09, 02:43 PM
I don't think it actually is legal anywhere in the US. It definetely isn't in Florida. Even if the procedure had gone off flawlessly, the doctor would still have been breaking the law.

are we debating this? or just chatting about it? i agree with you... so i don't know anymore...

anyway, i don't really care WHERE this happened... but THAT it happened. this could've happened in a state where partial births are legal. it doesn't change the fact that it was murder.

Cullion
7th February 09, 02:47 PM
Shall we widen this out into the abortion thread ?

I think 'social' abortions should be limited to the first trimester, at the most.

fes_fsa
7th February 09, 02:47 PM
I'd go with Steve. That's what, around 5 months? How unaware can women be that they don't know by, oh, I dunno, missing a few periods, gaining weight all over, etc?

I just don't buy that contraception is that hard to obtain or use that it's easier to just go get dilated and vacuumed out. Irresponsibility annoys me.

maybe she's just irregular. or maybe she was on that pill that makes it so you only have your period a couple times a year. lots of people get pregnant even when using contraceptives.

more than likely, though, you're right in that she was probably just plain old irresponsible.

fes_fsa
7th February 09, 02:53 PM
^ I sound judgemental.
I am.
I doubt the moral fibre and intelligence of the 'mother'.

her name was Sycloria.

i can't help but think that her name is an amalgamate of 3 or 4 different venereal diseases.

Wounded Ronin
7th February 09, 02:53 PM
I guess timing is everything. A few minutes make it murder or not murder.

Cullion
7th February 09, 02:55 PM
That's why I don't think late 2nd or 3rd trimester abortions are right if the reason is social/financial.

I think at that point you've got to acknowledge you're taking a human life, and I can only condone it to directly save another life.

At that point, if the problem is 'she's not ready to raise a child', I think the answer is adoption.

Obviously, I'd prefer family planning to be managed by contraception or early stage intervention like the morning after pill. I don't see a dividing ball of cells as a human life, but a formed baby that has a heartbeat and can kick and react to speech and music is IMHO.

Robot Jesus
7th February 09, 02:56 PM
I'd go with Steve. That's what, around 5 months? How unaware can women be that they don't know by, oh, I dunno, missing a few periods, gaining weight all over, etc?

I just don't buy that contraception is that hard to obtain or use that it's easier to just go get dilated and vacuumed out. Irresponsibility annoys me.
It happens sometimes with athletes, their bodyweight is so low they donít menstruate regularly. I read about one case where a girl collapsed min championship basketball game and gave birth without knowing she was pregnant; she figured it out afterwards.

fes_fsa
7th February 09, 02:59 PM
Shall we widen this out into the abortion thread ?

I think 'social' abortions should be limited to the first trimester, at the most.

i am pro-choice and i take a very californian-conservative approach to this.

if you want an abortion, look up the laws in your state and act accordingly.

i don't agree that it should be funded by tax payers' money. the majority of abortions performed are done for convenience... and as a californian, i believe you should pay for your conveniences out of your own pocket.

WarPhalange
7th February 09, 03:00 PM
Shall we widen this out into the abortion thread ?

I think 'social' abortions should be limited to the first trimester, at the most.

Why am I imagining something like this:

qtGcjhEj3fY

But with abortions instead? I don't know why your post made me think of that, Cullion.

WarPhalange
7th February 09, 03:01 PM
i don't agree that it should be funded by tax payers' money. the majority of abortions performed are done for convenience... and as a californian, i believe you should pay for your conveniences out of your own pocket.

Having a kid you don't want doesn't count as an "inconvenience", though.

Cullion
7th February 09, 03:02 PM
i am pro-choice

Public policy doesn't have to be polarised like picking a sports team to support. I suppose that's the natural upshot of the American two party system though.



if you want an abortion, look up the laws in your state and act accordingly.

Yeah, but what abortion laws would you draught for where you live, were it within your power?

Cullion
7th February 09, 03:04 PM
Having a kid you don't want doesn't count as an "inconvenience", though.

No, it doesn't. Having to go through the emotional trauma of giving it up for adoption rather than just killing it does though, when we're talking about a human life as opposed to a ball of cells. That's why this isn't a 'yes or no' debate. This is about when the foetus becomes a living human.

I'm not religious, but obviously as the adopted child of a teenage mother I have an iron in this fire.

fes_fsa
7th February 09, 03:05 PM
Having a kid you don't want doesn't count as an "inconvenience", though.
having a kid you don't want is just irresponsible, cruel idiocy.

it's inconvenient that people don't get a fast track pass and have to deal with traffic instead of getting around it.

it's inconvenient that people have to cook their own meals instead of going to a restaurant to eat.

close your legs, or pony up the money to have it aborted.

Robot Jesus
7th February 09, 03:06 PM
I think one should be paid to have an abortion; or at least to be steralized.

Cullion
7th February 09, 03:15 PM
close your legs, or pony up the money to have it aborted.

Are you saying that murder is OK as long as you don't expect other people to pay for it ?

fes_fsa
7th February 09, 03:16 PM
Yeah, but what abortion laws would you draught for where you live, were it within your power?

i like most of the laws as they are... but i would change a few.

i don't agree with partial birth abortions.

i don't believe in funding ANY abortion.

the rest is none of my business.

fes_fsa
7th February 09, 03:16 PM
Are you saying that murder is OK as long as you don't expect other people to pay for it ?
are you calling abortion murder?

Cullion
7th February 09, 03:21 PM
I think it depends on how late in the pregnancy. Like I said before, the idea that it's either 'abortion' or 'no abortion' is a false dichotomy that plays neatly to making democracy into a foolish PR game of picking one of 2 sports teams to support.

In my opinion a foetus is alive when it has it's own heartbeat, and can respond to human speach and music. Killing it is therefore murder unless it's done to save the mother's life, in which case it's a sad, difficult self-defence decision.

You've carried and given birth to children. Once they started kicking, did you think of them as living beings ?

fes_fsa
7th February 09, 03:35 PM
I think it depends on how late in the pregnancy. Like I said before, the idea that it's either 'abortion' or 'no abortion' is a false dichotomy that plays neatly to making democracy into a foolish PR game of picking one of 2 sports teams to support.

In my opinion a foetus is alive when it has it's own heartbeat, and can respond to human speach and music. Killing it is therefore murder unless it's done to save the mother's life, in which case it's a sad, difficult self-defence decision.

thank goodness we don't go by your opinion when deciding abortion laws, cullion.

it would become impossible to set a deadline on when abortions can be performed.

Cullion
7th February 09, 03:44 PM
thank goodness we don't go by your opinion when deciding abortion laws, cullion.

it would become impossible to set a deadline on when abortions can be performed.

I'm happy to set a deadline. First trimester unless the mother's life can only be saved by performing the abortion. What would your deadline be?

Presumably you have one. Otherwise what happened in the original post becomes 'not murder' just because the baby was ripped apart by vacuum suction before anybody had to look it in the eyes.

fes_fsa
7th February 09, 03:45 PM
Why am I imagining something like this:

qtGcjhEj3fY

But with abortions instead? I don't know why your post made me think of that, Cullion.

apparently, i have to spread it around before giving it to you again, Poops.

it's a damned shame.

after that... i want you to impregnate me.

so i can abort it.

fes_fsa
7th February 09, 04:06 PM
you said

In my opinion a foetus is alive when it has it's own heartbeat
it's alive upon fertilization.


and can respond to human speach and music.
the average baby does this at 16 weeks. AFTER the first trimester.


I'm happy to set a deadline. First trimester unless the mother's life can only be saved by performing the abortion.

only 5 percent of abortions are done for health/psychological reasons, 1 percent of them being victims of rape or incest. the rest is done for convenience with a good percentage (i don't remember how much), done after the first trimester.


What would your deadline be?
before 20 weeks is fine with me. a baby cannot survive outside the walls of its mom's uterus before then.


Presumably you have one. Otherwise what happened in the original post becomes 'not murder' just because the baby was ripped apart by vacuum suction before anybody had to look it in the eyes.
they didn't vacuum the baby out in the OP. the woman went in for a partial birth abortion but gave birth to a baby. it was alive. it was legally a person now. if that clinic had done everything in its power to keep it alive and it died, they'd be off the hook. but they chucked it into a bag and left it to die. they are murderers.

Zendetta
7th February 09, 04:09 PM
Shall we widen this out into the abortion thread ?

I think 'social' abortions should be limited to the first trimester, at the most.

That's culturally insensitive. Many Americans, especially ghetto/trailerpark dwellers, are too fat to know they are pregnant at that point.

*****
Back in high school (in religious, socially conservative South Carolina), I jammed a classmate up pretty good. She was delivering an impassioned speech about how abortion was legal. I asked her who should get the death penalty: the doctor of the mother?

Cullion
7th February 09, 04:12 PM
it's alive upon fertilization.

I don't believe it's a conscious human upon fertilization though.



the average baby does this at 16 weeks. AFTER the first trimester.

Maybe there's a case for upping it by a week or two past the first trimester then. But now this is a real debate about 'when is it murder' rather than 'yes or no'. Good.



only 5 percent of abortions are done for health/psychological reasons, 1 percent of them being victims of rape or incest. the rest is done for convenience with a good percentage (i don't remember how much), done after the first trimester.

I think this is wrong.



before 20 weeks is fine with me. a baby cannot survive outside the walls of its mom's uterus before then.

Alright, we have a 20 week deadline from you, fine.



they didn't vacuum the baby out in the OP. the woman went in for a partial birth abortion but gave birth to a baby. it was alive. it was legally a person now. if that clinic had done everything in its power to keep it alive and it died, they'd be off the hook. but they chucked it into a bag and left it to die. they are murderers.

You missed my point. My point was that they were murderers for what they did, but that I would also consider them murderers for any method of abortion used at 23 weeks unless they were doing it to save the mother's life. Regardless of whether what they did was legal or not. Because sometimes the current law for a situation needs changing.

The current law on this isn't really relevant to me, because I'm debating should rather than what is.

sochin101
7th February 09, 04:15 PM
You know, for 'convenience' abortions, I'd make the 'mother' sit through 1 hour of lectures on contraception for every week they're pregnant before they can book the procedure.
14 weeks in? Welcome to 14 hours of "penis goes here, but use a condom".

Also, 15 weeks is ample time to try and work out who the father is and whether or not to keep the baby, that would be my preferred cut-off point (excluding medical issues).

fes_fsa
7th February 09, 04:16 PM
i'm gonna grab lunch. i'll reply to you guys when i get back.

Cullion
7th February 09, 04:22 PM
You know, for 'convenience' abortions, I'd make the 'mother' sit through 1 hour of lectures on contraception for every week they're pregnant before they can book the procedure.
14 weeks in? Welcome to 14 hours of "penis goes here, but use a condom".

Also, 15 weeks is ample time to try and work out who the father is and whether or not to keep the baby, that would be my preferred cut-off point (excluding medical issues).

I think you have a laudible aim, but the practical problem would be with women (especially teenagers) who hadn't realised they were pregnant until too late.

There was a girl in my year at school who didn't realise she was pregnant until after 20 weeks when she was 14 years old. She simply didn't gain that much weight.

I'm happy to say the father was a very decent guy who stuck by her, she had the baby, and they're still a happy family today, 20 years on.

sochin101
7th February 09, 04:33 PM
I think you have a laudible aim, but the practical problem would be with women (especially teenagers) who hadn't realised they were pregnant until too late. I guess there are always going to be exceptions.

I'm not against abortion, I just loathe the consequence-free attitude that seems to be prevalent, especially among young British women.


There was a girl in my year at school who didn't realise she was pregnant until after 20 weeks when she was 14 years old. She simply didn't gain that much weight.I've heard this sort of thing before and I'm astonished that there are no other signs... missed periods, morning sickness. But, I'm a dude, so... you know...
Do you think it was lack of education, lack of family support, or just no symptoms what-so-ever?

Cullion
7th February 09, 05:52 PM
She had missed periods, but there are lots of other reasons why a girl might miss a period. She actually went to a doctor and asked if she was pregnant and he said no. She didn't have it confirmed she was pregant until a month later when she finally got a second opinion.

It was a mixture of a lack of symptoms (can happen quite commonly) and a doctor screwing up.

Her family and the teenage father acted in an exemplary fashion the whole way through. He married her in his teens, went to university to do his best to make something of himself and as far as I know he's still married to her.

fes_fsa
7th February 09, 06:01 PM
I don't believe it's a conscious human upon fertilization though.
it's still a human and it's still living, although as a parasite.




Maybe there's a case for upping it by a week or two past the first trimester then. But now this is a real debate about 'when is it murder' rather than 'yes or no'. Good.
define murder.


I think this is wrong.
why? do you have anything to offer that would suggest how i'm wrong and by how much?


Alright, we have a 20 week deadline from you, fine.
i said it was alright with me. it's the law and it's something i can live with.


The current law on this isn't really relevant to me, because I'm debating should rather than what is.
well if we're talking about ideals, then that's a whole different story.

if you really wanna know what i think...

i think abortion is wrong. it is murder. it is done for convenience the majority of the time... and placing HUMAN LIFE under the catergory of convenience devalues it immensely.

they have taken the humanity out of killing. they don't call babies "babies"--they call them "fetuses". instead of suction, evacuation, and extraction, they call it d&c, d&c, and d&x--just simple medical procedures, no killing done there, right? they don't even let women see the ultrasounds when they're going in for an abortion (if they saw that little heart beating on the screen, you can bet your ass those women would think twice about getting it done).

we don't learn anything from abortions--just that if you get knocked up and can't deal with a baby right now, you can suck it out of your vagina. there's no responsibility. no change in behavior after going through this ordeal. people who get these done either lack moral sense or guilt or they are emotionally immature and self centered.

WE HAVE CREATED A SOCIETY OF FEMALE SOCIOPATHS.

if it was up to me, abortions at any stage of gestation. but, the way i view euthanasia and suicide.

you do it yourself, you pay for it yourself.

medical supplies are available to buy or rent.

Cullion
7th February 09, 06:08 PM
it's still a human and it's still living, although as a parasite.

Well, I think it's alive, but I don't think it's human at that early a stage. At the earliest stages, it's more like a rapidly breeding colony of microbes.



define murder.

Wilful and foreplanned taking of a human life that's not necessary to protect another human life, IMHO.

Cullion
7th February 09, 06:13 PM
i said it was alright with me. it's the law and it's something i can live with.

I don't think we're arguing on this point. I just wanted to coax a line in the sand out of you so I could see where you stand.



well if we're talking about ideals, then that's a whole different story.

if you really wanna know what i think...

i think abortion is wrong. it is murder. it is done for convenience the majority of the time... and placing HUMAN LIFE under the catergory of convenience devalues it immensely.

they have taken the humanity out of killing. they don't call babies "babies"--they call them "fetuses". instead of suction, evacuation, and extraction, they call it d&c, d&c, and d&x--just simple medical procedures, no killing done there, right? they don't even let women see the ultrasounds when they're going in for an abortion (if they saw that little heart beating on the screen, you can bet your ass those women would think twice about getting it done).

we don't learn anything from abortions--just that if you get knocked up and can't deal with a baby right now, you can suck it out of your vagina. there's no responsibility. no change in behavior after going through this ordeal. people who get these done either lack moral sense or guilt or they are emotionally immature and self centered.

WE HAVE CREATED A SOCIETY OF FEMALE SOCIOPATHS.

if it was up to me, abortions at any stage of gestation. but, the way i view euthanasia and suicide.

you do it yourself, you pay for it yourself.

medical supplies are available to buy or rent.

I'm glad the real fes came out to play.

My views are simillar to yours, not by religion so much as by spending my whole life since finding out what 'abortion' was being aware that I narrowly escaped it myself.

I have a gentler view to a degree, because I don't consider a woman who takes the morning-after pill to flush a cell colony from her womb to be doing the same thing as a woman who kills a 20 week old baby because she decides at the last minute that being a single mother will cramp her style.

I also won't go as far with my libertarian principles as saying 'fuck it, just pay for it yourself'. Freedom isn't just about money and personal choices. It sometimes means that you have to defend the freedom of people who can't do it themselves. Human beings have a right not to be murdered. I'll use my vote to defend what I consider to be living humans from being murdered.

But otherwise.. yeah.

fes_fsa
7th February 09, 06:28 PM
Well, I think it's alive, but I don't think it's human at that early a stage. At the earliest stages, it's more like a rapidly breeding colony of microbes.

what's your definition of human?

and does their being a blob of cells make them anything less than a human life?


Wilful and foreplanned taking of a human life that's not necessary to protect another human life, IMHO.

human life is so loosely defined that it could be considered murder upon fertilization or according to laws applying to persons born ONLY AFTER the baby is born.

Wounded Ronin
7th February 09, 06:35 PM
I'm not religious, but obviously as the adopted child of a teenage mother I have an iron in this fire.

That explains a lot. Classical economics were your daddy. :biggrin:

fes_fsa
7th February 09, 06:52 PM
I don't think we're arguing on this point. I just wanted to coax a line in the sand out of you so I could see where you stand.

don't get me wrong. these are only my ideals. i have no desire to argue them, but only state them to those who really want to know what i think.

it would be nice to talk about how i'd do this... but i'm an old hag now and i know that i can't change the world. besides that, i've had enough of spouting my ideologies to strangers on the internet, only to have them spout back and tell me how stupid and wrong i am for having the views that i do. now... i can only work with the laws that are given to me.

the reality is that the laws of the country i live in only protect persons born. so abortion is legal. murder isn't. and abortion =/= murder.


My views are simillar to yours, not by religion so much as by spending my whole life since finding out what 'abortion' was being aware that I narrowly escaped it myself.

i didn't think i brought my religious beliefs (or lack thereof) into this conversation... and whoa whoa whoa? are you saying you were almost aborted, cullion?


I have a gentler view to a degree, because I don't consider a woman who takes the morning-after pill to flush a cell colony from her womb to be doing the same thing as a woman who kills a 20 week old baby because she decides at the last minute that being a single mother will cramp her style.

this is what i used to get flamed for the most in these abortion discussions. an abortion is a termination of a pregnancy. for a fertilized egg to even survive in a uterus, a pregnancy has to occur in the first place. this requires that it attaches to the uterine lining. RU487 makes it so that the egg can't attach. no attachment, no pregnancy, no abortion. i don't see it as any different than taking birth control pills or using spermicidal lubricant.


I also won't go as far with my libertarian principles as saying 'fuck it, just pay for it yourself'. Freedom isn't just about money and personal choices. It sometimes means that you have to defend the freedom of people who can't do it themselves. Human beings have a right not to be murdered. I'll use my vote to defend what I consider to be living humans from being murdered.

But otherwise.. yeah.

freedom is personal choice without infringing upon the rights of others.

you don't have any rights as the unborn.

Cullion
7th February 09, 07:01 PM
My definition of a human life is not easily verbally expressed. I believe we all have an inner compass of sensation that if we listen to it, reveals the truth.

I see an image of rapidly dividing embryonic cells, and I don't feel I'm looking at conscious human being. Looking at ultrasound of a 20 week old baby, then I think I'm looking at a small defenceless human.

Surely the bedrock of all our beliefs is the direct experience of inner sensation ?

P.S. yeah there was a thread about adoption where I chipped in with my experience. I was born to a 14 year old irish catholic girl in a convent that her parents sent her to when they found out. I'm not religious, but when it comes to 'social abortion', I'm very forthright about saying 'are you sure? is this necessary?'

fes_fsa
7th February 09, 07:11 PM
My definition of a human life is not easily verbally expressed. I believe we all have an inner compass of sensation that if we listen to it, reveals the truth.

I see an image of rapidly dividing embryonic cells, and I don't feel I'm looking at conscious human being. Looking at ultrasound of a 20 week old baby, then I think I'm looking at a small defenceless human.

Surely the bedrock of all our beliefs is the direct experience of inner sensation ?

P.S. yeah there was a thread about adoption where I chipped in with my experience. I was born to a 14 year old irish catholic girl in a convent.

oh jesus christ, cullion.

really? a feeling?

we might as well be on BS debating the merits of chi.

Cullion
7th February 09, 07:24 PM
Don't pretend you work on pure logic. No human does. You're not a machine.

You gave up your true nature just for a moment/post a go. Go with it.

Decisions about public policy without feelings? Bullshit.

Genocide is wrong? why? Because when you watch it happen on video you feel sick inside. Your inner nature as a human tells you it's cruel and wrong. It's not wrong just because you were told it's wrong.

Don't pretend your ideals don't matter just because they've met so much resistance. That's weak.

fes_fsa
7th February 09, 08:00 PM
Don't pretend you work on pure logic. No human does. You're not a machine.

You gave up your true nature just for a moment/post a go. Go with it.

Decisions about public policy without feelings? Bullshit.
we are talking about ethics in regards to medical procedure.

yeah... feelings, personal values and morals go into it, but not that much.

not when we're trying to define something that is very real and tangible--what is a human being when it comes to deciding laws.

science and laws are alot more important in this regard.


Genocide is wrong? why? Because when you watch it happen on video you feel sick inside. Your inner nature as a human tells you it's cruel and wrong. It's not wrong just because you were told it's wrong.
genocide is wrong because it is THEFT of peoples' lives on a grand scale. it has NOTHING to do with how i feel. theft is theft and murder is a form of theft.


Don't pretend your ideals don't matter just because they've met so much resistance. That's weak.
it is my personal choice to never have one done and to attempt to talk those who i know personally who are contemplating getting one done to seek alternate methods.

i don't know if it's apathy that fuels my pro-choice stance... but if people choose to get abortions then that is their business. not mine. it does not affect me.

if Roe v Wade was overturned in the US and the laws were turned over to the states, nothing would change for me. the laws would remain the same, the unborn would still have no rights.

Zendetta
7th February 09, 08:30 PM
genocide is wrong because it is THEFT of peoples' lives on a grand scale. it has NOTHING to do with how i feel. theft is theft and murder is a form of theft.

I don't think that's true. Its wrong because you know its wrong. The rest is rationalization (which is fine), but it comes after the fact.

fes_fsa
7th February 09, 08:42 PM
I don't think that's true. Its wrong because you know its wrong. The rest is rationalization (which is fine), but it comes after the fact.

i don't think so. there are people who KNOW genocide is wrong and then not even bat an eyelash at using white phosphorus on a neighboring country's civillians.

knowing based on a feeling is not enough. there has to be a set guideline to follow.

Zendetta
7th February 09, 08:57 PM
ah, I see. You arn't presenting your feelings, you are hypothesizing on sound policy.

Still sounds like you are putting cart before horse.

fes_fsa
7th February 09, 09:10 PM
why? because i'm not putting my bleeding heart into policy making?

if it was just ME, cullion and i can agree wholeheartedly on this whole abortion debacle and be done with it.

but this applies to women and the choices they make for their own bodies. as well as parents and the choices that they make for their children or potential children. i have my opinions and i don't form opinions for other people.

abortion is legal, those who perform them or have them done within the boundaries of the law are not murderers in the eyes of the law. there is no getting around this, no matter how far into term a woman is. abortion has been around since FOREVER.

Zendetta
7th February 09, 09:20 PM
i have my opinions and i don't form opinions for other people.

ooooh yeah, baby that's hot... tell me more, oh yeah.

fes_fsa
7th February 09, 09:21 PM
yeah.... i'm gonna opinionate all over your chest.

*hurls feminist obscenities at zendetta*.

Zendetta
7th February 09, 09:29 PM
*hurls feminist obscenities at zendetta*.

My God(dess), you read me like a book! I *really* got to try what you just described. That could go all kinds of crazy ways.

Are you a twin/does anyone know any libertarian nymphomaniacs in norcal?

fes_fsa
7th February 09, 09:49 PM
I *really* got to try what you just described. That could go all kinds of crazy ways.

rawr... yes it could.... (http://www.efukt.com/2213_Youporn.html)

Cullion
8th February 09, 04:32 AM
we are talking about ethics in regards to medical procedure.

yeah... feelings, personal values and morals go into it, but not that much.

not when we're trying to define something that is very real and tangible--what is a human being when it comes to deciding laws.

science and laws are alot more important in this regard.

Science and law are simply tools. They're meaningless if undirected by feeling.
There's an example coming up:-



genocide is wrong because it is THEFT of peoples' lives on a grand scale. it has NOTHING to do with how i feel. theft is theft and murder is a form of theft.

You didn't explain anything there. Genocide is wrong because it's THEFT?
What does that mean? Why is theft wrong?



if Roe v Wade was overturned in the US and the laws were turned over to the states, nothing would change for me. the laws would remain the same, the unborn would still have no rights.

You get a vote in your state too.

fes_fsa
8th February 09, 11:23 AM
Science and law are simply tools. They're meaningless if undirected by feeling.
There's an example coming up:-

You didn't explain anything there. Genocide is wrong because it's THEFT?
What does that mean? Why is theft wrong?

you said

Genocide is wrong? why? Because when you watch it happen on video you feel sick inside. Your inner nature as a human tells you it's cruel and wrong. It's not wrong just because you were told it's wrong.

not everybody thinks genocide is wrong. taking the lives of people is considered the norm in some countries. theft is something we can all agree is wrong... and yeah i see your point.

i disagree with you. it's wrong because you're TOLD it's wrong.

you're pushed from a young age to think the way you do. your sense of right and wrong is shaped by your societal environment. you think something wrong because because everybody else thinks it's wrong and to think and act otherwise would mean that you'll be punished by the law under the law that everbody chooses to uphold.

to actively express your ideals verbally and physically is not only selfish, but if it's contrary to what everyone else thinks, you're batshit insane. if you assemble a group of people who share your beliefs, you're labeled as a radical group or cult.


You get a vote in your state too.

sure, feelings DO have their part in deciding law... but i don't vote on laws based on how i feel. i vote based on what's best for everybody else--how THEY feel.

if i FEEL differently from everybody else, it doesn't matter. i'll get outvoted and i'll have to work with the laws that THEY choose.

Wounded Ronin
8th February 09, 01:27 PM
rawr... yes it could.... (http://www.efukt.com/2213_Youporn.html)

Good thing I wasn't at work when I clicked on that.

Quikfeet509
8th February 09, 03:30 PM
24 weeker was born outside of a hospital with a NICU? Not a chance.

Even if they called the paramedics and the baby was directly transported to a NICU that specializes in such preterm babies, the chances would have been incredibly slim of survival. Plus, if the baby did happen to survive, it would more than likely have some severe, life-long deficits (and cost a fortune).

So I guess life is the most important factor if someone else gets to suffer through raising and paying for that crippled baby.

Cullion
8th February 09, 03:55 PM
i disagree with you. it's wrong because you're TOLD it's wrong.

you're pushed from a young age to think the way you do. your sense of right and wrong is shaped by your societal environment. you think something wrong because because everybody else thinks it's wrong and to think and act otherwise would mean that you'll be punished by the law under the law that everbody chooses to uphold.

to actively express your ideals verbally and physically is not only selfish, but if it's contrary to what everyone else thinks, you're batshit insane. if you assemble a group of people who share your beliefs, you're labeled as a radical group or cult.

Hang on a minute.. I'm not advocating pro-life murders of clinic staff here, I'm talking about using a vote in the law-making process.



sure, feelings DO have their part in deciding law... but i don't vote on laws based on how i feel. i vote based on what's best for everybody else--how THEY feel.

Do you do that because you care about how they feel? Do you see my point now ?

Wounded Ronin
8th February 09, 03:58 PM
Even if they called the paramedics and the baby was directly transported to a NICU that specializes in such preterm babies, the chances would have been incredibly slim of survival. Plus, if the baby did happen to survive, it would more than likely have some severe, life-long deficits (and cost a fortune).

So I guess life is the most important factor if someone else gets to suffer through raising and paying for that crippled baby.

Yeah, sometimes here in the US I feel like the medical bill is worse than the disease.

fes_fsa
8th February 09, 05:50 PM
24 weeker was born outside of a hospital with a NICU? Not a chance.

Even if they called the paramedics and the baby was directly transported to a NICU that specializes in such preterm babies, the chances would have been incredibly slim of survival. Plus, if the baby did happen to survive, it would more than likely have some severe, life-long deficits (and cost a fortune).

i don't doubt that it probably wouldn't have survived. even if it was futile, calling the paramedics and at least TRYING to keep the baby alive would've gotten them off the hook. being born doomed does not give this clinic the right to do what they did.


So I guess life is the most important factor if someone else gets to suffer through raising and paying for that crippled baby.

if it survived, it probably would've just gone to DSS to be raised in a group home until it was fostered or adopted out to another family. i don't see a problem with this. nobody is suffering through raising an unwanted child.

fes_fsa
8th February 09, 05:55 PM
Hang on a minute.. I'm not advocating pro-life murders of clinic staff here, I'm talking about using a vote in the law-making process.

no.

you're pestering me because i prefer to use logic instead of feelings when it comes to deciding on what laws to vote on.


Do you do that because you care about how they feel? Do you see my point now ?

are you telling me to vote however i want to?

because i already do.

Cullion
8th February 09, 06:20 PM
no.

you're pestering me because i prefer to use logic instead of feelings when it comes to deciding on what laws to vote on.

I'm pointing out that all logic is underpinned by feelings.



are you telling me to vote however i want to?


No, I'm pointing out that you made a self-nullifying argument by saying that you couldn't see the point in voting against something you didn't believe was right because other people wouldn't vote the same way as you.

I don't really care, I don't live in California.

fes_fsa
8th February 09, 06:49 PM
No, I'm pointing out that you made a self-nullifying argument by saying that you couldn't see the point in voting against something you didn't believe was right because other people wouldn't vote the same way as you.

I don't really care, I don't live in California.
i DON'T see the point.

why were we even talking about this???

Cullion
8th February 09, 06:53 PM
Because this is sociocide. You brought it up.

fes_fsa
8th February 09, 07:03 PM
you deliberately coaxed me into doing it.

Cullion
8th February 09, 07:09 PM
I'm glad I did. Now I know who the other batshit insane raised-catholic libertarian who thinks society is disintegrating around them is.

Quikfeet509
8th February 09, 07:43 PM
i don't doubt that it probably wouldn't have survived. even if it was futile, calling the paramedics and at least TRYING to keep the baby alive would've gotten them off the hook. being born doomed does not give this clinic the right to do what they did.


Which might be symptomatic of yet another issue: the requirement of medical personal to "go through the motions" regardless of the chances and cost.


Or not. Logic tends to breakdown whenever any baby / infant / child is involved, or at least it does with me. Rationally I couldn't see the point of even calling EMS but if I was actually there...who knows.




if it survived, it probably would've just gone to DSS to be raised in a group home until it was fostered or adopted out to another family. i don't see a problem with this. nobody is suffering through raising an unwanted child.

I seriously doubt the baby, if it survived, would ever make it past the institutional setting. Even if it did, the parents would have a very difficult time raising the child


We would probably be looking at several millions of dollars in the first decade of life.



Here's an article that a quick google search brought up:

http://www.parenting.com/article/Pregnancy/Health/Special-Delivery-The-Perils-of-Premature-Birth

fes_fsa
8th February 09, 08:05 PM
Which might be symptomatic of yet another issue: the requirement of medical personal to "go through the motions" regardless of the chances and cost.

Or not. Logic tends to breakdown whenever any baby / infant / child is involved, or at least it does with me. Rationally I couldn't see the point of even calling EMS but if I was actually there...who knows.

most medical clinics are funded by the DHHS and CMS. they are subject to EMTALA and can't NOT go through the motions. it doesn't matter if it's a doomed child or a doomed adult. logically rationalizing to form personal opinions doesn't matter--it's the current law.


I seriously doubt the baby, if it survived, would ever make it past the institutional setting. Even if it did, the parents would have a very difficult time raising the child


We would probably be looking at several millions of dollars in the first decade of life.



Here's an article that a quick google search brought up:

http://www.parenting.com/article/Pregnancy/Health/Special-Delivery-The-Perils-of-Premature-Birth

yeah. but here's the thing--if the baby makes it past the state's system, the parents CHOSE to adopt it. it's difficult, costly, emotionally painful for the parents and physically painful for the child.... but the parents elect to have this burden of responsibility placed upon them.

Wounded Ronin
8th February 09, 09:48 PM
My mom always told me that if a baby seems to want to self-abort you must let it do so, or else be tragically stuck with a deeply flawed child for the rest of your life.

fes_fsa
8th February 09, 10:05 PM
yeah. but there's a difference between opting to refuse medical treatment and having a clinic make the decision for you by placing your baby in a bag to die.

WarPhalange
9th February 09, 02:20 AM
My mom always told me that if a baby seems to want to self-abort you must let it do so, or else be tragically stuck with a deeply flawed child for the rest of your life.

I don't know, my parents seem fine with it.

Quikfeet509
9th February 09, 07:13 AM
My mom always told me that if a baby seems to want to self-abort you must let it do so, or else be tragically stuck with a deeply flawed child for the rest of your life.


A 24 weeker has little choice - it will die without significant intervention.

Quikfeet509
9th February 09, 07:22 AM
most medical clinics are funded by the DHHS and CMS. they are subject to EMTALA and can't NOT go through the motions. it doesn't matter if it's a doomed child or a doomed adult. logically rationalizing to form personal opinions doesn't matter--it's the current law.

I'm going to have to go ahead and say that EMTALA blows chunks. Sure, it is great in theory, but the application has been horrendous.


"The emergency department: your Primary Care physician since 1986."


While I think using legalism to define what is ethical also blows serious chunks, I am professionally bound to follow it.


Oh, and EMS / Emergency department go through the motions all the time, usually so they can tell the family of the deceased that "we did all that we could do" instead attempting to tell the cold hard reality of the situation - "your uncle was dead in the field 20 minutes before he even hit the hospital".

Unfortunately, it is all about making the laypeople / consumers satisfied...kinda like this story - "THEY COULD HAVE SAVED THAT BABY!"




yeah. but here's the thing--if the baby makes it past the state's system, the parents CHOSE to adopt it. it's difficult, costly, emotionally painful for the parents and physically painful for the child.... but the parents elect to have this burden of responsibility placed upon them.

The parents aren't going to shoulder this expense alone - either the taxpayers will through medicaid, the hospital / physician's groups will through "write-off care", and those with insurance will through higher premiums (you know the insurance companies are not going to affect their bottom line).

It's a no-win situation that wastes money on the little baby that could have been spent on scores of other people.

mrblackmagic
9th February 09, 11:21 AM
Postnatal Abortions? Is that just old-fashion murder?

TM
9th February 09, 11:35 AM
Forced abortion is a heinous crime.
I used to be anti-abortion until I became Buddist.
Now I believe abortion is the mothers right and should also be retroactive at any age.
ie. "Johnnny you've been fucking up again! Bring mommy her nine."

HappyOldGuy
9th February 09, 12:17 PM
Postnatal Abortions? Is that just old-fashion murder?

Not if it's legal.

fes_fsa
9th February 09, 01:24 PM
I'm going to have to go ahead and say that EMTALA blows chunks. Sure, it is great in theory, but the application has been horrendous.


"The emergency department: your Primary Care physician since 1986."


While I think using legalism to define what is ethical also blows serious chunks, I am professionally bound to follow it.
on that, you and i can agree.

i can see a need for EMTALA, but it's in need of great reform. it's a logistical and economical nightmare, that's for sure. unfunded mandates don't work. this (and to name another abortion of a policy, No Child Left Behind) proves it.

legally, a hospital can turn away a patient once they've been evaluated by a physician. but EMTALA has made the repercussions so harsh that hospitals treat anyone and everyone. MOST hospitals aren't equipped, nor funded, enough to handle that burden... resulting in poor quality care.

in my state alone, something along the lines of 70 EDs have closed in the past decade. you can bet your ass that the lack of reimbursed care is the root of the problem. then how many more patients will die because they couldn't get to an ED on time? it's moronic policy and why i'm completely against socialized healthcare.


Unfortunately, it is all about making the laypeople / consumers satisfied...kinda like this story - "THEY COULD HAVE SAVED THAT BABY!"
i don't think they could've saved this baby. however, they're required to try to keep it alive until the mother opts to have it euthanized.

they did not have the patient's okay. this was not just unethical practice... it was morally bankrupt.


The parents aren't going to shoulder this expense alone - either the taxpayers will through medicaid, the hospital / physician's groups will through "write-off care", and those with insurance will through higher premiums (you know the insurance companies are not going to affect their bottom line).

It's a no-win situation that wastes money on the little baby that could have been spent on scores of other people.

crippled children are usually eligible for medicaid, whether they're adopted or not...

and insurance premiums increase the second kids enter the picture, whether they're crippled or not.

Wounded Ronin
9th February 09, 07:40 PM
"The emergency department: your Primary Care physician since 1986."


This man has just won the thread. This is like a shoryuken to the nuts.

Wounded Ronin
9th February 09, 07:42 PM
I don't know, my parents seem fine with it.

I think my mom was referencing an autistic cousin of mine, and some other kid of a friend of hers where they stopped it from self aborting and then that kid had some kind of problem later.

Well, I don't like the idea of kids in the first place, so I guess the abstract concept of a kid who also has special needs, and who won't score a 1510 on the SAT, seems even more negative to me.

WarPhalange
10th February 09, 12:36 AM
You are stuck with a kid who wanted to die before it was even born. What do you think your lives will be like?