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Virus
4th February 09, 07:41 AM
Thanks a lot Islam. Thanks a lot. When I first heard about how Europe was bending over to appease Islam I thought it was paranoid scaremongering. But it turns out to be true. Why? I don't know. Maybe we have become so enamored with the notion of "respecting faith" that we will respect it even if it has no respect for us. Maybe we are just plain scared of being blown up.

Geert Wilders is a conservative Dutch politician who made a short film, Fitna, which transposes verses of the Koran with graphic footage of the sort of violence Muslims are committing. He is being tried by Dutch courts for "Hate Speech" for stating that Islam is a violent religion and that the Koran incites violence. He said that Muslims "have to give up this stupid, fascist book" (the Koran.)

The thing is, it's not hate speech because it's completely true.

So to all the Muslims out there, don't worry, you don't have to riot, burn flags and threaten people when they criticize your daft religion. We will silence them for you. You've gotten what you want, although I'm sure it won't be enough. If it isn't bad enough that he has to live under armed guard due to numerous death threats.

In England the House of Lords decided to show this film, that is, until a Muslim member threatened to "raise an army of 10,000 Muslims" if they did, and they quickly backed down. We wouldn't want to upset their precious feelings would we? I'm no fan of anachronistic pompous gits like the House of Lords, but I'm even less of a fan of bully-boy religious dickheads that think the world owes them respect for their irrational, stupid ideas.

Please sign the online petition in defense of Geert:
http://www.petitiononline.com/wilders/petition.html

Now, In protest I will be showing the film here:

WARNING: Graphic, disturbing footage. Sign in may be required.

37w-aXGk8M0

I'm also going to post a video by the awesome t3h Pat Condell who is one of the few people speaking plainly on Islam that isn't blinkered by the thoroughly hypocritical and idiotic dogma of "respecting people's faith".

EJKRF2uB8xU

If any Muslims are reading this and had their feelings hurt, then you can google some sad violin music because I care so much about your feelings. If people talking about Islam hurts your feeling so much then the solution is simple, stop being Muslim. It's not hard. I have no problem at all not being Muslim. It's awesome.

jubei33
4th February 09, 09:13 AM
your video no workie

The URL contained a malformed video ID.

WarPhalange
4th February 09, 01:54 PM
I read this as "Gene Wilder". I am suddenly not so interested.

I have an idea, though. Let's compile all of the gangster rap lyrics we can find, transpose that along side scenes of gang warfare and the victims of psychopathic murders and then say all black people are like that and idealize it, okay?

Virus
4th February 09, 03:21 PM
Black people are born black, they don't choose it as a set of beliefs.

Aphid Jones
4th February 09, 03:24 PM
Black people are born black, they don't choose it as a set of beliefs.
What's your point?

Yiktin Voxbane
4th February 09, 06:15 PM
What's your point?

My point is the sharp thing atop of my head .....

Virus
4th February 09, 06:18 PM
What's your point?

I have a few points;


Islam is not a race.

Even if someone did make a video saying that blacks are violent, does that give black people the right to make death threats and should people be sent to prison for saying it.

My third point is that he's basically right.

Finally, Poop's analogy is invalid because black people are not expected to believe that rap lyrics are messages from god.

Tanhalen21
4th February 09, 09:10 PM
Finally, Poop's analogy is invalid because black people are not expected to believe that rap lyrics are messages from god.
http://blog.stuffblackpeoplelove.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/blackjesus.jpg

Black Jesus begs to differ.

And will bust a CAP in yo ass

Aphid Jones
4th February 09, 09:51 PM
Virus, you probably like shallow, shitty milled-out books like the Ender's Game series, right?

Remember how in Speaker for the Dead, all those pig creatures wanted to fill their treaty full of threats and shit just because it was part of their culture? Same thing. The whole "jews are pigs" thing is just posturing, how desert folk get their diplomacy on'. For every threat, how many are acted upon? One in a hundred thousand.

:)

WHY ARE YOU SO FUCKING INTOLERANT.

DICK

Matt Stone
4th February 09, 10:51 PM
It's despicable to think that it is now illegal to "insult" an opinion, a belief, something that doesn't actually exist, and even more despicable that someone could be prosecuted for doing so.

"I like orange butterflies. They're the awesomest!"

"I hate orange butterflies! They are inferior to the purple butterflies!"

"My belief that orange butterflies are the best is insulted! Die pig-dog! You must be punished!"

*insert weak-ass laws passed by easily intimidated pussy government to placate the violent, unstable purple butterfly likers at the expense of the dissenting orange butterfly likers' right to like what color butterfly they choose and to freely express their opinions no matter what others may think*

It's nonsense, no matter what. Slippery slope, welcome to the Netherlands... What freedom is next to go?

Phrost
5th February 09, 12:03 AM
I signed it. Tolerance for its own sake is idiotic.

We should never tolerate that which threatens liberty and the free exchange of ideas.

HappyOldGuy
5th February 09, 12:46 AM
Geert is a douche. But the way you deal with douches is to let them have their say in public and then point at them and laugh. You don't try to shut them up. It just gives them a mystique.

WarPhalange
5th February 09, 12:55 AM
I have a few points;

Islam is not a race.Good for them? I don't see what this has to do with anything.




Even if someone did make a video saying that blacks are violent, does that give black people the right to make death threats and should people be sent to prison for saying it.Call a man a thief, and he will steal.




My third point is that he's basically right.
That all Muslims share the views of the fanatics or that they are somehow secretly enabling fanatics by having a different set of beliefs? Or what? Does the average Muslim freak out when you say his religion is shit any more than an average Christian does?


Finally, Poop's analogy is invalid because black people are not expected to believe that rap lyrics are messages from god.


It's called an analogy for a reason, dumbass. If it was exactly the same then it would be pointless.

You cherry pick examples and use them to make a statement about the whole. That's just stupid. We all hate the KKK here right? So why not hate all Christians? Is that a better comparison for you?

Arhetton
5th February 09, 01:14 AM
Isn't the Koran full of hate speech against non-muslims?

Irony.

WarPhalange
5th February 09, 01:21 AM
All of the Judeo-Christian holy books have hate speech against all outsiders. That's how you get a cult. You need an us vs. them mentality.

Virus
5th February 09, 04:35 AM
[/LIST]Call a man a thief, and he will steal.


Are you seriously suggesting that Muslim violence only happens because we call Muslims violent?



Does the average Muslim freak out when you say his religion is shit any more than an average Christian does?


Just think about that for a second Poop. Nobody has been murdered for criticizing Christianity in recent history. Christians didn't hijack a plane and kill 2000 people with it. How many people live in fear of their lives for criticizing Christianity? How many books have been pulled off the shelf for fear of Christian violence? What happens what newspapers print cartoons lampooning Christianity? What do you think would happen if Monty Python did a movie called "The Life of Muhammed?"

Let me ask you this Poop. Say you were in Indonesia, would you rather give a speech criticizing Buddhism at a temple or would you rather give a speech criticizing Islam at a mosque?



You cherry pick examples and use them to make a statement about the whole. That's just stupid. We all hate the KKK here right? So why not hate all Christians? Is that a better comparison for you?

See above. And I don't hate all Muslims so you can stop suggesting that I do.

Virus
5th February 09, 07:16 AM
With the exception of Phrost, it seems that we're losing sight of the original topic. A politician from a liberal democratic country is being tried by a secular liberal democracy for criticizing Islam. Is this what people want? Criticism of Islam is now "Hate Speech". The UN is proposing blasphemy laws, at the behest of Saudi Arabia of all places. Sharia Law courts in Brittan. What next? We need to step back and re-asses ideas about "all cultures are equal" (which is bollocks in my opinion) we need to re-asses "respect for faith" (also bollocks in my opinion).

Edit: I understand that in America you have a barrier in the form of your own brand of Christian fundamentalism. I suspect that the decline of religion in Europe is being replaced not by healthy skepticism but a false "respect" that Dawkins and Harris warned about where it is taboo to criticize faith, and it doesn't help that people who criticize certain faiths (ie Islam) actually do get threatened with violence.

Sun Wukong
5th February 09, 07:24 AM
Of course it's ridiculous. Geert may be a xenophobic tool, but it's his right to be one.

Cullion
5th February 09, 07:35 AM
The point about Sharia law courts in the UK is often misunderstood. They are only used when both parties consent. Sharia law cannot be applied to a muslim or non-muslim who refuses to recognise the court's authority.

But yes, the idea that somebody can be prosecuted for an opinion is absurd.
The 'call a man a thief' point is also absurd. Think about what you said for a minute poop-loops.

'You're a dumb, lazy, thieving pollack'.

Feel like turning over a liquor store yet?

How many times do I need to say it before you'll maybe start shoplifting a little?

What about if everybody else on sociocide joins in?

Still don't have itchy fingers for a gold watch or a few cans of beer?

Hmm.. maybe this theory needs rethinking.

It's an absurd construct of sociologists who are attempting to reverse the causal relationship between observed behaviour and stereotype for political reasons. I would've thought you were too smart to fall for that PL.

Kein Haar
5th February 09, 07:44 AM
What makes the European moozlums such fucking retards?

Both casually and professionally, I've had just about zero problems with any of them here in the USA. Really, I have to struggle to remember a single incident...at all. Ever.

Is it the greater effort involved in crossing the sea? The less resourceful ones perish on their make-shift rafts?

Actually, I have the feeling it's the following:

#1. I'm guessing the expectation of USAism involves work. Relatively streamlined entreprenuerial processes we have here. That's the idea. If they decide to come here in particular, they've already made up their minds that they'll get busy with something. Less of a welfare state than Yrup.

#2. Even if they did decide to fuck-off and live a ghetto lifestyle on the dime of the dept. of human services, someone else beat them to it...and they really don't want to share quarters with them. Scared straight basically.

I'm guessing they are far less idle to think of stupid shit to bitch about.

Truculent Sheep
5th February 09, 08:15 AM
In England the House of Lords decided to show this film, that is, until a Muslim member threatened to "raise an army of 10,000 Muslims" if they did, and they quickly backed down.

That would be Baron Ahmed of Rotherham, one of those self-appointed 'Community Leaders' that most UK muslims haven't actually heard of. A 7/7 terrorist apologist on the side, too.

He's also pleaded guilty to Dangerous Driving, after killing someone on a motorway while Ahmed was texting and driving his car at the same time. Charming man - hopefully he'll go to prison and, if certain reforms are enacted on time, he'll be stripped of his peerage.

Cullion
5th February 09, 08:24 AM
What makes the European moozlums such fucking retards?

Both casually and professionally, I've had just about zero problems with any of them here in the USA. Really, I have to struggle to remember a single incident...at all. Ever.

Is it the greater effort involved in crossing the sea? The less resourceful ones perish on their make-shift rafts?

Actually, I have the feeling it's the following:

#1. I'm guessing the expectation of USAism involves work. Relatively streamlined entreprenuerial processes we have here. That's the idea. If they decide to come here in particular, they've already made up their minds that they'll get busy with something. Less of a welfare state than Yrup.

#2. Even if they did decide to fuck-off and live a ghetto lifestyle on the dime of the dept. of human services, someone else beat them to it...and they really don't want to share quarters with them. Scared straight basically.

I'm guessing they are far less idle to think of stupid shit to bitch about.

Yeah, I think it's probably to do with stricter immigration procedures and a less generous welfare state in the US. In the UK we allow people to live on generous welfare who are known to have been involved in armed insurrection back in the middle east and soon after arrival publicly preach the violent overthrow of the UK govt.

Virus
5th February 09, 08:25 AM
What makes the European moozlums such fucking retards?

Both casually and professionally, I've had just about zero problems with any of them here in the USA. Really, I have to struggle to remember a single incident...at all. Ever.



Apart from 9/11?

It's a good question. I think it's because America has it's own fundamentalism that serves as a bullwark against the intrusion of a competing dogma.

I don't think the Muslims that are causing trouble in Europe are poor boat people either. Studies show that the educated and professional Muslims are more likely to sympathize with Islamism. One problem is integration. Rather than integrating with the host society, enclaves are cropping up. This serves to re-enforce traditional Islamic values rather than dilute them with Western ones. It has also been suggested by Ayaan Hirsi Ali that European countries are not making it clear enough that citizenship in a liberal democracy entails both rights and obligations. You have the right to free speech, but you have the obligation to respect that right in others.

This isn't to say that all Muslims are frothing-at-the-mouth fundies waiting to get into the West to start wrecking it. Islam has a large pro-western segment, but also harbors a subculture of fundamentalism. Like how there are real scary fundy dudes in America but Islamic fundies are even worse.

It's very interesting how fundamentalism in America is predominantly popular amongst the poor and working class but in Islam it's the exact opposite. I think might be because Islam is not just a religion, but a complete set of codes for everything. It's a political system, it prescribes it's own laws and system of governance. Political ideas are much more strongly embraced by the educated and middle classes.

Phrost
5th February 09, 11:06 AM
With the exception of Phrost, it seems that we're losing sight of the original topic. A politician from a liberal democratic country is being tried by a secular liberal democracy for criticizing Islam. Is this what people want? Criticism of Islam is now "Hate Speech". The UN is proposing blasphemy laws, at the behest of Saudi Arabia of all places. Sharia Law courts in Brittan. What next? We need to step back and re-asses ideas about "all cultures are equal" (which is bollocks in my opinion) we need to re-asses "respect for faith" (also bollocks in my opinion.
What's <s>hilarious</s> tragic is that a country run by "liberals" is opposed to the free exchange of ideas and puts people on trial for expressing them.

War is peace, freedom is slavery.

Cullion
5th February 09, 11:19 AM
We need a better name for people who believe in this nonsense than 'Liberals'. To be liberal means 'to allow'. This isn't what they're about at all.

Some suggestions:-

1) Commies

2) Fags

3) Thoughtpolice

Zendetta
5th February 09, 11:44 AM
'You're a dumb, lazy, thieving pollack'.

Feel like turning over a liquor store yet?

too lazy to steal

HappyOldGuy
5th February 09, 12:08 PM
We need a better name for people who believe in this nonsense than 'Liberals'. To be liberal means 'to allow'. This isn't what they're about at all.

Some suggestions:-

1) Commies

2) Fags

3) Thoughtpolice

Jackbooted thugs in less awesome uniforms.

Cullion
5th February 09, 12:35 PM
The word we're looking for is Comissar

http://img48.imageshack.us/img48/1232/76rm.jpg

WarPhalange
5th February 09, 12:44 PM
I read this as "Gene Wilder" again and thought this was a spoof thread. God damn.

Kiko
5th February 09, 12:52 PM
The word we're looking for is Comissar

http://img48.imageshack.us/img48/1232/76rm.jpg

AKA http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Guvo7gUdUnE

Phrost
5th February 09, 12:56 PM
We need a better name for people who believe in this nonsense than 'Liberals'. To be liberal means 'to allow'. This isn't what they're about at all.

Some suggestions:-

1) Commies

2) Fags

3) Thoughtpolice

There's always:

"Cultural Statist" or Nannystatist <-my preference.

WarPhalange
5th February 09, 12:57 PM
Are you seriously suggesting that Muslim violence only happens because we call Muslims violent?
If a Polish guy kills a bunch of people and you say all Poles are violent assholes, I will kick your ass for it. We didn't have any real problems with Muslims before 9/11 and then the Iraq war. Are you telling me we just had our eyes closed the whole time and these protests and all these suicide bombs and "Islam or Die" protests were going on the whole time in our backyards and we just didn't notice?



Just think about that for a second Poop. Nobody has been murdered for criticizing Christianity in recent history. Christians didn't hijack a plane and kill 2000 people with it. How many people live in fear of their lives for criticizing Christianity? How many books have been pulled off the shelf for fear of Christian violence? What happens what newspapers print cartoons lampooning Christianity? What do you think would happen if Monty Python did a movie called "The Life of Muhammed?"
Northern Ireland? Oh right, it was Christianity criticizing itself, so that doesn't count, right? And this actually goes back to my argument of "shitty country". People who have running water and the ability to put food on their family don't have a reason join a guy that is planning the hijacking of planes to kill thousands of people. People who are fanatics like that are just batshit insane. Yes, they still exist here and everywhere, but the people joining Al Qaeda and fighting us in Iraq aren't fanatics for the most part. They have other reasons for fighting us, i.e. having a shitty country and they percieve us as doing this to them.

Christianity was started some 500 years before Islam. What did Christianity look like 500 years ago?

I'm not afraid of my friendly neighborhood Ahmed coming and killing me for criticizing Islam. I don't expect him to react any more violently than when I insult Christianity in front of some southern Baptist.


Let me ask you this Poop. Say you were in Indonesia, would you rather give a speech criticizing Buddhism at a temple or would you rather give a speech criticizing Islam at a mosque?
So you agree that this is a matter of country and not religion, then? Since you named Indonesia specifically, you say it wouldn't be a big deal if it happened in the US or Europe somewhere? Canada? No, you decided to go to the heartland of Buttfuck and threaten the people in power by threatening the national religion.


See above. And I don't hate all Muslims so you can stop suggesting that I do.
You want to. You're trying to desperately find a reason to just be able to shit on all of them. It would make things so much easier than having to look at people individually.

Cullion
5th February 09, 01:12 PM
I was too young and disinterested in current affairs to notice any real problems with Muslims before 9/11 and then the Iraq war.

Fixed that for you.

http://fube.ca/images/posts/rushdie.jpg

Zendetta
5th February 09, 01:15 PM
Are you telling me we just had our eyes closed the whole time and these protests and all these suicide bombs and "Islam or Die" protests were going on the whole time in our backyards and we just didn't notice?

Are you fucking kidding me?

You do know that 9/11 was the second time muslem fanatics attacked the WTC, right? Right?

They DO have those protests in Europe, dude. As to "noticing": your eyes are still closed.

Now I'll be the first to say that our leaders have often inflamed islamophobia for political reasons. That doesn't change the fact that many fundamentalist muslems are violent barbarians.

More to the point, and not just targetting PL: I think that a broad swath of western society is too jaded and ignorant to appreciate, let alone defend, the core values of western culture.

Cullion
5th February 09, 01:15 PM
Northern Ireland? Oh right, it was Christianity criticizing itself

No. It was about people with a high unemployment rate who wanted to be part of the Republic of Ireland fighting with people with a marginally lower unemployment rate who wanted to be British subjects with the British Army sort of in the middle but leaning towards the section of the populace who wanted to stay British.

WarPhalange
5th February 09, 02:35 PM
You do know that 9/11 was the second time muslem fanatics attacked the WTC, right? Right?
I don't understand. Are you trying to tell me I'm wrong, or that I'm right because you said it was Muslim fanatics and not your average Abdul the Plumber doing it? Because that was kind of my point. Did you see a huge part of Muslims supporting the WTC bombings or so many tensions between Muslims and non-Muslims over it?


They DO have those protests in Europe, dude. As to "noticing": your eyes are still closed.
I asked if they *did* have them before this. I know that they do. What the fuck is wrong with you?


Now I'll be the first to say that our leaders have often inflamed islamophobia for political reasons. That doesn't change the fact that many fundamentalist muslems are violent barbarians.
Yes, good for you, you can finally distinguish between "average Muslim" and "fundamentalist/fanatic". Do you see Christian fundamentalists in our backyard? The only reason they don't go out and actually slaughter homosexuals is because our country is good enough to prevent them from doing that. In a shitty country ala Iraq or Afghanistan you can bet your ass you'd see homosexuals hung like Christmas ornaments all along its "Bible Belt".


More to the point, and not just targetting PL: I think that a broad swath of western society is too jaded and ignorant to appreciate, let alone defend, the core values of western culture.
No, you're right. ALL Muslims are fucking dogs that need to be gutted and left to die.

-or-

No, I'm only saying it's a minority of Muslims who believe this shit and it's not a general attitude among believers. If 5% of Muslims are fanatics, that translates into a huge number when you have over a billion followers.

Which one of those attacks core values of western culture? Because I never even brought that up as an issue. I never even said this Gene Wilder impersonater should be charged with any crime. I'm just asserting that his idea is stupid.

Cullion
5th February 09, 02:41 PM
Admit it poop-loops, you're only sticking up for muslims here because you don't like jews.

HappyOldGuy
5th February 09, 02:42 PM
No. It was about people with a high unemployment rate who wanted to be part of the Republic of Ireland fighting with people with a marginally lower unemployment rate who wanted to be British subjects with the British Army sort of in the middle but leaning towards the section of the populace who wanted to stay British.

You know I agree, and you also know that you can do the exact same economics uber alles claims for everything in the middle east.

WarPhalange
5th February 09, 02:45 PM
Admit it poop-loops, you're only sticking up for muslims here because you don't like jews.

Pfft, who does?

Besides. Half of my friends are Jewish. Literally.

SFGOON
5th February 09, 02:48 PM
Muslims are pretty chill. If you don't agree, you need to head to your local learning annex so you can take a class on cultural sensitivity.

Don't want to go? Fine. After you're charged with a hate infraction, the judge will order you to go.

Still refuse?! Why must you be so difficult? Okay, you've just earned yourself 30 days in prison, where you MUST, I repeat MUST attend cultural sensitivity classes!

You still refuse to change your views? Fine!! We'll put you in a camp and re-educate you until you LEARN!!! And if you don't figure it out there, you'll wind up in an unmarked grave!!!

WarPhalange
5th February 09, 02:50 PM
Muslims are pretty chill. If you don't agree, you need to head to your local learning annex so you can take a class on cultural sensitivity.

Don't want to go? Fine. After you're charged with a hate infraction, the judge will order you to go.

Still refuse?! Why must you be so difficult? Okay, you've just earned yourself 30 days in prison, where you MUST, I repeat MUST attend cultural sensitivity classes!

You still refuse to change your views? Fine!! We'll put you in a camp and re-educate you until you LEARN!!! And if you don't figure it out there, you'll wind up in an unmarked grave!!!

Fuck that. These people need to be beheaded and/or slain. That's what the signs say, at least.

Cullion
5th February 09, 02:57 PM
You know I agree, and you also know that you can do the exact same economics uber alles claims for everything in the middle east.

Not quite. Northern Irish protestants and catholics can't point to scriptures telling them to kill each other identified by name.

The Qu'ran does contain some lines that identify Judaism and are perjorative about it. It gives it a different tone.

Virus
5th February 09, 03:53 PM
Poop can you please knock it off with the absurd strawmen about "Zomg virus wants to put all moslims in meet grinders and sell the product to jewish dogfood factorees!" I've stated many times that it's a subculture within Islam that is reacting against a largely pro-west sector of Muslims.

It's also not true that Islam was never a problem before 9/11. Fatwa against Salman Rushide, WTC bombing, bombing of US embassy in Africa, bombing of US ship. Before that they've been busy slaughtering their fellow Muslims in the Middle East. Al-quaeda always had the plan of exporting Jihad to the West they just needed to get strong enough before they did it.

As for your statement that the Iraqi insurgents are just poor, dispossessed people that want running water and three meals a day? Who do you think keeps blowing up the water plants? Who is suicide bombing the Red Cross? Who killed the UN envoy who was there to organize cheap housing for homeless Iraqis? Who is suicide bombing the funerals of rival Muslim sects? Who is kidnapping and beheading the Journalists? How does any of this combat poverty? These things make poverty worse. And who suffers? The Muslims that really do just want water and food. Who is shooting schoolgirls on the way to school and blowing up schools in Afghanistan because they believe Islam forbids women to be educated?

The people who just want democracy, women's rights, water, food, schools and union rights are not on the side of the Islamic dickshafts that are carrying out sectarian and ethnic cleansing in Iraq. They want nothing more then to see these nutcases fuck off. You insult them by suggesting that they are represented by the Islamic fascists, who are in actual fact their worst enemy and far bigger threat to them than the US millitary occupation.

HappyOldGuy
5th February 09, 04:05 PM
The people who just want democracy, women's rights, water, food, schools and union rights are not on the side of the Islamic dickshafts that are carrying out sectarian and ethnic cleansing in Iraq. They want nothing more then to see these nutcases fuck off. You insult them by suggesting that they are represented by the Islamic fascists, who are in actual fact their worst enemy and far bigger threat to them than the US millitary occupation.

However many of them are Muslims, which is the part where you and geert are spouting excrement.

Zendetta
5th February 09, 04:37 PM
I don't understand.

No shit.


Are you trying to tell me I'm wrong, or that I'm right because you said it was Muslim fanatics and not your average Abdul the Plumber doing it? Because that was kind of my point.

Don't even try to weasel out of that one. You said we didn't have any "real problems" with muslems before 9/11. Google S. Rushdie and STFU.


I asked if they *did* have them before this. I know that they do. What the fuck is wrong with you?

See above. The developed world is welcoming rather large numbers of people who do not respect your freedom of speech or religion, and you think there's something wrong with me?

(well, there's plenty wrong with me, but I'm not going to behead you for insulting my beliefs)


Yes, good for you, you can finally distinguish between "average Muslim" and "fundamentalist/fanatic".

Finally? Fuck off. I've known several cool muslims and a couple of awesome ones.

Best friends of the family were living in Pakistan before your parents were bumping uglies.


Do you see Christian fundamentalists in our backyard? The only reason they don't go out and actually slaughter homosexuals is because our country is good enough to prevent them from doing that.

Yes I do. Tim McVeigh vs Oklahoma City.


In a shitty country ala Iraq or Afghanistan you can bet your ass you'd see homosexuals hung like Christmas ornaments all along its "Bible Belt".

Gee, Poops. Do you think that "shittiness" could, just maybe, have anything to do with the fact that they have a tendency towards theocracitic government? Particularly when certain precepts of said religion encourage you to make snuff films starring non-believers?

Major LOLZ at your "good country" vs "shitty country" theory. Some seriously violent rhetoric from muslims in europe. Do you think Europe is "shitty" too?

Wait, don't answer that.


No, you're right. ALL Muslims are fucking dogs that need to be gutted and left to die.

BEHEAD THE STRAW MAN ARGUEMENT THAT INSULTS ALLAH!!!!!


No, I'm only saying it's a minority of Muslims who believe this shit and it's not a general attitude among believers. If 5% of Muslims are fanatics, that translates into a huge number when you have over a billion followers.

Well, if that's all you are saying then you can shut up now. Because that's a moot point that most of us already agree with.

It IS a widespread enough attitude that europe appears to be knuckling under to it. If it was only one-in-godzillion muslims, then this wouldn't even be on the radar.


Which one of those attacks core values of western culture? Because I never even brought that up as an issue. I never even said this Gene Wilder impersonater should be charged with any crime.

You should be (figuratively) up in arms that western freedoms (like freedom of speech) are being eroded by the appeasement of violent fanatics - of ANY religion.


I'm just asserting that his idea is stupid.

So refute it already.

Cullion
5th February 09, 04:45 PM
Poop loops, I have a question for you.

When you see European governments bow to demands against freedom of speech like this, do you think it's because they think :-

a) 'We think some groups of the population have a right not to be offended.. except Christians', despite the fact that the majority of members of those same governments were at least raised as moderately Christian (if not the hardcore fundamentalist variant you find in the US).

'It's because we think muslims are exotic and cool, and being faggy european liberals we sort of hate our own traditions and get turned on when we see people violently oppose them. It hasn't occurred to any of us that these peoples' biggest beef isn't with Christianity, but with western politically correct atheistic liberalism and zionist Judaism.'

b) 'We kind of support the idea of free speech, we certainly don't mind people making fun of Jesus, Christianity or making nun-porn, but holy fuck, these Muslims need to be placated or there will be riots, and they make up a _big_ part of the population in some of our port and industrial cities. Yeah we know they aren't all like that we're faggy European liberals after all, but mother of God it looks like there are enough of the hardcore ones to cause real trouble'.

?

Actually, it can be some of either, but I lean towards B because the governing elites of Europe do some pretty fucking stupid things, but they tend to be at least as well educated as a good-quality US college graduate and they know which side their own bread is buttered.

Cullion
5th February 09, 05:01 PM
Poop-loops, I strongly recommend you visit Paris, and, during the daylight hours, try and do a quick tour of one of the modern cheap housing projects at the periphery.

You'll notice that each 'suburb' (where the poor muslim North Africans generally live) is basically a careful piece of urban planning where each group of high-rise homes can be quickly 'quarantined' from the rest of Paris by turning off the electricity to a single train line and blockading one or two highways (usually with high concrete walls either side) with an armoured car or two.

It's not an accident they're designed like that. That's how afraid the elites of Europe really are. In the UK, we're a lot less 'gated community' about it, and we basically try to placate them by throwing money at them.

Do you understand how few generations some European countries are to having muslims be the majority of the population ?

Some have less time than Israel.

Cullion
5th February 09, 05:09 PM
For Chrissakes PL, you're a pole and proud of it. Google 'gates of vienna' for chrissakes.

Cullion
5th February 09, 05:11 PM
or 'barbary pirates'.

WarPhalange
6th February 09, 01:56 AM
Poop can you please knock it off with the absurd strawmen about "Zomg virus wants to put all moslims in meet grinders and sell the product to jewish dogfood factorees!" I've stated many times that it's a subculture within Islam that is reacting against a largely pro-west sector of Muslims.

He is being tried by Dutch courts for "Hate Speech" for stating that Islam is a violent religion and that the Koran incites violence. He said that Muslims "have to give up this stupid, fascist book" (the Koran.)

The thing is, it's not hate speech because it's completely true.

How do fail?

Virus
6th February 09, 07:29 AM
No it's not fail, I think you're confusing two different statements.

The religion of Islam, as described by its foundational texts, its history and by the words of its authorities, is a violent, intolerant, misogynist and imperialistic creed. But that doesn't mean that all Muslims follow the entire Koran to the letter. Some of them do take it as absolute and literal and they are the ones that are dangerous.

I hope that clarifies the issue.

HappyOldGuy
6th February 09, 10:15 AM
No it's not fail, I think you're confusing two different statements.

The religion of Islam, as described by its foundational texts, its history and by the words of its authorities, is a violent, intolerant, misogynist and imperialistic creed. But that doesn't mean that all Muslims follow the entire Koran to the letter. Some of them do take it as absolute and literal and they are the ones that are dangerous.

I hope that clarifies the issue.

Just out of curiousity...

Have you read it?

Virus
6th February 09, 10:22 AM
Just out of curiousity...

Have you read it?

No just bits of it.

Shawarma
6th February 09, 12:10 PM
Something has to be pointed out.

What Wilders continues to spew is, without a doubt, hate speech, likening the qur'an to Mein Kampf and whatnot. He's a titanic racist, disliking sandniggers on general principles or because of vague concepts of "European Culture" and other faggotry like it. You can, of course, debate whether laws against hate speech should exist, which is entirely fair, but Wilders and others like him are undoubtedly guilty of it, no matter how they attempt to thinly veil it.

There are problems with immigration and ghettofication in most of western Europe, that's not even open to debate. But decrying all immigrants as rapists, thieves and ungodly niggers is both unfair, unproductive and disgustingly populistic, pandering to bigots.

The problem with most European immigration politics is that the parties are generelly either of the "JIHAD ON SANDNIGGERS" bigot variety or simply wimpy about speaking out in favour stricter regulation of immigrants over fears of being branded bigots.

I miss Pim Fortuyn. He hated Muslims, but I totally couldn't argue with his point. His main point was that people from the middle east, not just Muslims, generally hate homos. Why should he, Pim, as a card-carrying homo, be the slightest bit acceptive or tolerant of people who hated him for what he is?

Pim Fortuyn, only non-bigoted bigot in western European politics.

Shawarma
6th February 09, 12:13 PM
No just bits of it.
I bet you did. You and ten million other fags on the internet browsing Prophetofdoom.com for quotes to use in your fake little culture war.

I actually read that entire piece of shit. I disagree with your assessment of it. I found it very misanthropic rather than openly jingoistic.

HappyOldGuy
6th February 09, 12:21 PM
I haven't read the whole thing, but I had to read significant chunks when I was in school (in translation of course). My main take was that the narrative suffered from being closer to historical than the bible is. The bible is the "cleaner" narrative for being less cluttered with real events.

Zendetta
6th February 09, 02:00 PM
I miss Pim Fortuyn. He hated Muslims, but I totally couldn't argue with his point. His main point was that people from the middle east, not just Muslims, generally hate homos. Why should he, Pim, as a card-carrying homo, be the slightest bit acceptive or tolerant of people who hated him for what he is?

MEGAFAIL. You are simultaneously accusing "Islamaphobes" of failing to realize that not ALL immigrants are Jihadis, and then praising Fortuyn for assuming ALL of them are homophobes. Does not compute.

This only makes sense if you think ass-fucking is somehow more of an essential right that freedom of speech. You could make the exact same arguement for Jews, women, etc etc etc.

And that culture war isn't fake, no matter how much cherry-picking Virus might do - or was Fortuyn NOT killed for talking smack about Muslems?

Cullion
6th February 09, 02:02 PM
Fortuyn was killed by a white, atheist member of the Dutch green movement, not a muslim.

Shawarma
6th February 09, 02:05 PM
He was killed for being "dangerously right wing", which includes racism, among other things. By a mentally ill animal rights hippie, not by a Muslim. You can't actually use his death in the culture war, unless you want to start a new one against hippies.

And I praise Fortuyn mainly because his personal bigotry mirrors my own. Really, I don't think I've ever met an A-rab or middle easterner of any kind who didn't at least feel "eew!" about fudgepackery. It's some macho thing or something, I believe.

Cullion
6th February 09, 02:11 PM
The 72 virgins mentioned in that Hadith?

The Hadith in question also mentioned 28 pre-pubescent boys for pleasure too. I've read that homosexuality (in the form of ancient greek-style man-boy pederasty) is practiced amongst Afghans (some of whom are supposedly descended from Alexander's troops and have fairer skin and eyes).

Shawarma
6th February 09, 02:16 PM
According to what I've read, it's apparently OK for a Pushtun to have sex with men and boys but not to act like an effeminate fag. Roman ideal of "It's OK for as long as you're the pitcher."

Cullion
6th February 09, 02:23 PM
Yes. Hellenistic 'master-pupil' pederasty. No skipping around being effeminate. 'Women for children and a boy for pleasure' manly, manly butch faggotry.

HappyOldGuy
6th February 09, 02:24 PM
You've gotta assume a high level of such activity any time you make it that difficult to get to the pussy.

Cullion
6th February 09, 02:27 PM
Not really. I don't think it's harder for them than western men. They marry young and I'd guess women probably outnumber men because the men kept getting killed by The British Empire/Russians/NATO.

I think they just, uh, really like Buttsex.

EuropIan
6th February 09, 02:35 PM
I think they just, uh, really like Buttsex.
So they're comparable to Catholics in this regard?

Cullion
6th February 09, 02:42 PM
Catholics really aren't that prone to it. The priesthood is a tiny proportion of the catholic population.

Zendetta
6th February 09, 02:58 PM
Fortuyn was killed by a white, atheist member of the Dutch green movement, not a muslim.

I'm aware of that. But the murderer specifically cited Fortuyn's anti-islamic sentiment as a prime motivator.

In other words, Shawarma's "Fake Culture War" is real enough for Fortuyn's attitude towards immigrants to cause one of his own countrymen to kill him.


You can't actually use his death in the culture war, unless you want to start a new one against hippies.

Capitol Idea!


It's some macho thing or something, I believe.

I think they feel that you arn't gay if you are pitching. THe idea of Afghani "dancing boys" is pretty indicative.

edit: you guys beat me to it. I should have know you'd all have the 411 on the buttsex!

Zendetta
6th February 09, 05:06 PM
Speaking of Freedom of Speech and Islam: a couple of Afghani dudes thought it would be neat to translate Al Quran into the local language, and dessimate it freely. Well, no good deed goes unpunished - they could be sentenced to death for "altering the word of God".

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29049101/

This highlights some of the real issues here: a central tenet of Islam is (seems to be) that the written words of the Quran constitute the literal voice of God. Of course, this is very similiar to the way plenty of low-brow Christians feel about the Bible... but the need to murder the people that insult the faith is MUCH more prevalent amongst Muslims than it is Christians these days.

... AND the right of Freedoms of speech and Religion are some of the core values of western/euro culture. I don't like the fact that large swaths of the middle east seem to want theocratic Islamic leaders, but its not really my business until they try to import it into countries with differing cultural values.

Poop Loops thought this thread was about a GENE WILDER film. Can you imagine how awsomely hilarious that would be? Gene Wilder IS Muhammed!

We can call it Blazing Bhurkas, or maybe Young Prophetstein.

Anglo-American values say you can make that film, and if someone is insulted then they don't have to fucking watch it.

Islamic Values say that people gotta die. BEHEAD THE GENE WILDER THAT INSULTS ISLAM!!!

Yeah, fuck that. If that's the way you roll in Kraplapistan, fine. But if you insist on bringing that backwards, barbaric shit with you, then stay the fuck out.

SFGOON
6th February 09, 05:23 PM
Well, this thread has gone down the usual buttsex toilet. You are all to be lauded.

HappyOldGuy
6th February 09, 05:24 PM
Anglo-American values say you can make that film, and if someone is insulted then they don't have to fucking watch it.


You are overstating that case (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0095497/) a little bit.

Zendetta
6th February 09, 05:56 PM
Yeah, good point. Too bad those Christian Jihadis kept that movie from being made and then forced the director and star to go into hiding due to the death threats.

Oh wait, none of that happened.

While many people used their right of free speech to complain about the film being aired, Scorcese wasn't blacklisted and Dafoe went on to star in many other films.

Thanks for making my point so elegantly for me HOG. Make a movie attacking the central figure in the dogma of the Christian tradition and you get nominated for an oscar.

Try it with Islam and you'll get nominated for a human rights violation.

WarPhalange
6th February 09, 06:04 PM
Looks like you can thank your "Anglo-American values" for that. I didn't read about any Muslims arresting the guy.

Cullion
6th February 09, 06:05 PM
Speaking of Freedom of Speech and Islam: a couple of Afghani dudes thought it would be neat to translate Al Quran into the local language, and dessimate it freely. Well, no good deed goes unpunished - they could be sentenced to death for "altering the word of God".

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29049101/

This highlights some of the real issues here: a central tenet of Islam is (seems to be) that the written words of the Quran constitute the literal voice of God. Of course, this is very similiar to the way plenty of low-brow Christians feel about the Bible... but the need to murder the people that insult the faith is MUCH more prevalent amongst Muslims than it is Christians these days.

... AND the right of Freedoms of speech and Religion are some of the core values of western/euro culture. I don't like the fact that large swaths of the middle east seem to want theocratic Islamic leaders, but its not really my business until they try to import it into countries with differing cultural values.

Poop Loops thought this thread was about a GENE WILDER film. Can you imagine how awsomely hilarious that would be? Gene Wilder IS Muhammed!

We can call it Blazing Bhurkas, or maybe Young Prophetstein.

Anglo-American values say you can make that film, and if someone is insulted then they don't have to fucking watch it.

Islamic Values say that people gotta die. BEHEAD THE GENE WILDER THAT INSULTS ISLAM!!!

Yeah, fuck that. If that's the way you roll in Kraplapistan, fine. But if you insist on bringing that backwards, barbaric shit with you, then stay the fuck out.

I don't know why you're so wedded to our sinning filthy lives of debt, substance abuse and cheap sex. Why not go out into the baja desert with 1, or 2 or 4 sweet, domesticated virgins with no intoxicants or external master-slave relationships and live for yourself?

You'll also probably get as fit and healthy as you've ever been. Be honest with yourself, you don't seriously and honestly care about gay rights that much. They can do what they want. Fine. Ok they've made their point, it's not your problem.

Women's rights? It was all in the Qu'ran first. Centuries before. Any complaint you have about Islam on this point is basically a critique of back-sliding rustic tribal people who put ancient primitive customs over the word of the Qu'ran. It's not a valid critique of the words of Mohammed (PBUH).

This isn't about them, this is about your soul.

Shawarma
6th February 09, 06:10 PM
Speaking of Freedom of Speech and Islam: a couple of Afghani dudes thought it would be neat to translate Al Quran into the local language, and dessimate it freely. Well, no good deed goes unpunished - they could be sentenced to death for "altering the word of God".

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29049101/

This highlights some of the real issues here: a central tenet of Islam is (seems to be) that the written words of the Quran constitute the literal voice of God. Of course, this is very similiar to the way plenty of low-brow Christians feel about the Bible... but the need to murder the people that insult the faith is MUCH more prevalent amongst Muslims than it is Christians these days.

... AND the right of Freedoms of speech and Religion are some of the core values of western/euro culture. I don't like the fact that large swaths of the middle east seem to want theocratic Islamic leaders, but its not really my business until they try to import it into countries with differing cultural values.

Poop Loops thought this thread was about a GENE WILDER film. Can you imagine how awsomely hilarious that would be? Gene Wilder IS Muhammed!

We can call it Blazing Bhurkas, or maybe Young Prophetstein.

Anglo-American values say you can make that film, and if someone is insulted then they don't have to fucking watch it.

Islamic Values say that people gotta die. BEHEAD THE GENE WILDER THAT INSULTS ISLAM!!!

Yeah, fuck that. If that's the way you roll in Kraplapistan, fine. But if you insist on bringing that backwards, barbaric shit with you, then stay the fuck out.

Yet another standard post to which I give yet another standard response: Culture =/= religion. It says nowhere in the koran that you can't translate it, merely that it's especially goddamned awesome for being in Arabic. Think, man, think! If translating the koran was universally forbidden by Islam, there would be, like, five non-Arabic korans in existence. The Afghans wanting to execute people for this has less to do with them being Muslims than them being Afghans, and by Afghans I mean pederastic tribal psychotics. The Taliban had laws dictating that men should wear long beards despite there being zero scriptural basis for it. It was simply Pushtun custom.

The koran actually never, ever says that "insulting Islam" is something you should be killed for. Agression against the Muslim people, yes, but not merely mocking the faith. "We'll laugh at you as you burn in hell, infidel" is given as the standard response.

So my take on it is that the strong reactions against perceived mockery of the Islamic faith has more to do with culture, cultural identity and alienation of Muslim expats who cling extra strongly to their religion rather than the religion itself. Because face it, the history of Judaism is about ten thousand times more horrible than anything Mohammed could ever dream up and nobody's shrieking about scary, scary Jews coming to rape their white wimmenz. That went out of style ca. 1945.

HappyOldGuy
6th February 09, 06:12 PM
While many people used their right of free speech to complain about the film being aired, Scorcese wasn't blacklisted and Dafoe went on to star in many other films.


Hate to break it to you, but any number of rightwing fuckheads tried to get it banned legally, including some congresscritters. And they succeeded in Australia. It was banned in several states there for many years. So get off yer high horse bub. We have the exact same conflicts here. It's just that the sides are better balanced.

WarPhalange
6th February 09, 06:15 PM
Shut the fuck up Shawarma, America is awesome because we were founded on CHRISTIAN principles and Iraq sucks because they are Arab-- errr... Muslims.

Shawarma
6th February 09, 06:24 PM
Societies form faiths, not the other way around.

Zendetta
6th February 09, 06:34 PM
I don't know why you're so wedded to our sinning filthy lives of debt, substance abuse and cheap sex. Why not go out into the baja desert with 1, or 2 or 4 sweet, domesticated virgins with no intoxicants or external master-slave relationships and live for yourself?

Dude, i'm working on it!


Any complaint you have about Islam on this point is basically a critique of back-sliding rustic tribal people who put ancient primitive customs over the word of the Qu'ran.

You've hit the nail on the head. My issue is not a doctrinal issue with Islam - I think that plenty of Christians believe crazy crap too.

My issue is with what happens when you give those back sliding rustic tribesmen citizenship in a first-world liberal democracy at a time when our leaders are too hamstrung by PC sentiment to speak up in defense of freedom.

HappyOldGuy
6th February 09, 06:37 PM
By the way, the last guy arrested for blasphemy in the US was in 1971 for a jesus as hippy display.

Zendetta
6th February 09, 06:37 PM
Hate to break it to you, but any number of rightwing fuckheads tried to get it banned legally, including some congresscritters. And they succeeded in Australia. It was banned in several states there for many years. So get off yer high horse bub. We have the exact same conflicts here. It's just that the sides are better balanced.

Yeah, that's great. And how would my idea of a Gene Wilder-as-Muhamed comedy be received in ANY predominantly muslim country?

We DO have the same conflicts here - and we are several hundred years more advanced in the way we handle them.

Zendetta
6th February 09, 06:39 PM
Shut the fuck up Shawarma, America is awesome because we were founded on CHRISTIAN principles and Iraq sucks because they are Arab-- errr... Muslims.

Seriously, though: America is fucking awesome because we were founded on Enlightenment Values.

Zendetta
6th February 09, 06:49 PM
The koran actually never, ever says...

I am far less concerned with what the Holy Book says that what the Believers do.

I know that the Quran can be translated. That seems to be all the translaters intended. Ooops. I'm sure Allah will understand, but the Taliban won't.

now this...


Societies form faiths, not the other way around.

... leans towards a false dichotomy IMO. Separating a culture from its belief system is a dicey prospect.

Now your culture=/= religion point is valid enough. Would it help you to understand my position better if I said that its the backwards mideival culture that exists in many predominantly muslim countries that I don't like?

Shawarma
6th February 09, 06:54 PM
Gotta agree to disagree, then. I maintain that something as easily changed as a belief system is shaped by social changes far more than vice-versa.

Look at it like this - The old testament is the most insanely vicious piece of writing ever. Its pages are criss-crossed with stories of rape, mutilation, genocide, infanticide and incest. Yahwe commanded the annihilation of non-Hebrew tribes at the drop of a yamulka. And yet the Jewish people have progressed so far that in this day and age any sane Jew would shudder at the thought of these things.

Now, look at the koran. The koran is not only astonishingly permissive of non-Muslims by sheer virtue of allowing them to draw breath, it also outlines rules for charity and appropriate treatment of women. And the majority of Muslim countries are ass-backwards shitholes ruled by dictators.

Religion is a sideshow, holmes. The real reasons for the wars and breaches of human rights are cultural or political.

WarPhalange
6th February 09, 06:58 PM
Seriously, though: America is fucking awesome because we were founded on Enlightenment Values.

Seriously, though: shut the fuck up. You are constantly using "culture", "religion", and "country/government" as if they were all the same thing. You have generic anger at what is going on but no idea where to channel it.

Zendetta
6th February 09, 07:10 PM
I maintain that something as easily changed as a belief system is shaped by social changes far more than vice-versa.

I see it as a two-way street. Belief systems shape social changes all the time.


Look at it like this - The old testament is the most insanely vicious piece of writing ever. Its pages are criss-crossed with stories of rape, mutilation, genocide, infanticide and incest. Yahwe commanded the annihilation of non-Hebrew tribes at the drop of a yamulka.

Totally. "Old Testament Comix" was awesome, if you havn't seen it. Its done in the style of the old pre-code EC horror comics.


And yet the Jewish people have progressed so far that in this day and age any sane Jew would shudder at the thought of these things.

err... Gaza? white phosphorous?


Now, look at the koran. The koran is not only astonishingly permissive of non-Muslims by sheer virtue of allowing them to draw breath, it also outlines rules for charity and appropriate treatment of women. And the majority of Muslim countries are ass-backwards shitholes ruled by dictators.

Some of its rather inspiring, especially given the context. Especially the commandments around charity, hospitality, and usury.


Religion is a sideshow, holmes. The real reasons for the wars and breaches of human rights are cultural or political.

Yes. But "culture" doesn't exist in a vacuum. And "god is down with my plan" is a constant justification for said breaches. Or did those Muhamed cartoons have an economic/political cost I'm not aware of?

Nah. It was "Insult Islam=Death".


Gotta agree to disagree, then.

Well, our culture says you have that right. Western Values FTW

Zendetta
6th February 09, 07:19 PM
Seriously, though: shut the fuck up.

Might makes Right here: post a decent arguement and maybe I will.


You are constantly using "culture", "religion", and "country/government" as if they were all the same thing.

Given your propensity for Straw Man arguements, I can see why you'd say that, so let me make it clear for you: they are not the same, but they cannot be separated so easily either.


You have generic anger...

Actually, my anger is very specifically focused on western people who don't appreciate the excellent things that western culture has created - such as an appreciation for free speech and open debate.

I see it as a prime example of what fucking sucks in our culture.

HappyOldGuy
6th February 09, 07:22 PM
Actually, my anger is very specifically focused on western people who don't appreciate the excellent things that western culture has created - such as an appreciation for free speech and open debate.

I see it as a prime example of what fucking sucks in our culture.
So your anger is that people in our culture don't express their appreciation for open debate by uniformly agreeing with you.

Zendetta
6th February 09, 07:23 PM
So you punks don't miss the point of this whole goddam thread:


Gotta agree to disagree, then.


Well, our culture says you have that right. Western Values FTW

Later.

Shawarma
6th February 09, 07:24 PM
The Mohammed cartoons came out in a time when the war on terror was in full effect, Zen. The war on terror consisted of invading two Muslim countries in a self-styled "crusade" that killed and humiliated hundreds of thousands of Muslims and convinced untold millions more that this was a declaration of war on the Islamic world by the decadent west.

The reason the reaction from the cartoons was strong in certain parts of the world was because it was seen as part of the crusade against the Muslim faith and Muslim identity. If this had happened in, say, 1985, nobody would likely have given a shit, but there weren't western boots on the ground in Muslim countries shooting children and doing light bondage SM with Muslim inmates then.

Many Muslims believe their culture and faith is under attack by the decadent west, which is why they tend to be so fucking uptight about any perceived offense against their religious beliefs. Oh, that and the huge fucking ego of your average Arab dude.

*Awards self 10 racism points*

Incidentally, you might want to forget what you think you know about the Mohammed cartoon crisis. If you weren't in DK at the time, you most likely haven't a fucking clue about how what a gigantic facepalm-inducing incident that was. Suffice to say that everything about the incident was political, most likely including the burnt-down embassies in the middle east.

WarPhalange
6th February 09, 07:35 PM
Might makes Right here: post a decent arguement and maybe I will.
Penicillin was a milestone for human medicine, since it started the developments of anti-biotics in general, which have saved literally MILLIONS of lives.

Not what you wanted? Oh. Then maybe you should fucking tell me what it is we are arguing about here? I'm just picking apart your faulty logic so far.


Given your propensity for Straw Man arguements, I can see why you'd say that, so let me make it clear for you: they are not the same, but they cannot be separated so easily either.
Yes, they can. You can separate culture from country, i.e. first generation immigrants. You can separate culture from religion, i.e. 2nd generation Muslims vs. 1st generation. And country from religion is pretty obvious. We have Muslims all over the world, moving all over the world.

Look at which ones are the being violent and assholes in general and you'll know what is the dominating factor here.


Actually, my anger is very specifically focused on western people who don't appreciate the excellent things that western culture has created - such as an appreciation for free speech and open debate.
Believe me, I would give Western Culture a blowjob if it were possible. But since it's not some sort of tangible entity, I'm not going to go around telling everyone how much I love Western Culture.


I see it as a prime example of what fucking sucks in our culture.
How does appreciating something make it any better? Appreciating something is fine, but saying ZOMG IT'S THE BOMB!!! just means you have given up on trying to find something better.

Truculent Sheep
6th February 09, 07:41 PM
The big problem with this issue is that it's the nutters on both sides of the argument who are setting the terms while the relatively normal are left fumbling in the dust or are barely being heard at all.

Shawarma
6th February 09, 07:43 PM
Or, as I said, just don't really give a shit. Hey, what's on TV?

Truculent Sheep
6th February 09, 07:45 PM
Right now it's Martin Sheen on the Friday Night Project. He's already been dressed up in leather and they've just done an Apocalypse-Now-As-Musical skit.

Catherine Tate and her big tits are on next! Yay!

HappyOldGuy
6th February 09, 08:10 PM
her big tits

The solution to all the worlds problems.

Virus
6th February 09, 08:35 PM
If this had happened in, say, 1985, nobody would likely have given a shit

Salman Rushdie.

Truculent Sheep
6th February 09, 08:39 PM
The solution to all the worlds problems.

You knows it, Clart!

Shawarma
6th February 09, 08:51 PM
Salman Rushdie.
Good point. But the protests at the time were nowhere near as widespread outside of Iran as they are today over perceived insults against the Muslim community or Islamic faith.

EuropIan
6th February 09, 10:06 PM
Incidentally, you might want to forget what you think you know about the Mohammed cartoon crisis. If you weren't in DK at the time, you most likely haven't a fucking clue about how what a gigantic facepalm-inducing incident that was. Suffice to say that everything about the incident was political, most likely including the burnt-down embassies in the middle east.

The best part of that whole cartoon crisis was the "OMG WE ARE LOSING DIARY PRODUCT SALES IN THE MIDDLE EAST OMG! OMG!" That was somehow more worrying than "omg they rushed and attempted to torch our embassy but no one got hurt so I guess that's ok. I wonder if they'll buy our diary products now?"

Virus
6th February 09, 10:11 PM
Good point. But the protests at the time were nowhere near as widespread outside of Iran as they are today over perceived insults against the Muslim community or Islamic faith.

Bookstores were bombed all over England and a few in the US. One of the translators was killed.


In Islamic communities the novel began causing controversy almost at once because of what some Muslims considered blasphemous references. By October 1988 letters and phone calls began to come into Viking Penguin from Muslims angry with the book and demanding it be withdrawn.[7] Before the end of the month the book was banned in India.[7] In November 1988 it was also banned in Bangladesh, Sudan, and South Africa.[7] By December 1988 it was also banned in Sri Lanka.[7] March 1989 saw it banned in Kenya, Thailand, Tanzania, Indonesia, and Singapore.[7] The last nation which banned the book was Venezuela in June 1989.[7]

In the United States, the FBI was notified of 78 threats to bookstores in early March 1989, thought to be a small proportion of the total number. B. Dalton bookstore chain received 30 threats in less than three hours. Bombings of book stores included two in Berkeley California. But the United Kingdom was the country where violence against bookstores occurred most often and persisted the longest. Two large Charing Cross Road London bookstores (Collets and Dillons) were bombed on April 9. In May, explosions went off in the town of High Wycombe and again in London, on King's Road. Other bombings include one at a large London department store (Liberty's), in connection with the Penguin Bookshop inside the store, and at the Penguin store in York. Unexploded devices were found at Penguin stores in Guildford, Nottingham, and Peterborough.

The bombings meant that hardly a single bookstore sold Rushdie's novel openly in the UK. In the United States, it was unavailable in about one-third of the bookstores. In many others which carried the book, it was kept under the counter.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Satanic_Verses_controversy

Virus
6th February 09, 10:55 PM
Many Muslims believe their culture and faith is under attack by the decadent west, which is why they tend to be so fucking uptight about any perceived offense against their religious beliefs.


Muslims kill other Muslims for blasphemy.



everything about the incident was political, most likely including the burnt-down embassies in the middle east.

Please clarify what you mean by "political" as distinct from religion.
On what grounds do you assert that religion was irrelevant to the issue?

HappyOldGuy
6th February 09, 11:23 PM
Dude, don't read much into the US bombing. We bomb shit in Berkeley on general principle.

It's also very long odds that the person who did it was a muslim. Our crazies fixate on all sorts of bizarre causes.

EuropIan
6th February 09, 11:29 PM
I don't see total islamofication happen in many countries in Europe..


I would imagine a potential apartheid scenario, with Boer-like enclaves.

Virus
7th February 09, 12:55 AM
I don't see total islamofication happen in many countries in Europe..


I would imagine a potential apartheid scenario, with Boer-like enclaves.

Edit: Sorry I misinterpreted your post Ian GR but I'm leaving my reply here anyway.

Total Islamification hasn't happened yet, but what is happening is the demand that Europe change to satisfy Islamic values. Islamic violence has produced fear in which people are afraid not only to criticize Islam, but to even talk about it. Muslims are offended by everything.

Images of Mohamed are offensive to Islam, the works of Voltaire* are offensive to Islam. Even Islam is offensive to Islam. They're offended simply by people saying what is in the Koran.

Will you be picking up your copy of The Jewel of Medina? Of course not. The book has been pulled from publication in non-Muslim countries because it doesn't meet the approval of Islam. Do any Muslims deny that Mohammed fucked a kid? No. They just don't want anyone mentioning it.

*http://uniset.ca/terr/news/wsj_voltaire_mohammed.html

SFGOON
7th February 09, 12:57 AM
Please clarify what you mean by "political" as distinct from religion.
On what grounds do you assert that religion was irrelevant to the issue?

Conscripts always kill for the sake of religion on the orders of Generals, who send them to battle for political purposes.

War is like an onion. It has LAYERS.

And, all of them stink.

Virus
7th February 09, 01:30 AM
Fundamentalist Muslims don't think of religion and politics the same way that 21st century westerners do. Islam proscribes all aspects of life, from the correct way to take a shit to the correct system of government. A fundamentalist Muslim does not leave his religion at the door when he exits the mosque and he does not think that his religion is a private, personal matter.

Having said that, I'd be interested in a specific set of evidence which suggests the danish cartoon reaction was not dependent or relevant to religion. (please no musings on human nature, that's not evidence.)

HappyOldGuy
7th February 09, 01:39 AM
This doesn't seem very hidden to me (http://www.amazon.com/Jewel-Medina-Sherry-Jones/dp/0825305187/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1233988738&sr=8-1).

Virus
7th February 09, 02:56 AM
I was wrong. The book was dropped by the original publisher Random House due to fears of Islamic violence but another company Beaufort Books has bought it.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/09/08/2357882.htm

AAAhmed46
8th February 09, 05:53 PM
It's despicable to think that it is now illegal to "insult" an opinion, a belief, something that doesn't actually exist, and even more despicable that someone could be prosecuted for doing so.

"I like orange butterflies. They're the awesomest!"

"I hate orange butterflies! They are inferior to the purple butterflies!"

"My belief that orange butterflies are the best is insulted! Die pig-dog! You must be punished!"

*insert weak-ass laws passed by easily intimidated pussy government to placate the violent, unstable purple butterfly likers at the expense of the dissenting orange butterfly likers' right to like what color butterfly they choose and to freely express their opinions no matter what others may think*

It's nonsense, no matter what. Slippery slope, welcome to the Netherlands... What freedom is next to go?


People have been beaten to death because of such movies and opinions. Rally up the masses into anger.

I don't think they should stifle his ability of free expression, but his desire to descriminate against a select minority should be condemned.




Here is an article i found. I don't agree completely with his views since he's motivated by some religious zeal, but hey, he makes some good points. I copied and pasted it, so some of the text, which are hyper links, won't work. Ill try posting them at the bottom.

It had lots of pictures, but i couldn't copy and paste them and i didn't feel like it uploading them.


Immigration, Integration, and the illusion of Inclusion Part 2: The ULTIMATE guide to the Danish hate cartoons
A Muslim reaps the benefits of integration and tolerance at the hands of a drunken Australian mob. The sisters on the right aren't buying it, and neither should you.










Enough to give you an appetite for suhoor isn't it? Please read the introduction and part 1 before proceeding any further. We've already established multiculturalism was a slick, PR fueled, flea bitten myth to present static, monocultural European societies as dynamic cosmopolitan states where everyone holds hands singing kumbaya. It’s all too easy to claim that one is tolerant of "diversity" when everyone in society looks and acts the same way, but the real test comes when different groups emerge and assert themselves. Keep in mind, Europe has never had a civil rights movement, and it shows. European peoples have had hundreds of years of distinct ethno-history and shared culture which have created social consensus that is now being “challenged” by immigrants from what were, until WWII, "subjects" from their overseas Colonies. How do the children of former colonial subjects come to identify with and be proud of the history of their "adopted country", which includes the oppression and exploitation of their ancestors, as recently as two generations ago? Oh, but Muslims have bent over backwards trying to “assimilate” into a “culture” which doesn’t want them unless they becomes slaves mired in ideological bondage. This draconian pipe dream may have worked on the immigrant generation but their children aren’t having any of it, and with good reason. They’re young, smart, educated and unwilling to be second and third class citizens languishing in ghettos. The European response has been to endlessly attack the community in a series of increasingly racist and dehumanizing provocations through media misrepresentation, ostracization, threats, assault, arson and even murder. Next time one of these idiots demand that you shed crocodile tears for Nazi pornographers like Theo Van Gogh, tell them about Özgür Dennis Uzun(L), the 17 year old boy who was murdered in broad daylight by Danes who called him a "black ape." His crime? Being a Turkish immigrant who sold newspapers while working his way through school.

How about Mohammed Al-Majed(R) who was murdered a week ago? His crime? Being a 16 year old foreign exchange student in England.

White Europeans cannot allow Muslims to be different in the way that they love to believe they are different (barbaric, women hating savages with values that "are incompatible with our own") but at the same time cannot abide the idea that Muslims are actually like everyone else. It's a hypocritical position born of a need to feel superior which expresses itself through discrimination by people who at the same time self-righteously lecture the Muslims they are victimizing about "enlightened values."

Enter Denmark, a small European country whose chief exports are dairy products and bad cookies. Hygge(cozyness) is a complete absence of anything annoying, irritating, or emotionally overwhelming, and the presence of and pleasure from comforting, gentle, and soothing things in Danish culture. Makes me just want to overdose on cotton candy. According to a goofy study, Danes are unrivaled in satisfaction with life. I can see why. Imagine getting paid to go to school, where you can take your sweet time getting a bachelors degree anywhere from 6 to 8 years(hey, the legal pot makes them forget!). Let’s not forget "free" health care with the tax rate at around 60%, what a socialist utopia! Being in diapers from birth till death was never so much fun! Danes are also notoriously xenophobic and racist, blaming immigrants and those perceived to be foreign for just about everything, while refusing to do the work themselves. There was an excellent documentary on WorldLink TV a few years ago on immigration in Denmark called "Home Sweet Home." The amount of jealousy, stupidity and narrow mindedness displayed by the Danes was astounding. Am I seriously supposed to sympathize with an unemployed far right Nativist with a degree in religion resenting an immigrant Iranian doctor? Truly a nation of adult delinquents. But the Danes weren't content merely being a nation of whiny loafers, their fascists went ahead after years of baiting to launch their worst provocation against not just the local Muslim minority, but the entire world of Islam. They bit off more then they could chew. So what did the Danes and their supporters do when the fit hit the shan? They lied their behinds off.

Before we delve into the subject Danish hate cartoons, there are a number of myths concocted by the usual suspects which need to be addressed, refuted, and relegated to the garbage bin where they came from. Anti-Islamic propaganda(all the way back to the Crusades) deeply rooted in the European psyche has brought neo-Nazis, neocons, shabbos goyim and their Zionist overlords together on both sides of the Atlantic hopped up on Krusader Kool aid known as the "war on terror." Lets deconstruct some of these lies:


Lie #243 Hijab “threatens” primitive secular fanaticism Hijab bans were up until late 2005 the most blatant indicator that Europe has declared war on its Muslim communities, contrary to popular delusion this started 20 years ago in France (the most racist, not to mention laziest country in Europe) as Communism collapsed. What better enemy now then a Muslim school girl? Hijab bans are essentially a Taliban like edict which denies education to girls. An incredibly stupid and mean spirited move which in fact politicizes young people, and do you think for a second that these kids will grow up respecting the state which put them between a rock and a hard place? I wouldn’t. Even idiotic french gynaecologists got into the act. Please spare me the manure laden secular pseudo argument that it’s against all “religious symbols” which the hijab is not. Crucifix? Cool. Kippa? No problem! Hijab? Hold it right there! When all is said and done, the hijab furor reflects a broader sentiment wafting across: it's fine to be Muslim, just don't remind us about it by the way you dress. Tough. We’re not going to change our Deen to suit your narrow minded racist backwardness.


Lie #486 Muslims are "taking over" the continent! That’s right, 50 million of us are taking over a continent of 730 million. So just how are Muslims "taking over" the continent? Having more kids then the average European? (Insert conspiracy theory here) No apologies there, we're family oriented people and consider children to be a blessing. Europeans have no one but themselves to blame for their material selfishness. Ironic really considering that Europeans tend to be rather promiscuous. Disingenuous demographic conspiracy theories aside, who's stopping you from having kids, or going to church? Oh thats right, it takes responsibility and personal sacrifice to raise a child doesn't it? This may explain why Europeans have negative population growth. Perhaps this is the reason for the dehumanizing European caricature of pregnant Muslim woman on the left? Yes indeed, we're going to take you over one halal restaurant at a time! Maybe that’s why this town of moronic Italians banned take out Chinese and Middle Eastern food. I guess Rumsfeld was onto something with that "old Europe" line. Good riddance to bad rubbish.


Lie #502 : Muslims and crime statistics Crime statistics are also a common theme European racists and fanatics like to exploit. The vast majority of crimes, including rape are committed by the natives themselves. However when a member of a minority community is involved, a spectacular call to arms is made in true media fashion followed by the urgent need to "discuss" the "growing" problem of the colored masses. Just who do you think runs massive pedophile rings, the drug trade, prostitution rackets and human trafficking? Not the Muslims.


Lie#612 : Islam isn’t a race hence abuse of Muslims is in no way or form racist. My, my, my, aren't they so very clever? Insistence that Islam isn't a race and therefore representations of Islam cannot be racist is disingenuous rubbish. Religion is not only about faith but also about identity, background and culture, and Muslims are overwhelmingly non-white. In the mind of the hate mongers, Islam is a religion of non-whites and white race traitors. They see black skin and head scarves the same way. Being Jewish used to be simply a religious identity. With the rise of capitalism, it was transmuted into a racial one. What we are seeing today is the opposite process with Islam. If we must be so asinine as to insist upon using skin color as a determinant of race, I would ask why the Muslims represented in Islamophobic filth never EVER look like Indonesian Muslims, even though it is the most populous Muslim country on the planet. The reason is simple: Muslims are seen and stereotyped as a “race,” especially as dark skinned, unkempt Arabs and Pakistanis.


Now for the timeline:


September 2005 : Jyllands Posten, a right wing newspaper with a history of supporting Fascism and Nazism prints hateful caricatures of the Prophet(saw). The same paper refused to lampoon Christ(a.s.) three years prior(not that we would support such an act against any of the Prophets(a.s.)). Turns out that editor Fleming Rose is bosom buddies with Judeofascist Daniel Pipes.


October 2005 : Danish Imams approach the Danish government and the PM, followed by petitions from ambassadors from 11 Muslim nations. Both parties are ignored and told to take a hike. At the end of the month, Danish Muslims took the matter to court showing that the Jyllands Posten was in violation of the Danish Criminal Code, section 140 & 266b. Other European papers start to print the racist caricatures as well. Egyptian newspaper El Fagr publishes six of the cartoons during Ramadan along with an article strongly denouncing them. The publication of the images does not provoke any known protests from either the Egyptian religious authorities nor the Egyptian government. These facts are selectively reported and spun by local third rate blogger and inferiority complex suffering “Uncle Tamer,” “Sand Monkey” in a bid to increase his web traffic and earn his neocon knee pads. I dealt with this sycophantic loser a few years ago, he was never to be seen on AltMuslim again. But we will revisit and expose him in a future post.


November 2005 : Danish Muslims are subjected to a media smear campaign. Masjids and Islamic organizations are sent everything from death threats to more offensive pictures. Muslims organize a boycott of Danish products starting in the Middle East.


December 2005 : The Danish Imams take the pro-active step of taking the matter directly to religious leaders in the Muslim world. Imam Ahmed Abu Laban and Ahmed Akkari lead delegations to a number of Middle Eastern countries. The dossier they carry has the original set of racist caricatures in addition to the others sent individually by Danes.


January 2006 : Danish authorities clear the Jyllands Posten of any wrong doing. The boycott is in full motion with Danish firms suffering losses in the hundreds of millions of dollars. The Jyllands Posten issues a half-hearted “clarification” and insists the caricatures were never meant to be offensive (yeah right).


Feburary 2006 : The caricatures are re-printed in multiple European newspapers in another attempt to provoke a violent response. It fails. Hundreds of peaceful protests are organized across the Islamic world with only a handful turning violent (in Occupied Iraq, and Afghanistan especially) after police shoot protestors dead. A few empty buildings are also burnt down in Syria. Western media focuses exclusively on violent protests misrepresenting the Muslim response. A handful of isolated idiots from the banned “Al-Muhajiroon” group are given maximum coverage while ignoring thousands of peaceful demonstrators. An agent provocateur dressed up as suicide bomber also shows up. Photoshopped images of "behead those who say Islam is violent," also hit the web in a smear attempt by Denmark's supporters.

Lie#699 : Muslims draw similar cartoons of Jews and Christians as well Really? Can these lying bastards show us where Muslims have made caricatures of Moses(a.s.) and Jesus(a.s.) or any other Prophets? Ofcourse they can’t because such depictions do NOT exist. Muslims are forbidden from depicting any of the Prophets, and respect them deeply. Malaysia shut down a Tamil newspaper for cartoon of Christ(a.s.) and righly so. Muslim nations also banned "The DaVinci code" for its repulsive content. However, lampooning Zionist terrorists like current vegetable Ariel Sharon is fair game. Or do they do consider Israeli war criminals sacred figures who are off limits? Check out this drawing of Olmert as a concentration guard in Schindler's List fashion : How many European and American newspapers dared to published it? Only one. Never to be published again thanks to a phone call from the local Israeli embassy.

Lie#788 : Muslims are misunderstood the intention of the cartoonists On the contrary, we understood the intention of the Danish cartoonists very well. Why did no Muslim protest when "30 days as a Muslim" was brodcast? The episode did show a cartoon of the Prophet(saw) so why was there no controversy? Simple, they made a mistake and those of us who saw the show knew it, and didn't see any reason to doubt the sincerity of the producers. Unlike the Danes and their idiotic supporters, we aren't afraid of a real debate. The Danish cartoonists knew exactly what they were doing and targetted the entire Muslim ummah in a calculatted move to foment Islamophobia across the continent. Theres a clear difference between making an error and going out of your way repeatedly to pick a fight with 1.6 billion people.

Lie# 834 : Muslims should not have boycotted Danish products So now they insist that not only do they have a "right" to demonize us, but also to instruct us on how to react to their racist provocations. Talk about hubris. You don't need an MBA from Harvard to know that the basis for any successfull business relationship is honesty and respect, two qualities the degenerate Danes don't seem to possess. The more you provoke, the more reactions you get. Our first one was a grass roots boycott, and righly so. I have every right in the world not to do business with those who repeatedly spit in my face. Yes, its just that simple..and no, I don't care about any "starving" Danish farmers. Their socialist welfare state can look after them. On a historical note, the Jews made sure that Hitler's actions against their community was rewarded by a worldwide boycott of German goods. Not to difficult to understand now is it? The usual suspects called for a boycott of Muslim goods. PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, do so. But you can't can you? That oil is real "addicting" isn't it? Baba Ghanoush and Gulab Jamoons will have to take care of themselves. Nablusi cheese is better anyway. Boycotts work best long term, so let your wallets do the talking.

Lie#923 : Muslims are too sensitive and get easily offended A futile exercise in projection. We don't care who you are, what you eat(even during Ramadan), who you sleep with, how many bowels you've had etc. Believe me, you're not that important. But on a relevant note, we could point to the heavy bombardment of Muslim countries, justified by a discourse about backwards Muslims. We could point to the books and the articles, the films and the newspaper cartoons. We could point to the dramatic decline in standard of living for Muslims post-9/11. We could indicate the heavy state surveillance of and repeated political attacks upon Muslim communities in the West, the hysteria over the hijab and the niqab. We could point to Guantanamo Bay, the use of secret trials, extraordinary rendition(sanitized speak for kidnapping), extracting false confessions under torture, warrant less wiretaps and raids, special loyalty tests. The Geneva convention you say? That applies only to those of European stock. It does not cover people of color. Europeans can do anything to people with more melanocytes, they can nuke them, they can Agent orange them, the can mass kill them , the can parade them around naked, that's ok. Look at the Judeofascists(East Europeans masquerading as Semites), they are putting the Palestinians behind walls in concentration camp conditions, they've jailed over 10,000 and killed thousands of civilians and have millions of cluster bombs for the purpose of killing more civilians. Did any of the western governments say that conflicts with their Geneva convention? Not one. Violent, hypocritical uncivilized fanatics, this lot eh? Of course there are so many more examples of this sort of behavior, but you get my drift.

So pardon me for not being an eager and pleasant target.

Lie#1001 : Its all about "Freedom of speech" Last but not least is this biggest LIE of all. “Freedom of speech” is a myth, a delusional, self-righteous and highly selective narrative based off politicized pseudo-philosophical chest thumping. "I may disagree with what you have to say, but I shall defend, to the death, your right to say it"? Bulls***. All societies regulate what can and can’t be said. Free speech doesn’t exist, and certainly not in absolute form. Not in Africa, not in Asia, not in South America and certainly NOT in the western world. Don’t believe me? Does the Patriot Act and the Military Commissions Act ring a bell? Remember what happened to the Dixie chicks after their criticism of Bush? The shameless self-censorship when it comes to Zionism and Israel? The academic persecution of Norman Finkelstein? How about David Irving doing time in jail(despite being an idiot)? McCarthyist "Campus Watch" courteosy of Judeofascist Daniel Pipes? How about being filmed from birth till death in the UK? Spying? Sure! Phone tapping? Absolutely! A public call for assassinating a foreign head of state? No problem! Problem with publishing certain books? No, UNLESS you do this, and this. Yes, you do have “freedom of speech” as long as you shut up or agree with the powers that be in these sophisticated police states. I’ll be adding a new category to this blog titled “Freedumb of speech” to cover the daily violations of "freedom of speech" by those who claim to champion it.
Freedom to mouth racist insults in public isn't freedom of expression - its anti-freedom, it's anti-democracy, its racism. Racists don't believe in democracy or freedom - they believe in exploiting the weaknesses they see in "liberal democracy" and taking advantage of these supposed weaknesses to claim their racist abuse has something to do with supporting and defending 'western values.' In the same way Goebbels exploited the weaknesses in the “democracy” of his day to spread his evil poison - he also claimed he was a champion of the West against foreigners from the East.You say you have freedom, you have freedom? You have been told what freedom is - oh, women drive cars? That makes them free, yeah right. You "essentially" have no idea what freedom is - you are free to pursue what you have been told freedom is. No one is talking about MK-Ultra here, or some exotic form of mind control - that is not necessary. Buried within the seed of your identity is enough control, voiced through an army of authority figures is enough to make you tow the line. Oh, I'm sorry did I just go overboard and enter the territory of "hate speech"? Yes they do have hate crimes legislation which for some odd reason doesn't cover Muslim communities(or abused by us). Guess who's been immunized from criticism? Stupid, spinless shabbos goyim hypocrites, did you honestly think we don't know whats going on here? Don't yell fire, and complain about being trampled. You never believed in "free speech" and deep down, you know it.

So which ridiculous
caricature do you
think got published?
Sacred cows, anyone?













Getting back to the whole integration "debate," how did it work out for the Bosnians? They were ethnically European, spoke the local language, intermarried with Serbs, many of them being Muslim in name only. Not only were they systematically massacred but they were prevented from even defending themselves thanks to a weapons embargo(which was violated by the Russians to supply the Serbs). NATO bombed Serbia several years later in a bid to establish bases in east Europe under the guise of humanitarianism. My point being that grovelling appeasement to such criminals will lead to many more Srebrenicas.
As cliche as it may sound, those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
My sincere advice to European racists and hypocrites is this :


Here are the hyper links from the page:



Pictures of dude beaten into coma: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_2uMRHX-nagE/SL5DQ-2aeJI/AAAAAAAAAVs/KbDKaXmG-4c/s1600-h/turc.jpg


Banning chinese and middle eastern food:

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?c=Article_C&cid=1187775988956&pagename=Zone-English-News/NWELayout


30 days as a muslim:
http://www.videosift.com/video/30-Days-As-A-Muslim-44mins

Malaysia shutting down an offensive newspaper thingy: http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?c=Article_C&cid=1187775988956&pagename=Zone-English-News/NWELayout

On freedom of speech:

http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=6994

http://www.zmag.org/znet/viewArticle/14248

Zendetta
8th February 09, 05:57 PM
^^^ Yep.

The voice of reason is from Kanuckistan. That should tell us something!

Shawarma
8th February 09, 06:09 PM
Actually, middle-eastern immigrants to Europe are way, waaay overrepresented in crime statistics. I personally blame this not on their religion but on the fact that a lot of them are totally uneducated, empoverished and originate from 3rd world goatfucker shitholes and then suddenly have to adjust to living in an industrialised western nation where the laws are so soft they have no respect for them.

Mohammed never advocated ghetto-ass gangstalicious behaviour.

Cullion
8th February 09, 06:17 PM
Oh, but Muslims have bent over backwards trying to “assimilate” into a “culture”



Keep in mind, Europe has never had a civil rights movement, and it shows.


What kind of angry delusional crack is this idiot smoking ?

AAAhmed46
8th February 09, 06:31 PM
What kind of angry delusional crack is this idiot smoking ?



....which is why i take what he writes with a grain of salt.

Based on one of his previous articles, he actually seems more sympathetic to the U.S. then he is of europe, since he believes europe to be more xenaphobic. In the other article he posts videos trying to argue his point. Like any bias writer, he cherry picks. A bit problem i have is he does the same thing as the anti-muslims he hates: He looks at europian countries as a whole rather then seeing the individual history of countries.

Here are some of the videos he posted(that i could link): As well as the article.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xp2yL12BZ50&feature=player_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRhJ9XbuXNE&feature=player_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4dgQ4LWVVo&feature=player_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQde-vHlLh8&feature=player_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PuZwdKgUajY&feature=player_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Id4wtBJHMdU&feature=player_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hj25iI7Tdc0&feature=player_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwpO-nnFY9g&feature=player_embedded





Hmm, I'm beginning to see a pattern here. Catch my drift? Yep, they sure gave us a lot. Europeans are a lot of things, tolerant isn't one of them. It is not an exaggeration to point out that significant numbers of Europeans openly profess http://www.wired.com/culture/lifestyle/news/1997/12/9313 (2)racism.

This brings us to the myth of multiculturalism. With all the events in recent memory, there's now a "hot debate" about the merits of this phenomenon. I'm here to tell you the "debate" is bogus because multiculturalism never existed, at least not at the grandiose level claimed by its supporters and detractors. Just because you have different groups of people in a society hardly means you're living in a "multicultural" paradise where likes and differences are respected. The "debate" is essentially turnspeak for justifying racism through manufactured outrage, and winning elections through fear mongering.
Europe's dirty little secret is that it depends on immigration(labor and professional) if it is to maintain its "high" standards of living. Oh, and don't forget paying over 50% in taxes( "free" health care you know). Is the behavior we see in Europe today a fluke, or is it deeply ingrained bigotry symptomatic of a continent with no real culture left whatsoever? That was just the warm up, folks. Next up, the Muslim question, a thorough refutation of European propaganda, and the ULTIMATE guide to the danish hate cartoons. I leave you with this video of the success of "multiculturalism"(is that a banana or racism?) till then :



And thus why one should look at his bias.


It's actually a blog, it was created inspired by pat condell actually, a 'muslim' version of pat condell. So it's 40 percent fake hate.

HappyOldGuy
8th February 09, 06:41 PM
Based on one of his previous articles, he actually seems more sympathetic to the U.S. then he is of europe, since he believes europe to be more xenaphobic.
I suspect for muslims in most countries that's probably true.

We're mostly bigots against blacks and hispanics round these parts.

AAAhmed46
8th February 09, 06:42 PM
Fixed that for you.

http://fube.ca/images/posts/rushdie.jpg


It was khomenie(yeah i spelled it wrong but probably say it better then you guys) who put the fatwa out.

Sunni's were pretty much disinterested in it, because they don't have to follow fatwas like that. Most tried to distance themselves but because of general misinformation people had, namly not knowing about the sunni and shia split that sunni's were also dragged through the mud.

Khomenia was an ayatollah, so his stuff was taken more seriously by the Shia(shia are like catholics while sunnis are more like protestants, not an accurate discription but close enough), they made most of the news. And even THAT was exaggerated.



Originally posted by pooploops)

People who are fanatics like that are just batshit insane. Yes, they still exist here and everywhere, but the people joining Al Qaeda and fighting us in Iraq aren't fanatics for the most part. They have other reasons for fighting us, i.e. having a shitty country and they percieve us as doing this to them.

I agree.

I know neo-cons who believe this too, that politics is a big part, and these are guys that want to bomb Iran. Jared Cohen writes about how most of it is politically motivated by true and untrue political grieviences that manifest it self religiously, and he's pro-isreal and worked with condeleeza rice.

AAAhmed46
8th February 09, 06:54 PM
Poop-loops, I strongly recommend you visit Paris, and, during the daylight hours, try and do a quick tour of one of the modern cheap housing projects at the periphery.

You'll notice that each 'suburb' (where the poor muslim North Africans generally live) is basically a careful piece of urban planning where each group of high-rise homes can be quickly 'quarantined' from the rest of Paris by turning off the electricity to a single train line and blockading one or two highways (usually with high concrete walls either side) with an armoured car or two.

It's not an accident they're designed like that. That's how afraid the elites of Europe really are. In the UK, we're a lot less 'gated community' about it, and we basically try to placate them by throwing money at them.

Do you understand how few generations some European countries are to having muslims be the majority of the population ?

Some have less time than Israel.


Yes but most muslims who live in western countries get westernized, especially the indeginous youth.

THe countries may become brown, but they sure as hell won't be any 'islamist' governments coming up any time soon, those baby eaters love their demoncracy, especually those that lived in the west.

Shawarma
8th February 09, 06:58 PM
Also: European Muslim birth rate is dropping fast. Women don't want to spend their lives making babies, they want jobs and lives too in Europe. The total takeover of Europe by hideous darkies is most likely further away than the hysterics believe.

AAAhmed46
8th February 09, 06:59 PM
I haven't read the whole thing, but I had to read significant chunks when I was in school (in translation of course). My main take was that the narrative suffered from being closer to historical than the bible is. The bible is the "cleaner" narrative for being less cluttered with real events.

Actually i got the opposite impression. I find the quran far less historical then the bible, the quran goes out of it's way to be pretty ambiguous historically, and uses so much damn flowery poetic language, it's a no brainier for me for it to be viewed metaphorically. This can be especially seen if read in arabic.

I used to think exactly what you did, before i read the whole thing.



As for that book: It isn't exactly controversial, ive yet to meet a muslim not on the internet actually bring it up or care.





Dear Reader,

People believe what they want to believe. That's something I've learned these past months during the controversy that has surrounded my book, "The Jewel of Medina." Some Muslims want to believe my book is "pornographic" or that it is disrespectful to Islam because they are used to racist treatment by non-Muslims. Even more disturbing to me, though, is the insistence by some bigoted, narrow-minded people that, because Muhammad supposedly married and had intercourse with A'isha when she was a young girl, he must have been a pedophile.

Some of the most disturbing hate mail I've received, in fact, comes from people who fear and loathe Islam and Muslims so much, they are enraged that I would choose a different interpretation of Islamic traditions and texts, one that is embraced by various scholars, including Muslims. Just recently, a racist radio host, apparently angry because I haven't agreed to be on his show, called me a "wack job" and a "nut" before going on a rant in which he called Muhammad and A'isha rude, insulting names. No Muslim has ever treated me this way.

Sherry Jones(author)

Virus
9th February 09, 04:16 AM
Ahmed do you believe Muhammed was a normal man or do you believe he talked to an angel who was relaying god's messages?

EuropIan
9th February 09, 05:16 AM
Stuff about islamofacation.



I'm saying that if this continues it could invariably produce a very massive countereaction of apartheid proportions.

Rather, I believe at some point that muslims will have to suck it up. Being an opressed minority, mixed with white guilt, they have enjoyed a disproportionate amount of influence. But inferring that this influence could invariably lead to litterary censorship, something European intellectuals parade around as a badge of honor, is highly unlikely. Ask the most liberal white guilt having French about banning voltaire because soem muslims might find it offensive and he will most likely laugh at you.

What could (and is happening) happen is the ghettofication of some neighbourhoods compounded in turn by potential enclaves amongst richer more xenophobic crackaz. And when 2 opposed cultures become entrenched in the same area, bad things can happen. Which is what I think you are concerned about.

danno
9th February 09, 07:04 AM
this whole thing is getting a lot more attention than it deserves. muslim outrage in general gets a lot more attention than it deserves.

Virus
9th February 09, 07:27 AM
What could (and is happening) happen is the ghettofication of some neighbourhoods compounded in turn by potential enclaves amongst richer more xenophobic crackaz. And when 2 opposed cultures become entrenched in the same area, bad things can happen. Which is what I think you are concerned about.

You've made some good points. The thing that I am concerned about regarding Islam is that it's not just a small handful of crazies that are supportive of groups like al-Quaeda and it's not just a small handful of crazies that relish the thought of living in an Islamic Europe.

EuropIan
9th February 09, 07:55 AM
Are you talking about hizb ut tahrir? because they are a joke as a political party.

Mostly there for sensationalism.

Virus
9th February 09, 08:59 AM
I'm not familiar with that party Ian GR, but thanks for bringing it up, I'll look into it later.

I'm talking about increasing numbers of young Muslims in the West who say they want to live under Sharia law.

Only fringe crazies? The Policy Exchange's study on Muslim attitudes in the UK demonstrated that 31% of British Muslims believe that apostasy from Islam should carry the death penalty. 61% believe homosexuality should be outlawed. 51% believe that Muslim women should be prevented from marrying non-Muslims and 39% believe that Sharia should not be re-interpreted according to western values.

The problem is that we have to talk about Islam as it is, not as we wish it to be. The best method discovering what Muslims actually think is to go to the studies.

I feel that people are grossly underestimating the extent of fundamentalism within the Muslim community because they form their opinions through polite chit-chat with thier friends and local Muslim greengrocers. This yields no useful information.

Source:
http://www.policyexchange.org.uk/images/libimages/246.pdf

EuropIan
9th February 09, 12:29 PM
I'm not familiar with that party Ian GR, but thanks for bringing it up, I'll look into it later.

I'm talking about increasing numbers of young Muslims in the West who say they want to live under Sharia law.


They miss home. left side minority pandering gives them some stuff, such as sharia divorce courts (lol). However, other stuff like female circumcision and forced marriages is being heavily monitored because of xenophobia, you seem to neglect just how goddamned racist most Europeans are (commenly the cold shoulder kind).



Only fringe crazies? The Policy Exchange's study on Muslim attitudes in the UK demonstrated that 31% of British Muslims believe that apostasy from Islam should carry the death penalty. 61% believe homosexuality should be outlawed. 51% believe that Muslim women should be prevented from marrying non-Muslims and 39% believe that Sharia should not be re-interpreted according to western values.

The problem is that we have to talk about Islam as it is, not as we wish it to be. The best method discovering what Muslims actually think is to go to the studies.






However, there is also considerable diversity
amongst Muslims, with many adopting
a more secular approach to their religion.
The majority of Muslims feel they have as
much, if not more, in common with non-
Muslims in Britain as with Muslims
abroad. There is clearly a conflict within
British Islam between a moderate majority
that accepts the norms of Western democracy
and a growing minority that does not.
For these reasons, we should be wary of
treating the entire Muslim population as a
monolith with special needs that are different
to the rest of the population






I feel that people are grossly underestimating the extent of fundamentalism within the Muslim community because they form their opinions through polite chit-chat with thier friends and local Muslim greengrocers. This yields no useful information.


They can't be trusted, got it.
UND SIE NEHMEN UND NEHMEN UND NEHMEN


There are other problems with painting this picture..

Such as treating the european continitent as a single unified minority appeasement factory when many countries in Europe have very stringent immigration policies, the sense of alianation actually experienced by the original guest workers in the 70s and how that painted a picture and a lands filled with milk and honey with cold cold inhabitents.

Saying OMFG ISLAMFACISM IS NEXT BIG THING IN EUROPE is highly exagerrating the truth and makes you seem abit alarmist.

Zendetta
9th February 09, 12:41 PM
I suspect for muslims in most countries that's probably true.

Most of the folks charged with Hate Crimes these days are Latinos trying to ethnically cleanse their neighborhoods of Black People.

Fixed.

HappyOldGuy
9th February 09, 01:09 PM
Not Fixed.
Don't confuse most newsworthy with most common. Unless you think LA is the world.

Zendetta
9th February 09, 01:52 PM
No, that's what LA people think. I think LA is the center of Dante's Inferno.

HappyOldGuy
9th February 09, 04:02 PM
No, that's what LA people think. I think LA is the center of Dante's Inferno.

LA is the outer layer. Irvine is the inner pit.

Cullion
9th February 09, 06:14 PM
Presumably neither of you have been to Bracknell.

Virus
10th February 09, 03:26 AM
you seem to neglect just how goddamned racist most Europeans are (commenly the cold shoulder kind).

The Pew study finds that;


The poll finds little evidence of a general rise in anti-immigration sentiment. With the continuing exception of Germany, majorities in the European countries surveyed say it is a "good thing" that people from the Middle East and North Africa came to work in their countries.

I'm sorry but this data doesn't support your contention that most Europeans are racist.

Besides, is this relevant to the discussion on Islamic extremism? Are you arguing that European racism is making some Muslims want to kill apostates and jail people for being gay?

Steve
10th February 09, 04:32 AM
Virus, do you believe that living in Europe adds to or detracts from your familiarity to how Europe is? Because you are awfully far away to judge.

Virus
10th February 09, 05:03 AM
Steve, either what I say is true or it isn't. Where I live is irrelevant.

EuropIan
10th February 09, 01:35 PM
The Pew study finds that;



I'm sorry but this data doesn't support your contention that most Europeans are racist.

Besides, is this relevant to the discussion on Islamic extremism? Are you arguing that European racism is making some Muslims want to kill apostates and jail people for being gay?
Here's the thing you might not realize: in Europe, Islam has a racial identity imprented on it as a religion. This makes discussions about Islam in Europe in part about racism in Europe. Luckily I have a report in hand as well to help me out:

http://eumc.europa.eu/eumc/material/pub/muslim/Manifestations_EN.pdf

As always, measuring opinions and general sentiment through interviews et al can be misleading, so lets look at some hard facts and talk about other good indicators of discrimination: housing and income rates.
As I'm sure you know, European muslims, as a whole, are below average income and in general live more often in what could resemble ghettoes. This is what I was talking about with the "cold shoulder" racism.

No, I am not "arguing that European racism is making some Muslims want to kill apostates and jail people for being gay" because that's dumb. However, I would like to point out that the connection between discrimination of a minority, and the strong counter-cultural identity that is closely tied to a religion, leads to things such as religious fanaticism and zealotry.

But you can't possibly imply a sinister Islamo-European revolution conspiracy from this. Which is what many right-wing European poltical figures do.

Zendetta
10th February 09, 02:26 PM
As I'm sure you know, European muslims, as a whole, are below average income and in general live more often in what could resemble ghettoes. This is what I was talking about with the "cold shoulder" racism.

I dispute the assertion that all such discrepancies are the result of discrimination.

More to the point, low income and ghetto isolation are probably what any immigrant group in any country can expect until it does the hard work of assimilating into the host culture.

(heading off the straw men at the pass: I'm not meaning to imply that islamic immigrants can't or won't assimilate, only noting that in europe they often seem to not assimilate.)

"Achievement Gap = Proof of Racism" is a common social misdiagnosis.

As to the "Euro Islam kinda equals Racial Identity" point: tell it to Shawarma and Poops Loops. They had a hard time hearing it from me.

Cullion
10th February 09, 02:30 PM
As I'm sure you know, European muslims, as a whole, are below average income and in general live more often in what could resemble ghettoes.

I certainly dispute that you can automatically draw a conclusion of 'European racism' from this. Sometimes a community having a lower standard of living occurs because their cultural norms are in some way dysfunctional relative to the host population.

Virus
10th February 09, 03:40 PM
Extremism is more common amongst educated, middle class Muslims, not working class.

Shawarma
10th February 09, 04:20 PM
That's interesting, except no, no it isn't. Hardline adherence to religion has always been and will always be primarily something found among the poor and uneducated.

Zendetta
10th February 09, 04:24 PM
Yeah, but the poor and uneducated typically just want to herd their goats and be left alone.

Its the College boy who wants to change the world and lead the oppressed goat herders into a new age of shits and giggles that actually does a lot of the organizing and strategizing for terrorist orgs.

HappyOldGuy
10th February 09, 04:49 PM
There is a cause and effect problem there though. Is having a college education the cause of being an extremist, or the cause of being a leader among extremists. I suspect both actually, but that's just gut level.

Cullion
10th February 09, 07:05 PM
I think you guys are confusing 'terrorist cell members' with 'dudes who throw rocks at the police'.

HappyOldGuy
10th February 09, 07:18 PM
I think you guys are confusing 'terrorist cell members' with 'dudes who throw rocks at the police'.

Have you read the 9/11 bios?

http://www.historycommons.org/context.jsp?item=a80s90smiddleclass

That was about 50 years worth of higher educaiton piloting those planes.

Cullion
10th February 09, 07:20 PM
Yes. They aren't the guys who throw bricks at the police in the inner cities of the UK or Paris.
See?

HappyOldGuy
10th February 09, 07:23 PM
Okay, I thought the thread had drifted, since I don't usually call those folks extremists. But given that it was virus, he might.

Cullion
10th February 09, 07:25 PM
The European political elite are more scared of angry crowds in their capital cities than they are of James Bond doomsday plots.

Truculent Sheep
10th February 09, 07:49 PM
Presumably neither of you have been to Bracknell.

I have. [SHUDDER!]


The European political elite are more scared of angry crowds in their capital cities than they are of James Bond doomsday plots.

Plus ça change...

Phrost
10th February 09, 11:29 PM
The European political elite are more scared of angry crowds in their capital cities than they are of James Bond doomsday plots.

Michael Moore seems to agree with you.

Yes, I finally got around to watching Sicko.

EuropIan
11th February 09, 04:59 AM
I dispute the assertion that all such discrepancies are the result of discrimination.

More to the point, low income and ghetto isolation are probably what any immigrant group in any country can expect until it does the hard work of assimilating into the host culture.

(heading off the straw men at the pass: I'm not meaning to imply that islamic immigrants can't or won't assimilate, only noting that in europe they often seem to not assimilate.)

"Achievement Gap = Proof of Racism" is a common social misdiagnosis.

As to the "Euro Islam kinda equals Racial Identity" point: tell it to Shawarma and Poops Loops. They had a hard time hearing it from me.





I certainly dispute that you can automatically draw a conclusion of 'European racism' from this. Sometimes a community having a lower standard of living occurs because their cultural norms are in some way dysfunctional relative to the host population.

I knew I should put in a "might lead to". I'm pretty sure the both of you acknowledge it is a factor though.

As always, it's really hard to use the "Europe as a whole"-thing, Skandinavia is mostly racist, Britain is less so, The Mediterranian countries are kinda racist, Switzerland is somewhere along the middle etc etc.. So I guess I should have stated some of Europe



Its the College boy who wants to change the world and lead the oppressed goat herders into a new age of shits and giggles that actually does a lot of the organizing and strategizing for terrorist orgs.

Same goes for the extreme left wingers. Lots of planning, most of the time nothing, some of the time bad stuff. I am for the most part unfazed.

Virus
11th February 09, 06:32 AM
That's interesting, except no, no it isn't. Hardline adherence to religion has always been and will always be primarily something found among the poor and uneducated.

In the Muslim world, this does not appear to be so:


A poll conducted by the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research (PCPSR) in 2001 among 1,357 adults in the West Bank and Gaza tested the hypothesis that poverty or low levels of education influence attitudes regarding political violence and found that support for terrorism against Israeli civilians was even more common among professionals than among laborers (43.3 vs. 34.6 percent) and more common among those with secondary education than among illiterate respondents (39.4 vs. 32.3 percent) (Krueger and Maleckova 2002). This is consistent with Sageman's (2004) finding that 94 of 132 (71 percent) of Muslim terrorists had at least some col- lege education, and 57 of 134 (43 percent) were professionals, although his study is
Victoroff / THE MIND OF THE TERRORIST 9 biased toward leaders. More important, Krueger and Maleckova (2002) also tested how economic status and education compared with actual participation in political violence: comparing 129 Hezbollah fighters ages fifteen to thirty-eight who died in action between 1982 and 1994 with members of the general Lebanese population of the same age range, the poverty rate was similar (28 percent among fighters vs. 33 per- cent in the population), but fighters were significantly more likely to have attended secondary school (33 vs. 23 percent). These findings are not consistent with theories tying political violence to poverty and lack of education

Source: The Mind of the Terrorist: A Review and Critique of Psychological Approaches. The Journal of Conflict Resolution, Vol. 49, No. 1 (Feb., 2005), pp. 3-42

There are limitations to this data but I'm afraid I don't consider your assertion that Islamic fundamentalism "always is and always will be" more common amongst the poor and uneducated justified. There is evidence that this is the case amongst American Christians but the reverse seems to be true in Islam.

Cullion
11th February 09, 02:24 PM
Geert has been banned from visiting the UK by our Home Secretary. It's probably illegal under EU law to do that.

Phrost
11th February 09, 02:48 PM
Your country is run by pussies. Bring back Thatcher, thanks.

Shawarma
11th February 09, 02:51 PM
In the Muslim world, this does not appear to be so:



Source: The Mind of the Terrorist: A Review and Critique of Psychological Approaches. The Journal of Conflict Resolution, Vol. 49, No. 1 (Feb., 2005), pp. 3-42

There are limitations to this data but I'm afraid I don't consider your assertion that Islamic fundamentalism "always is and always will be" more common amongst the poor and uneducated justified. There is evidence that this is the case amongst American Christians but the reverse seems to be true in Islam.
Virus, your article mentions Pally terrorism against Israelis. Palestinean violence against Israelis is not neccesarily religiously motivated. Nationalism, racism and "those kikes are sitting on our land!"-ism has more to do with it than the religion itself, if you ask me.

And what is a "Muslim terrorist?" Are we talking about someone blowing up a schoolbus in Jerusalem because they believe Allah tells them all Jews are unclean or somebody setting off an IED in Ramallah because he wants the fucking Yanks out of his country who just happens to be Muslim? The article does not destinguish between different KINDS of Muslim terrorist and is thus of little use.

I do however think it's quite likely, as someone said, that the more highly educated Muslims are the ones who're likely to become politically involved in spreading fundamentalism by force or other means. Remember how obnoxious the political-fags were in your college days? I guess that goes for Muslim politicals as well. That point is granted. But you really can't get me to believe that the rank-and-file of suicide bombers, IED blastaz and Pushtun child rapists with AKs are highly educated.

Shawarma
11th February 09, 02:52 PM
Your country is run by pussies. Bring back Thatcher, thanks.
Yeah, she'd bring them golliwogs back in line right soon!

(current Brit political humah)

Cullion
11th February 09, 03:02 PM
Your country is run by pussies. Bring back Thatcher, thanks.

There are no Thatcher-like options standing for election any more.

HappyOldGuy
11th February 09, 03:06 PM
That's what you get when you outlaw recreational testosterone use.

Phrost
11th February 09, 03:10 PM
And there must be some correlation here as well since we're turning into a country full of leaky vaginas ourselves.

Truculent Sheep
11th February 09, 03:17 PM
Geert has been banned from visiting the UK by our Home Secretary. It's probably illegal under EU law to do that.

Bitterly ironic, given some of the arse-scrapings (http://www.hurryupharry.org/2009/02/11/banning-extremists/) the tards at the Home Office have willingly let in.

Also, the Home Secretary, Jackie Smith, is a national (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/4582415/MPs-condemn-rules-which-let-Jacqui-Smith-claim-for-staying-at-sisters-home.html) joke (http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23470392-details/It%27s+normal+to+wear+a+stab-proof+vest+to+tour+my+constituency/article.do). The dumb bitch is also my local MP. 'Thought I'd share that with you...

Virus
11th February 09, 03:47 PM
And there must be some correlation here as well since we're turning into a country full of leaky vaginas ourselves.

I read an article, which I forgot to post, which said that the Muslim problem seem to be specific to Europe. It said that we take it for granted that someone from any contrary can call themselves "American" but people don't really feel anyone can be "Dutch" or "Danish". The US doesn't seem to have Muslim enclaves where women can't go out unless accompanied by a male relative (including school) and are forced into marriage.


Virus, your article mentions Pally terrorism against Israelis. Palestinean violence against Israelis is not neccesarily religiously motivated. Nationalism, racism and "those kikes are sitting on our land!"-ism has more to do with it than the religion itself, if you ask me.

And what is a "Muslim terrorist?" Are we talking about someone blowing up a schoolbus in Jerusalem because they believe Allah tells them all Jews are unclean or somebody setting off an IED in Ramallah because he wants the fucking Yanks out of his country who just happens to be Muslim? The article does not destinguish between different KINDS of Muslim terrorist and is thus of little use.

I do however think it's quite likely, as someone said, that the more highly educated Muslims are the ones who're likely to become politically involved in spreading fundamentalism by force or other means. Remember how obnoxious the political-fags were in your college days? I guess that goes for Muslim politicals as well. That point is granted. But you really can't get me to believe that the rank-and-file of suicide bombers, IED blastaz and Pushtun child rapists with AKs are highly educated.

I agree with the stated limitations to the data. Regarding Palestinian suicide bombers, against conventional wisdom as it is, research shows that Palestinian suicide bombers are overwhelmingly middle class and educated. I don't have time to search for the references again, I'll do it tonight but I have posted them previously.

Cullion
11th February 09, 03:55 PM
And there must be some correlation here as well since we're turning into a country full of leaky vaginas ourselves.

It all starts when Dad is too busy to go to the PTA meetings so boxing and rugby get taken off the school sports curriculum by bored neurotic soccer moms and quiche-eating pussified males who don't have real jobs.

You'll know when it's time to break out the weapons cache once they ban your kids from wrestling or playing American Football.

AAAhmed46
11th February 09, 06:41 PM
Japanese kamikaze pilots were also highly educated. Didn't stop them. They were religiously inspired but politically motivated. Eerily similar circumstances right here.

EuropIan
11th February 09, 08:29 PM
The Japanese at the time had a hard time distinguishing between patriotism and religion.

This is slightly different, think assassinations against Tzars in Russia ca.1850-1900

AAAhmed46
11th February 09, 08:48 PM
Political outrage and religious obligation are often mixed up today among Muslims. But i see what your saying.

Cullion
11th February 09, 08:53 PM
The muslims have no emporer who can make a truce on their behalf. As far as I can tell they aren't all loyal to some central living authority.

AAAhmed46
11th February 09, 09:21 PM
No, but they get mad at some real or percieved political injustice, then think it's their religious obligation to fight it, and then contradict the teachings by fighting through suicide. There is some ideological confusion there.

It may not be the same in regards to HOW it's mixed up, but it's there.

Virus
11th February 09, 10:02 PM
Injustices like criticizing Islam.

HappyOldGuy
11th February 09, 10:50 PM
Injustices like criticizing Islam.

Or like landing a hellfire missle on their cousins house.

And then criticizing Islam.

Virus
11th February 09, 11:47 PM
Or like landing a hellfire missle on their cousins house.

And then criticizing Islam.

And how many missiles did Denmark and Holland fire on Syria, Iran and Lebanon?

Arhetton
11th February 09, 11:59 PM
you're either with us, or you're against us!

AAAhmed46
12th February 09, 12:11 AM
And how many missiles did Denmark and Holland fire on Syria, Iran and Lebanon?

Government organized. Im not the only one who believes that. So does As’ad Abukhalil(athiest poli-sci professor) Margolis and many others. In syria in particular, you will be killed for acting against the government's will.

Also, you assume all extremism is the same. The palistinian suicide bombers are different from Al-queerda despite the fact that people want to say they are the same. Al-Queerda criticized Hamas for taking part in the elections, and the fact it started to go more left.

Hezbollah has christian members in it, yet often neo-cons and militant libertarians will say it's a 'terrorist' organization, it's a shiite nationalistic organization.

While certainly there is al-queerda in Iraq, alot of the insurgency isn't. Notice how many of the sunni's, once militants standing against america decided to turn against the extremists because well....their extreme. And now they have become more friendly with american troops.


So.....who is killing who for insulting their religion? Osama bin laden is bitching more about american presence in Saudi Arabia, atleast initiially, read his 2002 letter, it's lots of bitching. Yes there is durka durka, but not much on blasphemy.

AAAhmed46
12th February 09, 02:13 AM
also, could you imagine what would happen if there was a shit load of politicians who think the quran is like mien kamf? Even if it was true, it would be used as justification to strip people of their rights.

You see the quran as your typical athiest sees the bible and the torah, you look at it the same way.

But geert Wilders is not, and will marginalize muslims, infact thats exactly what he wants. He has made that no secret.

He isn't saying there is some violent versus in the quran, he isn't saying it's slightly more violent then other faiths.

He's saying that the quran is like Mein kamf. Think about it.

In your previous posts, ive read that you also acknowledge violence in the old testamate and claimed you viewed it in no more the same light as the quran.

Well this isn't what geert wants. This should be obvious to you, and what his motives are.

Virus
12th February 09, 02:33 AM
Government organized. Im not the only one who believes that. So does As’ad Abukhalil(athiest poli-sci professor) Margolis and many others. In syria in particular, you will be killed for acting against the government's will.

Demonstrations also broke out in London in which Muslims called for death. Did the British government organize that?



Also, you assume all extremism is the same. The palistinian suicide bombers are different from Al-queerda despite the fact that people want to say they are the same.

No you assume that I assume that all extremism is the same. I am aware that al-Qaeda don't see eye-to-eye with Hamas.



Hezbollah has christian members in it, yet often neo-cons and militant libertarians will say it's a 'terrorist' organization, it's a shiite nationalistic organization.

It has a militant wing that is thought to have comitted acts generally regarded as terrorism. How is this relevant to the discussion?


While certainly there is al-queerda in Iraq, alot of the insurgency isn't. Notice how many of the sunni's, once militants standing against america decided to turn against the extremists because well....their extreme. And now they have become more friendly with american troops.


Your point being?


So.....who is killing who for insulting their religion?

Muslims are killing anyone who insults their religion, including other Muslims. There were no Mormon riots over Orgasmo. What would Christians do if word got out that somebody called a Teddy Bear Jesus?




Osama bin laden is bitching more about american presence in Saudi Arabia, atleast initiially, read his 2002 letter, it's lots of bitching. Yes there is durka durka, but not much on blasphemy.

American presence in Saudi Arabia is blasphemy. Infidel troops on Muslim holy ground. Ahmed with respect, most of your post is not news to me and has nothing to do with the preceding discussion.

If I may, can I ask a question about a topic which received curiously little comment. Why do 31% of British Muslims believe that apostates from Islam should be killed? Do you agree that 31% cannot be dismissed as a fringe of crackpots? Keep in mind that we are talking about murder for nothing.

Zendetta
12th February 09, 02:36 AM
There were no Mormon riots over Orgasmo*.

!!!

Dude do you have any fucking clue at all about the history of the Mormon Church**?

* great movie, btw
** that didn't come from South Park

AAAhmed46
12th February 09, 03:12 AM
Demonstrations also broke out in London in which Muslims called for death. Did the British government organize that?
death of who? Rushdie or the danish cartoons? Nothing got torched in london. If your talking about pictures with people holding signs, then well, lots has been photoshopped, we talked about it on sociocide before.




No you assume that I assume that all extremism is the same. I am aware that al-Qaeda don't see eye-to-eye with Hamas.
Okay then.




It has a militant wing that is thought to have comitted acts generally regarded as terrorism. How is this relevant to the discussion?
Only that many neo-cons and athiest neo-cons often will talk as if all violence in the middle east is motivated by the same things.



Your point being?
Only that alot of so called 'islamic' violence isn't done islamically, and the fact taht al-queerda isn't exactly popular.




Muslims are killing anyone who insults their religion, including other Muslims. There were no Mormon riots over Orgasmo. What would Christians do if word got out that somebody called a Teddy Bear Jesus?
What country? Can't in America or the west because they will have legal repercussions. And lets face it, right now christianity and christians isn't exactly threatened by such things. Back when the muslim world had great power, people have been known to insult mohammed and the quran and walk away with their head intact. Why? No one was uptight back then.

After 9/11, if you had gone into the streets of texas and said "america sucks'' do you think no one would sit and just take it? People were scared.

Yet do it now, or before 9/11, and no one would react to strongly. Scratch that, people are still feeling threatened, so you could get shot for insulting country. But pre-9/11, how do you think people would have reacted to insulting country?







American presence in Saudi Arabia is blasphemy. Infidel troops on Muslim holy ground. Ahmed with respect, most of your post is not news to me and has nothing to do with the preceding discussion.

If I may, can I ask a question about a topic which received curiously little comment. Why do 31% of British Muslims believe that apostates from Islam should be killed? Do you agree that 31% cannot be dismissed as a fringe of crackpots? Keep in mind that we are talking about murder for nothing.

Apostacy? Or apostacy and activily fighting against the community?

In that case, Yes, a fairly large portion of muslims do believe that under islamic law apostacy should be punished by death. Doesn't mean it's true, doesn't mean they support terrorism and the death of innocents and non-muslims. Hell it doesn't even mean they support the existence of a religious government. There are lots of muslim apostates, many openly apostating in their own countries. No one has killed them yet.

If the question was intended to talk for apostacy alone, one can argue this:

20% is like america's evangelical christian movement. Not a minority, but not a majority. Ask them all sorts of questions, they will come off and nuts and that jesus is lord of Iraq and the rapture will happen.

Doesn't mean they will act on it.

Also, how was the question worded? The hadith it's based off of says that apostacy means death if it's accompanied by treason and actively fighting against the ummah. Was that part of the question?
it's like the whole gay thing. Ask a hardcore evangelist in the midwest what the bible and old testamate says about gays, they would probably say to kill them. Hell shirly and fred phelps support that. But the ywon't,

Doesn't mean they will actually do it, or have any designs to do it.

If you look at my Asad vs manji thread, i talk a bit about it.


What is the soarce of this poll?

And do you have any muslim friends? You will say it's not relevant, but i believe it is, maybe he's a dick or maybe you can ask him. If your basing your opinions solely on random readings?

Virus
12th February 09, 05:33 AM
death of who?


See for yourself:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_kyNIevsIs



Only that many neo-cons and athiest neo-cons often will talk as if all violence in the middle east is motivated by the same things.

Good for them. Am I a neo-con?




Only that alot of so called 'islamic' violence isn't done islamically,

But there is Islamic violence. Correct? I'm sure you aren't going to try and convince me the murder of Theo Van Gough was all about politics.



and the fact taht al-queerda isn't exactly popular.


"Jihadist appeal is very strong in Europe as well. Benjamin and Simon cite a Sunday Times (London) poll that found that an astonishing 40 percent of British Muslims supported bin Ladens attacks on the United States."

Source: Review: Al-Qaeda as an Adversary: Do We Understand Our Enemy? World Politics, Vol. 56, No. 1 (Oct., 2003), pp. 139-163


Can't in America or the west because they will have legal repercussions.

How many people do you think would call for the execution of someone for calling a Teddy Jesus?



And lets face it, right now christianity and christians isn't exactly threatened by such things.

Yes, America sure is lucky to not be threatened by the horrible scourge of teddy bear namers.



Back when the muslim world had great power, people have been known to insult mohammed and the quran and walk away with their head intact. Why? No one was uptight back then.

Ok so if you go to Saudi Arabia where Islam couldn't possibly have more power then the locals should be comfortable with people criticizing Islam. Yeah. That's about as likely as a three-way with Brittney Spears and her sister.



After 9/11, if you had gone into the streets of texas and said "america sucks'' do you think no one would sit and just take it? People were scared.

People ridicule America on Australian and British TV on almost a weekly basis. We have cartoons in the paper ridiculing America. There were articles critical of America right after 9/11. Nobody called for the beheading of John Pilger and no riots broke out in front of the Australian embassy.



Yet do it now, or before 9/11, and no one would react to strongly. Scratch that, people are still feeling threatened, so you could get shot for insulting country. But pre-9/11, how do you think people would have reacted to insulting country?

See above. Newspapers routinely criticize America, comedy shows routinely ridicule Americans as obese, ignorant, loudmouth fatheads. Nobody walked into Syria, Lebanon, Egypt ect and said "Islam sucks", nobody would be stupid enough to commit suicide like that. It was printed in a newspaper in a democratic country that has free-speech and Islamic governments, Muslim groups, Islamic clerics threw a violent tantrum and people ended up being killed.



Apostacy? Or apostacy and activily fighting against the community?

Apostasy as in, "I was Muslim and now I'm not". You know what the question means, don't try and create wriggle room for yourself.



In that case, Yes, a fairly large portion of muslims do believe that under islamic law apostacy should be punished by death. Doesn't mean it's true, doesn't mean they support terrorism and the death of innocents and non-muslims.

Apostates are innocent.


Hell it doesn't even mean they support the existence of a religious government.

You're right. It only strongly suggests they do.

And 28% said they would prefer to live under Sharia Law and 39% of them said that it shouldn't be re-interpreted. So some Muslims DO want Brittan to return to floggings and hand lopping.



Also, how was the question worded?

“The following is a list of laws that are defined in most scholarly interpretations of sharia law. Please say if you personally agree or disagree with the law mentioned”

That Muslim conversion is forbidden and punishable by death."




There are lots of muslim apostates, many openly apostating in their own countries. No one has killed them yet.

Anecdote. And yes, people are killed by vigilante Islamic gangs for apostacy.

see: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article510589.ece

and the section on "Apostasy in the recent past"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam


If the question was intended to talk for apostacy alone, one can argue this:

20% is like america's evangelical christian movement. Not a minority, but not a majority. Ask them all sorts of questions, they will come off and nuts and that jesus is lord of Iraq and the rapture will happen.

Doesn't mean they will act on it.

Actually fundamentalist evangelicals are a majority, not a minority. America is like a Christian Iran in many respects. And yes, they do operate on the basis of their beliefs, such as their support for Israel which they believe is going to bring about Judgment Day.

Please view at your convenience;
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull&cid=1207649974559



It's like the whole gay thing. Ask a hardcore evangelist in the midwest what the bible and old testamate says about gays, they would probably say to kill them.


It's your guess that they would say that. Support it with evidence. It is true that most American Christians believe that bum fun is immoral, but they still support anti-discrimination laws.


In terms of support of public policies, according to the same 2001 study, 76% of the general public think that there should be laws to protect gay and lesbian people from job discrimination, 74% from housing discrimination, 73% for inheritance rights, 70% support health and other employee benefits for domestic partners, 68% support social security benefits, and 56% support GL people openly serving in the military. 73% favor sexual orientation being included in the hate crimes statutes. 39% support same-sex marriage, while 47% support civil unions, and 46% support adoption rights.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Societal_attitudes_toward_homosexuality#Violence


If you look at my Asad vs manji thread, i talk a bit about it.

I noticed that thread today. I'll have to set aside some time for that, looks involved.


What is the soarce of this poll?

As stated, the source was: Munira Mirza, Abi Senthilkumaran and Zein Ja'far. (2007) Living apart together. British Muslims and the paradox of multiculturalism. Policy Exchange. London.

Available from the Policy Exchange website.


And do you have any muslim friends? You will say it's not relevant,

You know me too well Ahmed. Yes, I will say it's not relevant.



but i believe it is, maybe he's a dick or maybe you can ask him. If your basing your opinions solely on random readings?

No. I don't believe that's correct.

AAAhmed46
12th February 09, 06:55 AM
Got to give you credit.

Your consistent.

I discussed the apostate issue in the other thread before you brought it up here. It's one point where i agree with Manji in the fact that there is a problem.

AAAhmed46
12th February 09, 06:57 AM
Wait....

Those of you who signed the petition...

You do it in the name of free speech.

But i now remembered, re-read that Geert was the one who wanted to ban the quran and ban islam it self?

Isn't that stifling free speech?

So in the name of free speech, people are supporting and signing a petition to support a man who wants to stifle free speech?

Doesn't make much sense.

Where were the people supporting free speech when muslims acted against Geert and his attempts to bad free speech for muslims?


There IS a double standard.



I signed it. Tolerance for its own sake is idiotic.

We should never tolerate that which threatens liberty and the free exchange of ideas.


I don't know if your still following this thread Phrost, but were you aware of Geert's previous attempts to stifle free speech for the other side?

Craigypooh
12th February 09, 07:18 AM
But i now remembered, re-read that Geert was the one who wanted to ban the quran and ban islam it self?

Isn't that stifling free speech?

So in the name of free speech, people are supporting and signing a petition to support a man who wants to stifle free speech?

Doesn't make much sense.


But then the Quran and Islam bans people from saying and doing certain things, so they don't support free speech either. So that's a triple negative which I think makes it OK to sign the petition again.

Of course you can support someones right to free speech, while still disagreeing with what they say.

Would it make sense to support free speech only for those people you agree with?

AAAhmed46
12th February 09, 07:33 AM
So, compared to the old testament(torah) new testament, how does the quran compare when it comes to 'stifling' free speech that should have it banned in particular compared to these texts? IT certainly says to not be friends with those who insult religion. But nothing on killing or actual censorship.

Notice how i didn't comment on this issue until i really found out about this. Atfirst i saw no problem supporting it.

But now i see hypocrisy in it after looking at Geerts previous track record.


Geert was trying to BAN freespeech by virtue of banning an entire religion and it's text. That requires expression.

It's hypocritical because when he wanted to ban the views of muslims, no one said a damn thing, but when the same thing happens to him, people come out of the woodwork.

I don't care that he believes whatever he does, i didn't even really TALK about him until now, until i realized some of what his past actions are.

Sign the petition if you want, but if he tries to pull this shit on muslims(ie banning religious expression and religious texts, which is like banning a movie or book) then it would be consistent to speak out against him.


In canada, pro-choice groups in universities are banning pro-lifers. We know that often to be pro-choice is often very 'leftist'. The same people who promote freedom of expression. One girl who was part of the pro-life movement and palistinian movement wanted to have the right to use the word 'isreal' and 'apartied' together.



Yet she supports banning discussions with pro-life moements.


Whats the relevance to this discussion?

This girl was perfectly content to cite freedom of expression as a right to fit her agenda. But the moment it contridicts her right of free expression, she tries to censor.



Same thing happening here.

Geert wanted to stifle free expression for others, yet will yell 'FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION" when it suites his needs.

Phrost
12th February 09, 08:22 AM
And in that case he was wrong for it. In this case, he's right.

Islam is fucking stupid. And hundreds of thousands of Muslims, if not millions, would try to murder me if they were aware I expressed such a thought.

Religion is fucking stupid, but Islam is the retarded cousin you try to keep out of the way when company comes over. Only in this case, it's a retard with loads of money, a penchant for biting people, and a massive sense of entitlement to walk around doing so with impunity.

Arhetton
12th February 09, 08:28 AM
theres a difference between defending free speech and supporting what someone else has to say.

You're defending their right to say it, not the content.

danno
12th February 09, 08:29 AM
a source i just looked at said there are 446,500 muslims in australia. i'm not aware of any large scale social problems or murders of those who disagree with them. i've seen people on television say that muslims should be shipped back to the middle east and they weren't killed.

Arhetton
12th February 09, 08:32 AM
yeah but "moderate believers" are fundamentalist enablers. base of support and all that.

AAAhmed46
12th February 09, 08:33 AM
http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=1275285

Toronto mosque offers 'detox' for extremists

12-step program targets al-Qaeda sympathizers

Stewart Bell, National Post Published: Wednesday, February 11, 2009
More On This Story



Mohammed Shaikh is a mediator, former police chaplain and community activist who has worked on youth crime prevention and conflict resolution.Peter J. Thompson, National PostMohammed Shaikh is a mediator, former police chaplain and community activist who has worked on youth crime prevention and conflict resolution.

A Toronto mosque is offering a "12-step extremist detox program" for radical Muslims that its director says is the first of its kind in Canada.

The Specialized De-radicalization Intervention program is intended to provide "treatment and counselling" to young Muslims sympathetic to the al-Qaeda ideology.

The Muslim leaders behind the program say they want to help parents concerned about the radicalization of their children and also assist courts dealing with terrorism-related cases.

"As Canadians of Muslim faith, it is our ardent desire to become leaders in the championing of anti-terror values," said a document outlining the program, which is based on the idea that extremism can be fought theologically, by challenging the dark extremist vision with an alternative interpretation of Islam.

Among those the mosque is hoping to counsel are one of the Toronto 18 and Omar Khadr, the 22-year-old Canadian accused of killing a U. S. soldier in Afghanistan.

The lawyers representing Mr. Khadr were to announce this morning a proposal to ensure he is "rehabilitated and reintegrated into Canadian life" if he is repatriated to Canada from Guantanamo Bay.

The cases of the Toronto 18 group, which allegedly plotted attacks in Ontario, and Ottawaborn Momin Khawaja, convicted for his role in a British terror group, have raised concerns in Canada about homegrown terrorism.

Although only a small minority of Canadian Muslims is attracted to violent extremism, the government calls it a "serious problem" and a "direct and immediate threat to Canada." Canadian security agencies have been conducting "interventions" on a case-by-case basis, working with imams to help steer youths away from extremism.

But some parents don't want to involve the police and prefer to deal with the matter unofficially through the mosque, said Mohammed Shaikh, director of the Masjid el Noor mosque in Toronto, which devised the new program.

He said he is already working with youths, including a 12-year-old whose parents were concerned because he "speaks very negatively" about a particular group of people. Mr. Shaikh did not say which group.

"Our mosque is the only one that is working on these kind of programs," Mr. Shaikh said.

"We are the only ones who are professional mediators ... so it is good that we are in there and the youth seems to understand us."

Mr. Shaikh, a 56-year-old Indian-born Muslim, is a mediator, former police chaplain and community activist who has worked on youth crime prevention and conflict resolution.

He is also the father of Mubin Shaikh, who worked as an undercover agent for the Canadian Security Intelligence Service and RCMP during the 2005-2006 investigation of the Toronto 18 group.

But he said his son was not part of this de-radicalization program. The team consists of Mohammed Shaikh, Imam Ayub Mamoon, teacher and youth worker Gary Simpson, Ahmed Amiruddin of the Ahlus Sunnah Foundation of Canada and Mohammad Robert Heft of Paradise Forever, a support group for converts.

The program has 12 steps, including: Allah, the Koran and Mohammad; the connections between Islam, Christianity and Judaism; other faiths; Canadian society; and countering extremism through education, public speaking and writing.

An important part of the program involves listening to the youths and talking about the damage caused by Islamist terrorist attacks such as the recent Mumbai massacre and the London bombings, Mr. Shaikh said.

"And we just want to encourage them to be faithful and do not take the law into your own hand, always try to build something rather than destroy something," he said.

After British Muslims bombed the London transit system in 2005, the U. K. introduced a program to fight radicalization; several other Western countries have done the same.

The radicalization of Muslims is a "priority issue" for Canada, according to a "secret" 2008 CSIS report recently released under the Access to Information Act.

It says radicalization is a result of such factors as parental influence, the efforts of charismatic spiritual leaders and anger over the perceived oppression of Muslims.

"Within the Islamist extremist community radicalized individuals are driven by the perception that Islam is under attack by the West and that they have a moral and religious obligation to defend their faith," the report says.

Mr. Shaikh agreed that some Islamic scholars are part of the problem. He said he had already met with some of them to talk about the damage they are causing and encourage them to tone down.

Faisal Mirza, a lawyer who represents a youth convicted for his role in the Toronto 18, said he could not comment on his client. But he said the program seemed consistent with the Canadian government's counter-radicalization objectives.

"Without commenting specifically on the case before the court, in my view, nuanced intervention programs designed to prevent any youth crime are a move in the right direction since they are consistent with the spirit and principles of youth criminal justice," he said.

"They certainly would better serve the public as compared to police investigations that may be perceived by members of the Muslim community to be complicit with the recruitment and indoctrination of the innocent," Mr. Mirza said.

---------

Masjid el Noor's 12-Step Extremist Detox Program:

1 Who is Allah: His Mercy to all.

2 Using verses from the Holy Koran that speak of peace and good conduct.

3 Who is Muhammad: His mercy, kind manner, humble attitude, wisdom, patience.

4 Using hadith: Commentaries that provide ethics and other moral training.

5 Using stories of Companions: A knowledge-based life of academic pursuit.

6 Stories from history: Contexts and underlying factors, not always glory of God.

7 Islamic scholarship: What it seeks for the individual to know, and how.

8 Abrahamic Faith: The interconnectedness of Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

9 Other faiths: Common ground, not fighting ground.

10 Open society of Canada: What it means for the majority (how to reconcile dogmatic idealism with pragmatic realism).

11 Seeing the whole as one: Global challenges affecting us all.

12 Advocacy: Actively countering extremist ideology through education, public speaking and writing.



.................................................. .................................................. .........................


Take a look at the imam who created this. Very conservative in his appearance.

AAAhmed46
12th February 09, 08:39 AM
And in that case he was wrong for it. In this case, he's right.

Islam is fucking stupid. And hundreds of thousands of Muslims, if not millions, would try to murder me if they were aware I expressed such a thought.

Religion is fucking stupid, but Islam is the retarded cousin you try to keep out of the way when company comes over. Only in this case, it's a retard with loads of money, a penchant for biting people, and a massive sense of entitlement to walk around doing so with impunity.

But it isn't even what your saying, all this shit about muslims gets so damn over blown.

So overblown that muslims started taking it seriously.

There is so much damn fear mongering.

Such as 'muslims are having babies and will take over the west and enforce sharia law!'

Fact is, someone born in the west adopts many of it's values. Even immigrants.


They don't even ask much. At most, pray five times a day. Fewer still ask for more.


Despite their popualarity, with the exception of Irshad Manji, most muslims are unaware of people like Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Sam Harris and many others. Many don't even know who hitchens is. Im talking religious muslims too.

But then we have things like "fitna'' coming out, and gets all muslims scared into a frenzy and they freak out.


Ill say it again, just how sensitive were americans after 9/11? If anyone said "america sucks'' on the streets, they'd probably get a beat down.

Would that have happened before?

This shit has gone on for nearly ten years, because no one in the muslim world has had a chance to calm down from the hysteria, more shit gets stirred up again and again.


Fact is too, even if islam is a satanic religion, people like Geert Wilders are counter productive.

Alot of foiled terrorist plots happen only because muslims decide to co-operate with authorities. Listen to interviews of those muslims who work as informants, they do not believe in the clash of civilization.

But if one pushes this belief, they could create a self-fulfilling prophesy.

The key to fighting terrorism is the muslims themselves. Freindly ties with muslims as a base is the key against terrorism.

Alienate that base, and the only way to win is genocide.

Infact, look at Iraq. Sunni's now working with americans. Suddenly far more success.


Do you think that if they stayed pissed off, the troop surge alone would do anything? It wouldn't.

If they were pissed off, if they believed the west looked down on everything they did, you think they would have become so much more friendly?

There is a book(saw it on the Daily show) called how to break a terrorist. The dude in the interview talked about how many terrorists they captured were angry for political reasons and believeed that no one respected their religion, a sense of inferority. He said when he developed a rapport with the captive terrorists, they were way more friendly and helpful.

Virus
12th February 09, 08:40 AM
In much of Europe Fascism isn't protected by freedom of expression on the grounds that it's a small price to pay to prevent a fourth Reich. He sees Islam as similar to fascism. I don't agree with his comparison. Fascism is far more sophisticated.

danno
12th February 09, 08:43 AM
yeah but "moderate believers" are fundamentalist enablers. base of support and all that.

you mean any amount of belief in islam enables extremists? i think virus might agree with that.

AAAhmed46
12th February 09, 08:49 AM
yeah but "moderate believers" are fundamentalist enablers. base of support and all that.

Do you honestly think terrorists talk openly about their beliefs and plans?

Arhetton
12th February 09, 08:59 AM
No, not any amount. If there is a population of ~500,000 people with a range of beliefs in islam, and I often assume the normal distribution for these kinds of thought experiments - I believe its 1.3% will be outside the upper 2 standard deviations (be the crazies- after all the opposite end will be the 'almost atheists'), or ~6500 people that are probably batshit crazy about islam.

I'd say due to the nature of religion (the fact it is institutionalized and organized) that these people are likely to run into each other. I mean, you like mixed martial arts, and you were able to find a school you like, a website you like etc.

Personally I don't think its much of a threat, I still think driving a car is likely more dangerous than a terrorist attack, and I don't think these people are particularly effective - I mean any terrorist with half a brain cell would probably be out lighting bushfires in the middle of summer (like the recent events in VIC). Mass deaths, property damage etc.

The thing that bothers me is just how silly the whole thing is. Can't these people learn that some of their 2000 year old notions about fashion, culture, social customs, bum secks etc are just silly? That the idea of a man in space looking down on earth as if it were a RTS game is dumb?

Arhetton
12th February 09, 09:04 AM
the thing is, there are religions in other parts of the world where the extremists are pleasant people - I can't remember the particular name, I will try to find it - a brand of buddhism or taoism I think, where the value given to life, all life, is sacred.

The extremists in that religion crawl along the ground with a small brush, brushing insects out of the way instead of killing them (by stepping on them).

The problem isn't really extremism, its the bad ideas. I've got a friend whos an extremist about food - won't eat animal products or anything with them in it. I don't have a problem with it.

I do have a problem with people who think a woman should be stoned to death for wearing a miniskirt.

AAAhmed46
12th February 09, 09:05 AM
It isn't as codified as you think, islam is probably one of the most decentralized religions in the world.

There is dispute on even what is cannonocal or what is a believer, who is a believer? Are jews and christians among those who believe or only the muslims? Some muslims, many believe most jews and christians who are rightious will see paradise.

While just as many say they will ultimatly go to hell when they die.


I do have a problem with people who think a woman should be stoned to death for wearing a miniskirt.
Even something like that is in dispute, if such a thing is punishable.

Though it applies for men as well(assuming one believes it is an inherent part of the faith) I remember seeing video in early 2000 about a man getting whipped by the taliban because his shorts were too high and thus too revealing. People always talk about how woman must dress in islam, not knowing men have a dress code and a mode of behavior that must be followed.

danno
12th February 09, 09:07 AM
I do have a problem with people who think a woman should be stoned to death for wearing a miniskirt.

so do i. if muslims were doing this en masse then i'd want them deported myself. but they're not.

danno
12th February 09, 09:09 AM
The thing that bothers me is just how silly the whole thing is. Can't these people learn that some of their 2000 year old notions about fashion, culture, social customs, bum secks etc are just silly? That the idea of a man in space looking down on earth as if it were a RTS game is dumb?

remember how i told you about my employer? reasonable, intelligent, talented, very nice guy. but somehow takes the bible quite literally. i haven't bothered trying to talk sense into him, and i don't want to.

AAAhmed46
12th February 09, 09:21 AM
That probably describes half the population of muslims as well. Thats why a poll can have 28% of them believing some wacky shit.

And most of america.


With canada, i find most canadians are agnostics or non-demonational christians(they believe in christ, but nothing else consistent with the church or even the bible)

Arhetton
12th February 09, 09:22 AM
ahmed, you could make an 'argument to diversity' or 'argument to moderate peoples' case for Islam, I'm sure it exists. I am an ex christian staunch atheist myself. I can't believe some of the crap I believed in and that other people continue to believe in. Personally, I see no merit in arguing about diversity or moderation, because I think people can have diverse beliefs and be moderate people (moral, salt of the earth types) without believing in religion. Think of the things they are depriving themself of! Philosophy! Ethics! Morality! Some people don't believe in evolution! Beautiful triumphs of the human mind and culture.

I'm aware of all of the nonsense between christians, I was one for a very long time. It has the same crap between catholics and protestants and anglicans and everyone who thinks they have the real _ing _un handed down from a wizard in space. I don't care about diversity of beliefs or religious lineage wars or any of that. At the core, it is silly, immature, and some of it plainly not compatible with modern liberal democracies.

AAAhmed46
12th February 09, 09:28 AM
It's all a matter of outlook really.

Who's to say one has to follow everything 'by the book'

Life is dynamic, it's natural for belief to be dynamic, as long as it allows for it to happen.

I was on the verge of becoming an athiest(i doubt i would have the same views as dawkins or the guys here) until i read up on muhammed Asad and Dr. Jeffery Lang and their view on islam and why they think it's valid compared to conservative thought. Both are ex-athiests, and have an intellectual view of religion.


In regards that one can view religion as dynamic, they can be compatible with western liberal thought, such as Ijtihad and what not. Every faith has some command or aspect that gives it room to evolve, like ijtihad.

Arhetton
12th February 09, 09:32 AM
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AAAhmed46
12th February 09, 09:35 AM
How does the fact the universe being billions of years contridict religion? How does the big bang contradict god?

Phrost
12th February 09, 10:30 AM
Fact is, someone born in the west adopts many of it's values. Even immigrants.

Bullshit. There is a significant problem with Muslim immigrants refusing to integrate into society, so much so that Denmark specifically requires viewing of a video of gays and tits as a part of the immigration process.



They don't even ask much. At most, pray five times a day. Fewer still ask for more.
It's absolutely shameful that in the year 2009 we still have people accepting of this behavior. Laying on the floor mumbling to yourself or imaginary beings is normally cause for psychiatric treatment. Except, of course, when Religion is used as the excuse.



There is a book(saw it on the Daily show) called how to break a terrorist. The dude in the interview talked about how many terrorists they captured were angry for political reasons and believeed that no one respected their religion, a sense of inferority. He said when he developed a rapport with the captive terrorists, they were way more friendly and helpful.
This is less because of the magical power of Ma-Ti's Heart ring, and more to do with the fact that the very essence of religion is to keep people ignorant and separated from reality.

EuropIan
12th February 09, 10:35 AM
Bullshit. There is a significant problem with Muslim immigrants refusing to integrate into society, so much so that Denmark specifically requires viewing of a video of gays and tits as a part of the immigration process.
.
Denmark =/= Holland

Phrost
12th February 09, 10:41 AM
Close enough.

EuropIan
12th February 09, 10:43 AM
Whatever, ya Canuck.

Craigypooh
12th February 09, 10:52 AM
So much for freedom of movement within the EU for EU citzens:



Banned Dutch MP held at Heathrow


http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/45471000/jpg/_45471560_wilders_hrow_pa.jpg Mr Wilders was questioned at Heathrow by immigration officials


A Dutch MP who called the Koran a "fascist book" is to be sent back to the Netherlands after attempting to defy a ban on entering the UK.
Freedom Party MP Geert Wilders was invited to show his controversial film - which links the Islamic holy book to terrorism - in the UK's House of Lords.
But Mr Wilders, who faces trial in his own country for inciting hatred, has been denied entry by the Home Office.
He is currently being questioned by immigration officials at Heathrow.
The Dutch Ambassador was also at Heathrow to make clear his government's opposition to the ban on Mr Wilders entering the UK.
'Free speech'
Mr Wilders' film Fitna caused outrage across the Muslim world when it was posted on the internet last year.
He was invited to the House of Lords by the UK Independence Party's Lord Pearson.
The peer said it was a "matter of free speech", telling the BBC: "We are going to show it anyway because we think MPs and peers should see this film."
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/shared/img/o.gif

He added: "The film isn't offensive unless you are a violent Islamist. Most of my Muslim friends think it's a very good film."
Fitna's opening scenes show a copy of the Koran followed by footage of the 9/11 attacks in the US and the bombings in Madrid in 2004 and London in 2005.
The Dutch prime minister has said the film serves "no purpose other than to offend".
Foreign Secretary David Miliband told the BBC's Hardtalk: "The home secretary made a decision on an individual case as she is required to do."
He added that the film contained "extreme anti-Muslim hate and we have very clear laws in this country".
Mr Miliband also said: "We have profound commitment to freedom of speech but there is no freedom to cry 'fire' in a crowded theatre and there is no freedom to stir up hate, religious and racial hatred, according to the laws of the land."
The Home Office said there was a blanket ban on Mr Wilders entering the UK under EU laws enabling member states to exclude someone whose presence could threaten public security.
"The government opposes extremism in all forms," it said in a statement, adding that it had tightened up rules on excluding those engaging in "unacceptable behaviour" in October.
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/shared/img/o.gifRECENT CASES
Jamaican reggae singer Bounty Killer (real name Rodney Pryce) allowed entry despite using controversial lyrics about homosexuals and gang culture
Muslim cleric Dr Yusuf al-Qaradawi refused entry in order to protect community cohesion. He has described suicide bombers as "martyrs" and homosexuality as "a disease"
Nation of Islam leader Louis Farrakhan barred on the grounds that his allegedly racist and anti-Semitic views could threaten public order
Martha Stewart and US rapper Snoop Dogg denied entry because of criminal convictions

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/img/v3/inline_dashed_line.gif

Who is barred from Britain? (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7695317.stm)
Profile: Geert Wilders (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7314636.stm)


The home secretary has the power to stop people entering the UK if she believes there is a threat to national security, public order or the safety of UK citizens, but she cannot exclude people simply because of their views.
Mr Wilders described the decision as "cowardly", saying: "It's incredible that an elected politician who was invited by one of your parliamentarians to a discussion with people who are against me, or in favour of me [was banned from the UK]."
Earlier this year, a Dutch court ordered prosecutors to put the MP on trial for inciting hatred and discrimination by making anti-Islamic statements.
Labour peer Lord Ahmed, who expressed his concerns to the parliamentary authorities about Mr Wilders' visit, told the BBC: "This man doesn't have any respect for law. He's doing this for publicity and he's seeking that and getting that."
He added: "If this man was allowed into this country it would certainly cause problems within communities around Britain."
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/shared/img/o.gif

The Muslim Council of Britain said Mr Wilders was "an open and relentless preacher of hate". Lib Dem home affairs spokesman Chris Huhne said: "Freedom of speech is our most precious freedom of all, because all the other freedoms depend on it. "But there is a line to be drawn even with freedom of speech, and that is where it is likely to incite violence or hatred against someone or some group."


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7885918.stm

Phrost
12th February 09, 11:07 AM
Beautiful.



Mr Miliband also said: "We have profound commitment to freedom of speech but there is no freedom to cry 'fire' in a crowded theatre and there is no freedom to stir up hate, religious and racial hatred, according to the laws of the land."

We have a profound commitment to freedom of speech, but there is no freedom to cry 'fire' in a crowded theater, no freedom to offend anyone's irrational stone age beliefs, and no freedom to upset any large group of individuals who are well known for murdering those who disagree with them.

Fucking cowards.

Virus
12th February 09, 03:56 PM
They don't even ask much. At most, pray five times a day. Fewer still ask for more.

You're right, they don't ask much, they demand that nobody mention what's actually in the Koran. That you don't criticize their medieval practices towards women. That people give them more respect in order to prevent a repeat of the carton riots. That toilets are built facing away from Mecca. That sexually segregated swimming pools be introduced. That nobody else can use their prayer rooms at university. That colleges structure timetables around prayer times. That women who escape their violent families to refuges should be handed back by the state. That Sharia law be introduced so women can be granted inheritance based on medieval jurisprudence.

Geert Wilders is not on trial for being a hypocrite. He's on trial for making a movie with Koranic verses in it and footage of things Muslims actually said and did. Before the film was even made a member of the Dutch government flew to the Middle East to grovel in Dhimmitude to Muslim rulers and apologize for the movie. Which he had no knowledge of the content.

The best and only defense people can come up with against criticism of Islam and the behavior of its adherents is "That's not the real Islam" and "Not all of them do that."

Cullion
12th February 09, 04:14 PM
Beautiful.



We have a profound commitment to freedom of speech, but there is no freedom to cry 'fire' in a crowded theater, no freedom to offend anyone's irrational stone age beliefs, and no freedom to upset any large group of individuals who are well known for murdering those who disagree with them.

Fucking cowards.

If it's any consolation, the Labour party is below 30% in recent opinion polls.

HappyOldGuy
12th February 09, 04:22 PM
If it's any consolation, the Labour party is below 30% in recent opinion polls.

You think the tories would behave differently on this issue?

(serious question)

AAAhmed46
12th February 09, 05:40 PM
Bullshit. There is a significant problem with Muslim immigrants refusing to integrate into society, so much so that Denmark specifically requires viewing of a video of gays and tits as a part of the immigration process.
Says who? Ultra right wing xenophobes like geert wilders?
What about other countries? Go look around the muslim community. Visit a mosque or something, watch the youth. Their very westernized. Don't believe everything you see in the news.

Ive lived my whole life as a muslim meeting many many many other muslims. Thats why i call bullshit when i read articles saying 'most muslims won't integrate'. Which is pure and utter bullshit, based not just on my own personal experiences but even the motives of the haters, geert is scared they will lose their 'dutch culture' well guess what, those high muslim birth rates also mean you will simply have very brown dutchmen and woman. MOst of the youth celebrate in the liberalism of dutch culture.



It's absolutely shameful that in the year 2009 we still have people accepting of this behavior. Laying on the floor mumbling to yourself or imaginary beings is normally cause for psychiatric treatment. Except, of course, when Religion is used as the excuse.
You may think it's stupid, but they have the right to do so, as long as they do it tucked away in the corner out of sight it shouldn't bother you. thats where they do it.

Cullion
12th February 09, 05:42 PM
You think the tories would behave differently on this issue?

(serious question)

Hmm..

Not the current front bench.

Truculent Sheep
12th February 09, 05:43 PM
Beautiful.

Yes, Miliband is an utter twat.



We have a profound commitment to freedom of speech, but there is no freedom to cry 'fire' in a crowded theater, no freedom to offend anyone's irrational stone age beliefs, and no freedom to upset any large group of individuals who are well known for murdering those who disagree with them.

Fucking cowards.

The cinema/theatre argument is a strawman - shouting 'fire' is being a nuisance, not expressing one's right to free expression. Noted Stalinist shit-bag George Galloway used this argument many time before - that's all you need to know. You're not supposed to munch your popcorn loudly either, but that's hardly an argument against popcorn.

On the other hand, we have an inalienable right to our views, and others do not have an inalienable right to not be offended.

So yes, you're right. Cowards.

AAAhmed46
12th February 09, 05:44 PM
You're right, they don't ask much, they demand that nobody mention what's actually in the Koran. That you don't criticize their medieval practices towards women. That people give them more respect in order to prevent a repeat of the carton riots. That toilets are built facing away from Mecca. That sexually segregated swimming pools be introduced. That nobody else can use their prayer rooms at university. That colleges structure timetables around prayer times. That women who escape their violent families to refuges should be handed back by the state. That Sharia law be introduced so women can be granted inheritance based on medieval jurisprudence.

Geert Wilders is not on trial for being a hypocrite. He's on trial for making a movie with Koranic verses in it and footage of things Muslims actually said and did. Before the film was even made a member of the Dutch government flew to the Middle East to grovel in Dhimmitude to Muslim rulers and apologize for the movie. Which he had no knowledge of the content.

The best and only defense people can come up with against criticism of Islam and the behavior of its adherents is "That's not the real Islam" and "Not all of them do that."


So have you actually read the quran? Trying to show it to sway politicians to create policies that marginalize muslims. Why else would he want to show it to them? I mean seriously?

Have you read the writings of some of these anti-islamic writers? Now compare it to Goebbels writings during Nazi germany. Same things are said. They have the same damn goals.

And who says other people can't use prayer rooms? Since the 80's muslims in college campuses have.

People read one or two news stories of some douches and think they won't let them pray.

In my college, muslims pray in the multi-faith prayer room, also used by christians and jews on campus. No fuss there.

And we had a thread on "Fitna'' it's actually pretty pathetic, the movie. Out of context versus of the quran, nothing quoted in it's totality.

AAAhmed46
12th February 09, 05:46 PM
Beautiful.



We have a profound commitment to freedom of speech, but there is no freedom to cry 'fire' in a crowded theater, no freedom to offend anyone's irrational stone age beliefs, and no freedom to upset any large group of individuals who are well known for murdering those who disagree with them.

Fucking cowards.


So where was your outrage when Geert wanted to ban free speech?

It didn't even make it to sociocide. Yet it does in reverse.

AAAhmed46
12th February 09, 05:59 PM
Guys honestly want to know why i spend so much time arguing this?

Because i honestly see rights being stripped away slowly again and again.


As a muslim, i know im not alone in this view, because ive seen others express the same fear.


There was a time where Geert's claims would have been dismissed as fringe and irrelevant, a guy trying to get attention. There would be no controversy.

But he's among many who more or less want mass deportation.

Can you not see this? How can anyone not see that? The potential of that. You think muslims are upset because of free speech? They only thing about it that upsets them is that people cry 'freespeech' in efforts to mount a propoganda campagn.

When bnai brith convinces universities to ban Norman finklestien from speaking, where is this outrage for freedom of speech? I don't see it. He doesn't even call for the distruction of the state, just uses polemical language on it.

But people cry hard for freedom of expression when something like this happens.

There IS a double standard, this is newsworthey, while bnai brith's censorship isn't.

HappyOldGuy
12th February 09, 06:11 PM
Y'all need a european civil liberties union. Cullion can be the first card carrying ECLU member.

Cullion
12th February 09, 06:27 PM
I'd join a British one, but the equivalent we have is hopelessly compromised and staffed with members of the establishment. It's about as impartial as your ACLU.

danno
12th February 09, 06:30 PM
in my day-to-day life, in this part of the world, the vilification of muslims and public racism towards arabs in general is more of a concern to me than offenses caused to any religious group.

there, i said it.

HappyOldGuy
12th February 09, 06:32 PM
Our ACLU is pretty much a perfect model of impartiality. Whether you agree with their ideological position or not, it is ridiculously consistent.

http://stjoenews.net/news/2009/jan/10/westboro-church-sues-city-over-funeral-ordinance/?local

AAAhmed46
12th February 09, 06:32 PM
And thats the key, public racism, being openly accepted. how can that not be concerning?

Zendetta
12th February 09, 06:34 PM
It IS concerning. It should NOT be banned.

Cullion
12th February 09, 06:47 PM
Can you not see this? How can anyone not see that? The potential of that.

Yes, most people do, and sadly for you, it's because many of them would quietly like that to happen. They won't feel too bad about it, because had they been given a vote on it back in the 60s or 70s, the muslim communities in countries like the UK would be limited to tiny numbers of merchants and other educated middle class professionals, and people like Abu Hamza would be immediately deported if found in the country, never mind being allowed to live on a generous welfare for decades.

Can I tell the difference between Abu Hamza and the softly spoken polite guy whose lived in the same town for 40 years running a grocers and who supports Pakistan when the cricket is on TV? yes of course, but what I just told you is the unspoken view of many, many many westerners in Europe. It's rarely said out loud in the UK because despite never being given a vote on this immigration policy, you will almost certainly be called a racist and arrested for saying it in public.


You think muslims are upset because of free speech?

When bnai brith convinces universities to ban Norman finklestien from speaking, where is this outrage for freedom of speech? I don't see it. He doesn't even call for the distruction of the state, just uses polemical language on it.

But people cry hard for freedom of expression when something like this happens.

There IS a double standard, this is newsworthey, while bnai brith's censorship isn't.


No, as you say, most aren't. They are frustrated by the bias in most western media you point out and are sickened that the fanatics have been given the loudest voice.

The thing is muslims have a cultural PR problem compared to Jews. Muslims who strictly adhere to their religion cannot socialise with the rest of us in the pub. Jews can. Some Jewish parents may disapprove of their children dating or marrying non-Jews, but there are no news reports of Jewish 'honour killings' in such circumstances. I can't find a single one in any national british newspaper.

I know lots of muslims don't do this either, but consider this..

When Israel invaded Gaza it's a trivial matter for me to find articles written by Jews (some in Israeli newspapers) condemning it, I even posted a youtube of a long and eloquent speach by a Jewish member of the House of Commons talking about his own familly's commitment to Israel who was condeming it.

That's what muslims like yourself need to do when bad muslims commit an atrocity.

Turning the tide of prejudice can only be done by showing, over and over again, that more muslims are like this:-

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2006/07/soldier020706_186x146.jpg

Than this:-

http://www.moonbattery.com/archives/Mohammed-Mostafa_Abu-Hamza.jpg

Of course, I'm not debating ethics or rights now, I'm talking about practical PR.

AAAhmed46
12th February 09, 06:50 PM
It IS concerning. It should NOT be banned.

No, it shouldn't be banned, and i agree on this point.

But at the same time, the news seriously needs to talk more about Wilders past in the same articles so the layman knows his agenda.

Cullion
12th February 09, 06:50 PM
Our ACLU is pretty much a perfect model of impartiality. Whether you agree with their ideological position or not, it is ridiculously consistent.

http://stjoenews.net/news/2009/jan/10/westboro-church-sues-city-over-funeral-ordinance/?local

Here's another view of the ACLU:-

http://www.stoptheaclu.com/archives/2005/09/23/how-the-aclu-censors-religious-expression/

AAAhmed46
12th February 09, 06:53 PM
Yes, most people do, and sadly for you, it's because many of them would quietly like that to happen. They won't feel too bad about it, because had they been given a vote on it back in the 60s or 70s, the muslim communities in countries like the UK would be limited to tiny numbers of merchants and other educated middle class professionals, and people like Abu Hamza would be immediately deported if found in the country, never mind being allowed to live on a generous welfare for decades.

Can I tell the difference between Abu Hamza and the softly spoken polite guy whose lived in the same town for 40 years running a grocers and who supports Pakistan when the cricket is on TV? yes of course, but what I just told you is the unspoken view of many, many many westerners in Europe. It's rarely said out loud in the UK because despite never being given a vote on this immigration policy, you will almost certainly be called a racist and arrested for saying it in public.



No, as you say, most aren't. They are frustrated by the bias in most western media you point out and are sickened that the fanatics have been given the loudest voice.

The thing is muslims have a cultural PR problem compared to Jews. Muslims who strictly adhere to their religion cannot socialise with the rest of us in the pub. Jews can. Some Jewish parents may disapprove of their children dating or marrying non-Jews, but there are no news reports of Jewish 'honour killings' in such circumstances. I can't find a single one in any national british newspaper.

I know lots of muslims don't do this either, but consider this..

When Israel invaded Gaza it's a trivial matter for me to find articles written by Jews (some in Israeli newspapers) condemning it, I even posted a youtube of a long and eloquent speach by a Jewish member of the House of Commons talking about his own familly's commitment to Israel who was condeming it.

That's what muslims like yourself need to do when bad muslims commit an atrocity.

Turning the tide of prejudice can only be done by showing, over and over again, that more muslims are like this:-

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2006/07/soldier020706_186x146.jpg

Than this:-

http://www.moonbattery.com/archives/Mohammed-Mostafa_Abu-Hamza.jpg

Of course, I'm not debating ethics or rights now, I'm talking about practical PR.


Unfortunatly, jews can come together in a group, but muslims can't. Why, i have no idea. They just fail at any attempt to organize. Some think it's the sunni shia split, progressive vs conservative, but i doubt it to be honest, because ive talked to jews and know there so and so may dislike so and so or the conservative jew doesn't consider the progressive jew a real jew.

yet they were able to come together and organize properly, have good PR.




Lets also not forget though, they probably learned to have good PR after hitler tried to wipe them out. Probably would force a community to come together more.

AAAhmed46
12th February 09, 06:54 PM
Is abut hamza the dude with the hook hand?

He's like a real life bond villian.

AAAhmed46
12th February 09, 07:01 PM
*James bond is strapped to a chair, a strange device on his head*

Abu Hamza: This is the end for you bond PRAISE ALLAH!

Bond: Please, give me a martini before i die

Abu Hamza: Infidel!!!! Alchohol is forbidden. Rot and die!

*Bond taps his toe, rockets show up under his shoes and he flies out*

Yeah it was lame. But Abu hamza is SOOO a bond villian.

Cullion
12th February 09, 07:02 PM
Lets also not forget though, they probably learned to have good PR after hitler tried to wipe them out. Probably would force a community to come together more.

Jews have been forced to live without a Jewish homeland for 2000 years. Hitler was the most recent, and most technologically advanced and organised attempt to murder or deport Jews out of a 'western' country en masse, but hardly the first.

HappyOldGuy
12th February 09, 07:02 PM
Here's another view of the ACLU:-

http://www.stoptheaclu.com/archives/2005/09/23/how-the-aclu-censors-religious-expression/

There is a difference between disagreeing with their positions and claiming that they compromise them. The ACLU has a clearly stated belief that the 1st amendment prohibits religious displays in government venues. I don't agree with the ACLU's position on everything. But the point is that their positions on those issues are crystal clear and they don't care who, what, where, or why. If the cops arrest someone for carrying a sign that says 'bomb the aclu', they will defend him.

Also, why are you quoting whiny religious nutbags? I didn't think you swung that way?

Cullion
12th February 09, 07:04 PM
Yeah it was lame. But Abu hamza is SOOO a bond villian.

Nah. Bin Laden is a Bond villain (CIA trained!). Abu Hamza is a fat blowhard on welfare who married a white chick and has a daughter who works as a stripper.

AAAhmed46
12th February 09, 07:04 PM
Jews have been forced to live without a Jewish homeland for 2000 years. Hitler was the most recent, and most technologically advanced and organised attempt to murder or deport Jews out of a 'western' country en masse, but hardly the first.

Yep, and living for so long without a homeland probably made them very skilled in the art of camouflage and integration.

AAAhmed46
12th February 09, 07:04 PM
Nah. Bin Laden is a Bond villain (CIA trained!). Abu Hamza is a fat blowhard on welfare who married a white chick and has a daughter who works as a stripper.
Bin laden may have had CIA training.

But Hamza has a hook for his hand.

Cullion
12th February 09, 07:07 PM
There is a difference between disagreeing with their positions and claiming that they compromise them. The ACLU has a clearly stated belief that the 1st amendment prohibits religious displays in government venues.

That's what I mean by biased.


But the point is that their positions on those issues are crystal clear and they don't care who, what, where, or why. If the cops arrest someone for carrying a sign that says 'bomb the aclu', they will defend him.

Also, why are you quoting whiny religious nutbags? I didn't think you swung that way?

Because whiny religious nutbags who want a bible quote in their town courthouse or school should be allowed to.

HappyOldGuy
12th February 09, 07:09 PM
Because whiny religious nutbags who want a bible quote in their town courthouse or school should be allowed to.

On the public nickel? I'm surprised at you!

Cullion
12th February 09, 07:09 PM
Yep, and living for so long without a homeland probably made them very skilled in the art of camouflage and integration.

Integrating into western societies is extremely easy unless we're talking about a Hitlerian society where only people with blonde hair, blue eyes and blood group A are considered 'pure'. Because there are fewer rules to follow.

Cullion
12th February 09, 07:13 PM
On the public nickel? I'm surprised at you!

You really think the plaques cost that much? You really think that in some small bible belt town much of the tax money comes from people who disapprove of excerpts from the bible being shown in a public place?

AAAhmed46
12th February 09, 07:14 PM
Integrating into western societies is extremely easy unless we're talking about a Hitlerian society where only people with blonde hair, blue eyes and blood group A are considered 'pure'. Because there are fewer rules to follow.

Yes.

Jews have been able to put forward their issues and concerns and desires in a manner without annoying anyone. That probably has alot to do with their history, i think they learned not to piss off the majority in wherever they live.

Muslims however, seem to attract a great deal of attention when talking about thair issues, as you yourself stated. I think only now muslims are realizing that maybe they should keep their mouths shut more and more in this post danish cartoon era.
I myself feel an unspoken sense of embarassment from that little fiasco from lots of Muslims, even those that supported the outcry.

HappyOldGuy
12th February 09, 07:22 PM
You really think the plaques cost that much? You really think that in some small bible belt town much of the tax money comes from people who disapprove of excerpts from the bible being shown in a public place?

I'm actually pretty ambivalent on the public display question, but your douchebag was mostly quoting examples of religious institutions that are receiving government money to provide services and then engaging in bigoted behavior against their employees or customers who don't necessarily share their faith. They can fuck the hell off.

Cullion
12th February 09, 07:27 PM
Then why not campaign to get the federal budget under control? Campaigning to prevent a Catholic organisation from promulgating Catholic ideals is kind of nutty definition of 'civil liberties', unless you think it's the Catholicism that's the problem rather than the simple matter of federal funding.

Are you suggesting the army should be forbidden from, uh, trying to persuade people to join?

HappyOldGuy
12th February 09, 07:30 PM
Then why not campaign to get the federal budget under control? Campaigning to prevent a Catholic organisation from promulgating Catholic ideals is kind of nutty definition of 'civil liberties', unless you think it's the Catholicism that's the problem rather than the simple matter of federal funding.

Are you suggesting the army should be forbidden from, uh, trying to persuade people to join?

Private organizations that receive public funding have to abide by the same rules as everybody else. If the rules are inconsistent with their beliefs, they can say no to the government money.

Cullion
12th February 09, 07:32 PM
Private organizations that receive public funding have to abide by the same rules as everybody else. If the rules are inconsistent with their beliefs, they can say no to the government money.

Sure, but why do 'the rules' have to say 'you cannot promote your religion with tax money given to your religious organisation?'

What civil liberty is being violated?

Cullion
12th February 09, 07:33 PM
Of course, it's all a trap to force you into accepting fiscally conservative libertarianism. I'm one post away from asking you why any tax money should be given to any cause that some taxpayers may disagree with.

I guess that's federal funding withdrawn from abortion programmes, sex education, much of your foreign policy, the teaching of evolution, uh.. almost everything your government does.

Oops.

Go on, quote the constitution at me. I dare you. lolz.

HappyOldGuy
12th February 09, 07:35 PM
Sure, but why do 'the rules' have to say 'you cannot promote your religion with tax money given to your religious organisation?'

What civil liberty is being violated?
The establishment clause of the first amendment, 'Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion.' They are not allowed to receive money to prosletyze. Only to provide non religious services.

There is no libertarian trap here. The founding documents of our state say that this specific thing is something we don't do. They don't say that about spending in general.

Cullion
12th February 09, 07:37 PM
The establishment clause of the first amendment, 'Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion.' They are not allowed to receive money to prosletyze. Only to provide non religious services.

Where does the ACLU find in that provision that a Catholic charity must provide abortion and contraception services in their health packages to their staff?

HappyOldGuy
12th February 09, 07:39 PM
Where does the ACLU find in that provision that a Catholic charity must provide abortion and contraception services in their health packages to their staff?

ask them

http://www.aclu.org/FilesPDFs/ccs_amicus.pdf

Virus
12th February 09, 09:54 PM
Jews have been forced to live without a Jewish homeland for 2000 years. Hitler was the most recent, and most technologically advanced and organised attempt to murder or deport Jews out of a 'western' country en masse, but hardly the first.

That honor is now passed to Muslims who widely circulate and believe in The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, that Jews control the world media, the American government, that they organized 9/11 and are behind all wars. Such views are now endemic in the middle-east and openly broadcast on TV, along with idiot clerics talking about how rape in marriage is OK. Get onto youtube and look up MEMRI and Palestinian Media Watch and you'll be dumbfounded that people actually brodacast such things.

Of course Muslim apologists always have the convenient excuse that such things aren't the real Islam. Which is like saying wrist-locks aren't the real aikido.

AAAhmed46
13th February 09, 01:22 AM
That honor is now passed to Muslims who widely circulate and believe in The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, that Jews control the world media, the American government, that they organized 9/11 and are behind all wars. Such views are now endemic in the middle-east and openly broadcast on TV, along with idiot clerics talking about how rape in marriage is OK. Get onto youtube and look up MEMRI and Palestinian Media Watch and you'll be dumbfounded that people actually brodacast such things.

Of course Muslim apologists always have the convenient excuse that such things aren't the real Islam. Which is like saying wrist-locks aren't the real aikido.


And many right wing secularists believe that Muslims are secretly trying to take over Europe and always marry 4 wives to have higher birth rates.
Lots of books published claiming this bullshit.


And what the hell does this have to do with Islam? Last i checked there are non-muslims who believe this bullshit as well(the whole jew control thing). So when it 'isn't the real islam' it isn't islam at all, not extremist, not moderate.

Your primary arguement is that a large majority of muslims are really extremists and that islam is fundamentally extreme.

Okay then. But if thats the case, then many muslims would accept and rejoice in the fact that the terrorists were muslim instead of making conspiracy theories.

The fact they do make conspiracy theories shows a desire to distance themselves from it, and acknowledgement that it's horrible.

Why are the biggest 9/11 conspiracy theorists all white non-muslim guys? Go search on 9/11 conspiracy theories and theorists and guess what, most of the biggest speakers are a bunch of non-muslim white males.


As for control of the media, i think your not listening carefully, because most are talking about AIPAC(or whatever it's spelled)


Infact, even non-muslims seem to mix up 'jew' is 'isreal' with isreali with the race and the religion. It's damn confusing.



Even white people complain about the power of lobby groups.

http://video.google.ca/videosearch?q=Peace%2C+Propaganda%2C+and+The+Promi sed+Land&hl=en&emb=0&aq=-1&oq=#



"Palistinian media watch" look at the name, look at the soarce. Of course they will demonize islam. THe first people to demonize islam were pro-isreal right win organizations, even before 9/11. IT's a big thing for them, stick to the whole 'hey their blowing themselves up for 72 virgins, you can't deal with them"


Ill get to Memri shortly.


So, yes, lots of retarded conspiracy theorists among muslims, but lots of non-muslims believe the same stupid shit. Infact, saying muslims believe in conspiracies that say that they did NOT do 9/11 shows an acknowledgement of it's horribleness.

If most muslims are extreme and support terrorism and hate and want to kill all non-muslims, then why create a conspiracy theory to absolve themselves from blame?


Why were there candlelight vigils in tehran when 9/11 happened?

AAAhmed46
13th February 09, 01:31 AM
From norman finklestien's website:

How MEMRI presents itself

[From the MEMRI website:]

The Middle East Media Research Institute (MEMRI) explores the Middle East through the region's media. MEMRI bridges the language gap which exists between the West and the Middle East, providing timely translations of Arabic, Persian, and Turkish media, as well as original analysis of political, ideological, intellectual, social, cultural, and religious trends in the Middle East. Founded in February 1998 to inform the debate over U.S. policy in the Middle East, MEMRI is an independent, nonpartisan, nonprofit, 501 (c)3 organization.
The truth about MEMRI

MEMRI is a main arm of Israeli propaganda. Although widely used in the mainstream media as a source of information on the Arab world, it is as trustworthy as Julius Streicher's Der Sturmer was on the Jewish world.

The evidence

MEMRI recently posted what it alleged was an interview I did with Lebanese television on the Nazi holocaust. The MEMRI posting was designed to prove that I was a Holocaust denier. Below I juxtapose the MEMRI version of my interview (both the actual broadcast version as well as the transcript it prepared) against what I actually said in the interview.

Footnotes

1. Streicher was sentenced to death at Nuremberg.

2. "When the true history of this era is written...the dispatches of MEMRI will be copiously represented in every true scholar's footnotes" - Martin Peretz, Editor and Publisher, The New Republic. (Another of Peretz's notable predictions back in 1984 was that Joan Peters's From Time Immemorial "will change the mind of our generation. If understood, it could affect the history of the future.")


.................................................. .................................................. ..........

MEMRI tried to make him look like a holocaust denier. If you'v ever met the man, you would know he has VERY strong feelings about the holocaust, and honours the memory of his parents.

AAAhmed46
13th February 09, 01:32 AM
Of course Muslim apologists always have the convenient excuse that such things aren't the real Islam. Which is like saying wrist-locks aren't the real aikido.

Tell me why me asking you question whether you have any muslim friends is irrelevant?

Why is it irrelevant?

Why are questions about your experiences with them irrelevant?

Ive spent 23 years as a muslim living in the community living and meeting muslims of different countries and talking to them. So in essense, i can speak from a good position.

Danno can, because he's met and mingles with so many. Shawarma read the quran all the way through, as well as seeing and knowing many muslims(he will talk about negative cultural trends among them as well)

Ive found the media and news reports and even polls are very different from my own personal expereinces.

Turkey has lots of gay male singers. Some openly gay.

Not talked about in the media, and rarely researched.

For instance, fact is most muslim woman do not wear a headscarf, yet images in muslim countries show lots of them doing it.

The news calls pakistan an 'islamic regime' yet ive never seen so many transsexuals in my life until i saw pakistan. Openly gay men and woman, streets filled with trannies.

Popular night clubs and bars in so called muslim countries.

But none of this is scene in the media.


I myself saw it. I myself met with people. Not talked about. Not reported. Rarely researched(i only read one paper in my college in Anthropology about hijra culture in india an pakistan, as well as homosexuality in india and pakistan.
And one anthropolology paper about strong influences of woman in muslim nigeria.




So....this is my arguement to the relevants of knowing muslims. And yes, ive had bad experieneces too. not in what your thinking though.

AAAhmed46
13th February 09, 01:55 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_4Wo365e-w&sdig=1

LinkTV is a collection of middle east news soarces on political events in the middle east. Takes views from all sorts of soarces in the middle east.

While it clearly has it's bias, does it look as nutty as you've been told it is(middle eastern news)

Cullion
13th February 09, 02:47 AM
that Jews control the world media, the American government

Israeli politicians haven't helped by braggung about exactly that.


I want to tell you something very clear,
don't worry about American pressure on Israel, we, the Jewish
people control America, and the Americans know it.



Get onto youtube and look up MEMRI and Palestinian Media Watch and you'll be dumbfounded that people actually brodacast such things.

I'm well aware that people believe such things



Of course Muslim apologists always have the convenient excuse that such things aren't the real Islam. Which is like saying wrist-locks aren't the real aikido.

It's more like saying that Billy Graham isn't responsible for the Oaklahoma bombing.

Cullion
13th February 09, 02:50 AM
ask them

http://www.aclu.org/FilesPDFs/ccs_amicus.pdf

tldr

I'll ask again, whose civil liberties are being protected by forcing catholic charities to provide abortion services in their staff healthcare pacakages ?

Truculent Sheep
13th February 09, 05:20 AM
tldr

I'll ask again, whose civil liberties are being protected by forcing catholic charities to provide abortion services in their staff healthcare pacakages ?

NEWSFLASH: The ACLU cherry-picks causes to fight for, whilst wallowing in intense hypocrisy, just like all other biased advocacy groups! Film at 11.

Truculent Sheep
13th February 09, 05:25 AM
[Sorry posted this in wrong thread. Oh Gods of the Administratum! Please delete...]